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Open Thread and Diary Rescue

I'll be at the jail the rest of the afternoon. Here's an open thread. Just step over the hate-stuff that is really piling up out there in the blogosphere. They manufacture and misrepresent what others write when the others don't share their views. Tolerance? Unfortunately, it's sorely lacking. [More...]

Should you spot a site violator here, just respond to the comment with "site violator" and the commenter's name. I'll take care of the rest when I return. Otherwise ignore them and don't hit back with the same tactics. Don't take the bait. Your response likely will go down the rabbit hole with their objectionable comments.

I'm not talking about those who express a different point of view civilly and without chattering or trying to dominate or hijack threads. I'm talking about those who engage in personal attacks, insults, name-calling or purposely spreading misinformation.

A word to our regular commenters as well: Please refrain from personal and character attacks on each other and on the candidates and their families. If you can't express yourself without resorting to personal attacks or race or gender-baiting, you're on the wrong site.

BTD and I take this election seriously. We are trying to inform readers while sharing our individual points of view. Personal attacks, ridicule, name-calling and race-baiting lowers the level of discourse on the site. It's unacceptable regardless of who you support.

We've got new reader diaries up -- check them out and recommend those you like. They may or may not coincide with the views of TalkLeft.

Comments now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    McCain has now defended (5.00 / 9) (#1)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:17:51 PM EST
    Hillary from Obama's pastor friend, as has a higher up in the Catholic church, as has a woman how spoke at Trinity right before the pastor, and yet Obama couldn't muster one kind word for Hillary as he distanced himself from his friend.  Amazing.

    Oh, and neither have any (5.00 / 10) (#2)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:18:27 PM EST
    Democratic Party "elders".  Astonishing.

    [ Parent ]
    I have yet to see anyone in that 2-fer who (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:23:02 PM EST
    have sincerely stepped up for Hillary.  It is a shame that on many levels the democrats have turned out to be as ugly as the republicans.  Much of this campaign reminds me of those run by gwb and his crew.

    [ Parent ]
    I'd never thought I would actually (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:24:47 PM EST
    say this, but I think much of this campaign is worse than gwb and his crew. Sick!

    [ Parent ]
    you are out of touch with reality. (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:31:53 PM EST
    seriously.

    Remember colored terrorist alerts when Kerry was making progress ith his message?

    Remember the Swiftboats? Remember Sinclair Broadcasting wanting to play the "anti Kerry" documentary on all its stations 4 days before the election?

    Nope, uh-uh.

    [ Parent ]

    But how about the 2000 election? (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:04 PM EST
    I think the comparison is very apt.

    [ Parent ]
    ok...maybe (none / 0) (#46)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:52 PM EST
    but the playing of politics over the mess made by the DNC is inevidable. Both camps are trying to influence this, and I agree it's disgraceful.

    [ Parent ]
    relax...I think we all know that this campaign (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:56 PM EST
    has seen things a democrat would never do...and it is worse than a gwb campaign because that is not how we roll...

    [ Parent ]
    I really don't think history backs that up (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:45:59 PM EST
    Dems have done plenty of bad things during campaigns.

    Our biggest differences, as you know, are in our policies.

    [ Parent ]

    I had your thoughts about how the democrats roll (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by mogal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:47:49 PM EST
    ...for 30 years.  But No MORE... NO MORE. The party doesn't want me anymore.

    [ Parent ]
    Watch MSNBC much? (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:50:23 PM EST
    Keith Olbermann?  Randi Rhoades?  I would list blogs but there are too many that have jumped the shark.

    [ Parent ]
    not if I can help it. (none / 0) (#117)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:06 PM EST
    (shudder).

    I have been watching the FLDS stuff on Larry King, and occasionally TDS/Colbert

    [ Parent ]

    Could it be the same group that packaged GWB? (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by mogal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:31:15 PM EST
    Everyone forgets the dumb things Reagan said and did because just like Bush and now Obama the Media followed a script. I will say Reagan read his lines better. Why he could have been an actor.

    [ Parent ]
    What amazes me is that Obama's (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:23:26 PM EST
    campaign says that the message of Father Mike is not the message He wants to impart to everyone, and yet, the message He heard for 20 years coming out of Trinity church was just like yesterday's hate!

