A Plum for Hillary, A Black Eye for the Mayor of Gary, Indiana

Here's an open thread on tonight's election results. My thoughts are expressed in the title.

Shame on the Mayor of Gary, Indiana for withholding the vote results until after midnight, ET.

Class Act of the night: Mayor Tom McDermott of Hammond, Indiana.

CNN says seniors brought it home for Hillary all by themselves in Indiana. 69% of them voted for her. They made the difference, and they vote in much greater numbers than younger voters.

Comments over 200, thread closed, I'll clean it of chatterers and insulters tomorrow.

< CNN: Hillary Wins Indiana | What Clinton Should Do >
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    Seniors (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:29:49 AM EST
    are among the Democratic Party's most reliable voters. I remember my own grandmother was a high-ranking member of the League of Women Voters.

    I'm sending good thoughts to them.

    So disgusting to watch (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:30:16 AM EST
    the Obama love fest.  Not one impartial or honest pundit.  It's just way over the top.  

    pundits (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Monda on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:32:51 AM EST
    For the first time in the long list of primaries, I have not watched tv not one single minute.  Because I knew it would get ugly.  Just read the blogs.  

    I expected a better night (none / 0) (#40)
    by Chisoxy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:39:33 AM EST
    So I made the unfortunate error of actually watching tv coverage.

    If it makes you feel any better (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:34:58 AM EST
    The instant he is the nominee they'll turn.

    It doesn't make me feel better. (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Iphie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:39:37 AM EST
    I feel worse, and the pit in my stomach is growing.

    I never in a million years (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Jane in CA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:39:51 AM EST
    imagined I'd be stating this, but here goes ... Fox news is the only impartial MSM news source when it comes to the dem primary coverage.

    Of course, you still have to get over the general yuck factor of Hannity, et al ...


    no, it's true. the empirical data confirms it. (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by kangeroo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:49:08 AM EST
    this season is utterly bizarre.

    Bob Novak (none / 0) (#150)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:57:55 AM EST
    predicted this.  i expected one side to collapse completely after supertuesday.

    I think Hannity (none / 0) (#95)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:48:27 AM EST
    just said he has a picture of Obama sitting down with Farrakhan. He's opening saying would this be a bad thing.

    My god what do they have?

    Ruh roh.


    I know! (none / 0) (#188)
    by Jane in CA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:03:43 AM EST
    He also said that there are big Obama exposures forthcoming.  Being that it's Fox News and Hannity, I'd typically take the info with a grain of salt, but I keep hearing rumors about something big coming out in mid-June -- I think there have even been discussions about it on this blog.

    Maybe it's just overblown campaign rhetoric, but why do so many people, even in the MSM seem to be buying into it? Puzzling.


    There's definitely something out there (none / 0) (#215)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:09:17 AM EST
    Don't have a clue what it is, but I've heard it too much from various talking heads.  The Hillary people have apparently been totally confident that it will completely sink Obama when it comes out, whatever it is.  She's been trying to hold out until then, but it will be harder after tonight.

    Bizarro world (none / 0) (#11)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:34:28 AM EST
    because once again to lose is to win, to win is to lose and no matter what the numbers were, they're always not good enough.

    In tears (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Monda on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:31:02 AM EST
    It has been a hard, long night for many Hill's supporters, but I just want to stick to one word: "tie-breaker."

    well, here is a you tube vid..... (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by thereyougo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:31:32 AM EST
    on electioneering INSIDE the polling place with an Obama surrogate in Indiana.

    Aggressive campaigning til the end. Pushy pushy....
    it smells yesterday's sushi.


    meh (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:34:54 AM EST
    Man, (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:32:37 AM EST
    I feel like I've just been on a rickety scary roller coaster ride that I never asked to go on. But at least I can breathe a deep sigh of relief and go to bed knowing we pulled out a win.

    I want to marry Mayor Tom McDermott of Hammond. What a guy!

    I'm thinking (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:35:21 AM EST
    she's going to go on... there may be pressure tomorrow from the superD's and she may need a day of rest, but I don't think she's suspending.

    She should suspend, it's over (1.00 / 5) (#19)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:36:01 AM EST
    I hate to say it, but it is. Obama will be the Dem nominee.

    You said the same thing (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:32 AM EST
    multiple times.  Now go to bed.  

    Sorry to be annoying. (3.00 / 1) (#37)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:39:00 AM EST
    Honest. I'm just not understanding. I'll stop asking.

    Not you (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:44:04 AM EST
    doyenne is repeating the same thing over and over.

    Doyenne is suspended (5.00 / 7) (#135)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:53:57 AM EST
    for chattering. s/he can come back another day.

    thanks... (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:01:02 AM EST
    i figured that out too late. i remain very curious about what happened tonight that would sway superD's to believe that Obama is more electable than HRC.

    Caught in a do loop (none / 0) (#92)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:48:12 AM EST
    You already said this once (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:58 AM EST
    it this thread. Repeating it doesn't make you sound any more correct.

    And no, I don't think she should.

    She won IN. He won NC. Both of these were expected.


    you are chattering (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:53:07 AM EST
    please come back another day.

    Please explain. (none / 0) (#28)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:23 AM EST
    What changed tonight?

    Come together... (5.00 / 6) (#16)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:35:40 AM EST
    Well, we will have to see how we feel about the tone of the Obama campaign, the Obama supporters.  Frankly, I like the notion of not voting.  I value my vote.  

    You and me both (5.00 / 7) (#27)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:16 AM EST
    I've been insulted and abused enough after being a tried and true Democrat since I was 5 yrs old. It's like being in an abusive relationship - and this time, I'm walking away.

    Me three n/t (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Jane in CA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:11 AM EST
    I was eight yrs old (5.00 / 2) (#184)
    by Chisoxy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:56 AM EST
    cheering on Dukakis. I simply cannot vote Obama. I cannot shake the feeling that he will sell out our platform in order to provide his unity pony. His naivete will be a liability at home, let alone on the world stage.

    Me four, five, or whatever number... (5.00 / 1) (#226)
    by NWHiker on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:10:54 AM EST
    I won't vote for Obama. I'm in Washington state, he won't need my vote. I won't vote for McCain either, and I will vote down-ticket. I'll give money down-ticket, though not to Chris Gregoire who supported Obama.

    I'm finding myself saddened by the 90+% AA vote he's getting. I'm Caucasian and have voted for both AA and Asian candidates, as well as Hispanics one (lived in New Mexico for a while). Race has never ever been a factor in any vote. Ever. I am having a very hard time imagining Democrats for whom race is an issue. I find this current situation very sad and I'm not quite sure why.


    I'm expecting a sneering email from my (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:09 AM EST
    poli-sci professor friend tomorrow.
    I'll let you know if he comes through.
    This is a man who thinks Obama's remarks in SF were completely correct.

    i'm a poli-sci professor too (5.00 / 4) (#68)
    by proudliberaldem on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:43:49 AM EST
    Obama's remarks in SF were NOT correct.

    Eh. I read What's the Matter With Kansas.... (1.00 / 5) (#118)
    by Elise on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:51:21 AM EST
    and it seemed pretty dead on back then - and I remember Democrats everywhere pretty much agreed on that.

    But if it helps you attack a fellow Democrat - I certainly won't stand in your way while you disagree with it now.


    It was politically stupid for Obama to say it, (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by Joelarama on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:00:42 AM EST
    especially the way he said it, and the audience in where he said it.

