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Thursday Morning Open Thread

Your turn. This is an Open Thread.

Oh just one thing, if you are fine with the what is said by the Rev. Pfleger in the video I post below, then just say so. I am surprised at the outrage at those of us commenting on it while no outrage from those commenters is aimed at the words of Rev. Pfleger.

BTD

Comments now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    I am outraged (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:18:08 AM EST
    but not surprised.

    That church is very consistent in its views on white people, entitlement and Bill and Hillary Clinton.

    I guess I'm disgusted more than anything (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by ruffian on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:33:14 PM EST
    These charlatan grandstanders make me sick.  I did not get a chance to watch the video this morning from my work computer, but I just watched it, and the main thing that struck me was that it was all just put on for entertainment.  It has nothing to do with religion, IMHO.

    But yes, this stuff is going to cost us the GE.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama uses black liberation theology phrases (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Exeter on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:57:08 PM EST
    ...dog whistle phrases when he talks to black audiences, including saying repeatedly that he is a member of the "Joshua generation"

    [ Parent ]
    I am neither surprised nor outraged (none / 0) (#40)
    by Manuel on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:42:07 AM EST
    I am tired of outrage.  I leave that to Obama supporters.  It isn't a secret that there are people who hold these views (for whatever reasons).  It isn't a secret that this church is sympathetic to these views.  These views, IMO, are logically flawed but should be part of the dialog.  I don't what purpose being outraged serves.


    [ Parent ]
    It is a secret (5.00 / 11) (#54)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:55:29 AM EST
    to most Americans that there are churches like that, IMHO.

    Black Liberation Theology is not a mainstream Christian sect. And how many preachers talk that way about politicians from the pulpit? I thought we were supposed to separate church and state.

    Personally, I don't care what you believe, as long as you're not running for President. But Obama clearly cannot dodge his connection to this church and its beliefs.

    I'm outraged that this type of hatred and historical fiction is what Obama listened to for 20 years. I'm outraged that he didn't walk out and take his family with him. I'm outraged that this preacher is an active part of Obama's campaign. And finally, I'm outraged that anyone, ANYONE would consider Obama to be a better choice for President than Hillary.

    Sorry if you think my feelings "serve no purpose," but this is an Open Thread, after all.


    [ Parent ]

    Hyperbole, much? (1.00 / 3) (#69)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:07:49 AM EST
    Outraged that anyone would consider Obama a better choice?! Okay, fair enough, I mean I damit I'm a bit puzzled and angered that anyone who claims to care aobut Iraq can rank Hillary above Obama, but I don't think that people who value other things higher (say: Healthcare) should have the same ordering that I do (her plan is better, its just unpassable).

    [ Parent ]
    Oh lord (5.00 / 7) (#81)
    by Steve M on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:12:02 AM EST
    We have another one of these "we can change the way politics is done in this country, but we can't possibly persuade people to accept mandates for health care" people.

    I have no idea why people who are so politically timid are uplifted even the tiniest bit by Obama's message.  Good luck enacting a progressive agenda if you're not even willing to fight for something this mildly controversial.

    [ Parent ]

    good point (4.33 / 3) (#98)
    by Salo on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:32:36 AM EST
    At this stage we should have an orthodoxy where half our party want Single Payer and the other half want UHC at the very least.

    What we have is Obama who is saying stuff that is the same as McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama's plan isn't passable if he's not electable (none / 0) (#91)
    by kempis on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:19:20 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I admire some things in liberation theology (none / 0) (#141)
    by Manuel on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:40:37 PM EST
    Particularly in Latin America in the tradition of people like Ernesto Cardenal.  While I may disagree with their logic, I do not question their desire for social justice.  I don't find outrage to be on the way to finding common ground.  In no way do I intend to diminish your feelings.  My question would be.  After the outrage, what comes next?

    [ Parent ]
    I don't think its accurate... (none / 0) (#47)
    by Y Knot on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:49:27 AM EST
    ... but I think it's pretty darned funny.  That guy should do stand up.


    [ Parent ]
    Sure - 'bout as funny as the (none / 0) (#136)
    by ruffian on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:35:00 PM EST
    'Mind of Mencia'

    and I don't mean that as a slam on white or hispanic comedians

    [ Parent ]

    Outrage Or Not Is Not The Main Point IMO (none / 0) (#128)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:24:04 PM EST
    The main point is how this video will play to average Americans during the GE. Anyone who thinks that the Republicans are not going to use a composite of the worse of Wright and Pfleger has their head in the sand. People are not going to buy into the Obama meme that he was completely in the dark about this type of church rhetoric after being a member for 20 years. Don't think that you will find many average Americans who agree with what is said at this church or that they should throw away their 401 plan either.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm astonished (none / 0) (#174)
    by daria g on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:28:03 PM EST
    Nothing like this ever went on at the Catholic church I attended for 16 years.. and I'm no expert on liberation theology but I never thought it sounded like that, at all.  And I don't know what positive change he's trying to bring to his congregation with that kind of talk.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry to repost (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by Kathy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:18:27 AM EST
    but this is very troubling to me.

