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More On Unity, Krugman, Obama And FL/MI

Steve Benen concedes Paul Krugman's point but then does not absorb it. Indeed he makes it. Steve writes:

I don’t doubt for a moment that many Clinton supporters “feel that she has received unfair, even grotesque treatment.” In fact, I think those supporters are largely right and have every reason to be offended by some of what we’ve heard during the campaign. . . . The problem, I think, is that it’s a little too easy to misidentify the source of the problem, and I think Krugman may have been a little too quick to mention “Obama and his supporters.” There’s a difference, and it’s important.

Have some Obama supporters been quick to denigrate Clinton? Absolutely. But I’m not sure it makes sense for Clinton supporters to help John McCain — either directly (by voting for him) or indirectly (by staying home) — because some Obama fans were intemperate towards their favored candidate. Obama and Clinton have had a few dust-ups between them, but nothing outrageous or even unusual in the midst of a competitive process.

Krugman did not say it made sense. He said it could, even would, happen. He said voters are emotional. Steve Benen seems to believe all things in politics are nice rational choices by voters. They are not. Obama supporters would not treat Hillary Clinton as Satan and embrace the likes of Andrew Sullivan while vilifying Paul Krugman if that were the case. But they do. Heck look at Steve himself fall into complete nonsense in the very same post:

Last week, Clinton traveled to Florida to tell Dems that the party’s nominating process is not only illegitimate, but reminiscent of slavery, Jim Crow, and Zimbabwe. The message was divisive, misleading, and hypocritical. As Ezra [Klein], hardly an Obama cheerleader [Ezra is pretty much an Obama cheerleader in my estimation btw], put it, “As a message, it’s a mixture of toxic lies and scorched earth campaigning. It doesn’t help her win the nomination, but it makes the nomination worth a little bit less for the likely nominee…. She shouldn’t leave the race. But she should stop using her presence in it to rip apart the party and try to push major states out of Obama’s column.”

(Emphasis supplied.) Both Ezra and Steve have been completely obtuse on the Florida/Michigan issue. They have said, and Steve says, just plain false things about Hillary Clinton's argument regarding Florida and Michigan. Steve Benen's entire paragraph cited above is simply false. Clinton did not say any of what he said she said. He has taken her comments completely out of context and just plain told a falsehood about them.

Because Steve and Ezra do not care about counting the votes in Florida, they think it is unreasonable (or as Ezra puts it -- "a mixture of toxic lies and a scorched earth campaign") for anyone else, including Hillary Clinton, to care. The reality is Steve just made Paul Krugman's point, while attempting to refute it. An amazing performance.

Speaking for me only

< Will McCain Go After Hillary's Female Voters? | Number Crunching With Past Five Elections as a Guide >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I think it's funny (5.00 / 9) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:47:45 PM EST
    that supposedly astute political analysts need an economist to explain to them that people often do not behave rationally.  

    he's no longer an economist (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Turkana on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:16:43 PM EST
    he doesn't hate clinton and worship obama, so he's barely even human, anymore.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm sure if you look hard enough (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:17:56 PM EST
    you can find someone who called him fat.

    [ Parent ]
    whoops (none / 0) (#34)
    by boredmpa on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:24:41 PM EST
    wrong reply.

    ankle snark was for you :)

    [ Parent ]

    That's a club we all are members of now (5.00 / 5) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:21:57 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    *peeks at your ankles* (nt) (none / 0) (#32)
    by boredmpa on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:23:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    BTD -- "inequity aversion" (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by lambertstrether on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:20:41 PM EST
    That's the phrase you want. Not "rational choice."

    See here.

    NOTE If calling out commenters by name is not allowed here, feel free to delete or revise the comment...

    [ Parent ]

    Yes EXACTLY (none / 0) (#115)
    by Faust on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:55:02 PM EST
    Nice to see someone pointing this out.

    Lets be clear here though. Were the tables suddenly turned I think we would see exactly the same behavior on the Obama supporter side.

    For example I think Clintons poll numbers would drop due to the emergence of a perception of inequity (what Kos threatens when he suggests the party will plunge into "civil war" if there is a "coup by superdelegates") and thus the emergence of angry "vote witholding" on the part of Obama supporters.

    What is exceedingly odd is that people like Kos do not percieve that a mirror of this phenomenon is already in play on the Clinton side and that nothing needs to be done to address it. It will simply vanish on its own is the theory.

    [ Parent ]

    Iowa (1.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Exasperated on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:52:06 PM EST
    You know, my folks are the nicest people. They caucused for Obama, not only because they like the guy, but also because at the time, it was Hillary supporters that were rude.

    Pushy and arrogant, expecting the election to be handed to them. They called again and again different members of my family, to a one, The Hillary calls were rude and brusque.

    As some of them were undecided up to a point before the caucus, they were also treated to Obama supporters. Not only were they nicer, they had more information upon what Obama was about and what his plans were.

    Now everyone says, poor Hillary.

    She gets treated with kid gloves gooped up with vaseline and still to the bitter end she feels entitled to the prize.

    HM, maybe shell get it if she waits for June's history to supplant the delegate vote.

    Worthless Devil's Advocate Arguments.

    [ Parent ]

    Krugman's point presupposes that voting (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Mark Woods on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:32:22 PM EST
    for McCain if you are a Clinton supporter is 'emotional' when many Clinton supporters seem to me to have a solid 'rationale' for doing so, apart from their accompanying emotions.

    It seems at least vaguely sexist to imply that the Obama followers aren't driven by 'emotion', doesn't it?