    [ Parent ]
    So... (3.00 / 2) (#17)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:19 PM EST
    ...you've attended Trinity for 20 years and can make this judgement based on first hand knowledge?  Or is that just your impression from watching a few videos on the interwebs?

    [ Parent ]
    I have never been to Trinity (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:32:05 PM EST
    but I think you miss the point.  Both Wright and Pfleger are giving sermons that do Violence, both in how they are delivered and in the content of what they are saying.  The way they are screaming is angry, hateful, and it is the way someone sounds before they do bodily harm to someone.  It is truly hateful, violent speech.  I don't care if it is 3 minutes long.  It cannot be defended.

    [ Parent ]
    Double standard (5.00 / 6) (#56)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:38:17 PM EST
    What amazes me are all the "progressives" who are anti religion and who hammer the right wing religious nuts who spew hatred, yet they do not have the courage to criticize it when it comes from "their side".  I know many friars, nuns and priests who work in Liberation Theology.  And in no way do they ever use hatred as their starting point for their message.  

    [ Parent ]
    And you, of course... (1.00 / 3) (#42)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:35:09 PM EST
    ...have never, ever been angry or hateful about anything or anybody in your entire life.  Must be nice to be such a saint.

    [ Parent ]
    Of course I have been (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:43 PM EST
    angry, don't you get the difference between a person being angry and a pastor or priest preaching hate toward a specific person from the pulpit.  Of course you get the difference, you are just being intentionally stupid.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes... (1.00 / 0) (#69)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:43:28 PM EST
    ...because I see things differently I'm being intentionally stupid.  Duuuur, me not think so well.

    Perhaps you can explain to me how this...

    "This pastor friend of Obama's went to Obama's church and said Hillary "cried" in NH becuase she's white and felt entitled to the nomination."

    ...rises to the level of hate? Sounds like one man's opinion to me.  I guess because it's anti-Hillary he's not entitled to that opinion.

    [ Parent ]

    I did not say you were (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:47:45 PM EST
    stupid because you see things differently...you somehow approve of Father Pfleger's comments, good for you.  I was talking about your inability to see the difference between someone being angry and someone using a pulpit to preach hate.

    [ Parent ]
    It was his opinion alright (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Just another person on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:49:37 PM EST
    but his delivery was intended to incite hate. Or strengthen it. Or maybe you don't see that. How many people in that congregation do you think actually thought Hillary shed a tear because she felt her entitlement was slipping away because of a black man? I don't think many till the pastor brought it up. What he was doing was inciting hate.

    [ Parent ]
    Hardly (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by squeaky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:57:11 PM EST
    Do you think that the concept of white entitlement was something so new and shocking to the Trinity congregation that they were being inspired to hate?

    Business as usual for most AA's in america. Nothing more that a yawn, imo. At best, something like 'no kidding'.

    [ Parent ]

    That was a para-phrase... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:50:50 PM EST
    and doesn't begin to convey the hate this guy was peddling. You obviously have a computer and are on the web. Google it and watch yourself or read a transcript. You can probably get the transcript still from ABC news. The come back and do the WORM, Pastor-style, for us.

    [ Parent ]
    the man's an ass. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:35 PM EST
    sorry, but as a white woman, I get really sick of just this sort of bs.

    If you cannot see it, it doesn't mean you are dumb....just perhaps limited in your experiences and ability to empathize.

    [ Parent ]

    When we grow, we become a product of (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:35:13 PM EST
    where we've been. All the good/bad. Here are 2 examples in one church of hate speech being spewed and here is Sen. Obama (and children) listening to all of this. If this is "backward thinking", as he would have you believe, then what reason could he have to stay and listen to sermons at this church, and not once admit to trying to change "their" thinking, have his pastor as his "uncle" figure and spiritual advisor and have a Catholic priest a spiritual advisor to his campaign. I could write for you for pages, but I won't.

    [ Parent ]
    My response above is to MileHi Hawkeye (none / 0) (#44)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:05 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Doesn't take a genius (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:25 PM EST
    to figure out what Trinity is all about.  Unless of course one is slower to pick up a message...say, like almost twenty years too slow?

