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Late Late Night: Working Class Hero

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:40:04 PM EST
Tags: Hillary Clinton (all tags)
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The New York Times reports on Hillary Clinton's transformation into America's working class hero.

Here's Green Day:

As I wrote here the last time I picked this song for late night (with the John Lennon version), we've only got one working class hero in this race. [more...]

We've only got one working class hero in this race, and it's Hillary. 30 years ago, she could have been Tess (Melanie Griffith) in the movie Working Girl. You can speechify and borrow and take credit for work done by others, or you do what Hillary does, and learn every facet of the problem and have a hand in creating a proposal that results in a solution.She did it with Health care and with her Economic Stimulus Project. Now she's done it with a job plan.

She's a work horse, and she'll be a work horse for all of us if she gets the chance.

She often says she will get up every morning and go to work for us in the White House. I believe she will. And that she knows what she's doing. Let's hope the voters of Indiaana and North Carolina keep her in the race tomorrow.

< Krugman Says Obama Ad Misrepresents His Comments | Obama Can End The Race Today By Wins In IN and NC >

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    Late Late Night: Working Class Hero | 86 comments (86 topical)

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    One Obama strategy in Oregon (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by zyx on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:53:19 PM EST
    seems to be to make sure we get a big glossy mailer almost every day.  We got our ballots Friday or Saturday or thereabouts, and they are due in on the 20th.  If we get a mailer about how he's concerned with education on one day and the environment on the next day and so on, and each one has information on how to get our ballots mailed in on time or turned in to the proper drop-off points, then maybe we'll remember to vote for him, I guess.

    He had canvassers drop by over the weekend, too, in my neighborhood.  They are a busy bunch of folks.

    How many glossy mailers. . . (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:20:49 AM EST
    about concern for the environment?

    [ Parent ]
    Oversaturation (none / 0) (#76)
    by stefystef on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:52:26 AM EST
    Do you think Obama suffers from oversaturation.
    The states where he went to town and blanketed voters with billions of ads and flyers, he lost.

    Sometimes, too much of something is not good.

    [ Parent ]

    Why can't the media understand? (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by OrangeFur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:11:09 AM EST
    You don't have to be struggling to understand how to help those who are.

    I don't care if a candidate has more money than Bill Gates. They can still be a working class hero if they have the right mindset and the right policies. Sheesh.

    Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:22:17 AM EST
    the media seems so out of touch itself, it doesn't understand the difference between having money and having an elitist attitude. Can someone please buy the MSM a dictionary?

    [ Parent ]
    They don't understand the principle (none / 0) (#21)
    by felizarte on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:28:39 AM EST
    of trying to save a drowning person; that the one attempting to save should at least know how to swim, is strong, and knows exactly the technique for dealing with the situation.

    [ Parent ]
    FDR and ER. The Great Depression (none / 0) (#29)
    by Cream City on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:44:15 AM EST
    and their New Deal, despite both being from the family of a former president and the elite of the elite.  ER is Hillary Clinton's hero, of course.  'Nuff said.

    [ Parent ]
    Early in the campaign (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by felizarte on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:24:33 AM EST
    When the candidates just announced their candidacies, I thought that Edwards would be battling it out with Hillary and Obama, being the freshest face might prove to be strong too.  But talking to a friend, after some discussions on their relative merits. Edwards I think was hurt by the $400 haircut which unermined his populist message. Although his universal healthcare proposal was as good as Hillary's, for some reason he did not get the traction in the polls that he deserved.

    I concluded at that time that Hillary will probably win the nomination through sheer intellect and hardwork.  I thought even at that time, that she will probably work more hours at campaigning than any of the guys.  I wasn't wrong.  I thought that Obama was less experienced compared to Hillary and I was always suspicious of candidates who rail against Washington D.C. who, without exception, come to the realization that in the end, a leader can only work within the structure that has been built for so many years--with congress, the various segments of society with competing interests. I've seen the difficulty of Carter, then Reagan totally abandoned "the people" and acceded to the pressures of vested interests, like banks, insurance, companies, the industrial military complex that was a problem since Eisenhower's administration.

