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What Clinton Should Do

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:04 AM EST
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Whatever she feels is right. She has earned that.

My own view is she should run her campaign against John McCain. She will win West Virginia and Kentucky by huge margins.

She might even challenge Obama in Oregon.

What she should not do, imo, is run against Barack Obama. If there is a path to the nomination for her, and I doubt there is, it won't come from attacking Obama now.

My two cents.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< A Plum for Hillary, A Black Eye for the Mayor of Gary, Indiana | Open Thread >

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    What Clinton Should Do | 239 comments (239 topical)
    Sober and wise!! (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:00:30 AM EST


    McDukakobamadale (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by Palomino on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:00:31 AM EST
    That's my two cents.

    But thanks, BTD, for your good heart and fair mind. It means a lot.

    Obama will (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:17:54 AM EST
    do himself in soon enough, I suspect...

    [ Parent ]
    Good advice and I find (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:01:20 AM EST
    it hugely more acceptable than listening to CNN folks urging her to, yet again, bow out gracefully.  

    Media Darlingism (5.00 / 7) (#7)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:47 AM EST
    The alleged bad two weeks for Obama were saved by the MSM spinning his candidacy.  They are really vested in seeing him be the candidate.  Funny how little his big supporters came to support him during his crisis, he owes a big one to MSM.  

    BTD you called this early on.  

    Liberals buy the MSM craps but moderates don't ... (4.20 / 5) (#12)
    by josephm on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:08:03 AM EST
    Moderates won't vote Obama. I won't. Another Jimmy Carter coming everyone.

    [ Parent ]
    Another Dukakis, you mean ... (none / 0) (#116)
    by Robot Porter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:28:16 AM EST
    Jimmy Carter actually won a Presidential election.

    [ Parent ]
    MSM spinning for McCain, not Obama, IMHO (none / 0) (#114)
    by independent thinker on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:27:27 AM EST
    Actually, the MSM has been pro-McCain. How else to you explain all his gaffs, goofs, and his own bad preacher endorsment getting practically no play? And come on...all we've seen on MSM for weeks is Bittergate and Rev. Wright, Rev. Wright, Rev. Wright.

    With all due respect to Clinton...and she does deserve some respect, the MSM has been all over Obama and acting like Clinton had a stronger chance than she actually had.

    Clinton has proved that she is scrappy, but in the end she lost.

    I don't say this to rub it in, although I confess I have been an Obama supporter for a long time (I began donating to his campaign in $25 amounts like a year ago), but to point out that the time has come to rally around the soon-to-be presumptive nominee.

    Consider that the remaining deligates and popular vote will be roughly split 50/50 and that Obama will wind up with nearly 2000 deligates by June and that failing to rally around the nominee will result in McBush getting into the White House to nominate more anti-Roe v. Wade SCOTUS Justices, the time has come to end this for the good of us all.

    I know if the situation were reversed you would be saying the same thing to me.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't scare. (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:34:27 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    my favorite was (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by The Realist on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:08:00 AM EST
    When Donna Brazile stated that she was an undeclared  
    Super delegate. My A$&, she's undeclared.

    "words are important" (none / 0) (#34)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:13:53 AM EST
    she said.

    "word games" more like.

    [ Parent ]

    On the Unity thing (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:09:58 AM EST
    If Clnton does not want the VP, but wants to call a shot on it, I am not averse to General Clark as the running mate.

    But would women accept this? Would Obama accept this?

    I Don't Want Clinton Anywhere Near (5.00 / 11) (#36)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:14:10 AM EST
    an Obama led ticket.  Not after the smears and sexist dogwhistles from Obama himself and his supporters.

    So, yes, I would embrace General Clark or any other white guy as a nominee.  Just spare me having to listen to how Hillary lost Obama the White House by dragging his ticket down all through 2009.

    [ Parent ]

    Couldn't agree with you more, BDB (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by bridget on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:37:36 AM EST
    I also don't Want Clinton Anywhere Near an Obama led ticket.

    If he gets the nom I could care less who gets the VP position. IMO One thing is for sure. It's not ever going to be Edwards or Richardson who (I bet a fortune would not say no but will never be asked) ... but very likely a Republican. That wouldn't surprise me at all. Bet he has a Repub VP short list while we type.

    [ Parent ]

    sexist dogwhistles? (none / 0) (#130)
    by independent thinker on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:31:43 AM EST
    What sexist dogwhistles has Obama personally made?