    [ Parent ]
    You already know the answer... (none / 0) (#25)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:31:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It really is (5.00 / 8) (#15)
    by LoisInCo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:01 PM EST
    disturbing to me, that when one of Obama's intimates DIRECTLY attacks Clinton in such a disgusting manner that he can't even bring himself to say "that man was wrong about Senator Clinton." So easy so simple. Uniting. He deserves nothing from Clinton supporters this election. Nothing.

    [ Parent ]
    Because his entire inner circle feels this way. (5.00 / 6) (#63)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:41:16 PM EST
    There have been too many of these venomous outbursts from people in Obama's inner circle. It is obvious by now that he truly feels this way too. He just regrets the harm the outbursts do to his campaign. He never apologizes to Hillary because that is not where he perceives the damage to be. The White House is going to be a freaking insane asylum if this group gets the keys.

    [ Parent ]
    And he will get nothing. (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:53:36 PM EST
    How many more ways can he find to say he doesn't care about her supporters? Or "Unity?" The RFK nonsense was bad enough, but would saying one nice thing about Clinton break his tongue?

    That's okay, Senator Obama. Sweetie. You just go ahead and win the GE without Clinton's supporters. We'll just be bitterly, periodically down on Election Day. I'm sure the Unity Pony will carry you over the finish line.

    I'd laugh, but it's so delusional that I feel like crying instead.

    [ Parent ]

    Clinton's supporters? (3.00 / 2) (#180)
    by jondee on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:26:37 PM EST
    I thought they were mostly McCain supporters.

    I mean, that's how I would play it: go to Left leaning sites and do my damndest to make Obama sound like a woman-hater who's one step away from sneaking upon Lillie Belle your hair is golden brown in the middle of the night.

    And, lets face it! That Rev P. hates white people and America! And that sinks it for me, by God!

    [ Parent ]

    "Deeply disappointed" (5.00 / 6) (#23)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:31:02 PM EST
    I wish someone would ask Obama the following:

    You say you were "deeply disappointed" by the slanderous remarks that Fr. Pfleger made on Sunday about Hillary Clinton, in which he implied that she was racist and felt entitled by white supremacy.

    Are you also similarly disappointed by the conduct of Rev. Otis Moss, who gave Pfleger a glowing introduction before his sermon and profuse praise afterwards? Are you also deeply disappointed in the conduct of the congregation, who cheered and roared as Pfleger made his "deeply disappointing" remarks?

    If you aren't disappointed, why not?

    If you are, then why did you recently praise Moss as a "wonderful young pastor", and why did you feel comfortable staying in the Trinity community for so long?

    [ Parent ]

    touche (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    That's Good News (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by flashman on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:44:22 PM EST
    Actually, I've always liked McCain. I'll never forget how he defended Obama against the gasbag radio guy at one of his rallies.  I so wish to have the two most honerable candidates at the GE.  Sigh

    [ Parent ]
    Gawd (5.00 / 5) (#107)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:55:17 PM EST
    Why are they so foolish?  Why give McCain a free shot at disaffected Clinton voters by playing this "we don't see why we should apologize for what someone else said" game?  They might be 100% justified in making that point.  It's still stupid.

    Are people in the Obama camp really, truly convinced that they have a winning "new coalition" and don't need any more help?  Say it ain't so.

    [ Parent ]

    It's not "they" it's him. (5.00 / 0) (#115)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:58:25 PM EST
    He's arrogant.  

    [ Parent ]
    Simple Answer, YES n/t (5.00 / 0) (#147)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:11:58 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Astonishing (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:14 PM EST
    truly astonishing. How hard is it for the DNC and Obama to speak out and reject this treatment of Hillary Clinton? It is despicable.

    That is really what has burned me up so much this election that the DNC nor Obama have once stood up firmly and say this is wrong
    and isults like this directed to Sen. Clinton have no room in this democratic process. They never not once call out the media (Keith Olerman and the likes)  or
    Wright about the specific insults he threw to Hillary and Bill Clinton. Not once I heard the Dean, Pelosi, or Obama express explicit outrage at what was being said to Hillary Clinton and many times  directly or indirectly to millions of other people : women, jews, italians, etc etc etc....