    I am convinced that Hillary knows where all those unseen power cables are hidden ready to rear their heads when their interests are at risked.  She is smart enough to weave through all of them for the good of the country.  I have that much faith in her intellect and executive and negotiating skills.  I pray she will be the next president.'

    Thank you TalkLeft for providing this site where posters can still be civil and have not lost their good natures and perspective.

    Late Late Night (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:58:36 AM EST
    This worker bee is going to sign off now from TL.  Everyone get some rest because we are going to need it because we will be up late tomorrow night celebrating victory for Senator Clinton.

    BTW, the wandering cat showed up.  He voted for Clinton.  A total sweep. 100% HRC all animals/precints and one tired pet owner reporting.

    Going to sleep now.  Sending nothing but good energy to Hillary, Jeralyn and BTD.

    VIVA HILLARY!  ADELANTE!!

    The Clintons don't have any old family money (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:09:59 AM EST
    they came from working class roots. Bill was poor as a child, not dirt poor, but lower middle class for sure. The money they have they EARNED themselves with the books they wrote that people wanted to buy and read and through Bill's speeches which command a hefty fee. People pay it because they want to hear what he has to say. So if the Clintons are rich, it's because the people think enough of them to pay for their books and to hear Bill speak. When they left the White House they were millions in debt from the legal fees from fighting off the Republican Congress' investigations and the impeachment. Oh, by the way, he wasn't convicted, in case you missed that part. They have earned every penny they have. So can the "old family money" crap, because that's all it is, crap.

    I want a constitutional hero, (none / 0) (#1)
    by andreww on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:47:43 PM EST
    an energy independence hero, and a foreign policy hero.  It's not entirely clear to me why the people who were fooled into voting for Bush again in 2004 are more important than those who weren't.

    Are you suggesting they're less important? (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Marco21 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:59:32 PM EST
    They're still fellow Americans, even if they vote against their own interests. I thought progressives were to shine a light on that type of gap in logic and bring people around to doing what's best for them and what's best for us all.

    [ Parent ]
    That's the Unity spirit! (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:01:44 AM EST
    shamefully, this isn't the first time I've had to respond to a post with this subject line.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by Steve M on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:37:25 AM EST
    Should I assume you make a face every time Obama talks about expanding the party, or reaching out to Republicans?

    [ Parent ]
    For me? YES! I grimace (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by felizarte on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:52:56 AM EST
    because he does it at the expense of Clinton administration that did so much for the country; only praises for Reagan without pointing out some of the tragic economic policies under him such as the Chrysler bail out and bail out of the S&L's that the taxpayers are still paying for. Because he conveys no sense of urgency with the housing crisis--foreclosures and bankruptcies; outsourcing of jobs, etc.  The thought of him becoming president, with such limited experience to make things work, just absolutely terrifies me for this country.  

    The irony of it all is, it is not so much the older generation who will be affected by his mistakes due to inexperience; it will be the very same young people who are attracted to him whose futures are going to be disadvantaged.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't grimace (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:06:16 AM EST
    but I tend to roll my eyes a lot --however, I'm part of the Gen-Xers, like Chelsea, so I'm sarcastic and whatnot.

    [ Parent ]
    Agree, agree... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by oldpro on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:35:40 AM EST
    And acknowledging to myself that my (older) generation will not have to pay the biggest price if Obama's idolators somehow manage to elect him...they will reap what they sow for many years...perhaps for the rest of their lives...

    Remembering that is the only thing that keeps me sane enough - calm enough - to accept all that may be to come.  Sometimes you simply cannot save people from themselves.

    [ Parent ]

    Then do what everyone else (none / 0) (#60)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:19:58 AM EST
    does, and make one up.

    I remember from the Dean campaign (I was a Deanie) the amazing ability people had to project onto him their own personal political philosophies.

    Obama, considerably more of a blank slate than Clinton, has the same characteristic.  People seem to see what they want to see, and once they've seduced themselves into believing they've seen the savior they have an amazing ability to give up their original beliefs to follow whatever their candidate is doing today.

