home

CNN: Hillary Wins Indiana

Update: CNN finally calls Indiana for Hillary. 51 to 49% with 99% in. A win is a win, tonight is a split decision between NOrth Carolina and Indiana. John King says it will be roughtly a 50/50 split of the delegates.

****

Late Night Drama in Indiana

Update: Obama won't win Indiana. 98% of Lake County is in, the later votes are for Hillary, it's 65% to 55%. She's still 21,000 votes ahead statewide. 5% of the state is still out, but CNN says Hillary will squeak by in Indiana. More...

Update: Keep in mind, the pro-Obama cities are in for Lake County. It's the cities she won that haven't been reported. As the Mayor of Hammond said, backed up by the NW Indiana Times, Gary, Merrillville, and parts of East Chicago and Munster are the only ones Obama won. Hillary's margins will increase when they report the votes from Crown Point, and the southern towns in the County. (South of I-30.)

Wolf Blitzer also finds the Mayor of Gary incredible and is quizzing him again on why they didn't report the non-absentee ballots. The Mayor of Hammond says the appearance of impropriety is strong.

****

The Mayor of Hammond, Tom McDermott, is a mensch. He's the best guest on cable tv all night.

First thread on the mysteriously delayed reporting of Lake County votes here.

Warning: It's late, everyone's emotional, but keep it civil and don't insult others, make claims of voter fraud (as opposed to questioning the legitimacy of the process)or post false information. My finger is very quick on the delete key tonight when I see such comments.

Where we left off: Obama has 65% of Lake County, Hillary 35%. John King says 17,000 vote difference statewide between them and Obama could win. 44% of Lake County is in, 95% of statewide vote.

The Mayor of Hammond says every Mayor in Lake County except the Mayor of Gary endorsed Hillary.

Carl Bernstein is again the worst pundit on all three networks. If he doesn't shut up, you'll be watching the results on your own, I'm muting the tv.

Update: I'm listening to the Mayor of Gary, Indiana. I'm not finding him credible at all.

Comments now closed.

< Gary Mayor Predicting Obama Surprise | A Plum for Hillary, A Black Eye for the Mayor of Gary, Indiana >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Well let's say this: SurveyUSA fell down tonight (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:52:34 PM EST
    And actually, the last time they made a mistake this big was on a state not so unlike Indiana: Missouri.

    Not a good night (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:56:49 PM EST
    But the turnout model was the biggest problem.

    Parent
    They fell down on the AA vote (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by madamab on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:59:54 PM EST
    by about 15%, no?

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:01:45 AM EST
    That's the miss.

    the voting demos were pretty much on.

    BTW, I predicted a 12.4 % Obama win in NC.

    Parent

    Go ahead, rub it in. :-) (none / 0) (#47)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:03:10 AM EST
    I trusted SUSA. [sob sniff]

    Parent
    Hey, I still love them (none / 0) (#60)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:44 AM EST
    But when you poll so many races, you're guaranteed to fall down now and then.

    I wonder what it was that made them so wrong about turnout? They had the problem here that I predicted they were going to have in PA.

    Parent

    Zogby for VP (none / 0) (#65)
    by magster on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:05:41 AM EST
    LOL (none / 0) (#118)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:14:27 AM EST
    I don't think you want him. He's a Republican IIRC.

    Parent
    Zogby had Obama winning Indiana by 2 (none / 0) (#145)
    by andrys on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:19:25 AM EST
    In that it borders Illinois? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:00:37 AM EST
    ?

    Parent
    Rural white conservative state (none / 0) (#80)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:09:09 AM EST
    with a couple of very black cities that have pretty good turnout machines.

    Parent
    ah ha. (none / 0) (#177)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:26:16 AM EST
    Could it be voter ID law affected results? (none / 0) (#172)
    by catfish on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:24:54 AM EST
    Mayor of Gary (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:55:57 PM EST
    is a buffoon.

    He certainly is (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by IndiDemGirl on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:59:41 PM EST
    He is known as SuperFly to many in the area.  ANd when he announced he was going to another state to campaign for Obama I felt sorry for the Obama camp.

    *I support Obama,but haven't said rude things about Hillary on this site.  Not been banned or suspended.  I just want a Dem candidate and Obama is my 1st choice.  

    Parent

    You got him (5.00 / 5) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:03:36 AM EST
    Hope he can do it in November.

    I have serious doubts now.

    Parent

    Just when we needed you to rally us (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:06:33 AM EST
    I hope Obama is as adept at winning the general as he has been at winning this nomination. I have serious doubts, and I'm not even sure I can convince my own mother to vote for him.

    Parent
    I write what I believe (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:14:25 AM EST
    I was hoping for Obama to prove he can win white voters. If he can't in Indiana, then where East of the Mississippi?

    Parent
    I'm hoping Massachusetts (none / 0) (#133)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:17:06 AM EST
    Losing PA and OH would be painful. I think that might be unavoidable, though.

    I think Ed Rendell is the running mate other than HRC who could make this work.

    Parent

    He will not win Massachusetts. (none / 0) (#209)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:39 AM EST
    Sorry. McCain is already competitive with him there and the Republican 527's haven't even begun to get nasty.

    McCain even puts portions of New York in play.

    It's a complete disaster.

    Parent

    I agree with you (none / 0) (#168)
    by BigB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:23:17 AM EST
    If Obama loses just 10% of the working class white Democrats (I think he will lose more), he will lose the fall election.

    He has not demonstrated the ability expand the Democratic coalition.

     

    Parent

    I have been saying this for months. He is... (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by alexei on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:35:30 AM EST
    unelectable and the Dems seem to want to lose.  The "new" Dem Party is just like the old, losers.  And this "old" Dem is moving on.

    Parent
    Would you like to make a wager, BTD? (none / 0) (#62)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:05:18 AM EST
    Money to go to charity?
    I think many Hillary supporters would like to see how seriously you take your belief in Obama's electability.
    It will at least give us something to look forward in November.

    Parent
    I do not (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:07:11 AM EST
    I was disappointed with his performance with white voters in Indiana.

    Parent
    And I was (none / 0) (#124)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:15:44 AM EST
    amazed that he did so well with white voters considering it was Indiana, I thought it would be much worse.  

    Parent
    BTD took back his claims (none / 0) (#82)
    by Korha on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:09:14 AM EST
    about Obama's electability in a thread earlier tonight.

    I'll wager with you though. I was a skeptic myself a month or two back when Wright and Bittergate were brewing and Obama was tanking in the polls vs. McCain. But he's stabilized now and the 2008 election is still really, really overdetermined for the democrats.

    Parent

    Why can't he, I wonder (none / 0) (#139)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:18:18 AM EST
    I mean I'm white and 40-something. I voted for him, so did my husband.  We do have graduate degrees so does that make us his base?  Can't he win over other whites?  A democrat would be better for them than a Republican.  Is the problem with him or with them?

    Parent
    He comes off like a stuffy professor (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:21:05 AM EST
    with aspirations to preach. Think John Kerry but young, black, and with more "ums."

    Parent
    I always went for those professor (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:23:12 AM EST
    types, so maybe that explains it.