    It is unbelievable....

    [ Parent ]

    And Randy Rhodes! (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:08:43 PM EST
    how could I forget the disgraceful comments by Randy Rhodes...
    Did anyone ever from the DNC (Dean, pelosi?  where were you?)  or Obama condemn her for insulting HRC specifically?  She was
    in a fundraiser (for the radio&Obama with his supporters...)

    Silence... Always silence. How could they?  I cannot think of any reason other than because they  agreed.

    It is very painful to have witnessed and lived through this and coming  from Democrats...

    [ Parent ]

    correction (none / 0) (#143)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:09:50 PM EST
    meant :  " Did anyone ever hear ..."  above.

    [ Parent ]
    Wha? (none / 0) (#3)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:21:48 PM EST
    What did he say about her?

    [ Parent ]
    Which he? (none / 0) (#6)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:23:47 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Father Mike Pfleger (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:27:45 PM EST
    He campaigned for Obama in Iowa, is a white priest at a black church in Chicago

    [ Parent ]
    Are you saying that... (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:55 PM EST
    ...his parish is mostly black or that the Catholic Church is a black church.  'Cause if it is the later, I may have to rethink my racial identity.

    [ Parent ]
    his church has mostly (none / 0) (#61)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:40:44 PM EST
    Black parishoners

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks! (none / 0) (#38)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:39 PM EST
    And what did he say?

    [ Parent ]
    Rough and inaccurate summation (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by Fabian on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:29 PM EST
    Hillary was crying because here she was - a White, Entitled Woman married to a former POTUS and all that was being unfairly taken away from her by some young black man who didn't bow down to her cuz she was White and he was Black.

    In other words, Hillary Clinton was stripped of all she has done in her life, personally and politically and reduced to a caricature of a White Woman standing in the way of a Black Man.  

    Must be that National Dialog on Race that Obama was talking about.

    [ Parent ]

    Thank you Fabian. (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:01:11 PM EST
    And...nice to come across you again!

    [ Parent ]
    Accurate summation (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:14:57 PM EST
    and you must read because a certain someone (BTD) is mentioned....

    WSJ

    [ Parent ]

    Well....that was something....reading it was (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:36:11 PM EST
    just as, if not, more offensive.

    [ Parent ]
    the pastor (none / 0) (#10)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:26:55 PM EST
    and are you talking about Wright?

    [ Parent ]
    No. Where have you been? (none / 0) (#11)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:27:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I don't really keep up with this stuff (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:17 PM EST
    I have a job and two little kids and am involved in local sustainable issues. IOW I am very very busy. If you don't want to converse with me about your comment, fine.

    [ Parent ]
    I'll converse with you. (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:36 PM EST
    It was just kind of a big story.  This pastor friend of Obama's went to Obama's church and said Hillary "cried" in NH becuase she's white and felt entitled to the nomination.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh man (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:39:27 PM EST
    that is f-ing bull. Frankly it makes Obama's camp look mean-spirited.

    [ Parent ]
    You think? (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Just another person on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:14 PM EST
    Doesn't help either when Obama says he's "deeply disappointed" while all the while avoiding commenting on how it was a hateful comment against Clinton.

    [ Parent ]
    I wish he was better (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:54:40 PM EST
    he really seems quite milquetoast to me now. He came out of the gate so strong, too.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD posted the video here (none / 0) (#49)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:59 PM EST
    yesterday morning.

    [ Parent ]
    Geraldine Ferraro (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:26:16 PM EST
    has an op ed piece in the Boston Globe

    Nicely put (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by Mike H on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:59 PM EST
    Thanks for the link, it's a good piece.  Geraldine has clearer vision than many of the party leaders right now.

    [ Parent ]
    How about we nominate.... (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:09 PM EST
    Ferraro/Wright...they are more honest than Clinton/Obama, and they cover all the identity politic bases:)

    [ Parent ]
    She's not very good (1.00 / 2) (#39)
    by cannondaddy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:40 PM EST
    at expressing herself without being divisive.

    [ Parent ]
    Well she's certainly not as good as (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by cosbo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:37 PM EST
    Rev. Wright and Father (Ick) Pfidiot.