    But I expect any stupid move by Obama to be defended.


    You may have misunderstood the point the ... (5.00 / 1) (#227)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:11:15 AM EST
    ...book was making.

    Avoid playing into wedge issues like affirnmative action, abortion, guns, god, patriotism and make sure working class voters get the sense that you will fill their belly and purses as your priority.

    It wasn't an argument intended to be as an excuse to donors for persistent underperformance in various demographics--certainly not in the perjorative sense that Obama used.


    Hey hon... :) (5.00 / 1) (#240)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:21:34 AM EST

    But I confess...I never read it. And I'm pretty sure that there are quite a few Dems everywhere who didn't.

    But I think one thing the New Yorker pointed out:

    Liberals do not need to know more about nascar; they need to talk more about money and class.
    is relevant to these red state primaries (and yes, I expect both IN and NC to go McCain in the GE). You don't have to go bowling to try and identify with folks. But it's also probably not a good idea to tell them that they cling to religion because they're bitter.

    Frankly, I'm not sure that the Obama camp got what Frank was trying to get across.

    As someone who has been sitting and watching/analyzing the rhetoric flying past, I've been quite surprised at the level of triangulation that has gone unnoticed or unremarked with the regurgitation of the promise of a "new" type of politics.


    Well exactly. I was shocked that (none / 0) (#78)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:45:39 AM EST
    an educated man---in that field---could state that. At a minimum one would want to think about the question very carefully.

    hope he will listen to smart friends like you! (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by proudliberaldem on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:34 AM EST
    LOL.. he should talk to you. I don't (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:12 AM EST
    consider myself expert on any area of politics---I'm just a passionate observer.
    We also exchanged emails about Hillary's "obliterate" comments. He said that the "experts" were all against what she said, and was totally unreceptive when I pointed out that Hillary is the ONLY one of the top three candidates who has (by virtue of her umbrella of deterrence policy) forsworn preemptive war. McCain, obviously not; Obama? He has promised to bomb Iran if necessary to prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons.

    Look, I'm in no mood to hear this talk of party.. (5.00 / 3) (#164)
    by alexei on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:38 AM EST
    unity.  It won't fly with me and it leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.  Obama is terrible and I will not waste my vote on him or any Obama supporters.

    How Old Is Donna Brazile? n/t (none / 0) (#86)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:47:04 AM EST
    Or Kerry! (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:52:03 AM EST
    Agree 100% (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:57:58 AM EST
    Every time she opens her mouth, she increases the divisions within the party.

    Mid 50's (none / 0) (#101)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:49:05 AM EST
    Gary Mayor, Obama supporter is emblematic (5.00 / 9) (#17)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:35:50 AM EST
    Thw whole world saw today the extent to which Obama supporters would go to win. They have been actin like bullies in caucuses, and insulting Hillary and her supporters.

    Hillary should stay in this race until the end.

    A win is a win. Obama called Indiana a tie-breaker. He lost the tie-breaker. Once again he showed that he cannot win rural Democrats.

    Hillary should stay and fight until the last dog dies.

    Exactly right (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:44:05 AM EST
    The true believers worry me.  

    no worries... (none / 0) (#83)
    by jor on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:46:28 AM EST
    ... about any of the other overt hillary supporters on CNN?  

    Primary season is definitely taking its toll on both sides rationality.


    Up is down & down is up (5.00 / 5) (#105)
    by christinep on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:49:21 AM EST
    It has been a strange night. It reminded me of the "bad old days" in Indiana politics when I first voted (for Bobby Kennedy) in the 1968 Indiana primary. The Northwest Corner, the Region, gets nasty.  Beyond that...lets be careful that we don't get head-faked into saying she's done/she's out/she didn't win big enough.  Remember that approximately 2 weeks ago, Hillary was behind in Indiana--that state bordering Illinois with the Chicago market. Remember that Barack was always expected to win North Carolina (and usually by high double-digits.)  Remember also that, while all the hoopla about when-is-she-going-to-bow-out goes on in some quarters, that a salient point made in bold letters tonight does have to do with the white/black voting numbers.  It is a huge fact that Superdelegates may want to wish away because its hard to face or they may face it.  But, lets not go to the cliff yet. Here's hoping that Senator Clinton gets a good night's sleep and a little rest before heading into yet another "demographic" of West Virginia.

    Do anyone think (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by lisadawn82 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:35:58 AM EST
    That the mayor of Gary Indiana was hoping that no one would call the race for Hillary early enough that she would get major face time on national TV before most voters went to bed?  Perhaps he thought that by withholding the votes long enough that she wouldn't declare the win when she did?  Or am I just shooting in the dark here?

    That's exactly what I think... (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by tsteels2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:38:32 AM EST
    He played stupid silly game here.  And needs to be verbally slapped up and down Lake Michigan.

    it may have been (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:39:19 AM EST
    to give her supporters second thoughts about donating to her tonight, so she won't be able to go on.  I wonder how much she would have raised but for his shenanigans in withholding the county vote results until after midnight, ET.

    They claim they were counting votes (none / 0) (#62)
    by Korha on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:46 AM EST
    Not sure I believe them, but there's no evidence really to suggest they're lying.

    That is a point worth considering (none / 0) (#189)
    by bridget on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:03:46 AM EST
    I sent my contribution right after she made her Penn speech but decided to wait this time.

    thanks for keeping us up to date, Jeralyn, cause my TV is turned off and I am not reading other blogs.

    I didn't expect this result today at all esp. after all the positive stuff I have been re the Clinton campaign in both states. It's heartbreaking. All three, Hillary, Bill, and Chelsea certainly campaigned their hearts out. I feel bad ... and I feel terrible for them :-(


    Yes and no. (none / 0) (#129)
    by clio on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:52:45 AM EST
    As I mentioned below fraud is how Chicagoland elections are done.  I suspect the mayor of Gary was just doing what he thought needed to be done - and what he usually does.  His mistake was in not realizing that it was unneeded, unwelcome and far too public with the intense interest and presence of the national media.

    Not realizing that this election was not business as usual was a major mistake.  I'm sure that will be made clear to him.  I also suspect that he'll be very circumspect for the rest of the primary season.


    the mystery of Union County solved! (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:36:32 AM EST
    CNN has 100% precints in, with a 62-38 win for HRC. (Those are percentages, not votes. But just barely. It was ~800-300 in votes.)

    Dude the problems is no US... (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by cosbo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:36:46 AM EST
    it's the 100 millions voters who didn't vote in the primaries.

    We select the candidates.

    They select the president.

    I think we're done until 2012.

    tie-breaker state counted, Clinton wins!! (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by DandyTIger on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:45 AM EST
    It's all about the tie-breaker. Obama and the Obama camp said Indiana was the tie breaker. I don't think he was supposed to tell that inside information, but there it is. With Clinton's PA win, and Obama's certain NC win, Indiana was the tie breaker. If Obama couldn't finally shore up the white vote in Indiana, then he would be damaged goods. If Clinton could pull out an upset in Indiana (always supposed to be in Obama's column), then she keeps her momentum going and shows she's the winning candidate that is electable.

    Well, the tie-breaker state is counted, and the tie is broken. Only one candidate is electable in November. And that's Clinton. Period.