    [ Parent ]
    periodically, when she's feeling down... (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Nasarius on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:35:33 AM EST
    Remember?

    [ Parent ]
    and... (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by otherlisa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:39:43 AM EST
    the claws come out.

    [ Parent ]
    "You're likeable enough" (5.00 / 11) (#202)
    by lambert on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:47:32 AM EST
    More importantly -- I think for many of us crucially -- the behavior the Obama supporters online has been absolutely vile. If you'd hung out at Daily Kos before it was purged of Hillary supporters, you'd know. Sexist language, sexist slurs, and everything that the Republicans threw at the Clintons during the impeachment.

    Now, there are rational, nice Obama supporters out there. But they did nothing to rein this behavior in, nor did have the Obama online operatives.

    Since they do nothing, they're leveraging it.

    The online behavior of Obama supporters was one reason I had to go with Hillary -- I couldn't reward that.

    [ Parent ]

    Would Clark accept this? (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:15:47 AM EST
    He's a Clintonite, pretty die-hard.

    And I don't care who Obama's VP is if it's not Clinton. The only way he's getting my vote now is if she's his VP.

    I'm done with him.

    [ Parent ]

    Win-Win for Clark (none / 0) (#72)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:20:31 AM EST
    If Obama flames out as many close to Clinton expect, he's positioned well for 2012.  

    If the anti-Republican sentiment propels Obama into office, he gets to be Vice President.  

    [ Parent ]

    Actually (none / 0) (#101)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:25:57 AM EST
    I was thinking something different.

    From Clinton's perspective, she does not create a rival for 2012, just in case.

    If they win, she won't be running in 2016 anyway.

    [ Parent ]

    Frankly, (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:30:27 AM EST
    I'm sure that Tom Daschle is waiting to make his move. (UGH!)

    [ Parent ]
    ewww (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Faust on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:41:33 AM EST
    as vp?

    [ Parent ]
    Unacceptable (5.00 / 2) (#189)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:44:04 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Good Point (none / 0) (#118)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:28:26 AM EST
    Clinton can decide whether to run or not and Clark would be positioned to run if she didn't or to be her running mate if she did.

    I like Wes Clark a lot.  He worked his butt off for Hillary in NH.

    [ Parent ]

    Also if Obama Does Win (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:29:31 AM EST
    Clinton would have ties to the executive branch.  And she could be one of those democrats in Congress who make the democratic president crazy.  You know by insisting that his healthcare plan be universal and similar crazy things.

    [ Parent ]
    please reconsider (none / 0) (#160)
    by independent thinker on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:37:48 AM EST
    Hi madamab,

    I am pretty new here. I've been over at TPM and The CarpetBaggerReport for quite a while.

    Please reconsider voting for Obama should he get the nomination. Seriously, a non-vote for Obama is a vote for McCain. I understand you feeling...heck, if the situation were reversed and Obama was in the position Clinton is now, I would probably feel much like you. But the reality is that a Dem in the White House far more valuable to us than McCain. Just think about possible SCOTUS nominees in a McCain administration.

    The truth is Obama and Clinton are similar on most policy issues. Not identical, but certainly not so far apart. The time has come for unity in the party for the greater good of the nation.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know (5.00 / 8) (#184)
    by otherlisa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:43:10 AM EST
    I really don't know if I can vote for him.

    I don't know if you understand the depth of anger a lot of us feel towards Obama and his supporters (and his media enablers).

    I know this is stupid, but the Jay-Z references really were the final straw for me. So blatantly disrespectful and childish.

    Plus, I have no idea what it is Obama really cares about, beyond getting elected. Universal health care? Nope. The environment? Um, not so much.

    He's a blank slate as far as I can determine.

    At the very least, he and his team have some serious outreach to do. And I mean serious.

    [ Parent ]

    Hi independent thinker! (5.00 / 2) (#208)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:48:53 AM EST
    Well, this is the first time I've said what I've said tonight. I guess I've reached my limit with Obama at last. (It could be the allergy medicine talking, though.)

    However, I do appreciate your non-confrontational tone when making your argument for Obama. Believe me, I've considered it quite seriously.

    To be honest, I don't think my vote will make a difference in the GE in any case. I think Obama will lose because of Indys and Clinton Dems.

