home

Demographics

I am watching Hardball and the total nonsense is amazing. They are discussing how the white working class issue disappeared. Specifically, Chris Matthews, with the once respected Chuck Todd nodding vigorously, said Pennsylvania was the past and North Carolina was the future on race relations. This is simply counterfactual. Let's review the data.

In Pennsylvania, Clinton won whites 18-29 (52-48), 30-44 (58-42), 45-59 (63-37), 60+ (68-32). In North Carolina, whites 18-29, just 8% of the vote, went for Obama 57-41. But whites 30-44 went for Clinton (52-45), 45-59 (64-33), 60+ (69-29).

Barack Obama is almost certain to be the nominee, and Tweety is ebulliant about his guy looking like the nominee. But let's stick to the facts please. On the demographics, nothing got better for Obama. The difference between North Carolina and Pennsylvania is there are a lot more African American voters in North Carolina. She never had a chance to win it. Ever.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only.

Comments now closed.

< Hillary Picks Up N.C. Superdelegate, Will Stay Until There's a Nominee | Why Did Obama Do Worse in N.C. Than Virginia? >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    From Matthews one expects this (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:28:50 PM EST
    but typically Todd does his homework. Too bad.

    I can tell you how it dissapeared. (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:36:37 PM EST
    Right into McCain's back pocket.

    I can't tell you how we get it back.

    Parent

    Washington Post reporter (none / 0) (#245)
    by Josey on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:46:11 PM EST
    wants feedback from Dems who won't vote for Obama.

    williamsk@washpost.com


    Parent

    Matthews. (none / 0) (#275)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:07:40 PM EST
    Redstate just put up an article that tips Matthews hand about his guest list--particularly Michelle Bernard's role as an unidentified conservative who happens to run a Lynn Cheney foundation.  Something about how much of a sucker the ProObama netroots have been played for.

    Parent
    Well, Netroots (none / 0) (#284)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:11:35 PM EST
    using this to diminish Obama's loss.  

    Parent
    They want Obama v. McCain (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:29:32 PM EST
    so they can see the old warmonger as President.

    They will never give HRC a fair shake. They do not want her to be the nominee.

    Thanks for showing that your feet are firmly on the ground, however. :-)

    Oh, yeah. The Village Punditry Loves Them A Killer (3.00 / 2) (#68)
    by tokin librul on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:53:29 PM EST
    a real one. They're all desperate for a brutally loving father to please...
    McStain, for the likes of Matthews, et al, is the living embodiment of a TV patriot's wet-dream, the fell off-spring of the horrific union of Ronald Reagan adn Jlohn Wayne: Ron-jon McWayne.

    The real plus in all this for these fatuous 4-fs is that Bombin' Johnnie's actually pulled the trigger (though it must be said, until they dragged him up from certain drowning in the wreck of his A-4, Bombin' John had never looked into the eyes of any of those he was so assiduously slaughtering).

    Parent

    Questions (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by stevenb on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:30:29 PM EST
    Questions surround Obama's candidacy:

    http://questionbarackobama.blogspot.com

    To bad no one wants answers.

    I'm Convinced (none / 0) (#142)
    by flashman on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:10:12 PM EST
    That Roger Simon is a dumb toad-man.

    Parent
    a little bit of mischevious fun! (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:32:10 PM EST
    if the vote had been conducted as if it were an winner take all electoral college she'd likely end up with 312 v Obama's 226.

     

    If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:35:50 PM EST
    we'd all have merry primary.

    Parent
    I'd prefer a Merry November. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:37:40 PM EST
    There's numerical defeat staring you in tha face.

    Parent
    I agree (1.00 / 0) (#22)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:40:57 PM EST
    that Obama will have an awful hard go at it now that Wright is in play and that Hillary would be the better GE candidate.

    Still, it's just plain embarassing to keep grasping for new metrics as old ones pass away.  She lost or will soon lose - fair and square.  We should rally around the nominee.

    Parent

    Fair and square? (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:43:11 PM EST
    Without FL and MI voters having their say? Nonsense.

    Parent
    I'm not wonky enough to work the calculators, so (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:48:04 PM EST
    answer me this:

    Would Hillary be ahead in delegates or popular vote if both MI and FL were included as is?

    Parent

    I think she would be within 14 (5.00 / 5) (#57)
    by bjorn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:51:00 PM EST
    delegates, and after WV and KY she would be ahead, so yes, it would have changed everything had those states counted.  It would have had a measurable impact on his momentum after those states primaries, imo.

    Parent
    He wasn't on the ballot in MI (1.00 / 0) (#74)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:54:24 PM EST
    How close she'd be if both had actually campaigned an been on the ballot in all states is an open question.

    She agreed to these rules until she decided that she didn't.

    Parent

    The RULES allow for a revote (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by bjorn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:56:41 PM EST
    that is what you keep leaving out.  And by the way, if you read the pledge all she agreed to was not to campaign. She did not agree the votes would never count.

    Parent
    I keep leaving out? (1.00 / 0) (#111)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:03:34 PM EST
    Show me anothe rcomment where I left it out.

    I fully supported a re-vote.  Tough for a good portion of the time, Hillary Clinton opposed one.  In fact back in the early part of thsi year I used to find it curious how most of the Hillary supporters on the blogsphere ignored the suggestion.

    Parent

    Chorus: he asked to have his name (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:01:12 PM EST
    taken off the ballot in MI.  He did campaign in FL.

    Parent
    Wrong wrong wrong (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by Trickster on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:03:20 PM EST
    Clinton fully honored every agreement she entered into regarding the campaign.  She NEVER agreed that the Michigan and Florida delegations should not be seated, (nor did any other candidate, by the way, even to this day).

    Parent
    IIRC, Hillary was ahead in the popular vote (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Joelarama on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:54:04 PM EST
    before last night if you counted Michigan and Florida.  The delegates are uncertain, I believe, because Florida and Michigan would have to apportion them.

    As I understand it, the argument about Florida and Michigan is all about the popular vote.  It's unclear to me if WV and KY, etc., could make up for Hillary's lost ground in NC.

    I think both states need to be seated and counted, and the decision must be made pronto.  

    Otherwise, we'll lose any chance in both states, because Obama slow-walked and blocked the revotes.

    Parent

    Not quite (none / 0) (#273)
    by IzikLA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:06:19 PM EST
    But she would be very close, and the whole narrative that was built against her would not have been in the media every day of this campaign.  And once these last 6 contests were done, they would probably be about even, thus ensuring that the SD's could just make decisions based on their own electability assessments rather than the media calling this whole thing for us.

    Parent
    I'm not grasping (5.00 / 5) (#31)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:45:08 PM EST
    I'm pointing out that obama has riden a series of close seconds and provinicial blowouts to the nomination.

    A Beat tester for a video game would get a pay raise for pointing out the system flaw--not the chairmanship of the company.

    Break this electoral architecture!

    Parent

    yes please :) (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:49:36 PM EST
    Winner take all Republican style, no supers, wrap the next one up on Super Tuesday.

    Parent
    Isn't that counter to... (1.00 / 0) (#81)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:55:58 PM EST
    ...Clinton's current "all voters must have their say" position?

    Parent
    Don't be absurd (5.00 / 0) (#134)
    by Trickster on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:08:45 PM EST
    Isn't that counter to... (none / 0) (#81)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:55:58 PM EST

    ...Clinton's current "all voters must have their say" position?

    You couldn't have spent two seconds thinking this through.  No one is taking the utterly ridiculous position that it's wrong for the early states to settle the nomination by near-acclamation.  That's all for the best; everybody recognizes that.

    Clinton's position is that you can't go all the way through the roster of states, and at the end when everybody else has voted and the outcome remains razor-edge close, intentionally tell two states that their voters and their voters alone will not be allowed to vote.

    Parent

    Not her positon at all (none / 0) (#225)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:37:52 PM EST
    She has been arguing in recent weeks that we need to finish the primary calendar to give every voter a voice.

    That does run counter to winner take all.

     

    Parent

    I'm not a Clinton supporter (none / 0) (#102)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:00:28 PM EST
    Might seem like but i'm not.

    Parent
    The point remains - winner take all is counter to "everybody must be heard".

    Parent
    After this? (none / 0) (#113)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:03:55 PM EST
    Try undoing this system.

    His win guarantees the power in charge will now manipulate this for their own purpose for decades.

    Mark my words.

    Trying to renegotiate this sytstem will be as fruitless as Hillary trying to get a win in NC.  :)

    Parent

    Ugh (1.00 / 0) (#126)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:07:08 PM EST
    I don't see any basis for that assertion other than your obvious distaste for the guy.  

    Parent
    nah (none / 0) (#187)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:27:01 PM EST
    It's got to have all sorts of interesting characters salivating about the means of manipulation.

    Parent
    As BTD (none / 0) (#262)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:54:55 PM EST
    points out.....demographics.

    I could cook up a similar plan right now, after watching this.

    Parent

    Not fair and square (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by bjorn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:46:06 PM EST
    but by the rules in place that favored him (see Donna Brazile)...I am sorry, I will vote for him and in time even get excited, but he only has himself to blame for not letting MI and FL revote...it will never be fair and square in my mind.

    Parent
    New metrics? (5.00 / 6) (#43)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:47:55 PM EST
    We'd like a victory in November.

    Obama can't deliver, IMO.

    Were some of you sleeping in 2000 and 2004, or just too young to know what was going on?

    Parent

    Take the nomination away from Obama (2.00 / 1) (#65)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:52:50 PM EST
    while he has a pledged delegate and popular vote lead and there will be hell to pay with AA's and to a lesser extent, the youth vote.

    It will be the Democratic Party itself that will be impotent for years in that situation.

    Yes, voters made a bad call.  Yes, Obama is wanting too much too soon.  But Obama won and that's the hand that has to be played.

    Parent

    What. (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:56:21 PM EST
    About.

    Florida.

    And.

    Michigan?

    [cricket cricket cricket]


    Parent

    Puerto Rico (none / 0) (#119)
    by DJ on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:05:54 PM EST
    has 55 delegates and they have been allowed to vote as a block.

    Parent
    Do you really think (5.00 / 6) (#87)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:57:01 PM EST
    that the Democratic party is going to be potent because they pandered solely to the African American community and the fickle youth vote? They're losing everyone else by this move and also proving they're so spineless that they'll cave as soon as someone throws a tantrum. Sorry but I don't want to be a member of a party that's held hostage by Those Who Yell Loudest. No amount of liberal guilt or name calling's going to win me back.

    Parent
    Meh, (1.00 / 1) (#92)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:58:55 PM EST
    I would rather not have grandchildren being shot at in Iraq.

    Parent
    well you will (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by DJ on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:06:37 PM EST
    if McCain wins

    GO HILLARY

    Parent

    As of last night, (1.00 / 1) (#171)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:23:22 PM EST
    there is no plausible, non-Obama meltdown, scenario for Clinton to win the nomination.

