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Do Dems Want To Win In November? The Unity Ticket Is the Answer

Via Todd Beeton:

WXYZ-Action News/EPIC-MRA poll out of Michigan (600 LVs, May 19-22, MOE +/- 4%) finds Obama/Clinton beating McCain/Romney by 7 points.

Obama/Clinton 51
McCain/Romney 44

. . . Obama's numbers in a head to head match-up against McCain[:]

McCain 44
Obama 40

Hey Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy, you want to win in November? Or do you want to purge the Clinton Wing of the Democratic Party? I am prepared to step in if Pelosi and Kennedy do not agree with me on this . . .

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< Prepared To Step In And Do What? | How Puerto Rico Awards Its Delegates >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I hope we see lots more of these (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by andgarden on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:59:36 AM EST
    and soon.

    Come on SUSA, give us another round!

    And Do Clinton/.Obama This Time, Too (5.00 / 3) (#247)
    by BDB on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:51:09 PM EST
    If Clinton does this much good as VP, imagine her at the top of the ticket.

    Although I do question in the long run whether a VP candidate can carry the top of the ticket across the finish line.  Forget whether after the treatment she's received Clinton should do it, I'm unconvinced she can.  In the end, people vote for the top of the ticket and what this poll really tells you is that Obama at the top of the ticket is weak and needs help.  Given that historically Democrats' positive number decline over the course of a General Election and their negatives increase, this does not seem to be a good place to be starting out.

    And, BTD, to answer your question, Clinton cannot possibly be the VP because she raised Obama's assassination* in South Dakota and that makes her unacceptable.  I know because I heard the media tell me so and since we've decided to go with the media narrative rather than fight it, there will be no unity ticket (unless it's Clinton/Obama).  Or put another way, as lambert says, controlling the party is the must have of the election, winning in November is the nice to have.  So, no, they don't care about winning in November so long as the "right" people control the party in December.

    * You might have thought you heard Clinton say Robert Kennedy and not Barak Obama.  But as I think is clear at some point the media decided Barak Obama = Robert Kennedy.  And who can blame them?  What with his winning the California primary, his struggling to overcome the party establishment choice's lead in pledged delegates, his current holding of RFK's old seat, his support by RFK's kids, and his endless campaigning in Appalachia, the similarities are eerie.

    [ Parent ]

    Absolutely! (none / 0) (#183)
    by Faust on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:23:59 PM EST
    Very curious to see more of these. I think Clinton if the better choice but I also think the Edwards data is interesting. Hell I'd like to see some Clinton/Obama polls also.

    [ Parent ]
    The election is 5 months away (none / 0) (#306)
    by manish on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:10:50 PM EST
    These polls are meaningless.  The election is 5 months away.  Five months before Iowa, it was looking like Hillary would run away with it and it didn't happen.  We still have two conventions, a lot of attack ads from PACs and 527s to go.

    Hillary ran a bad campaign.  I've detailed some of the issues in this comment to a prior post, however, let me expand on them.

    Hillary had the most advantages coming into this election.  She had the Clinton machine behind her.  She had 100 super delegates lined up before a single vote was cast.  She had the Democratic nostalgia of the Clinton years, she had the big donors behind her, the name recognition, she had it all.

    And she blew it.  She blew it by running a bad campaign.  There is no reason in the world that Obama should have won some of the caucuses with over 70% of the vote.  The only reason is that his campaign out worked the Clinton campaign to get out the vote.  Clinton had no problem getting her supporters out to caucus in Nevada or Iowa.

    So after she blew it, we're supposed to let her and her campaign onto the general election ticket?  A general election where she won't nearly have the advantages that she had in the Democratic primary.

    [ Parent ]

    Unity, Baby (none / 0) (#332)
    by BDB on Thu May 29, 2008 at 08:15:15 PM EST
    Because what's important is destroying Hillary not electing Obama president.  Good to see the Obama folks have their eyes on the prize.

    [ Parent ]
    How about we nominate (5.00 / 13) (#2)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:00:20 AM EST
    the person who doesn't need any help to win?

    Cause the VP thing for HRC is nagahapin.

    But don't you see that (5.00 / 5) (#31)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:23:49 AM EST
    if somehow HRC were to wrest the nomination away from Obama she would need help to win too?  

    Don't you see that his supporters would feel cheated and she would need his help to unify the Dem party to win?

    [ Parent ]

    No, I don't "see" (5.00 / 11) (#38)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:26:15 AM EST
    what's not true.

    Have you heard the exit polls? Most of Obama's supporters would feel comfortable voting for Hillary.

    Have you noticed that the same is not true for Hillary's supporters?

    And how in the world is she "wresting" the nomination from Obama? He HASN'T WON IT YET!

    Ferchrissakes!

    [ Parent ]

    Most Obama supporters (5.00 / 6) (#57)
    by mattt on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:33:46 AM EST
    would vote for Hillary in the general if she clearly beat him in a straight-up contest.  If her victory were perceived to be awarded via an insider deal (ie, superdelegates overturning primary results) there would be big, big problems with her support.  And the superdels realize this.

    [ Parent ]
    superdelegates overturning primary results (5.00 / 8) (#128)
    by mm on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:02:12 PM EST
    You mean like when Senator Clinton won WV by an overwhelming majority only to see both Democratic Senators and SD's announce their support for Obama?

