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On Electability and How the Presidential Race Has Changed

From Only in America, Newsweek's cover story today (page 4):

Eyeing those Reagan Democrats, the McCain camp believes that if Obama wins the nomination, the Republicans might have a shot at some states considered to be safe Clinton territory, like New York and New Jersey. Those big former industrial states—Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan—could all go Republican if the Democrats pick Obama. On the other hand, the Obama advisers argue that by appealing to independents and registering new young voters, Obama could take states in the West like Colorado and Nevada that seem unreachable to Clinton. By energizing his black base, Obama could even take away two or three Southern states—Virginia and the Carolinas, perhaps—from the GOP. The Obama-ites also predict that once the hard fighting of the primaries finally ends, the Democratic Party will come together, and Democrats alienated by all the feuding will come home.

More...

Obama's promise of success depends on more than soothing the Democratic base, however. He will not be able to re-create the magic of those huge, idolatrous rallies in January and February by drinking beer chasers and eating more waffles. What he had—and what he has lost, at least for the time being—is something more ineffable, a hope of changing politics as commonly understood, and disdained, by voters of all classes and races.

The article concludes:

To get the Democratic nomination, and to win the presidency, Obama has to show that he is not just a rock-star speechifier—or a worn-down pol trying to limp over the goal line without saying something that could possibly be used against him. He has to show voters who he really is. Most of them still don't know.

My thought on the electability part: No matter how many new and black voters Obama brings to the polls, there are only so many electoral votes in the southern and western states conceivably at play: Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada, Virginia, the Carolinas.

The votes in those states don't compare to Ohio, PA, Florida and Michigan. And if Obama might also put New York and New Jersey at risk, how can superdelegates possibly view him as the better candidate? He seems to me to be the riskier candidate in November by miles.

[Comments now closed.]

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  • Display: Sort:
    His Electability (5.00 / 8) (#1)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:00:21 PM EST
    argument in Nevada and NM make absolutely no sense to me.  She won.  She won through the Latino vote, which is the "swing vote" portion in those states.

    So I'm not following his campaign's thinking.  He did win Colorado.

    But he performed very poorly in the Latino community.  Is he assuming he'd win those votes?

    I'm not so sure that's true.  That voter group is very socially conservative in many ways.  Good strong Catholic families there.

    He doesn't do well with that group.

    From everything I've seen (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by nycstray on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:06:18 PM EST
    the Latino vote will swing more towards McCain. I don't understand the Obama Camps analysis on some of these states looking at the states that have already voted. I'm beginning to think it's another "If we say it enough . . . "

    Looking at the demographics of who's voting for who, I see more of Hillary's going McCain than his. But what do I know?

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:15:45 PM EST
    My problem with Obama isn't any of the controversial stuff.

    It's my pocketbook.

    He's talked about privatization of SS.  Well, as I explained to my Gen-Xer today, that hits me hard.  I'm not old enough to be grandfathered, but just at the age that I could be truly harmed in retirement with that plan.  I'm a bit sick of that trend, btw.

    Then, there's his tax plan.  Hits me a lot more directly than Hillary's does.  I'm not in a dual-income high income bracket that her plans hit.  I'm right in his bulls-eye group.  And I'm sorry, his waffling on the last debate sure didn't reassure me.  He's deadly on capital gains.  And don't try to tell me, small fish in that big pond, that it's good to sacrifice so the fat cats don't get fatter.  They will get fatter anyway.  Me?  I'll get killed.

    Then there's his health care plan, which will do NOTHING for CA but make our problem worse.  Phooey on that one.  CA voters are idiots if they go for that.  We'll have the worst of both worlds.  More uninsured killing off more of our health emergency rooms and hospitals from the group he isn't going to "mandate."  They are our problem now.  We've watch 11 medical centers close due to this problem.  It's a make-or-break deal for our state.  

    Then, there's his energy votes/plans, which I think hurt the entire country and the world.  Not good.

    So for a lot of practical reasons, I'm having a hard time thinking about voting for him.

    But frankly, it's mostly due to my pocketbook.

    Parent

    His nuclear power positions are what frightens me! (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by hairspray on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:55:19 PM EST
    Mine is just what the article said (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:24:52 PM EST
    he refuses to tell us who he is. He wants us to read his books to find out, despite how many disputes over the truthfulness of those books appear in all forms of media.  

    To be so secretive that he creates a childhood image of himself that makes it impossible to relate to him, says he's either hiding something really big, or his entire identity is wrapped in confusion.

    He wants the keys to the Whitehouse. He wants use of Air Force One to go talk to our allies and enemies. He wants control over our military. He wants to select Supreme Court Judges. He wants a major say in our economy.  I, and I think I'm justified here, want to know who he is.

    Right now I don't like what I see.


    Parent

    McCain would win the Latino vote outright (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Salo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:24:39 PM EST
    He would only need as good a showing as Bush in 2000.

    McCain only has to steal a sliver of the vote here and there and he wins.

    He's also likely to completely win any polling on Patriotism. Something the party had worked on doubly hard to at least neutralize as a factor... Wright brought all that rushing back.

    Parent

    woundn't win it outright. (Correction) (none / 0) (#37)
    by Salo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:25:38 PM EST
    ...

    Parent
    Wasn't Nevada (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:35:11 PM EST
    one of the first states where Bill Clinton pointed out there was some caucus bullying going on that was threatening the integrity of the primary?  She "won" Nevada, but Obama got 1 more delegate than she did there, which is how he sells his "I won Nevada" claim.

    Parent
    Yes it is (none / 0) (#124)
    by delandjim on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:58:01 PM EST
    In fact Pres. Clinton was right there at the time.

    Parent
    Ann...I don't understand that either...latinos (none / 0) (#92)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:19:53 PM EST
    have NOT been big supporters of obama and Clinton did win NV...I think this is just a wrong call.

    Parent
    Signaling (none / 0) (#102)
    by hlr on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:35:08 PM EST
    Richardson for VP.

     

    Parent

    Richardson would be (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:12:02 PM EST
    a hideous choice.  When I look at Richardson, I don't see strength.  He would need someone more hawkish to offset his dove-like demeanor and policies.  I would expect someone more along the lines of Jim Webb.

    Parent
    VP short list (none / 0) (#148)
    by hlr on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:42:00 PM EST
    What I've seen cited in the media most often for Obama is Richardson, Casey, Bloomberg.

    Richardson -- indicates a West/Hispanic strategy.

    Casey -- shore up Penn, perhaps OH. I think the Dems would be playing w/ fire. Let's not forget all the assurances that Casey wouldn't get anywhere near Judiciary Comm, but now a pro-lifer on the Dem ticket?

    Bloomberg -- shore up moderate Repubs, perhaps Jewish voters.

    I think they're all horrid choices. The real problem is that there's no 'one size fits all' VP to shore up all the areas in which Obama is bleeding.

    Webb only barely won his race and doesn't like to campaign.

    Parent

    Richardson (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:50:42 PM EST
    absolutely has no shot at the VP spot.  He's a joke, particularly after his hideous endorsement.

    Obama hasn't touched his endorsements one bit.

    You'll note that Hillary's endorsers......Rendell, Bayh, and what's his face from NC......they actually campaign together.

    Obama?  He has to distance himself from his endorsers.  LOL*

    Parent

    The problem with all of those choices (none / 0) (#170)
    by cmugirl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:01:32 PM EST
    (with the exception of Richardson, IMO) is that they would all outshine Obama.

    Parent
    I vote D no matter what, (none / 0) (#193)
    by eleanora on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:26:04 PM EST
    but if Bloomberg is on the ticket, I'm out.  He's a traitor to the Democrats, don't care if he's an Independent now. You don't get rewarded for turning Republican with a place on our presidential ticket, not ever. Even if Clinton was at the top, that's a dealbreaker for me.

    Parent
    Obama Needs To Change The Rulz (none / 0) (#206)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:53:52 PM EST
    He needs to be allowed 10 - 15 VPs on his ticket. <snark>

    Richardson ran a horrible campaign when he was trying for the top spot. It was actually painful to watch. Might be an asset to bring in latino voters but might hurt him in other areas.

    Casey on the ticket ensures  that I will definitely stay home. SCOTUS is the only reason I might even think about voting for Obama. I lack faith in what type of nominees to SCOTUS Obama would pick even now. Casey would reinforce my doubts and set up the possibility that if something tragic happened he would be the one making the picks. No way I would support that.

    Bloomberg would also mean I stay home. So far, Obama has indicated that he might place Republicans in positions of Sec. of Defense and State. Now he is thinking about selecting a Republican VP. If I wanted Republicans, I would vote for McCain.

    Parent

    Not sure that is (none / 0) (#118)
    by 0 politico on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:52:27 PM EST
    enough.  Particularly when he bit the hands theat made him.

    Parent
    How about Napolitano, but overall I agree if Obama (none / 0) (#146)
    by Salt on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:38:21 PM EST
    is the nominee then the intent is to throw the race.  But I also believe the landscape of American politics will change and I am hoping it will be for the good.  Both Party's brands have been raked through the mud, the MSM look like total hacks, the American electorate has every reason to ignore these two entities when determining who is a desirable candidate and will govern well in our interest.

    Parent
    I won't vote for a ticket (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:55:26 PM EST
    with Napolitano. She's just another law and order prosecutor-turned-politician. She's a former U.S. Attorney who also served as Arizona Attorney General.

    The New York Times says she allowed Arizona's enforcement-only, "toughest in the nation" immigration bill to become law there.

    If Obama picks a law and order politician like Napolitano, he's lost my vote.