    [ Parent ]
    But... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Mike H on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:39:15 PM EST
    Is it divisiveness to acknowledge that something has been divisive?  That's the main thing she's doing in her piece, in my opinion.

    Acknowledging the reality of what's gone on and the reality of many voter experiences and opinions... is that divisive in and of itself?  

    [ Parent ]

    Not what she said (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by cannondaddy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:42:39 PM EST
    but how she said it.  I think she was trying to make a valid point.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, that's rich. (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by pie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:12:03 PM EST
    After what you all said about her after her earlier remarks?  She was right then, and she's right now.  If you didn't want racism to be an issue, Obama and his surrogates should have kept their mouths shut.

    Ferraro was not going to be intimidated.  She knows how the game is played.  Some of you will learn the hard way, I'm afraid.


    [ Parent ]

    to be fair (none / 0) (#99)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:00 PM EST
    people are poised to be offended at the moment

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks bjorn...sums everything up very well (none / 0) (#20)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:30:11 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The Cardinal (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:26:18 PM EST
    "STATEMENT OF FRANCIS CARDINAL GEORGE, O.M.I., ARCHBISHOP OF CHICAGO
    Friday, May 30, 2008

    Statement of Cardinal Francis George concerning remarks of
    Fr. Michael Pfleger about Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton during
    an address at Trinity United Church of Christ on Sunday May 25, 2008

    The Catholic Church does not endorse political candidates. Consequently, while a priest must speak to political issues that are also moral, he may not endorse candidates nor engage in partisan campaigning.

    Racial issues are both political and moral and are also highly charged. Words can be differently interpreted, but Fr. Pfleger's remarks about Senator Clinton are both partisan and amount to a personal attack. I regret that deeply.

    To avoid months of turmoil in the church, Fr. Pfleger has promised me that he will not enter into campaigning, will not publicly mention any candidate by name and will abide by the discipline common to all Catholic priests."

    Looks like that promise has already been (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:01 PM EST
    broken...

    [ Parent ]
    Time for Obama to disown the cardinal! (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:30:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And yet... (5.00 / 5) (#33)
    by Mike H on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:09 PM EST
    despite how clearly inappropriate the Father's remarks were, and despite HIS having acknowledged that, AND Obama having acknowledged that, there are those who see this incident as a bad thing for CLINTON, because she "stepped over the line in responding" to inappropriate remarks levelled directly at her.  ("How dare she tell a priest what he can or can't say in his own church" is the kind of thing I've read in the past few days.)

    The inconsistency and flat-out prejudice of some so-called progressives towards Clinton is mind-boggling and deeply disturbing.

    [ Parent ]

    Except it wasn't the priest's own church. (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by oculus on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:59 PM EST
    Not his parish.  Not even a Catholic parish.

    [ Parent ]
    Wha? (none / 0) (#40)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:41 PM EST
    Someone claimed she had stepped over the line???

    [ Parent ]
    If they only cracked..... (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:56 PM EST
    down on pedophiles in their ranks so quickly.

    Then again, pedophiles don't threaten their tax-exempt status.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry (none / 0) (#126)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:01:51 PM EST
    While the Church has been lax on cracking down on the relatively few pedophiles, can we move past making that the only thing about the Catholic Church, please?  Yup - it's done some horrible things, including covering up for pedophile priests, and it's a bit antiquated with respect to women, but it's lasted for over 2000 years for a reason, so there must be some good things about it.  It's also the largest single denomination in the US, and has over 800 million members worldwide, so when the Church (including priests, which for the most part AREN'T pedophiles) is painted with a broad brush, it really comes off as Catholic-hate.

    BTW - there are pedophiles in Protestant denominations, and pedophile rabbis, and pedophile leaders in every other faith and non-faith, so to make this strictly a "Catholic" issue is disengenuous.

    [ Parent ]

    Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:56:54 PM EST
    Good for the Cardinal, but good luck getting this particular priest to toe the line.  It's like Howard Stern promising to take it down a notch.

    [ Parent ]
    Good for the Cardinal (none / 0) (#13)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:28:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I take it this Cardinal.... (none / 0) (#29)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:32:09 PM EST
    wasn't one of the ones calling out Kerry for his abortion stance?