    In fact, there's no more than a hair's breadth difference between Obama and Clinton on constitutional, energy, or foreign policy issues.  This is clearly demonstrated by their policy statements and the fact that whenever Obama attempts to distinguish himself from Clinton's policies he eventually has to state he agrees with the policy itself, just not the particular expression of it.

    [ Parent ]

    LarryinNY (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by feet on earth on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:46:58 AM EST
    Did you consider to post this as the definition of political colt on Wikipedia? Fits like a glove.

    Political Colt:

    People seem to see what they want to see, and once they've seduced themselves into believing they've seen the savior they have an amazing ability to give up their original beliefs to follow whatever their candidate is doing today.

    [ Parent ]

    You mean "cult" not "colt" ? (none / 0) (#69)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:14:37 AM EST
    A cult is a group of deluded people. A colt is a young male horse.

    [ Parent ]
    Mispelling intended ;^) (none / 0) (#88)
    by feet on earth on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:15:14 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Uh (none / 0) (#77)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:59:33 AM EST
    Actually, Obama himself said he was a "blank screen."

    From The Audacity of Hope

    "I serve as a blank screen," Obama writes, "on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views." He notifies readers that "my treatment of the issues is often partial and incomplete."

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (none / 0) (#81)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:47:39 AM EST
    In other words "Hi. I'm a sociopath who will do anything necessary to pander to voters. I actually have no substance at all."

    Sadly, that's what many of us (but not enough) have picked up already.

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (none / 0) (#84)
    by jondee on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:56:44 AM EST
    Sociopath. Just a tad strong, dontcha think?

    A sociopath; kinda like someone who enables a war in which hundreds of thousands are victimized and gives her stamp of approval for the possibility of another -- if it all'll play with the center right, who you're attmpting to suck up to.

    But, sometimes it takes an obliterated village.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes! "Come the new Jerusalem" (none / 0) (#2)
    by Cream City on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:51:38 PM EST
    my favorite line from one of my favorite Carly Simon songs, from the great flick Working Girl.  Have a YouTube link for all the great ones you've given us, Jeralyn:  Let the River Run.  "It's asking for the taking . . . We're coming to the end, your sons and daughters!"

    And yet I forgot the fave line: (none / 0) (#5)
    by Cream City on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:55:51 PM EST
    "Let all the dreamers take the nation."  

    Yeah. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    love (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by proudliberaldem on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:58:35 PM EST
    the movie, love the song, love hillary.

    let the river run . . .

    [ Parent ]

    If she wins tomorrow (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:03:51 AM EST
    maybe I'll make it for late night. Just watched the you tube link you posted, what a great video. And yes, I love that movie.

    [ Parent ]
    I really thought that was a great NYT article! n/t (none / 0) (#4)
    by zyx on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:54:31 PM EST


    did you really? (none / 0) (#12)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:05:56 AM EST
    I thought it came off as kind of snide. I know I should be grateful that this is a semi-fair article, but it not only reads to me as a slap at Hillary between the lines: "My God -- she actually went to podunk, I mean, Cary, NC and pretended to care about the hillbillies more than herself! How desperate can she get!"
    Lord knows, though, I may just be getting paranoid, seeing CDS where there isn't any.

    [ Parent ]
    it tried to be snide (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:16:54 AM EST
    but the reality comes through whether the reporter intended it or not, that people really do see her that way. It's not so much they think her life is like their life, it's that she gets their life and focuses on their life instead of her's. And instead of talking about hope and change, she talks about jobs, jobs jobs.

    No one expects that the President of the United States is going to go home and do their own laundry. Or pump her own gas. Or buy her own groceries. But she's focused on them having to do those things (maybe not the laundry) and she backs her rhetoric up with concrete plans expressed in terms they can understand. When she says she's going to roll up her sleeves, that's genuine and that's good enough.

    The public has known her since 1992.  She's familiar. In some cases, they've grown up with her. At the opposite end, people in nursing homes can see her on tv and have a sense of familiarity. Who knows Obama?

    One more time, since it's so close to the wire: the devil you know is better than the devil you don't and why buy a pig in a poke?

    [ Parent ]

    HRC (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:32:35 AM EST
    is a great politician because she is chameleon-like with a real sense of empathy.  She has gone from Scranton girl to small town Hoosier.