    Parent
    I suspect a lot of it is style (5.00 / 4) (#213)
    by Nadai on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:40 AM EST
    I was an Edwards supporter first and went to Clinton when it became clear he wasn't going to make it.  At the time, I was lukewarm on both Clinton and Obama.  I spent some time looking them both over, and Obama just rubbed me the wrong way.

    He reminds me of those corporate guys from the head office who come down during the busiest time of the year to hold a day-long seminar on personal mission statements and employee buy-in to the latest corporate initiative, and then leaves, secure in the knowledge that he's educated the rubes.  Meanwhile, I'm working Saturday to catch up.

    Everything about Obama just seemed vague and unformed.  I'm not interested in unspecified change - we got change back in 2000, and I'm not real happy with it.  I'm not interested in "hope".  What does that even mean?  What am I supposed to hope for?  What does Obama have to do with hope?

    Some people like that sort of thing, I know.  I don't see the point in it.  I'm guessing that a lot of working class people don't, either.  And it's not just whites he has trouble with; it's all non-black working class people.  If he weren't black himself, I suspect he'd have trouble with the black working class, too.  When you're worried that you're going to lose your house or not be able to pay for your kid's braces, hope is better left for your lottery ticket.  From a President, you want details.  At least, I do.

    Parent

    He keeps dragging religion into everything (none / 0) (#216)
    by DaleA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:41:54 AM EST
    And that offends a lot of us. McCain for all his many, many faults does not. And the relentlessly homophobic AA church does not help with my rather small demographic. I will not vote for him period. Probably vote Green or Libertarian.

    Parent
    Why can't he, I wonder (none / 0) (#140)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:18:34 AM EST
    I mean I'm white and 40-something. I voted for him, so did my husband.  We do have graduate degrees so does that make us his base?  Can't he win over other whites?  A democrat would be better for them than a Republican.  Is the problem with him or with them?

    Parent
    With him (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:24:50 AM EST
    What should he do then (none / 0) (#198)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:33:34 AM EST
    Because he offers nothing (5.00 / 3) (#175)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:26:08 AM EST
    but platitudes.  "Hope and change" is not convincing to people who don't have comfortable incomes. For those of us in the so-called "creative class" who support Hillary, it's a good deal deeper than that.  Start with his campaign's strategy of sliming the Clintons, of all people, as racists in order to win votes.  Personally, I've become convinced as time has gone by that the man is a complete phony and a fraud.

    I hope you enjoy the McCain administration.  Obama has no prayer against him.

    Parent

    And he is stupid (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by dissenter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:28:23 AM EST
    I could point to a lot of examples but at the top of the list is this....Of call people, BO should know how insulted people feel and blue collar workers and Hispanics could not be anymore insulted than they are right now.

    It is called dignity.

    Parent

    He isn't stupid (none / 0) (#207)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:07 AM EST
    and when did he insult Hispanics?  I'll just take your name calling as an indication of bitterness regarding tonight's results.

    Parent
    I agree with the sliming the Clintons part (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:34:42 AM EST
    I think that was a mistake.  I voted for Bill twice and thought he did a good job.  

    Parent
    It wasn't a mistake (5.00 / 2) (#219)
    by Nadai on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:29 AM EST
    It was a decision.

    Parent
    You seem like (5.00 / 2) (#222)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:43:46 AM EST
    a nice person.  But sliming other Democratic leaders as racist is a heck of a lot more than a "mistake" in my book, and especially when the campaign doing the sliming is advertising itself as "new politics" and being all about unity and casting aside divisiveness.

    I'm sorry, girlfriend, but the man is a total phony.

    Parent

    That's right. (5.00 / 2) (#212)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:12 AM EST
    We want to know how he will achieve his goals because if McCain is President, our lives will get significantly worse.

    People who are living on the knife edge, ready to be evicted from their homes, unable to pay for gas to get to work, don't want to hear bumper-sticker slogans. They don't want to be talked down to and dismissed. They want to know that the Democratic candidate will address their issues.

    Obama inspires no confidence in them.

    Parent

    He's Really Reassuring Isn't He? (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:03:42 AM EST
    We couldn't report any of the results earlier because we wanted to make sure early voters were included in what was released.  WTF?

    Parent
    a buffoon.... (none / 0) (#15)
    by sar75 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:57:22 PM EST
    ....or a great machine operator who brought home the vote.

    Parent
    You must be joking (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:58:04 PM EST
    This is terrible for Obama.

    Parent
    Even assuming (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by liminal on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:02:40 AM EST
     that everything is on the up and up, and the mayor just wanted to do a bit of grandstanding by holding back his vote into the wee hours and drawing the world's attention back to himself and his city, the mayor of Gary is a complete buffoon.  He's created a ready made plot line for the GOP to hammer on, and one that plays right into their fantasies of Democratic voter fraud.  

    It probably won't hurt his own constituents in Indiana, since the Supremes upheld their pointless voter ID law, but it might well hurt OTHER poor people - black and white - in OTHER states and localities across the nation - AND that is based just on the appearance of impropriety he created by holding back the vote and grandstanding about it.  

    Parent

    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:05:32 AM EST
    He'll never get Hillary's supporters now. At least not the ones who were already pretty firm it would be difficult, if not impossible, to support his candidacy.

    This feels worse than Florida in 2000.

    Parent

    What about FL 2008?? that's fresher in (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:08:02 AM EST
    memory.

    Parent
    I don't believe Hillary is cutthroat (4.00 / 2) (#27)
    by MarkL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:59:27 PM EST
    enough to play this to her advantage, but what is happening tonight is really a golden opportunity.


    Parent
    Fox is cutthroat enough (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:00:29 AM EST
    Well, she has to make the case. It's been (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:03:49 AM EST
    obvious for weeks that the SD's are perfectly happy to saddle the party with an unelectable empty suit---what does tonight change?

    Parent
    Its funny how she is accused of doing anything... (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:01:00 AM EST
    ...to win, but has actually been the one true candidate that cares about the well being of the party. I don't think you will hear a word about this from her campaign.

    Parent
    Not if it's clean... (none / 0) (#28)
    by sar75 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:59:35 PM EST
    ...if Obama pulls this out, nobody is going to be claiming voter fraud.  The headline will be a "Dewey Beats Truman." The media narrative is already "it's over" - this will just confirm it, and everyone will forget the mayors of Lake County.

    Go ahead - call me an idiot for thinking that BTD.

    Parent

    But I don't think it matters... (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by sar75 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:01:03 AM EST
    ...I don't think there are enough votes left to make up the 16k margin.  My guess is Clinton keeps the W by 5-10k.

    Parent
    I think it is better for Obama (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:34 AM EST
    to lose now in Indiana.

    Parent
    The damage is done (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:26 AM EST
    If Hillary withdraws from the race after this, what's the route to repair?


    Parent
    It will get ugly (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by sonya on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:17:57 AM EST
    if Hillary withdraws.  

    Parent
    It still won't take the stink away and the Repubs. (5.00 / 0) (#191)
    by alexei on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:31:22 AM EST
    have another story line to trawl.