    [ Parent ]
    Good for the Cardinal but (none / 0) (#30)
    by liminal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:32:23 PM EST
    boo on the larger Church, which today strengthened the prohibitions against women priests, ensuring that anyone who ordains a woman as a priest will be excommunicated.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, I bet the archbishop got a call (none / 0) (#197)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:46:25 PM EST
    from either the IRS or the diocesian legal team that mentioned the tax-exempt status being endangered by the political sermons. I know he got an email from me mentioning it the day that awful video became public. I said I was going to write the IRS and ask them to look into the tax-exempt status of Pfleger's church since he was preaching political hate. I also pointed out that what he said contravened everything I had ever heard in the Church which I was raised in. I also demanded that he be removed from his parish. I didn't get an answer, but apparently they got a lot of emails and calls on the same subject. Turmoil, my aunt Fanny, they are shutting up Father Pfleger because if they don't, it's going to cost them. Bigtime. In real money.

    [ Parent ]
    People dancing at anti-hillary comments and hate (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by TalkRight on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:32:33 PM EST
    I had heard about the comments at Trinity Church BUT only today watched them. I was really horrified at the people who were there in the Church. I am more saddened at the people's reaction than on the father (who incidentally is Obama's friend and his committee member) who said those comments.

    Agreed that Obama does not share the views with the pastor or other major speakers.. but did You WATCH the crowd that was dancing when the latest comments were being made against Hilary...  I mean the crowd was literally dancing after hearing the demeaning comments against Hillary...

    WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY GO TO THAT CHURCH?

    I just fail to understand how can Obama be a member of this Trinity Church for this long.


    Exactly. (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:41:31 PM EST
    This was the community that was Obama's spiritual family for nearly 20 years. He felt at home there. He chose to be there.

    I don't believe that the folks in that video are representative of African Americans as a whole. My strong guess is that if you tried to give that sermon in front of the NAACP annual meeting, you'd be scorned and booed off the stage.

    I don't believe for a second that Obama didn't know what was going on. Why, of all the churches around, did he choose that one?

    [ Parent ]

    What kind of people (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by RalphB on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:48:05 PM EST
    Apparently Barack Obama's kind of people.  Some may but I do not agree that Obama doesn't share the views of those hatemongering preachers and the crowd.  We can HOPE he doesn't but that's all we've got, no evidence either way other than some words.  I think it's been shown that Obama's words are cheap.


    [ Parent ]
    The vitriol.... (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:56 PM EST
    is outta hand....I've gone overboard myself with my disdain for all things Democrat and Republican.  We must all remember that we all only speak for ourselves, and that we're all knuckleheads:)

    A peace offering....Unity by Desmond Dekker.

    This is the time that we all should live as one, brothers.
    This is the time that we all should live as one, sisters.
    So come along brothers,
    And come along sisters.
    U.N.I.T.Y.
    This unity.
    So come along brothers and sisters. Whoah-ohhh!

    Aaaaah! Aaaaah!
    We must live as one,
    Coz two wrongs can never make a right.
    Look into the age that we're living in today, brothers.
    Look into the age that we're living in today, sisters.
    So come along brothers,
    And come along sisters.
    U.N.I.T.Y.



    the one sane poster (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:22 PM EST
    at americablog is leaving:

    A.J. Rossmiller . . . Thanks again, and see ya around!

    leaving space for advancment:

    Jacki Schechner thinks a woman would make an exceptional commander in chief. Just not this one:

    Jacki Schechner (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:41:03 PM EST
    is an idiot.  Yes, not this one.  Surely not the one who has the backing of more military figures and Obama and McCain combined, more than any Democrat has had in recent history.  Oh, no, not THAT one.  Sexism is so ingrained in this country even women have a hard time recognizing it.

    [ Parent ]
    How anti-Clinton women cope (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Mike H on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:49:41 PM EST
    I think that this is how anti-Clinton women cope with the misogyny that has driven a lot of the lies and negative spin.

    You see, as women, they couldn't be following along with the misogyny, so if they don't like Clinton it has to be for some other reason.  So they tell themselves -- and others -- that they would absolutely vote for a woman, just not this one.