    You seem to be an Okay person (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by lisadawn82 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:38:06 AM EST
    But the person that should be doing the healing is not you and it's not just our responsibility to be doing the healing.  The person at the top of the ticket has to make the case and so far Senator Obama hasn't started to do that job yet.

    dalton, i haven't seen any of (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by kangeroo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:54:41 AM EST
    your other comments, but just from what i'm reading here, i'm thinking the obama campaign doesn't deserve you.  you're better than your candidate.

    As far as I'm concerned (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:03:39 AM EST
    it's not us that need healing, it's Obama.  He just plain isn't a strong candidate. Maybe Axelrod is good at running an election machine, but that's where it ends.

    Nonsense (1.00 / 3) (#133)
    by digdugboy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:53:20 AM EST
    He's doing and saying everything he can. The problem is that the ardent Hillary supporters won't even tune in. Look at the thread about this from earlier tonight.

    Not a supporter of either candidate (none / 0) (#183)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:50 AM EST
    and I have to say that I've totally tuned out. The pathos based rhetorical flourishes don't sell me.

    The swipes are just that--swipes.

    He really is just a politician...and one who sings the same "change DC" tune.

    I've been living around DC most of my life. The only thing that changes?

    ::thinking hard::

    ::still thinking::

    ::still thinking::

    Not much...


    I'm in a state Obama has 0 chance of (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:38:19 AM EST
    winning. There is no way he will get my vote or money if he is the nominee.
    I expect him to lose badly in any case.

    I am feeling very disheartened. (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Iphie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:38:27 AM EST
    I don't know why I should -- mostly it's from the speculation on the other threads about Hillary canceling her morning appearances. How did expectations get so turned around that the results from tonight that a win in IN means that she's dropping out? She was never expected to win NC, so why does this spell her doom? I have no faith in Obama, and I was just beginning to see the light at the end of the Bush presidency, now it's getting dimmer.

    Maybe someone else has a better perspective on things.

    Just a guess... (none / 0) (#99)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:48:58 AM EST
    but I wonder if superdee support etc was contingent on margins... keeping under 10 in NC and trying to get to 10 in IN.  Support may be on hold or people that are willing to endorse Obama may go public if the thresholds aren't meant.  There needed to be a larger shift rather than just firming up an unelectability argument.

    I wonder that too n/t (none / 0) (#147)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:57:01 AM EST
    interesting (none / 0) (#182)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:43 AM EST
    But why make tonight the litmus test?

    it's the delagate count (none / 0) (#130)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:53:01 AM EST
    Hillary was just too far behind in delegate counts.  Her only chance, really, was to roll up a whole lotta wins in order to convince the superdelegates to come over to her side overwhelmingly.  It's just, really, a math problem.  Take a look at all the "delegate calculators" that have sprung up at various places on the web.

    (Making it even harder for her was that you could win a state fairly handily, but only take like 51% of it's delegates, which isn't enough to make up the deficit of all the Super Tuesday and caucus states).


    Delagate count (none / 0) (#186)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:03:26 AM EST
    is not Hillary's argument.

    Obama is being coronated... (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by citizen53 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:41:10 AM EST
    by the media and his supporters.

    I think it's well over for Clinton, barring a hail mary.  Even though she would probably be a better candidate and effective president.

    It will be an effort to be enthusiastic about Obama because I see him no different than any of them, more interested in the money and getting elected by creating illusions of what they represent, while acting in ways that are to the contrary.

    If he thinks he can reach consensus without compromising away principles that have been trashed under Bush and the other side, no thanks.

    I don't want the goalpoasts to be moved toward the center from this starting point.

    They can (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by kmblue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:48:18 AM EST
    put a crown on his head, but that doesn't make him the nominee OR the President.

    And they can say it's over ninety seven times, but it isn't over until Clinton says she's dropping out.

    I'm getting tired of the constant repetition of "Face it, folks, it's over."

    I'm over


    Hold on (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by christinep on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:54:20 AM EST
    Again, lets see how the picture is painted after West Virginia and Kentucky. The media has tried to push its portrait before; and, it hasn't worked.  The world is not CNN or MSNBC.

    Well (none / 0) (#104)
    by Korha on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:49:18 AM EST
    If it's well over for Clinton then, yeah, we should coronate Obama as the democratic nominee. Which I am doing as of tonight.

    Your long-standing skepticism about Obama is fine, of course. As I said before there's a debate here about what kind of course Obama will actually pursues as President which can't be resolved except by seeing what kind of course Obama actually pursues as President. So we'll see. I hope you're wrong.


    I am ot attending any coronation (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:40 AM EST
    Hillary stays in this race until the end.

    If she is forced out by elites, I am changing my registration to independent.


    Not 65 (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by josephm on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:13 AM EST
    I am not 65. I voted Hillary, but I will not vote Obama in the general election. I am 30.

    Kiss Roe v Wade good-bye? (none / 0) (#96)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:48:47 AM EST
    McCain announced he would appoint the same Sup Ct judges as Bush -- i.e., hard core right wingers.  In the meantime, one of the few reliable liberals is, what, 84 years old?

    And you're not going to vote for the Dem nominee?


    I won't. (5.00 / 6) (#117)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:50:57 AM EST
    Especially when Obama has stated that he was for Roberts and Alito anyway. What's the difference? Not much. Holding Roe v. Wade over our heads has lost its power -- I don't think New York State (where I reside) will ever make it illegal, and if so, there's always Canada.

    Yep. (5.00 / 2) (#214)
    by Jane in CA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:08:46 AM EST
    I'm pretty certain that my reproductive rights are safe out here in California as well.

    I've had too many votes extorted from me already with that SCOTUS argument.  It's not working anymore.


    Friendly Advice (5.00 / 6) (#121)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:52:03 AM EST
    You won't convert anyone with this argument. Sen Obama and his supporters have done a lot of damage and scare tactics won't really fix them now.

    Both sides have done a lot of damage (none / 0) (#160)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:27 AM EST
    Regardless of what Obama said about Roberts, do you think he'd nominate such a person?

    Do you really really think there is virtually no difference between Obama and McCain?

    Check out their ratings from various places like ProgressivePunch (Obama gets a lifetime 89, McCain gets lifetime 14); or the American Conservative Union, which gives Obama and 8 and McCain 82)

    A little perspective here?


    You don't get it (5.00 / 5) (#210)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:07:52 AM EST
    I am a liberal through and through. I have voted straight dem and endured loss after loss. But this was too ugly, and I am through. I am not interested in this party anymore. I am done.

    Anyway Obama supporters don't think they need 1/2 the party. So you go ahead, enjoy, and we'll come back and clean up after you crash and burn.

    Enjoy your hollow victory. And don't fool yourself: McCain is the next president. At least I'll console myself with the nice tax breaks.


    McCain is sure more qualified to be president (1.00 / 1) (#200)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:26 AM EST
    let the gloating begin. (none / 0) (#170)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:01:00 AM EST
    Great.... (5.00 / 5) (#138)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:54:09 AM EST
    I would love to see the creative class finally do some real political work and get a real law passed.  Good luck.  

    Not if that nom is BHO (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:21 AM EST
    he was GOING to vote for Justice Roberts until his royal highness was told NOT to do that if he had aspirations of running for higher office.

    Whatta tool.


    The Democrats in Congress (5.00 / 3) (#173)
    by Nadai on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:01:53 AM EST
    didn't even bother to fight Bush's Supreme Court appointees - they rolled over for Alito and Roberts both without a whimper.  If they'd had the guts to fight for Roe v. Wade, it wouldn't be at risk.  Hell, the only reason Obama himself voted against Roberts was his chief of staff pointed out that it'd look bad for him every time the Court made a conservative ruling.  And these are the people I'm supposed to trust now?