    Parent
    I'm not sure it matters... (none / 0) (#72)
    by sar75 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:07:23 AM EST
    ...but I still think the 'it's over' and 'Dewey Beats Truman" comparisons will overwhelm any accusations of vote fraud, which would likely be cast as sour grapes.

    Just my guess. I really don't know how it would play out if Obama won for sure, although I do think it'd be hard for Clinton to generate a narrative of corruption given that the media has effectively concluded that this is over.

    Parent

    now you re taking (none / 0) (#186)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:30:10 AM EST
    advantage of a gracious host.
    It's not good for Obama.  And Indiana is much more like the way Missouri really went.  Add Wisconsin to that pile.

    Parent
    Done. MSNBC called it for Hillary (none / 0) (#96)
    by magster on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:11:22 AM EST
    she gained to a 20k margin with 99%

    Parent
    But he did close in... (none / 0) (#94)
    by sar75 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:11:07 AM EST
    ...that's a fact. He progressively closed the gap.  There is no last minute wrangling, just uncounted votes that went increasingly his way.

    But thanks for calling me an idiot. I was, though, disagreeing with BTD that an Obama victory in Indiana would be bad.

    But this is all moot - Clinton won Indiana, by a very small margin.  Obama erases the delegates and popular vote that Clinton picked up in PA.

    Folks, it's over.

    Parent

    Um, (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:58 AM EST
    Obama was sure he was going to win Indiana just a little while ago.

    I believe it was HRC that closed the gap.

    Parent

    It's over for Obama (5.00 / 4) (#131)
    by sonya on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:16:35 AM EST
    He can't get enough white people to vote for him. That's the elephant in the room that people are pretending isn't there.  

    Parent
    Donna says (5.00 / 6) (#143)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:18:48 AM EST
    She does not need no stinking white people or hispanics.  

    Parent
    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by sonya on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:21:49 AM EST
    Donna has always been less than mediocre.  

    Parent
    But, this too will be played by the Repubs. (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by alexei on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:32:53 AM EST
    I swear that the Dems want to lose.

    Parent
    Yup. (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:22:38 AM EST
    I have to say that I find it incredible that anyone thinks he can win with his current coalition.

    Even if he gets 93% of the black vote against John McCain in November, what will that matter if Indy whites and Hispanics go with McCain?

    This is why I shake my head at all the calls for unity. We Democrats are not the problem. We could all get over ourselves and vote for Obama, and he could still lose overwhelmingly. HRC gets the votes we need - the votes that all Obama's surrogates pretend never go to Democrats.

    It's incredibly depressing.

    Parent

    How can you say that? (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by daria g on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:43 AM EST
    Abandoned their unions for guns?  The hell?  You know, there are not enough union jobs that pay a good wage and benefits because so much industry shut down.  That is the problem.  I also don't get what is wrong with owning guns.

    This kind of attitude is going to get us killed in November.

    Parent

    What do you mean it's over (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:26:24 AM EST
    Didn't you just 'win'?  Obama supporters are the oddest lot.... you are the most defeatest bunch.  Shouldn't you be on a blatantly pro-Obama site celebrating right now? donating to the DNC with all the new dems and building the party? picking your down ticket candidates and doing fundraising drives? donating to 527s to take on McCain?  So little time... So many, many things to do now that you've 'won'.  Yet, here you sit.....

    Parent
    She was ahead 52 to 48 (none / 0) (#99)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:16 AM EST
    before Lake County.  That isn't overwhelmingly winning the state.

    Parent
    This is totally bizarre. (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by madamab on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:56:00 PM EST
    When have you ever seen a winner not declared after 95% of the votes have been counted?

    When media know it might be only 90% (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by Cream City on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:42 AM EST
    when yet more absentee ballots are found in Gary to come up with 110% in the voting in Indiana.

    Seriously.  Media know, trying to get this Gary mayor on CNN to talk any sense, while listening to the nearby mayor from Hammond calling out improproprities . . . media know that something is up.  They're even sounding sympathetic to Clinton.

    Parent

    Mayor of Hammond (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by OldCoastie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:56:03 PM EST
    says they turned there's in right on time...

    Sounds like six hours before, yet (none / 0) (#218)
    by Cream City on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:20 AM EST
    Hammond votes still not released to CNN.  This Hammond mayor is really incensed, calling it election "improprities" on the part of the pro-Obama mayor of Gary.

    Parent
    if ... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by dws3665 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:57:06 PM EST
    HRC hangs on, does the doom and gloom dispel, or does the perception that she couldn't win Indiana by a big margin doom her?

    This is the first "expectations" loss for Clinton since Super Tuesday, I think (though other more knowledgeable folks may have more recent examples).

    Not so sure about that ... (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by lambert on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:08:23 AM EST
    A 500 vote win in the dead of night in Gary -- with a vote count that stayed at 0% for hours -- might look a lot worse for Obama than a 2% loss.

    People will think, "Why'd he have to do that?"

    And those ballots that go to the airport aren't secured... It would make me more determined to fight on, especially if I had the TX affidavits in my pocket. As I do.

    Parent

    A story from Philly (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by andgarden on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:57:29 PM EST
    on voting:

    This reminds us of an ancedote that Dolores Tayoun, wife of ex-City Councilman Jimmy Tayoun, once told us. When her husband first ran for office, Dolores proudly strode into the voting booth at 9th and Ellsworth to cast her ballot.

    She closed the curtain and -- whoosh! -- a hand suddenly reached in and flicked several levers. Call it the "Hand of Democracy."

    Shocked, an indignant Delores turned to see a man behind her and said, "I wanted to vote for my husband!"

    The man, exasperated at this novice's ignorance of South Philly politics, replied, "How [else] do you expect him to win?"




    Daily Kos (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by bjorn on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:58:12 PM EST
    asking Clinton to stay in for WV and Kentucky so it is not an embarrassing when she wins...it would be too embarrassing if he lost those states and she had already conceded.  Weird huh?

    Kos (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:03:38 AM EST
    doesn't get to make any requests of Clinton.

    Parent
    so that it won't look like what it is-- (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by kangeroo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:06:05 AM EST
    an attempt to prematurely shove her out of the election?  makes perfect sense, actually, from a PR standpoint.

    Parent
    Lake County Demographics (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by ironin on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:58:23 PM EST
    Just FYI, according to Wikipedia:

    As of the census[4] of 2000, there were 484,564 people, 181,633 households, and 126,961 families residing in the county.... The racial makeup of the county was 66.72% White, 25.33% Black or African American, 0.28% Native American, 0.82% Asian, 0.04% Pacific Islander, 4.96% from other races, and 1.85% from two or more races. 12.20% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race. The most commonly cited national ancestries were German (12.2%), Polish (9.6%) and Irish (7.1%).

    Aside to Jeralyn: Thanks for running such a civil site these past few months.

    Are early voters and absentee the same thing (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Teresa on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:58:57 PM EST
    in IN? We early vote on regular machines. He keeps saying early voting but why won't they have machine totals?