    Parent

    I was living in AZ at the time (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:12:34 PM EST
    but, preparing to move back to WA, so didn't pay real close attention. Reports on the news were that emergency services, teachers, anyone who gave an illegal immigrant access to public services could be held criminally responsible.

    Someone from AZ is welcome to dispute that, of course.

    Parent

    Maybe I'm a cynic, but... (none / 0) (#167)
    by diogenes on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:01:06 PM EST
    I'd bet you'd vote for a ticket with Napolitano on it if Hillary headed it.

    Parent
    No on Napolitano... (none / 0) (#157)
    by white n az on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:52:29 PM EST
    turn a Democratic governor into a Republican (this is a 'resign to run state'), little chance of beating McCain, unable to bring other states in for Obama.

    Parent
    Not likely (none / 0) (#169)
    by ChrisO on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:01:15 PM EST
    considering that he couldn't even deliver the Latino vote to himself.

    Parent
    Guaranteed loss (none / 0) (#194)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:26:25 PM EST
    two whiners is four times worse than just one.

    Parent
    Bottomline....Sen. Clinton Is The Most Electable (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:03:01 PM EST
    More and more people are opening their eyes to the blatant pandering by obama and they know he is not going to help them.  You never get any sense of compassion from obama for anyone.  He will not be able to win over enough voters to keep the states dems thought they had in the bag, nor win the majority in red states.

    Not in Guam, though... (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Exeter on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:00:09 PM EST
    ...of course Guam shouldn't count, because neither candidate campaigned there!

    Parent
    i'm embarrassed to say (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:30:21 PM EST
    i don't even know where guam is.  also, i had no idea they even got to vote in our elections.  

    i feel like an idiot.

    Parent

    your honesty (none / 0) (#150)
    by hlr on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:45:15 PM EST
    is refreshing!

    Parent
    they don't get to vote (none / 0) (#162)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:56:26 PM EST
    they just get to be represented by delegates at the party convention.

    Parent
    Continental airlines stops there (none / 0) (#174)
    by jpete on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:05:37 PM EST
    on its way to Australia.  And it was important in the Pacific for WW II.  And now you have all I know.

    O, and the airport is hard to sleep in, just in case you've spent many hours on Continental....

    Parent

    Don't feel bad (none / 0) (#183)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:14:21 PM EST
    I've been there and still don't know exactly where it sits on the globe!

    Parent
    We're all Repubs now (none / 0) (#173)
    by diogenes on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:05:33 PM EST
    Hillary's supporters have been saying that Obama has no balls and is a pansy.  Ann Coulter would be proud of that approach.  Not even John McCain sang that he would "obliterate" Iran.  I guess outRepublicanning the Republicans makes you electable.  


    Parent
    On the divided Dems story, (5.00 / 9) (#3)
    by outsider on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:05:35 PM EST
    isn't the bottom line this:

    Obama appeals to groups - the young, students, AAs - who are overwhelmingly liberal anyway.  They are likely to go Dem in Nov, or stay at home.  HRC, by contrast, brings on board groups like Latinos, blue collar workers, etc., who may actually vote Republican if she is not the nominee.  So if you are a superdelegate, trying to minimise the damage from an acrimonious split in the party (and, let's face it, this <em>is</em> an acrimonious split), which way would you jump?

    hmm (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by outsider on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:06:23 PM EST
    serves me right for trying to use the special fonts buttons for once lol

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#8)
    by miguelito on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:07:29 PM EST
    like fingernails on a (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by jackyt on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:40:11 PM EST
    chalkboard...

    It really grates to hear Obama's supporters referred to as "liberal". Liberal implies openminded. Maybe we could start referring to O's followers as "trendy" or something else that implies jumping for the next shiny toy.

    Parent

    speaking of nails on a chalkboard (none / 0) (#133)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:15:14 PM EST
    if i hear him use the phrase "her and her husband" one more time, my head might explode.  every time he does it (i've heard it at least three times), i scream "SHE and her husband!" at the tv.  he's a columbia and harvard grad?  

    sorry for the rant, but i'm a bit of a grammar freak.  

    Parent

    I am, too... (none / 0) (#152)
    by jackyt on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:50:22 PM EST
    Thanks!

    Parent
    This is what I've been saying straight along (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by Trickster on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:05:56 PM EST
    He has to show voters who he really is. Most of them still don't know.

    Lost in all the praise that has been showered on Axelrod & Co. has been the fact that they didn't even attempt to showcase the new guy's bio--something that Bill Clinton ("The Man From Hope") did to great effect in '92.  I know there are some political problems with making that effort--time in Indonesia, dad not a citizen,  not a lot of experience--but that's why you call 'em pros.  If you're a real pro, you can take what you have and make it sing, and despite the problems and rough spots, there are enough notes in Obama's bio for a song.  They just didn't write it.

    They thought they could rely on his auto-biography, I guess, but it is admittedly semi-fictionalized and, like any pol's bio, it writes around the hard stuff.

    So, even to somebody like me who watches the politicians really hard, even at this late date Obama is something of a cypher--compared to feeling by May of 1992 that I knew Bill Clinton intimately.  In retrospect, the feeling was not false; I haven't significantly re-done my hit on Bill since Spring of '92.

    Anyway, Obama's a cypher, he's not really famous for any particular accomplishment, he's just that black guy that gives the good speeches about hope, so when something like Wright comes along it doesn't just stick to Obama, it identifies him.  Like it or not, Obama is better-known for Wright than for anything else.

    It makes me a litttle angry (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by MichaelGale on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:54:59 PM EST
    no just angry, that Dodd, Daschle, Leahy, Kennedy, Kerry and Axelrod just threw this guy in there and thought that we would just vote for him.  Like we were all stupid or something or that the entire Democratic Party of voters were all low information voters. I will vote for Obama if he names them as the "old" Washington politics which he contends, has to go.

    They are either very ignorant in their knowledge about voters or were just plain arrogant with their power. They had to know that he had baggage and that he was not yet ready. They had to know..

    Parent

    Clinton (5.00 / 7) (#69)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:58:51 PM EST
    has always bugged them.  No secret.  She's a real threat to the status quo.  Obama is not.

    I'm convinced of this.

    With him?  Things will putt along as usual.  She is far more challenging and will cause the party to work harder.

    They are essentially worried that she'll rock the boat.  And they are right.

    I'm totally convinced Hillary is the true change candidate, and I'm so ready for her......well, but that's me.

    Parent

    Most of those guys (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:38:59 PM EST
    are at the end of their political careers. They want someone who will give them the open door to leaving the legacy they want for themselves behind. Obama is so incredibly dependent on other people's experiences and know-how that they stand a much better chance of getting their self-serving agendas through.


    Parent
    and me! (none / 0) (#135)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:17:39 PM EST
    and me (none / 0) (#141)
    by DJ on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:28:09 PM EST
    Has anyone (5.00 / 5) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:07:44 PM EST
    considered the fact that Obama has a collection of losers supporting him? I'm not trying to be mean here but Ted Kennedy has backed every electoral loser the Dems have had for decades.

    The only good thing I can say if Obama is the nominee he will lose the general election. Once that election is lost we can take the party away from these perpetual losers. Pelosi included.

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:35:45 PM EST
    Look at the quality of the last major endorsements.  Andrews?  Obviously had pent-up emotions over Hillary.  Good golly, I feel like I need to send him flowers to help him heal.

    Michael Moore?  I LOVE his work.  That endorsement was embarassing.  I'm going to have to plunk him into my "creative but inept" class.  How ugly.  Nothing about Obama.  Everything about his hatred of Hillary.  Way wierd.

    Richardson?  Oh golly, didn't we all get sick of his "hurt" persona.  Nothing about Obama.  All about his hurt feelings.

    Nevermind his blogger groups who have completely made many of us actually declare ourselves Independent.

    Now, I'm one who thinks that his other supporters need a bit of tolerance.  They are screamers at this stage in life.  So they boo.  Big deal.  That's the stage they are in.

    But the rest?  No excuses.

    Parent

    Valid points (none / 0) (#134)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:17:22 PM EST
    but, do keep in mind there are internet cafe's all over the world where people are sitting there posting on these boards pretending to be Americans for Obama.  

    Our party is taking a huge image hit because of how vile much of the "debating" of candidates has become.  Once I saw the Gaza clip of one of their cafe's and why they were trying to help Obama, I stopped reading anything in all caps on all boards, among other attempts at safe-guarding the integrity of this race.

    Parent

    i could buy into that (none / 0) (#137)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:22:55 PM EST
    theory if the venom wasn't running rampant from the BLOGGERS on those sites (huffpo, dk, tpm, etc).

    delaware is a closed primary state.  we have a great democrat running in a gubernatorial primary on sept 9.  the morning of sept 10th, i will be changing my registration to independent.  

    i'm done with the democratic party.  i no longer feel aligned with the party - from the moronic pols who have endorsed obama to the idiotic bloggers who post such venomous things about bill, hillary and their surrogates (i'm still stinging from the way geraldine ferraro was treated).  i'm sickened by the lot of them.

    Parent

    Not saying it's 100% (none / 0) (#202)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:41:17 PM EST
    but, it is there.

    I went exploring Obama's own web site (in the comments area) and found links to all kinds of interesting foreign involvement in his campaign.

    On a light note, there's a guy in Australia who is trying to build up his blog site with pro-Obama only information. I found him on Obama's site asking people to be his friend.  I have posted multiple pro-Hillary arguments/defensives to the anti- posts and within a few hours of dawn in Brisbane, he takes my posts down.

    It's very eye-opening to see how passionately some countries want to influence our decision this election.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#138)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:22:58 PM EST
    That so hadn't even occurred to me.