    The funny thing is, it seems like SD's are and have been "overturning primary results".

    [ Parent ]

    Do you really not see (5.00 / 3) (#175)
    by ruffian on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:19:56 PM EST
    that this characterization is pure Obama spin? :

    If her victory were perceived to be awarded via an insider deal (ie, superdelegates overturning primary results)

    1. Superdelegates voting their candidate of choice is not an insider deal.
    2. Superdelegates are delegates.  They don't overturn anything. They vote, and their votes are counted with all the other delegates. The only thing extraordinary about them is that their seat at the convention is "automatic" -  they are not selected and allocated according to  the primary/caucus results.


    [ Parent ]
    First, Obama isn't saying (5.00 / 2) (#221)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:38:50 PM EST
    it.  So don't blame him.  

    Secondly, do you really think that if HRC could somehow convince the remaing Supers to come over to her side it wouldn't be seen by many Obama supporters as, well, unfair to say the least.

    You are correct in your description of the SuperDs role, but that won't change the perception.  And that is why she would also need "help" if, at this point, she were to win the nomination.

    I don't know why this is so hard to see.  

    [ Parent ]

    Huh? (5.00 / 4) (#240)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:45:30 PM EST
    Suppose the rest of the Supers -- who have not declared one way or the other yet -- declared for Clinton.  Maybe they thought she was the best candidate and the best chance to win in November. That would be viewed as "unfair" by Obama supporters? Why? Because they held their decisison to thte end and they didn't follow the rest of the crowd? Do they not get to make their own determination of who to support? Must they now support Obama because he has a lead?

    That's one of the more absurd things anyone has said today.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes it would be viewed as unfair (none / 0) (#262)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:02:30 PM EST
    The only absurdity is not to see that.

    [ Parent ]
    Perception... (none / 0) (#274)
    by Mike H on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:17:35 PM EST
    Just because it will be perceived that way doesn't make it the wrong thing to do.

    I don't believe we should blindly get on the Obama bus just because Obama supporters will feel ripped off... when we don't believe the Obama bus has enough gas to make it where we need to go in the first place.

    [ Parent ]

    Agreed. You should do what you feel (none / 0) (#308)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:12:30 PM EST
    is right and the SuperDs should do what they think is right.  

    But just as you won't blindly hop on the Obama bus, many Obama supporters won't be jumping on the Hillary bus.  They see supporting her as the wrong thing to do.  

    By the way, I'll jump on the Hillary bus or the Obama bus or the bus of whomever is the Dem nominee.  

    [ Parent ]

    What if PR votes for Hillary this weekend? (none / 0) (#281)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:27:10 PM EST
    Is that unfair too? Must we all follow the current leader? We aren't allowed to think independently?

    Sorry, but I didn't check my logical thinking skills at the door.

    [ Parent ]

    You're making my point for me (none / 0) (#309)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:16:21 PM EST
    No you don't have to follow the current leader.  But Obama supporters don't have to follow if she is the leader either.  That's the whole point of the Unity Ticket -- bringing both sides together.  I say it is needed if Clinton is the nominee and it is needed if Obama is the nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    Any more unfair (none / 0) (#328)
    by MammaMia on Thu May 29, 2008 at 05:43:53 PM EST
    than Clinton supporters feel the rush to Obama by superdelegates so far has been?  Why do Obama supporters' feelings matter more than Clinton supporters'?  Shouldn't the facts and the ability to win the White House be what matters to the super-delegates?

    [ Parent ]
    he certainly has said it (5.00 / 1) (#287)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:32:09 PM EST
    he was quoted a long tiome ago as saying he could get all of Clinton's supporters but he didn't think Clinton could get his.  He has also said he thought it would be "problematic" if the super delegates overturn the votes of the "pledged" delegates.

    I don't understand how Obama and his supporters constantly get away with claiming "Obama" didn't say something if it wasn't a direct quote on video out of his mouth.

    Obama's surrogates, supporters and the media say these thing FOR him all the time so that he doesn't have to say them directly. But he still benefits from having them said.  And then his cmapaign runs around claiming he is innocent.  He never said it.  Don't blame him yada, yada, yada.  Just how stupid do you think people are?

    [ Parent ]

    That's why I said (5.00 / 2) (#224)
    by mattt on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:39:50 PM EST
    "perceived to be an insider deal."

    Superdels have the right to vote for whoever they want.  But, they are, for the most part, "insiders."  And if they vote contrary to the pledged delegate count a lot of people are going to question the legitimacy.  Clinton winning or tying in the popular vote would help with the perception of legitimacy, but I don't think that's going to happen (at least not if widely accepted methods of counting the pv are applied).

    [ Parent ]

    Superdelegates (4.62 / 8) (#59)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:35:32 AM EST
    are supposed to overturn primary results.

    That's what they're there for.

    How is Obama going to win the nomination without superdelegates overturning primary results? Without some kind of "insider deal" like, oh, I don't know, the DNC pretending FL and MI don't exist?!

    [cricket cricket cricket]

    [ Parent ]

    It's very amusing (5.00 / 5) (#250)
    by Steve M on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:51:49 PM EST
    that AFSCME members were "campaigning for Hillary as surrogates," in your words, yet Obama supposedly didn't campaign in the state at all even though UNITE-HERE did the exact same thing for him.