    "I will step in," Pelosi told the paper. "Because we cannot take this fight to the convention...It must be over before then."

    I caught it on CNN

    They are obviously trying to strong-arm Clinton.  I hope she's got enough supporters to push back.  This is just disgusting.

    I am outraged by Pelosi's stupidity (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:19:10 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Obama agrees with her (5.00 / 7) (#6)
    by Kathy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:21:57 AM EST
    He said that after Tuesday, the ge will start.  He got coy and said, "I hope the nominee will be me" but you don't say that kind of crap unless you're sure.

    This is just absolutely disgusting to me.  I know I posted it on the other thread, but there is no way this will be legitimate.  I am so sick of the dem party and all their posturing.  

    It's had the opposite effect on me, though.  I'm stepping up my calls and I'm going to send in more money (at least my cats will).

    Rise, Hillary, Rise!

    [ Parent ]

    The Democratic Party is no longer (none / 0) (#115)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:07:12 PM EST
    democratic.

    Wonder how many years it will take them to rebuild their membership.

    There's one group of women trying to start a woman's party, but that seems to leave out a huge membership opportunity with the many men who are equally insulted and turned off by both the party and the dreadful campaign Obama has run.


    [ Parent ]

    The frustration (none / 0) (#159)
    by Andy08 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:12:00 PM EST
    out there from women at how the media, the DNC and the Obama campaign have started, participated, encouraged and/or allowed
    the blatant misogyny and utmost disrespect for HRC and women
    in general is huge and very very strong.

    The DNC is  high on stupidity by not realizing the great divide  already exists out there and have helped create exists out there.  

    A joint ticket won't work and it's pipe dreaming (imho).  Unity will not come from the work on any single person in the part from now till November.  It will come from the passage of time and the renewal of the DNC leadership and many of the
    responsible players. The DNC has done ZERO to call teh media out on its behavior b/c it favored Obama. That is unforgivable and unforgettable.   The Obama campaign not once has even tepidly said this is wrong.  

    [ Parent ]

    OK, this one I really don't get. (none / 0) (#121)
    by mattt on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:18:45 PM EST
    The last primaries are Tuesday.  FL and MI will hopefully be resolved also.  The primary process will be over, and Obama hopes to have the delegates necessary to win the nomination.

    What is disgusting about that?  Is he obligated to defer to some Clintonites' "It's not over till she says it's over!" rhetoric?

    [ Parent ]

    Superdelegates don't vote until the convention (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by cymro on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:51:57 PM EST
    ... and neither candidate can get a majority based on pledged delegates alone. So it's not over until the superdelgates' votes are counted. At the convention.

    This is not Clintonite's rhetoric, those are the party's RULES.

    [ Parent ]

    No delegates, (none / 0) (#201)
    by mattt on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:05:11 PM EST
    super or pledged, vote until the convention.  When has that ever stopped the frontrunner from claiming the nomination at the end of primary season?

    Obama's comment is just such standard fare, I don't get the outrage.

    [ Parent ]

    You are deliberately missing the point ... (none / 0) (#211)
    by cymro on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:28:30 PM EST
    ... about not having a majority. Cite instances of candidates claiming victory without having a majority.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm guessing (none / 0) (#222)
    by mattt on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:57:00 PM EST
    he may be expecting enough superdels to declare for him after Tuesday to put him over the top.  We'll see.

    [ Parent ]
    Pelosi couldn't even stand up (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by andgarden on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:25:07 AM EST
    to George Bush.

    I am not especially worried about her, except to the degree that her rhetoric could be damaging.

    [ Parent ]

    True, the Obama supporters will give her an (none / 0) (#132)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:29:07 PM EST
    authority level that adds substance to what she says. Clinton supporters know she didn't all of a sudden develop some smarts.


    [ Parent ]
    There is also a large DNC fundraiser happening (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by americanincanada on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:25:42 AM EST
    on June 4th, 28,500.00 per person. Obama is the featured speaker.

    According to the event organizer, the fund-raiser is meant to signal that the Democratic Party establishment is getting ready to recognize Obama as their candidate and shift Democrats' focus away from the protracted primary with Hillary Clinton and onto the general election against Republican John McCain.

    According to the organizer, "We don't want it to look like a victory party," but rather, "a reality check."

    LINK

    [ Parent ]

    WTH? Why does these people (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:28:17 AM EST
    despise half of the damn Party?