    He just admitted early voting was on machines. (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by Teresa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:07:59 AM EST
    Depends on where you voted (none / 0) (#41)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:01:51 AM EST
    The system in Indiana is very antiquated and as the state is controlled by Republicans there is no emphasis on voting improvements and/or access.

    Parent
    You guys need to catch up...also leave your (5.00 / 0) (#55)
    by Teresa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:16 AM EST
    polls open later.

    Parent
    AMEN to that! (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:08:34 AM EST
    Maybe if we can get a Democratic gov this November we will make some progress!  I've been so caught up with the prez primary I haven't looked to see which Dem candidate is winning the nod to got against the horrid Mitch Daniels.  

    I wonder if the Gary is holding up that result too.  

    Parent

    It's at 50/50 now (5.00 / 0) (#86)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:10:03 AM EST
    There are going to be questions about this vote count, I think.

    Parent
    Well, I wish you luck there. (none / 0) (#93)
    by Teresa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:10:54 AM EST
    To be fair (none / 0) (#159)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:22:31 AM EST
    I did vote for Obama, though I like Hillary too.  I just want a Dem President, an overwhelmingly Dem House,  a fillibuster proof Dem Sentate, and a Dem Gov for my state.  Is that too much to ask?

    Parent
    lol, in my dreams too. I think we'd freeze (none / 0) (#188)
    by Teresa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:30:20 AM EST
    in our tracks with that much power (our Dem leaders, not us).

    Parent
    Gary. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by lansing quaker on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:59:43 PM EST
    I always thought it looked sinister when I took the Amtrak from Chicago to East Lansing.

    Now that image rears its ugly head in a tangible way.


    Heh (none / 0) (#48)
    by Steve M on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:03:22 AM EST
    It's largely a ghost town.  Very sad.  I miss East Lansing btw.

    Parent
    For what is worth (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by rafaelh on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:00:04 AM EST
    I read a comment earlier in the night that the Obama campaign expected to fall short in Indiana by approx. 10,000 votes. The comments said that someone in the campaign told this to Chuck Todd. Let's hope this idiot mayor in Gary doesn't ruin everything with his posturing.  

    Wasn't this the same county that held (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by nycstray on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:24 AM EST
    some polls open later for some reason or another?

    And how far ahead was Clinton when Obama called it her "apparent" win?

    Parent

    The world should laugh at us... (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by citizen53 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:02:38 AM EST
    and our moral superiority about our democracy.

    We cannot even have elections that anyone can feel certain about anymore.

    You know (5.00 / 7) (#98)
    by facta non verba on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:14 AM EST
    I am election monitor and have monitored elections the world over, most recently Zimbabwe and there is something that is off here. I am obviously not on the ground in Gary, IN but around 6:30 Pacific I began noticing that the returns were sluggish. By that I mean that normal flow of returns were not coming through as one would expect. Delay is the Achilles Heel of credibility in elections. Look at Zimbabwe. I left Zimbabwe five days after the election and the Presidential race had no returns. Delays are suspect because they are so rare. The two causes of delays are weather or turnout. The latter may be a slight factor but that doesn't account for the Gary suburbs where the count was done early and not released. Delays are the Achilles Heels of credible elections. In Harare or Gary, Indiana.

    Parent
    Thanks for the work (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by liminal on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:21:19 AM EST
    you do, and the larger point.

    Parent
    It is important (none / 0) (#208)
    by facta non verba on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:31 AM EST
    to have transparency in an election and what happened tonight does not appear transparent in Lake County.

    Here are my questions:

    +What is the break in votes between Gary and the rest of Lake County?
    +Why weren't absentee ballots already counted? That's pretty standard procedure.
    +When did the precincts in the suburbs submit their tallies to the county seat?
    +Why was there a delay in reporting those votes once submitted?
    +What happened in Union County?
    +Also the vote count seemed to have stopped in Porter and LaPorte counties? Why?

    It's odd that pre-vote polls were so off in both states, now that could be they got the wrong mix of voters queried. I haven't looked at exit polling to see if it matches results but the exit polls for the past few elections have overestimated Obama by 4-5 points. Clearly NC is understandable given demographics. Clinton at the tipoff trailed 36-2 given 38% AA electorate and that 90% of the AA vote went to Obama.

    Parent

    That has been the case (none / 0) (#73)
    by madamab on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:07:32 AM EST
    since 2000. Or, if you count Chuck Hagel's extremely dubious win on his own company's voting machines, since 1996.

    I never thought I'd see the day when I'd wonder about whether Democrats were counting votes accurately.

    Parent

    It's beyond party at this point. (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by citizen53 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:16:18 AM EST
    It's about the money.  Federal elections should be publicly financed, including the way people vote and the machines used.

    Are we that stupid as a people to insist?

    This includes the way we finance campaigns

    Who is this country supposed to belong to anyway?

    Parent

    it is tempting to say fraud (none / 0) (#125)
    by sancho on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:15:50 AM EST
    but it seems what happened is that whether by design or accident, the way the votes were counted and the television coverage played out made for maximum drama. i dont think there was any more fraud than usual. but obama's "concession" may have been quite a bit of calculated theater.

    if one wants to yell fraud, then one can talk about the way the dems handled michigan and florida and the mcgovern rules and the caucuses to swing the election. this is not fraud either but i dont think it is a good system. no question obama played it for all it was worth and hillary did not defend against this strategy.

    if obama wins in nov., then perhaps dean et. al.  knew what they were doing.

    the process stinks, though, and does not give me confidence that i should vote for its winner (obama, apparently).

    isn't it true that the largest party in america remains the non-voters? if so, i can see why that party is so appealing.

    Parent

    The mayor of Gary (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Iphie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:58 AM EST
    is on the phone with CNN speaking for the entire county -- why isn't someone from the election board answering these questions? The mayor of Hammond spoke specifically about his city, but acknowledged that he couldn't answer for the late reporting of the entire county. How is it that the mayor of Gary can? Why does it seem like he's running the show? And why would he be involved with the counting and reporting of votes from other cities?

    I see Wolf and John King are having an equally difficult time understanding.

    That mayor of Hammond (5.00 / 6) (#69)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:06:45 AM EST
    just said it looks like impropriety and corruption and he's not happy about it. On CNN, they asked him directly if he understood what the Mayor of Gary was talking about and he had no idea. He's not a happy bunny (but he's adorable and seems very smart).

    I liked him a lot... (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by citizen53 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:23:13 AM EST
    though I find him just smart, and he framed the issue correctly.

    This is Obama's backyard.

    I think it's well over for Clinton, barring a hail mary, though she would probably be a better candidate and effective president.

    It will be an effort to be enthusiastic about Obama because I see him no different than any of them, more interested in the money and getting elected by creating illusions of what they represent, while acting in ways that are to the contrary.

    Parent

    What I want to know is where (none / 0) (#89)
    by tnjen on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:10:26 AM EST
    Else in the country has this happened? I have the feeling I know and it makes me sick.

    Parent
    No clue. (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:14:16 AM EST
    But Mayor McDermott was questioning things loudly and honestly. He was not buying the excuses from Clay as to what was taking so long -- and was very upset that it was looking so bad for the entire county since it's got a history of voter fraud in the past (his words) and it makes them all look bad. He kept saying that his districts votes were turned in at 7:30 pm and there was no reason for anything to be going this late etc. It was just wild. I've never seen anything like it.