    I believe that is the mark of a good politician.  I know that there is a dog and pony show, showboating...whatever someone wants to call it.  But the Clintons, I feel, really do care about the people of America.

    I TOTALLY remember this man here in E Tx who's wife died and he became a speaker on behalf of affordable healthcare.  I saw this poor man break down in Bill Clinton's arms and they both wept together at the loss of his wife.

    Everytime I think about that it makes me tear up (like right now).  When Bill Clinton came to Fort Worth someone in the crowd yelled to him, "we miss you Mister President!"

    I stood back and I got choked up.  Our country is starving for competence and leadership.  I really do feel that Hillary (and Bill) can restore what is deftly wrong with our country and her citizens.

    Maybe I am being too idealistic but I remember the 90s so well.  I believe that the Clintons are working class heroes because they may not be the "every day man or woman" but they know and sense their pain.  And they wanna help.

    [ Parent ]

    thank you (none / 0) (#17)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:24:06 AM EST
    for reassuring me that I'm not over the edge -- yet. ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    There is a very nice letter to the editor (none / 0) (#30)
    by zyx on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:45:41 AM EST
    at the WaPo, and they don't do a lot of letters.

    It's here, last of the bunch...

    link

    [ Parent ]

    Really nice letters! (none / 0) (#38)
    by felizarte on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:59:03 AM EST
    thanks for the link.

    [ Parent ]
    ??? Meaning? (none / 0) (#53)
    by oldpro on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:49:15 AM EST
    "Maybe not the laundry?"

    [ Parent ]
    Cary is Podunk? (none / 0) (#27)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:39:35 AM EST
    I thought it was developing fast.

    If Hillary gets into the Whitehouse, does Bill have to stop his speeches for money? If so, they are making some great personal sacrifices. Not that being judged, trashed and attacked daily isn't a great personal sacrifice, of course.


    [ Parent ]

    Podunk compared to NYC (none / 0) (#28)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:41:28 AM EST
    but of course, so is the rest of the USA.

    [ Parent ]
    But keep in mind . . . (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by nycstray on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:46:32 AM EST
    she's a NY Senator, not a NYC Senator  ;) There's def a difference!

    [ Parent ]
    What's particularly funny is (none / 0) (#74)
    by Nadai on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:28:55 AM EST
    Cary is the most latte suburb of Raleigh there is.  That's where a bunch of the tech/science workers of RTP live - good schools, McMansions, Whole Foods.  Cary is Obamaland.  But I guess all us southerners are hicks and we all look alike to the important people.

    [ Parent ]
    Billy Joe Armstrong (none / 0) (#6)
    by magster on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:57:01 PM EST
    likes Obama and Bill Clinton (at least as of 11/07).

    And, did you know, a teenager who bought American Idiot when it was released is now voting age?

    Yikes. (none / 0) (#9)
    by Marco21 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:00:52 AM EST
    I feel ancient now. Thanks an f-ing lot. :)

    [ Parent ]
    Cr@p (none / 0) (#15)
    by mulletov cocktails on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:17:49 AM EST
    Does anyone else remember listening to Dookie on casette until it popped?

    [ Parent ]
    No, but I had John Mellencamp, (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:19:20 AM EST
    or John Cougar Mellencamp as he was known then, on 8-track. Wore it out. Heh. Of course, someone who thinks cassettes are old-fashioned probably wasn't around for 8-tracks.

    [ Parent ]
    I was 12 when it came out... (none / 0) (#20)
    by reynwrap582 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:28:23 AM EST
    My sister bought it.  I didn't so much like the music, but I absolutely loved the cover art.

    [ Parent ]
    For some reason (none / 0) (#19)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:26:01 AM EST
    the line "You think you're so clever and classless and free" seems to apply to the Creative Class, now doesn't it?

    I'd like to think John "I'm a Feminist" Lennon would've been for Hillary. I'm hoping Yoko Ono is. There are a bunch of her songs from the 70s (notably "Woman Power" and "Men Men Men" which would apply to this campaign in a positive way).

    I hope Yoko is too (none / 0) (#22)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:29:07 AM EST
    but don't let my mom know I said that -- she still hasn't forgiven Yoko "for breaking up the Beatles." lol.