    Check please.

    Parent

    Before the check can I order (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:31:11 PM EST
    One Obama meltdown special please? With an order of ex-friends on the side. ;)

    Parent
    Does that come (5.00 / 2) (#234)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:40:45 PM EST
    with or without the waffles?

    Parent
    Lol (none / 0) (#248)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:47:14 PM EST
    :)

    Parent
    Sarissa...even when obama followers have a (none / 0) (#246)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:46:28 PM EST
    win under their belt, they still have to act like d!cks.

    Parent
    This is the stupidest reason (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:11:13 PM EST
    to vote for Obama.

    Just sayin'.

    Parent

    Obama hasn't won yet. (5.00 / 0) (#228)
    by ahazydelirium on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:38:29 PM EST
    Also, let's be a bit realistic here about the AA vote. African-Americans WILL NOT vote for McCain. Some of them might sit out, but a large block will still vote Democratic.

    But I turn your thought back to you: what about working class voters? Can Democrats win without them? They are far more likely to vote McCain; they'll likely break Republican.

    It's absurd to play this game: Vote Obama or the African American community will be angry; Vote Hillary or the working class voters are gone.

    Is this productive AT ALL?

    Parent

    Obama has to cross the finish line (5.00 / 1) (#276)
    by Ellie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:07:40 PM EST
    Bring it on.

    He can't keep pausing and doing victory dances, only to have HRC pass him again.

    Superdeez aren't in his pocket, as his whispering astro-trolls keep feeding the rumor mill.

    Let him call a press conference and put all of them on the record tomorrow, standing with Dem leadership, and declare the nomination race over.

    Can't do it? Then voters, not redoing the Math and the Roolz. Incidentally, explaining why Democratic arcana justifies purging millions of voters off the books is pure Bush League.

    Explain that for the media and see how Obama's support holds.

    Parent

    This may or may not be true (1.00 / 1) (#101)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:59:53 PM EST
    But frankly we have no evidence that our party ever had a stronger nominee.

    Obama's got a tough road ahead.  So would Hillary if she were the nominee.  I guarantee you the GOP was fully prepared to use her gender against her effectively.

    If we beleive the things we espouse as progressives, time to stand against glass ceilings of any kind.
     

    Parent

    Blech. (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:12:01 PM EST
    But frankly we have no evidence that our party ever had a stronger nominee.

    Stronger?  

    No way.

    Parent

    Maybe not (none / 0) (#312)
    by vigkat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 10:10:18 PM EST
    And certainly not yet.

    Parent
    MSNBC will continue to prop him (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by bjorn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:34:30 PM EST
    up until it is official in August.  I am disappointed in Todd though, he usually knows his stuff.  Chris is a different story, he is all over the map from one day to the next, heck from one mintue to the next.

    they always pull this crap... (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:36:16 PM EST
    what I want to know is why nobody is asking why Obama did so poorly in NC, considering his 29 point margin in Virginia.  These are Obama's two supposed "expand the map" states, and in both states Bush beat Kerry by the same 54-46% margin...

    and in less than two months, Obama's margin is cut in half?  Even though NC had a higher percentage of AA voters?

    Obama did so well in Virginia (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Left of center on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:42:25 PM EST
    because they had an open primary where Obama got 72% of republican crossover votes to Clinton's 22%.

    Parent
    Republicans voting for Obama - (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:45:51 PM EST
    That means they will vote for him in the fall.

    Republicans voting for HRC -

    That means they are trying to mess with our primary and deny Obama his crown!!!111!!!

    The double standard rides again.

    Parent

    Chaos 1.0 in Virginia (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:46:14 PM EST
    shall never be mentioned.

    Choas 2.0 Indiana shall never be forgotten.

    Parent

    A technicality, I suppose, but (none / 0) (#296)
    by alsace on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:26:18 PM EST
    those times I've opted to vote in the Republican primary, I've not considered myself a "crossover," since we don't register by party in Virginia.

    Parent
    correction (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:48:52 PM EST
    VA was 54-46, NC 56-44.

    damned dislexia!

    Parent

    He won whites in Virginia (none / 0) (#96)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:59:03 PM EST
    Doesn't Virginia favor McCain? n/t (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by DJ on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:09:42 PM EST
    It's not just Virginia (5.00 / 2) (#200)
    by RalphB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:32:00 PM EST
    that favors McCain, Colorado will also go McCain.  The other day, I saw someone say that Obama puts Texas in play.  These people are totally delusional.  This race may well be 1972 all over again, hopefully with the same result.


    Parent
    Nobody has to ask (none / 0) (#106)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:01:13 PM EST
    We all watched the news.

    Parent
    It's easier to be a pundit - (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by liminal on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:36:30 PM EST
    - when you can just make crap up, without respect for pesky things like facts.  Bush got away with it for what - four and a half, to maybe five years?  The housing industry got away with it for about the same amount of time.  Pundits, though, have the chance to get away with it permanently.

    Here is a snippet from Mike Barnicle: (5.00 / 7) (#12)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:37:28 PM EST
    Now, faced with a mathematical mountain climb that even Stephen Hawking could not ascend, the Clintons -- and it is indeed both of them -- are just about to paste a bumper sticker on the rear of the collapsing vehicle that carries her campaign. It reads: VOTE WHITE.

    Once again, it is all Hillary (and Bill's) fault.

    Oh. My. G! (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:39:36 PM EST
    That is incredibly, insanely racist.

    What is wrong with these people?

    Parent

    Barnacle is a racist himself (none / 0) (#21)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:40:40 PM EST
    Geee-ross. (none / 0) (#23)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:41:32 PM EST
    Barnacle is a racist himself (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:40:07 PM EST
    you should have seen him on that NBC race forum.

    he's an ethnic Irish  New Englander Republican in the mould of Peter King.

    I do not know why he's on there calling the Dem primary. he'll vote mccain without much fanfare.

    Parent

    What a L O S E R (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:44:08 PM EST
    I wonder if he projects much?

    Parent
    Who did he plagiarize that from? (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:49:33 PM EST
    Should Spell It Barnacle....A Nasty Lump (5.00 / 1) (#250)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:48:55 PM EST
    clinging to the a$$ end of the boat.  He is as disgusting as his buddy Tweety.

    Parent
    Woody - is that you? (none / 0) (#29)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:43:44 PM EST
    Jepp! Tis I... (none / 0) (#85)
    by tokin librul on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:56:32 PM EST
    how ya doin,' dahlin

    Parent
    Slowly becoming bitter (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:58:59 PM EST
    and clinging to HRC!

    How about you?

    Parent

    been bitter a LONG time... (5.00 / 1) (#247)
    by tokin librul on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:46:40 PM EST
    i have never thought BHO was electable in the GE. Not this year, at any rate, and withal, now, likely ever. I have stated in many a forum that, from my observations, Mid-dull Murka (as I fondly address that seething mass of thwarted expectation and racial choler) is not ready for ITS Prezanen to be any kind of black guy with Hussein for a middle name. Not in the midst of the furor over the GWOT.

    I am not thrilled with Hillary, either. With her gas-tax fizsco she demonstrated to me she'll toss the planet under the bus if it gains her an inch of political expediency. This is not the way to this old DFH's heart, you know?

    Another opinion i have held for sometime now is that the fix is in, the deck is stacked, the cards are marked, the dice are shaved, the table's rigged, the drinks are drugged (and short), the beef isn't, the dealers cheat, and the boss trains the dealers: that is, Bombin' Johnnie McShame's gonna be #44...

    Parent

    this is the new meme (none / 0) (#183)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:25:41 PM EST
    check out this headline at Ablog:

    Clinton disses black voters, three times, in the past 24 hours. Anyone else smell a trend?

    of course there is no actual "dissing" in the post. just a reference to the fact that Obama is not winning whites.

    oh, I like this one too:

    Hating Hillary
    by John Aravosis (DC)

    I'm amazed at how many Democrats I talk to who now "hate" Hillary Clinton.

    Parent

    Me too. (none / 0) (#218)
    by 1jpb on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:36:53 PM EST
    Barnicle pile on!

    I cringe when I see anything related to him.  I can't forget his firing from the Globe.  And, I did see a little of that weird MSNBC race thing, where he stood out as especially unilluminating.

    That said, to my reading, his comments about HRC's dependence on white voters isn't any worse than pundits and bloggers that relentlessly focus on HRC's white demographic power.  I think this conversation is frivolous: there is never any attempt to calculate GE correlations or causations.  Instead primary exit polls are combined with technical ignorance resulting in baseless assertions turned into deeply felt conclusions.  I'm constantly amazed by how few people understand the limitations of polling.  But, the worst polling ignorance is still ten times better informed than the Willy-nilly conclusions that result when primary exit polling is extrapolated to the context of a GE.

    But, whatever; different strokes for different folks.

     

    Parent

    you know... (5.00 / 7) (#14)
    by Turkana on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:37:59 PM EST
    if you continue to make these scary factual posts you'll never get to ride the unity pony. or get invited onto msnbc.

    ha, really (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:42:15 PM EST
    facts have a well known anti MSNBC bias

    Parent
    Maybe BTD will get to ride the (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:47:26 PM EST
    unity ass, he's always bringing up some inconvenient truth of some kind ;)

    Parent
    An inconvenient truth (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:50:36 PM EST
    that people don't want to hear, as usual.

    There's a lesson in here somewhere.  :)

    Parent

    BTD=Al Gore? (none / 0) (#76)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:54:46 PM EST
    Kewl!!!

    Parent
    You've been slippin into the koolaid (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:03:43 PM EST
    I can tell because you are losing your logic ;)

    Parent
    Gore Was Screwed Royally, And I Know He Is (none / 0) (#253)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:51:11 PM EST
    not what you would call friendly with the Clintons, but for the good of the party, he should step in and tell the DNC they are f'n up big time.

    Parent
    I wish he would. (none / 0) (#261)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:54:38 PM EST
    But I think he is staying out of it for now.

    Parent
    Unity Pony? It's Bush's old Mechanical Bull (5.00 / 1) (#292)
    by Ellie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:22:15 PM EST
    Hop and and within moments, you realize it's just the same old pain in the ass.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 7) (#19)
    by david mizner on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:40:23 PM EST
    To say that Obama has trouble with working class whites (and old people) is not to say that blacks are less important. Nor is to fetishize the white working class. To say that Obama has trouble with working class whites is to state the obvious.

    The longer progressives deny this problem the greater it will become.

    he has more trouble than that. (5.00 / 6) (#50)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:49:05 PM EST
    the crossover trouble making repubs won't vote for him in the general. let's see who is not in the inner group? hmmm! well: boomers, hispanics, catholics, conserative religeous groups, older women(subgroup), independents, military(don't forget them), blue collar workers. if i were to really sit down and think about it,i could come up with more. oh yeah, reagan democrats, many from the south. that's enough to deep six barrack in november i think, don't you.