    Parent
    Even I know our first AA president (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Joan in VA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:08:33 PM EST
    doesn't have relationships with radical preachers, domestic terrorists and slumlords. He will also run on policy and have accomplishments to back up his words. Who's low info-me or them?

    Parent
    I was relating to (none / 0) (#200)
    by MichaelGale on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:36:19 PM EST
    policy being detailed and validated by each candidate.  Many here, I think, are very astute re politics and policy change. We find it interesting and well worth the posts.

    For me only, change about the way Washington works has never been an issue for me, or I should say, that big an issue.  The Bush administration surely went off the track but then they are Republicans gone wild.

    I think change and hopefulness are very good words, but I am more reality based and don't believe that Obama is "the one".

    I don't think Obama is a terrorist.

    To each is own.

    Parent

    I have no way (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:16:11 PM EST
    of knowing so I probably shouldn't say this but it's been rattling around inside for quite awhile and I have to get it off my chest.

    I think that the Ks, Leahy, etc. think they can control him and I think they want firm control of the party.

    Trouble is, they wouldn't have the reach to control him in all circumstances.

    Parent

    Of course (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:21:04 PM EST
    Even Pelosi wants a president in her pocket.

    It's all about power grabbing.

    Parent

    I think they all bought R-W spin (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by wasabi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:39:11 PM EST
    I think the Dems all bought the right wing spin about Clinton being too devisive to win.  I am amazed to see some recent write-ups in the newspapers by reporters that are "impressed" with the enthusiasm at the Clinton rallies, and they had no idea that her supporters even cared.

    Parent
    So, so true (none / 0) (#16)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:13:42 PM EST
    this morning on MTP, Obama complained that people wanted to know who he is...more accurately, that Clinton was bad-mouthing him on the stump because the people wanted to know who he is.  He seemed to think that would help him, I guess.


    Parent
    Apparently CLinton hardly talks about (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by MarkL on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:22:28 PM EST
    Obama on the stump---this according to Mayhill Fowler, the Obama supporting journalist who broke the "bitter" story.
    Obama's just lying, as usual.

    Parent
    And, it's all proveable through the videos (none / 0) (#115)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:45:44 PM EST
    of every stump speech they've given in NC and Indiana.  He spends a good share of his time trashing Hillary with his "now, my opponent is out there telling you I'm this, and that while she ignores the issues..."  I'm telling you, it astonishes me that people don't get up and walk out.  He never quite gets to his policies or what he is going to do...instead he tells why he believes Hillary's won't work.

    Mayhill Fowler is actually an Obama supporter.  She's just more aware of who he is than most of them, and dares to publish the truth.

    Parent

    i read a comment somewhere (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:28:57 PM EST
    that made a remarkably good point.  obama's campaign is entirely about campaigning.  you could get a stopwatch and time how quickly his speeches become about the way he campaigns vs the way his opponent campaigns and how campaigns have been historically run and he's different because he campaigns differently and blah blah blah. never mind that it's complete bs - he has run a hideously negative campaign...he's just been way more subtle about it.  

    he talks incessantly about how things are and how he thinks they should be but has yet to offer an ounce of substance.  

    why can't they see that the emperor is naked????

    Parent

    Beats me why people don't see it (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by RalphB on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:41:10 PM EST
    because it's right out in the open for all to see.  Even today on CNN he talked about camapigning, talked about problems facing people, and not a whit about any solutions.  It's quite bizarre what people will cheer about today.


    Parent
    He's actually not subtle about it (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:51:34 PM EST
    he gets away with it by loudly, and constantly declaring it isn't him doing it, it's her.

    It was his campaigns pounding the demands that the Clintons release their tax returns, earmarks,
    Bill's library donors list, etc. that were the primary contributors to her trustworthy ratings plummeting.  No matter how many times her supporters commented that he also hadn't released his, they just kept it up.

    Fortunately, Hillary knows these perceptions are something she can easily reverse once the people see she is going to do everything she can to make their lives better.

    This is a truly historical election. Not only the first woman, but that woman is a former First Lady from the best administration we have enjoyed in decades. She and her husband are having their characters assassinated, their administration discounted as non-existent, and their dignity trashed by the Obama campaign. I can't forget that.

    Parent

    I just can't figure this out. He really is a (none / 0) (#175)
    by jpete on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:07:47 PM EST
    Pied Piper.

    Parent
    Whining won't get him elected (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by Cream City on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:00:20 PM EST
    and that was time he could have spent on what would get him elected -- what he could do for the voters.  They aren't whining.  They're hiring.

    (Btw, when I was in the business world and picking suppliers, my number-one rule was to not go with the guy who spent my meeting time by dissing his competition.  I wanted to hear what he could do for me and my employer -- and I also knew that whiners always whine, and I didn't want to waste my time again and again in a longterm business relationship that way.)

    Parent

    hiring (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by sleepingdogs on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:00:42 PM EST
    I spent 16 years as a buyer also.  I had the same rule.  What was funny to me was watching a whiner whine about the competition not knowing I already worked with them and knew that he had no idea what he was talking about.

    Now I'm sad all over again thinking Obama may be the nominee.

    Parent

    Obama isn't going to lose New York and he (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by tigercourse on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:06:29 PM EST
    won't win Colorado. They ignore the west state of New Mexico where Clinton polls better then Obama (and has the same number of electoral votes as Nevada).

    The Carolinas are likely a pipe dream as well. If we couldn't win them with Edwards, we won't win them without him. Most recent Virginia polls have shown McCain with a healthy lead, no?

    I find it interesting that New Hampshire (at least going by Ras) has moved back into the red column

    He's going to have to work for NY (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by nycstray on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:14:31 PM EST
    and possibly CA. McCain may also play well in NJ. How is he going to "change the map" when he has to spend time and resources hanging on to Dem states?

    I just don't see it. Clinton worked hard in parts of NY. The red parts that is. And she won re-election with 67%. They aren't going to just accept Obama. Heck, he may not play well in my Brooklyn 'hood and a few other sections of NYC. He may get the reliable dem votes, but what percentage is that? We can be pretty red at times. . . .

    Parent

    I don't believe he has the fight in him to do (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by thereyougo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:15:10 PM EST
    some cold calling campaigning, not after the primaries.

    Parent
    nycstray (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:23:29 PM EST
    has it right.  Obama would have to spend time and resources trying to hold NY and CA, absolutely  can't win without for any Democratic candidate.

    It's been years since Democrats have had to spend anything in CA and NY for the general election.

    Not saying he'd lose them but would have to expend precious resources making sure.

    Parent

    .. and for MA (none / 0) (#149)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:42:15 PM EST
    My state -- which has been solidly democratic in past Presidential elections (except for Reagan) -- is also in a similar state. I think Obama will have to spend resources here, esp. given
    • McCain may still pick Romney for VP
    • Deval Patrick (a candidate very similar to Obama) has done terrible here once elected as Governor
    • MA is an expensive place to live in, and it will get even more so given his policies on SS, healthcare, taxes -- esp. capital gains.


    Parent
    If McCain picks Romney (none / 0) (#164)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:59:25 PM EST
    Obama can say goodbye to Colorado. Romney was overwhelmingly the first choice in the Republican primary this year.

    Parent
    And Michigan. (none / 0) (#166)
    by oculus on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:00:54 PM EST
    I expect Romney to be VP (none / 0) (#176)
    by RalphB on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:08:30 PM EST
    selection for McCain.  He also shores up the economic portion of the GOP campaign.  

    Parent
    FWIW (none / 0) (#207)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:05:03 PM EST
    I live in a solidly Republican town -- always get those weird looks when I pick up the Dem. ballots from the ladies in the election halls :-) -- but talk around here has actually been how Romney helps McCain shore up his Republican base because of social issues not economics. I agree w/ your  pt. though - I think Romney has far more business experience w/ his VC background than all the other candidates.

    Parent
    He could lose NY, big time. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by kimsaw on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:34:49 PM EST
    The fact we just dumped the Democrat Gov.Spitzer because of scandal and  given the fact that Obama has his own issues of his own clarity he could lose here to McCain, the war hero. How do you think Wright's comment of the 9/11 conspiracy will play in NY. I know Obama denounced them, but 20 yrs of associating with Pastor Wright was about 19 too many. His relationship with Ayers, known home grown terrorist, will be working against the backdrop of the Twin Towers and John McCain. OBama could be in real trouble here. Just writing the contrast makes me cringe at the breadth with which NY Republicans can attack him.

    You have to recognize that upstate is still predominantly Republican. Right now in my area a new Republican candidate is neck and neck with favored Democrat to replace Congressman Walsh. Politics are local is so true. There will be limited down ticket potential with Obama here. Clinton will carry it off far better, as I've said before she will take the McCain demographic. The youth vote and AA vote may help Obama but he'll need more than that.

    Parent

    Agree and you can say the same for NJ on.. (none / 0) (#75)
    by alexei on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:04:03 PM EST
    Wright and 9/11.  He already is in extreme danger of losing MA.  So, solid blue states such as MA go red (very likely). Others such as CA, NY and NJ at the minimum, he will have to work hard for (funds and campaigning), and forget about the purple states, we are looking at a Dukakis and possibly if/when more Wright, Ayers, Rezko, etal to come out, a McGovern type defeat.

    Parent
    I don't know about (none / 0) (#114)
    by facta non verba on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:42:14 PM EST
    losing NY, NJ or MA but he would have to defend them and pour resources into these states, he would have to campaign in them not just fund raise (ditto CA that leaves less time and resources for the battleground states because suddenly there are more battleground states. Florida gone, Michigan gone. Ohio highly unlikely. Pennsylvania same. West Virginia forget about it. Colorado and Virginia hardly make up for the above.