    [ Parent ]
    I won't tell your mom (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:54:30 AM EST
    I'll also spare you the rant on why she did not even remotely break up the Beatles, nor did Linda McCartney, but it's always easier to blame the evil calculating women then make the men responsible for their own stupid behaviour!

    [ Parent ]
    Wow (none / 0) (#40)
    by phat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:04:58 AM EST
    I'll bet we share the same ran

    [ Parent ]
    Indeed. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:10:16 AM EST
    I'm actually a Yoko Ono fan above and beyond the Beatles fan thing. The misinformation about her out there is really heartbreaking.

    [ Parent ]
    Um (none / 0) (#43)
    by phat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:08:51 AM EST
    Rant

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks, please spare me (none / 0) (#45)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:13:13 AM EST
    If you want to rant, rant at my mom -- as I explained below, I know she didn't "break up" the Beatles, that is what the "lol" in my post was meant to convey.

    Also, please don't take what I said here as permission to rant at my mom, 'cause if you did, I'll have to open a can of whupass on you. ;-) (that's also supposed to be humorous -- but, you know, you still can't rant at my mom).

    [ Parent ]

    Yoko did NOT break up the. . . (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:23:37 AM EST
    Beatles.  That was Hillary.  I read it on Kos.

    [ Parent ]
    Poor Yoko (none / 0) (#24)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:34:12 AM EST
    she will never live that down

    [ Parent ]
    Did you know (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:39:30 AM EST
    yoko is 75 years old now? Wow.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep (none / 0) (#33)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:53:11 AM EST
    She's a year and a half older than my mother, and still doing amazing things. I've got her (Yoko, not my mom) friended on Facebook. She has always been incredible. And, like HRC, much maligned and hated for things she never actually did.

    [ Parent ]
    if you've never read (none / 0) (#46)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:13:24 AM EST
    the story about how the TL kid was born (my water broke and I went into labor when Howard Cossell announced Lennon had been shot) and how we've regarded Lennon as a kindred spirit ever since, it's here.

    [ Parent ]
    Amazing (none / 0) (#50)
    by phat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:26:32 AM EST
    I went to bed early that night. I usually watched football on Mondays but I was really tired for some reason.

    My mom woke me up with the news the next morning.

    I was devastated.

    [ Parent ]

    that is a really poignant story (none / 0) (#51)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:30:08 AM EST
    thanks for pointing it out.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh! (none / 0) (#55)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:36:37 AM EST
    I hadn't seen that before. I'll go read it now.

    I have a bittersweet memory of that night -- I was just starting finals for my first semester of my freshman year of college. I was up studying, not watching tv. I'd just spoken to my parents in NY who had heard the news and didn't tell me (knowing I was such a crazy foaming at the mouth Beatles fan at the time -- Lennon and Harrison were my gods at the time!). Got off the phone with them and my best friend called me to tell me. I thought she was making some sort of sick joke until I turned on the tv and heard what was going on. It was a very bad finals week.

    Luckily I got back to New York in time for the memorial service at the bandshell in Central Park. sigh

    [ Parent ]

    I was working at a horse farm (none / 0) (#75)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:37:36 AM EST
    and staying with some friends while looking for an apartment. I was listening to the radio on earphones, the rest of them were studying. I heard the news and my face just went pale and blank. I took the earphone jack out of the stereo and let them hear it. We sat all night and listened to the radio. The next day at work even the horses were quiet. None of the usual whinnies and nickers. Just silence and the radio playing Beatles songs. No one said a word all day long, we just did our work in silence. I have never had another experience like that, it was a real tribute to the man and his music.

    [ Parent ]
    Interesting read -- as I was pregnant (none / 0) (#80)
    by Cream City on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:32:33 AM EST
    at the time with my youngest, so a bit younger than your Nic.  I was up with the bad back and restlessness that comes from carrying around all that extra weight when I tuned in to the news and heard it when you did.  And I thought, how sad that my child will not know a world with Lennon in it.

