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Hillary's Excellent Arguments for Fighting for Florida and Michigan

Hillary is not conceding seating Florida and Michigan by any stretch of the imagination. She is fighting as hard as ever. Here is the letter her campaign sent out today.
  • The Rules and Bylaws Committee has the authority to seat all of the delegates from Florida and Michigan with full votes.
  • Actual election results must control the allocation of Michigan's delegates.
  • Although they oppose any 50% solution, seating all the delegates with 1/2 vote is less harmful than seating 50% of the delegates and giving those 50% a full vote.
The campaign asks the committee to rule promptly rather than waiting for the Credentials committee to act.

Comments closed

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  • Display: Sort:
    Thanks Jeralyn....I was waiting for the voice of (5.00 / 8) (#1)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:20:31 PM EST
    reason to chime in....GO HILLARY

    You mean (3.00 / 2) (#126)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:50:59 PM EST
    you were waiting for someone to say what you wanted to hear and what you agreed with.

    "1" me baby, I am waiting.

    [ Parent ]

    it is impossible to rate (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by sancho on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:06:25 PM EST
    an incomprehensible statement. i too am glad to see hillary keeping up the pressure to count the votes. that's the only morally justifiable position to take regarding fl and mi. let the republicans keep the voter suppression tactic. i'll be glad to see obama come around. b/c then this fl. resident can think about voting for him.

    [ Parent ]
    The difference between (none / 0) (#174)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:18:11 PM EST
    Jeralyn and BTD is in interpretation, and one of them is correct...no matter who you are rooting for.

    [ Parent ]
    Here! Here! Cashmere (none / 0) (#160)
    by felizarte on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:07:04 PM EST
    and conversely, the reason COIGUE that you don't seem to like it. Hooray for Team Hillary!  It ain't over till it's over!  I would like this contest to be decided at the convention.  Everything that Hillary has done so far is to preserve that option for her.  Let's wait for Puerto Rico, S. Dakota and Montana.  Then the convention.  In between, I hope to hear more from Trinity UCC.

    [ Parent ]
    Hey. I love Hil!. (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:16:49 PM EST
    I am no hyperpartisan. I just ask people to back up their assertions. Psst doesn't like that....or anything that specifically isn't rah rah Hillary.

    Right now what I want is to win in the fall. Whomever the candidate is.
     

    [ Parent ]

    Done (none / 0) (#188)
    by flashman on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:42 PM EST
    Too bad it means nothing.

    [ Parent ]
    It means that (none / 0) (#203)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:42:47 PM EST
    you did what I asked you to.

    Tool.

    [ Parent ]

    Thank you, Jeralyn (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by stillife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:22:18 PM EST
    I feel so much better now.  I knew Hillary would be hanging in there and I was just waiting for your post.  =)  

    Darn it Stilllife....I know you believe in Hillary (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:24:34 PM EST
    Don't let the opposition clowns get you down!!

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:26:28 PM EST
    I needed that. I feel better now between hearing this from you and Taylor Marsh's interpretation of the conference call.

    Hillary 08!

    yeah, that letter was really encouraging.... (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:45:15 PM EST
    which makes me wonder what Ickes and Flournoy were up to in that call.

    If you watch the "Florida Rules Committee" video, Flournoy is one of those who comes off as far more concerned with throwing a hissy fit than with judging Florida's arguments on its merits.

    ....and given the letter, it looks to me that both Ickes and Flournoy went off the reservation -- that the BS 50% delegation seating thing is their compromise, not what the Clinton campaign wants, but what two Clinton supporters who care more about their Rules Committee perogatives than about Clinton want.

    [ Parent ]

    I still don't get it. (5.00 / 0) (#25)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:54:43 PM EST
    Do they think that they were being clever by trying a little misdirection?

    Either Ickes and Flournoy are playing a deep game, or they need to be fired as Clinton's representatives right now.

    They seem to have made a total hash out of the arguments Clinton is planning on making tomorrow.

    [ Parent ]

    I just downloaded the audio of the conf call (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:58:05 PM EST
    and I hope to make my own conclusions.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you! (none / 0) (#32)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:59:04 PM EST
    Not being a lawyer, I would probably not be able to make heads or tails of it. ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not a lawyer either (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:03:53 PM EST
    But it seems pretty clear.

    They just said their goal is full seating of both delegations with full votes in their opening statements. they said that was the goal and half votes or halving the delegations was not what they were looking for nor did they think it was fair.

    [ Parent ]

    tell Dean (none / 0) (#189)
    by dotcommodity on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:35:22 PM EST
    what you think: sign the petition

    [ Parent ]
    do you have a link... (none / 0) (#42)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:05:35 PM EST
    for the call audio?

    [ Parent ]
    Sure (none / 0) (#46)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:07:12 PM EST
    WArning, it's at No Quarter. However, just download the MP3 on the left of the full call audio. it is perfect.