    Parent
    Cheers. (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by liminal on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:00:44 PM EST
    Note: I think that the explicit economic interests of working class whites and virtually identical to the explicit economic interests of working class African-Americans.  Obama's appeal to working class African-Americans is has been largerly cultural, much like Bush's appeal to working class whites in 2000 and 2004 (NASCAR dads, anyone?).  Note before anyone goes crazy on me: I'm not comparing Obama to Bush under any circumstances, except in that they are inspiring loyalty from a particular economic group based on cultural rather than economic factors.  Moreover, er, I think that Bush's persona as presented to working class whites was a big fat lie (albeit one he believed), while Obama's image with AA's is not a big fat lie.

    Okay: so - my point is that since he's earned working class AA support with an explicitly cultural appeal, he doesn't have the same sort of direct stake in the sort of progressive/liberal/Democratic economic policies that will genuinely stabilized big portions of the working class, white and African American.

    I don't actually think that he's going to lose in November; IMO, this is a Democratic year.  However, I worry  that the party will mistake "Democratic year" for "New Obama Coalition" and miss the chance that I see for a New New Deal Coaliation, and that disappoints me.  I hope the Obama inner circle genuinely understands their problem with working class Americans because I want the Democratic party to make a new and genuine committment to economic prosperity for all, but I worry that they have swallowed their own rhetoric and may actually believe that HRC wins this demographic because of white racism.

    Parent

    they don't understand. (none / 0) (#143)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:10:34 PM EST
    please don't wait around hoping against hope they will. it isn't going to happen. new deal? naw same as the old deal. i know the rest of us are just bitter.

    Parent
    Thanks for this thoughtful post (none / 0) (#151)
    by davnee on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:13:14 PM EST
    I agree heartily with you about your analogy between Bush and Obama.  I'm much more skeptical than you are about Obama's November prospects, but I wholeheartedly agree that if he does win it will be in spite of his candidacy and not because of it.  It didn't always have to be that way, but it is now.  Like you said, I hope the Dems are not stupid enough to believe like Donna Brazille that there is a new winning coalition that does not include the majority of people living today (and only growing in numbers) in America.  Even if Obama does somehow win, I believe he will be a one-termer that ultimately damages the Democratic brand a la Carter.

    Parent
    Guess what? (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:46:16 PM EST
    Any AA is going to have problems with working class whites - particularly older working class whites.  It's a generational thing.  But I don't think that we should shy away from an AA candidate who has a pledged delegate and popular vote lead just because of that.

    Parent
    He would have a lot less of a problem (5.00 / 8) (#51)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:49:12 PM EST
    if he hadn't called them bitter, racist, gun-toting bible thumpers.

    AND if he didn't have all of these radioactive personal associations.

    AND if he didn't constantly belittle and smear the accomplishments of one of the most popular Democratic Presidents in history, for whom MOST OF THEM VOTED.

    AND if he didn't pretend he thought Bill and Hillary were racists.

    Parent

    A primary win (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:54:04 PM EST
    does not even in the slightest guarantee a win in November.  It's a percentage of the total votes.  It may have been larger this time, but it doesn't tell the whole story.  And when the media start in on Obama, in their "Oh, we hate to tell you this, but..." way, look out below.

    What is it about that that you don't get?

    Parent

    I'm not saying (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by david mizner on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:55:19 PM EST
    we should shy away from him; i voted for him. But he needs to do merely not very well among working class whites, as opposed to terribly, in order to win.

    It's a problem too deep to be handled by cosmetic changes and paeans to his hardworking single mother and father-in-law.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 7) (#91)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:58:27 PM EST
    We all know what a natural affinity that white working class voters have for upper-middle class, suburban, female graduates of Wellesley and Yale Law.

    I mean its a perfect fit!  How could anyone, let alone an African American, compete with that?

    sheesh....

    Clinton won the working class white vote because she busted her butt for years earning their trust.  So don't give me this "Obama was at a disadvantage" nonsense -- some voters actually want to know who you are before they will give you their vote.

    Parent

    This I Resent, Bigtime!!! (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by jackyt on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:06:16 PM EST
    I'm for Clinton because she knows her stuff and, I believe, has a vision for improving the lot of ALL Americans.

    I'm against Obama because he doesn't seem to have a grasp of even the most elementary issues (Health Care and Social Security).

    How does that make mine a vote based on race identity?

    Parent

    excuse me don't demean older workers. (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:08:55 PM EST
    it is economics and basic common sense. obama will not move heaven and earth to protect that which fdr brought to this country. he is a face and few really know what is there. i don't like the red flags i see at all and mam that is not generational.

    Parent
    why (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by DFLer on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:25:25 PM EST
    why is it that whites voting for the white candidate is called racist, but blacks voting for the black candidate not called racist?

    Parent
    When I asked this question (none / 0) (#227)
    by misspeach2008 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:38:05 PM EST
    at another site, I was told that only the group that had all of the power could be called racist.  However, the group that was being oppressed could be called bigots if they behaved the same way. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it works for me.

    Parent
    Chris Matthews is a professional cheerleader (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:40:38 PM EST
    His job is to look good while jumping up and down and what the rules of the real game being played  on the field are (ummmm let's see, where's the ball now)..........not as important as cheering because his job is cheerleader.  Rules and field conditions...that stuff is for refs and coaches and the people having to actually play the game.....Sheesh BTD.

    Obama supporters should be thanking Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Left of center on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:46:00 PM EST
    for hanging in there longer because once she drops out it's going to be reverend Wright and Rezko 24/7 till the general election.

    Props to BTD (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by stillife on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:46:32 PM EST
    I know it's been said before, but I truly appreciate your objectivity. I may be a fanatical Hillbot, but I don't like sites that are echo chambers.  

    Obama's race problem is a legitimate issue, and I see no coverage of it in the MSM.

    race (none / 0) (#78)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:55:18 PM EST
    I disagree with the whole frame of this post.

    Racists won't vote for Obama for obvious reasons.  A number of non racist D's won't either.  Kerry and Gore didn't get 100 percent of D votes in their years. Obama wont' either.  Neither would Hillary.

    You can't deny his campaign has been canny and well strategized and run.   I'd say that means they'll figure out how to stitch together a coalition.  It's a slightly different coaltion than Hillary's.  Edwards would also be slightly different.

    They used to say Bill Clinton's female eruptions would destroy his campaign with all religious voters.  It didn't.  All these "silver bullets" are just talk.

    Parent

    If you mean he had the best slime machine (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by bjorn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:59:03 PM EST
    I agree with that...

    Parent
    Naive. (none / 0) (#108)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:02:25 PM EST
    Just naive.

    God luck though.

    Parent

    I think the same of you. (none / 0) (#209)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:34:13 PM EST
    Coincidence. I think you're naive.

    Parent
    Is this the argument? (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:47:48 PM EST
    (Block of voters X) didn't vote for Obama in large enough numbers in the primary against Hillary.

    Therefore, (block of voters X) won't vote for Obama in large enough numbers in the general, because they didn't in the primary.

    (Block of voters X) won't change their minds and can't be changed, because Obama has failed to do Y.

    We have proof that Obama has failed to do Y and won't do Y.

    I think this is specious, candidate-partisan reasoning.  But it's everywhere here.  Assertions assertions assertions.

    If Obama were a sham, he wouldn't be doing as well as he is.  If he weren't a liberal, he wouldn't be a Democrat.  

    Look, he needs to do stuff.  So would Hillary were she to be the nominee.  What candidate is flawless?  Jeez.  

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:50:43 PM EST
    That's telling me.

    Parent
    So you backed down! (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:53:26 PM EST
    Speechless. (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:56:19 PM EST
    If Obama were a sham, he wouldn't be doing as well as he is.  If he weren't a liberal, he wouldn't be a Democrat.

    OMG.

    This after eight years of Bush.

    Oy.


    Parent

    Oy? (none / 0) (#97)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:59:05 PM EST
    be more specific. Take me on. Come on. I'm ready.

    What specifically do you want to say to me? or is "Oy" your argument?

    Parent

    Obama has been (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:07:33 PM EST
    A US senator for 3-plus years years.  He's accomplished little or nothing for the people.  But he's managed to write books and run for president.

    What is a liberal, little man?  Tell me.

    Parent

    So I'm "little" (1.00 / 0) (#154)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:13:36 PM EST
    How do you know how "little" I am?  Is that one of your criteria?

    I don't think much personally of spouses riding on their spouses coattails, nor do I like the same names popping up as Presidents over and over again.

    I also don't think the other candidate in question has accomplished much.

    I don't think JFK or Truman accomplished much prior to their Presidencies either.

    You seem to be saying Obama is all ego and show and Hillary is not.  I say, they both are. They're politicians.  You're playing a schoolyard, "My dog's better than your dog" game.  

    I'm 5-11, by the way.  

    Parent

    Ah, an anti-dynasty advocate. I get it. (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:24:14 PM EST
    Wow. (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:25:07 PM EST
    I don't think much personally of spouses riding on their spouses coattails,

    Just wow.

    OMG.  Tweety is commenting here?

    Tweety, you're an a**, by the way.

    Parent

    try actually communicating with me (1.00 / 1) (#220)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:37:07 PM EST
    You really don't like actual argument, do you?

    Parent
    Yes. (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:26:42 PM EST
    You're playing a schoolyard, "My dog's better than your dog" game.

    My candidate is better qualified than yours.

    Yes, she is.


    Parent

    that's subjective (none / 0) (#226)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:38:00 PM EST
    but you think it's objective

    Parent
    With heels? (none / 0) (#188)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:27:39 PM EST
    I'm 5-11, by the way.  

    :-)

    Parent

    Well I don't recall BTD saying that (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:07:51 PM EST
    Obama was a Sham or saying that he wasn't a liberal.  I do remember him saying that Obama has a problem getting the working class white vote.

    Parent
    Here's the issue (5.00 / 8) (#89)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:57:43 PM EST
    Obama won by completely trashing the one 2-term Democratic president we ever had.

    There's a lot of we traditional Dems out there, and we were horrified by his assertions.

    He can't take it back.

    He built his entire campaign around it.

    Moreover, the current Democratic leadership is trying to pass this off as "expanding the party."

    Stuff and nonsense.  It's kicking out the Clinton Democrats.  That's not expansion.

    They are hoping to replace us, for sure.  With the youth and higher turnout of AA voters.

    So it's Obama's job now to keep up that level of turn-out.

    And it's the job of Clinton Democrats to find a new party.

    Parent

    "They?" (1.00 / 2) (#104)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:01:05 PM EST
    "They"?  Good golly gee. You are paranoid.  And you're wrong.  

    And I loved Bill as President. he was the only D who could win back then.  