    BTD likes to write that demographics are political destiny. Obama loses the most reliable voting group: those over 50. Among women over 50, you're going to see massive defections or stay at home. Hispanics, Clinton can carry them 3:1. Obama will split them. His disconnect with those who earn the median income ($40K) is telling. He thinks economics will bring them back. Some will no doubt but it is not just about economics to this group, it is also about values. Yesterday's special election in LA is telling. The Democrat won by running away from Obama, Pelosi and even Clinton. I'll bet you that McCain wins that district in LA 65% to 35% in November if Clinton is the nominee and 70%-30% if Obama is.

    Parent

    Obama could lose NY (none / 0) (#196)
    by Makarov on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:31:00 PM EST
    but I give that an outside chance at best.  He's much more likely, in my opinion, to lose NJ and PA.  I give Obama even less of a chance to win OH.  He can't win FL.

    That we're even discussing the chance a prospective nominee could lose NY state, though, says a lot about his electability.  Obama's not a roll of the dice, he's a hard six.

    Parent

    NY can be very fickle (none / 0) (#197)
    by themomcat on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:33:58 PM EST
    We have elected Republicans for NYC mayor and we have had several Republican governors as well as US Senators. Obama will be a tough sell upstate and in one district in NYC, the 13th, which is strongly Republican/Conservative. NY could be areal problem and a drain on resources. I don't think Obama is up to that kind of a tough fight.

    Parent
    2008 would have played different (none / 0) (#48)
    by Salo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:35:52 PM EST
    if he were on the top of the ticket.

    Kerry destroyed any potential southern vibe in 2004 just by being his brahmin self.  He also deprived any effort in NC of any advertizing.

    The VP doesn't nail down hostile territory if he's got no budget to fight in that hostile territory.

    Parent

    Last SUSA Poll 4/13 On VA (none / 0) (#61)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:50:16 PM EST
    McCain 52% Obama 44%

    SUSA SC

    McCain 48 Obama 45%
    McCain 48 Clinton 42%

    OH, PA and MI definitely at risk with Obama last I looked.

    Also, the polls indicate that Clinton, not Obama, has a chance at MO. I doubt that will occur unless the AA community was fully on board.

    Parent

    There's (none / 0) (#83)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:10:19 PM EST
    no way Obama wins either Carolinas. As far as I know, neither state has even had AA's elected statewide. And I think that the last polling did have Obama losing VA. Why would Obama do any better in VA than Kerry? Have things changed that much in the last few years?

    Parent
    He absolutely can lose NY (none / 0) (#168)
    by karen for Clinton on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:01:10 PM EST
    I lived there 47 years and watched it turn republican for no apparent reason.

    Pataki, D'Amato, Guiliani etc. NYC as well as the notorious red NYS and Long Island votes republican way too often to ever call it a dem sure win.

    The 5 boroughs have voted in republicans without any help from the other less dem counties.

    You better believe it, Hillary is a shoe in, she is WELL loved there.  Obama has a steep uphill climb and I totally believe it will become RED for McCain.  Wall Street loves republicans.

    It is NOT liberal overall.  It is very much lunch bucket old fashioned blue collar neighborhoods.  Queens and Brooklyn would by and large tell obama fergetaboutit.

     

    Parent

    MI and FL (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by nellre on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:08:39 PM EST
    Could we win in November without FL and/or MI?
    Has anybody bothered to poll these states since Obama failed to support re-votes in these states?

    They have (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:48:40 PM EST
    And almost nobody believes that Obama could win Florida. Some think that he might pull off Michigan, but it's a longshot.

    Parent
    McCain is already working on... (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by white n az on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:08:59 PM EST
    the white working class voters, that was the point of his proposal on the federal gasoline tax rollbacks, his own version of the poverty tour and has been the focus of all of his appearances the last few weeks.

    Obama has in essence written them off...witness his 'bitter/cling' remarks and Axelrod's interview on NPR.

    The fact is that the reason McCain the Republican nomination is because he was the only one who could have reached these voters whatever you want to call them (Reagan Democrats, bitter/clingy, etc.). McCain also completely marginalizes much of Obama's appeal to the Republican's and Independents and of course, there's the media.

    I think that even the notions of Obama putting Colorado and Virginia into play ignore the fact that if he is the nominee, then MA and PA are also in play and FL and OH are gone.

    In terms of electability, you would have to go back to pre-Wright, pre-bitter (prior to March 15) to find where Obama might be considered a viable candidate in the general election.

    Newsweek has been in the bag for Obama this primary season and they simply overlook the larger picture and have for quite some time.

    Good to know that Richard Wolfe took some time off from the grueling schedule of slamming Hillary daily on Countdown.

    I believe he's (none / 0) (#136)
    by waldenpond on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:19:36 PM EST
    touring with Obama.  I would say he's covering Obama's campaign, but we know that would be an incorrect description.

    Parent
    so you're suggesting... (none / 0) (#163)
    by white n az on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:58:54 PM EST
    that he has the added burden of having to lay down his pompoms so he can do his official lekking for Newsweek?

    Parent
    And he's not even CLOSE to being (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by miguelito on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:10:50 PM EST
    vetted in political terms. He's about due 4-5 more scandals (imagined or not) before he has the same amount of skin built up that Hillary had by 1992.  

    He's falling apart and he's got about 2 scratches.

    He has a glass jaw (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:50:07 PM EST
    Every time he gets hit his popularity crashes for a couple of weeks. All it's going to take for the right wing to win is one nicely timed "scandal". Maybe a week before the election or so.

    Parent
    Combine that with an October surprise (none / 0) (#73)
    by lambert on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:01:59 PM EST
    And he's toast.

    Parent
    And McCain? (none / 0) (#178)
    by diogenes on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:10:02 PM EST
    If you netbloggers and MSM people give one tenth of the attention to McCain's idiocies as you do to Obama's during the general election campaign, McCain will knock himself out.  The last time he was the frontrunner in 2007 he did just that, only to be resurrected by odd events (several bad repub candidates dividing the vote, Giuliani delaying his run).  

    Parent
    The McCain campaign (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by stillife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:12:03 PM EST
    is right.  My state (NY) is basically a conservative state, once you get outside the five boroughs.  Suburban counties like Nassau and Suffolk have been Republican for years.  Upstate is pretty red.  Hillary had to prove herself to those folks, and she did (that's my girl!).  

    Even within the city, we have a lot of Italians, Catholics, Jews, Latinos and Asians who are not necessarily in the tank for Obama.  9/11 is still a big issue to a lot of people here, and McCain will appeal (rightly or wrongly) for that reason alone.  

    If Obama's the nominee, I don't think he can take NYS for granted.

    Completely agree. NY becomes a swing. (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by miguelito on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:15:13 PM EST
    If Obama is the nominee, NY is not safely in his column.  NYers are way more conservative than the reputation they currently have. Even within Manhattan it is not hard to find Republicans.  We had a Republican Mayor since 1994, a Republican Governor up until last year.  And how glad are all those voters they gave Spitzer the Democrat a chance? Ripe for the Republican picking.

    Parent
    add California (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:17:51 PM EST
    Hispanics and the Valley people will not go over easily.  

    Parent
    I have a friend in Bay Ridge (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by nycstray on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:21:55 PM EST
    Republicans there. She calls it the Red Spot in Brooklyn, lol!~ My area is Seniors, Blue Collar, Catholics, Jews, Italians and Hispanic. We do have the Creative Class moving in, but it will be awhile before they change the 'hood. The majority of the 'hood still has a lot of old school Brooklyn.

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#26)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:17:57 PM EST
    I'm amazed to hear this.

    Parent
    California is not just the coast (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:19:50 PM EST
    Yeah, but McCain is just so (none / 0) (#38)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:26:34 PM EST
    McCain.  LOL*

    I'm not worried, personally.  The next president will be either Hillary or Obama.

    The entire issue is moot to me.  McCain just makes one blink a bit too often.

    I do think he'll get the older Dem vote.  I think Obama's youth vote will dry up, as it always does.  I don't think he'll pull in nearly what Hillary could in the Independent/Moderate-to-Conservative vote.  I do think he'll still have trouble pulling in working class votes.

    But the rest of us?  I think we'll hold our noses.  

    Parent

    Heh..hey voted for Arnie. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:29:08 PM EST
    California (none / 0) (#117)
    by facta non verba on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:47:02 PM EST
    is SF and LA and Oklahoma in the middle.

    Parent
    Kudos (none / 0) (#156)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:52:25 PM EST
    for an accurate description of CA.

    Just had to applaude.

    Parent

    70's I couldn't comment but I guess it has not changed. :-)

    Parent
    Hey! (none / 0) (#179)
    by waldenpond on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:11:12 PM EST
    I resemble that remark.

    Parent
    California is not as liberal as people think (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:56:11 PM EST
    Most of the San Francisco Bay Area is liberal, but the rest of the state ranges from mixed to far right wing. Even "liberal" Los Angeles has a large percentage of Republicans. 3 of our last 4 governors were Republicans, and the Democrat was ridden out of town on a rail. I don't think California would go Republican, but it's not impossible. We tend to be more moderate than anything, and McCain has a reputation for being a moderate. It may be undeserved, but it's going to be hard for the Democratic Party to change the public's perceptions.

    Parent
    Oh, so right (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:02:34 PM EST
    I'm from So. Cal.  Obama only won 3 counties in CA.  He was truly obliterated, even as the balloons from his huge Super-Tuesday gala affair were still visible in the sky.  :)

    He was blasted right out.