    [ Parent ]
    The New Plutocratic Party: (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:30:54 AM EST
    We don't need no stinkin' poor people! (TM)

    [ Parent ]
    someone needs to tell the aa (none / 0) (#182)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:39:07 PM EST
    community that many of their number aren't needed if that is the case. they are looking to democrats to help right things. sad

    [ Parent ]
    You don't have to be poor ... (none / 0) (#193)
    by cymro on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:54:25 PM EST
    ... to understand polls. Obama cannot beat McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    In MANHATTEN? (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:31:10 AM EST
    Man, the gall of these clowns.  Some Party.

    [ Parent ]
    And, you can't e-mail her without being (none / 0) (#9)
    by zfran on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:24:29 AM EST
    in her jursidiction.

    [ Parent ]
    Just left Speaker Pelosi a voice message (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by zfran on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:29:35 AM EST
    at:202 225-4965 regarding that she would step in before the convention. I doubt she listens, but I left it anyway.

    [ Parent ]
    I've just emailed her (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:48:18 AM EST
    She's the Speaker of the House, so you most assuredly can write to her even if you don't live in her District.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, I've done it myself (none / 0) (#14)
    by andgarden on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:25:59 AM EST
    yeah?

    [ Parent ]
    Just did it (none / 0) (#22)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:29:03 AM EST
    See my comment in the video / Father Pflegler post.

    I wrote her in relation to this very comment.

    [ Parent ]

    Truly sick. (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:19:43 AM EST
    I can not believe these hacks.

    [ Parent ]
    She certainly picked the wrong fight! (5.00 / 8) (#12)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:25:28 AM EST
    Since this is an open thread, I'll go on a bit.

    If the Republicans, like the Dems in 2006, had suddenly regained power in Congress, no matter how slim the margins, they would have HAD A PLAN.

    They would have been seen, every day, fighting and fighting for what their party stands for. They would have been willing to go as radical as necessary to prove their point.

    Clearly, the only way to end the war in Iraq was either to stop the funding by shutting down the government, or to impeach Bush and Cheney. Those actions should have been taken on Day One.

    Just my opinion, but strong and wrong beats weak and right every time. And strong and right is ALWAYS a winner!

    In this case, Pelosi is both weak AND wrong. Not an attractive combination.

    [ Parent ]

    She's going to step in on this? (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:26:22 AM EST
    But she took impeachment off the table.

    Methinks she has her priorities outta whack.

    [ Parent ]

    I've said it before: (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by frankly0 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:27:52 AM EST
    Hillary's job in the days to come (assuming she wins the popular vote) is to go above the heads of the Democratic bigshots and media who are fawning for Obama and take her case directly to the American people, who will certainly listen to her claims that she is entitled to be the nominee because she won the popular vote and because she's more electable.

    This tactic will prove very powerful in shutting up the likes of Nancy Pelosi.

    [ Parent ]

    How Exactly (none / 0) (#65)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:04:36 AM EST
    Does she do this without media coverage?

    [ Parent ]
    My question as well (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by ruffian on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:12:01 AM EST
    Taking to to the people only works if you can talk to the people through a neutral medium. Her giving a 20 minute speech followed by 2 hours of pundits mocking it will not help.

    [ Parent ]
    If she makes the argument, the media will (none / 0) (#133)
    by frankly0 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:30:46 PM EST
    simply have to cover it.

    It will be news; she's still just far too prominent for it not to be.

    I don't doubt but that the media itself will sneer at her, but that's where she'll be able to go over their heads and persuade people directly. People won't generally listen to their arguments -- they will listen to the arguments they find convincing, and those will be Hillary's.

    [ Parent ]

    If the rules (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:47:14 AM EST
    committee doesn't fully reinstate MI and FL there will be another reason for her to stay in. Levin has said that he will accept nothing less than full reinstatement.

    [ Parent ]
    She's done a terrible job of standing up to (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:01:04 AM EST
    the republicans; what makes her think she will be able to resolve this problem.  Let the will of he people decide.  They have made enough of a mess of this.

    [ Parent ]
    well (none / 0) (#113)
    by boredmpa on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:00:48 PM EST
    I said yesterday I'd vote against CA state and federal reps for being anti-democratic, enabling misogyny, and abandoning the working class.

    Pelosi has shown little leadership because her support is too strong...she has no risk and no downside.  Nonetheless, I will support any dem that opposes her and vote for her opponent in the general in 2010 if she doesn't clean up her act and grow a spine.

    [ Parent ]

    I was thinking about this too. (none / 0) (#135)
    by Grace on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:34:17 PM EST
    My Congressman is supporting Obama even though my district went for Clinton.  

    He won his seat in the most expensive congressional race ever (the one against Jim Rogan who was a House Impeachment Manager).  