    But I think his playbook (and Hillary's) is out of date.  And they don't know it - that's part of why they lost this year.  

    But Bill was one of the all time great communicators, though.  Strange to watch him floundering this cycle.

    Parent

    "They" (5.00 / 4) (#123)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:06:20 PM EST
    isn't at all vague:  Pelosi, Kennedy, Kerry, Donna, Dean........

    Washington insiders, each and everyone.

    Not at all paranoid.  

    Realistic, though.

    Parent

    who is an insider? (none / 0) (#141)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:10:10 PM EST
    So you think Hillary and Bill aren't "insiders?"

    Parent
    Yes. (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:22:34 PM EST
    They always have been and they always will be.

    They are beloved by the American people, but not by the Party.

    Parent

    Clintons (5.00 / 4) (#179)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:24:55 PM EST
    have never been Washington insiders.

    Don't you get it?

    She really ALWAYS was the populist candidate.

    ALWAYS.

    I kept pointing this out.  There's no mystery why she appeals to the traditional Dems.

    We can't STAND Washington insider elitists.  Never have liked em'.  Never will.

    Parent

    And the new playbook,,,,, (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by trillian on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:10:54 PM EST
    ...is what, exactly?

    Hopety Changey?

    Oh, I'm sure we'll win with that  /snark

    Parent

    the playbook (1.00 / 1) (#160)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:17:13 PM EST
    Hillary's playbook was "I'm a problem solver."

    that's my take.  But it didn't work.  "Unity" is speaking to people.  Obama and his team know how to communicate politically.  The result is proof.

    H. Clinton recited lists of policy positions, like Kerry and Gore. (Bill didn't do that, but Hillary didn't learn from him, which mystifies me)

    Can you deny that Obama figured out how to win this race, and Clinton didn't?

    Politics ain't beanbag.  Snark doesn't prove squat. When your candidate loses, he or she loses.  That's all.  We have to deal with it.

    Parent

    Obama figured out how to win (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:19:59 PM EST
    by completely and totally gaming the system.

    He gets neither credit nor respect for that.

    Parent

    Hillary plays the game, too. They all do. (1.00 / 1) (#195)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:30:33 PM EST
    How did he game the system?  By getting FL and MI to break the DNC rules? Or are you alleging conspiracy?

    Where's the proof of that, if so?  I see no difference in Hillary leveraging her husband's election and name ID to land a Senate seat with massive fundraising, forcing out other candidates with more experience at the time.  

    And how about how she made herself the favorite before this election even started.  Objectively, you think she was the most experienced and qualified of all possible candidates? No, she gamed the system by outraising others and calling in favors.  She persuaded that way.  Obama has his own way of persuading.

    She worked the system very well herself.  She's good too.  Just not as good as Obama.

    Gaming is part of the deal.  yes, it's a game.  This was a fair fight.  Both are scrappers.

    Parent

    You are absolutely on another planet. (5.00 / 2) (#239)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:43:27 PM EST
    She did not "work the system." She got votes. Amazingly, she did it without lying about and smearing her opponent and his family in the most vile and disgusting manner. "Senator from Punjab," anyone? Harry and Louise? Hill and Bill are racists? The list goes on and on and on.

    He found a way to get 90% of the black vote to fake his way through the nomination. And yes, it is HIS FAULT that MI and FL are currently not counted. He blocked the revotes. And Donna Brazile made sure that the nuclear option was taken rather than the 50% one in order to help Obama.

    I'm through with him. And believe me, I did not always feel this way.

    Parent

    actually, you're on the wrong planet (1.00 / 1) (#258)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:51:43 PM EST
    My planet is "Earth".  Where politics ain't beanbag.

    Hillary never smeared Obama? You don't think Wright was a smear, that she wasn't playing with stereotypes? (I do, and I also think it was a legit attack - because that's politics) What is your definition of "smear?"  

    You want to bring Bill into this?  And I'm an admitted fan of his presidency.  But lord....nafta, the first botched health reform, rwanda.  

    And since when is "smearing" not part of politics?  Your self absorption and naivety is breathtaking.  Well, that's my opinion.

    Parent

    Good grief. (5.00 / 1) (#259)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:53:35 PM EST
    How was Reverend Wright Hillary's fault?

    Parent
    I am very much looking forward (5.00 / 1) (#297)
    by IzikLA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:26:58 PM EST
    to the answer on this one!

    Parent
    WELL (none / 0) (#198)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:30:49 PM EST
    I give him high marks for figuring out the weaknesses in the current system.

    That's an analytical skill that was pretty darn bold.

    Parent

    Gag. (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:22:00 PM EST
    "Unity" is speaking to people.

    After Bush?  

    Disgusting.

    Parent

    yeah, I can deny it... (5.00 / 6) (#178)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:24:51 PM EST
    Can you deny that Obama figured out how to win this race, and Clinton didn't?

    because the race is to the white house, not the democratic nomination.

    As for Obama's ability to communicate -- I got the message, and I'll be sitting it out in November.

    Unity?   Obama's despicable tactics have split a party that was completely ready to be unified.  

    Parent

    I don't think he cares much (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:29:52 PM EST
    about Democrats, per se.

    Just votes.

    He needed to run as a Dem, for the legitimate logo only.

    But you don't come out like a cowboy blasting out the most popular Dem president ever and expect to keep Democrats.

    Nah*......he's always been a third party guy.

    What I'm guessing is he's flummoxed because she so won over Latinos.  That wasn't in his game plan.

    I wait to see how what kind of coalition he'll beuild.  Trust me.  It won't be the college kids.  :)

    Parent

    sour grapes. (1.00 / 1) (#216)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:36:20 PM EST
    your opinion is in the minority. You'll see.

    Parent
    I'm in the minority (5.00 / 1) (#233)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:40:23 PM EST
    by definition.  LOL*

    I'm used to it.  Being a lifelong Dem.  :)

    Parent

    Unity... (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by trillian on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:32:19 PM EST
    Unity for him equals "love those Republicans".

    And really as far as how he won?  He won by gaming the caucus system.

    And no, I don't have to deal with it.

    I've already changed my affiliation from Dem to Independent.

    And before you ask, no, I am not young. Is 64 old enough for you?

    Parent

    Actually, I think (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:26:13 PM EST
    the longer Obama campaigns, the more supporters he stands to lose. He has no message, and people are eventually going realize they can't repeat his stand on policies in order to defend him.

    Parent
    Live by identity politics (5.00 / 6) (#45)
    by sonya on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:48:05 PM EST
    Die by identity politics.  

    Obama is absolutely unelectable in the general.  Regardless of what a bunch of talking head losers say, I suspect there are more than a few in the party who will not be dragged down by him.  

    I agree (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:54:18 PM EST
    about die by identity.  It's a killer.  Even Latino politicians should think very carefully here.

    There is no future in this strategy.

    Parent

    you're absuletly correct BTD. (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by cpinva on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:49:33 PM EST
    this is also why sen. obama, should he be the eventual dem nominee, will not just lose, but be soundly thrashed by sen. mccain in nov.

    unlike kennedy in the '60 election, sen. obama has been shown to be totally incapable of reaching beyond his core constituency: blacks, the very young and the college educated. kennedy was able to transcend his irish-catholic constituency, sen. obama can't seem to do the same with his.

    the brutal facts: sen. obama cannot win any of the deep south states in the GE. the only reason he won them in the primaries is because of the heavy AA vote, this will be completely diluted in the GE. he might win the historically solid dem states and DC, along the mid-atlantic and NE coasts.

    further, he won't win FL or MI, nor most other mid-west states, or SD, ND, MN, WY, UT...........well, you get the picture. what all the mid-west states have in common is a negligable AA population, and a strong bent towards republicans in the GE. ok, i'll give him IL, but not IN.

    but hey, that's fine, if sen. obama wins the nomination, i'll hold my nose and vote for him. hold my nose because: a. he'll lose., and b. sen. clinton will make a better president than him to begin with.

    however, i do retain the right to send 50,000 volts shooting through my pc, to the first obamatwit to come here after the convention and be snide!

    Obama base (none / 0) (#203)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:33:10 PM EST
    I know the black population is overwhelmingly voting for Barack, but could someone tell me what it is he has said he will do to improve their lives. Is this a demographic that is voting for him simply because he is half black?

    Women baby boomers, and older, who are supporting Hillary are doing so because she is going to fight for the middle and low income members of the country, too, not because she looks like them. The Clintons have that history, you know.

    BTW, let's not forget that Michelle Obama has said on national TV that she does not know that she would support Hillary as the democratic nominee. Unity? Democrat? Not so much. I've never heard her retract that statement.

    Parent

    Obama hasn't done a d**n thing (5.00 / 1) (#304)
    by sonya on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:33:19 PM EST
    for black folks.  Most of my family and friends are voting for him simply because he's black.  My brother calls me a hater because I refuse to.  It's nothing more than instant emotional gratification with no thought for the long-term consequences of voting for someone wholly unqualified for the office and thereby doomed to fail.

    Parent
    The working class (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:52:18 PM EST
    is now the poor, that's all.  And they can't send money over the internet to a candidate.

    Therefore, they got beaten badly.

    That's all I see.

    Well, the working class also (none / 0) (#159)
    by daria g on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:15:43 PM EST
    Are much, much less likely to sit in front of their computers all day flooding blogs and political forums with vicious attacks and pushing the worst smears against the other candidate.

    Parent
    That stuff (none / 0) (#212)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:35:13 PM EST
    isn't relevant.  Only about 200,000 voters are on the net.

    Who cares what any of us say, frankly.

    We're irrelevant.

    Parent

    Do we have good numbers on the suburban vote? (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by davnee on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:52:52 PM EST
    How are the soccer moms (aka security moms) and their husbands voting?  These were the people Obama said only he could get.  And even with the tony Triangle burbs of NC available to him he still struck out.  If McCain can peel off a chunk of these suburban voters that likely have been trending Dem then Nov could be an even more epic disaster.

    White independents (including men) voted for HRC in both NC and IN.  This was supposed to be his block of white voters.  They didn't follow the VA or WI  models respectively.   If he has to work to bring them home to him, that will only distract him from the critically needed efforts to bring in working class voters of all ethnicities.  Can he learn to be a god bless America populist and still pander to his libertarians, his hybrid-driving rich lefties, and those moderate suburbanites that probably make just enough $$ to be wary of the costs of populism and are probably unnerved just enough by the patriotism stuff?

    no (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:54:24 PM EST
    lol. (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:55:12 PM EST
    Can he learn to be a god bless America populist and still pander to his libertarians, his hybrid-driving rich lefties, and those moderate suburbanites that probably make just enough $$ to be wary of the costs of populism and are probably unnerved just enough by the patriotism stuff?

    that's his mission in a nutshell.

    Parent

    IIRC Obama Lost The Burbs In PA (none / 0) (#170)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:23:21 PM EST
    Don't know about NC or IN.