    LINK

    [ Parent ]

    Warning about No Quarter? (5.00 / 0) (#64)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:18:27 PM EST
    LJ supports HRC.  NO warning needed!  I love that blog!

    [ Parent ]
    If you're in Texas, did you check out this link .. (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Ellie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:41:53 PM EST
    ... in the overnight thread?

    It's about a SuperD allegedly being muscled by TeamO operative.

    I'm not up on the inside baseball dynamics.

    [ Parent ]

    I love it too (none / 0) (#110)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:40:28 PM EST
    But sometimes people here make comments so I just wanted to put it out there.

    [ Parent ]
    they're the big orange (dailykos) for Hillary (none / 0) (#145)
    by DandyTIger on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:01:02 PM EST
    and have jumped the shark in my opinion. They support our candidate, but they say some crazy stuff over there. Kind of fun to have an anti orange orange, but more reasonable like over here is better. Just my humble opinion.

    [ Parent ]
    just a guess.... (none / 0) (#35)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:01:10 PM EST
    but I have the feeling they were supposed to explain what tomorrow was going to be all about, and when people like BTD started asking substantive questions, they gave their "Rulz committee" answers....

    [ Parent ]
    Interesting... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:03:07 PM EST
    they were not prepared to answer detailed questions because they are not used to dealing with smart people (like BTD) in the media. After all, would Andrea Mitchell ask such a question?! ;-)

    That's a good theory.

    [ Parent ]

    I sat in on the call (none / 0) (#199)
    by RonK Seattle on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:41:00 PM EST
    I did not hear contradictions or capitulations.

    I did hear Ickes, in particular, emphasize that many interested persons including some RBC members are laboring under misimpressions of the Rules, of the facts, or both. (Hence, full day outcomes may break containment re the pigeonholes some active minds had pre-assigned.)

    Ickes and Flournoy were explicit that they dissent from multiple points expressed in the Michigan party appeal and proposal, and they made best efforts to clarify some of these points. The Utrecht letter further clarifies the Clinton campaign position.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks Jeralyn (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:29:20 PM EST
    for your views. I agree they are fighting as hard as they can

    They say today over and over that The Rules and gives the  Committee full  authority to seat all of the delegates from Florida and Michigan with full votes.


    Mr. 48 (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Athena on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:39:24 PM EST
    The last Democratic Presidential nominee of 48 states was Adlai Stevenson in 1956.  How fitting.

    [ Parent ]
    good one (n/t) (none / 0) (#147)
    by DandyTIger on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:02:11 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Rules: Obama May Be Forced to Forfeit FL Delegates (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by dazedreamer52 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:32:09 PM EST
    The folks at iNewsTube.com are pointing out that Obama may have to give up all his FL delegates because of his violation of rule Rule 20 - Section C 1. b

    http://inewstube.com/politics/may_31_dnc_rules_and_bylaws_meeting_preview_obama_may_be_forced_to_for feit_fl_delegates.html



    Aha, BTD has company in his argument (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Cream City on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:41:43 PM EST
    and just in case your too-long link means your comment will be deleted (see comments policy re url's), I'm going to repeat it here to keep it up:

    Rules: Obama May Be Forced to Forfeit FL Delegates )
    by dazedreamer52
    The folks at iNewsTube.com are pointing out that Obama may have to give up all his FL delegates because of his violation of rule Rule 20 - Section C 1. b.  

    Thanks for your good find -- and perhaps others may wish to forward this on to media and other sites.  If so, they can add that Obama also violated the pledge by holding a press conference in Florida, also forbidden, the very day after he signed on saying that he would not do so . . . while Clinton scrupulously adhered to every condition of the pledge.


    [ Parent ]

    If it happens, so be it, but ... (3.00 / 0) (#34)
    by cymro on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:59:58 PM EST
    ... this argument -- even if it is technically correct -- is petty, legalistic, divisive, guaranteed to annoy Obama supporters, and to make Clinton look as if she is clutching at straws to "steal" the nomination. And anything that provides further fuel for such anti-Clinton rhetoric just undermines her strategy for securing the nomination at this stage.

    If we don't give the Obama supporters anything to use to attack Clinton, they are forced to confront the mounting evidence from the polls that their candidate is dropping in the polls every week, and cannot defeat McCain. That is what will convince the superdelegates to nominate Hillary, not petty arguments about who ran ads when in Florida.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh...there go those pesky facts getting in the (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:11:35 PM EST
    way of obama's free pass.  So let me get this straight...ALL rules apply to Hillary, but obama can do whatever he damn well pleases with no consequences?  I don't think so...oh the faux outrage...

    [ Parent ]
    I think you misunderstand me (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by cymro on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:35:27 PM EST
    I am as outraged as you at the behavior of the Obama campaign. I just don't believe that legalistic arguments by ardent Clinton supporters are going to secure Hillary the nomination. Such arguments will have minimal traction precisely because they are being advanced by ardent supporters, and they provide fuel for Obama supporters (especially those in the media) to attack the Clinton campaign. Every news cycle that is given over to discussing "complaints" by Clinton or her supporters allows them to fill air time with faux outrage against Clinton, and at the same time turn a blind eye to Obama's weaknesses.