    But we have real reasons, too, to push him away.  I keep pointint out the old boring stuff, but his health care plan will kill us.

    It's allows the current "must treat uninsured" policies to continue.  That's our issue.  It's killed off 11 major medical centers in So. Cal. alone over the past 5 years.  We can't take more of that nonsense.

    Either it's universal....or forget it.

    Parent

    Basically... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by OrangeFur on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:27:45 PM EST
    ... other than DC, there are no states that will never vote for Republicans. This was shown by Nixon in 1972 and Reagan (the one who brought clarity, dynamism, and entrepreneurship back to America) in 1984.

    With the right Republican candidate and the wrong Democratic one, as well as the right national mood, just about anything can happen. I don't think any of those three is true this year.

    Still, I'd be astonished if McCain can make a race of it in New York. But maybe I should re-evaluate, given the polls showing a tight McCain-Obama race in Massachusetts.

    Parent

    IMO, with Obama as the nominee (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by stillife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:58:36 PM EST
    there is a "perfect storm" of unelectable Dem candidate vs. "acceptable" Repub candidate.  Weird how the Repubs, in all their ineptitude, managed to pick the candidate who would most likely appeal to conservative Dems.

    I just don't see how Obama is electable in November. He's got tons of baggage, which is only now begnning to be be revealed, and he's demonstrated little ability to deal with it.  I do believe he'll most likely be the nominee, but I also believe that you can stick a fork in him - he's done!

    Parent

    Slight aside (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:12:44 PM EST

    In the first page the article has the following:  
    "An exit poll of Pennsylvania voters included a chilling number that makes one wonder if Americans, or at least some groups in some parts of America, are ready to elect a black president. In the poll, 12 percent of whites said that race was a factor in deciding their votes"

    Why is the fact that 90% of the African American voters are voting for Obama based solely on race not an equal chilling aspect.  

    Thing is... (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by outsider on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:17:27 PM EST
    Imagine you are leaving the polling station.  You voted HRC, in part because you were not happy about the way the Obama campaign used racial sensitivities to its own advantage ("played the race card").  You are asked by an exit poller whether race was a factor in your voting.  You say, accurately, that it was.

    Blame the non-specific question.  Or, better, blame the fact that interpreters of the results have assumed that the only way in which race could be factor is if it is a negative factor, and the voter is a racist.

    Parent

    Bingo (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:59:09 PM EST
    "Race" has played a huge role in my decision to boycott the Democratic Party if Obama wins, and it has nothing to do with not wanting a black President. I was actually quite excited about the idea of having Obama as President until his campaign started race-baiting. It's not his race that matters, it's the fact that he has brought race into this election in such a negative way.

    Parent
    This is exactly why Obama will lose.... (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by p lukasiak on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:11:59 PM EST
    people who support Clinton do so because they see her as, hands down, the more qualified candidate.

    All of the race-baiting that is going on is leaving the impression that Obama will be a "quota" nominee...not even an "Affirmative Action" nominee, but he'll be the nominee solely because he is black, and the Democrats are afraid to alientate their black constituents -- and there seems to be no concern on the part of the race-pimps about alienating anyone else.  

    Fair or not, like it or not, that is how this thing is being perceived in middle america (I just spent the day in "middle america", and none of these people were fans of Clinton, but they were all NOT voting for Obama.)  

    what we are looking at is 1972 all over again -- a disaster for the Democratic Party.  In 1972, the GOP was able to successfully paint the Dems as having been taken over by people who were out-of-touch with the mainstream.  Bill Clinton began the rehabilitation of the party, and if Obama is the nominee, it will be another couple of decades before a whole lot of people trust the Democratic party again.

    Parent

    It didn't have to be this way (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:22:28 PM EST
    Obama could have run a fair campaign, and he probably would have lost, but honorably. And he would have established his bona fides as a charismatic, intelligent, serious rising politician and could have come back in 8 years as an experienced frontrunner. But his campaign managers decided to "go nuclear" when he started losing. They acted as if the primary was the prize and forgot that we are trying to win a Presidential election, not just a primary.

    Clinton really has run a pretty straightforward campaign. She has attacked Obama fairly on his lack of experience and set herself up to be competitive in the general election if she wins the primary. If anything, they have been overcautious in calling out Obama's campaign on it's blatant race-baiting. She should have drawn the line when they called Bill's comments about Jesse Jackson racist. But she didn't want to alienate black voter's by dismissing their concerns, so she didn't. That may cost her the primary.

    Parent

    plus I don't believe Hillary is biased in that way (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by thereyougo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:28:32 PM EST
    Look at the congressional reps who back her, Stephanie Tubbs, Sheila Jackson Lee, who are campaigning with her on stage, and Alica Palmer, who was done wrong by Obama. Hillary was also Obama's mentor and had his family's picture in her office.

    Clearly she has loyal AA supporters, Maggie Williams is her campaign manager. She's the real deal, not to say she has made me happy with all her votes, but I understand why she voted that way. Mostly out of compromise.

    Its not an fair or accurate picture that Hillary is some kind of racist, after all she's married to the FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT ! They don't refer to him in those terms for nothin'`

    Parent

    and such an opportunistic way. (none / 0) (#131)
    by jackyt on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:12:53 PM EST
    I don't think for a minute that Obama offers any benefits to AA's or any other minority. He only started acknowledging his "blackness" when he realized he needed a big bump in his support if he was going to be able to win an actual primary (as opposed to a caucus), and that was an identifiable constituency he could appeal to/coerce. Before that, he was above it all. I don't see any commitment from him on human rights.

    Parent
    Actually, (none / 0) (#30)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:21:11 PM EST
    that specific non-specific question would get the answer "no" from me.  There is a difference between racism and the race card.

    Parent
    It would from me too. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by outsider on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:37:40 PM EST
    That's because I would anticipate the way the data would later be used.  My point is, the question is not written in such a way as to imply, nor would it be asked in such a way as to imply, "Did you vote the way you did because you are a racist?"  

    Parent
    Thank you! (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by stillife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:21:11 PM EST
    Why don't they ask the same question of AA Obama supporters?  If the poll is to be believed (and I take all of them with a large grain of salt), it's a small percentage of Dem voters in PA who cited race as a factor.  I've voted for AA candidates countless times, such as my Congressman, Ed Towns (a Hillary supporter).  Barack, it's not your race - some of us are just not into you.  

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Steve M on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:49:47 PM EST
    They did ask the question.  About two-thirds of the black voters said that race was not a factor.  I'm not sure who they think they're kidding.

    Parent
    So in fact (none / 0) (#72)
    by stillife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:01:26 PM EST
    more black voters than white voters acknowledged that race was a factor.  Interesting how that didn't make the news.

    Parent
    because Blacks say it doesn't matter... (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by p lukasiak on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:45:03 PM EST
    Seriously....

    of the African Americans in Pennsylvania who said race was not a factor for them, 8% voted for Clinton, and 92% voted for Obama.

    but lets actually look at what really happened...

    In the poll, 12 percent of whites said that race was a factor in deciding their votes"

    first off, who ever wrote that article is an idiot, because 12% of whites didn't say race was a factor -- 12% of all voters were whites who said that race was a factor.  The percentage of white voters who said race was a factor was actually 13.6%  (66% of voters were whites who said that race was not a factor.)

    And 24% of the white people who said race was a factor voted for Obama.  So, what you are looking at in reality is maybe 10% of the PA white Democratic electorate saying that race played SOME role in the decision.   "Race was a factor" is a combined response -- it includes both those who said it was "most important" (5% of all voters), and those who said it was "one of several" (14% all voters.)

    And I would have been among those who would have answered this it was "one of several factors".  I'd love to have a black president, and I'd love to have a woman president, and Obama being black was a plus for me, as was Clinton's gender -- so both race and gender were factors for me.  

    Parent

    Race never was a factor for me (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Cream City on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:06:42 PM EST
    as I have voted for many AA candidates locally.

    Race is now a factor for me -- in the case of any pol who throws the racism charge at fine people.  I am watching my AA officials here closely on that now.  One such move from them, and my vote is gone.

    Parent

    My Representative is Corrine Brown (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Florida Resident on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:12:26 PM EST
    and I am proud to say it.  I voted for her in 2002, 2004 and 2006 even though I was a registered Republican at the time.

    Parent
    Brown supports Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Josey on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:38:35 PM EST
    The Black Caucus has been pressuring Hillary endorsers to switch and I admire Brown's courage.


    Parent
    Brown is not perfect (who is?) but (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Florida Resident on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:50:33 PM EST
    I remember her in 2000.  She has more cojones than all  of those men in the senate then.

    Parent
    Interesting power struggle (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:52:53 PM EST
    In the beginning of the campaign, lots of AA younger people were angry as they still are with the Congressional Black Caucus support of Hillary.  Quite a few time I was reading about the older civil rights generation monopolizing and basically not being up to date on the new "race" issues.  In that same criticism preachers were included.  AA families were and are divided on the generational issue.  Now, it seems to have been suppressed and a united front is being presented since the Clintons were "framed" as racists.  

    Frankly, this is the single issue, that I will have a hard time trusting Obama on anything.  He sold out the AA community, the Clintons and all the people that have stood by, his preacher and his grandma.  In politics, one thing is a sure loss:  Not standing by people.  

    Parent

    Some issues (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:46:18 PM EST
    do not yield true results through direct polling.  I think race issues is one.

    I have absolutely no problem with Obama winning 90% of the AA vote.  Obviously that's "racism."  But to me, anyway, there's a difference between "racism" and "racial pride."