    Anyway, I see your post includes all the standard lies about how Hillary violated the pledge by leaving her name on the ballot, blah blah blah, which are not going to fool anyone here.  There are many pro-Obama echo chambers in the blogosphere where you can repeat those claims to your heart's content and everyone will consider them gospel.

    [ Parent ]

    Supposed? (4.33 / 3) (#113)
    by Demi Moaned on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:53:50 AM EST
    I don't think so.

    They have discretion to consider factors that are not reflected in the primary vote totals and may exercise their judgement independently.

    But there is certainly no mandate to overturn the primary results-- else why have the primaries?

    [ Parent ]

    Um... (5.00 / 5) (#122)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:59:00 AM EST
    the primary results have not produced a winner.

    So yes, they will be overturning primary results no matter whom they choose. They don't have to use that as their only consideration, but that's what they'll be doing.

    As for the "will of the people" argument, that's fine if you want to use it, but just remember that Hillary wins if all the SD's from the states she's won vote for her.

    [ Parent ]

    Ehh... (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by mattt on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:11:50 PM EST
    but just remember that Hillary wins if all the SD's from the states she's won vote for her....
    ...and she adds them with all the superdels who previously endorsed Hillary, even though their states went for Obama.  A position consistent with the Lanny Davis school of fair compromise: "These are mine, and some of yours are mine."

    [ Parent ]
    Supers were created to expressly (5.00 / 2) (#260)
    by americanincanada on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:59:25 PM EST
    stop another McGovern like defeat being foisted on the party. They are supposed to stop the party from nominating, in the primary, an unelectable candidate like Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    first (none / 0) (#298)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:44:53 PM EST
    NO candidate made a pledge to remove their name from the ballot in MI, so please stop peddling that line of bull.  If you believe that candidate were required to remove their names from the ballot in MI, why were all their names on the ballot in FL?  The same no campaign pledge applied to both of these states.  There wasn't an additional pledge for MI.

    Next, Obama actually broke the no campaign in FL rule the day after he signed the pledge by interviewing with journalists which was against the rules.  He also aired TV ads in FL against the rules.  So technically, he should receive NO delegates from FL.

    Obama campaigned in MI by having his surrogates run ads in MI telling his supporters to vote for Uncommitted.  So he tecnically deserves no delegates from MI because he broke the rules.

    Obama had a chance to have what you describe as full/fair primaries in both FL and MI with revotes.  But, he intentionally blocked all efforts to revote.

    lastly, the voters in both FL and MI were not deprived of seeing and hearing Obama.  Those voters have access to cable, newspapers, the internet, the many televised debates that Obama likes to claim there were so many of that no more were needed.  The voters in those states were not living in a vacuum.

    [ Parent ]

    It is true to them. I'm trying (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:39:42 AM EST
    to get you to see things from another's perspective, not agree, just see.  Did those people listening to Rev. Pfleger seem like they'd be racing to the polls to vote for HRC if she someohow pulled off the nomination?  

    As to the exit polls,  Maybe Obama supporters feel more comfortable saying they'd support Hillary because they're being magnanimous since he seems to be closer to the nomination than her.

    [ Parent ]

    No matter who wins (5.00 / 5) (#88)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:45:56 AM EST
    the nominee will have a lot of work to do to unite the party.  

    But this leads to another reason that I support Clinton: I think she'll do the work to unite the party. She's talked about it for literally months, and she's a Democrat through and through.  She has a long history with the AA community, and she will continue to reach ot to them.

    I do not see Sen. Obama reaching out in any comparable way, not do I expect him to. One of his spokesmen was quoted here a few days ago talking about how they would need Bill Clinton to unite the party, how he was uniquely qualified to do so.  Sorry, uniting the party is the responsibility of the nominee.  I don't think Sen. Obama can do it.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, yes, yes to your first sentence. (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:06:18 PM EST
    As to your last, we shall see.  Are you open to his efforts if he tries?

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, and here how he can start (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:29:40 PM EST
    1. Adopt a real universal health care policy.

    2. Quit trashing the only two term Democratic presidency of my lifetime.

    3. Quit calling women "Sweetie."

    4. Cut out the nonsense about the great crisis in Social Security.

    5. Lead a real conversation about race relations in this country, don't just give one speech and be done with it.


    [ Parent ]
    I left off (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:36:06 PM EST
    6. Get more experience so that I can have confidence he can actually do the job. We all know that's not going to happen in the next six months, but this is also not a reaching out task.

    [ Parent ]
    The longer she stays in the (none / 0) (#108)
    by Salo on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:52:23 AM EST
    more likely she will be the VP.

    There's only a few months to refocus on the general now.