    What will secure her the nomination is ever-increasing public focus on Obama himself, his falling popularity, his difficulties in uniting Democrats, etc. Clinton can still win the nomination, but only by being not Obama. In other words, the nomination is Obama's to lose, and I believe he will lose it, if Hillary just stays out of the news for a while.  

    Three months is a very long time in politics, and Obama will self-destruct under the spotlight of being the presumptive nominee. By the Convention, superdelegates will be drafting her to rescue them from their huge mistake. First the talk will be about needing Clinton in the VP spot to retain her constituency, which will have to be swallowed by the hard-core Obama fans who are so anti-Clinton. After that bridge is crossed, it will become apparent from polls that Dems still cannot win unless Clinton is in the top spot. Voila!

    That's the basis of my comments in this thread.

    [ Parent ]

    welcome to talkleft (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:40:34 PM EST
    ....which is first and foremost a legal blog.

    and not exactly the most appropriate place to object to "legaiistic" arguments that will "annoy" Obama supporters.

    [ Parent ]

    I know that, and ... (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by cymro on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:49:51 PM EST
    ... I have always appreciated your posts, both here and previously at TNH. I just think that the Clinton campaign is now moving into a phase in which securing the nomination requires political strategy, not legal arguments.

    The legal arguments may yet be accepted when we get to the convention, but only because by that time there will be the political will to accept them, because Obama is so obviously going to lose the GE.

    But today we are not quite at that point, so this is not the right time to be pressing the legal arguments. Now is the time for Clinton to be seen to be rising above any divisiveness and helping to unite the party. There is plenty of time left for Obama to prove that he is not up to the job.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree 100%. (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:41:53 PM EST
    My eyes are crossing with the back-and-forth between J and BTD. I'm sure both are excellent lawyers and have valid legal points.

    But ya know, none of this really does it for me and I'm an ardent Clinton supporter.

    She has to be seen as emotionally and principally right. She is arguing for full seating. She is arguing for all the votes to count. Since Party Rules are not the same as laws, that's all many of us non-lawyers need to hear. And clearly, even lawyers disagree about the "legal" basis for her arguments.

    I think HRC should do well in the last round of primaries, then suspend her campaign and let Obama take the spotlight for a while. If he can survive the media onslaught, good for him. If not, well, we'll see what happens in August.

    IMHO as usual.

    [ Parent ]

    with all due respect.... (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:03:50 PM EST
    the campaign has to make the 'legalistic' arguments when the opportunities present themselves -- if for no other reason than to get them on the record at the appropriate time.

    and discussing the relative merits of the arguments is part of that process -- and I hope BTD writes to the appropriate people with his very sound and timely arguments.

    [ Parent ]

    I know. (5.00 / 0) (#187)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:37 PM EST
    I think we are agreeing but arguing about two different things: what will win with the voters (political), and what will win with the committee (legal).

    Obviously the legal approach will, and should, be taken (by the candidates and by this blog), but we shouldn't discount the political approach either.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama leads Hillary 51-38 in the latest (none / 0) (#122)
    by Seth90212 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:48:01 PM EST
    CA Field poll. He leads her among all her former core demographics, including Latinos.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't think Clinton-Obama polls (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:54:19 PM EST
    mean anything anymore because the media long ago declared him the winner.  I don't think the poll can be objective in that environment.

    [ Parent ]
    Then stop citing polls which supposedly (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Seth90212 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:56:08 PM EST
    have her beating him in swing states. You can't have it both ways.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually, you are wrong (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by cymro on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:17:37 PM EST
    If Obama has been declared the presumptive nominee by the media, then any polls in which Clinton still defeats him are even more relevant, because she is still beating him despite the fact that "everyone knows the race is over".

    I guess some voters just didn't buy the Obama campaign spin that's being proclaimed a zillion times a day by the media. Isn't that such a significant data point that it must be cited in any discussion of electability?

    I know you might prefer to slide it under the rug and pretend that the Obama campaign spin is the whole truth, but facts have an uncomfortable habit of undermining such fantasies.

    [ Parent ]

    Polls against McCain are another story. (none / 0) (#146)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:01:43 PM EST
    And those are even MORE impressive, when you consider that Hillary is supposed to be out of the race.

    [ Parent ]
    Same principle (1.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Seth90212 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:06:42 PM EST
    you are trying to have it both ways. If polls against Obama are considered worthless because she is deemed dead politically, same applies to Hillary/McCain polls.

    [ Parent ]
    You just defeated your own argument (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:54 PM EST
    All the more impressive she beats McCain when Da Media have declared her out of the race.