    He seems like a nice guy who works hard but I'm really ticked off that he's chosen to support the candidate the district didn't go for.  In my mind, this is one of the most important votes he has in Congress.  I would like him to do "the will of the people" and support Clinton.  

    It's so tempting to NOT vote for him.  

    [ Parent ]

    pelosi is so full of herself, it's a wonder (none / 0) (#166)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:19:38 PM EST
    she has any internal organs left.

    [ Parent ]
    There is a really funny video (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:21:12 AM EST
    on NoQuarter called Red State Update, but I don't know how to properly ink it here.

    Masslib....is this it? (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:08:10 AM EST
    link

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, it's hysterical. (none / 0) (#76)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:10:27 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    ratboat! i saw it awhile back and it is (none / 0) (#167)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:22:18 PM EST
    still funny!

    [ Parent ]
    I watched a few of their videos (none / 0) (#145)
    by tree on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:46:26 PM EST
    earlier in the campaign season and thought they were great, but had forgotten all about them. This bit was hilarious. Thanks for the link.

    [ Parent ]
    What so wrong if it goes to the convention? (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Saul on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:25:24 AM EST
    Can someone tell me what's wrong if it gets to the convention.  I thought that's what conventions were for to discuss your difference and in the end you come up with the best candidate. So it gets rowdy so what.

    Secondly who is Pelosi to tell the rest of us I don't want this to go to the convention.  Like she has some power or something to stop it.

    They do have the power (5.00 / 6) (#67)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:06:25 AM EST
    to stop it.  They feel they must.  They know Obama looks worse everyday.  They want no polls, no voting, no protests over FL/MI.  If they are shutting it down, they have the SDs.

    They don't want it to go to convention because they selected Obama years ago and began preparing him to run.  He is their project and they have put a lot of time in to him.

    I am hoping some SDs have a backbone and will push back and represent the people.

     ha! ha! ha!  I made myself laugh.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL - me too (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by ruffian on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:08:44 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    so you recall her comment (none / 0) (#170)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:23:58 PM EST
    about "they are the leaders". what does that make us? well we won't be followers, nancy, at least not in your parade you QX#@@!

    [ Parent ]
    For the record (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:26:51 AM EST
    Father Pflegler's comments disgusted me.  The Catholic Church I grew up and attend is about love, peace, harmony, and bringing people together (at least in theory, and that's what I try to get out of it).  If he tried this outside his parish, the congregation would get up and leave.

    I hope the Francis Cardinal George comments.

    I agree... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:29:55 AM EST
    Father Pflegler's statements are appalling.

    But I also agree with kdog re: freedom of speech. He has every right to look like a complete and total whack job ranting up there on his podium.

    Though I wonder...does the political/HRC part violate 501c3 guidelines?

    [ Parent ]

    Oh (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:36:24 AM EST
    I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to say it, but he's also fair game (and by extension Obama) since he even commented that it was streaming video.  Father Pflegler knew this would end up on the internet.  And Obama is fair game since this is a high profile, outspoken supporter of both him and Rev. Wright and since Obama made his religiosity part of his campaign.

    [ Parent ]
    Sure he does, and we have every right (none / 0) (#116)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:10:19 PM EST
    to apply the teachings of that church to the values and opinions of the long-standing members of it.

    I think Michelle absolutely displays herself to be a very loyal and well-taught student of this church. Obama hides it a little better, though it really does come out in the many times I've seen him look down his nose at Hillary.


    [ Parent ]

    I am surprised that... (none / 0) (#139)
    by santarita on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:37:41 PM EST
    that church doesn't have the IRS looking at their tax exempt status for using the pulpit for political purposes.

    I also thought that Father Pfleger was over the top but if that act allows him to connect with the needy people in his parish then it's ok with me.

    And in all fairness to that church, it does seem that the tape was edited.

    Having said that, the demonization of Hillary evidenced in that tape is more like the rants of Fra Savanorola than of Mother Teresa.

    [ Parent ]

    HRC and God could both tag team me (5.00 / 8) (#17)
    by davnee on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:27:40 AM EST
    from now until November and I still wouldn't vote for Obama.  They could take me to lunch.  They could buy me a car.  They could offer me eternal salvation.  They could tell me HRC was going to be veep and entirely and singlehandedly run the country as the precious' puppet master.  My answer would still be no.

    And what is happening at TUCC is the embodiment of evil.  It is stoking the fire of hatred and pandering to the baseness in all of us.  It's like ancient blood sport.

    Can you just imagine what the sermons (none / 0) (#118)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:12:48 PM EST
    would sound like in that church if Obama were to win the GE?

    What if Obama can't give them what they expect?