    This is about racial pride.  That's why Hillary and Bill went to every single AA event and repeatedly said, "We get it."

    There is no hard feelings there on their part.  There may be hard feelings against Clyburn, et al, for painting them as racists.  That's fair.

    But none against the voters.  This is a very exciting race for AA voters, with good reason.

    Is it race-oriented?

    Obviously.

    Is that necessarily bad for the country?

    Not at all.

    Parent

    Race (none / 0) (#127)
    by bobbski on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:05:31 PM EST
    "Why is the fact that 90% of the African American voters are voting for Obama based solely on race not an equal chilling aspect."

    Excellent question.

    Don't expect the answer:  "Double standard" to be written about any time soon.  

    Parent

    What do you mean? (none / 0) (#177)
    by pie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:08:40 PM EST
    Don't expect the answer:  "Double standard" to be written about any time soon.

    Parent
    Now they think they could take (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:14:25 PM EST
    South Carolina?  Wow.

    I belive in the 50 State strategy, but we've only effectively invested two years into that project.

    I don't care how groovy people think Obama is, he's not going to work miracles like that one.

    Exactly (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by xspowr on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:41:41 PM EST
    The 50 State Strategy only works as a long-term, bottom-up model based on building up state and local party organization first. It's literally years, if not decades, away from viability. This top-down, all-at-once nonsense from Camp Obama is simply delusional, and in fact very harmful to the 50 State Strategy going forward, particularly if we experience an electoral disaster in November.

    Parent
    they still think it's possible (none / 0) (#42)
    by Salo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:29:58 PM EST
     you have to laugh.

    The only super majority could have been offered by Edwards, and I suspect we would only be talking about winning in Missouri, Ohio, West V, Tenneessee, Penn: more the border stares.

    Parent

    You're right (none / 0) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:18:45 PM EST
    Edwards was probably the only candidate that could have picked off a state south of the Mason Dixon. Hillary has a shot at the border states like WV, AR and MO. I would consider her taking those away from McCain a great success.

    Parent
    Polls (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:16:39 PM EST
    This election cannot be based on polls.  There are few if any previous races to use as a standard.  What the SDs have to look at and what it should be about are the following:  

    1.  The country is ready for Democratic leadership.  We need a cored Democrat not a so so democrat.

    2.  Someone who can run a tough campaign.

    3.  Someone who is not weak.

    4.  Someone who has real breadth and is not just an autobiography.  

    All the polling stuff can go either way.  In the end result, who will make a better president.  The Dems can win it.  But we need a Dem who will be a great president, not an entry level community organizer.  

    I had to laugh at this too... (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by outsider on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:33:24 PM EST
    "Nuclear option".  Heh.

    "They're so desperate at Camp Clinton that they want to count all the votes!"

    "See - she's a war monger!  She wants to *completely obliterate* Barack!"

    It was always stupid (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Edgar08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:35:40 PM EST
    You can't change something that was never going to change anyway.

    But it was Obama's own darn fault for giving people the expectation that he could.


    dems coming together depends on how (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by neilario on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:44:50 PM EST
    i want hrc. i believe she will be a great prez. and i appreciate she says if obama gets nom we should all do a good dem thing and get together. BUT to me and alot of other hrc fans it depends on how it happens. if the nom is picked without fl and mi then they are not legitimate for alot of people. if it puts hrc over bo supporters will say foul and vice versa..... if hrc has the pop vote and he has the delegate lead then fl and mi are counted  it will depend on what happens next.

    this is an important point to me because alot of hrc folks will not see the process as fair - so they will not turn out for him. I wont. she has the momentum and the electibility now. BO has to regain the momentum  make a credible electibility arguement which i dont think he can with wright now [ and rezco and ayers....] and fl and mi have to be including in the decision process - otherwise there will not be dem unity no matter what folks - even my candidate says.

    Meredith Viera asked Obama and his wife (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by thereyougo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:38:19 PM EST
    if he would accept the will of the SDs if it should it not give him the nom,but he never answered the question.

    Hillay OTOH, said she'd back him and speaks of unity after the candidate is chosen. No such words from Obama -- the unity candidate._

    Parent

    They both refused to answer (none / 0) (#122)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:56:05 PM EST
    plenty of her questions.  They want the American people to "just trust them" but they sure aren't going to trust us.

    Parent
    November (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Pat Johnson on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:45:57 PM EST
    None of us can accurately portray the voting sentiment in November but a few things do fit into the possibility of a McCain win.  There are voters out there who are not political junkies like us.  They get their news from a 3 minute soundbite.  The GOP, with very little to run on, is going to come after Obama big time.  The flag pin, Rev. Wright, Ayres, Rezko, Michele's comments, etc., will be playing on a 24 hour loop.  An undecided may accept these comments as fact.  The white male may see Obama as a left leaning, unpatriotic unknown and decide to vote McCain for just the opposite portrayal.

    The female voter, who has been marginalized and ridiculed for supporting Hillary, may just decide to either stay home or write in her name.  A certain number of votes may be lost from that constituency who are angry to say the least.

    The voters in FL and MI, however that turns out in the end, may show their displeasure by doing the same or go over to McCain to show the DNC their displeasure.

    Winning numbers in the caucus states may not be enough to assure a victory.  Those numbers do not wholly reflect the entire electorate of those states.

    In other words, and this is speculative, you cannot count on a win for Obama based on these issues.  It could all come down to haunt the Dems in the end for sticking with a candidate who may not be as attractive a winner as originally supposed.  

    FL is very military with many retirees too (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Josey on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:40:54 PM EST
    Obama only won in university-connected counties and that was pre-Wright.
    He could not win FL.


    Parent
    You could be (none / 0) (#160)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:53:44 PM EST
    right.

    I do feel marginalized and ridiculed.

    And it really hurts.

    Parent

    We should extract as heavy a price as possible (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by lambert on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:55:11 PM EST
    Too bad Obama couldn't flog the Unity Pony over the finish line in time. He may still be able to drag it over the finish line, but I don't think dragging a defunct, deceased pony is going to work real well in the general. Meanwhile, Obama, through inexperience, has strewn the electoral landscrape with landmines of his own making. It won't be Wright, though that's enough of a problem. It will be Obama on Wright in Philly, with "I can no more disown," and Obama five short weeks later in his presser, disowning Wright.

    So, if Obama wins the nomination, we need to extract as heavy a price as possible at once, so he doesn't disown us later. I would say a series of speeches laying out his universal health care plan, and fixing the broken parts. Hillary -- well, ideally Elizabeth -- could write the speech; he could add the anaphora, and read it.

    I Want A FIRM Answer On What Types Of (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:27:17 PM EST
    people he will appoint to the SCOTUS with examples. If I am going to be blackmailed into voting for Obama using these appointments, I want a firm commitment not just a vague "Well they will be better than McCain appointments."

    Parent
    I like that. Not will you get Clinton voters (none / 0) (#82)
    by Cream City on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:09:37 PM EST
    but, specifically, how are you gonna get us?  Which of our issues are you going to get explicit about, what promises will you make us?

    Start with that SCOTUS argument that keeps being tossed at us.  Convince me, for one.  The record -- of votes, of recent comments from Obama -- does not do so.

    Parent

    I guess I'm the odd man out (none / 0) (#144)
    by waldenpond on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:32:43 PM EST
    here.  I could care less what he says in the GE.  If he wasn't able to do it in the primary... it isn't going to happen.  If he was a strong candidate with firm positions and ideas on implementation, that's one thing.  To run a primary on Clinton-hate and then try to pivot for the GE, does not interest me.  He ran a Clinton-hate primary, he'll run a Repub-hate GE.  I imagine he will never spend much time on policy... sorry, but he hasn't got them nor the wherewithall to get them done.

    Parent
    A little off- and on-topic . . . (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by GMN on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:57:16 PM EST
    Has anyone here read this post on No Quarter?  

    Texas Caucus Fraud

    Is this yet another shoe waiting to drop on Obama's head?

    No Quarter is a blog operated by Larry Johnson, who worked previously with the C.I.A and U.S. State Department's Office of Counter Terrorism

    So glad you brought it up, it's on topic (none / 0) (#126)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:04:49 PM EST
    in my opinion.  We have seen some remarkable changes in the voting process this presidential season.  All on the side of the democrats, and all involving the Obama campaign.

    There have been serious questions raised in Nevada, Texas, Washington on the bullying tactics and lock-outs against Clinton supporters from caucuses, there was something about one of the midwest states where I read the Obama camp was claiming Richardson had dropped out of the race, so those planning to vote for him should change their vote to Obama, etc.  

    I am extremely concerned about the absence of media attention and immediate investigations ordered against every one of these allegations.  The democrats owe it to themselves to get these things cleared up before the convention.

    What is it that has caused us to step back and be so accepting of such dirty tactics? Obama is running the absolute dirtiest campaign I've ever seen from a democrat.  

    Parent

    please put it on an open thread (none / 0) (#172)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:04:48 PM EST
    it's off topic here and we close comments at 200. I'd like to everyone to have the ability to comment on the topic of the thread.

    Parent
    and VOOM! Feeweeweewee! (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by lambert on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:07:43 PM EST
    Mr. Praline: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this Unity Pony wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!

    Owner: No no! 'E's pining!

    Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This Unity Pony is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e  rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the stall 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the track! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-UNITY PONY!!