    Parent
    Chicago... (none / 0) (#105)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:50 AM EST
    ... definitely had a reputation for this many decades ago. I think a mayoral election in Miami was overturned a few years ago too, though I forget for what reason.

    Parent
    Wow. (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by Iphie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:07:20 AM EST
    The mayor of Gary is quite condescending and doesn't like to be questioned -- surprising given his candidate. "I've answered this like three or four times already." vs. "C'mon guys, I've answered like eight questions already."

    Give the man a waffle! (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:09:10 AM EST
    Dueling mayors... (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:10:15 AM EST
    I will take the Hammond Mayor, hands down vs. the Bufoon.  

    Parent
    Be nice (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by Steve M on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:10:30 AM EST
    It's late.  Maybe he just wants to eat his waffle.

    Parent
    Hammond Mayor -- "something corrupt" (5.00 / 0) (#84)
    by lambert on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:09:48 AM EST
    A listener to CNN. Can anyone confirm?

    I heard it. (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:11:19 AM EST
    The mayor of Hammond was fighting the mayor of Gary and questioning everything Clay was saying. It was not pretty.

    Parent
    Finally Senator Clinton Prevails !!! (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by TalkRight on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:09:54 AM EST
    what a crap thing to deny her a victory night..

    These two mayors clearly do not (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:10:18 AM EST
    agree with each other.  The Clinton supporter is rolling his eyes while the Gary mayor is speaking via phone.

    John King his map and playing with it:  was he previously a TV weather forecaster?  Poor guy.

    but...I want a map like that (none / 0) (#109)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:13:10 AM EST
    With an LCD projector, (none / 0) (#185)
    by reynwrap582 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:29:51 AM EST
    a Wiimote, a couple modifications and the right software, you can have your very own!

    Parent
    If she plans on suspending the campaign... (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:10:37 AM EST
    ... it may be that enough superdelegates called today that she felt like it was impossible. I would have liked to see her win West Virginia, Kentucky, and Puerto Rico, though.

    If that's the case, I guess she can sit on the sidelines while Obama and McCain fight it out. If something really bizarre happens (Obama is abducted by aliens, or is found with the proverbial dead woman or live boy), she can step in.

    I hope she continues, but respect her decision either way.

    It would have been great to have universal health care. Maybe next decade.

    It would have been great to have the first (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Manuel on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:16:00 AM EST
    woman president.  Maybe this century before my little girl grows old.

    Parent
    2012 (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by dissenter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:19:45 AM EST
    Obama will go down in a ball of fire and the DNC will be cleared out.

    I expect Donna Brazille to be the star of the next McCain campaign commercial. Latinos and blue collar workers will flock to him

    Parent

    WTF Just Happened in Lake? (5.00 / 5) (#113)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:14:03 AM EST
    Is the Mayor of Gary trying to make everything look like fraud until the last minute because his answers were very fishy.  But now probably sufficient vote for Clinton to win Indiana.  CNN just called it for her.

    I can't decide if the Mayor of Gary is a buffoon or if they realized they were going to get caught and stopped.  Or both.

    The Mayor of Hammond seems like such a decent fellow.  I hope he runs for higher office.

    One more possibility (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:14:37 AM EST
    hold onto the vote so it couldn't be called until after 1 a.m. eastern time.  

    Parent
    That's what it seems to me.... (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by tsteels2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:16:38 AM EST
    They knew Senator Clinton had probably won so they just wanted to mess with her.  Well, can we stop with the voter fraud/Obama conspiracy and just call the Gary, IN major a big ol' jerk with whipped cream on top?


    Parent
    uh no (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by tnjen on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:20:57 AM EST
    it's called shaving the victory. They only stopped because the media said, hey that' looking kinda funny. I bet they've done this other places too and I will NEVER vote for Obama now. There's a reason he's bragged so much about being a Chicago politician.

    Parent
    I'm Not As Sure (none / 0) (#167)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:23:16 AM EST
    Because it appears they released all of the Gary numbers at once.  The other mayors, all Hillary supporters, knew what their vote counts were.

    Wasn't it fun to see the Mayor of Hammond step in and grill the Gary Mayor?  Showed Wolf how it was done.

    And I ask again, why did the Mayor of Gary have the ability to hold or release the vote?

    Parent

    To accuse Senator Obama of this... (none / 0) (#176)
    by tsteels2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:26:12 AM EST
    ...is terrible without proof.  That's one heck of a accusation.  Look, I'm a loopy Green Party guy (CAN'T STAND THE NEWEST GREEN CYNTHIA MCKINNEY) but I would reserve the associations.

    I think the mayor of Gary, IN is a stone fool that took his sweet ol' time releasing information to jab at Senator Clinton.  Especially since folks were watching.

    Regardless, she is the winner.  But I'm not ready to call Obama or his campaign criminals UNLESS I see cold hard facts.


    Parent

    you only think it's terrible (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by tnjen on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:38:14 AM EST
    because part of you wonders if it's true. The problem is proof or no proof -- I have serious doubts about whether Obama's campaign has systematically engaged in "Chicago Politics" throughout this entire campaign and so do others. Texas is a prime example and so is what we saw tonight. The disparities in Washington state are glaring. And what of the missing ballots in Guam, or the 500 spoiled ones that just happened to be spoiled in a heavy Clinton district? Or how Obama started out this election by getting students who lived out of state to fly in and Caucus in Iowa?

    Parent
    you know most of us are not naive (none / 0) (#192)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:31:32 AM EST
    and have learned not to trust the media or many politicans. we have seen voter fraud time and again. you may be an obama supporter, but i am deeply offended by the type of campaign he has conducted. i am offended by michelle's "mean country" comments. i am offended by obama's calling workers "bitter, gun loving, religeous nuts".
    so there are two sides to this story.

    Parent
    or (none / 0) (#169)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:23:49 AM EST
    they figured it would be so late, no one would notice.

    Parent
    Color me paranoid (5.00 / 7) (#135)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:17:44 AM EST
    but considering what Mayor McDermott (of Hammond) was saying, the timing of those votes suddenly coming in while he was questioning Mayor Clay (of Gary) is awfully fishy. If I were a more suspicious person, I might wonder if people who were trying to fix the vote realised their hand was in the cookie jar and it was better to just say 'oops' and walk out.

    It was amazing political theatre and I give Mayor McDermott major props. I hope he goes farther. He was not backing down on any what was going on -- nice to see a Democrat with some backbone.

    Parent

    I'm 100% with you (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by angie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:35:48 AM EST
    I called shenanigans earlier tonight, and this doesn't change a dang thing -- point shaving as someone said up thread -- I'm totally on board with that.

    Parent
    my guess is both. and though i'm (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by kangeroo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:22:40 AM EST
    relieved that clinton won, i'm pissed that this happened at all.  what if the margin was supposed to be significantly bigger for her?  the thought of how many votes might potentially have been lost illegitimately really rankles.