    Don't see him needing to pander to his core supporters. To date they have not really asked him for anything and have invested too much of themselves in his candidacy.

    IMO the more the media get into Obama's associations with Wright (i.e. if more there), Ayers and others, the more he is at risk with Soccer Moms and non AA independent voters. Non AA working class  and rural voters will be may difficult to recapture due to his own statements and those of his surrogates. Also, he just doesn't seem comfortable when addressing them and rhetoric is more text book than down to earth.

    Parent

    On CNN (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:54:08 PM EST
    Jack Cafferty went on one of his usual nonsensical rants about the 'delusional' quality of the Clinton campaign and her supporters. I am beginning to wonder whether all of the MSM in the tank for Obama are being fed pharamaceutical grade hallucinogens. Reality and the MSM just don't mix. Sheesh!

    Obama will most likely be the nominee in August but ignoring the facts and pretending there are no flaws in his campaign is political suicide.

    Is it okay... (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:04:04 PM EST
    ... to say the following?

    The primary was pretty much over once African American voters decided to vote by such huge margins for Obama.

    According to the 2004 exit poll, blacks made up 21% of Kerry voters nationally. If you're in a two-person race, and your opponent has a lock on 90% of that large a block of voters, you're in deep trouble.

    In fact, just to tie in the popular vote, Clinton needed to win everyone else 61-39, or by 22 points. To win 55% of the popular vote, she'd have to win 67-33. That she's very close is quite an achievement, though not one you'll hear much about in the gleeful obituaries in the press.

    It was a basically impossible task. The only way Clinton could have succeeded was if the Democratic Party was some odd marriage of African American voters and prejudiced voters who would support someone else by huge margins. And it's not, nor would anybody want it to be, including Clinton.

    Well... (none / 0) (#147)
    by Alec82 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:11:42 PM EST
    ...it doesn't really explain the results in other states with negligible AA populations.    

    Parent
    You mean the caucus states? (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:18:26 PM EST
    Don't you think it's a bit weird how he won the Texas caucuses but lost the Texas primary, for example? What could the explanation for that be?

    I have no confidence whatsoever that he won those caucuses honestly.

    Parent

    I'm not saying it's true in every state. (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:18:36 PM EST
    The non-AA's favorable to her and to Obama are spread unevenly among the various states.

    But nationally, she had to win the non-AA vote by 22 points to break even. That's asking a whole lot.

    Parent

    You mean, (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:19:37 PM EST
    WI and Iowa, way back then?

    This is a process.  It has been injected, as usual, with political manuvering.  And it's too bad people listen to the media, instead of the message.

    He is not in any way, shape or form, the most qualified candidate.  It will be the first time I've said that about a dem nominee.

    It'll be a learning experience, but, thankfully, I won't be disappointed in November.

    Parent

    Right. (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:23:27 PM EST
    First, caucus states are not a good predictor of how the primaries will go.

    Second, it's not the case that each state is a microcosm of the country. Just as Obama won whites in Raleigh but lost them in western NC, he won whites in Vermont but lost them in Pennsylvania.

    But when you're in a position that you can lose the white/Latino/Asian/etc. vote by 20 points and still have a popular vote lead, well, you're in a good situation.

    Parent

    Um... (none / 0) (#197)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:30:46 PM EST
    But when you're in a position that you can lose the white/Latino/Asian/etc. vote by 20 points and still have a popular vote lead, well, you're in a good situation.

    In November?


    Parent

    In November... (none / 0) (#206)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:33:39 PM EST
    ... it's tougher. Then AA's make up only 11% of the vote.

    The Republican needs to win the non AA's by 10 points to beat a Dem getting 90% of the AA vote.

    Parent

    Ten points?!!! (none / 0) (#252)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:50:50 PM EST
    The Republican needs to win the non AA's by 10 points to beat a Dem getting 90% of the AA vote.

    Oh my.

    Parent

    lets see now... (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:30:18 PM EST
    there are a whole bunch of GOP caucus states that Obama won.

    And one or two Democratic caucus states that he won...

    and vermont.

    basically, with a few exceptions, he's won where Clinton didn't compete because she was focussed on building the coalition necessary to win in November, and not just win at delegate lotto.

    Parent

    Gergen (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by bodhcatha on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:06:26 PM EST
    Among all the vile bodies on TV last night, did anyone catch David Gergen on CNN rewriting recent history by insisting that Clinton had HAD to win both NC and IN?  He belittled her Penn win ("only nine points") and claimed that her NC loss meant that NObama must be the nominee because he was AA and deserved it, and AA's make up 25% of the Democratic voters.  As usual, no mention of the fact that Hillary draws women and they make up more that 50% of the Democratic voters!

    Oh, and when reminded that NObama was predicted to win both states, Gergen waved that off as insignificant.  My God, I turned off the TV before he started strapping on the kneepads.   Just a reminder why I loathe, abhor and detest the media.  I will NEVER vote for that arrogant and slimy lightweight.  Yes, I'm angry today!

    I did see that, and I thought (none / 0) (#152)
    by bjorn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:13:20 PM EST
    it was weird. He is usually measured and objective.  I think there was a lot of group think going on at CNN last night.  It was the worst I have seen, it was so bad I switched to MSNBC!

    Parent
    And women (none / 0) (#169)
    by Foxx on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:23:04 PM EST
    didn't vote 90% for Hillary. As I've said before, that is the problem.

    Parent
    Not Accurate (none / 0) (#190)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:28:17 PM EST
    If Hillary won 90% of women voters, Obama would have been out of the race in Feb.

    Hillary outperforms Obama among non AA women voters in the majority of the primaries and in the GE  against McCain.

    Parent

    No the problem is (none / 0) (#267)
    by bodhcatha on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:58:53 PM EST
    the 90%+ AA voters going to Obama.  We haven't see anything like that since the Soviet Union collapsed!  I wouldn't like to see 90% of women voting for Hillary, it would smack too much of mind control. (And I'm female)  Do you really think that AA's are voting for him in those numbers because they think he's best qualified??  If white women voted like that for Hillary, they would be accused of raci- oh, wait...

    Parent
    BTD (5.00 / 5) (#174)
    by facta non verba on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:23:43 PM EST
    has said that demographics is political destiny. True and truer by the day.

    Obama wins voters under 30, African-American, and those liberal voters who earn more than $150,000.
    He splits Hispanics and liberal/independents who earn $70,000 or more. He loses everyone else.

    The median income in the US is $40,000. Demographics is destiny.

    It's amazing how insignificant (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by Robot Porter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:23:47 PM EST
    MSNBC seems after you stop watching.

    What do they get ratings wise?  Like 1/20th the ratings of the third repeat of Spongebob?

    And that seems about right.  They're not even as interesting as a kiddie cartoon you've already seen twice.

    Obama is unelectable and will lose in November. (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by Exeter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:25:18 PM EST
    I'll vote for the guy, but just as the results last night were very predictable, the results in November will be very predictable. He has no general election success to point of being able to appeal to white voters (sorry his victory over joke candidate Alan Keyes doesn't count).  

    He beat at least one non-joke candidate (none / 0) (#192)
    by sarissa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:28:57 PM EST
    unfortunately.

    Parent
    The only general election candidate he has (5.00 / 1) (#249)
    by Exeter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:48:26 PM EST
    ever beat was Alan Keyes in blue Illinois.  

    Parent
    The Black Vote and Obama (5.00 / 5) (#196)
    by Bob Boardman on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:30:33 PM EST
    The North Carolina - Indiana Primaries prove that Geraldine Ferraro was correct. (Do not hold your breath for an apology, Gerry.)

    No other candidate could have beaten out Hillary Clinton for the nomination except for a black candidate.

    Without a black candidate to run against, Clinton would have created a coalition of working class blacks and whites. This coalition would have defeated any other netroot - egghead candidate - especially in the South.

    Now the Democrats have a Black Kerry - McGovern - ready for the slaughter this fall.

    I do not think that even nice words from tweety are going to help.

    I wash my hands of the whole matter.

    This is the comment (none / 0) (#222)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:37:38 PM EST
    of the whole primary.

    No other candidate could have beaten out Hillary Clinton for the nomination except for a black candidate.

    I'll add, a black male candidate (just to be precise).

    I'll add that it will be difficult, especially after all of this and Obama's lack of experience, for the black male candidate to beat the old white man.

    Charges of "racism" will not garner any sympathy in the GE.

    Parent

    This is probably true. (none / 0) (#257)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:51:39 PM EST
    She had an excellent coalition of black and white voters at the beginning.

    Obama's main strategic task was always to pry that black support away.

    That left her without the antiwar vote and the left-left.

    Parent

    The ani-war vote. (none / 0) (#271)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:05:19 PM EST
    Total morons.

    She would NOT be where she is in this stage of the campaign if she had voted no in October 2002.

    Of course, Kerry and Edwards got a pass from some, because they "apologized."   You see where that got them.

    Sob.  It's all so pathetic I don't know what to say.

    I'll keep supporting her instead of Obama.

    Oh, yes.  Fer shure.

    Parent

    He still has a problem (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by Rainsong on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:34:19 PM EST
    Even if he kisses & makes up and they have Clinton in the VP slot. The majority of Clinton voters will come around, as they always do, but it only takes a small percentage to turn away in a swing-state.

    His only hope of winning, is if McCain implodes badly with his own voter base. And what of  McCain's strategy? They can read an electoral map as well as we can.

    Since Florida in particular was handed over to the GOP as a done deal, which other states are the Repubs likely to focus on? California? The south-west or Pacific states?

    and you're basing (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:36:17 PM EST
    your claims on what? Link please.

    Or maybe they are the most savvy? (5.00 / 1) (#219)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:36:58 PM EST
    They see through his unity schtick? People who have to work hard for a living tend to become very good judge of bs, unlike some "urban professionals" I know.

    This is a serious comment btw, not meant to be a flame. I have believed this for a long time.

    Unity and hope doesn't pay your mortgage and doesn't get you health insurance.

    But i guess it's just irony (5.00 / 1) (#229)
    by Left of center on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:39:07 PM EST
    that 94% of African Americans just happen to agree with the policies of Obama as opposed to Hillary's policies.

    leftofcenter....Tell me you are kidding? Or are (none / 0) (#241)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:44:12 PM EST
    you just deluding yourself?  In my estimation, the guy who didn't want to play the race card, BUT DID, has turned this primary season into a bit of a race war.

    Parent
    You're right, (5.00 / 1) (#254)
    by Left of center on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:51:18 PM EST
    i'm just being a bit sarcastic.

    Parent
    You're snark detector is on the fritz. (5.00 / 1) (#265)
    by Joan in VA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:56:52 PM EST
    Just joshin' to lighten up this gloomy day.