    Unity pony (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by trillian on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:14:18 PM EST
    But he's got lovely plumage

    Parent
    Love the "dead parrot" skit (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Cream City on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:16:11 PM EST
    and greatly enjoyed your revision of it.  You're correct, it is wonderfully applicable -- we need it redone with voiceovers for YouTube. :-)

    Parent
    leadership realizes that the insulting of Large groups of voters and the Clintons is counterproductive if Obama end up being the nominee and they make his surrogates stop doing it.

    Remember about a year ago, when it was the (5.00 / 8) (#97)
    by Anne on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:24:30 PM EST
    easiest thing in the world to be a Democrat?  When it seemed like a no-brainer that we would take back the WH in triumph?

    Frankly, it kind of pisses me off that it's become such a struggle, although I tell myself that these are long-overdue growing pains which have no respect for timing; I just hope the pain does not crescendo on November 4th with a crushing defeat that can be tied directly to the Democratic "leadership" that was determined to force an unelectable candidate on us.

    Sigh.

    I think Hillary is more electable than Obama.  I think Obama is a drag on the ticket even in the #2 spot.  If the GOP is already using Obama as a club in its ads, how much worse will it get in September - or earlier - if he is the nominee?

    At this stage of the game, I want a president who is not working out issues of identity on the job.  I want someone who does not begin a fight already willing to compromise.  I want someone who understands that there is a reason some of us are Democrats and some of us are not: we don't favor privatization of Social Security, we do want universal health care, we do want to protect a woman's right to choose, we aren't interested in sucking up to the energy industry, we don't believe Ronald Reagan deserves a pedestal, we aren't interested in GOP talking points. We want a nominee who can lead on issues we believe in - real unity is not finding some mushy middle ground that no one is happy with.

    Hillary has already shown that she does not give up, that she is not bored by talking to people about good policy, that she is energized by the wonky details, that she knows who she is and what she believes in, that she does not fall down when she is punched, that she can win the bg states we need in order to get to the 270 elctoral votes that will give us back the WH.

    I'm pulling for a convincing win in Indiana, and a squeaker in NC that will have already committed SD's thinking twice and the still uncommitted moving toward Hillary.

    If she won't back down, neither should we.

    Obama just told an audience in Indiana (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by athyrio on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:56:10 PM EST
    that when they go thru hard times, they lose their sense of dignity and that line was met with total SILENCE ....not a good way to identify with a blue collar audience .....

    Heh, still hanging on to the bittercling (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by nycstray on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:13:57 PM EST
    eh? Well, he might as well bring up their sense of dignity, he's been telling them for the past few days that pennies a day don't matter . . .

    Wonder why his DNA hasn't kicked in so he can learn how to connect with people and ride the Unity Pony . . .

    Parent

    Heard that and thought huh? (none / 0) (#140)
    by RalphB on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:25:18 PM EST
    He seemed to spend the whole time outlining the problems but, when it came time for solutions, it was just vote for me to change Washington.  He spent time talking about his bio.  At this stage of a campaign, it shouldn't be about bio anymore it has to be about solutions for voters.


    Parent
    link? (none / 0) (#192)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:25:58 PM EST
    is that online somewhere?

    Parent
    Who was covering (none / 0) (#198)
    by waldenpond on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:36:00 PM EST
    this? c-span, cnn?  It would be interesting to see.

    Parent
    I can't find a link (none / 0) (#201)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:41:16 PM EST
    or reference to Obama saying:

    That when they go thru hard times, they lose their sense of dignity and that line was met with total SILENCE ....not a good way to identify with a blue collar audience .....

    can anyone help?

    Parent

    I saw it on CNN (none / 0) (#204)
    by RalphB on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:50:08 PM EST
    ballot bowl this afternoon.  That part of his speech did not get an audience response at all.

    Parent
    Western States (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by DaleA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:09:22 PM EST
    How can a Democrat win in the West without Hispanic/Latino votes? This argument that Obama opens up new markets for our brand ignores the simple fact that he appears to have very little appeal to them. Nor to Asians. These two groups make up almost one half the population of CA. Any disaffection by them, and we can not win here.

    Youth vote (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by stillife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:24:18 PM EST
    Emma, my 18-year-old daughter, just told me that she was the only one in her dorm who voted in the primary on Super Tuesday. (She voted for Hillary, even though her true love is Kucinich).  Even though Hillary wasn't her first choice, she was so psyched about casting her vote!  She credits me and her dad for raising her to be politically aware.

    She says that a lot of the kids (particularly the guys) were for Ron Paul, and then switched to Obama.  But when it came down to it, nobody actually bothered to vote.  

    I know it's purely anecdotal, but IMO it shows that the youth vote is not reliable.  I am proud that both my kids have voted in every election since they've turned 18.  But apparently, they're the exception to the rule.

    I think you've hit on an important point (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by cmugirl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:50:57 PM EST
    The youth vote has never been reliable.  That's not to say it couldn't ever be reliable, but once you get past his bio, and the fact that he was "fresh" and "yes wecan" stuff, are they going to be interested come November?  With 8 weeks between the end of the Republican convention, when McCain will get an automatic bounce, and Election Day, "yes, we can" isn't going to cut it. And while I don't think McCain is any world class debater, he has been around and knows how the game is played. He'll also have some great lines that will turn into YouTube soundbites, while Obama is still telling the nation that "we are the ones we've been waiting for."

    Not gonna cut it.

    Parent

    Bush Was Lousy At The Debates (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:18:13 PM EST
    Gore and even Kerry to some degree won the debates and yet the media managed to turn their skills against them. Obama in some ways combines the attributes that were branded as negative for Gore and Kerry. He can at times sound condescending and inpatient (Gore's labels) and gives wordy answers that obscures the main point (Kerry).

    Parent
    Ear of the beholder. AP (none / 0) (#186)
    by oculus on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:19:47 PM EST
    review of Obama and Clinton's TV appearances this morning says Obama was eternally smooth and comfortable and Clinton was over-eager to please.

    Parent
    I saw Obama on MTP (none / 0) (#11)
    by maritza on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:09:24 PM EST
    He has really refrained his argument to appeal to American values.  He was good on the show.

    If Obama can continue to approach, he can get the Reagan Democrats to vote for him.  Plus a Reagan Democrat running mate to run with him will help such as Montana's governor, Senator Webb, Governor Kaine, etc.

    Good? (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:17:19 PM EST
    on MTP? He spent way too much time criticizing Hillary.  Russert just let him go on and on about why her policies were bad...then, there wasn't time for him to say what his policies were or why they would be better.

    Parent
    Yep... (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:19:04 PM EST
    was looking for the meat and found his DNA.  

    Parent
    Russert (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by tree on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:53:47 PM EST
    Did Russert offer him a pillow?

    Parent
    reframing his argument... (5.00 / 10) (#40)
    by p lukasiak on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:28:24 PM EST
    isn't going to help him with the voters he needs.

    There is a reason why Hillary Clinton does well among the "working class" voters --- she's worked at it.  No one seems to give Clinton credit for her accomplishments -- they act as if there is some kind of natural affinity between a white upper-middle class female graduate of Wellesley and Yale law and working class voters.  She's gotten to know these people as First Lady of Arkansas, and as the Senator for all of New York State --- and she reflects their concerns, because she understands what really matters to people.

    Obama can reframe his schick all he want to -- and the cable pundits who are about as tuned into the working class as Obama is will praise him for it.  But its not going to matter, because its not real -- its just a "reframing" of his old schtick.

    Parent

    Obama's problem... (5.00 / 10) (#45)
    by OrangeFur on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:33:36 PM EST
    ... is that he said what he really thinks in San Francisco.

    It comes out in lots of ways--his repeated claim that people are reluctant to vote for a black man named Barack Obama; the superior, lecturing tone he took in his much ballyhooed race speech, and the bald statement that people are voting for Hillary not because they agree with her, but because they are provincial and prejudiced--but it's clear that Obama looks down on a whole lot of the American people. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to find out he looks down on me, too.

    Democrats who wonder why the people we insult don't vote for us when we'd be kinder to their pocketbook. We greatly underestimate the value people put on dignity.

    Parent

    A great line (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by kenoshaMarge on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:46:19 PM EST
    Democrats who wonder why the people we insult don't vote for us when we'd be kinder to their pocketbook. We greatly underestimate the value people put on dignity.

    Pundits are always wailing about why  people vote against their own best interests. Your last line explained a lot of it.

    And the same dunderheads that spend all their time insulting Hillary supporters are all ready doing their best to alienate Senior voters by making demeaning "old timer" jokes about McCain.

    Never underestimate people's willingness to cut of their nose to spite their face if you get them mad enough.


    Parent

    Here's a truly beauiful example of that (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by lambert on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:58:38 PM EST
    Frequent Cheetopia poster JedReport:

    I do hope people don't stereotype him just because he's old and senile. Maybe he shouldn't run because the last thing the elderly in this country need is the triggering of ugly stereotypes about their bowel habits. They already suffer from enough incontinence.

    Vegas material. I'm tellin ya, the kid's a winna!

    Parent
    Seriously. (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Marco21 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:25:54 PM EST
    My mom is 75 and hasn't voted Republican ever. She likes McCain already and is damn sick of the "he's too old" material floating around.

    Parent
    I wouldn't even call it... (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by OrangeFur on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:19:48 PM EST
    ... spite. It's just a sense of self-worth.

    Most of us would rather work at a place that values us than a place where we're not respected even if the second place offers a little more money.

    When Democrats make it clear that we think certain people are ignorant or misguided, they won't vote for us. I'm sure a lot of people who voted for George W. Bush in 2004 didn't think he was the smartest candidate, but they did think that he respected them and their way of life. Obama has already made it clear that he doesn't.

    I still think the Democrats will win this election, given how sour the country is on Bush and the Republicans. But it's not a given.