    [ Parent ]

    South Dakota Might Swing (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by flashman on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:28:01 AM EST
    The word on the wire is that South Dakota might be closer than we've been told.  The demographics would seem to favor Hillary, being very similar to that of KY and WV.  Obama has the advantage in organization and endorsements from the pols in the state.

    Question: It was said that after TX & OH that one candidate can swing the nomination if (s)he wins on the other's truf.  Thus, if Hillary could win in NC, OR, SD, MT, etc... she would then wrap up the nomination.  She already won the 'tiebreaker' in IN.  So, if she pulls off the upset in South Dakota, can she wrap up the win?

    Angarden, what say ye? about this (none / 0) (#31)
    by Lil on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:34:05 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    No (none / 0) (#75)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:10:07 AM EST
    that used to be the goal post.  They won't let Clinton have the nom.  She could completely switch SD demonstrating Obama's incredible weakness in the GE, they won't give it to her.  She could take SD and the popular vote and they won't give it to her.  They picked Obama a long time ago and they will have their shiny new toy.

    That being said.... I would have a completely evil grin on my face if she took SD.

    Got some polls?

    [ Parent ]

    It's double-day for Clinton contributions (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by smott on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:28:41 AM EST
    You can double your money today

    https://contribute.hillaryclinton.com/match1.html?sc=1883&utm_source=1883&utm_medium=e&t a=0

    Heh (5.00 / 6) (#29)
    by Steve M on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:33:16 AM EST
    I will be perfectly honest.  In a campaign where Obama's campaign co-chair said "Hillary didn't cry over Katrina" on national TV and no one even had to apologize for it, I've pretty much given up on unrequited outrage at this point.

    Consider that the part of Rev. Wright's videos where he brings up the word that Hillary ain't never been called is one of the least-discussed aspects of those videos.

    I'm resigned to the fact that you can say pretty much anything you like about Hillary Clinton, no matter how deranged, and the elites of this country will still consider you perfectly welcome in polite company.  Those appear to be the rules of this campaign, there's nothing I can do about them.  So why get agitated?

    The Hillary part (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by madamab on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:39:59 AM EST
    was almost as disturbing as the racism and the GD America stuff. Saying she's never had to work twice as hard as a man was jaw-droppingly stupid.

    Not only was it completely inappropriate to include that political speech in a church, but the remarks also showed a complete lack of recognition of what his female constituents go through every day, regardless of their color.

    Newsflash to Reverends of TUCC: AA women experience sexism, too.

    GASP!

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly (none / 0) (#68)
    by ruffian on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:06:29 AM EST
    I don't go to church, so maybe I'm out of the loop, but when did preachers start ridiculing political leaders in their sermons? That is not the Catholic church I grew up with.

    Another Newsflash: Catholic priest denigrates women.

    [ Parent ]

    at this point hillary could wear a (none / 0) (#173)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:26:17 PM EST
    red star on her chest, chant "i really dig castro" and any other outrageous thing, i still wouldn't vote for obama. i'll vote down ticket all day for the dems based on performance. but no way no time no how!

    [ Parent ]
    I wish preachers would stick to G_d. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Fabian on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:34:04 AM EST
    And leave politics out of it.  Or if they need to open their mouths, then stick to the Issues - justice, charity, equality, the common bond of humanity and divinity.

    But coming across as a Public Access political ranter is not what I think religion should be about.  I wish he had been on Public Access, then I wouldn't have seen the audience standing up and applauding.

    I suppose I shouldn't say anything.  I only ever attended small Catholic churches without the pretty building and interiors, the great lighting and most definitely without the live streaming video.  When did church services stop being about People and God and start being Media Events?

    Some preachers have a hard time separating (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:19:34 PM EST
    themselves from G*d.


    [ Parent ]
    McCain's VP vetting team spotted ... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by DaveOinSF on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:35:28 AM EST
    One upside (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:45:07 AM EST
    The one thing this election does mae clear (and its a good thing) is that functional atheism, such as that held by McCain, Clinton and even Reagan and Bush Sr. (seriously, name any of there actual pastors) is the way to go-- belief is a handicap and frankly its about time!

    Now the downside, there is literally no way a tangental church issue, especially a sermon delivered by a guest speaker when Obama was in PR, can be what derails the man, at least in terms of the nomination. I'm sorry, but Clinton's rosy numbers as of present would nosedove if Supers moved en masse to her, especially among the African-American community, and I think deep down we all know this to be a fact.