    Btw, she became on her own the biggest of Lennon fans, his songs are her favorites -- and she and I prize (in part because of her deaf step-brother) a beautiful artwork I found at an art fair, a print of hands spelling out in sign language the word "Imagine."

    Oh, and I was pregnant with my oldest when Elvis died.  It seems that I mark the end of eras for our generation with my own new beginnings. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Yoko Ono (none / 0) (#34)
    by phat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:53:55 AM EST
    Yoko Ono did not break up the Beatles. She saved John Lennon's life, more than once. And this isn't in that "he just needs to find a good woman to settle him down" garbage.

    The Beatles ended, as most bands do. It's that simple.

    He learned more from her than any other person he ever knew. And he appreciated that very, very much. To be honest, I don't know what she learned from him. That's a question I've never asked, oddly enough. I'd like to ask her that.

    I'd bet my 1972 Fender Precision Bass (stock fretless) that Yoko supports Hillary.

    [ Parent ]

    I know that (none / 0) (#39)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:03:25 AM EST
    hence the lol at the end of my post.  However, try explaining that to my mom! Heck, the Beatles breaking up was one of the most devastating events of her young life. Nope, to my mom, Yoko will always be the woman who broke up "her" Fab 4 and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway her on that point.

    [ Parent ]
    That's one of those (none / 0) (#42)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:08:15 AM EST
    sexist things I never actually understood. I was only 7 when they broke up so the reasons for it didnt come clear until I was about 12 and got obsessed with the Fabs. But considering Linda pretty much did/said the same things in Paul's life that Yoko did in John's, it always rankled me that Yoko got all the blame. Mostly because she was outspoken and older and Japanese, vs. pretending to be the good little wife to the Mighty Paul. Alastair Taylor (RIP) who worked for them from 1962 onward had some choice things to say about Linda, none of them nice.

    Personally, it was just that four friends grew up and grew away from one another and if it hadnt been THOSE relationships, it would've been others at some point. Ringo and George both quit the band more than once and their wives at the time weren't even involved in the mess...

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by phat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:23:13 AM EST
    In most situations where somebody is looking for someone to blame, women are usually the first ones picked. An Asian woman in America and England is, of course, the best choice if there are 2 women to blame.

    If a band breaks up, there really should be no one to blame. What's the point?

    It's a band. They start and they stop. Sometimes that start again. Blame drugs and the "industry" before any person. And don't forget that sometimes people don't want to keep doing something over and over again. Maybe they just didn't want to keep playing "Can't Buy Me Love". Granted, they hadn't played that song for a long time anyway, but that's just a simple example.

    If we're lucky, the members of the band continue to do great things, all four of the Beatles did, which is unusual.


    [ Parent ]

    Actually (none / 0) (#57)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:42:45 AM EST
    Maybe they just didn't want to keep playing "Can't Buy Me Love". Granted, they hadn't played that song for a long time anyway, but that's just a simple example.

    See, this is one of my many objections to the deification of Paul McCartney -- he actually loves to do stuff like that even now, 40 yrs later. He is perfectly content to rest on his laurels, unlike some of the others.

    [ Parent ]

    maybe you had to be there (none / 0) (#48)
    by angie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:22:19 AM EST
    my mom was -- and in London at the time no less, where the press was really vicious toward Yoko. I've told her that she's bought into the media narrative, but she believes what she read at the time. It actually isn't something we've spent a lot of time debating -- I was only 1 myself when they broke up, and I've always been more of an Elvis girl myself.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh definitely (none / 0) (#56)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:40:49 AM EST
    I used to be a Beatles fanatic. I must have about 200 books on the subject and do remember a lot of the vitriol in the 70s when I was growing up. I remember reading a great article/interview with Yoko in my mom's MS magazine around 1973-74 and just being fascinated by her. It hasn't changed much in 35 years.

    It's so sad to see that same kind of hatred being spewed at Hillary for the same reasons. Being a strong, competent b*llsy woman is somehow anathema. It sucks.