    Parent

    Why not a Reagan Republican? That is more (none / 0) (#13)
    by MarkL on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:11:46 PM EST
    his style, don't you think?

    Parent
    That Montana Governor will have to answer (none / 0) (#19)
    by tigercourse on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:14:37 PM EST
    questions about why he was a Romney supporter.

    Parent
    Hmm? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Steve M on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:46:48 PM EST
    Brian Schweitzer supported Romney?  Are you sure?

    Parent
    Brian Schweitzer? (none / 0) (#189)
    by eleanora on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:23:13 PM EST
    No way, my governor is a true-blue Dem with a dry sense of humor. If he said he liked Romney for some reason, I guarantee you there was a twist to the tale somebody missed, like he'd rather have the Dem nominee run against Romney than McCain. Anyway, we can't afford to lose Schweitzer from MT right now--he's cruising easily to re-election this fall, but no Dem in the state could step in to replace him.

    Parent
    Wouldn't it be nice... (none / 0) (#35)
    by OrangeFur on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:23:53 PM EST
    ... if we had a candidate that could appeal to all parts of the country, instead of just to some parts of it? Maybe go for 370 electoral votes instead of 270? Take not just the Democratic base and the big industrial states of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois, but add southern states like Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana; western states like Colorado and Montana, as well as border states such as Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and West Virginia?

    Wouldn't that be great?

    Such a candidate would surely be admired by all Democrats as one of our best leaders, right? As Democrats, we would never trash that person's reputation and act as if that person's eight years in office were a dark age when it was in fact a long period of peace and prosperity, right?

    I suppose that would be too much to hope for, given that our transcendent "once in a lifetime" candidate, the promised one who would expand the map to new places, is busy trying to somehow scrape together a bare majority of electoral votes.

    One day, maybe. We can hope.

    We had one (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:08:29 PM EST
    But he was a white man, so he had to drop out of the race early because he didn't fit into the media's narrative for this primary.

    Parent
    Not to me (none / 0) (#49)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:37:02 PM EST
    BUT I do dream of a day when people learn how to disagree with one another civilly.

    Now, that's worth shooting for.

    I do not wish to live in a world where we're all alike in our self-interests.  How boring that might be.

    But....respect for one another?  I love that ideal.

    Parent

    I was playing with (none / 0) (#51)
    by Makarov on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:43:42 PM EST
    the electoral maps on the margins of mydd.com, and I can see Clinton getting over 340.  Beyond that would require some things to happen that conventional wisdom says cannot.  Yet, given the results of last night's runoff, maybe places like LA and TN aren't completely out of reach for her.

    Parent
    Thats not a set piece fight (none / 0) (#66)
    by Salo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:58:33 PM EST
    the GOP will be unified for nov.

    Parent
    Indeed. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Joan in VA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:38:44 PM EST
    I often read a couple (none / 0) (#44)
    by Makarov on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:33:25 PM EST
    of the "A-listers", if nothing more than to see how they're trying to frame the narrative.  I hope this doesn't get me banned here, but I'll also admit to watching FoxNews and MSNBC on occasion for the same reason.  

    If you don't want to read it, by all means don't.

    welcome but you (none / 0) (#171)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:03:23 PM EST
    have to be on topic and your first comment wasn't, it was just a slam on Hillary on a topic that didn't have to do with electability.  It's gone now.

    Parent
    My mistake (none / 0) (#199)
    by Makarov on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:36:05 PM EST
    it should've gone in an open thread

    Parent
    Indiana JJ dinner tonight! (none / 0) (#57)
    by Josey on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:47:22 PM EST


    Obviously (none / 0) (#96)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:24:15 PM EST
    this is setting up the Obamafanz for the inevitable seating of MI and FL at the end of the month. I've heard that when the committee meets that they will decide to release the delegates. Is there really any other choice? Do we want to win in Nov.? They can use the excuse that the DNC broke it's own rules.

    I think without the African-American vote (none / 0) (#101)
    by maritza on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:31:10 PM EST
    I don't think that Hillary is electable either.  

    Republicans win elections all the time (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by rooge04 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:54:06 PM EST
    without the A-A vote.  I'm also sick and tired of the threat that A-A's won't vote for Clinton being held as some kind of OR ELSE respond.

    If Obama is the nom, they would lose women, Conservative Dems and Latinos.  

    Parent

    If he can score enough... (none / 0) (#108)
    by Marco21 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:38:50 PM EST
    loyal Democrats, it should be enough.

    All Democrats, regardless of race and preferred candidate, need to heed her call of coming together in the fall or we're all screwed.

    McCain is unacceptable.

    Parent

    It's difficult to say, but his supporters are (none / 0) (#145)
    by WillBFair on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:37:23 PM EST
    seriously ignorant. Obama is from the Universities where they teach rhetoric big time. That's all he knows. But his worshippers don't know that rhetoric has nothing to do with reality. Obama's rhetoric actually contradicts reality, nonstop. His 'new politics' are old cliches and Clinton retreads. He stole Clinton bipartisanship, then insulted the red States so bad there's no way he could win back the Reagan dems. 'Hope', 'change', 'believe'? Please. How. Pathetic.
    His worshippers can't help it though. Many are probably from the far left, and just as oblivious as the far right. Many are young folk, raised on video games, which seems to be much worse than the tv we had. They respond well to empty rhetoric and slogans and can't understand the simplest rules of cause and effect. So of course they swallow every one of Obama's promises, despite mountains of evidence to the contray. It's frightening.
    http://a-civilife.blogspot.com

    For me (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by cmugirl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:53:38 PM EST
    I "hope" I can get a permanent job soon, and get out the world of contract attorney work, so I can "change" my financial picture, and I "believe" this will only happen if Clinton gets elected and gets the economy on the turn around.

    As far as Obama - he reminds me of Cuba Gooding Jr. - "Show me the money!"

    Parent

    I teach rhetoric at college... (none / 0) (#151)
    by kredwyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:47:09 PM EST
    I also teach my students how to analyze an argument by way of its various parts.

    So while yes, we do talk about things like audience awareness, logical fallacies, and so on, we also talk about the differences between an informed argument and pathos-driven argument.

    Parent

    last request (none / 0) (#191)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:25:05 PM EST
    for you to stop putting the url in the body of your comments. It's in your user profile. This  is the sixth time I've asked you. If you'd like to keep commenting here, please stop it. It's distracting and unwelcome.

    Parent
    Any thoughts? (none / 0) (#180)
    by cmugirl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:12:07 PM EST
    The Supreme Court decision regarding the voter ID law takes effect for Tuesday's primary in Indiana.  What effect do you think it will have and couldn't this go to electability? (Yes, people will have time before the fall election to get ID, but if they haven't to this point, do you think there will be a flood of people getting it now?)

    Interesting stats:

    "As the report noted, a University of Washington study found that 28 percent of African-Americans in the state of Indiana do not have the proper ID to vote. African-Americans make up 9 percent of the voting population in Indiana.

    By comparison, slightly less than 20 percent of Indianans over 70 do not have the necessary ID, according to the same study. Older voters tend to favor Hillary Rodham Clinton, while Obama has strong support among youth. According to a recent Rock the Vote poll, 19 percent of people under 30 do not have a valid photo identification with their current address.  Since young people move frequently they are less likely to have identification cards with their current address."

    LINK

    I know it goes aganst the CW (none / 0) (#182)
    by ChrisO on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:12:53 PM EST
    but if Hillary is nominated I think we will see decent AA turnout for her. The reason? Obama will campaign vigorously for her. He's not a dumb guy, and he's quite ambitious, as we all know. If he throws a snit and the party loses the election because he wouldn't help out, I think it would seriously damage him. He's too opportunistic to let that happen.

    No upset at Kentucky Derby, but ... (none / 0) (#184)
    by Tortmaster on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:15:34 PM EST
    ... 2008 is shaping up as one of the great surprises of all time. Barack Obama is beating the Clintons, the establishment Democrats, McCain, the media (Can anyone say Wright Fatigue Syndrome?) and all the pundits. It really is a great underdog story.

    Yes, for Hillary! (none / 0) (#195)
    by RalphB on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:27:30 PM EST
    SD's need to do their job (none / 0) (#187)
    by pluege on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:21:07 PM EST
    He seems to me to be the riskier candidate in November by miles.

    that's it in a nutshell. Super delegates were invented to PREVENT candidacies such as Obama's that are nice ideas, but have no practical path to winning - its all happy talk about winning Southern and Western states and even if true its not enough to offset the losses in the east and Midwest. Obama's campaign has been 100% built around beating Clinton with no realty-based concept for winning in November. The Super Delegates need to do their job and pick Clinton.

    he is no (none / 0) (#188)
    by isaac on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:21:21 PM EST
    underdog; media darling, online money machine, inspired speaker, and the dem establishment in his pocket.  Hillary is the underdog.  be prepared to be shocked on tuesday

    Comments Now Closed (none / 0) (#209)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:05:25 PM EST


    OK (none / 0) (#210)
    by sas on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:08:00 PM EST
    he realizes he is the weaker candidate....that his margins in Guam, NC, and Indiana are not goin g to be what he thought....he will absolutely get plastered in W Va, and Ky....PR will go to Hillary

    He may win Oregon, SD, and Montana....

    so now he talks unity...

    too little , too late imo

    meanwhile, you have to wonder how the party could be so DUMB to nominate him...just not to offend blacks and the youth vote, but to offend everyone else, especially women  

    The posters on Republican sites I visit sometimes can't believe it.  They think Obama will be so much easier to defeat in the fall.