    Obama needs to make his case with those voters, and he hasn't and doesn't seem to want to. We die-hard Dems could all vote for him and he'd still lose.

    Just my opinion.

    [ Parent ]

    No they aren't (4.85 / 7) (#171)
    by tnjen on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:40:44 AM EST
    their positions have never been similar. Obama is to the right. He entertains too many supply-side economic proposals and even the privatization of Social Security. If I want a Repub might as well vote for McCain because at least then Dems in congress will be obstructionists.

    [ Parent ]
    Clark! (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by phat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:45:31 AM EST
    That is the best thing I've heard all day.

    A Wesley Clark VP nominee would make me me less sad.

    phat

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, that's good. I'll match your (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:11:45 AM EST
    war hero w/my General.  

    [ Parent ]
    I tell you who is not acceptable (5.00 / 9) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:12:38 AM EST
    Bill Richardson.

    [ Parent ]
    Hear, hear! (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:13:52 AM EST
    He's a living, breathing, gaffe machine.

    [ Parent ]
    Judas. (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:15:10 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:15:57 AM EST
    A slap in the face.

    [ Parent ]
    What about Hagel? Bloomberg? (none / 0) (#30)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:13:08 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Unacceptable (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:14:13 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    To Obama? They are probably (5.00 / 5) (#57)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:17:37 AM EST
    in his top tier. Hell, he might choose Condi Rice.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama if he gets nomination (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:17:59 AM EST
    will swing so far to the right that the people that made him will not recognize him.  He will go for the farthest right he can get.  

    [ Parent ]
    I hear he'll turn into a werewolf, too. (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:25:03 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Ahh... (none / 0) (#150)
    by Thanin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:35:32 AM EST
    nice scare tactics you got going on there.

    [ Parent ]
    what makes you feel this way? (none / 0) (#182)
    by independent thinker on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:43:03 AM EST
    Stellaaa,

    What makes you feel this way? I mean, if we remove the tense, hard fought campaign from the equasion, aren't Obama and Clinton similar in most policy issues? There are some differences...healthcare, for instance, but on most issues they agree.

    I just don't see any reason to believe Obama is going to suddenly jump to the far right.

    [ Parent ]

    Hell, he's already half-way there (4.66 / 3) (#192)
    by otherlisa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:44:21 AM EST
    Hanging out as he does with economic advisors who favor privatizing social security.

    I already ranted about health care and the environment above, so I'll skip that here.

    [ Parent ]

    Clark could work (none / 0) (#48)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:15:51 AM EST
    But I like my pitch for Ed Rendell.

    [ Parent ]
    I was thinking if he picks a Clinton supporter (none / 0) (#70)
    by magster on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:20:28 AM EST
    it should be from PA or FL, like Rendell or Nelson or Wasserman Schulz maybe.


    [ Parent ]
    Wasserman Schulz (none / 0) (#120)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:29:09 AM EST
    will not be on his ticket. She's from Florida and furious about their delegation not counting.

    [ Parent ]
    Gen. Clark (none / 0) (#73)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:20:52 AM EST
    Is a perfect VP choice for Obama. I don't know that he'd accept it though.

    Other possibilities IMO:
    Gov. Kaine
    Gov. Easley
    Fmr. Sen. Edwards
    (maybe?) Gov. Sebelius

    [ Parent ]

    He'd support it... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:24:27 AM EST
    ...if Hillary suspended her campaign. White. General. Southern. Deal. Lickity-split. Although not taking certain MI/FL deals makes me wonder about certain strategic weaknesses in the Obama campaign.

    [ Parent ]
    Not Sebelius (none / 0) (#98)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:25:28 AM EST
    Who's that female governor of Arizona, I think? Napolitano. Her. Sebelius is a horrible choice.

    [ Parent ]
    clark is a poor (none / 0) (#164)
    by sancho on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:39:19 AM EST
    campaigner.

    [ Parent ]
    What about Webb? (none / 0) (#193)
    by independent thinker on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:44:26 AM EST
    What about Webb?

    [ Parent ]
    I also like Gov. Sebelius (none / 0) (#199)
    by independent thinker on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:46:01 AM EST
    I also like Gov. Sebelius and Richardson. Clark isn't a bad choice either.