    [ Parent ]
    WHEN did California become a swing state? (none / 0) (#205)
    by Valhalla on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:45:58 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Also ... (none / 0) (#148)
    by cymro on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:02:14 PM EST
    The Clinton vs. Obama polls are always restricted to Democrats, whereas polls of Clinton/Obama vs. McCain measure the opinion of the electorate as a whole. And in those polls, Clinton beats Obama because she captures independents and Republican women, while Obama loses Democrats that supported Clinton.

    For the proof, just check out electoral-vote.com

    Clinton 327     McCain 194     Ties 17
    Obama 266     McCain 248     Ties 24

    [ Parent ]

    Bingo (none / 0) (#209)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:54 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Golly gee. (none / 0) (#125)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:50:54 PM EST
    Didn't California already vote in the primary?

    Do you care how he's doing against McCain?

    Not well.

    [ Parent ]

    You wrote that he can't win (none / 0) (#128)
    by Seth90212 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:53:09 PM EST
    yet he's clobbering her in the state with the biggest EV prize. He also beats her consistently in national polls. One poll has him up 26 points nationally.

    I'm just trying to break through some of the delusion.

    [ Parent ]

    Me delusional? (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:02:48 PM EST
    Who do you think he would be running against in the GE?

    Hint: It wouldn't be Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    LMFAO The patent absurdity of that concern ... (none / 0) (#186)
    by Ellie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:31:38 PM EST
    What's the deal if, as they claim, they 'won' already?

    If HRC wanted to keep campaigning and her supporters continue supporting her and they don't need us, why are they being stompy about it?

    [ Parent ]

    head firmly stuck in sand (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by DandyTIger on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:08:52 PM EST
    is what I'm reading from you and other Obama supporters. This is mostly now about November. The polls of Clinton vs. McCain compared to Obama vs. McCain clearly show Clinton can win and Obama can't. That along with Obama and the DNC working to disenfranchise FL and MI, kick out the base of the party, and generally act like idiots has some of us a little worried. It's sad that Obama supporters aren't worried.

    Go ahead, site polls that reflect the media message that the dem primary is over and Obama has won. Surprise, surprise, he polls are reflecting that message. Fine. Dandy. Chalk one up for the media choosing our candidate again, like it chose dubya, like it chose the Iraq war, etc. Big congratulations on that one. You might want to think about what the media is going to decide for us next. Maybe they'll pick Obama, maybe they won't. They decide. You or the polls, or apparently the voters have nothing to do with it. So sit and watch what they decide to do. Have fun like we have.

    [ Parent ]

    Head in the sand? (1.00 / 2) (#176)
    by Seth90212 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:19:14 PM EST
    Check my history. Everything I've said has come to fruition. Wasn't the notion that MI would be counted as is the article of faith here? I said it wouldn't and I was attacked. Well, what happened? Same with FL. Same with the idea that he/she with the most delegates wins. Same with the pop vote argument carrying little weight, etc.

    The polls you are citing are thoroughly meaningless at this point. The SD's know exactly how meaningless they are and that is why they have flocked to Obama. Being the subject of a kitchen sink strategy will tend to drive down one's poll numbers. That said, there are other polls which argue the opposite of your take, but they are never cited here.

    [ Parent ]

    Why is there any need? Obama claims to have won (none / 0) (#168)
    by Ellie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:11:49 PM EST
    He's been declaring Mission Re-Accomplished for ages and his fawning (though increasingly skeptical, critical) media and yet still he's not the official nominee.

    Perhaps you should do a little concern triage and move our 'delusional' support of Sen Clinton down the list of your priorities and check out the horror show of how Obama will perform in the general election.

    I'm pleasantly bonkers over my choice for President.

    [ Parent ]

    no dice... (none / 0) (#60)
    by vrusimov on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:16:41 PM EST
    won't happen because Florida is already stripped 100% of it's delegates beforehand...

    b. A presidential candidate who campaigns in a state where the state party is in
    violation of the timing provisions of these rules, or where a primary or caucus is
    set by a state's government on a date that violates the timing provisions of these
    rules, may not receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state.
    Candidates may, however, campaign in such a state after the primary or caucus
    that violates these rules. "Campaigning" for purposes of this section includes,
    but is not limited to, purchasing print, internet, or electronic advertising that
    reaches a significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state; hiring
    campaign workers; opening an office; making public appearances; holding news
    conferences; coordinating volunteer activities; sending mail, other than
    fundraising requests that are also sent to potential donors in other states; using
    paid or volunteer phoners or automated calls to contact voters; sending emails or
    establishing a website specific to that state; holding events to which Democratic
    voters are invited; attending events sponsored by state or local Democratic
    organizations; or paying for campaign materials to be used in such a state. The
    Rules and Bylaws Committee will determine whether candidate activities are
    covered by this section.

    [ Parent ]

    But, as BTD argued, once a reinstatement (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by Cream City on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:25:21 PM EST
    of any sort -- half, full, in between -- is made, then the argument becomes operative to take away his delegates for his violation of the pledge.

    I.e., it's a sequential argument, and you're not seeing that.