    [ Parent ]

    He deserves to be punished (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by cawaltz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:50:30 PM EST
    because a true leader does not remain silent and allow his followers to demonize others. It strikes me ironic that his ploy to allow others to demonize the Clintons to obtain the primary may very cost him the GE.

    For the record, I will not vote for McCain. There is a real good chance that I won't be voting Obama either though. I don't like either of them at this point.

    Here's the problem (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:52:04 PM EST
    In that scenario, you can't punish Obama without punishing all Democrats.

    [ Parent ]
    That's true only if you (5.00 / 10) (#6)
    by dk on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:56:10 PM EST
    assume that Obama's election would be a good long-term development for the Democratic party and the policies that the party supposedly favors.  Some Democrats do not believe this to be the case.

    [ Parent ]
    Even supposing that were true (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:00:22 PM EST
    you would have to also believe that the election of McCain would be BETTER for the party than the election of Obama to rationally vote for anyone other than Obama. I would strenuously disagree with that.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, I can see both sides (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by dk on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:12:30 PM EST
    of this issue.  Assuming I am concerned about the long-term health of the Democratic party, I respect those concerned that Obama could so ruin the Democratic brand that, in the end, the effect of his presidency could have a more negative impact in the long-term than four years of McCain with a Democratic majority in Congress.  Of course, I agree with more of Obama's website than McCain's website, but voting on website white papers alone isn't always the most rational plan, in my opinion.

    [ Parent ]
    Well-crafted prose with nothing in actions to (none / 0) (#154)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon May 26, 2008 at 08:34:57 PM EST
    back it up as true and achievable is just campaign rhetoric.

    We need to watch this play out through convention to determine what the Democratic Party is really doing. They may have something up their sleeves to repair the damage they've done to themselves these past months, and if they don't, they are in self-destruct mode.

    [ Parent ]

    After seeing a fair share (none / 0) (#159)
    by Exasperated on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:30:07 PM EST
    of elections, I'm sure it's one of a few things that won't get covered.

    ex

    [ Parent ]

    There are other, more important priorities. (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by ineedalife on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:16:46 PM EST
    Some can quite reasonably conclude that four or eight more years of an arrogant, incompetent, rookie leadership at the helm will drive the Country past the point of no return. Policies be damned. Congress is there to blunt policy problems.

    Obama's response to a crisis is to give a speech. Hurricanes do not stop to listen to speeches. We don't know what shape or form the next crisis will take, but I have absolutely no confidence in Obama's ability in a crisis. His helpless silence all these months while his supporters were taking the metaphorical machetes to the Clinton and Democratic legacies, while his silence was clearly not in his best interest, leads me to believe he will choke under pressure.

    He has no grandparents left to sacrifice to the next round of demons we face. Will he move on to the first born?

    [ Parent ]

    Obama might be all of that (none / 0) (#28)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:18:52 PM EST
    but I would argue that McCain is an order of magnitude worse.

    [ Parent ]
    Worse than Bush? (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by pie on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:30:06 PM EST
    Doubtful.

    The repubs are trying to rehabilitate themselves, after all.

    [ Parent ]

    A weak Obama presidency would hurt ... (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by cymro on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:05:07 PM EST
    ... Democrats much more than a weak McCain presidency will.

    And anyway, if Obama is nominated, Democrats will not determine the outcome. Independents and Republican women who would otherwise vote for Clinton will elect McCain.

    For evidence of this, see the latest national Gallup poll. Obama leads Clinton among Democrats 53 to 42, but when the poll is expanded to all voters, Obama loses to McCain 47 to 44, while Clinton beats McCain 49 to 44.

    Clinton, not Obama, is clearly the one who expands the Democratic party.

    [ Parent ]

    53 to 42 lead (none / 0) (#126)
    by RalphB on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:17:47 PM EST
    that lead among Democrats also includes some of those who are "jumping on the bandwagon" of the winner.  Take away that effect and I doubt the numbers would be so good for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed. And if the question included .... (none / 0) (#135)
    by cymro on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:39:05 PM EST
    ... first telling the Democratic respondents the results of the two other national polls vs. McCain, I'm sure their preferences would shift accordingly. But their answers are reflecting the MSM and Obama campaign spin.

    [ Parent ]
    Whoops! (none / 0) (#155)
    by Grace on Mon May 26, 2008 at 08:51:25 PM EST
    I don't know what happened but this thing rated this a 1 from me -- maybe because I hit the arrow keys?  Sorry!  

    [ Parent ]
    I can take it!! But FYI ... (none / 0) (#157)
    by cymro on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:00:20 PM EST
    ... you can revise a rating. Another commenter showed me that recently.

    [ Parent ]
    I see... (none / 0) (#158)
    by Grace on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:08:07 PM EST
    I changed it!  Thanks for letting me know.  I've probably left other 1's without knowing it (because I didn't realize the arrow keys moving the rating when they don't let you scroll!)

    [ Parent ]
    Order of magnitude worse? (none / 0) (#80)
    by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:02:29 PM EST
    McCain has already said that he would have most troops out of Iraq by the start of 2013, which, as far as I can tell, is no different from where Obama is likely to have us. And for all of McCain's tough talk and swagger, it is Obama who combines inexperience with a promise to "finish the job" in Afghanistan with a troop surge there. I just don't see him as being less of a servant to American empire than McCain.

    And then there's the economy. Obama essentially promises to move the Democratic economic policies further to the right with his pro-market economic advisers and completely unsatisfying market-driven health-care reform. Plus, he promises to be post-partisan -- and from judging what I've seen from some so-called pillars of the progressive community, he can probably dismantle what little remains of our regulatory structures without sufficient opposition from good-government groups.