    [ Parent ]

    What bothered me about Yoko was (none / 0) (#73)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:28:43 AM EST
    how she just plopped herself into John's life, without a thought for his wife, Cynthia. Cynthia came home from a trip and found Yoko's clothes in her closet and Yoko's shoes by her bed, and Yoko in her bed with her husband. Not literally finding them in bed, mind you, but pretty close. I thought that was a very tacky episode. It really did a lot of damage to John's relationship with his son, Julian, too. The Beatles were on the way to breaking up way before Yoko showed up, but her timing sucked which is why she got pilloried. I thought she deserved it, not for breaking up the band, but for being so crude in the way she treated his wife. And yes, he was married at the time. Not something Yoko seemed to mind, or care about. That didn't sit well with me. If you are going to take a married man away from his wife, never mind what state the marriage is in, you don't just move in and let her find you when she gets back from a trip. That is just about as low as you can get, in my opinion. And Yoko has a voice like a rusty saw. Ick.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (none / 0) (#82)
    by janarchy on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:53:13 AM EST
    Yoko was married too. And John didn't have any problem with that.

    I don't think poor Cyn was treated very fairly by either of them - I just get really tired of people blaming Yoko and Yoko only for the bad behviour when John was completely complict in what was going on. On top of that, he and Cyn hardly had an idyllic marriage -- they only got married because she was pregnant, and John was unhappy. He'd had countless affairs with women prior to that, including a few mistresses, that Cyn was unaware of. As he said later, Yoko was the first and only one he wanted to do anything about. If it hadn't been Yoko, it would have been someone else eventually.

    John's relationship with Julian was also not very good. He wasn't around much, seemed to resent his existence and generally didn't relate to him. Which is very sad. But considering John's relationship with his own father, it's not surprising that he wasn't a very good father the first time around either. (Not an excuse - just very tragic)

    [ Parent ]

    She can't catch him? (none / 0) (#31)
    by nellre on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:47:44 AM EST
    But he can't beat her.

    I call it neck in neck. Any and all who want to call this race now are cowards.

    Dean... you listening?

    With two tin ears... (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Marco21 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:55:33 AM EST
    how can he?

    [ Parent ]
    What did my lying eyes say? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Trickster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:19:20 AM EST
    Did the Times really just run a puff piece on Hillary?

    ???

    How the HELL did that happen?  I'll bet there's a Glenn Close-like person lying in a pool of blood next to the press switch.

    Perhaps they realized the need (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by felizarte on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:31:38 AM EST
    to be serious about U.S. leadership.  This week's issue of NEWSWEEK is sure to disturb many people, especially the article on the rise of China and Russia, and the question, "Where does this leave the U.S.?" And the sescond is about Oprah Winfrey and why she left Rev. Wright's Church.  There are many more articles focusing on the global economic, political and security concerns for the U.S.

    Such a world in great peril and the stature of the U.S. at risk.  Does any thinking person really want someone as inexperienced as Barack Obama to deal with those on Day One?  The presidency requires requires a mind like a steel trap, poise under pressure, ability to think on one's feet, thoughtful, deliberate, calm, imaginative, and someone who has learned by being in the front row seat.  Of the three now running, there is only Hillary that people can have confidence in.  

    [ Parent ]

    exactly (none / 0) (#72)
    by karen for Clinton on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:20:42 AM EST
    The situation of the world is and has been pretty darn scary.  Things have changed since the last dem, ahem, was in office and certainly not for the better.  That the world is falling apart at the seams, as the deluge of information about global situations tell us daily for a very long time, is apparent.

    Andy Rooney asked many months ago on 60 Minutes something like "Who would WANT to be president?"

    She does, and she fully understands the needs we face that are astronomically against us.

    Turning the tide is an awesome responsibility and an unspeakable... impossible perhaps challenge.

    There's one person for that job and like it or not it is undoubtably her.

    [ Parent ]

    I have a preference (none / 0) (#59)
    by Rainsong on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:17:32 AM EST
    for Marianne Faithfull's version, to me it has more 'atmosphere':)
    Working class hero - Marianne

    but then when I found that, I also found a YouTube of an original 1965 appearance with her first hit single 'As Tears Go By' - wow, nostalgia,

    As Tears Go By

    You don't get? Seems you are getting it wrong (none / 0) (#65)
    by feet on earth on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:49:27 AM EST


    Perhaps "Hero OF the Working Class"? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Fabian on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:52:50 AM EST
    Sometimes I just prefer the language of math - much more precise - no context, subtext, implications of imprecations.