    Face it, Roe v. Wade is already lost.  We just haven't got the memo yet.


    The answer is yes (5.00 / 3) (#192)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:04:23 AM EST
    if Obama is the Democratic nominee without the status of Michigan and Florida unreolved.

    A fitting conclusion to the evening: (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:46:06 AM EST
    CNN runs an ad of Nancy Pelosi and Newt Gingrich sitting very close to each other on a sofa advocating working together to fight climate change.  Bizarre.

    Good then (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by Manuel on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:09:55 AM EST
    it doesn't matter if Republicans or Democrats win.

    I saw that ad... (none / 0) (#149)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:57:45 AM EST
    was totally creeped out.

    The worse one (none / 0) (#190)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:03:59 AM EST
    is the one with Al Sharpton and Pat Robertson shilling for the same thing. shudder

    eeek (none / 0) (#207)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:07:16 AM EST
    Think I'm going to have nightmares on that note.

    WHEW!!!!!! (5.00 / 4) (#112)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:50:36 AM EST
    Man, I turned off my laptop, closed down shop and got the animals into the house.  I was kinda bummed out because I thought that  HRC was going to lose IN.  I HAD to turn on the computer again JUST to be sure.  Man i am glad she squeaked by.  Remember, a WIN is a WIN!!!!!


    What's with all the gloom? (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by sweetthings on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:50:54 AM EST
    What exactly changed tonight?

    Obama wins AAs and college kids. Yeah, like we didn't know that. Clinton wins working-class whites and seniors. Not exactly news. Demographics is destiny. BTD has said that over and over.

    Wasn't tonight just one more example of what we've already seen countless times?

    She didn't get a game changer (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:55:48 AM EST
    And if I had to guess the SDs do not have the courage to potentially alienate an important voting block, even if they know that the nominee to be is almost guaranteed to lose the election. So the results have sealed the deal: the nominee can't win (didn't win the right demos), but can't be denied.



    So it is ok to alienate at least four important.. (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by alexei on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:04:25 AM EST
    voting blocks (women,seniors, Hispanics and working class whites)?  Go figure, a perfect lemming maneuver for the Dems.

    hmmm (none / 0) (#145)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:56:16 AM EST
    The depressing thing for me was seeing 92-93 % AA voting for Obama.

    That's sickening stuff.

    It's how we got Mondale and Dukakis and ultimatly Clinton and Obama knocking each other around.


    Are you shocked?!? (5.00 / 2) (#217)
    by tsteels2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:09:48 AM EST
    I'm black and it's been a dream in the black community to see a black president.  It would be the ultimate showing that perceived barriers in America are gone.  I'm a third party guy with a family full of Obama supporters.  A few used to be Republicans.  They see the realization of a dream and are latching on and holding tight.  That's how it works with "firsts"; people see history and latch on.

    It's to be expected.  I know a substantial number of woman who feel the same way about Senator Clinton.


    concern trolls perfect example of how not (5.00 / 5) (#127)
    by DandyTIger on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:52:30 AM EST
    to help Obama. I know they're here to put Clinton down, to feign support or concern, to talk about how she should pull out, to say she's pulling out or canceling events, etc. They seem to be a perfect example of the typical Obama supporters and the way they do things. Condescending, arrogant, and frankly, not that bright. And the bottom line, they're actually hurting Obama. They give the impression that Obama and his core supporters think that way and act that way. Firstly they ensure the Clinton supporters will get pissed and put more effort into the Clinton campaign. And second, if Obama does get the nomination, they ensure Clinton supporters will not support Obama.

    The gloating is beginning. (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:17 AM EST
    seems liek a swarm tonight.

    wow (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Rainsong on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:58:11 AM EST
    Obama still isn't pulling the non-black vote in sufficient numbers, and Dem voting bases appear more firmly polarised than ever. Delegate counts likely to be split 50/50 retaining status quo.

    Donna Brazille's blow-out, an angry biased mayor, hints that Hillary isn't Democrat enough (the Rush effect), media narrative back to Obama as front-runner, with an exhausted Hillary cancelling engagements.  

    Sounds like "Chicago Smack Down" rules to me. Obama has the weaker hand, but is willing to up the ante to such high stakes that opponents fold.

    I hope she just takes a breather, and then comes back for WV.

    Was there any exit polling on attitudes of each block, towards voting for the other, in November?

    There were earlier. (none / 0) (#222)
    by Regency on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:10:44 AM EST
    I don't have the link but I saw it on Faux News and CNN earlier.  An even 50% of HRC's supporters in BOTH Indy and NC will NOT vote for BO if he is the nominee compared to much lower numbers for her.

    Check the Fox News website or previous threads from today.


    just gave more $$ to clinton (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by proudliberaldem on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:58:21 AM EST
    as a show of support.  hope many of you do the same!

    Absolutely! (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by MisterPleasant on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:06:39 AM EST
    She can have my upcoming federal income tax rebate (in advance)

    Dalton, would that (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by andrys on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:58:39 AM EST
    would that most Obama supporters 'heard' online sounded like you.

      While I'm a Hillary supporter and find both candidates excellent but seriously flawed (each, but then they're human and wanting that much power is not your average humble un-hungry person), I have long thought that the only way we can beat McCain and his VP, because of prejudice against both Clinton and Obama, is a Clinton/Obama ticket.  That would have brought out all of us.  It won't work the other way because Hillary does not fit in with Barack's "new" or "change" in the way he likes to frame it -- meaning anyone but Bush/Clinton admins.

      In the meantime, there are another 3 months to go, and a lot can happen.  But again, Obama couldn't close on a state like Indiana, again, even when it was snuggled up to Illinois and surrounded by states where he had won earlier.

      So, it seems Clinton is slowing down her campaign and maybe they can both concentrate on McCain while Florida and Michigan (no longer a threat to Obama) can be seated more or less as voted if he decides to OK that in return for her easing out.  And let the other states vote and we get a sense of electability in necessary Dem strongholds.

      Only if Fla/Mich votes are counted, regardless of Dean's stupid arbitrary rules which threaten the ability of Dems to win in November, w/o Fla and Mich, would I and many others begin to think about voting for Obama because he would represent everything I hated about what the conservatively aligned Supreme Court did to Florida in 2000 for their own gain.

    My reaction to tonight's results (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Manuel on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:51 AM EST
    That's it.  I am registering as an independent and I urge every Democrat who feels that the process was unfair to do the same.  Maybe that will cause the party to try harder to get our vote.  I can't support a party that runs a nomination process in such an incompetent way.  It does not bode well for how they will run the country if they win.  I'll have to think long and hard before supporting the Democratic party in the fall (though I am leaning that way).

    I am not giving up hope (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by MisterPleasant on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:04:02 AM EST
    until Hillary makes it clear that she is done.  Frankly I was not surprised by tonight's results, and in fact I am very pleased that her close win in Indiana will offset most of the delegates that Obama picked up in NC.  I see no reason for her to pull out unless there is some backroom SD maneuver to force her out.  If that happens, my lifelong registration as a Democrat is going to switch to Independent.  Like a lot of others who have posted here, as much as I cannot fathom another 4 years of a Repub presidency, I do not believe for a minute that Obama can win the general election.  