    [ Parent ]

    Problem. A number of the FLA newspapers have (none / 0) (#193)
    by Christy1947 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:53 PM EST
    tagged Hillary for campaigning there as well. If you want O to lose his, you are also calling for HRC to lose hers.

    And, by the way, how do you all feel about the two states agreeing to a compromise that HRC does not agree to. S she's on her own at the Convention and the states are not with her. What happens then?

    [ Parent ]

    I am fairly sure I read that too in some (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:02:56 PM EST
    rules posted on another thread on TL...something to the effect that obama broke the rules by advertising in FLA.

    [ Parent ]
    double standard (1.00 / 0) (#103)
    by ibextati on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:36:48 PM EST
    You guys argue that FL and MI delegates should be seated even though they broke the rules. And you want to see Obama's FL delegates taken away claiming he violated party rules by running ads in FL.  I see a lot of hypocrisy.

    [ Parent ]
    First off... (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:47:32 PM EST
    the argument here is that Florida did not break the rules, and qualified for a waiver under rule 20 C 7.  

    secondly, the argument for Michigan is that the rules were not consistently enforced, and selective enforcement of the rules is bad for party unity.

    As for Obama breaking the rules... he broke a separate and distinct rule that concerned the actions of candidates and their campaigns.  And he should be penalized for doing so....

    [ Parent ]

    FL didn't break rules? (1.00 / 2) (#137)
    by ibextati on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:56:19 PM EST
    You should go and ask Harold Ickes and 12 other clinton supporters in RBC why they stripped FL and MI delegates?

    [ Parent ]
    We are tired of explaining this. (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:54:48 PM EST
    Please go look it up regarding FL/MI, then, if you wish, come back w/new (really new) talking points. Thank you.

    [ Parent ]
    More faux news to justify faux outrage ... (none / 0) (#13)
    by cymro on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:41:42 PM EST
    ... against Clinton, I suspect.

    [ Parent ]
    Here's a link to the same article (none / 0) (#26)
    by digdugboy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:55:35 PM EST
    that won't bust the margin.

    http://tinyurl.com/6kp4yc

    [ Parent ]

    Please delete this link (none / 0) (#115)
    by chancellor on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:42:28 PM EST
    It is skewing the entire comments section. Thanks.

    [ Parent ]
    Jeralyn - I have no money right now (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:38:43 PM EST
    but I'm donating to you anyway. This amazing post just cannot go unrewarded.

    You are a treasure. :-)

    RBC has broad authority but ... (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by RonK Seattle on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:53:52 PM EST
    ... this doees not include authority to reassign delegates from one candidate preference to another.

    MI Uncommitted delegates must go Uncommitted (if they go at all). RBC can't convert them from Uncommitted to Obama, any more than they could convert a Biden delegate to Kucinich. (The Credentials Committee would have broader - and more dangerous - authority.)

    This is a defect in the proposed Michigan (69-59) plan ... and it's an unnecessary reach, as the (barred) MI delegation as currently constituted is heavily Obama-centric.

    If it came down to equities, 71-57 would be a fair settlement, as Clinton held that 11% margin over Obama per the MI exit polls ... but that again would be a matter for later stages of the process.

    Thanks Jeralyn! (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by ruffian on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:54:00 PM EST
    My favorite part of the letter (so far as I have read yet) is where they point out that they tried to organize the revotes to show the good faith attempt to comply with the rules. That shows what good strategic thinking went into pushing for those revotes even if it was a long shot.

    unfortunately... (none / 0) (#52)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:12:25 PM EST
    trying to organize revotes doesn't comply with the provisions allow waivers, which require party officials to make the effort to prevent legislation that would violate the rules from being passed.

    In Michigan, that didn't happen.  (Florida is a different story).

    IMHO, the rules committee should vote to seat Florida in full (except for any official who qualifies as an SD who is found to have acted to get the change passed), then strip Obama of his delegates for his rules violation concerning campaigning in Florida.

    Then refuse to seat Michigan, because under the Rules there is no rationale for doing so -- but pass a resolution recommending that the Credentials Committee do so because of the good faith effort of Michigan democrats to come up with a solution in recent months.

    [ Parent ]

    Yep (none / 0) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:17:20 PM EST
    People are not thinking in ths ithread.

    I suggest everyone actually read 20C 7 to see how ludicrous this position is.

    [ Parent ]

    The upside is that Dem leaders have to explain it (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by Ellie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:29:30 PM EST
    ... to media and voters, and not Sen. Clinton.

    This is a good thing, as it will spare everyone another appalling media moment of offering to cook for In The Tank media and get her on the job of explaining why, if he has indeed, as bloggers like Atrios say, "you know, won" the Dems don't outright declare it and the Superdeez go on the record now and make it all official.

    (And let's hope this puts an end to TeamO's serial Mission Accomplished Almost media events.)

    [ Parent ]

    Ed: should read 'appalling Donna Brazile media' (5.00 / 0) (#93)
    by Ellie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:33:42 PM EST
    ... moment.