    [ Parent ]
    What women would there be? (none / 0) (#81)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:22:45 AM EST
    Hillary Clinton is really exceptional because the political process up until now has simply not produced -- or allowed -- women candidates to reach that level. I don't see a Hillary-supported woman (besides herself) that's really in play for this sort of deal. That seems to be a stumbling block -- of our party's own making -- if there's a demand for a woman on the ticket.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, I'll do whatever (none / 0) (#106)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:26:17 AM EST
    Clinton tells me to do.  pfffft.

    [ Parent ]
    Clark... (none / 0) (#128)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:30:40 AM EST
    or someone like him may be the only way he gets close to the WHouse.

    He's already being defined by the Right in connection to those around him. Clark (or someone like him) may be able to take away some of the sting...

    Though I'm not sure that it isn't already too late.

    And Clark may not go for it.
    "Wit has truth in it; wisecracking is simply calisthenics with words." Dorothy Parker
    [ Parent ]

    Clark was my preferred candidate (none / 0) (#179)
    by rilkefan on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:42:31 AM EST
    Also, perhaps Clinton could work a deal - I'll suspend my campaign today if you agree to accept the FL/MI delegations tomorrow.

    [ Parent ]
    Hm... I think the ONLY path to the (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:10:33 AM EST
    nomination is to attack Obama. It will be dirty and unpleasant, but could work. She has to project a lot of confidence and simply let loose. She has been delicate in her attacks to date, while Obama has been attacking her character non-stop.
    Payback time, IMO.
    Ratchet up the rhetoric against Obama and win WV and KY by 50 pt margins.

    Or Wait for the Media To Do It (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:16:30 AM EST
    Every time they've thought she was done, they've turned on Obama.

    Actually, I think he best path to the nomination is to do as BTD says and hit McCain.  Run up the popular vote, draw close in the delegates and then wait.  Let Obama be the presumptive nominee in June.  There's a decent shot he'll be roadkill by August.

    [ Parent ]

    But, one of the CNN guys sd. (none / 0) (#63)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:18:32 AM EST
    Obama survived Wright, won NC, and now Wright issue is over!

    [ Parent ]
    Heh. (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:21:19 AM EST
    I'm sure that the Republicans will not use Wright against Obama. Or Ayers. Or Reszko.

    Oh wait.

    [ Parent ]

    Yep. Show pictures of the Obama mansion, (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:24:03 AM EST
    give the facts, and let viewers judge for themselves. On it's face, the deal looks completely corrupt, to a layman. You have to be a lawyer to see there is nothing wrong with it.

    [ Parent ]
    Not sure the GOP will want to (none / 0) (#149)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:35:29 AM EST
    bring up the purchase of the mansion w/Randy "Duke" Cunningham fairly fresh in the minds of voters.

    [ Parent ]
    Doesn't it play perfectly for McCain? (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:38:23 AM EST
    In the public's mind he is Mr. campaign finance reform.

    [ Parent ]
    Did you forget the snark tag again? (none / 0) (#216)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:50:54 AM EST
    Gosh it's late. ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    Despite what everyone says she won't do anything (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:18:07 AM EST
    to win, she is too good a democrat. She will do what is right for the party.

    [ Parent ]
    bad idea (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by independent thinker on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:50:06 AM EST
    Look. At this point, attacking a fellow Dem is a bad idea. McCain is just laughing while Dems fight among themselves. The time has come to heal the rift. Look at the larger picture. Imagine a SCOTUS with 2 or 3 more conservative Justices....shiver

    The reality is Obama is the likely nominee. Starting a nasty family feud now is a recipe for a McCain administration in '09.

    [ Parent ]

    Specifically, attack his community organizing (none / 0) (#51)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:16:16 AM EST
    creds. He keeps on saying that his 3 years of being a community organizer are such an important part of his background, and yet he ignored all the complaints about Rezko's buildings in his district after being elected?
    Not credible.
    Show that he is just a dirty pol. Don't forget to use the video of him flipping Hillary off, one way or another. Go down with a blaze of glory, or taken him out. Either way, she will keep the respect of her supporters.

    [ Parent ]
    The time for that has come and gone (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Manuel on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:23:59 AM EST
    The most annoying unfair attack on Hillary's character has been the one about how she would do and say anything to win.  Clearly she could have been far more negative with Obama.  She is too loyal a Democrat, however.

    [ Parent ]
    In tonight's speech, Obama talked (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:17:34 AM EST
    about working around all those shuttered steel mills on the South Side.  