    Hang In - Lifelines from MSM won't Last (5.00 / 1) (#235)
    by cdalygo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:14:20 AM EST
    She needs to keep running the election through the convention.

    Tonight's victories may turn out hollow for Obama. This sideshow in Gary won't help because it raises specter of Chicago politics. But once it clears away, the theme will return to why can't he get the white working class vote. That will only get reinforced with West Virgina and Kentucky.

    I feel my depression tonight stemmed from how much this reminded me of 2000 with press manipulating stories and calls. BTD, with all due respect I don't want these folks picking our presidents. It's too high a price to pay so I don't see it as a benefit to tout its advantage.

    This is craziness, I'm sorry. (2.33 / 3) (#232)
    by straleno on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:14:07 AM EST
    I like Obama, and I voted for him in the NY primary. But it was a hard choice, because I like Hillary, too. They've each said and done stupid things, and smart things. Fine.

    But whichever way you lean (and certainly most of the folks on this site are HC supporters, nothing wrong with that), to say you won't vote for the "other" candidate in November is just self-destructive, spiteful, and, yes, stupid, and I really hope that cooler heads will prevail in a few months.

    You want McCain picking Supremes? You want that fricking hothead's finger on the nuclear trigger? You want a man who's ever more confused about ever more things making life or death decisions on your behalf? To sit at home and pout is not acceptable. How many Americans, innocent Iraqis, Iranians and God knows who else are you willing to let die because Obama hurt your feelings, or because you think he "can't" win? (The reverse is true as well, for Obama supporters.)

    In an earlier thread, someone said they would rather die than vote Obama. My, how dramatic!

    Someone else in that thread said that if McCain was elected, at least it would be such a disaster that it would permanently destroy the Republicans. What seemed to be lost on them is that it would also destroy our country. Wow, I guess that would really show Obama, huh?

    Scream and yell. Try to persuade people to vote for your candidate. If it doesn't work, go register as an Independent. Fantastic. Get it off your chest. Do what you need to do. But in November, be a responsible adult and vote for the Dem, no matter which person it is. Please.

    Hillary needs to withdraw now (1.28 / 7) (#10)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:34:10 AM EST
    She needed a big Indiana win and a close loss in NC, and instead it was the opposite. I supported her, but she needs to withdraw.

    Withdraw my butt (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by kmblue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:36:35 AM EST
    And right after that lovely post about unity.
    I'm not feeling the love.

    No one needs to withdraw. (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:36:54 AM EST
    The game is still on.  Rules are rules. There are still delegates to be counted.  

    She should withdraw and throw her support to Obama (1.00 / 5) (#34)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:38:20 AM EST
    so that Kentucky and West Virginia won't be total blowouts. The Dem nominee has got to beat McCain, not get wounded further. I supported Clinton up till tonight, but it's over.

    You can keep (5.00 / 6) (#47)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:23 AM EST
    repeating it over and over again in this thread ad nauseum but we're not listening. She is still going to win in WV and KY -- even Kos admits that. And until FL and MI are counted and everything settled, it's not over.

    It doesn't matter (5.00 / 7) (#51)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:51 AM EST
    Some of us believe that the path Sen Obama took to win the nomination has made him unelectable. Nothing Hillary does will change that now.

    This is deeply short-sighted thinking (1.00 / 3) (#57)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:05 AM EST
    Clinton could damage Obama much more if she wants to. Happily, she seems to have the good sense not to want to.

    He's done it himself (5.00 / 6) (#67)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:43:47 AM EST
    as have his surrogates and his supporters. Obama does not need HRC to damage him. He's doing a fine job all by himself.

    IACF (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:48:06 AM EST
    reigns supreme.

    We all know that HRC is responsible for anything and everything that Obama does.


    Your rage and hatred for Obama (1.00 / 5) (#79)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:45:58 AM EST
    are counter-productive. Let's hope Hillary has more good sense.

    Your lecturing is counter productive (5.00 / 5) (#89)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:47:55 AM EST
    I guess there's no room on this page for (1.00 / 4) (#108)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:49:44 AM EST
    those who disagree with you. I'm sorry to see that.

    No, not really. (1.00 / 2) (#196)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:07 AM EST
    They can dish it out with great flare, but they can't take it, which is interesting considering their candidate and her husband say things like 'stay out of the kitchen' and 'keep your uniform off' if you can't handle it.

    Oh right (none / 0) (#201)
    by Nadai on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:45 AM EST
    We should bow to your superior wisdom.  How unreasonable of us.

    Why? (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:50:31 AM EST
    Hillary having "good sense" doesn't get Obama any more votes than her.  

    If at some point Obama deigns to ask for my vote, maybe I'll consider giving it to him.  Frankly, that's my decision, not Hillary Clinton's.


    Frankly (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:52:14 AM EST
    Hillary can do what she pleases. I've been told I'm not a real Democrat. I'm not about to fall in line just because I'm supposed to for Unity which only works in one direction.

    She does (5.00 / 4) (#177)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:25 AM EST
    Her supporters are allowed their passions.  But if you want to lecture on being less bellicose, there are these two HUGE blogs called Huffington Post and Daily Kos, where the lessons of being civil are sorely lacking.

    Get back with us when they eviscerate you on trying to be nice to Hillary Clinton.

    And FTR, there is no way you can compare the comments of this blog to the ones I just mentioned.  JM and BTD don't allow it.


    Here it comes (5.00 / 6) (#153)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:58:07 AM EST
    It's all Clinton's Fault.  
    Clinton's going to tear the party apart.  
    It's Clinton's fault if Obama loses in the GE.

    Really, this needs to stop.  He's a grown man, let the guy step up to the plate and win it (or not).  His wounds are his own doing.  He will win (with hundreds of millions of dollars in free press from corporate media)or lose on his own.  He shouldn't need to be propped up by any more of the party, not even Clinton.  He shouldn't need to be carried over the finish line.


    She called McCain better qualified, exploited (1.00 / 3) (#158)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:10 AM EST
    Wright for her own gain, exploited Ayers in the debate, adopted McCain's gas tax holiday, ran the OBL ad, the 3 am ad, etc. etc. and you're pi$$ed at Obama??

    What did Bill say? If you can't take a hit, stay out of uniform? Are you sure politics is for you?

    Pretty soon you're going to hear Hillary denouncing "supporters" like you.


    and this your attempt to woo us to your side? (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:09:18 AM EST
    Pretty pathetic, really.

    Annoying (5.00 / 5) (#56)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:41:46 AM EST
    Do you understand?  You said it over and over.  We heard you rbut do not share your opinion.  

    So ignore me then (1.00 / 4) (#63)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:57 AM EST
    But understand that I am speaking as a Clinton supporter throughout this process. She lost the nomination tonight. All she can do if she persists is damage the inevitable nominee.

    Obama is certainly welcome to close the deal (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by DandyTIger on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:46:03 AM EST
    by winning WV and KY. If he can't, he's done.

    that is a joke, right? (1.00 / 2) (#168)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:00:06 AM EST
    cuz it is funny.

    With supporters like you (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:46:15 AM EST
    we don't need enemies.  

    We need a winner in November (1.00 / 1) (#88)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:47:08 AM EST
    That is all that matters or has ever mattered to me. All this talk of "enemies" is dangerous and counter-productive.