    Even though this one is eminently qualified and has better credentials than her opponent.  Even though every future woman for office could be treated the same way (in which case they may also say the same thing).

    Of course I don't know for sure, I can't read minds, but it's very suspicious when you hear that over and over again, especially when Clinton is being held to a harsher standard than Obama, to then hear "oh, of course a woman would make a great president, just not her".

    If not her, then exactly who would be better??

    [ Parent ]

    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by LoisInCo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:40 PM EST
    they feel women like THEM are next in line by virtue of not nominating HER.

    [ Parent ]
    Just not her... (none / 0) (#186)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:30:50 PM EST
    you mean like this....

    First time poster a couple of hours ago.  I thought I would get suspended for my response.

    [ Parent ]

    dollyanna? (none / 0) (#190)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:35:56 PM EST
    nuf said?

    [ Parent ]
    no kidding (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:08 PM EST
    after your comment (which I completely agree with) I just have to post some of the more choice tidbits she wrote:

    I'm finding out some female bloggers are taking me to task for claiming I haven't seen evidence of sexism in the current Democratic primary.
    Perhaps my skin's a little thicker than most when it comes to gender-related issues.
    I've always been more of a guys' girl . . .
    But don't mistake anti-Clinton sentiment for sexism. There is a distinction.

    **

    I could go on but . . . why.
    if you think you can take the whole thing, its here:

    Link

    [ Parent ]

    It's interesting that she says that (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Just another person on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:00 PM EST
    But don't mistake anti-Clinton sentiment for sexism. There is a distinction.

    Especially since now people are saying that the GOP's ads with Michelle Obama are sexist. I've seen one ad (maybe there are others?). Yes, it criticizes Michelle. No it's not sexist - at least I didn't see her being criticized for being a woman or a wife or a mother or a nagging first wife. It criticized her alleged anti-patriotic comments. Don't mistake anti-Michelle sentiment for sexism.

    [ Parent ]

    make a note (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:33 PM EST
    any criticism of her is sexist and any criticism of either of them is racist.

    as for me, I liked the "Ive always been a guys girl" thing.
    what does that even mean?  its F'ed up on so many levels.

    [ Parent ]

    oh geez (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Upstart Crow on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:04:04 PM EST
    "I've always been more of a guys' girl . . ."

    These kind of coy brags always make me barf.

    In the 70s, they used to call it "identifying with the oppressor."

    Harsh term, but it does capture something.

    [ Parent ]

    The "guys girls" (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by samanthasmom on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:42:48 PM EST
    I was one of the first women to attend an all-male college, and we took on the "guys" at every turn. We put up with outright harassment from both faculty and other students. We were humiliated, exploited, and told we just couldn't cut it.  But we did, at least those of us who refused to become the "guys' girls". It was pathetic to watch those young women. The girls who "went along to get along" ended up left behind.  Every five years the college invites us back to celebrate how far the "first girls" have gone.  We allow them to exploit us that way because we get to see each other at their expense, but it's depressing when we see that they haven't "gone as far" as we have. It's still a boys club, but the outright sexism has been politely buried. No one ever asks what the young women who didn't make it are doing. It seems they were never even there. So this primary season has opened up a lot of old wounds for 20 women who can't wait for "Homecoming" this year.

    [ Parent ]
    And when you ask "well, which woman (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by tigercourse on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:34 PM EST
    than?" the problems start. Because it's hard to find a woman more qualified, or even nearly as qualified, as Clinton.

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (none / 0) (#144)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:10:12 PM EST
    I haven't read that blog in so long, it's terrible.  But that A.J. guy really knew his stuff.  Will he be blogging anyplace else?

    [ Parent ]
    I think he said something (none / 0) (#152)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:13:21 PM EST
    about 'spending more time with his family'.
    but seriously, I have no idea.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe he is writing (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:15:58 PM EST
    a McClellan-style book about what a nutjob his blogging boss was.

    [ Parent ]
    I just got my ticket for the RBC meeting tomorrow. (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Iphie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:42:48 PM EST
    I'm in NYC and am planning on taking the train to DC (which is going to put me at Penn Station at an ungodly hour tonight, so that I can be there in time to pick up my credentials).