    [ Parent ]
    I seriously doubt that would have any traction (none / 0) (#62)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:18:26 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    how could it work? (none / 0) (#77)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:21:39 AM EST
    Do the delegate math.  It's a simple matter of numbers, of how many Obama already leads by, and how many are left for the taking.

    That's why BTD's advice is good.  Keep going, but let them both attack McCain.  He's been getting a free ride for far too long.  Let the remaining super-d's see how well the candidates do attacking our real opponent, instead of attacking each other, and having to make mountains of molehills because their policies are 90% the same.

    [ Parent ]

    She should continue (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by DaleA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:10:47 AM EST
    to run against Obama. Making sure he is so bloodied, so unacceptabe. that he can not win. It would be nothing like the Republicans will do, but will help. She needs to also recognize that a signifigant portion of her support will never under any circumstances support Obama. This means to quit pushing a unity pony. Maybe a statement like: I respect and accept that many of my supporters will not vote for Obama, and I understand their reasons. But wish that things were otherwise.

    smart idea (not) (none / 0) (#78)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:22:23 AM EST
    She does that, then there will be so many others turned off that she might as well be bloodying herself.

    [ Parent ]
    Has any one confirmed the MSNBC (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by clio on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:12:59 AM EST
    story about no public appearances by Senator C. tomorrow?  MSNBC is the only place I've found it.

    no, (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:21:22 AM EST
    I don't know that this is anything other than Russert shooting off his mouth...

    Does Obama have any events scheduled for tomorrow? the day after? geez! if he's taking a couple days off, perhaps he is rethinking his run for the nomination...

    (pretty easy to start this stuff, eh?)

    [ Parent ]

    speaking of MSNBC and rumors (none / 0) (#97)
    by Nasarius on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:25:09 AM EST
    Love their headline writing: "Clinton will pull out narrow win in Indiana, NBC projects"

    That threw me for a moment.

    [ Parent ]

    I hope this is what she'll do. (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:13:45 AM EST
    At least, I hope she continues to run. I think tonight she finally realized how high the odds are against her winning (what with the media and Obama's and the DNC's gamesmanship), and it was discouraging. She looked sad and thrown off during her speech tonight, as did Bill and Chelsea.  But I hope she will get some sleep and realize that nothing has really changed with her electability argument. In fact, it has been reinforced.

    As for her attacking Obama, I think she will do what she has been doing - talk about the issues and highlight their differences. She gives him a few gentle slaps, but has never really attacked him the way McCain and the Republican 527's will.

    I agree 100% (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by sar75 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:15:32 AM EST
    She should keep running, bringing people out to vote, building infrastructure for the GE, but cut a deal with Obama: no more nastiness. Her final days on the trail might look like Huckabee's, in fact. As long as it's clear she's no longer truly contesting the nomination (that she can't win - let's face it - barring a major gaffe), there is no harm, but potentially much good that could come from her continuing on for three more weeks. I've seen first hand the mobilizing impact this campaign has had in North Carolina - no reason we shouldn't shore up Oregon and work to turn WV blue again (although that will be tough).

    I'm not sure Obama should put her on the ticket, but I think they could cut a deal whereby she becomes the Senate majority leader and gets to shepherd a health care bill with her name on it (it could even be her plan) through Congress.

    I think she's got class and is a good Democrat and will do her best to unify the party. And should Obama lose (which I just don't think is going to happen given the current economic and political climate), she will be almost guaranteed the nomination in 2012.

    Stop the insanity! (5.00 / 2) (#220)
    by angie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:51:39 AM EST
    NC is not a swing state! For crying out loud, Jesse Helms was the Senator in NC until 2002 and if he hadn't gotten cancer he would still be in there -- Elizabeth Dole has his seat now. No way on god's green earth is NC is going blue in the fall. Good grief.
    And while I'm at it -- everyone needs to stop buying into the new media narrative -- Hillary did not have to win NC; Obama had to win IN -- that was the tie breaker. He didn't do it. He still, outspending her 3-1 and with whatever funky stuff was going on in Lake County, could not close the deal. Simply put: this changes NOTHING. They are still in a DEAD HEAT. It is no more possible today for Obama to get to the 2209 delegates he needs to win the nomination then it was yesterday. If anything, this new media narrative is obscuring the fact that the demographics of today's results pretty much put the nail in the coffin for any chances of an Obama win in the GE.  We all need to take a step back, get a good night's sleep, and remember that. Tomorrow is another day.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't think she should suspend her campaign. (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by Iphie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:15:42 AM EST
    Though I do agree with BTD that she has earned the right to do whatever she wants. But I find it untenable that a nominee might be chosen without counting FL and MI. It is undemocratic and I used to think, unDemocratic. The nomination will not be legitimate without without full participation of all states. I'm sorry that Howard Dean and Donna Brazile felt they needed to make a point by punishing MI and FL, but the more important point should be that all voters count and all votes should be counted. Without that simple and most basic concept, the nominee will will always have an asterisk next to their name.