    Of course, whoever becomes president will have such a huge mess to cope with, fiscally, internationally, environmentally (climate change, energy crisis, etc.). If Obama falters in dealing with these impending crises, the GOP has a good chance of winning back the Congress in 2010.

    I still think McCain would probably be worse than Obama, but I no don't see it as an order of magnitude worse. I just hope my predictions are basless if Obama should manage to win the WH.

    [ Parent ]

    This is a delerious statement (none / 0) (#161)
    by Exasperated on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:43:01 PM EST
    What gets into people?

    Campaigns have a way of sapping the intelligence out of the most cogent people. (for instance, me using spell check for the word, intelligence...which I spelled right the second time)

    Seriously.

    Though I know this is one of those moments where, given the opportunity to look you straight in the eye and ask you, "Do you really believe what you said?" you would look back at me with wide doe-like eyes, partially mad, partially fearful and altogether ready for a staunch defensive, emotional,  "Yes."

    I'm sure I have read and watched just as much political rags as you, but my experience is totally different from yourn.

    So you think we have YET to reach rock bottom? Asinine thought. And you'll stick your neck out there and be culpable for the republican agenda...AGAIN.

    Fool you once. Well, there goes that axion.

    I guess I could take the time to cajole you along, give one the little pushes one needs to get one out of the house and into the voting booth, but why should I have to do that?

    Get a grip, cause I'm loosing it.

    [ Parent ]

    awwww what a shame! (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by Upstart Crow on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:44:56 PM EST
    You mean that we'll be "punishing" the likes of Brazile and the other DNC leaders. Awwwww whadda shame!

    Do these folks take reponsibiliy for anything?  Is it always the Bad Mommy's fault? Will anyone buy these folks a pocket mirror?

    They will lose because of their own choices and behaviors.

    I'm a parent. If you want behavior to change, you have to have boundaries, penalties for transgressons -- and you never reward poor behavior.

    [ Parent ]

    There (5.00 / 5) (#93)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:16:59 PM EST
    are a couple of things at play here.

    One is if we lose 3 presidential elections in a row we'll be the butt of jokes for 6 months from the GOP.  That'll last until they realize that they hate McCain.

    Two is do you really want to reward these craven jerks who are running things now? That's what an Obama presidency would be. Should Donna Brazile be rewarded? Dean? Pelosi? That's what voting for Obama would be. They treat us like a bunch of idiots already so would McCain treat us any less worse? I have my doubts.

    In the end it's really not going to be me or you that are going to be deciding. It's those working class voters who have already said they don't want Obama. Obama's lack of experience is a big point with a lot of people and it's something that he's not going to able to overcome. It's likely that he wouldn't win any age group over 40.

    [ Parent ]

    So far, McCain has not shown the same... (none / 0) (#153)
    by AX10 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 08:20:54 PM EST
    level of vitrol for us as have Obama and the DNC bosses.  McCain will be reaching out to the moderates.  The only way he can win is if he gets the moderates and dump the right wing.  The moderates wil decide the election.  Also, I do not believe that McCain has such horrid contempt for the moderates as Mr. Obama does.
    I'll be with you in the fall most likely.

    [ Parent ]
    Here's why McCain's election would be good for us (4.55 / 9) (#29)
    by mexboy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:19:52 PM EST
    It would teach the party bosses and the elite that we will not be taken for granted anymore.

    Sometimes you just have to hit bottom before you come to your senses.

    McCain was counted out, broke and with not chance of winning. Hillary is not out yet!

    [ Parent ]

    McCain is not the choice of the GOP elites. (none / 0) (#151)
    by AX10 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 08:17:29 PM EST
    either.  The GOP really wanted Romney.  That was not possible.  It would put the GOP in it's place too.
    The same goes for Hillary!

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by cawaltz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:01:19 PM EST
    They can still talk to the superdelegates and get Hillary in. Otherwise, I'll have to go with the saying "can't make all of the people happy, all the time." Rather than a default vote that I won't be proud of, I'll stay home.

    [ Parent ]
    If I had to be proud of every vote, (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:04:31 PM EST
    I wouldn't vote much. Choosing the lesser of evils is pretty common, and not as onerous as some of the pure make it out to be.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't consider myself a purist (5.00 / 10) (#16)
    by cawaltz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:09:14 PM EST
    which should make the Obama camp really concerned.

    I definitely have a practical streak.

    There does come a time though where you have to draw a line on priciple and the Obama camp has flirted with my particular line on a regular basis.

    Someone down thread put it pretty well.

    It's about respect, or the lack thereof. Don't spit on me and mine, denigrate what I believe and then expect me to meekly get in line. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

    [ Parent ]

    I expect that Hillary Clinton will ask you (none / 0) (#18)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:11:34 PM EST
    to vote for Obama in the fall. I hope you come to agree with her, as I do.

    [ Parent ]
    She can ask (5.00 / 11) (#37)
    by cawaltz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:26:08 PM EST
    Edwards, my first choice, already endorsed him and it didn't change how I felt at all. I, sadly, don't expect, that she will manage to change my opinion either.

    I can disagree with people and still respect them.(Something Obama's camp ought to learn).

    What I won't do is allow someone to profit off of disrespecting me and the things I believe.

    I expect that what was done to Clinton was done with the expectation of causing a visceral response. Sometimes you should be careful what you wish for. Furthermore, I see a troubling habit in the Obama camp of tossing folks under the bus in order to score political points. It's completely repulsive.