    It's (4.50 / 2) (#108)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:54:39 AM EST
    more into the narrative about Obama's bad judgement. Obama has claimed that it was only Wright not the church. Well, it is the church and not just Wright. Obama continues to be a member there telling us what his values and beliefs are. He's been taking his children to that church too.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama embraces Wright's ideologies! (none / 0) (#57)
    by Josey on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:57:44 AM EST
    and a major reason I won't vote for Obama.
    Obama has deflected his Empty Suit by relying on race-baiting, hatemongering, and fearmongering to drive his campaign.
    Of course none of this would be possible without the elite Washington and media establishment ignoring it and promoting him.
    I'm no longer affiliated with the Dem Party because I detest being aligned with any organization that condones race-baiting and false accusations of racism against opponents.

    [ Parent ]
    O-kay (1.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:13:03 AM EST
    Nice little rant there, I mean sure it isn't backed by anthing but I guess its good to vent.

    [ Parent ]
    my comment is based on evidence (none / 0) (#102)
    by Josey on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:37:55 AM EST
    but it's not found on Obama blogs that dismiss anything negative about Obama that the GOP would use in the general.
    Obama "brushing Hillary off" the bottom of his shoe while laughing along with the crowd is the same laughter Wright incites with his racist rants and hatemongering.

    Obama has consistently demonstrated Wright's ideologies in words and deeds.

    [ Parent ]

    No beliefs (none / 0) (#109)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:57:53 AM EST
    Then Obama is your man. I find no evidence that he believes in anything except his willingness to become president. He's impossible to pin down. According to Los Angeles Times, he alternately went to a mosque and a Catholic Church as a child. He supported last fall in Kenya the candidacy of his relation Odinga, an Episcopalian who apparently supports an extreme form of Islam. (This last has been very scattily reported by the press to date, and is complicated by some flakey blog-reported stuff.)

    He jettisons his affiliations and "beliefs" easily, when they prove a barrier to his ambitions.

    Despite being photographed in front of a cross at a pulpit, I don't see much working evidence of any kind of "belief" -- just a vanity about being able to be a chamelion (sp?) in a world where others are giving their lives for their commitments.  

    I am a committed person -- committed to things other than myself -- and I find this troubling.

    The most reassuring thing about Obama -- and no one comments on this -- is his obvious commitment to his wife and children.  At least there's one group of people he's not willing to throw under the bus.

    Given an alcoholic, polygamist father and a flakey misfit mother -- this is no mean achievement. And I mean that seriously.

    [ Parent ]

    UNITY TICKET ALERT (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by andgarden on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:46:44 AM EST
    EPIC/MRA:

    Michigan (600 LVs, May 19-22, MOE +/- 4%)

    Obama/Clinton 51
    McCain/Romney 44

    McCain 44
    Obama 40

    h/t Tdd Beeton

    Then put the stronger candidate on top of (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:52:25 AM EST
    the ticket.  I wonder what happened to the meritocracy.  Apparently, job experience is no longer a requirement for POTUS.  

    [ Parent ]
    You can keep arguing for it (none / 0) (#53)
    by andgarden on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:54:22 AM EST
    but I don't think it's going to happen.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, I know you POV. (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:57:07 AM EST
    I frankly find that a defeatist attitude.  In politics, you make your argument and hammer away.

    [ Parent ]
    andgarden, you and btd both (none / 0) (#175)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:28:31 PM EST
    make excellent points and i just love unity ponies, but the other side isn't listening. they are concentrating on running for the side of the cliff it seems.

    [ Parent ]
    Re: Rev. Pfleger (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Chimster on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:52:05 AM EST
    Now I remember why I don't go to church.

    He's playing to the audience. It's Barrack's church. Of course they want to hear that stuff. The only issue I have is that he's fanning the flames of racism. But that's what that particular church wants to hear. If it's Pro-Obama, I don't think it matters whether it's the truth or not. If the congregation didn't want to hear it, they'd leave. Just like Barrack did for the past 20 years.

    Obama wants to lead the Dems to religion (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by ruffian on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:00:15 AM EST
    in talking more openly about religion and making it as important a part of the party value system as it is to Republicans.  Of course he uses the more user-friendly word "faith". That is what I find outrageous.

    I don't want any politician's religious advisors in my face. I don't want my political leaders to even have a religious advisor.

    Unbelievable..really..they can't let it go (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by americanincanada on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:02:53 AM EST
    Michelle Obama Calms Supporters' Fear of Threats to Obama

    When asked about her husband's security in the White House and Clinton's RFK remarks at a Phoenix fundraiser Tuesday, she reassures the crowd saying:

    "Send us good vibes. Pray for us. Think positive thoughts. But most of all, be vigilant. Be vigilant about stopping this kind of talk. It's not funny. You don't have to like Barack to dislike that kind of talk. Be vigilant about stopping that kind of talk."

    LINK

    that is calming fears? (none / 0) (#86)
    by ruffian on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:15:24 AM EST
    "Be vigilant" ?

    Considering she has been stoking the fears all along, this is really somehting.