    Hello? (5.00 / 4) (#100)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:49:02 AM EST
    What part of "We don't think Obama can beat McCain" do you not understand?

    There is no reason to be rude (1.00 / 2) (#116)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:50:56 AM EST
    Is there?

    do votes matter? (none / 0) (#202)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:54 AM EST
    What part of "We don't think Obama can beat McCain" do you not understand?

    Obama has more popular votes, has won more states, and has more delegates.

    Are you suggesting that, instead of all that, we should just have a public opinion poll, and whoever comes out better against McCain should be the nominee?  (As if public opinion polls this far out are so accurate anyway?)

    But, you're right.  If Clinton supporters stay home like so many are saying -- then we can say hello to "four more years" of economic and foreign policy disaster.  (Start singing now, "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran", along with Mr strictly against abortion, McCain, who also wants to make Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy permanent, and even expand them!)


    Not any winner (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:49:17 AM EST
    We cannt put our party ahead od our country and support an unqualified man for president.

    that's why we are worried (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by sancho on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:52:29 AM EST
    that obama might be our nominee. maybe he can come out for universal health care, judges not like roberts, and promising to preserve social security. stating those three goals would make me feel better about him.

    Then pay attention. (5.00 / 2) (#206)
    by andrys on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:06:45 AM EST
    Hillary has not touched a number of items that the Republicans will throw out in vividly illustrated form, to mainstream audiences via primetime network tv (not cable news, which does not have a large ground relative to network tv).

      Obama is almost guaranteed a landslide defeat when they do, and you can refer back here later to see you were cautioned re your alleged focus only on getting the presidency for Democrats.


    Then get a time machine (5.00 / 2) (#213)
    by Nadai on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:08:27 AM EST
    and take it up with Obama back in, say, February.

    You're speaking only for you, which is not much. (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by andrys on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:26 AM EST
    Your 'concern' is touching.

    Nonsense (1.00 / 4) (#84)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:46:32 AM EST
    That is total nonsense and you know it. I wish the facts were otherwise, but facts are facts.

    On the contrary, she should win (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:22 AM EST
    WV and KY in blowouts so that it's clear that only she can win in Nov.

    You are welcome to do what you want (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:46:52 AM EST
    It maybe over for you but not for us. We are not fair weather friends.

    Feel free to join the Obama bandwagon.


    I don't join bandwagons (1.00 / 2) (#91)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:48:10 AM EST
    I support Democratic nominees for President. Some of them I have found distasteful, but I have supported them.

    Those voters will vote for him if Clinton (1.00 / 3) (#98)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:48:53 AM EST
    withdraws and throws her support behind him, instead of further weakening him. don't you THINK about what you write?

    No they will not (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:50:37 AM EST
    Clinton voters will not blindly vote for Obama if Hillary is not the nominee.

    Jesus Mary mother of Christ (5.00 / 10) (#114)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:50:42 AM EST
    just go away.  

    OK, I will go away (1.00 / 7) (#124)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:52:14 AM EST
    I'm sorry to see that this site has become as impervious to disagreement as Dailykos. The anger and rage are sad, but understandable, I guess. I think you know in your heart that Hillary lost tonight.

    response to doyenne (5.00 / 3) (#223)
    by christinep on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:10:45 AM EST
    You seem to think we "know in our heart" that Hillary lost tonight.  Well, as someone who has voted for 40 years and been in a number of campaigns, I was close to thinking that earlier...and, then I heard myself say it to my husband...and he looked at me like I was nuts...and I realized that the spin was getting to me and not the reality of a pretty decent Indiana win (given where she started.) I sure hope this goes on, because she definitely gets stronger and he definitely is sprouting warts.

    Don't Bet on It (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:51:49 AM EST
    Most will, but voters often have their own minds.  They're funny tht way.

    I don't care what HRC tells me to do. (5.00 / 8) (#140)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:54:33 AM EST
    I will vote my conscience.

    And right now, Lord help me, I don't see much difference between Obama and McCain. (I can't believe I am saying this.) They are both people who stand for nothing except winning. Obama is not a Democrat to me any more.

    I am very dismayed by the constant gaming of the system that Obama and his surrogates do. The deliberate discounting of Florida and Michigan. The bullying and intimidation at the caucuses. The iffy timing of the results in IN tonight. The campaigning inside the voting areas.

    These are not values that I stand for. I don't want my nominee to win by cheating. I leave that to the Republicans.


    At least with McCain (5.00 / 3) (#161)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:27 AM EST
    we know what we're getting. I'd rather have a Republican who IS a Republican than one pretending to be a "liberal" Democrat. The devil you know and all that.

    I am a life long Dem and I won't vote for ... (5.00 / 4) (#142)
    by alexei on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:55:01 AM EST
    Obama no matter if Hillary asked me in person.  He is unelectable, he has disenfranchised voters and he will sell out anyone and any issue to get elected. Now, extrapolate to those Dems who haven't had any problems in voting Repub and it is over for him.

    Honestly... (1.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:57:12 AM EST
    ...that would be an amazing gesture and would win her a LOT of support (from Obama supporters) for whatever she wanted out of Obama as far as VP choices, cabinet positions, maybe even DNC staff, but it's unrequired of her and I wouldn't expect it.

    Some pundit -- I forget his name, sort of a low-level hanger-on at MSNBC -- suggested Wes Clark would be installed as VP as one part of a deal. I can't think of a more amenable deal for Obama supporters.


    no she doesn't (5.00 / 7) (#30)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:33 AM EST
    There are 6 million voters who have yet to cast their vote. For those who want to her to stay in, go over to HillaryClinton.com and donate.

    Those 6 million voters (1.00 / 4) (#44)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:08 AM EST
    can vote for the Dem nominee in November. There is no way Hillary wins this now. Her momentum from Pennsylvania is gone. Obama has taken some major blows and is still standing. If she wants the Dem Party to cohere, she should suspend her campaign and support Obama.

    Obama should suspend now (5.00 / 8) (#65)
    by DandyTIger on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:43:23 AM EST
    That is the only way for the Dem party to succeed. Obama is damaged goods beyond repair. You know it and I know it. Anything else is wishful thinking.

    I had suspected this might be true before tonight (1.00 / 1) (#72)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:44:16 AM EST
    The results tonight prove the opposite, in my view.

    we heard you (5.00 / 5) (#120)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:51:58 AM EST
    either make new points or move on.

    Count me out of the kumbaya (5.00 / 6) (#75)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:45:03 AM EST

    Let Obama agree to a re-vote in MI and FL. Let him win those states and takes this nomination fair and square.

    If he doesn't agree to that, I will not vote for Obama in the fall. I will write-in Hillary or stay home.


    Me too ! (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by alexei on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:49:56 AM EST
    I took a test to be a US citizen (5.00 / 6) (#128)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:52:35 AM EST
    I cherish my vote. I grew up in a totalitarian regime.  I never ever cast my vote if it does not represent what I believe in or my values.  

    I'm from FL and we're still angry and waiting (5.00 / 1) (#229)
    by Mark Woods on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:12:13 AM EST
    so I just made a donation to Hillary to register my REAL protest against the imaginary world of the MSM Obamaland coronation crowd.

    Meanwhile, folks in Florida are getting set in their attitudes against Obama with every week that passes -- soon it will be 'votes for Hillary or McCain in FL but never for Obama'.