    Parent
    The mayor of Gary can make amends (none / 0) (#121)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:15:23 AM EST
    by "helping." :D

    Parent
    sorta (none / 0) (#123)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:15:31 AM EST
    makes you wonder...

    Parent
    Maybe it was a ploy... (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:14:08 AM EST
    ... to push her victory out of prime time and set the media narrative for the next day?

    Right---had to be pre-planned, and it (5.00 / 4) (#122)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:15:28 AM EST
    explains Obama's smirking congratulations---he knew that Hillary would not be able to claim victory.

    Parent
    The head of the Republican party was quoted (none / 0) (#136)
    by debrazza on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:17:51 AM EST
    saying that no shenanigans were going on.  So I think these people are just rather incompetent.  The demographics seem to be coming in from Lake as expected, so it does not look like anything bad happened.

    Parent
    That's not credible. Why were the (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:18:40 AM EST
    pro-Clinton cities' results held back?

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 4) (#158)
    by janarchy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:22:24 AM EST
    The Mayor of Hammond said his city went for Hillary and they knew it at 7:30 pm. He was quoting other cities totals like chapter and verse. So why weren't those numbers released earlier? No one had a logical answer, least of all the Mayor of Gary.

    Parent
    That's What I Think (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:17:31 AM EST
    Because the Mayor had no answer as to why he hadn't released the machine votes.  11,000 absentee voters wouldn't have been enough to keep the state from being called for Clinton.

    Parent
    Also Notice the Gary Results (5.00 / 0) (#142)
    by BDB on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:18:47 AM EST
    Which dramatically decreased her lead in half also added to the delay.  When we know from the Hammond Mayor that the other votes were available for release.

    Parent
    Lake County 98 percent counted BO 55 vs C 45 (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Prabhata on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:14:53 AM EST
    vote for lake per cnn
    66265 for BO
    53310 for Clinton

    I think Clinton has too many votes to make them disappear


    so ... (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:16:16 AM EST
    Does this dispel the doom and gloom or not? She won, and he did not make any inroads into white working class voters. That sounds like it should be bad for him, not her, yet the "it's over" meme abounds.

    Pay no (none / 0) (#166)
    by kmblue on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:23:14 AM EST
    attention to that sar75
    behind the curtain. ;)

    Parent
    i don't understand... (none / 0) (#190)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:30:49 AM EST
    your comment.

    Parent
    I'm guessing (none / 0) (#200)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:34:26 AM EST
    a comment from sar75 is missing.

    Parent
    Hillary Clinton wins Indiana (5.00 / 0) (#138)
    by rafaelh on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:18:15 AM EST
    NBC and CNN call it. Ugh, I'm happy about the results of the night but I would have preferred to avoid all the mess with this Gary mayor. He left a bad mark on the process with his grandstanding.

    with friends like the Gary mayor (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by DandyTIger on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:19:04 AM EST
    I don't know what Obama supporters think they're doing, but the Mayor of Gary and earlier tonight, Donna, and a few others, but they're not helping him. Jeez.

    So I've been holding my breath the entire evening. All I can say is, wow. And whew.

    Of course keep in mind, just days ago Obama was supposed to win Indiana and win NC by 20 or more points. And I think the trouble with Obama's electability has not improved. Button line, he can't win the general with these numbers. And Brazil seems to want to make it worse.

    Next stop, WV and KY!

    Bob Beckel on Fox tonight (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:19:53 AM EST
    "I remember having done a presidential primary there, and Gary and Lake County is always the last one to report.  And I called up the mayor, whose name will go unspoken, and said, Mayor, when are you going to call in your votes?  He said, As soon as you tell me how many you need. And so I figured that may be part of what's going on."

    I don't think all that much of Beckel, but I was surprised after I heard him say that to come over here and find this thread.

    That's hilarious (5.00 / 0) (#157)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:22:20 AM EST
    and more than a little disconcerting.

    Parent
    So much for the theory that Obama's (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:22:19 AM EST
    numbers always get better if he campaigns, eh?


    If he has a magic mayor in every state (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:23:02 AM EST
    he might just win in November. . .

    Parent
    I feel like this November is going to be (none / 0) (#170)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:24:06 AM EST
    a contest between Bush-Lite and Bush-Lightweight.


    Parent
    I hope that kos is right (none / 0) (#173)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:25:31 AM EST
    and that McCain comes off like Jim Bunning. I wouldn't bet on it.

    Parent
    I wonder about McCain's stamina; (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by MarkL on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:27:56 AM EST
    beyond that, Obama is almost the perfect candidate for him to run against. Obama will be mocked to the skies---using his own preposterous words---the "nobody has done more for X than me"; the "I'm qualified to be CIC because Indonesia; and on and on. McCain will serenely declare his personal respect for Obama while his minions rip him to shreds.


    Parent
    McCain will cry all the way to November (5.00 / 1) (#223)
    by daryl herbert on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:43:52 AM EST
    about how sad and unfair it is that Republican 527s and the RNC and the state GOP apparatuses are accusing Sen. Obama of being a former Muslim, friend to communists, friend to unrepentant terrorists, mentee to a radical black preacher, member of TUCC (current pastor has the same views as Rev. Wright), elitist, limousine liberal, etc.

    Sen. McCain will regret that the campaign isn't being conducted at a higher level.  He may even condemn the 527s.

    But he can't stop them.  In fact, if he called them up and asked them to stop, that would be illegal (it's illegal for a presidential candidate to coordinate with 527s).

    Sen. McCain will cry fake tears all the way to election day.

    Parent

    Gary mayor (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by DaveOinSF on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:22:35 AM EST
    I think the Gary mayor tried to manipulate it so that Obama would have a lead momentarily.  So they held out the whole county until the state was almost completely reported and, when they did, they released only Gary results before the pro-Hillary results.

    The CNN mayors appearance (5.00 / 0) (#181)
    by lambert on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:27:40 AM EST
    One of my posters summarizes it this way, and I'd love to have the transcript:

    Is unable to answer why reporting the votes is taking so long. He says it's the absentees but cannot explain why the other ballots weren't released earlier.

    He's making it look worse.

    The Mayor of Hammond says they knew what the machine votes in other cities were at 7:30. It's midnight and we don't have any information and it looks bad. This looks improper. I'm not saying it is, but it looks. We don't need this kind of negative exposure in Lake County. He's telling the Mayor of Gary to release the numbers.

    Here's a question, why does the Mayor of Gary have the ability to hold the votes.

    Now the Mayor of Hammond is trying to get the Mayor of Gary to tell why he hasn't released the machine votes. Mayor of Gary says it's absentee counting. Mayor of Hammond is grilling him. Has no answer why it is taking so long to count the vote.


    That looks bad. Lots of CNN transcripts to get!

    The NWI blog... (none / 0) (#2)
    by OrangeFur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:54:15 PM EST
    ... says that all of Gary has been counted. It's now left to other parts of Lake County.

    what does it say ... (none / 0) (#34)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:00:14 AM EST
    about Union Co? CNN's map has no precincts reporting there.