    [ Parent ]

    As to AA's, don't count on it. (none / 0) (#315)
    by Christy1947 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:51:35 PM EST
    I am aware that HRC is counting on unions and similar organizations beating AAs back into line and not letting them sulk, but don't hold dinner for that to happen. She has done too many things in this campaign for whatever the prior relationship was to be relied on for anything other than having been a mistake of judgment in her character. Whther it is 'hardworking Americans, white Americans' or his being 'not a Muslim, as far as I know,"  or the outright denial of any racism at all in the campaign, she cannot count on the AA community, by reason of her own badly judged acts. When she lists the groups that support her she correctly does not list AAs. Unless there is a procedure perceived to be honest and not manipulative or racist by which she prevails, and last minute switching by SDs is not it, she will be running at the top of a ticket which will be watched from home by AAs who may not be rude but will not support her financially or otherwise. Because she has already cut them loose.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm afraid I don't get (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:47:55 AM EST
    what you're trying to say about the TUCC crowd. No, I don't imagine they'll vote for HRC no matter what. Oh no, that's 20,000 people out of 17 million!

    I am not interested in trying to guess what people are thinking as they exit the voting booth. The polls clearly show that the number of Clinton supporters who won't support Obama is much higher than the number of Obama supporters who won't support Clinton.

    Head-to-head state polling supports this conclusion. Heck, the primaries THEMSELVES support this conclusion. If Obama "is" the nominee, why is he getting defeated by 35 and 41 points in swing state primaries at this late date?

    Now, are Obama supporters going to hide their heads in the sand about the electoral facts? Or are they going to realize that the writing is on the wall?

    As BTD says, do we want to win in November? Because Obama as nominee is not the way to go.

    [ Parent ]

    What's that say about Hillary's Supporters? (none / 0) (#171)
    by ibextati on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:18:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    That we're smart and refuse to (5.00 / 4) (#185)
    by samanthasmom on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:24:57 PM EST
    support a candidate with inferior credentials.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly. The guy doesn't have the resume. (5.00 / 3) (#194)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:28:47 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    They recognize (5.00 / 3) (#193)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:28:19 PM EST
    Obama is not qualified to be President.  No work experience, no resume, no character.  We are in the middle of two wars, have issues with the economy, foreign policy issues, a govt that doesn't represent the people.  Dems best idea?  a nobody with no experienc and a dash of hope.  It's pathetic.

    [ Parent ]
    The polling suggests (5.00 / 8) (#50)
    by ChiTownDenny on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:30:46 AM EST
    she would be the strongest Dem candidate to take on McCain.  How is acknowledging this cheating Obama?  Do Dems want the presidency?

    [ Parent ]
    This Dem wants the presidency (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:02:36 PM EST
    I have said nothing negative about HRC.  In fact, I have said that I will support her is she is the nominee, even though I voted for Obama.

    I don't think that she will be, but I've been wrong before.

    I didn't say "cheated" and "wrest away the nomination" is very different from cheated.  Wresting away the nomination would be within the rules and is exactly what she is trying to do.
    Her own supporters (Rendell, etc.) say it unlikely that she will get the nomintation.  I didn't think it would be such a controversial statement.

    [ Parent ]

    "Wrest away" (5.00 / 5) (#142)
    by Nadai on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:08:03 PM EST
    implies that the nomination is already in his possession and she's taking it away from him.  That is not the case.  No matter how unlikely you find a Clinton victory, the fact remains that no one has yet won.  The nomination, therefore, cannot be wrested away by either of them.  It can only be won.

    [ Parent ]
    Fine, I said upthread (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:17:46 PM EST
    (or downthread - I've kinda lost my place) that I'll remove the wresting phrase if it so upsetting.

    The entire thread is based on the Unity Ticket idea of Obama/Clinton.  And I was commenting the strength of that ticket.

    However, I still say that many of his supporters DO feel the nomination is in his possession.  They may be incorrect, but their feeling is real nonetheless.  If he somehow doesn't win they may feel as if Obama was treated unfairly, disrespected. At that point she will need his support to win.

    [ Parent ]

    Disrespected? (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:39:23 PM EST
    I'm not in either camp. And right now it's a toss up as to who comes out with the nomination.

    But I have to say that if the Obama supporters really believe that the nomination is his when it's obvious to any outside observer that the vote spreads are huge on both sides, then they've only been paying attention to their own voices.

    [ Parent ]

    Have you looked at the Orange (none / 0) (#266)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:08:41 PM EST
    site lately?  Yes, they are only paying attention to their own voices.  Disrepected is an understatement for how some would feel.  

    [ Parent ]
    Haven't been to the Orange (none / 0) (#279)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:22:38 PM EST
    in months.

    And frankly, both disrespect and disappointment are of their own making.

    [ Parent ]

    the reason that many of his supporters (5.00 / 1) (#304)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:59:03 PM EST
    feel that way is because Obama, his campaign, his surrogates, the media and the DNC all sit silently by and do not come out FORCEFULLY and explain that the super delegates have NO DUTY whatsoever to merely rubberstamp the candidate with a majority of "pledged" delegates.  In fact, many of them keep parroting the same phrase that it would be "problematic".  That was a phrase that Obama himself coined and everyone else started using.  It was the Obama campaign that began the threats of the black vote staying home if he didn't get the nomination.  It was Michelle Obama who said she would have to "think about" whether she would support Clinton or not if Clinton were the nominee.

    the party has been being threatened about the black vote and the youth vote staging a revolt for far longer now than the much more recent phenominon of the Clinton backers voting for McCain or staying home.  

    In fact the media still likes to pretend that it wouldn't really happen with Clinton supportes but they warn it would likely happen with blacks and youth.