    And while we're at it - Donna Brazile makes my skin crawl because she makes the ghost of Dukakis seem imminent.


    unless those 6mil vote and (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by nycstray on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:23 AM EST
    FL and MI COUNT, forget have a candidate that counts.

    Apparently she's hurtin' for the cash. (none / 0) (#123)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:52:07 AM EST
    Seems to be injecting more of her own $$.

    Don't worry (none / 0) (#205)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:06:42 AM EST
    CNN reported that Obama will be using the money you donate to pay off Clinton's campaign debts.  So keep donating, it's going to be a long a bumpy ride and it's going to cost you a lot of money to keep Clinton in the race.  So dig deep (we're looking forward to W Va) and give often (for KY and PR) and let all your fellow Obama supporters know of his committment to Clinton.

    We thank you and your fellows for your kind donations to Obama that he will be giving to Clinton.   Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.


    I disagree (5.00 / 5) (#54)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:41:41 AM EST
    She should not withdraw. She should stay all the way until the last primary. Let them seat Florida and Michigan. Let the SDs decide.

    Let Obama win this fair and square. Let Obama beat her in WV and KY. He could not beat her in Indiana a neighboring state a place where he led just two weeks ago. The only states he wins are those in which AA vote is a big portion of the Democratic primary.

    He is a weak GE candidate. Hillary will do a disservice to the party and the country if she drops out now.


    He did win states with low AA populations... (3.00 / 1) (#87)
    by tsteels2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:47:05 AM EST
    But admittedly they were smaller states.

    I still think Senator Clinton made a mistake spotting Senator Obama 11-states after Super Tuesday.


    I don't think (none / 0) (#225)
    by Nadai on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:10:53 AM EST
    she did it deliberately.  :)

    No She Doesn't Need to Withdraw NOW (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by cdalygo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:41:43 AM EST
    The whole process is tainted and must go to the convention. No one is ever going to trust anything out of Indiana after this vote escapade. Nor I'm buying that SUSA got it so wrong with two different states. Most importantly, no one should disenfranchise Michigan and Florida.

    Hopefully she is only catching up on her sleep. (Though a word from campaign would help a lot on that score. Yes; I know about email but that could be timed message that went out earlier.)

    After 2000, Dems led on voter rights. We shouldn't have thrown that away due to the whims of party hacks like Dean and Brazil. However, we seem hell bent on tossing that grenade

    But if we do, it will be an interesting time for me and (I suspect) many others. By that I mean I will liberate myself from Democratic Party. As an independent I probably will wield more power. If nothing else, I won't be played for a fool.


    i agree with this: "Nor I'm buying that SUSA (none / 0) (#209)
    by kangeroo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:07:49 AM EST
    got it so wrong with two different states."  the thought of how many votes may have been lost tonight due to dirty tricks makes me angry.

    Hillary Withdraw? No (5.00 / 5) (#73)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:44:26 AM EST
    You withdraw?  Yes.

    You supported her? (5.00 / 4) (#167)
    by christinep on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:58 AM EST
    I doubt it, because your language says otherwise.  Admittedly, I fell prey to "gloom & doom" earlier this evening.  And, then I got a grip and said "Whoa--she won one and he won one." He won what he was always supposed to in the same range as he was supposed to; and, she won what she wasn't originally expected to win.  She is continuing to dominate the traditional core of the traditional Democratic party--working class people.  More & more, the evidence shows that his reach is limited to high numbers of a smaller demographic.

    I suspect she will (2.00 / 1) (#15)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:35:40 AM EST
    I hope so, it would show real class (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by doyenne49 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:09 AM EST
    And Obama will need to teach his supporters a little class. The folks at Dailykos are repulsive.

    It's too late (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:44 AM EST
    It was too late back in Feb.

    I really wonder (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Nasarius on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:41:40 AM EST
    How some of them are going to deal with the almost-inevitable Obama/Clinton ticket.

    If She Does (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:01 AM EST
    It's going to be really embarrassing when Obama loses WVA and KY.

    Well... (3.50 / 2) (#24)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:36:52 AM EST
    ...she won't withdraw, she might "suspend," but we'll see.

    Just what do you base assertion on? (none / 0) (#42)
    by lisadawn82 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:39:45 AM EST

    Conclusion easily arrived at... (3.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Addison on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:53:26 AM EST
    She won't withdraw. Why would she do that? She's got some contests coming up where she'll do well. "Withdrawing" indicates you're out of the race. Hillary isn't, necessarily, out of it.

    She might suspend her campaign, because frankly I think she's out of cash and that problem will likely not remedy itself. Especially if Terry's little, "maybe she lent herself some cash, maybe she didn't" (paraphrased) comment indicates she lent herself some cash. "Suspending" a campaign merely indicates you're entering a non-competitive holding pattern. Hillary's been in a holding pattern -- waiting for Obama to implode -- for some time now. So it wouldn't be much of a change, it would merely formally indicate that she's right there, still in the game, should he implode before the superdelegates have to finally make their decision at the convention.

    We'll see because, well, we'll see.


    Cancelling her TV appearances (2.00 / 1) (#136)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:54:01 AM EST
     is a sign that she's gonna be doing some soul searching.

    Gee, according to you people (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:56:58 AM EST
    she does not have a soul.  So, so much for your theory.  

    believe it or not, i don't hate her (none / 0) (#224)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:10:50 AM EST
    like you all hate Obama. I think she's a fine candidate. I just prefer Obama. Unlike you all, I don't try to tell myself that only my candidate can win. I actually believe in the Democrats.

    you said in february (none / 0) (#237)
    by kangeroo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:16:26 AM EST
    that if obama lost either OH or TX, he should get out.  what's up with you prematurely and unilaterally declaring that things are over?  maybe you just want it to be over, legitimacy of the results be damned, but some of us care about the legitimacy of the results.  so please stop being pushy and dictating what HRC or we need to do.

    It's Over (1.00 / 11) (#93)
    by scatcat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:48:16 AM EST
    Will Hillary supporters finally acknowledge now what the rest of the world has known since late-February?

    It's over.  It's time to unite behind Barack Obama, and to stop letting Rush Limbaugh try to destroy the Democratic party.

    Rush Limbaugh's (5.00 / 4) (#143)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:55:35 AM EST
    not the person destroying the Democratic party. Half the party is doing it all to themselves. If you want to annoint Obama as the nominee, go ahead. Some of us will continue to disagree.

    This commenter didn't "annoint" (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Elise on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:35 AM EST
    anyone the nominee - Obama won by the rules. He won with the popular vote, the pledged delegates, with more states, and he'll soon win with the super delegates. By every single metric measurable he won this contest.

    Obama may have won the contest (5.00 / 4) (#198)
    by Manuel on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:22 AM EST
    but he hasn't won my vote.  In fact, he hasn't even tried.

    Congratulations (5.00 / 3) (#239)
    by Rainsong on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:20:08 AM EST
    By every single metric measurable he won this contest.

    If so, he won without a sizeable chunk of core Dem voters, and maybe he doesn't need them. So, then let him win the GE without them too.

    I wont be there for him in November, and will look at the bright side of being able to join the Great American Apathy Party. Its quiet and peaceful in there.

    In the meantime, I will support Hillary to the end of her choosing.


    You think Rush Limbaugh (5.00 / 6) (#166)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:59:52 AM EST
    is destroying the Democratic Party -- and not people like Donna Brazille?  Now that is a laugher.