    Parent
    I assume nobody lives there... (none / 0) (#42)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:02:10 AM EST
    well... (5.00 / 0) (#58)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:42 AM EST
    not many. ~7000 folks per the quickfacts.census.gov site.

    Just wondering.

    Parent

    Union County (and Kos) (none / 0) (#83)
    by ironin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:09:30 AM EST
    Union County has a population of about 7,300. I think it is safe to assume they operate like the London city government does, decided it wasn't worth paying overtime, and will get around to counting ballots tomorrow ;-)

    As for Kos's comment: he's wrong - better to find out now than in November that the candidate can't beat "None of the Above."

    Parent

    We've heard from Union (none / 0) (#189)
    by Rhouse on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:30:40 AM EST
    Finally they showed up and voted 68% for Hillary (803 votes) to 32% for Obama (383 votes).  So who ever kidnaped them must have put them back, and now I can go to sleep and let the wife know who took this battle.  All I can do now is give her (Hillary), some more money from the next SSI disability check.  (Oh and remind all my relatives in West Virginia to go vote!)

    Parent
    Hallelujah! (none / 0) (#217)
    by ironin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:18 AM EST
    Thanks for the update! I was worried about them, too, after hearing rumors of a swarm of unidentifiable lights hovering over the county.  If they were playing a high-stakes game with Gary's mayor, they are very good poker players indeed, given their 1,000 votes vs. the 100,000 he had charge of. ;-)

    Parent
    man, (none / 0) (#3)
    by OldCoastie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:54:41 PM EST
    those numbers are coming in slow...

    mayor of Gary is on the phone on cnn

    He should be on the phone with the AG. (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by MarkL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:55:33 PM EST
    He kept blaming absentee votes (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by myiq2xu on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:01:25 AM EST
    for the delay.  They kept asking him, he kept repeating.

    But what's the delay on all the other votes?

    Parent

    So, early voting, (none / 0) (#7)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:55:55 PM EST
    why don't they count it first?  

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#5)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:55:43 PM EST
    it's 56% in now. 65 for Obama, 35 for Hillary.

    Clinton has cancelled entire schedule (none / 0) (#6)
    by bjorn on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:55:47 PM EST
    tomorrow

    Uh oh... (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by OrangeFur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:57:20 PM EST
    I really don't like the sound of that.

    Parent
    Probably suspending the campaign (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by dissenter on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:58:42 PM EST
    I bet a boatload of SDs are gonna unload tomorrow. Hope she makes a deal for the majority leader job. We are gonna need her.

    Parent
    Bill and Chelsea (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:02:15 AM EST
    looked pretty sad this evening during her speech. I am hoping they are just very tired.

    Parent
    I thought (none / 0) (#53)
    by dissenter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:03:53 AM EST
    It looked like the swan song. My mom thought so too.  Sad but she is better getting out now otherwise when Obama loses in Nov they will just blame her.

    Make a deal Hil. Get Reid's job.

    Parent

    Not sure... (none / 0) (#57)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:40 AM EST
    ... that she wants it or Harry Reid doesn't.

    Parent
    Majority Leader (none / 0) (#74)
    by dissenter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:07:39 AM EST
    Hell ya she would take that. She sure isn't gonna be Obama's VP. I mean I would even lose respect for her at that  point. Reid has been a total disaster. My republican father calls him the gift that just keeps giving.

    Parent
    it would be nice to have her (none / 0) (#115)
    by kangeroo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:14:13 AM EST
    take over reid's job.  god knows he's f'ing incompetent.

    Parent
    Sigh. (none / 0) (#19)
    by liminal on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:58:07 PM EST
    That's depressing.  I did just get an e-mail from WV for Hillary about upcoming events, but obviously they aren't in on high level campaign decisions.  

    Parent
    Just morning show apperances? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Esme on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:58:30 PM EST
    What about the fundraiser she was supposed to do with Chelsea tomorrow?

    Parent
    Where did you hear that? (none / 0) (#24)
    by OrangeFur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:58:41 PM EST
    Tim Russert, he did say that she (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by bjorn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:00:08 AM EST
    would still do the fundraiser but that was it...

    Parent
    Personally, I'd withhold my check (none / 0) (#44)
    by andgarden on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:02:31 AM EST
    They are probably big donors (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by dissenter on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:05:36 AM EST
    They can probably afford to help her retire debt. At the end of the day that gets the staff and bills paid.

    Parent
    Politico... (none / 0) (#54)
    by OrangeFur on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:01 AM EST
    ... reports that according to Russert she's cancelled her morning show appearances.

    Were there other campaign events that she cancelled as well?

    Parent

    I don't think Obama gets it... (none / 0) (#11)
    by sar75 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:56:25 PM EST
    ...I think he'd have to win 70% of the remaining votes, which just doesn't seem likely.  Clinton will probably keep Indiana by 5-10k votes, although then there are supposedly 20% absentee ballots still out there too. Still, I think she keeps the W here.

    Looks like Zogby did well here and caught a last minute Obama surge, despite the fact that late deciders supposedly went to Clinton. My guess is he gained some traction on the gas tax debate (working folks understood the superior argument) and recovered somewhat from Wright.  Just a guess...

    Any data to back that up? (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by lambert on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:57:36 PM EST
    Because I'd certainly like to see it.

    Parent
    It was just a guess... (none / 0) (#59)
    by sar75 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:43 AM EST
    ...I think most people expected Clinton to win Indiana by at least 4-5 points, maybe more (Survey USA?).  Something seems to have happened at the very end, and it appears Zogby caught it (for once). I just think his gas tax argument may have been part of it, but I have no hard data to suggest that.

    Parent
    Only the extit poll backs that up (none / 0) (#79)
    by Prabhata on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:09:02 AM EST
    according to CBS exit poll HRC won 60 percent of the white vote in IN.
    http://election.cbsnews.com/campaign2008/exitPoll.shtml?state=IN&race=P&jurisdiction=0&p arty=D

    Parent
    I don't know... (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by madamab on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:58:12 PM EST
    it seems that he kept his coalition and Clinton kept hers.

    I don't think anything was really changed here tonight.

    Parent

    MSNBC calls it for Hillary. (none / 0) (#92)
    by andreww on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:10:44 AM EST


    FOX finally called it for Hillary!!!!!!! (none / 0) (#97)
    by vicsan on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:11:53 AM EST
    WOOHOO! 51% Hillary 49% Obama. Sheesh...why were all the polls so far off this time?

    Relief! (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by facta non verba on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:13:38 AM EST
    Thank God!

    Parent
    DITTO that! (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by vicsan on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:15:54 AM EST
    I have such a stress headache from all this. I am so glad it's over. The Mayor of Gary almost sent me over the edge.

    Parent
    Jon Stewart should have fun (none / 0) (#150)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:21:00 AM EST
    with the duelling mayors and CNN's consternation.

    Parent
    Because AAs turned out more than expected (none / 0) (#197)
    by daryl herbert on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:33:34 AM EST
    Also, maybe Clinton did 1-2% weaker with white voters than expected.

    Obama was on a general rebound over the last few days.  It happens.