    Parent
    If this is true, then (5.00 / 1) (#231)
    by zfran on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:40:07 PM EST
    isn't a President of the United States supposed to be able to relate to all the people, especially when he needs their vote. He doesn't relate to lower class white voters. He seems or appears to have his head above them. Look at how his campaign just went around Indiana...always with his tie in tack..I think he even wore it when he shot a few hoops...that's very uppity.

    Her coalition (5.00 / 1) (#235)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:41:47 PM EST
    was broad and deep.

    But the attitude that you express is OK.  That's why I can't stand the elitism of this "new" Democratic party.

    I Imagine We Would All Just Fall Over If We (5.00 / 2) (#236)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:42:05 PM EST
    were told any truths by the msm.  This is like bizarro world in the old superman comic books....everything is opposite of what it really is.

    Do you fell better now that you called (5.00 / 1) (#260)
    by feet on earth on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:53:48 PM EST
    people like me racists?  Is this what your high education thought you?  

    If You Really Want To Be Scared (5.00 / 0) (#263)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:55:35 PM EST
    Look at the exit polling on Wright.  46% of the electorate in Indiana and North Carolina said Wright was somewhat or very important to their vote.  46% in primaries where democrats made up the vast majority of voters said Wright was important to their vote.  Clinton won 71% of these voters in Indiana and about 57% in NC.  

    And, as you point out, he's still losing the White vote overall by 20%.  If not for the AA vote in Indiana and NC, which is inflated in democratic primaries, Clinton would've blown him out by 20% in both states.

    The Emperor has no clothes, but that's okay because the media and apparently many leading democrats have decided not to look.  

    Koch says Obama can't win (5.00 / 2) (#268)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:01:52 PM EST
    the GE due to his "pastor problem."   Warning:  Huffington Post link.

    KOCH

    But (none / 0) (#279)
    by squeaky on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:08:26 PM EST
    He already endorsed Hillary. It is not surprising that he would continue to defend his pick, just as many here are doing.

    Maybe he is a good prognosticator. He did endorse GW and not Kerry in 2004.

    Parent

    Yes, he has been a steadfast advocate (none / 0) (#290)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:21:41 PM EST
    for Clinton; he seems to be saying the same thing as BTD, just more veiled, and, thus, he advise her to remain in the contest.

    Parent
    Dividing on race (5.00 / 2) (#277)
    by stevenb on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:08:00 PM EST
    I think the big issue now is what BTD posted earlier:

    90% black vote for Obama = o.k.

    70% white vote for Clinton = racist motivations and not o.k.

    Why does the DLC not put to task solving the every-more-apparent and building racial divide between Obama and Clinton?

    I dispise the situation, that whites and blacks are dividing within the Dem. party, but if the ugly truth is just sitting inches below the surface, it seems that the time to address it is now, now, now.

    Otherwise, the Dems. will lost in the General Election.  

    As Donna Brazille herself pointed out on NPR today: "I'm a black woman, and I could support Clinton because of being a woman and I could support Obama because I'm black."  Even the Dem. party big-wig strategist picks her candidate on gut-rationalism, and obviously not on policy and experience.

    Just awful.

    In it for herself. (none / 0) (#286)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:14:10 PM EST
    As Donna Brazille herself pointed out on NPR today:

    Sorry.  Like all of them, she's looking out for Numero Uno.

    Not Obama.  Not the Democratic Party.

    Politics when it means favor.  As usual.

    Parent

    There are a lot more black people (none / 0) (#299)
    by lilybart on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:29:22 PM EST
    who will vote for a white person, and they usually have no choice, than white people who would ever vote for a black person.

    So the 90% were thrilled to vote for a black man for president because they cannot believe they are seeing it in their lifetimes.

    It is different.

    Parent

    there's more to it than meets the eye. (none / 0) (#309)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:35:40 PM EST
    http://www.redstate.com/stories/liberals/netroot_betrayal_a_retrospective#comment

    And Somerby made reference to this GOP manipulation months ago

    Parent

    Clean up (5.00 / 1) (#283)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:11:34 PM EST
    in Aisle 3.  The Unity Pony just took a big dump again.

    Would it be better (2.00 / 0) (#295)
    by lilybart on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:25:53 PM EST
    to choose a nominee based on exit polls instead of votes and delegates?

    Are exit polls an exact science? Not saying they are wrong but I still don't think we know for sure that none of Hillary's white vote will go for Obama in November.

    Obama will get the white vote in Oregon (1.00 / 0) (#48)
    by maritza on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:48:28 PM EST
    This is just dumb.

    It's dumb that he willl get (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:52:49 PM EST
    the white vote in Oregon? Or does the fact that he will get the white vote in Oregon mean he will win Oregon in November? See I agree with that.

    He'll win Colorado and New Mexico and Nevada too.

    I think I have been clear for some time that Obama changes the map.

    the issue is, wait for it - Ohio, PA, FL, MI.

    Parent

    Obama (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:59:21 PM EST
    hasn't a chance in heck of carrying Colorado or even New Mexico in the Fall.  LOL*  Thank Donna for that one.

    She signalled clearly.  Latinos aren't important.  LOL*

    Good golly, I'm glad I'm in with that group.  As a Clinton Democrat, I'd hate to be put out on this ice flow all alone!  :)

    Parent

    unimportant? That is false. (none / 0) (#107)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:02:09 PM EST
    I don't like Donna.  She NEVER said Latinos weren't important.  

    You are being disingenuous.  

    Look for the word "just"

    Parent

    Um (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:05:39 PM EST
    I can tell you I felt belittled by her statement.

    Parent
    i understand (none / 0) (#135)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:08:54 PM EST
    I agree, I don't like her style.  It made it too easy for people to misinterpret.  I'd get her off the air, if it were my campaign.  I didn't like her in other cycles.

    But the words on the page are clear.  The consequential assertion that Obama's campaign thinks nothing of Latino voters, orthat it thinks it doesn't need them, is hyperbolic.

    Parent

    the tone of her voice was so (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by bjorn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:15:17 PM EST
    nasty, reading it on the page does not do justice to the meaning - context is everything.

    Parent
    donna! hmm, i picture flying into the sun (none / 0) (#232)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:40:14 PM EST
    with wings of wax sorta like greek mythology!

    Parent
    Au contraire mon frere (5.00 / 2) (#274)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:07:20 PM EST
    Contraria you say
    It made it too easy for people to misinterpret.
    , but see, based on her attitude and the attitude of the campaign and Obama camp in general, this is what they think.  Problem is they don't have the collective sense to not say this kind of stuff in public.  They are politically naive and amateurs.  

    Parent
    It's a new party (5.00 / 4) (#149)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:13:08 PM EST
    she said.  It's "urban"  (not small-town, lunch-bucket Dems) and "younger"....(wish those old moderates would die, eh?)

    LOL*

    We all heard her and heard her clearly.

    Parent

    another side (1.00 / 1) (#205)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:33:30 PM EST
    So, assuming it's all true, should "urban" people be just as offended that they're not part of Hillary's coalition, that she played the WRight card in an offensive way?

    Because let me tell you, that perception is out there.

    Personally, I think it was fair. It was dirt, and this is politics.  But there is another side that you don't see, I think.

    Parent

    I'm skeptical of the Mountain West states... (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:08:00 PM EST
    Or at least I don't think it's a lock. It's true they're trending blue, but they still all went for Bush in 2004. And McCain is from around there.

    Parent
    Ah yes, the Mountain states (none / 0) (#153)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:13:26 PM EST
    they do like them some red around there.  Feels Libertarian out in the wilderness voting Republican ;)

    Parent
    no he won't. and it isn't dumb. (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:53:43 PM EST
    what it is called i think is racist dog whistles and demeaning a good woman. so don't assume along with obama that older women and the blue collar class he dissed and still does is in the barrel for him. now that is silly.

    Parent
    Obama WILL win the white vote in Oregon for sure (none / 0) (#115)
    by maritza on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:04:06 PM EST
    The African-American population is only 6% in Oregon and right now polls in Oregon show Obama winning the state by 12%.

    So the argument that Obama can't win the white vote is sophomoric.  Perhaps it depends where in the U.S.  In the West Obama wins the white vote (Washington, Oregon, Colorado, etc), the more educated areas of the country (Virginia, Maryland, etc) and the anti-war parts of the country (Wisconsin, Vermont, etc).

    Obama has problems with the white vote in the Apalachia part of the country (West Virginia, Kentucky, etc) and the South.  These places are just more racist and that is a fact.

    Now the question that the media needs to ask is if Hillary can win the black vote?  If she can't, there is no way in hell will she win the presidency in the Fall.

    Parent

    You contradict yourself (5.00 / 4) (#133)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:08:05 PM EST
    You write:

    "So the argument that Obama can't win the white vote is sophomoric."

    Then you write:

    "Perhaps it depends where in the U.S.  In the West Obama wins the white vote (Washington, Oregon, Colorado, etc), the more educated areas of the country (Virginia, Maryland, etc) and the anti-war parts of the country (Wisconsin, Vermont, etc).

    Obama has problems with the white vote in the Apalachia part of the country (West Virginia, Kentucky, etc) and the South. . . ."

    Um, sort of the point. As for your calling folks racist, well that is on you, but it won't get Obama many votes anywhere.

    Parent

    Obama won't win CO (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:09:17 PM EST
    in the general.

    Parent
    i have to take issue with your name (5.00 / 4) (#161)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:17:25 PM EST
    calling of the white blue collar workers. sorry but you sound like the obama talking points and nothing more.

    obama is toast in the general. i suggest you deal with that.

    Parent

    All those racists... (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:21:09 PM EST
    in Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Indiana.

    Parent
    Must Be Terrible To Live In All Those States (none / 0) (#221)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:37:11 PM EST
    when 50% to 60% of the non AA population are racists.

    Parent
    Well... (none / 0) (#242)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:44:43 PM EST
    Thank goodness they vote for Democrats in the general election!

    Parent
    too bad 90-some percent of AA voters are (none / 0) (#301)
    by LHinSeattle on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:30:46 PM EST
    "racist" too, then, since they won't vote for a white candidate.

    Or maybe they are misogynist and it's a female they won't vote for?

    Category-naming logic applies both ways to voters who (ostensibly) vote on race or gender.

    Parent

    If these places are so racist (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Kathy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:23:32 PM EST
    then why are so many aa's living here?  Why aren't they in liberal WY, SD, ND, ME, etc, where the aa population is less than one percent?  Why aren't they in NH and VT and WA where it's under five?

    It's easy to say folks aren't racist when they are the only race.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#269)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:02:48 PM EST
    I was sort of wondering that, too.

    Parent
    Clearly (5.00 / 1) (#266)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:57:55 PM EST
    he is winning the white vote in the west because those folks are more sexist. That is a fact.

    Now the question that the media needs to ask is if Barack can win the menopausal & post-sexual vote?  If he can't, there is no way he can win the presidency in the fall.