    [ Parent ]

    We aren't cultists (5.00 / 6) (#41)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:28:40 PM EST
    and Hillary isn't our leader.  

    What we're doing is beyond Hillary.  It's about getting presidential representation back.

    [ Parent ]

    It's a fight for the Dem Party! (5.00 / 7) (#54)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:36:48 PM EST
    The "new" Obama Dems have told the "old" Hillary Dems there is a needed change.  Come with us or stay behind.  I say, try and go anywhere without "us".

    [ Parent ]
    IMO change s needed (5.00 / 6) (#82)
    by cawaltz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:04:45 PM EST
    That said, I am not convinced that Obama is the kind of change that will be positive. I am not about to change something for the sake of changing it without some sort of understanding of what I am changing it too. When you ask Obama folks how he is going to change things, their answers are extremely vague. I don't like that. Even more concerning is that when you point out they are being vague, they generally insist you are being unreasonable for having some sort of expectation. They inist on "shouting down" anyone who doesnt fall in line to board the "Hope and Unity bus" It's reminiscent of playground bullying.

    [ Parent ]
    For me it's about disenfranchisement (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Eleanor A on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:07:16 PM EST
    "The rulz" aren't in the universe of a good enough reason to negate the actual votes of taxpaying American citizens.  

    As of right now, there is no solution.  I'm gonna hold out on making a judgment of what I'm going to do until I see what happens in MI/FL.

    However, my voting address is in TN (though I spend a lot of time in KY) and it is 100% impossible for Obama to win here...whether that's an ominous sign for Obama, I couldn't tell you, but I'd bet a significant sum he'll lose here by at least 12 points.

    So it doesn't really matter who I vote for.  I realize reasonable people can disagree, but I think Obama has no chance regardless of whether we all support him or not.  Independents will vote McCain in droves.

    It's too bad, but there you go.

    [ Parent ]

    Beyond good and evil is only evil (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Upstart Crow on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:46:20 PM EST
    To choose the lesser of two evils benefits evil.

    [ Parent ]
    If you only have 2 to choose from (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by befuddled on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:57:07 PM EST
    it benefits evil less to choose the lesser one. And if you have a choice of lawful evil or chaotic evil, you at least have a bargaining place to start with the lawful evil.

    [ Parent ]
    Not really (none / 0) (#146)
    by Upstart Crow on Mon May 26, 2008 at 08:01:14 PM EST
    No. It doesn't work that way. Sometimes you actually have to take a stand.

    As a practical matter, the constant choice of the lesser of two evils leads you to the evil you tried to avoid in the first place.

    It's not "rational," so perhaps you don't  understand it -- but I've observed this too many times in practice to be in denial about it.

    [ Parent ]

    Not really (none / 0) (#147)
    by Upstart Crow on Mon May 26, 2008 at 08:01:56 PM EST
    No. It doesn't work that way. Sometimes you actually have to take a stand.

    As a practical matter, the constant choice of the lesser of two evils leads you to the evil you tried to avoid in the first place.

    It's not "rational," so perhaps you don't  understand it -- but I've observed this too many times in practice to be in denial about it.

    [ Parent ]

    How many presidential elections (none / 0) (#55)
    by Boston Boomer on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:37:23 PM EST
    have you voted in?  


    [ Parent ]
    1, 2004. The only contest (none / 0) (#59)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:39:32 PM EST
    since I've been eligible. What's it to you?

    [ Parent ]
    I am saying this with respect (5.00 / 8) (#108)
    by Kathy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:33:00 PM EST
    so I hope you take it that way, but there are dems here who have been yellow dog dem all of their long lives, and we detest the direction in which Obama, Brazile, Dean, etc are trying to take the party.  Everything is cyclical, which is something you only really learn with age.  If some of us here feel it is time for us to take a principled stand and stop the direction that this party is going in, then we have that right.  We are the party of the working class.  We are not the party of elites.  We have been voting straight dem for DECADES, no matter how stupid or horrible the dem, and to get a lecture from you or anyone else that questions our party loyalty comes off as a tad insulting.  We LOVE the party; that is why we fear the changes that are happening.

    In the 1960s, the hippies and other kids were told that it was unpatriotic and unAmerican to challenge the government.  They were thought to be domestic terrorists for having peaceful sit-ins.  MLK was classified as an enemy of the government.  Civil Rights, Women's Rights--all of these issues were life and death.  People stood up and said their government was headed in the wrong direction.  They made sure their voices were heard.

    Change only happens when people demand it.  Sitting back and taking it, voting for the lesser of two evils, does not bring about change.  Making your voice heard, sending a message--that's change.

    But, again, I don't mean this as disrespectful to you, though I feel sometimes that doesn't go both ways.  I remember my righteous outrage at Nader voters back in 00, and how I railed about their stupidity and selfishness, but, ya know what?  Voting is a constitutional right.  If someone sees something wrong and their vote, or lack of vote, can change it, it is a fundamental right as a citizen of the United States to do something about it.

    [ Parent ]

    For many people I know it is not about punishing (5.00 / 8) (#23)
    by feet on earth on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:16:31 PM EST
    Obama, or even his supporter.  
    It is about punishing a party that
    1. betrayed the people's right to vote in a manner that counts,
    2. abounded the people's loyalty to basing social justice principles,
    3. abounded the grass-roots and their desire to have healthy and decent lives, and
    4. engaged in the disdain of blue collar workers

    all to embrace the dogmatic left intelligentsia with totalitarian attitudes and elitists forces.