    Parent

    Wow... (none / 0) (#100)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:19 AM EST
    California does not allow mayors to mess with the election process,  I guess the old clean government reforms of the 20's never hit Indiana.  

    Her lead... (none / 0) (#103)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:28 AM EST
    back up to 22K with 99% counted.

    Union - Still no sign of land (none / 0) (#104)
    by Rhouse on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:33 AM EST
    or voters and it's 1:09 am et.  Were they all kidnaped by WKJM or is it something more sinister. like being ridden out of town on Unity Ponies?  

    Fox calls for Clinton! n/t (none / 0) (#107)
    by nycstray on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:13:01 AM EST


    SHE JUST WON!!!! (none / 0) (#108)
    by Chimster on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:13:05 AM EST
    Yessssss

    CNN (none / 0) (#110)
    by OldCoastie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:13:15 AM EST
    FINALLY projects Hillary as the winner...

    good grief!

    She wins IN, but all appointments cancelled (none / 0) (#111)
    by debrazza on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:13:30 AM EST
    Lets see what she does tomorrow.  Anyone donating?

    CNN calls it for HRC (none / 0) (#126)
    by Prabhata on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:15:54 AM EST


    Congrats to Clinton on winning IN (none / 0) (#146)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:19:40 AM EST
    by >20k votes. After tonight, it seems she will have made up ~4,300 votes from PA, IN, and NC combined.

    4,300 votes. Is that a mandate that Obama is damaged goods??

     

    Losing whites 3-2 is the damage dude (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:21:55 AM EST
    She lost blacks 9-1. (none / 0) (#187)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:30:11 AM EST
    His #s went up tonight, including with white women.

    With PA, NC, and IN, she picked up 4,000 votes and 4 delegates.

    That was with Wright, Ayers, his white weakness, her gas promise, bitterness, dignity, and everything else they could throw at Obama.

    With all that, and his #s still improved to the point that he almost did win IN, and he still blew her out in NC.

    You yourself had her winning IN by 8.

    Jeralyn
    was promoting the idea of a 'dead heat' in NC.

    Tonight was not good for Clinton, and it was a huge relief for Obama. If you have an ounce of intellectual honesty, you'll admit this fact:

    He won the night.

    Parent

    who is this "they" you are referring to? (5.00 / 0) (#193)
    by dws3665 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:32:38 AM EST
    Seriously. Wright, 'bittergate,' and Ayers, are self-inflicted wounds.

    Parent
    He won the night and lost the GE (5.00 / 0) (#195)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:33:07 AM EST
    Get very comfortable with that.

    Parent
    You all insisted he would lose the nomination (none / 0) (#215)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:41:04 AM EST
    so I'll hold off on inaugurating McCain.

    He beat the Clintons, the best politicians of the last 30 years; I think he can handle John "Four More Years" McCain.

    Parent

    please come back after the ge and let's (5.00 / 0) (#203)
    by hellothere on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:35:20 AM EST
    have a real sit down discussion about the campaigns. maybe there will be more humility then.

    Parent
    who are you? (5.00 / 1) (#221)
    by Salo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:43:18 AM EST
    Kick a man when he's down?

    What kind of emissary of Obama's unity are you?

    Parent

    May I respectfully suggest (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:22:02 AM EST
    Leave it alone for tonight.

    Parent
    If you can honestly say that had she won (none / 0) (#199)
    by halstoon on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:34:07 AM EST
    NC--or come within 20k votes--while blowing him out in IN that you would 'respectfully' not pile on Obama, then I will.

    I don't think you can.

    My guy won the night. I'm gonna gloat. To the winner goes the spoils.

    Parent

    Per CNN, Hillary Clinton won IN (none / 0) (#174)
    by oculus on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:25:36 AM EST
    with voters 65 and over.  

    Sounds like someone, (none / 0) (#179)
    by clio on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:26:42 AM EST
    and I'd think it might be someone from Chi prodded by the Obama campaign and Dem party leaders, got through to Gary's mayor that his shenanigans were not welcome and not necessary.

    Too obvious.  With this they can take Senator C down without a fraud so blatant that even Wolf is questioning the count.

    Why the Fixation with Fraud? (none / 0) (#180)
    by anesting on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:27:14 AM EST
    There was also a GOP primary in Indiana today, and the GOP party chair for Lake County backed the process and results in his county:

    "Lake County Republican Chairman John Curley stood by his Democratic counterpart Rudy Clay as the nation waited for vote totals from Lake County. "There's no hanky panky going on," Curley said after members of the national media wondered why Lake County's votes were taking so much longer to count than the rest of the state. "We have more than 11,000 absentee ballots, far more than we've ever had before," Curley said, insisting it simply takes time to get through that many tallies."

    (Reported in the Post-Tribune of NW Indiana)

    Perhaps rather than hurrying to make explicit or implicit allegations about fraud, everyone should pause to ask themselves what might be the best way to secure a Democratic win in November. That victory, we all know, is what matters going forward.

    You could be right, anesting, (none / 0) (#202)
    by clio on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:35:04 AM EST
    and I'd love to think so, but having lived in and around Chicago for years:

    Fraud is how elections in greater Chicago are done.  Been that way for decades.
    Heck, the precinct captains throw in a few extra votes even when it doesn't matter just to keep their hand in.

    Parent

    New Thread (none / 0) (#184)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:29:41 AM EST
    Was it the Mayor of Gary (none / 0) (#206)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:36:36 AM EST
    who said this weird thing recounted earlier tonight by a FOX 'analyst': seems said analyst asked the Mayor(?) a question about calling the race in IN and the guy replied: "Well, tell me how many votes you need".

    I'm pretty sure it was the Gary Mayor. The quote, itself, is accurate; it was a collective jaw-dropper here at casa mea, and the FOX guy clowned around about it for awhile.

    Anybody else hear it?


    Comments now closed (none / 0) (#220)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:42:57 AM EST
    please go to new thread.

    I like how everybody (none / 0) (#224)
    by onemanrules on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:44:47 AM EST
    claims that somehow McSame will somehow get the white working vote. Hillary was a very strong canidate with a strong base. Unless the blue collar workers (of which I am one) lose all brain cells and decide they like how the economy is going and how the war in Iraq is going they will vote strongly for Obama. McSame is identical to Bush on both these issues and these issues are most important to most blue collar whites. McSame will be nothing more than a sacrificial lamb come November. On a different note I can't help but to feel bad for HRC. For over a year she gave her heart and soul to her campaign, campaigning constantly and going all over the country with very little sleep. Makes me wonder why anybody would want to run for President.

    Why the funeral ? (none / 0) (#225)
    by gandy007 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:34:52 AM EST
    A month ago Obama was leading by more than 20 in NC and double digits in Indiana.

    The problem is with our own unrealistic expectations, aided and abetted by several severely flawed polls, even by the usual reliables.

    And she still got outspent 3-2 at least.

    I think it was a victory for Clinton, from the perspective of a valiant comeback.

    In NC, with its huge black population, the odds were always bad.

    I will be severely disappointed if Hillary does not go on to Ky and WV where she will seriously kick his butt! And she only need one cajon to do it, just to keep the playing field even.