    You may have a point that the Obama supporters may feel it was taken away from him.  But, I can tell you that the Clinton supporters already feel she was treated unfairly by the DNC, the media and the Obama campaign.  All of whom perpetuated LIES about her and up until the Rev Wright flap, gave Obama a free pass on any critical reporting.

    [ Parent ]

    So basically we're in trouble either way. (none / 0) (#276)
    by Mike H on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:21:30 PM EST
    Obama supporters would feel like it would be unfair treatment for him to not receive the nomination at this point, even though he's likely to fail against McCain.

    Clinton supporters ALREADY feel like the primary season has been unfair against her, and she is the candidate more likely to succeed against McCain.

    The question remains... do we want to win the presidency, or to we want to feel self-righteous about sticking by a candidate who will lose?

    (Oh, we're lefties, so I guess that answers my question -- we'd rather feel self-righteous and lose!)

    [ Parent ]

    Not all polling says that. (none / 0) (#286)
    by Seth90212 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:31:04 PM EST
    Some even have her 26 points behind Obama nationally. This is the stronger candidate? Nice cherry picking of the polls.

    [ Parent ]
    you're the one cherry picking (none / 0) (#310)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:17:06 PM EST
    the ONE poll showing Obama with a 26 point lead over Clinton is over 10 days old and now is outdated

    [ Parent ]
    Wrest away? (5.00 / 7) (#64)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:38:32 AM EST
    uhhhh neither was strong enough to get themselves over the finish line on their own.  The superdeez are to exercise independent judgment.  If you want to go with Obama talking pt 527, that's your right.  If you want to listen to the media lie and spread Obama's talking pt 527, that's your right.  Don't expect people that have read and understand the rules to get on that bus.  Heck, I stay clear of the bus stops.

    [ Parent ]
    But over the last month (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:11:29 PM EST
    the Supers have been endorsing Obama. Does he need more to win?  Yes?  But she needs many more than him.  Could it happen, of course.  But right now he seems headed for the nomination.  That isn't media lies, that's the way it looks right now.  

    And I'm not spreading anyone's talking points but my own.  

    [ Parent ]

    and the reason (none / 0) (#317)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:56:25 PM EST
    that SDs have been coming out for him is because they have been frightened into believeing the hype about the threatened backlash that has been being pushed by the Obama campaign and the media.

    The media has been happily parroting Obama's talking points for him all along.  And, at the same time the media has taken anything that has come out of Hillary's or Bill's mouth and searched high and low fot the worst possible interpretation they could put on it.

    When Bill's fairytale comment was twisted intentionally by Michelle Obama into something she could call racist Donna Brazile should have been out there slapping Michelle down for doing that.  Instead Donna joined in the chorus with Michelle.

    When people called Mr Shaheen a racist for talking about Obama's drug use, those people should have been put in their place.  there is NOTHING racist about talking about Obama's drug use.  Nobody had any problems in '92 when they talked about Bill's drug use.  They didn't have any problem in 2000 talking about GW's drug and alcohol problems.  Is is just black candidates we aren't allowed to talk about drugs with?

    [ Parent ]

    Shaheen didn't have any problems (none / 0) (#329)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 06:25:44 PM EST
    supporting Gore in his 2000 campaign despite his previous drug use.  So I didn't understand his fear of Republicans hitting Obama on his admitted teenage drug use.  So why did Shaheen think Obama's teenage drug use was enough to disqualify him, but not Gore's.  Nor did I understand why he brought up the question of "selling drugs"  when that isn't the case at all.

    Now I don't think it was racism, it was just one campaign hitting another to gain points.

    And I think the Hillary supporters have done their fair share of looking for the worst possible spin on every word coming out of Obama's mouth.  

    [ Parent ]

    the point being (none / 0) (#331)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 07:58:29 PM EST
    it wasn't a racist statement by Shaheen.  But the Obama campaign called it racist.  That was the point when the Obama campaign started calling every comment racist in order to drive Clinton's numbers down with the black voters.  And everyone in the media and the DNC went right along with him on it.

    [ Parent ]
    Baloney (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:44:12 AM EST
    What do you mean "wrest the nomination"?

    He doesn't have the nomination. No one can have the nomination when the pledged delegates are so closely split.

    You are completely missing the content of Obama's support. I suggest you look closely at the detailed results of the primaries and caucuses to get a thorough picture of the situation.

    [ Parent ]

    He will "more likely than not " be the (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:57:34 AM EST
    nominee.   Heading towards "beyond all reasonable doubt."

    But is "wrest the nomination" away upsets you then I take that phrase away.

    My point is that the Dem party needs both Clinton supporters and Obama supporters to win.  I don't see why that is a controversial statement.  

    Are you implying that she would have no problem winning without his supporter?  Or are you implying that he really doesn't have much support because his support came from caucus wins?  I disagree with both of those, by the way.

    [ Parent ]

    "they"don't think they need both (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by zfran on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:07:51 PM EST
    sets of supporters to win.

    [ Parent ]
    Have to disagree (5.00 / 1) (#283)
    by Mike H on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:29:48 PM EST
    I think Obama cannot win against McCain without the majority of Clinton's supporters, but I believe Clinton could win against McCain without the majority of Obama's supporters.