    I really hope that tomorrow is just a day of regrouping and recuperating, and not a day to drop out. Marc Ambinder has her basic schedule for tomorrow, and in his reporting of it, he doesn't seem to take it as a sign that she's bowing out.

    Me thinks... (none / 0) (#65)
    by sar75 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:18:56 AM EST
    ...that a deal will soon be made for Michigan and Florida.  They will be seated as soon as Obama sows this up.  As it is, they can be counted and not change the delegate math or the popular vote total.

    [ Parent ]
    They may do that... (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:22:51 AM EST
    but it's absolutely the wrong move.

    It will just reinforce my decision to leave the party.

    Could they have their thumb on the scale any more?

    [ Parent ]

    I just hope... (none / 0) (#108)
    by sar75 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:26:36 AM EST
    ...that all progressives and Democrats don't do anything to abet a McCain victory. Although I support Obama, I would vote for Clinton in a heartbeat over McCain, because I actually care about policy, on which Clinton and Obama are very close.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh come on. (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:33:44 AM EST
    The die-hard Democrats will mostly suck it up and vote for Obama.

    It's the Independents and Clinton Dems who will carry John McCain to victory. Obama won't get their votes.

    So stop the condescension and statements about how you actually care about policy. We all do. We just don't think Obama will get to enact his policies if he's the nominee.

    [ Parent ]

    He is the nominee... (none / 0) (#213)
    by sar75 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:50:23 AM EST
    ...and one reason is that he's preferred by independents.

    There are plenty of people on this board who have said they will under no circumstances vote for Obama in November.  Those people, in my opinion, do not care about actual policy. And if "Clinton Dems" want to vote against their economic interests, so be it. I won't shed a tear for them when their kids don't have a president who is concerned about them having health insurance.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#226)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:53:26 AM EST
    Factually untrue in almost every respect.


    [ Parent ]
    I agree (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by MonaL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:16:25 AM EST
    And I donated $100 before the Lake County votes came in. Hillary should not drop out, she won Indiana and has the intestinal fortitude to see this through the convention if necessary.  What's the difference between them?  1% - 2%  she still has a chance.

    Send her money now if you want her to keep going.

    Keep going Hillary! (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by MisterPleasant on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:23:38 AM EST
    Just matched your $100 donation, MonaL.

    [ Parent ]
    On the last point... (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by reynwrap582 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:16:57 AM EST
    Re: Hillary v. McCain...

    Since Obama won't debate her.

    She should challenge McCain to an Oregon debate.

    He'll decline but it'll be good for a half a news cycle at least.  Or he'll accept and Obama's campaign will panic and say something stupid like they don't need working-class whites.

    I'm guessing they think people will forget (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:22:35 AM EST
    all the "bitter" and "cling" remarks by November. And now this one where they just flatly said they didn't need working class people

    [ Parent ]
    I hope Brazille's comments (none / 0) (#102)
    by reynwrap582 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:26:06 AM EST
    Are enough for the DNC to run away from her far and fast.  Then maybe we can look at realistic options for FL & MI without her interference.  I know she's not the only obstacle, but she's seems to have been a significant one.

    [ Parent ]
    unless Obama attacks (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by DandyTIger on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:17:31 AM EST
    then she should hit back and keep hitting. And that includes surrogates as well. If there's any nastiness from Donna, Gary mayor, and similar people, then I'd recommend campaigning against Obama.

    Tonight's primary played out like most people thought in the last day or two. A small win in Indian for Clinton and a good size win in North Carolina for Obama. So we're on the same path we were a few days ago. The same holds true tonight, Clinton has the popular vote with FL and MI. Obama blocked the revote. Obama is not electable. So there is a good case for Clinton.