    It is a class straggle and the party has chosen and is choosing the wrong side.  For many of my friends this new party it's not worth revenge or punishment or anything else either than the trash can.

    So the idea that McCain is scary or worst than Obama does not fly at all.  The analysis is that nether of them are worth sh1t.  

    It is the "Who cares anymore" that will ultimately make the Des and Obama lose.  

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, I think this is a point often lost (5.00 / 10) (#45)
    by Practically Lactating on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:30:12 PM EST
    For me at least, this is as much (if not moreso) a rejection of the current direction of the party as it is a rejection of Obama. He is a politician and will do what he can get away with, but I expect party leadership to reel him in if needed. They have not.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, as in any relationship, apathy (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by Cream City on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:39:13 PM EST
    by formerly Dem voters is to be feared more than anger, hate, or other emotions.  It's a much farther way back from apathy to get people involved again.

    I find that since declaring myself an Independent, there is a distancing that is coming that is much more comfortable than being part of the stoopid party going down again.  I'm not apathetic yet, by any means, but even distancing from the Dem party (not from Clinton, by any means) is sufficient for now.  

    We'll see whether the Dem party drives me to total apathy -- which always has infuriated me in others.  But I begin to understand, when no party wants me.  (Yes, before the automatic reply: They want my vote, but that's not the same.)

    [ Parent ]

    I never understood the apathy CC (none / 0) (#162)
    by Rainsong on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:43:50 PM EST
    Given the turnout numbers every election, that Great American Apathy Party is somewhat large.

    For me, Its not about Hillary, its about the Party.

    I never understood it before, until this year, when the apathetics said there was no difference. Been voting since 1976, but not this year and I have to agree with them, Obama is not the lesser of two evils for me. Its like choosing between very bad, and well - very bad too. Six of one, and half dozen, of the other.

    Unlike others, I think Obama can win with or without Clinton voters. Most people are just sheep and will do whatever they are told, and most will fall in behind Obama.

    Maybe the Party has been corrupt like that for years, but I never saw it before, and it was the just the higher-profile of this particular primary season that made it obvious to me, and I can no longer turn a blind eye to it.  

    [ Parent ]

    Class straggle? (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by lambertstrether on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:13:23 PM EST
    I like that. Maybe I'll use it. Perhaps we all need to go forward to something new, instead of backward (unless it be to the Federalist Papers).

    For my part (no link, sorry) I remember I think Shakes saying something like "Markets? Sure, they do terrible things, but we can mitigate them. But patriarchy? We don't know how to mitigate that at all. And that's the lesson of the misogyny in this campaign." Brutally paraphrasing, but that I agree with that.

    We've got class, race, sex/gender all mixed up in an unholy brew with multiple crises heading right at us... And I don't know what to do, but I do know that formulas like "the class straggle" are at best partial explanations and at worst make things a whole lot worse.

    [ Parent ]

    Punish the Democrats? (none / 0) (#107)
    by not the senator on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:28:55 PM EST
    Now you sound like a McCain troll just trying to stir up trouble. What Democrat would actually say the party has chosen the wrong side in a class struggle when the alternative is McCain and the Republicans?

    "Let's keep those Bush tax cuts and appoint rightwing judges, its good for the working class!"

    I ain't buying it.

    [ Parent ]

    Give me jobs, (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by feet on earth on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:55:37 PM EST
    mandatory health insurance,
    government run Social Security with NO privatization
    No bombing of Pakistan and no escalation of the war in Afghanistan
    No Bush/Cheney energy plan

    Then I may buy something with my vote. Now, not selling or buying anything.  A nice armchair comes November is all what I have stomach for.

    [ Parent ]

    Just because they aren't the GOP... (5.00 / 6) (#120)
    by Mike H on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:07:26 PM EST
    ...doesn't mean that these "new" Democrats are "good".

    You're making the mistaking of thinking that if you have two choices and one is bad, the other one must be good, or at least acceptable.

    For some of us it's down to two possibly equally bad choices, just bad for different reasons.

    "We're not the Republicans" is not enough of a platform to get ANY Democrat elected.  Period.

    [ Parent ]

    Who cares anymore is exactly right (none / 0) (#187)
    by lily15 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:45:59 PM EST
    If Obama gets the nomination, watch all the excitement evaporate.  Depression will set in. And many people will not care anymore.  The true Democrat will have been scuttled for an untested media creation by a weak elite Democratic party ruled by amoral morons who could care less about democratic principles or the will of the people.

    It is ironic that McCain was chosen democratically and is thus the most electable Republican while Obama, if the nominee, was chosen undemocratically, and is thus the least electable Democrat.

    [ Parent ]

    Enter McCain Stage Left (none / 0) (#189)
    by squeaky on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:07:27 AM EST
    If Obama gets the nomination, watch all the excitement evaporate.  Depression will set in. And many people will not care anymore

     Perfect antidote, I think it is called displacement.

    Works like a charm.

    [ Parent ]

    Tell that to dispaced workers, (none / 0) (#192)
    by feet on earth on Tue May 27, 2008 at 06:03:12 AM EST
    that will give them a meaningful job, with good wages and benefits. Or not.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry (none / 0) (#194)
    by squeaky on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:32:58 AM EST
    Anyone who believes that voting for Hillary, Obama or McCain

    will give them a meaningful job, with good wages and benefits.

    is beyond help.


    [ Parent ]

    Bill Clinton did. (none / 0) (#198)
    by feet on earth on Tue May 27, 2008 at 06:19:52 PM EST
    he economy boomed, there was a workers' market in many part of the country as opposed to an emplowers' market.