    Obama, should he be the nominee, will almost certainly pick up zero disaffected Repubs and a serious minority of independents.  His inexperience and clumsiness will hurt him in the end.

    Clinton, on the other hand, has a much stronger record of building coalitions -surprisingly- across party lines, and the fact that she is a more moderate and less liberal Dem will appeal to independents more.  Her more hawkish stance on security issues will also negate some of McCain's only real advantage in the race.

    In regards to caucuses, I have severe reservations about their ability to truly reflect the will of the people in the same way a regular straight up primary vote does.  Caucuses have weird and confusing rules, typically draw substantially less people because they take so much longer, and just don't seem representative of their counties.  I think it's long past time to retire all caucuses and their elaborate confusing rules.

    In particular, the Nevada caucuses really pointed out to me how skewed they could be.  Remember, the union of hotel workers (that endorsed Obama) was allowed to caucus in their workplace, whereas the teacher's union (that endorsed Clinton) was not allowed the similar convenience.

    When we place hurdles to one group of caucusers that we don't to another group, we are absolutely not getting a fair reading of the will of the people.  Many state caucuses have similar imbalances in their setup.

    [ Parent ]

    It's not his nomination (4.66 / 12) (#39)
    by Salo on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:26:37 AM EST
    I also thionk he's run a deeply deceptive campaign.

    he's not a post racial candidate.  He's milked his strange church and racial identity for all it's worth.  His central narrative is a crock.  eventually he'll pay dearly for the deception.

    [ Parent ]

    by not winning the November election. (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Salo on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:27:37 AM EST
    Of course he'll get a fat book deal anyway, so what does he care about the eventual outcome?

    [ Parent ]
    Not too much more before he won't be able (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:43:11 AM EST
    to give his books away.


    [ Parent ]
    Deception? (4.40 / 5) (#49)
    by contrarian1964 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:30:14 AM EST
    Every politican's narrative is "deceptive"; the truth-as-message never wins elections.    If you think your favorite politican is different, you've been duped.  HRC and BHO are both skilled politicians, good liberals, and fine candidates.  One ran a better primary race this year.  That's all.  

    Enough with the demonology already.

    [ Parent ]

    Barrack claims to be different (5.00 / 6) (#56)
    by Chimster on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:33:26 AM EST
    He's not the old washington politician. He's the new hope for change. Now, pass me some of that Goofy Grape<sup>TM</sup>.

    [ Parent ]
    If there's a book to be written about this (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:44:48 AM EST
    primary, the underhanded, dishonest bussing, and bullying will be the central theme.


    [ Parent ]
    I'd buy ten copies of that (none / 0) (#215)
    by blogtopus on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:36:29 PM EST
    to send out to all my friends and family.

    Then it would be OUR turn to ask 'Have you read the book?'

    [ Parent ]

    NOOOO! (3.66 / 3) (#65)
    by Salo on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:38:32 AM EST
    This was a complete mischaracterization abou t something very fundamental about Obama.  he's a former radical aggitator with a penchant for loopy race based churches.

    You can't be be post racial with that sort of background.

    [ Parent ]

    milking his church (none / 0) (#278)
    by Ovah on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:22:05 PM EST

    ...so you're saying his church has helped him? or being African American is an added extra bonus?

    [ Parent ]

    The problem is that they do need each other. (5.00 / 1) (#241)
    by sarissa on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:46:09 PM EST
    Right now, lots of hard working Hillary supporters are feeling alienated since it appears that their horse is going to come in second (or so say the announcers anyway - it remains practically neck and neck).

    If media had annointed Hillary rather than Obama, then his supporters would need to be placated if she wanted a surer shot at the White House.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh and by the way: (5.00 / 9) (#3)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:00:58 AM EST
    I am prepared to step in if Pelosi and Kennedy do not agree with me on this . . .

    LOL!

    Do Dems want to win in November? (5.00 / 13) (#4)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:00:59 AM EST
    Clearly not.  Rather than have Hillary carry Obama piggyback over the finish line, let's nominate her.  Obama can run as VP.

    I don't like to (5.00 / 9) (#37)
    by davnee on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:25:59 AM EST
    fall back on stereotypes, and I hate to sound at all like Maureen Dowd, but the gender bending in this race has reached tragicomic proportions.  The weak little woman, who apparently never did anything more strenuous  than host tea parties, now is fully expected to have the Herculean strength to carry a grown man on her back all the way to the most powerful house in the universe.  Of course, when she gets there she'll just be asked to cut his meat for him, or maybe do it bird-style and chew it for him too, and then exit quietly so that the men can talk.  She'll be expected of course to have left a crib sheet behind, preferably with "remember there are only 50 states" written in bold at the top.  Carville was completely right when he said if HRC would loan Obama one of hers they'd both have two.

    [ Parent ]
    No one is talking (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Lesser Dane on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:55:55 AM EST
    about Hillary carrying Obama but her supporters - as far as I know.

    [ Parent ]
    Um... (none / 0) (#145)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:09:10 PM EST
    BTD has repeatedly advanced the idea of Hillary as VP for the sake of Unity and winning in November.

    You don't think he's a Hillary supporter, do you?

    [ Parent ]

    There's a difference (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Lesser Dane on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:15:46 PM EST
    between "Unity ticket" and "Clinton carrying Obama". I was reacting to the latter metaphor.