    But of course the party that gave us our previous looser pres. nominees will likely do it again. So I'm bracing myself.

    He won't (none / 0) (#67)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:19:20 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Oh, but he will. (5.00 / 5) (#103)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:26:08 AM EST
    He has been attacking her since Day One. He will not change his tactics.

    Besides, everything is fine in his campaign. Didn't you listen to CNN, The Best Election Team Evah?

    [ Parent ]

    No Way She Drops Out (5.00 / 6) (#64)
    by cdalygo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:18:46 AM EST
    Here is what I wrongly posted in another thread. But again I see no reason that anything changed with tonight's vote. Not until we have hear meaningfully from Michigan and Florida.

    >>She needs to keep running the election through the convention.

    Tonight's victories may turn out hollow for Obama. This sideshow in Gary won't help because it raises specter of Chicago politics. But once it clears away, the theme will return to why can't he get the white working class vote. That will only get reinforced with West Virgina and Kentucky.

    I feel my depression tonight stemmed from how much this reminded me of 2000 with press manipulating stories and calls. BTD, with all due respect I don't want these folks picking our presidents. It's too high a price to pay so I don't see it as a benefit to tout its advantage.<<

    A LITTLE perspective here folks! (5.00 / 7) (#69)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:20:06 AM EST
    Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of NY WON the Indiana primary tonight.  Defintion of win: MORE than the loser!

    WHAT is ALL this DOOM and GLOOM about?!?

    Sbe WON for goodness sake!  A win is a win!  She won PA by 10, he won NC by 12 or 14, she WON IN by a nose!  

    Politics is about WINNING elections. And tonight, Clinton WON Indiana.  How many unbelievable contests have been won by ONE point or percentages of percentages?

    Buck up everybody!  Go to HillaryClinton.com, drop a coupla bux and slam a whiskey shot with a beer chaser.

    CONGRATULATIONS Hillary! YOU WON TONIGHT!

    unless, of course... (none / 0) (#93)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:24:28 AM EST
    you actually count the delegates that were secured this evening.  By that metric, she lost.

    [ Parent ]
    At least be accurate (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:29:16 AM EST
    She didn't lose because of the "delegate math." She lost because she failed to change the dynamic sufficiently for the SDs to take a risk on alienating AA voters and nominate the candidate who could win the GE. Because what Sen Obama lost tonight was any illusion that he has any draw in the demographics that will determine the GE.


    [ Parent ]
    Forgive me 4 (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:35:26 AM EST
    not being a slave to "the math".  I cruised all the news blogs and all those pouting at DK and HP with banners splashed that HRC won IN tonight.

    If I were a super D I would ask Obama how he could lose in his own backyard to where a good portion of one end of the state shares his hometown media market?

    He LOST where he should have WON. IN was the "tie-breaker."

    Tie broken.  Hillary wins...keep on truckin'!

    [ Parent ]

    or the popular vote (none / 0) (#115)
    by Nasarius on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:28:10 AM EST
    Where she's been set back by about 100k votes today.

    [ Parent ]
    Let's get serious here (none / 0) (#137)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:33:00 AM EST
    You can't say she's losing the popular vote metric if you don't include ALL 50 states

    [ Parent ]
    what's the count? (none / 0) (#166)
    by Nasarius on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:39:40 AM EST
    I can't remember where to find the popular vote count that includes FL and MI. By the way, I was wrong, it's closer to 200k.

    [ Parent ]
    realclearpolitics.com (none / 0) (#170)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:40:39 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I'm still shocked by the NC results (none / 0) (#104)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:26:12 AM EST
    I guess I shouldn't be because she was up against a 600 thousand 91% solid AA voting block. I predicted she would win 65 counties, turns out she won around 50.

    [ Parent ]
    except of course for the math... (none / 0) (#231)
    by independent thinker on Wed May 07, 2008 at 02:02:15 AM EST
    Except, of course that delegates (the only measure that really matters) will be virtually split between them in IN, while in NC Obama Picks up a significant increase. Further, Obama picked up a 150,000 - 200,000 increase tonight in his popular vote lead. Even adding FL and MI, which broke the rules (and especially MI where Obama wasn't even on the ballot) won't get Clinton close enough to pull ahead in the popular vote...and like I said, the only measure that counts by the rules everyone agreed upon, is delegates.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama can't win the GE (5.00 / 5) (#71)
    by Robot Porter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:20:29 AM EST
    I think that's obvious now.