    I still don't know how to get my browser's auto-select turned off. It selects entire words or phrases at whim and clips them when I post.

    OR it doesn't like Donna Brazille.

    [ Parent ]

    Holding a primary (none / 0) (#87)
    by ruffian on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:31:09 PM EST
    or caucus between Super Tuesday and June 15(?) would have kept FL in compliance with the primary scheduling rules, since the DNC did not recognize the one on Jan, 29 as legal.  Wasn't that why we were pushing for that re-vote? Trying to get such a vote going shows an attempt to comply with the rules. That's all I was referring to. Is that not correct?

    [ Parent ]
    no.... (none / 0) (#129)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:53:22 PM EST
    the problem is that an unsuccessful effort after the fact isn't enough -- although had the effort suceeded, the delegates would have been seated.

    The rule is an "AND" rule... and it includes a requirement that Florida officials do whatever they could to prevent their state from passing a law that broke the rule.

    Now, most of us here think that Florida did comply with the requirements that would have qualified them for a waiver to begin with -- so Florida isn't an issue.  

    Michigan is the issue....they didn't try and stop the rules from being broken -- they activity facilitated it.  

    [ Parent ]

    Thank you (none / 0) (#185)
    by ruffian on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:20 PM EST
    That explains it better, for me anyway.

    Where I have been getting hung up is the word 'waiver', which I have been interpreting wrongly as a pardon for breaking the rules. I could not understand how you can say FL should get a waiver and also say they did not break the rules. I think I get it now.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually, (none / 0) (#195)
    by Emma on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:38:42 PM EST
    some MI Dems in the House did oppose it.  And it is a Republican controlled Legislature.

    And, since all the FL Dems voted for the FL legislation, what did THEY do to try and stop their legislation?  I understand the paper trail legislation.  But the fact is, that's an argument that FL Dems couldn't have voted against it.  Well, they could have.  They didn't because they wanted to accomplish something important to them.

    If Fl's efforts are "enough" opposition -- even though all the Dems voted for it -- why are MI Dem's efforts "enough" opposition when Dems in the House actually voted against it?

    Drawing a line between "good" FL and "bad" MI is false, IMO.  I think people do it b/c they don't want to deal with the Obama-created mess of him taking his name off the ballot.

    [ Parent ]

    florida and michigan (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by snucky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:55:36 PM EST
    hopefully hillary's supporters will be at that meeting in full force. DAMAND OUT VOTES!

    BTW... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:59:22 PM EST
    I'm with BTD with regard to the ex poste facto rationale that Michigan tried to do something after the ballots were cast to find a way to be in compliance... 21 C 7 requires that Democratic party officials take the necessary steps to prevent legislation that was not in compliance with the rules from being passed.  In michigan, that did not happen, and ex poste facto efforts that bear no fruit cannot be considered a substitute in this case.  (its a good argument for Florida though...)

    Problem for clinton (none / 0) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:16:26 PM EST
    they conceded the efforts ex ante were NOT incomplaince with 20C 7.

    This argument is atrocious.

    [ Parent ]

    not really a problem for Clinton (none / 0) (#73)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:22:55 PM EST
    ...because as I mentioned elsewhere, I suspect that Ickes and Flournoy were not there to answer the kind of smart, informed, substantive questions that you and others asked as representatives of the Clinton campaign.

    but I agree the ex ante (thanks for the correct legal term) efforts are irrelevant to 21 C 7 as such.  I just think that Florida's efforts enhance the already legitimate argument they have for a waiver... i still don't see a rationale under the rules to do more than reinstate half of Michigan's delegates, tho.

    [ Parent ]

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:31:18 PM EST
    floutnroy and Ickes conceded that Florida broke the rules and did not qualify for 20c7.

    Heck, even in this letter, Clinton is not arguing that Florida did what it could ante, it is alll about the revotes.

    A simple reading of 20c7 tells you that that is not enough.

    the argument loses already.

    [ Parent ]

    question (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by caDem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:05:26 PM EST
    this is my first time posting. So please go easy on me. I have a basic question. Before the primary started, all candidates agreed to a set of rules. They even signed pledges to abide by the spirit of the rules. All candidates knew that Fl and MI will not be counted and even publicly said so. So how is it fair that the rules are being changed now ? I hear the "every vote must count" argument. That is a fair question, but this is not a general election. It is a party election so the typical "disenfranchisement" argument is really not applicable. There are states that have caucuses, don't allow independents to vote, etc which are all forms of disenfranchisement. But that has not become an issue, because everyone knows the rules and has agreed to play by them. I did not see the candidates complain in 2007 about FL & MI, when all the same arguments applied. I see stoking up FL & MI as a campaign tactic, being all righteous about it seems hypocritical at best.

    Once you start (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by befuddled on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:12:34 PM EST
    saying someone doesn't count, AND people accept that some people don't count, soon there is no equality. That's the basis of our republic, as I understand it.