    [ Parent ]
    Difference? (5.00 / 3) (#188)
    by davnee on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:26:33 PM EST
    Since we know Clinton would not be the preferred choice of Obama for a host of reasons, then the only reason to select her is to put him over the top electorally.  So she'd be carrying him.  If the situations were reversed, he might be needed to carry her over the finish line electorally.  

    For Clinton supporters, and I'd suspect most non-Obama partisans, there is an additional irony in a O-C ticket, which is that the lesser candidate, if one went by experience, performance, competence, issues, and now electability, is being put at the top.  Add to that the ratification of classic gender roles and you get a rich stew of disappointment and dissatisfaction with such a ticket.

    [ Parent ]

    This is yet another set of metaphors (none / 0) (#242)
    by Lesser Dane on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:46:30 PM EST
    the original post was about Hillary to

    "carry a grown man on her back all the way to the most powerful house in the universe"

    - which is quite different from "put him over the top" or "carry her over the finish line". It simply doesn't acknoledge that Obama can walk, or run, on his own.

    [ Parent ]

    He can't. (none / 0) (#245)
    by davnee on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:50:49 PM EST
    Speaking for me only of course.

    [ Parent ]
    Given that the argument being made (5.00 / 2) (#200)
    by tigercourse on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:30:00 PM EST
    is that Obama will lose unless Clinton comes in and saves him, I think "carry" is the right term.

    [ Parent ]
    Is He An Obama Supporter? (none / 0) (#264)
    by daring grace on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    Really, I don't know who he supports.

    I'm new here and haven't noticed an explicit reference from him on this.

    I recall back in 2004 (I think) he was a Clark supporter and I guess I assumed he was for Clinton because General Clark is on her team.

    But now that you mention it. I have no idea who BTD is for.

    [ Parent ]

    Were these polls taken (none / 0) (#6)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:05:22 AM EST
    prior to the latest pastor disaster?

    [ Parent ]
    Ted has bigger concerns now. And I (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by tigercourse on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:04:31 AM EST
    maintain that Clinton is not a saint, so we shouldn't expect her to step in and pull our bacon out of the fire.

    The added benefit of the Unity Ticket (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:13:36 AM EST
    is that once both candidates are on the same side you'll see much less of the Rev. Pfleger kind of comments.

    those terms (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Edgar08 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:25:45 AM EST
    are unacceptable.

    [ Parent ]
    Not to mention (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:28:19 AM EST
    that the media will run with that stuff independent of what HRC's supporters do or don't do.

    [ Parent ]
    What terms? You mean (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:32:20 PM EST
    that DEMOCRATS will stop attacking other DEMOCRATS?  You mean that Democrats will be on the same side against the Republicans?  You mean that we can stop playing "gotcha" over every comment the other candidate makes?  You mean we can focus on John McCain and all his flip flops and his pandering and his support of Bush and his support of the war...  

    [ Parent ]
    Politics in general is a slug fest.. (none / 0) (#218)
    by zfran on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:37:51 PM EST
    this primary season has been a travesty..Pelosi doesn't want a unity ticket, she wants to be able to have full control. I don't matter, you don't matter, the country doesn't matter.

    [ Parent ]
    please explain (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by Josey on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:51:18 AM EST
    >>>once both candidates are on the same side you'll see much less of the Rev. Pfleger kind of comments.

    So Pfleger is only delivering hatemongering for Hillary from the pulpit until she withdraws and "unites" with Obama?
    ha!
    You don't seem to get it - Hillary is the target in this video - but the church condones bashing other people and other entities and Obama has listened to it for 20 years!! It's a part of him and he's demonstrated those beliefs throughout the primary.


    [ Parent ]

    So when he bashes Cindy McCain that will be cool. (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by davnee on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:58:06 AM EST
    Don't you get it?  Bashing white women to induce an hysteria of hate is cool so long as it serves the interests of the precious.  Of course, the poster could alternatively be suggesting that no white women bashing will ever pass Pflegler's lips again once HRC is put in her place.  But I don't think the poster is that willfully stupid.

    [ Parent ]
    I can't wait for (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Salo on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:15:48 PM EST
    Th efather to start muttering about imperialistic running dogs like McCain and his family of slave owners and militarists....he won't be able to keep his mouth shut about that particular scion of the Imperial US Navy.

    [ Parent ]
    But Michelle Obama is (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:28:19 PM EST
    regularly bashed on this site.  Why is that ok?

    [ Parent ]
    TalkLeft is not a church with a pulpit (5.00 / 2) (#268)
    by Josey on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:11:04 PM EST
    but please provide the evidence for your assertion.


    [ Parent ]
    So you're (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by rnibs on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:53:32 AM EST
    saying she has to subjugate herself to a less qualified man so that his church will stop trashing her on a regular basis?

    I can't wait to hear what that church will be screaming about her when he loses the GE (or she wins it!).


    [ Parent ]

    Subjugate? Come on (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:27:05 PM EST
    IF he wins the nomination it is not an insult to ask her to be the VP.  

    And IF she wins the nomination she will need his supporters - some of which were in that church - if she wants to win.

    Don't you think that HRC supporters trash him on a regular basis? But you're ok with that because you agree with it. Yes?