    [ Parent ]

    Agreed (none / 0) (#97)
    by americanincanada on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:30:47 AM EST
    It is not good to stoke the fears or the hysterical tears of the fawning masses. Especially not now and not using veiled references to Hillary Clinton.

    Be Vigilant...sounds like a call to action.

    [ Parent ]

    a little perspective (none / 0) (#88)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:15:48 AM EST
    Um, its a prevalent fear among the African-American community, seriously, I realize that it may not seem real to you, but especially given the Assasination rate of major African-American leaders in American history, its not a baseless concern.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes but what exactly does this..... (none / 0) (#96)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:29:37 AM EST
    ...vigilance entail? It's as if she's deputizing the crowd. Reminds me of the Bush administration asking us to report "suspicious" people.

    [ Parent ]
    But it's okay with you if she keeps smearing (none / 0) (#107)
    by Joan in VA on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:53:54 AM EST
    Sen. Clinton in the name of concern?

    [ Parent ]
    well if you want to take it into historical (none / 0) (#177)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:31:13 PM EST
    context, a number of "white" politicans and leaders have also been assasinated. i appreciate the concern that the senator's campaign would have for his safety however.

    [ Parent ]
    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Steve M on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:08:30 AM EST
    With all due respect to those who believe it is absolutely critical to unearth every detail of Obama's uncle's military service, this is absolutely hilarious.

    uncles and great-uncles (none / 0) (#114)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:06:00 PM EST
    The reality -- and this backs Jeralyn's point on a separate thread -- is that it's impossible to confuse an uncle and great uncle.  Think of your own.  Could you possibly confuse what Uncle Ned is with great-uncle Joe? Different people, different generations, and you know both of them.

    Plus his mother was an only child.

    This really does suggest the family history is coming from handlers and researchers, and that's why it's so easy to screw up.

    And that says a lot.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (none / 0) (#130)
    by Steve M on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:24:55 PM EST
    I have a great-uncle who I have always referred to as an uncle.  I have a great-great-aunt who I have always referred to as an aunt.  Maybe I'm the only one, but I don't think so.

    [ Parent ]
    yeah but (none / 0) (#137)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:35:48 PM EST
    the confusion was deeper than that.

    Read Jeralyn's thread. It hangs together. He doesn't know much about family, and stories are being groomed and trotted out for presentation.

    It confirms the point I made below that this whole thing is being seen as manipulating perceptions, rather than dealing with the reality of who he is.

    [ Parent ]

    You are not alone in that... (none / 0) (#138)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:37:13 PM EST
    ...in my family we don't discern between great uncles/aunts or even 1st/2nd/3rd cousins.  It is much too complicated.  I have Aunts, Uncles and cousins.  

    The people who keep trying to make this non-issue into one are no better than the wingnuts that Sadly, No! are calling out today.  

    [ Parent ]

    yeah and i say great uncle! (none / 0) (#183)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:40:53 PM EST
    obama meant this and really meant that. been there done that!

    [ Parent ]
    and (none / 0) (#206)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:18:38 PM EST
    Auschwitz is almost the same as Buchenwald, anyway, right? Germany ... Poland ... what's the difference anyway.

    You're right. It's not a big deal, except that it illustrates Jeralyn's perceptive point.

    [ Parent ]

    Come on... (none / 0) (#213)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:35:39 PM EST
    ...why don't you do all the way and tell us all that he really didn't have relatives that served in WWII and he's just making it all up?  His mother was an only child, there are no records of his great uncle enlisting, etc.  

    You're not a very good water (Kool-Aide) carrier.

    [ Parent ]

    and neither are you. (none / 0) (#230)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:40:31 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Ah... (2.00 / 1) (#237)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:44:05 PM EST
    ...but I'm not trying to suck up to J like you are.  I'm simply LOL'ing at you.  

    [ Parent ]
    Jeralyn (none / 0) (#259)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:07:26 PM EST
    I've p.o.'ed Jeralyn plenty, and will undoubtedly do so in future. But I think her point was a good one, and I refer you to it once again.

    Auschwitz is just another opportunity to make something personal. A PR thing.  BHO acts like Auschwitz happened to bring us him.

    [ Parent ]

    You can refer me to it all you want... (none / 0) (#268)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:16:39 PM EST
    ..and I will still say that you are no different that a commenter at Red State or Power Line.  

    Ever been to Auschwitz or any other camp?  Did you loose family there?  If the answer is "no", you have nothing to add to the conversation.

    I happen to appreciate everyone of his uncle's generation that fought so that more people did not die under these horrendous circumstances.  You want to make it some petty vendetta against Obama.  Shame on you.  