    [ Parent ]
    In case this is your first time reading (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:35:16 PM EST
    Here are the, you know, actual rules.  Just curious, how did you find this site?  Most people lurk for a long time and have taken the time to read the discussions....

    Here's BTD on the actual rules.

    Using words like campaign tactic, righteous and hypocritical kind of give you away, but you might want to check them out anyway.

    [ Parent ]

    this question... (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:35:17 PM EST
    has already been addressed, in mind-boggling detail, on numerous occasions.

    Short answer -- everything you think you know is wrong.

    long answer...search this site ... especially posts by BTD with the words "Florida" and Michigan" or "FL" and "MI" in the title.

    [ Parent ]

    So you're willing (none / 0) (#47)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:07:43 PM EST
    to concede Florida/Michigan to McCain so the ROOLZ will be adhered to.

    Okay, fine with me.

    [ Parent ]

    that does not necessarily follow (none / 0) (#55)
    by caDem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:15:03 PM EST
    Just like when a candidate wins a primary does not follow that they will will the GE in that state. For e.g. Obama lost CA, but there is no  way he will lose the state in GE. If anything, he is leading Clinton among Democrats in the latest polls.  I agree that FL & MI should be resolved and the delegation should be seated, but doing it in a way that makes them decisive will not be fair. Making it an issue and stoking emotions around it and making it a rallying cry does not advance the cause of Democrats wining GE. That too, when its clear that the rules will not be changed in a way to alter the outcome.

    [ Parent ]
    if FL is resolved (none / 0) (#141)
    by ccpup on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:58:38 PM EST
    and given any delegates, Obama would then be stripped of his for ... well, breaking the rules he agreed to by giving a Press Conference and Campaigning.

    The DNC even gently rebuked him for it, so it's not like they didn't know it happened.

    Rules are rules, you know.  He broke them, there should be consequences, right?

    [ Parent ]

    Spelling it ROOLZ doesn't mean rules don't apply (none / 0) (#65)
    by Curious on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:18:42 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    LOL! (none / 0) (#143)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:59:56 PM EST
    And ROOLZ aren't everything.  Voter disenfranchisement is more important than the ROOLZ to you, right?

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (none / 0) (#75)
    by caDem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:25:37 PM EST
    Democracies count votes. But remember this is not a GE. Its a party  election. The party can very well decide whatever means that is generally fair. Just like it can say that you can vote only if you are registered Democrat. I would grant the argument if rules were changed after the votes were cast. That would be undemocratic. But everyone knew that and no one complained for months till after the votes were cast. In my view adhering to the rules that were set before is more democratic.  

    [ Parent ]
    The rules (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by tree on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:46:40 PM EST
    always allowed for FL and MI to appeal the earlier ruling and many in FL and MI were told it was ery likely that in the end their votes would in fact count. Senator Bill Nelson was one who was repeating that often before the vote was taken. Even Obama, in his impromptu September 2007 press conference in Tampa that violated the DNC ban on press conferences there, implied that if he were the presumptive nominee he would ensure the seating of the Florida delegation. Its obvious in hindsight that the punishment was not intended to hurt the voters but rather the state Democratic parties by limiting the monetary gain that those parties would have seen by the candidates campaigning in their states. No one anticipated how close the race would be and that the nominee wouldn't have been decided by now, and thus most assumed that there would be no objection prior to the convention to granting the states' appeals to let there delegations be seated. Poor decision making by the DNC, caused by faulty assumptions is what has led us here.

      The problem with many of the "rules-based" arguments against seating FL and MI is that the rules are only cited selectively in order to oppose the seating without looking at all the rules and what the rules really say, versus what those with an anti-vote axe to grind claim they say. BTD has covered this in detail from the very beginning. I might suggest that you look up some of the older threads on this. Many of us here have  hashed this issues so many times before that its gets rather tiring and disheartening to start back at point one with someone like yourself who doesn't have the full background on this.  

    [ Parent ]

    Actually, the Dem party can't control who votes (none / 0) (#80)
    by Newt on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:27:41 PM EST
    in the primary.  State law controls whether or not primaries are open, right?

    [ Parent ]
    Not sure (none / 0) (#86)
    by caDem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:31:00 PM EST
    I am not sure if the state of party controls the state process. In TX, Democrats had a primary/caucus whereas Republicans only had a primary.

    [ Parent ]
    Kung Fu Part Tu: DNC and Obie must own MI-FL (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by Ellie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:05:43 PM EST
    I posted in BTD's conference call thread that I thought the Roolz "concession" was Kung=Fu to make the DNC directly explain their case to the voters and Dems without the political cover of arguing with the Clinton campaign.

    This also puts the onus on Obama individually and on his Team to own their actions. They've had every opportunity and option presented to them and IMO imperiously waved -- as opposed to waived :-) -- each one away when it's not up to one individual to decide whether voters' rights are acceptable.

    Nor is it Obama's right to demand that voters that didn't vote for him be shuffled into his corner for his own strategic political choice.