    [ Parent ]

    And what of the seven (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Lahdee on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:02:51 PM EST
    pages of Wright, Trinity Church, et al videos that come up on a utube search? You can bet those will be fodder for some republican 527 that mccain will denounce as he winks and nods for the faithful.

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:11:42 PM EST
    You mean the Republicans won't be able to find stuff like this?  Oh right - because they have no experience in finding this kind of stuff....

    [ Parent ]
    No. I mean that Dems (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:22:05 PM EST
    will be working together to direct their fire onto McCain where it belongs, instead of at each other.

    And, a Unity Ticket, no matter who is at the top, signals that they are on the same side. Signals to their supporters that is.  

    [ Parent ]

    Not against (5.00 / 4) (#213)
    by Arabella Trefoil on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:35:06 PM EST
    a candidate. Have we sunk this low that we must have a "hatred tartget" (McCain) in order to be effective? I vote FOR a candidate based on qualifications. I vote FOR Hillary.

    Obama is dangerously inept and inexperienced. I fear for my country if he becomes CIC.

    Obamabots hold out the yummy marzipan carrot of hate. They try to tantalize us with the prospect of "fighting against McCain." As a "united" borg.

    [ Parent ]

    Hillary as VP on an Obama ticket (3.00 / 2) (#219)
    by samanthasmom on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:38:04 PM EST
    will signal to this Hillary Supporter that it's time to get the McCain sign out on the lawn.

    [ Parent ]
    Feh (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:15:30 AM EST
    the party wants to commit suicide I think. It's the way it looks right now. The fact that Obama would have to have Clinton on the ticket so she could push him over the finish line speaks pretty poorly of Obama's chances. In the end I don't know that even she would be able to do it. After Obama's campaign joking about how they would need food testers if she was the VP, I think it is a moot point and the VP slot will not be offered.

    Hillary can win in November (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by Prabhata on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:16:56 AM EST
    It's absurd to make her a VP when she is the best candidate.  If Obama wants to be POTUS, let him win it on his merits.  I will not vote for a unity ticket that puts Hillary as second fiddle to an incompetent.

    Clinton/Obama or nothing (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by goldberry on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:17:02 AM EST
    Obama/Clinton will not mollify the people who got dissed by the Obama campaign.  OTOH, I have found that most normal Obama supporters are amenable to switching to Clinton without much anxiety.  
    If he offers her the VP slot, it is my hope that she turns it down.  I'd rather suffer through four years of McCain than a lifetime of second class citizenship.  

    Either/or? (4.00 / 4) (#67)
    by mattt on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:38:51 AM EST
    I'd rather suffer through four years of McCain than a lifetime of second class citizenship.
    Considering who McCain would appoint to the SCOTUS, I'm not sure that's an either/or.

    [ Parent ]
    Then younger women should think about it (5.00 / 4) (#205)
    by goldberry on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:31:24 PM EST
    The Roe v Wade threat has lost its punch.  With O'Connor gone and Kennedy being the ego that he is, there is absolutely nothing stopping the SCOTUS from overturning Roe now.  And as for commerce and civil rights protections, we are already outnumbered.  
    But the psychological damage due to a much more qualified woman once again passed over for promotion by a hotshot man who shmoozed his way to the top?  Incalculable.  I do NOT want that idea to be solidified into something I have to look at.  Plus it sets a really bad precedent for other men to just go ahead and play dirty tricks and get the old boys club behind you to stomp all over a better qualified woman who is in your way.  This election has the potential of setting gender equity back 4 decades.  Either she leads the ticket or she tells him to shove the VP position where the sun don't shine.  When he comes back to ths senate after losing to McCain, I hope she makes his life a living hell.  

    [ Parent ]
    You bet. (5.00 / 3) (#231)
    by Arabella Trefoil on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:42:38 PM EST
    Roe v. Wade? Sorry. I'm not afraid of the wire coat hangers the Obamabots wave in my face. Let the younger generation sort out reproductive rights for themselves.

    If Roe v. Wade is overturned, abortion won't be illegal. It will probably be a state issue. Any way, I have no faith that Obama would nominate liberal judges.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks (none / 0) (#284)
    by mattt on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:30:16 PM EST
    for replying and stating your opinion frankly.  Too often these issues are swept under the rug, and one of the great things about this campaign has been the opportunity to discuss issues of gender (and race) openly.  We come from different persepctives and one of the reasons I remain engaged here is to try and understand what it is that drives this deep commitment to Clinton and her candidacy, so thanks for sharing.  (seriously, that expression is too often used snarkily but not in this case)

    I submit in reply that election to the Presidency is not a promotion from the Senate.  There's more to it than the resume.  If this primary had been decided entirely on qualifications like time in the Senate or legislation sponsored, the winner should have been Biden or Dodd.  With executive experience in a large state, George W. Bush was arguably more "qualified" than either Clinton or Obama.  One of the reasons Obama backers have chafed at Clinton's use of the "experience" card is that if she succeeds in making that the dominant issue the most experienced candidate in 2008 is....John McCain.

    Sure, Obama's done some schmoozing.  "Schmoozing" is as good a word as any to describe how Clinton lined up about 100 superdelegate endorsements before the race even started, including many from states that later vote