    Over in February? Who Knew? (5.00 / 4) (#172)
    by ironin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:01:48 AM EST
    Do you realize just how condescending your comment is? If this election was over in February, why hasn't Obama got 2400 or 2500 delegates already? Do you have a problem with all elections, or just this one? Whenever I see comments like yours, I am reminded of a line from Evita, where Juan Peron laments the "inconveninece of having to get a majority." I'm sorry that everyone didn't fall into line for you, but that's what living in a reasonably free country is all about. You strike me as believing you are superior to most here, but I doubt you are.

    Time to Position for 2012 (5.00 / 1) (#221)
    by ig on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:10:43 AM EST
    Barring another Obama scandal, it is over.

    It is hard when virtually all media is in the tank for Obama. Best option is to let Obama get slaughtered in the GE, and come back strong in 2012.


    Sorry no cigar (4.00 / 4) (#132)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:53:16 AM EST
    Thanks but no thanks for your offer to unite us behind your candidate.

    Did you see the exit polls today? 50% o Hillary supporters will not vote for Obama.


    So you'll be voting for 100 more years of war then (2.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Elise on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:57:57 AM EST
    - as you back John McCain??

    Sorry, but the majority of those Democrats will mourn their candidate's loss and they'll line up to support Obama - just as Edwards supporters did when Edwards dropped out of this race.

    Will some Clinton supporters refuse to support Obama? Sure.

    But I don't know any pro-choice, anti-preemptive war, and anti-torture Democrat who will vote for McCain, or even stay home when the choice is as stark as it is. Even Hillary Clinton will be voting for and supporting Barack Obama - the Democratic nominee.

    So...the only folks enabling McCain in November will be Republicans.


    Gee (5.00 / 6) (#179)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:31 AM EST
    I thought a democratic Congress was supposed to protect us from all of that.

    I would never vote for McCain, but I'm tired of constantly hearing how I have to vote Democratic or else terrible things are going to happen.  I did vote Democratic in 2006 and guess what, we still torture people, we're still in Iraq, and the Senate is still confirming wingnut judges.  So maybe I find the idea that just electing Democrats, no matter who they are, as a way of ending the problems a little dubious at this point.


    Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#236)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:15:16 AM EST
    I was thrilled that we finally took back the Congress and the Senate in 2006. I looked forward to something actually being done in this country. All it was is same old, same old. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. And then we get a nominee foisted on us by the same people who have done nothing but pander, can't win the White House (Kerry and Kennedy in particular), and don't do what they've been elected to do.

    I'm leaving the party and becoming an Independent. I will not vote for McCain but I'm 99% certain that he's going to win anyway if Obama is the nominee. No amount of coercion or fear mongering is going to sway me. At this point, it's a pox on all their houses.


    I read your post a while back when you (5.00 / 5) (#180)
    by Teresa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:02:34 AM EST
    were angry and said you would not vote for Hillary Clinton. Tonight is not the time to appear here to win over converts Elise.

    Mccain won't last another 5 years (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:15 AM EST
    please avoid the hyperbole.

    Don't forget (5.00 / 2) (#203)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:06:00 AM EST
    the Indy voters.

    They are far larger than the Democratic base.

    They will vote for McCain. Add them to the Repubs, who fall in line like sheep, and he wins overwhelmingly.

    Obama is doomed, not by the Democratic Hillary supporters, but by the Indy Hillary supporters, otherwise known as the bitterly clinging white working-class Clinton Dems.

    It is astonishing to me that Obama supporters refuse to understand this very simple fact.


    Perhaps the Democratic congress (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Manuel on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:07:38 AM EST
    will show more guts in standing up to president McCain.

    um (5.00 / 3) (#231)
    by Nasarius on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:14:01 AM EST
    they'll line up to support Obama - just as Edwards supporters did when Edwards dropped out of this race.

    Please, speak for yourself.

    That was interesting (5.00 / 2) (#241)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:21:58 AM EST
    [anti-preemptive war]... but then I went a read your position on how well you feel Obama is doing on spinning the war and it wasn't so interesting.

    FYI, you're problem in November is not going to be with die hard Dems.  Your problem is that there aren't many die hard Dems left as the Party has sold them out.


    That's funny (none / 0) (#234)
    by Nadai on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:14:15 AM EST
    Apparently, I've been marking my ballots wrong for 30 years.  I guess I'm just a slow learner.

    No debate just ads and MSM (none / 0) (#5)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:32:10 AM EST
    So, what happens, the packaging works.  

    BTD, a bit off topic (none / 0) (#8)
    by rafaelh on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:33:48 AM EST
    But do you think tonight's results might help Obama in Puerto Rico? You know how the party machines likes to lean towards whoever they think will be the nominee. We could start seeing less agressive support for Hillary in the primaries if they think her chances have diminished.

    All I can say is this... (none / 0) (#20)
    by tsteels2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:36:31 AM EST
    How is the Democratic Party going to "make it" with two candidates that energize their supporters to the nth degree while repelling each other?

    Maybe I'm just jumping the gun but the passion exhibited from Obama and Clinton supporters feels like a GE.

    McCain who?

    what was the reason to hold on to the ballots? (none / 0) (#46)
    by thereyougo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:14 AM EST
    I don't get it.

    Does BO (none / 0) (#185)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:03:23 AM EST
    have any events scheduled for tomorrow? Or is he sleeping in too?

    I feel bad for Hillary (none / 0) (#219)
    by onemanrules on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:10:01 AM EST
    I cant imaging how grueling it has to be to campaign for so long and hard only to come up short. I look for her to stay in until May 20th when Kentucky and Oregon vote. That way she can go out with a Kentucky win and on the same night it is projected Obama will clinch the pledged delegates. It will also make Obama not look bad in West Virginia. HRC can't really even make the Florida-Michigan argument now because even if they are both counted as voted she will still be behind in popular vote and around 100 pledged delegates behind. I think from this point both canidates will be running pro-unity, anti-McCain campaigns. I really believe both campaigns will do their best to unite the party, it seemed to start tonight with their speeches. I just hope it works. By the way, the Mayor of Gary is a goof. I think he just wanted his 15 minutes of fame.

    Comments now closed (none / 0) (#228)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:11:23 AM EST
    BTD has a new thread up. I'll clean this one of chatterers and insults tomorrow.

    my favorti was (none / 0) (#230)
    by The Realist on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:12:14 AM EST
    When Donna Brazile stated that she was an undeclared  
    Super delegate. My A$&, she's undeclared.

    Jeralyn, re. Gary Mayor etc. (none / 0) (#238)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:19:15 AM EST
    My earlier comment was deleted. For the record, I don't fabricate, or purposefully dissemble. I posted my earlier comment as something I was unsure of and asked if anybody else had heard what I thought I'd heard.

    This is from a post at an ABC forum that I can't link to. I got it by googling Gary + Mayor + "how many votes do you need?". This account attributes the anecdote to a prior primary; which I don't dispute. Here it is:

    Democratic strategist Bob Bechtel just told a story about covering an Indiana primary once and said Lake County is always last because of Gary.  He said he once called the Gary mayor and asked when he'd have the results and the reply was "well that depends, how many votes do you need?".

    absentee ballots and voter ID law? (none / 0) (#242)
    by karen for Clinton on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:46:11 AM EST
    wink wink is his real middle name.

    Barack Wink Wink Obama

    Busloads of people.  They knew all along. They stalled and stalled. Diebold and Andrew.  

    Who drove the cartidges around?