    Old family money?? (none / 0) (#68)
    by Nadai on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:14:32 AM EST
    Neither of the Clintons come from money, Bill's family especially.  And the only reason they're rich now is because they're popular enough that their books sell and people want to hear them speak.  If Obama somehow managed to win the Presidency and somehow managed not to screw it up in office, he'd be as rich, if not richer, once he was out.

    As filthy rich as the Cintons are.... (none / 0) (#78)
    by kdog on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:31:42 AM EST
    it's pretty shameful for Bill to milk the government for his presidential retirement package.  From TMQ...

    Clinton, whose recently released tax forms show he has made more than $10 million per year since leaving office, nevertheless has already claimed $8 million in retirement benefits (and he's not retired), plus $3.2 million for office overhead, plus $420,000 for his phone bill. The later figure is difficult to take seriously; even if you yakked 24/7 on a satellite line to Tajikistan, it's hard to believe you could ring up $420,000 in telephone charges. Is some of this money really going to staffers for Clinton's speechmaking business? In public the very wealthy Clinton wags his finger about how the rich are shafting the average guy. He himself is shafting the average guy by claiming lavish tax subsidies.

    If Hillary was a working class hero should would urge her husband to forego his pension for the good of working class taxpayers...but I won't hold my breath.

    You're sure a low-information voter (none / 0) (#79)
    by Cream City on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:25:06 AM EST
    so it's understandable that you're here.

    But even low-information voters don't need to lie.

    Leftwing (none / 0) (#83)
    by felizarte on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:43:24 AM EST
    What else do you have little knowledge of, especially in politics? Obama had a more privileged upbringing than Hillary or Bill Clinton. Just read Obama's books and those of Hillary and Bill Clinton also.

    Working Class Hero? (none / 0) (#85)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:24:27 PM EST
    Yes, she is accomplished, and yes is probably also a workaholic, as are many if not most of the wealthy elite of our country, but "working class?" Hardly.

    Hillary's grandad was a child immigrant from Wales who worked in a fabric factory.

    Hillary's dad went to Penn State on a football scholarship.

    After graduating he was a traveling salesman for a textile company, served stateside during WW2, and then ultimately owned a very successful fabric business in Chicago and was wealthy enough to put his daughter through Wellesley (~$32k/year these days) and Yale Law School(~$35k/year).

    We all know what the Clinton household earns these days.

    All three worked hard, and all three have my utmost respect in that regard, but defining as Hillary "working class?" I don't think so.

    Now, she may well be a "hero" to some/many of the "working class," no argument there.

    Raid at office of Special Council (none / 0) (#86)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:52:42 PM EST
    I didn't catch what was going on... Fox interrupted their coverage to announce their is currently a raid going on at the office of Special Council.  The name Scott Block was brought up and the DOJ.

    Do any of the lawyers here know what is going on?

    Raid at the office of Scott Bloch (none / 0) (#87)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:56:58 PM EST
    Scott J. Bloch for the position of Special Counsel at the U.S. Office of Special Counsel. The U.S. Senate unanimously confirmed Mr. Bloch on December 9, 2003. On January 5, 2004, he was sworn in to serve a five-year term.

    Tried that again as I mangled the spelling and didn't know exactly who he is.

    Mr. Bloch has focused the agency on stepping up enforcement, doubling numbers of positive whistleblower disclosures that have brought greater integrity and efficiency to agencies in the executive branch, and going after wrongdoers in all areas of civil rights, illegal political activity and coercion of political activity in the federal workplace.  He has increased enforcement of service member employment and reemployment rights during an historic mobilization of America's volunteer armed forces, and has resolved backlogs in all areas of enforcement at the Office of Special Counsel, so that for the last three years, there are no backlogs.  He has emphasized greater outreach nationally and has appeared in the national media often to emphasize the work of the office and the great heroes, ordinary heroes who have the courage to blow the whistle, who are helping to bring our government to greater accountability.

    Late Late Night: Working Class Hero | 86 comments (86 topical)

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