    I'm wondering if anybody else from the NYC area is going, and if so, what are your transportation plans? Let me know, we could possibly travel together.

    White women don't (5.00 / 4) (#90)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:50:12 PM EST
    have a "leg up" for the Presidency.

    Sure they do... (5.00 / 5) (#110)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:56:47 PM EST
    that's why we have had so many white women for president!!

    (In opposite-land)

    [ Parent ]

    Other posters are doing fine (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:00 PM EST
    responding to milehi, without running to Jeralynn.

    agreed (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:29:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Pfleger is just a fool (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:34 PM EST
    First he does this whole channeling of Wright routine.  Second, about entitlement being a "white thing".  Well Obama is half white, is he "half entitled" driven?  

    Pflegger reminds me of the Bay Area white boys who take on Hip Hope culture and imitate the language and still look and sound like goofy suburban white boys.  

    yeah, (5.00 / 0) (#114)
    by isaac on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:57:56 PM EST
    was he half benefiting from 400 years of oppression when he got to go live with grandma in sunny hawaii and got sent to the finest schools?  it sure as hell wasnt the opressed half that threw her under the bus, black folk dont do that

    [ Parent ]
    This is why I love politics (none / 0) (#139)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:07:54 PM EST
    in 2008. The high level of discussion.

    [ Parent ]
    He is a pisser.... (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:55:08 PM EST
    no doubt about it.

    But If the president is gonna have a religous nut on the other end of the bat-phone, I'd rather it be Pfleger or Wright than Pat Robertson or any of the right-leaning loons.  

    As much as I strongly disagree with Pfleger on the the majority of issues (remember those?), I get a kick out of him.  If I got hit on the head and decided to join a racket...I mean church...it would probably be Trinity...if they'd take another whiteboy.

    [ Parent ]

    Hip Hop...oops (none / 0) (#131)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:03:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    His white half is entitled and (none / 0) (#185)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:30:12 PM EST
    his black half has Affirmative Action. He can't lose. Snark. sort of.

    [ Parent ]
    Now who bothers reading the negative dickwads ? (5.00 / 0) (#119)
    by Hubris on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:16 PM EST
    Keep up the good fight.. there are many of us out there. You must follow your conscious and concern for your country first and foremost.

    This is why we will NOT under any circumstance vote for Barack Obama. period.

    ...now why is it you're going to jail?  !!

    How about Bob Dole's nasty words for Scott McClellan?  Ouch!

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:12:19 PM EST
    Bob Dole has a mean streak a mile wide - and he's one of the "good Republicans" by today's standards.  Remember him marching in lockstep with the Swiftboaters in 2004?

    Any decent Republican should be outraged at what this administration has done to their party's legacy, not to mention the country.  Dole chooses to shoot the messenger instead.

    [ Parent ]

    Just up at CNN (5.00 / 0) (#138)
    by mogal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:07:09 PM EST
    As a state senator, Obama once directed a $100,000 grant to a community center affiliated with Pfleger's church.

    Sounds about right!


    Oops. (5.00 / 3) (#142)
    by Iphie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:09:47 PM EST
    Emily's List has endorsed Nikki Tinker over incumbent Democratic Congressman Steve Cohen. Cohen, you may remember, is the congressman who made the Hillary Clinton/Fatal Attraction joke.

    That "oops" (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Iphie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:11:12 PM EST
    is in reference to Cohen's joke, not the endorsement, just to clarify.

    [ Parent ]
    Wow (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:20:36 PM EST
    Sexism resulting in actual consequences?  I never thought I'd see the day.

    I've always been a big fan of Emily's List, kinda like this gal.

    [ Parent ]

    That's a great clip! (none / 0) (#183)
    by Iphie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:28:42 PM EST
    Thanks for that.

    I thought the quote from Rep. Cohen about not getting the endorsement because he has the "wrong plumbing" both highly ironic and really amusing. He really came off sounding bitter. Hm.

    [ Parent ]

    Bitter indeed (5.00 / 3) (#188)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:34:08 PM EST
    Maybe he can go cling to his plumbing.

    [ Parent ]
    Good For Emily's List (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:28:14 PM EST
    Actions sometimes do have consequences.

    [ Parent ]