    [ Parent ]

    one gaffe by itself is no big deal. (none / 0) (#228)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:38:31 PM EST
    repeated gaffes in his  books and speeches says a great deal and it isn't good.

    [ Parent ]
    I knew my great-uncles very well.. (none / 0) (#218)
    by FlaDemFem on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:51:26 PM EST
    saw them several times a year. And we all referred to them as "Uncle" not great-uncle. If I am referring to them today, they are deceased, I say, "Uncle Soandso, who was my grandfather's brother". I am not saying that Obama was personally familiar with the people he cites, but I am simply pointing out that in ordinary usage saying uncle when you refer to a great-uncle is quite acceptable. Other than that, I agree with you on his not knowing them well, or being interested in them as anything but stories on the campaign trail. That seems to be his main interest in other people, how he can use them for his own benefit.

    [ Parent ]
    it is a small part of the problem. i am sick (none / 0) (#229)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:39:55 PM EST
    of seeing of obama gaffes which are never ending it seems  and excused while hillary is attacked without mercy.

    [ Parent ]
    Me too, which is why I try (none / 0) (#277)
    by FlaDemFem on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:25:30 PM EST
    to be very fair when it comes to Obama and his utterances.

    [ Parent ]
    well that is all well and good, however (none / 0) (#289)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:41:09 PM EST
    it the reverse true? no, it isn't. calling obama on his stuff is important and not making excuses for him. enough of that has been done by the media.

    [ Parent ]
    Call him on stuff that matters, (none / 0) (#295)
    by FlaDemFem on Thu May 29, 2008 at 05:05:22 PM EST
    not taking something and blowing it way out of proportion. That is Obama's way of doing things. See?

    [ Parent ]
    none of us cares about obama's uncle (none / 0) (#180)
    by hellothere on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:34:57 PM EST
    or great uncle as the case may be. we care about his lack of candor, his continued "mistakes". hey he even misses the correct number of states. so don't try and show distain for concern about the welfare of our country when a "light weight" president is now finishing 8 years of disaster.

    [ Parent ]
    Has Obama agreed to (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by ding7777 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:15:36 AM EST
    give up the "white half" of all his monetary sucess in name of reparations?

    With friends like Pfleger, who needs enemies? (5.00 / 0) (#119)
    by Ben Masel on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:14:18 PM EST
    Pfleger's all about self-promotion, and clearly doesn't give a damn what effect he has on Obama's electability. Gotta question the political judgement of Obama's friends at Trinity giving him the pulpit just now.  

    Who cares? (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:21:25 PM EST
    Who cares if he smokes?

    I'm more concerned about the free passes he's been given on Wright and other issues by the DNC.

    In any other election, he would have been weeded out for these associations and gaffes (and guilt-by-association is a legal term -- it doesn't mean you don't consider a person's character in light of who they hang with; this is common sense).  

    Giving him a free pass isn't simply a matter of magnanimity.  The reason they were dropped in the past is that these kinds of issues tend to resurface with other ramifications.  They tend to flag character issues that will surface in other ways.  They make the candidate unelectable.

    That seems to be the case with this guy so far.  

    My Obama-campaigning friends, after the Wright story broke, said, "What would you like him to say?"

    This illustrates exactly the problem. The Obama fans tend to see things as public relations issues, image problems, rather than reality problems.

    He really does have a character issue -- not a perception issue.  It's not what he says, or how he presents himself, it's who he is -- and I'm not talking about race.   I'm talking about his inability to commit, his inability to make a statement and stick to it, I'm talking about choosing his associations on the basis of how they will advance him, and jettisoning them when they don't (like the "typical white grandmother" who paid for his expensive Hawaiian education, for one).

    People see this.  The Appalachians who are paying for their patriotism by sending their children to Baghdad see it.  They detect flimsiness and opportunism and elitism -- because they've had to pay all the way.  

    I said to an Obama supporter recently, "With Hillary, we know who her team will be." I have no idea, given who Obama surrounds himself with, who will be on his team. (And if they're halfway decent, can we elect them?)

    Wright was on his campaign team before the scandal broke.  Had it not broken, would he or Fr. Phleger be leading the National Prayer Breakfast?

    There's every reason to question the judgment of this man.

    It's not his ideas or his policies -- it's HIM.

    No one cares if he smokes, they care that he (5.00 / 0) (#131)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:26:36 PM EST
    lies.

    It's yet another one of those things that give us pause. Why lie about these things? Why is it so hard for him to just tell the truth about things that don't matter?

    [ Parent ]

    Be vigilant about stopping that kind of talk !!! (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by TalkRight on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    When asked about her husband's security in the White House and Clinton's RFK remarks at a Phoenix fundraiser Tuesday, she reassures the crowd saying:

    "Send us good vibes. Pray for us. Think positive thoughts. But most of all, be