    Obama and McCain are equally bad when looking at them with the grass-roots blue collar lenses.

    You go worry about the judges and supreme court since it is quite clear you for your necessity covert and don't give a f--k about those who don't.

    Those who need a job to put food on the table, a roof on their head, etc., have little of no use for the platform presented by Obama or McCain.

    It is Hillery or nobody for me. I do not need your help, you do not have in your hart to give it.

    [ Parent ]

    But what if I feel that the party shoving Obama (5.00 / 12) (#68)
    by Anne on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:49:55 PM EST
    down my throat is punishing me AND the country?

    Do I not have a right to expect the party to stop working to engineer the nomination of the lesser candidate, to get out of the way and let the process play out as the voters decide?

    At what point did the DNC anoint itself the arbiter in place of the voters?  Because really, with where things are right now, the only reason to keep screwing around with FL and MI is to make sure that nothing messes with the Obama nomination.

    So, fine - if this is who the DNC wants, let them own it, all of it.  Let them be accountable for the blowback in Florida and Michigan.  Let them explain in the aftermath of an Obama defeat why they ignored every single sign that told them that is what would happen.

    Stop trying to hang the defeat of Barack Obama around our necks because we can't rationalize voting for the lesser candidate when there is an excellent one available.

    And if you are so afraid that Obama cannot defeat John McCain, then maybe you know in your heart of hearts that he really is a lousy candidate.

    Honestly, sometimes I think this spine-weakening syndrome is contagious.

    [ Parent ]

    The problem is (none / 0) (#73)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:54:24 PM EST
    that you're asking me for things I cannot give you. I did my part by voting for my chosen candidate in April. But my vote was insufficient to prevent the other candidate from winning.

    So the question of November arises. Which candidate is least bad? The answer is quite clear to me.

    [ Parent ]

    How do you define (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by pie on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:57:59 PM EST
    winning?

    The best qualified candidate needs to be the nominee.

    Otherwise, we lose.

    [ Parent ]

    Young people have shorter horizons (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by cymro on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:30:20 PM EST
    I think the difference between you and some of the older commenters here (myself included) is that you want short-term results whereas we don't expect anything of importance to be decided in the short-term. So you tend to view the '08 election as a crucial election for Democrats, while we tend to view it just another election.

    Thus you conclude that electing another Republican will be a disaster for Democrats in the short term, which you value highly. We, on the other hand, conclude that teaching the DNC a lesson would be a good thing for Democrats in the long term, which we value more highly than any short-term (and likely, short-lived) "success".  

    [ Parent ]

    cymro (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Kathy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:48:14 PM EST
    good point.  I remember when folks told me stuff like this that I was always highly insulted, because they were basically telling me (in my opinion) that I did not know my own mind.  Please note to the younger folk here that we are not saying that.  We are just saying that while we do not agree with your opinion, we respect it.  We would like the same courtesy in return, but maybe that just takes time.

    Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry...these were some hard lessons to learn.  Some of us feel it's time to teach the party a lesson.

    [ Parent ]

    More a "learning moment" than a lesson (none / 0) (#173)
    by Valhalla on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:48:43 PM EST
    This is what one of the buzzword mavens at my work says.

    I agree with the differing points of view on time.  I was crushed and depressed for weeks when Dukakis lost, it seemed as if the world ended.  Well, it didn't.  I won't vote for McCain, but in the long term a bad Republican president for 4 years may be better for the Democratic Party and the interests it is supposed to represent than 4 years of a bad Democrat in office.  Or not even bad, just weak.

    Others have expressed this better but I will have no guilt and nothing to answer for if I stay home in November and McCain wins, for two reasons.  First, the DNC and all its members have a chance to nominate the most electible person.  That is Clinton.  If they fail to do that, then a McCain win is on them, not me.

    Second, I have always voted Democrat, even when the candidate in the primaries I favored didn't get the nom.  But those candidates never, ever derided my interests or sat by laughing while the tsunami of misogyny was unleashed.  They may have had different priorities than I did, but they did not denigrate my priorities.  (and, btw, they didn't act like I owed them my vote, either).

    [ Parent ]

    That would depend (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by stxabuela on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:53:15 PM EST
    upon the state in which one resides.  I will NEVER vote for McCain, but I may well skip the race or vote for a 3rd-party female.  TX is not in play.  Those living in other than bright red states have a much more difficult decision to make.    

    [ Parent ]
    ayup (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Kathy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:37:46 PM EST
    I am in bright red Georgia, so I have the luxury of saying I will not vote for Obama.  As I have said many times before, I might look at things differently if I were in a swing state, but I am not.

    I can easily cast a protest vote without knowing that it might actually matter in the scheme of things.

    I can also stop sending money to the dem party, which I did around Feb.  I have been giving money to them since I was sixteen years old--no joke--so this was a very hard thing for me to do.

    [ Parent ]

    How many people did Obama FIRE (none / 0) (#166)
    by Exasperated on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:54:56 PM EST
    For people on his campaign talking out their butthole, Obama was swift and decisive about how one was to treat another person.

    And now you want to besmirch the record with bile.

    Punish Who?

    Obama?

    For, what? Caring?

    Worthless devils advocate drivel.

    [ Parent ]

    By your own logic, then he should FIRE himslf. (none / 0) (#193)
    by feet on earth on Tue May 27, 2008 at 06:09:08 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Headlines are Drivel (none / 0) (#200)
    by Exasperated on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:50:52 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Drivel this: (none / 0) (#201)
    by feet on earth on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:18:32 AM EST
    When cannot defend, then offend. Is that why your handle is Exasperated? eh!