    Parent

    Well of course he will... (none / 0) (#120)
    by Alec82 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:06:03 PM EST
    ...if he wins it.  It is over 90% white.

    Parent
    Matthews knows all about Pennsylvannia... (none / 0) (#6)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:35:14 PM EST
    ...he want a Senate seat there.  He was practically scribbling down the clinton play book for when his own time comes. He also knows it's a linchpin of the Democratic presidential map.

    Tweety as a Senator? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:46:37 PM EST
    There aren't that many stupid people in the whole country let alone in any one state. Unless voters want a Senator that drools, periodically on camera.

    Parent
    Agree (none / 0) (#94)
    by Rhouse on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:58:59 PM EST
    Anyhow Arlan is too well liked in this state (PA) right now for Tweety to get any sort of traction against him.  Oh, and the AFT and other unions will probably support him in the 2010 race, since he's supported them.

    Parent
    God I hope he runs... (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:11:07 PM EST
    so I can contribute to attack ads from his primary opponents featuring "highlights" of his total a##hattery

    Parent
    Don't forget, spits on people! n/t (none / 0) (#99)
    by independent voter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:59:28 PM EST
    Never (none / 0) (#128)
    by MaryGM on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:07:21 PM EST
    I will actively support his opponent.  I'll volunteer, I'll give money, whatever it takes to keep that douche bag out of my state.

    God, first Santorum, then Casey, now that idiot?  What did PA do in its previous life to deserve this?!

    Parent

    Tweety as Repub or Dem? (none / 0) (#237)
    by jawbone on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:42:39 PM EST
    I can't imagine him running -- his entired TV career is out there for attack ads!

    Parent
    If she never had a chance... (none / 0) (#7)
    by sweetthings on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:35:30 PM EST
    Why is everyone (I'm lookin' at you, andgarden ;) ) so much more down today than they were on Monday?

    If she never had a chance, she never had a chance. But that wasn't the atmosphere here just a few days ago.

    its really indiana... (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:40:15 PM EST
    ...and the depressing sight of 92% of African Americans voting for Obama despite the whole Wright controversy.  

    Clinton actually didn't do badly in Indiana, considering that the AA% was 18%, and most of the polls were saying 10-11%

    Parent

    That's what got me. (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:42:19 PM EST
    Obama defends him one minute and damns him the next--along with most AAs in unison. That's not a sign of intellectual consistency.

    Parent
    it is the sight of aa's voting against (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:51:30 PM EST
    their own interests that disgusts me. from the research i have done, i can't find where obama has a record of helping aa's period, whereas bill clinton certainly did. the complete lack of grace and meaness toward them is something i won't forget.

    Parent
    Hey, he was a community organizer for (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:59:46 PM EST
    three years, in the sight of all those shuttered steelmills.

    Parent
    you mean in sight of all those (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:13:11 PM EST
    residential buildings his friend had with no heating in the winter don't you.

    Parent
    I missed that in last night's speech. (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:15:08 PM EST
    sorry, oculus! (none / 0) (#223)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:37:41 PM EST
    i was referring to something else. long day and hard night last night. you take care.

    Parent
    Are you sure you aren't subbing for (none / 0) (#240)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:43:42 PM EST
    Stellaaa here?  I know exactly to what you refer.

    Parent
    naw! smile! (none / 0) (#244)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:45:30 PM EST
    And obama sold his own constituents out while (none / 0) (#270)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:03:34 PM EST
    a state senator when he represented Rezko's company in the lawsuit brought against him when they were suing to get heat in their buildings.
    At least he is consistent, sells out his pastor, sells out his constituents and now the democratic party.

    Parent
    whew (none / 0) (#90)
    by contrarian1964 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:58:03 PM EST
    That's for AA's to determine, isn't it?

    After all, the massive national whining about why "values voters" weren't voting for Democrats was really a problem for those voters, right?  Democrats didn't need to change anything about the way they communicated with these voters, right?  I got a bridge to sell you.  

    Parent

    i don't want your bridge. thanks! (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:03:16 PM EST
    values voters? they aren't voting for obama. you actually think after this wright fiasco, they'll vote for obama? really? i have a bridge for you in that case. your candidate has chased off the core democratic base. heck of a job!

    and yeah, as an interested party it is my business which groups vote for in an election that will decide my country's fate. also with all the charges of racism thrown at the clintons's this 90% vote makes go, huh!

    Parent

    It's not so much that (none / 0) (#214)
    by Benjamin3 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:36:10 PM EST
    AA turnout was up - it's the fact that turnout in the rural areas Hillary needed was down.  Same deal for NC.  GOTV efforts are just tougher in some of those areas.

    Parent
    Indiana was too close (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:48:24 PM EST
    and North Carolina too wide.

    Ad the media expectations changed from just after PA. If you look back, you'll see that Andrea Mitchell (I think) said that Hillary just needed to win Indiana. Then it started looking like Hillary was pulling away there. I thought, and the media thought, that it was going to look like Ohio. It wasn't to be.

    Meanwhile, Obama walloped her in NC. He broke the 10 point landslide criterion.

    Parent

    That's what killed her! (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:51:17 PM EST
    The uptick in the AA vote and the percentage of that uptick pretty much sealed her fate.

    Parent
    It this part of the media dahling aura? (5.00 / 6) (#63)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:52:43 PM EST
    As Hillary Clinton pointed out last night, Obama sd. IN would be the tie-breaker.  She broke it, although not by much, I grant you; but he previously predicted he would win IN and he was ahead in the polls until recently.  Such short memories people have and so willing to believe what the media tells them.  

    Parent
    Ok, that's fair. (none / 0) (#155)
    by sweetthings on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:13:58 PM EST
    So demographics is destiny didn't really change...you just thought that Indiana demographics would end up more like Ohio's than they ultimately did.

    I can understand that.

    Parent

    Okay, lemme ask you this (none / 0) (#204)
    by Kathy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:33:14 PM EST
    I see a trend here, and that's a trend that shows Obama losing white support.  I think the polls back this up.  

    What if Clinton takes Oregon?

    Because I was here a day or so ago when BTD said that Oregon would be the tie breaker.

    What's changed?

    Parent

    Not gonna happen (4.00 / 1) (#224)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:37:48 PM EST
    But I think that might cause a re-evaluation.

    Parent
    We tend to get down (5.00 / 10) (#88)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:57:12 PM EST
    because the media chose our candidates for us and now is choosing our nominee. Would Obama be in the position he's in if the media wasn't in the tank for him? Wouldn't Hillary have had a better chance if they didn't hate her so much and attack and denigrate her constantly?

    I started out at an Edwards's supporter. I am now a Clinton supporter and am sadly watching the complete and total collapse of a meaningful media in this country as well as the demonization of a good decent Democratic candidate. All of which is depressing enough without the fact that the demonization things has been not only with the approval of much of the left and the party leadership but also with their help.

    I hope she can still pull it off. I believe she is the best candidate. But if she can't get her message out to the voters and if the voters hear a constant drumbeat of "it's over he won, it's over he won", how can she win?

    This campaign has been historic in many ways. It has shown that racism is a no-no, sexism is perfectly mainstream and out in the open and that the Democratic Party doesn't want or need, so they, say, the old coalition.

    Other than that, every-thing's just fine and dandy.


    Parent

    I also would like to hear from andgarden (none / 0) (#15)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:38:50 PM EST
    on this.  

    Parent
    Me three (5.00 / 6) (#121)
    by Kathy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:06:15 PM EST
    I keep asking it so much I'm gonna get troll rated: what has changed?  Two weeks ago, she was supposed to lose NC by 25 and IN by 7.  We all know last night's results.  What the heck?  She's beating expectations.  She's gaining more groups of voters.  She's polling ahead of him.  She's going to sweep WVA and KY.

    Please explain yourself, Mr Sad Sack!

    Parent

    Kathy (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:07:33 PM EST
    She only won Indiana by 25,000 votes.  She's lost the popular vote argument.

    She lost any chance of getting within 100 on the delegate argument.

    There's no real argument left.

    Parent

    FL (5.00 / 3) (#189)
    by Kathy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:27:54 PM EST
    combined with WVA, KY and PR can take care of that.

    I mean, he's only up by 14 delegates after last night.  Nothing drastic has changed.  Why wasn't everyone moping two weeks ago when she was expected to lose IN and NC?  SHE WON A STATE SHE WAS SLATED TO LOSE.  Guam was projected at 10%.  Step back and look at this with a cold eye.  Which candidate looks on the rise and which candidate looks like he's stalling?  Okay, the "he" gives away the answer, but still.

    Parent

    Kathy, I agree ... (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Robot Porter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:34:08 PM EST
    don't quite follow the doomsayers today.

    I think Cable News had to declare Obama the winner last night, so they can discount Hillary's wins in coming weeks.

    Parent

    Except the electability argument (none / 0) (#191)
    by davnee on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:28:29 PM EST
    That is the most important argument.  Unfortunately it is also the least palatable argument.  She was always going to win on the merits of the electability argument with the supers, but the popular vote argument was going to provide the legitimacy cover for the supers to do their job.  Now that that is gone (though if FL and MI had been counted at 50% all along we never would have gotten in this pickle) it is only possible for her to succeed on an Obama fumble as he falls on the ball to run out the clock.  A mega gaffe or revelation would give the supers the necessary cover to go with the better candidate.  It is highly unlikely but not impossible such a miracle will occur given how unvetted Obama is as a candidate.  So she should stay in for that reason alone.  

    The better reason she should stay in at this point is that she should vindicate the vote of every single remaining state, including FL and MI.  We are so close to the end, and she still has some high notes ahead of her.  And I want her to force the DNC and Obama's hand on FL and MI.  I want them counted before she concedes.  If he wins OR then he should have no fear of being a statesman and announcing at the meeting on 5/31 that he would like to see the states seated as is, with just the proper 50% penalty enforced on the pledged delegates.  Then she can agree to make her victory speech in PR also her concession speech.  She goes out on a high note, having saved FL and MI for the Dems, and having handed out some unity hugs.

    I still won't vote for Obama under any circumstance, but the above scenario would be my advice to the Dems and my wish for HRC who is too good a Dem to want to see the party crash and burn.

    Parent

    she should not concede... (5.00 / 4) (#256)
    by p lukasiak on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:51:37 PM EST
    rather, she should hold onto her delegates, while suspending her campaign until the convention.

    The moment to concede is the moment that Obama gets 2209 delegates during the vote on the convention floor.

    At the very least, she should use her leverage to guarantee that this never happens again.  First off, the whole delegate allocation process is a joke -- it results in more weight being given to Democrats in consistently Republican states than to Democrats in consistently Democratic and swing states.

    And she should insist on changes in the calendar.  Tell NH and IA to get stuffed -- and start out with a few small states that collectively "look like America" on the same day.  This two overwhelmingly white states, being "balanced" by SC and NV because of their AA and Hispanic populations respectively is simply insane.  The deep red states -- back of the line.