    So why should Hillary stop saying it?

    We should just accept our loss like good little soldiers because the media and proggy bloggers tell us to?

    This is why the Democrats lose Presidential elections.

    No... (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Thanin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:26:31 AM EST
    Democrats lose Pres elections because we give up.  Polls, the media, and everyone else said HRC was toast a long time ago, yet look how far shes gotten and its not even over yet.  So just because people tell you X Democrat cant get elected doesnt mean they cant.  Dont just give up.

    [ Parent ]
    Um ... that's what I was saying (none / 0) (#126)
    by Robot Porter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:30:05 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Great... (none / 0) (#165)
    by Thanin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:39:33 AM EST
    Im glad we agree that we shouldnt give up IF Obama gets the nom.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by ajain on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:24:53 AM EST
     She should do whatever she wants to. In fact I think there is no real way she will get out now. She promised to stay in until the MI/FL stuff is settled and she will probably win in the upcoming states. So, I think she should stay in until she wants, but attacking Obama as directly and aggressively as she has been will not suit her case.

    Not a quitter (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by jen on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:26:14 AM EST
    She will not quit. Nor should she. There's so much more to come out about that will sink Obama like a stone, and Hillary knows it. She's in it to win it.

    Didn't come out quite right (none / 0) (#109)
    by jen on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:26:51 AM EST
    Time to go to bed. G'nite all.

    [ Parent ]
    Unlikely (none / 0) (#172)
    by Korha on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:40:52 AM EST
    If something huge and dramatic was going to come out, why hasn't it come out yet? This idea that some killer scandal is going to hit Obama is nothing more than a pipe dream. He already got hit with a load of incredibly damaging stuff. There isn't going to be anything more like that coming, and as the election tonight proved, Obama is still standing.

    [ Parent ]
    I for one say take it all the way (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by Regency on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:34:14 AM EST
    She's a Clinton and they never say die even when they're dying.

    It's easy to be pessimistic in the night, but in a week I'll wonder why I felt this way.  If there is any good sense and order in this world she will be the nominee. I believe that and will work my heart out to see that through to completion. Then, I will work my heart out to make sure she is President.

    The people of America have not given up on Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton, but this American has given up on the Democratic Party.  I've had my fill of misnomers.

    I've just donated $20.44 to HDRC and hope many others will also. It's an uphill battle, but I'm a Scorpio, a veteran of the Clinton years, and I never say die.

    Hillary and Edwards (5.00 / 3) (#153)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:36:22 AM EST
    should start a third party.  Complete populist agenda.  The goal, to keep universal healthcare as the # 1 issue.  Do or die.  

    Where (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:44:34 AM EST
    do I sign up? I've been disgusted with the Democratic party for years. This is just the final straw to get me away from the toothless, gutless, idiots who are currently letting the Republicans steam roller them.

    [ Parent ]
    Agree (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by Manuel on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:50:15 AM EST
    We need a third party badly.  In fact, we need multiple parties.  The two party system has run its course and is no longer helpful to the republic.

    [ Parent ]
    Single Agenda Item (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:53:00 AM EST
    Universal Healthcare.  Obama is gonna sell it down the river.  

    [ Parent ]
    To all (5.00 / 0) (#169)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:40:09 AM EST
    IS it possible not to insult each other or the candidates for one thread please?

    Tonight? honestly, no. (1.00 / 1) (#185)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:43:17 AM EST
    I'm off to bed soon.

    [ Parent ]
    I wasn't the one who was going to say it (5.00 / 3) (#200)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:46:32 AM EST
    If we have any more gracious victors here tonight there is going to be a gun fight!

    [ Parent ]
    Sadly (none / 0) (#201)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:46:32 AM EST
    I think its going to be like this from now until the convention...and beyond. Not saying it should, BTD, but at this point, stakes are too high.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks Jeralyn and BTD (5.00 / 3) (#186)
    by Jane in CA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:43:32 AM EST
    for your dedication to getting the most current and accurate information out there tonight.  Great critical analyses of the emerging situations; I loved reading them.

    Thanks also to all the "regulars" whose eloquent and thoughtful posts made this board by far the best place to be on this election night -- I was literally reading from this board verbatim to my best friend who was temporarily without internet access. She appreciated the comments as well, BTW :)