    [ Parent ]
    I put 98% of the blame on obama and many (5.00 / 16) (#3)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:51:28 PM EST
    of his supporters.  He is all about dividing, not bringing coalitions together.  My hope is that people are smart enough to send him back home to Chicago.

    Additionally (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by lilburro on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:55:04 PM EST
    I think if you consider one of his supporters to be the media, you have a big problem on your hands.  I know it may not necessarily be fair to conflate the two.  But consider this:  on TV news this weekend, the story of the Obama campaign forwarding Keith Olbermann's comment to superdelegates has been repeated.  If a Clinton voter sees this story, and watches the KO piece, what can they conclude?  The Obama campaign endorses the treatment of Hillary by the media.  I'm sure the Clinton campaign has shown news articles and such to the superdelegates.  But the sort of cause-effect of this weekend's RFK comment brings the Obama campaign schmoozingly close to the media.  And to win a Clinton voter, that might not be where you want to be.  And of course John McCain is so cool with the media they'd hardly notice him using the anger of these voters against the media to his advantage...

    SO (1.00 / 2) (#167)
    by Exasperated on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:58:46 PM EST
    You'd like to have someone wish YOU to be assassinated and then think the whole thing was just a joke?

    Depends upon what IS, IS, people. There are no wording mistakes in the Clinton Campaign, people.

    a response to yet more Devil's advocate drizzle drivel.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama....I have had enough already!! (5.00 / 9) (#7)
    by Mrwirez on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:57:00 PM EST
    I keep arguing these same points over and over to the Obamabots. Quit rubbing it in and quit being jerks. I have been called an a$$hole, a racist, stupid, etc. and my GF has been called a c*nt, for supporting Hillary. My Hillary Clinton yard sign was burned over night last week and I am in a very rural area. Is this how team Obama gets things done, by violence and threats and alienating 49.98% of the Democratic party?? They WILL not even win a runner up trophy. I have found Obama's surrogates AND supporters to be arrogant, condescending JERKS.

    That is the general feeling I get everywhere in Pittsburgh. The few people I know that would vote for Obama love him....The rest will vote McCain no matter what and want to push Obama out like he did to the Clintons... Like a revenge vote.

    Obama signs can be in yards (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Cream City on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:41:09 PM EST
    in my neighborhood -- a very nice one -- but we with Clinton signs have learned they will be vandalized.  I keep mine inside a window now, although I fully expect to have to clean or replace the window.  

    [ Parent ]
    That's obscene (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by lambertstrether on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:14:40 PM EST
    What next?

    [ Parent ]
    Yeh, and there's lots of libruls here (none / 0) (#99)
    by Cream City on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:21:16 PM EST
    in a neighborhood said to be stuck in the '60s -- and we say we like it that way!

    Well, not anymore, not me.  And of course, none of my stuck-in-the-'60s ex-hippie neighbors seem to have heard Obama diss that era as "excessive."  Apparently the local latte libruls (yes, there's a Starbucks but blocks away) went to too many rock concerts and got hard of hearing at an early age.  So they don't hear their lil darlings sneaking out of their houses -- I see them -- at night, the ones I suspect of doing the vandalism.  It happened in past, too, but never as much as this year.

    [ Parent ]

    It's not good for the gander either (none / 0) (#168)
    by Exasperated on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:04:04 PM EST
    You know, this happened to some friends of mine too, but the sign was an Obama sign.

    I have anecdotes of HRC supporters being rude, condescending vandals too.

    You know, if we both stuck our feet out, we'd be wearing two shoes.

    -Yet another response to our shortsighted ways.

    [ Parent ]

    Alert! FL + MI = HRC nets 110 pledged delegates! (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by mkb662 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:00:14 PM EST
    Do not believe the Obamabots.  Should the DNC choose not to punish the voters of FL + MI, HRC can net at least 110 delegates.  See proposal of Lanny Davis at http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10614.html

    If HRC wins the popular vote by June 3, the DNC decision can make this a toss-up.  Help out in Puerto Rico, SD, and Montana.  Keep fighting!  Big Tent Democrat / Jeralyn, please read the Lanny story that was posted just now.  Happy holiday.

    I didn't know of the Delaware precedent (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Cream City on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:47:44 PM EST
    for a revote when it went too early with it primary -- that ought to have come out sooner, if we had a media that did any research at all.

    The rest of your link also seems very well argued, at least to me, although I'm no lawyer.  So it would be good to see what Jeralyn, BTD, and other legal type say to it.  For now, I'm bookmarking it -- no doubt to see how far Prima Donna, Dean, et al., stray from fairness in their decision this week.  Thanks for a good find!

    [ Parent ]

    I'm not sure it's irrational (5.00 / 24) (#11)
    by Upstart Crow on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:01:55 PM EST
    I've been insulted, ridiculed and had hate speech hurled at me during this election. All for supporting the candidate of my choice.

    You're giving me a choice between my self-interest and my self-respect.

    I choose my self-respect.

    (By the by, regarding the Krugman article: Obama suggested Clinton be allowed the "bragging rights" of getting a majority. Funny. Getting a majority used to be called a mandate. By this very party.)

    But The Hate Speech (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by squeaky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:24:01 PM EST
    Directed at you, albeit indirectly, by wingnuts, white supremecists,  
    mysoginists, racists, and all the other hatemongers that are blasting their messages 24/7, has no effect? Hmmmmm why is that? Most of them if not all of them, and there are quite a few, are GOP supporters. Why no visceral reaction to them, as their hate is exponential compared to the Obama supporters that have pissed you off? And yes they hate Hillary too.