    And penalize states that have open primaries.  This is the Democratic nomination -- and Democrats should choose their nominee.

    And penalize states that hold caucuses instead of primary elections.  

    Parent

    See below (none / 0) (#156)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:14:54 PM EST
    In North Carolina? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:47:43 PM EST
    Or overall?

    I said Obama would win by 12.4% in NC.

    Parent

    What about the fifteen percent (none / 0) (#46)
    by AdrianLesher on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:48:18 PM EST
    of the voters polled who say they would abandon Clinton to McCain in November?  

    Most of that now "swing vote" (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:09:58 PM EST
    will not vote for Obama, and they aren't mad.

    They simply will see him as either too far left (Ayers/Wright/etc.) OR they will see him as not representing their interests.

    Parent

    Obama will be the nominee (none / 0) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:56:29 PM EST
    I am not wasting my time considering Clinton's problems.

    Parent
    Hey, guy, let us down gently. (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:07:11 PM EST
    why do you watch him? (none / 0) (#116)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:05:10 PM EST
    he is worser than osmiley. If you are doing it for the good of the site than you are going way beyond what can be expected of someone moderating and facilitating.  Of course all of the american networks are that way.  PBS or BBC, i watched the msnbc coverage on mute because cooper is worser too

    Was killing time (none / 0) (#138)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:09:27 PM EST
    waiting for an e-mail.

    Parent
    Realistically, imo, we know (none / 0) (#177)
    by zfran on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:24:16 PM EST
    why the AA's are voting for Sen. Obama and again, imo, the young like him because he is more their generation, she is more like their mother, or grandmother. I understand why most of the affluent go for him, he "appears" to be an elitest and one of them. That leaves women, lower income, seniors and everyone else in between who seem not to want to vote for him. He doesn't engage them. He doesn't "move" me, nor inspire me (my 19 year old voted for Sen. Clinton), nor do I think he's qualified. For many years I voted party-line. This year, I will not come back to the fold....If that means McCain, may the chips fall where they may!!

    This is the part that confuses me: (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:32:42 PM EST
    I understand why most of the affluent go for him, he "appears" to be an elitest and one of them.

    Do affluent Caucasians identify with Obama as a fellow "elite," or are they assuaging white guilty, or what.  I don't think they are as subject to his oratory as others.  Confusing.

    Parent

    Both (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by kmblue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:34:07 PM EST
    I think.  

    Parent
    It's liberal cultural identity politics (5.00 / 1) (#264)
    by Shawn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:56:44 PM EST
    Similar to how white conservative Southerners and Midwesterners identified with Bush's cowboy act, affluent white libs see a lot of their (imagined?)selves in Obama's academia past, cool manner (very different than Bill's much-mocked empathy), and multicultural background. Chris Bowers wrote a post about this on MyDD shortly after Obama indicated an interest in running.

    Parent
    White guilt (none / 0) (#213)
    by Kathy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:35:33 PM EST
    Plain and simple.  It is absolutely idiotic and as long as it thrives, there will never be racial parity.  It's the equivalent of Wright.  AAs are not children.  They don't need "special rights" anymore than LGBTs need "special rights."  We all just need human rights.

    Parent
    Hear, hear (none / 0) (#230)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:39:57 PM EST
    This is something I've been arguing about for ages, mostly with my younger Full-of-White-Guilt friends. To me, pandering to anyone and treating them with kid gloves because they are (fill in the minority) and over looking their faults/flaws because they are (fill in the minority) is more racist than just treating them like human beings. I'm sorry but a nasty race baiting jerk is a nasty race baiting jerk whether s/he is white, black, brown, Native American, or purple with orange spots.

    I come from a minority background too. My parents are first and second generation immigrants who struggled and made something of themselves. We don't expect special treatment and rarely do we get it.

    Parent

    Maybe Your White Affluent Friends (none / 0) (#251)
    by squeaky on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:50:26 PM EST
    Are supporting Obama because of guilt, but not mine.  The white affluent friends of mine mostly see it as an electability argument, as well as wanting to get fresh young blood into the party.

    I do not know anyone that is voting Obama out of guilt. One of my super rich friends from GA is voting Obama because she hates what the Clintons did to Gore and thinks that Hillary was weak and foolish to stay with Bill after it became clear that he was cheating on her.

    Parent

    Which sort of shows us that being rich doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#288)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:17:39 PM EST
    mean one can't find completely petty reasons for voting, eh?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#311)
    by squeaky on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:50:26 PM EST
    Although she is an exception in that she is the only one who based her opinion on Clinton's personal life and political nastyness. Of course, first she argued all the Obama talking points. My argument was that Hillary is the same and her supporters also repeat similar talking points. After that became clear she revealed that she just did not like Clinton for the reasons stated above and could not trust her to be president.

    All my other friends of varying colors and wealth have made electability arguments because they do not see any difference between Obama or Hillary, my view although I voted for Hillary. They have said much of what BTD argues here along with relishing a big influx of young voters to refresh the party. One of my wealthier friends who is 75 sees the Clintons as too entrenched in mainstream politics and believes Obama will be somewhat more to the left. He also sees them as a Media liability, like BTD.

    Parent

    Obama can't win without catholics and seniors (none / 0) (#186)
    by Exeter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:26:49 PM EST
    The young generation? (none / 0) (#243)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:45:01 PM EST
    Obama's 46 - that makes him a Baby Boomer (1946-1964).

    And as far as the college kids are concerned - I'll believe they'll turn out in the same numbers in the GE when I see it.

    Parent

    I think white affluent (none / 0) (#217)
    by zfran on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:36:26 PM EST
    to for him for 2 reasons. One, they dispise her, and 2, it puts them "above the fray" of racism. I think it also has to do with he's half white. I'm a quarter of few things, maybe that would make me acceptable.

    No words (none / 0) (#238)
    by Melchizedek on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:42:54 PM EST
    On that same show, Mrs. Greenspan said that (none / 0) (#255)
    by Joan in VA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:51:29 PM EST
    Hillary would campaign hard for O to "rehabilitate" herself. Like running for the nomination is a crime. Or the 1 finger she laid on him was so unforgivable. Grrrrrrrr......


    This (none / 0) (#282)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:10:22 PM EST
    is exactly the kind of attitude that is going to provoke an Obama backlash. The media is always working hard for McCain.

    Parent
    That is exactly (none / 0) (#307)
    by LHinSeattle on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:34:05 PM EST
    the kind of comment that I wish would make her NOT campaign for Obama in the GE.   Sigh. But she's too good a Dem for that.  

    Anyone heard Obama say he'd work his heart out for Hillary if she were the nominee?

    Parent

    Obama will be ok in the general election, (none / 0) (#272)
    by Left of center on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:05:52 PM EST
    as long as he carries 300% of the African American vote.

    LOL* (none / 0) (#280)
    by AnninCA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:09:33 PM EST
    I needed to chuckle.

    Parent
    It is really sad that so many of Hillary's (none / 0) (#278)
    by maritza on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:08:15 PM EST
    supporters are racists.

    And you know this. How? (none / 0) (#281)
    by Manuel on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:09:52 PM EST
    black vote. (none / 0) (#285)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:13:13 PM EST
    In declaring that Hillary could never have won NC I think you're a little quick to assume that Hillary couldn't have gotten back a sufficient percentage of the black vote if that had been her strategy, or a part of her strategy. It wasn't, once the numbers started to get to 70/30 she really didn't craft her message with black voters in mind at all -- she was trying to expand her older, white base's numbers -- there were just a few sporadic Maya Angelou appearances and the like. I think that may have been a mistake, since I feel her base might've expanded regardless, but we'll never know.

    You'll know in November. (none / 0) (#287)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:15:55 PM EST
    No, I won't... (none / 0) (#289)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:18:09 PM EST
    ...because I'm talking about Hillary Clinton's primary strategy, and whether she could've hypothetically won NC.

    Parent
    It doesn't matter. (none / 0) (#291)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:22:07 PM EST
    Because NC is red.

    It will be red in November.

    Parent

    Then complain about how it won't matter... (none / 0) (#293)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:24:08 PM EST
    ...to BTD, okay?

    Not to me.

    I was just responding to his post about whether Hillary could ever potentially have won NC yesterday.

    You're off on a tangent, completely misunderstanding the topic being discussed, for no reason other than to be oppositional.

    Parent

    I'm not misunderstanding anything. (none / 0) (#302)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:31:50 PM EST
    You seem to think that she could have won over black voters after Obama's surrogates started throwing around charges of racism.

    She ran on her record, one of which was supporting black people.  Her husband used to be called the first black president!

    But they deserted her because Obama is black.  They have absolutely nothing to go on here other than that.

    Pathetic.

    Parent

    uh - no (none / 0) (#298)
    by Josey on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:27:15 PM EST
    Obama set up his racist strategy against Hillary early on.
    Obamamites, left blogs, and the media assisted Obama - smearing the Clintons as racists.
    The bogus Kantor video was circulated widely in Indiana. Even the IndyStar got onboard and reported it as factual.
    Smearing the Clintons as racists has been beneficial for Obama since it not only affected Black voters, but other voters who are offended by any form of racism.


    Parent
    This is about alleged Obama strategy... (none / 0) (#303)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:32:22 PM EST
    ...and the media. I am talking about Hillary Clinton's strategy. Maybe if she'd concentrated on the black voter margin the alleged race-baiting and media coverage wouldn't have been as effective, or even backfired.

    Parent
    Get a clue. (5.00 / 1) (#305)
    by pie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:33:31 PM EST
    You have nothing.

    Parent
    BTD will you please look at this (none / 0) (#294)
    by DJ on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:25:27 PM EST
    This is what we are giving up
    http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/1/235235/4183

    Thank you

    Meg (none / 0) (#306)
    by kmblue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:34:00 PM EST
    Just go back to giving everyone "1"
    ratings, like you were this morning.
    You'll feel better.
    And welcome to Talk Left.  Not.

    comments now closed (none / 0) (#308)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:34:59 PM EST


    OBoiz reduce HRC's qualifications to Whiteness??? (none / 0) (#310)
    by Ellie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:45:03 PM EST
    Well this is a refreshing break from the last brain-numbing explanation of why Actual Democracy (count every vote, let every vote count) would ruin Democracy. (Lllllllleavvvvve Obaaaaammmmmaaaaaa Alllloooooonnnnnnnnne.)

    I don't know whether this pile-on in the Surrender Hillary "offensive" is more racist or misogynist or a bigoted equivalent of an inside the park home run that went foul at the last minute.

    It not only insults a diverse votership by claiming they're lump racists for not supporting Obama, but wipes away Sen. Clinton's accomplishments in public service, and her hard work earning voters' trust and attributes it all to racism.

    I Hope Obama Changes This.