    IANAL but his actions in this will have blowback in the general election, when states that have little chance of going Dem did count for him being ahead in this race.

    Sen Clinton is in it to win it and this shows why she's on the ascendency with the voters. There's brains in that here Hill! GO HILLARY!

    I just listened to the call (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:43:12 PM EST
    and it didn't sound like they were conceeding anything to me. Nor did I thik anyone talked out of school or not in line with previous messages and calls.

    Seat full delegations, uncommitted goes uncommitted.

    this is the post I was going to publish (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:18:32 PM EST

    On the Clinton Letter.

    Cutting through the verbiage of the Clinton Letter, what is left is this - Rule 20(C)(7) allows the RBC to forgive rulebreaking states (the Clinton campaign concedes that Florida and Michigan broke the DNC rules) when a state party take positive provable steps and acted in good faith to bring the state into compliance with the DNC's selection rules. the Clinton campaign argues that the attempts to organize rev-votes constitutes the necessary steps to qualify for the RBC's reinstating the Florida and Michigan delegation. Does this argument hold water? Let's review the relevant provisions. Rule 20(C)(7) states:

    In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to
    bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to
    comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced.

    Where have we heard this argument before? Oh I know, by Florida, at the August 25, 2007 RBC when the RBC decided to INCREASE the penalty against Florida. Now it is argued that Florida's after the fact attempts will be sufficient. Good luck with that one.

    Guess what else the rule says:

    The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state
    law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

    (Emphasis supplied.) First, the Florida Democratic Party did NOT try to achieve legislative changes to achieve a revote. Of course such efforts would have been futile but they did not attempt. Second, the rule still requires that Florida attempted to prevent the legislation that put Florida out of compliance. that is the argument that was already rejected. To wit, for the Clinton  argument to even work, they needed to reject the August 25, 2007 determination by the RBC. The Clinton campaign does not do that here. Third, the Florida Democratic Party did not even present a submission trying to provide "clear and convincing evidence" that they did what the Clinton letter says they did. and if you want to be honest about it, a lot of Florida Congressional leader RESISTED revotes. this argument simply does not fly.

    As for Michigan, they can not even come close on the requirement that they tried to prevent the legislative change. Heck, they Democratic legislature and Democratic Governor approved the law that put Michigan out of compliance. While it is true that it later produced proposed legislation that would have provided for a revote, that legislation was killed by Obama supporters. And again, the Michigan Democratic Party has not submitted "clear and convincing evidence" on these points.

    In my mind, the Clinton camp has already lost the 100% seating argument before the RBC. And for no good reason. they did not have to concede any violation by Florida and could have argued that Michigan was entitled to a "waiver" as granted to New Hampshire and South Carolina. I do not understand the choices made by the Clinton camp on these issues.



    What should they be arguing in order (none / 0) (#197)
    by ruffian on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:39:38 PM EST
    to 'reject the August 25, 2007 determination by the RBC'.  Is there an argument to be made that was not already rejected in the Aug 25 determination, or would better arguers of the same points make a difference?

    [ Parent ]
    One thing that's interesting about this site (3.66 / 3) (#138)
    by ricky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:57:32 PM EST
    is the lack of insight by most of the posters. You can definitely argue that Obama's campaign has played some politics, but there have been many more political games played by the Clinton campaign. These are rarely acknowledged here. Instead, what happens here is that folks find a way of getting riled up and righteous to support whatever argument Clinton provides. If things were different, and Clinton didn't want the Mi/Fl delegations fully seated for political reasons, I have no doubt that equally passionate posts on this site would defend that position.

    One thing I have noticed on this site (5.00 / 4) (#150)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:02:35 PM EST
    is that the trolls are of very low quality.


    [ Parent ]
    Rational dissent (none / 0) (#152)
    by ricky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:03:15 PM EST
    is not trolling

    [ Parent ]
    That's not what you are doing. (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:09:05 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    there is a lack of insight (none / 0) (#165)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:10:47 PM EST
    in your trolling.

    Try to do better.

    [ Parent ]

    Okay, ricky, list for me, please, the (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:06:10 PM EST
    political games played by Clinton?!

    [ Parent ]
    I have still never heard this addressed: (3.25 / 4) (#6)
    by bocajeff on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:32:02 PM EST
    My wife turned to me and said "They said they weren't going to count Florida so I didn't vote. Now they might count it and I was talked out of voting. Isn't that wrong?"

    "Well," I told her, "at least you didn't vote for Buchanan this time."

    My wife, as well as many others, didn't vote because they were told their votes weren't going to count. Aren't they being disenfanchised also?

    I'm told my vote won't count (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Cream City on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:36:06 PM EST
    all the time, when I'm voting against the odds.  I'm told my vote won't count all the time, by people voting for the opponent and "canceling out" my vote.  

    Many Dems in red states are told all the time that their vote won't count.

    I understand that your state had other issues on the ballot.  Why did your wife not care enough about those to go to the polls?  Please clarify.  Thanks.

    [ Parent ]

    <