    I do not get it, any dispassionate view has Obama and Hillary as almost identical, and both are diametrically opposite to McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    It's obvious. It's always more painfulwh (5.00 / 6) (#70)
    by Cream City on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:53:12 PM EST
    when it comes from within, from those you thought were your friends -- or in this case, from those you thought were fellow "progressives" who also supported the Dem party principles and platform.  That platform includes, for example, a plank on women's issues . . . but watching the leading liberal blog that shall go unnamed go against that plank was the beginning of the end.  And now, they and their candidate pushed us to the end of the plank.

    But it turns out there were lifeboats below, and the water is nice and warm.  Who knew?  Come on in -- and it's better to jump, before you're pushed!

    [ Parent ]

    Hey! I'm not voting McCain (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Upstart Crow on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:55:52 PM EST
    And no, I haven't had any hate speech directed at me from the parties you mention -- or at least, not nearly the amount I have had directed at me by the party I have supported for 30 years.

    I'll vote for Green, or Gus Hall, or write-in. Or I'll walk the dog that night.

    I'm tired of being threatened with bad things if I don't do thus-and-so.  Bad things have already happened to me, but you didn't notice!

    [ Parent ]

    Your fractured soul could take a breather (none / 0) (#170)
    by Exasperated on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:16:02 PM EST
    Then go vote Democratic.

    No one has left you behind. It's been a painful race.

    This is all truly awe inspiring that we are trying to extricate the wounds we have had for more than half out country's life.

    You know, a lot of people died right here in America to give us the right to choose what to do with our vote...and to give many of us the right to vote at all.

    It isn't pretty, but it's what we have. Not everybody is a jerk.

    I'm not a jerk, I'm just exasperated. If we want to change the plan, let's do so when we get a Democrat in the Office.

    McCain will never change the rules and we'll keep right on getting squeezed out of the picture.

    It's not even an, "at least Obama won't blah blah," argument.

    This crap is all what we make of it, because we are sitting in a very good place right now. It is fear that makes this stuff unbearable.

    [ Parent ]

    The key word here is ... (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by DavMD on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:13:52 PM EST
    dispassionate !!

    "I do not get it, any dispassionate view has Obama and Hillary as almost identical, and both are diametrically opposite to McCain."

    How many of those views have you seen around here lately?

    [ Parent ]

    Indeed (4.20 / 5) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:20:05 PM EST
    That is hard to argue against. But I will try during the GE.

    [ Parent ]
    With apparently no help (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:31:00 PM EST
    from Obama and crew.

    How long do you think it will take for them to realize that this is a problem?

    [ Parent ]

    Probably after they stop slinging (none / 0) (#128)
    by oculus on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:20:37 PM EST
    the mud, which hasn't happened yet.  

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#171)
    by Exasperated on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:18:19 PM EST
    Apparently no one told you  that no one was attacking you.

    How dirty are your hands?

    You make great mud-pies it seems.

    Yet another response to preemptive mud slinging.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, I must disagree. I check the (none / 0) (#185)
    by oculus on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:44:14 PM EST
    FP and diaries at DK from time to time.  No let-up yet.  

    [ Parent ]
    boehlert wins the award (5.00 / 10) (#13)
    by Turkana on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:03:37 PM EST
    for coining the most important new political term, this campaign season- post-parsing. what you highlight is benen doing exactly that. the shrillosphere takes clinton's statements out of context, twists them into outrageous phrasings she neither used nor intended, then acts as if these invented outrages are part of a pattern, almost all of which were also invented.  

    BNut it is worse than that (5.00 / 5) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:13:01 PM EST
    Bene is lying in his post parsing as Ezra Klein did.

    See they do not give a sh*t about counting the votes in FL and MI so to them anyone who does is a toxic liar.

    To be honest, it is the Klein/Marshall/Benen schtick I really detest the most.

    Aravosis I have more respect for. His insane hatred is honest at least.

    [ Parent ]

    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by andgarden on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:15:24 PM EST
    The purest examples of WWTSBQ come from Americablog, if not always Aravosis.

    The muddy middle, where people lie and pretend to be reasonable, is the most annoying. Benen comes off like David Broder here.

    [ Parent ]

    HAHAHA! (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:30:54 PM EST
    Aravosis is insane!  ;)

    [ Parent ]
    Aravosis (none / 0) (#52)
    by pie on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:34:01 PM EST
    is a former republican.

    But he's now seen the light?

    heh.

    [ Parent ]

    Not unlike (none / 0) (#117)
    by oldpro on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:56:23 PM EST
    our former friend Kos.

    What is it about converts that makes them so wacky and fanatical?  I noticed the same thing about a good many Catholic converts of my acquaintence.  They are hardest, of course, on those of us who recovered before they ever joined up.

    [ Parent ]

    post-parsing (none / 0) (#22)
    by Turkana on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:16:03 PM EST
    usually includes a degree of lying, although cds/oc probably does cause many to actually believe even their own lies.

    [ Parent ]
    Reason, not emotion (5.00 / 8) (#14)
    by livesinashoe on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:04:07 PM EST
    My choice of Hillary over Obama is NOT emotional.  I happen to think she's the better choice.  I think Obama is a dismal choice.  If it comes down to McCain or Obama, I will vote for the better candidate based on who I think will be better for America.

    I will NOT vote based on emotion.

    Give this woman some credit for being a rational being.

    Winning means (5.00 / 6) (#36)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:26:06 PM EST