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The Day After: Florida And Michigan

As I have stated repeatedly for a month now, it is my view that Barack Obama will almost certainly be the Democratic nominee. And it is time Barack Obama starts acting like he believes that. That means doing things that will help him win in November. I have talked about his need to unify the Democratic Party, address his problems with working class voters of all stripes (except African Americans of course) and, the issue of the upcoming week - show respect to the voters of Florida and Michigan. Today, John Dickerson writes:

The math is relentless, yet Obama hasn't won yet, and Hillary Clinton shows no sign of stopping. She will travel to Florida on Wednesday to argue that he wants to win the nomination by disenfranchising the state's Democratic primary voters, a visit that can only damage him in a swing state crucial to Obama's chances in November.

(Emphasis supplied.) [More . . .]

Here is a problem Barack Obama can remedy immediately - he can join Hillary Clinton in fighting for the seating of the Florida and Michigan delegations, based on their 2.3 million votes. Dickerson and every other pundit has told us that it does not matter how Florida and Michigan are seated, Hillary can not win. Fine. Then why in blazes does not Barack Obama join Hillary Clinton in fighting to seat those delegates? Today Barack Obama is dead in the water politically in Florida. The first step to a political resurrection in Florida for Barack Obama begins by his fighting to seat the Florida delegation. Not to negotiate to maybe, sort of, ALLOW some delegates. He should be fighting to seat them.

The response you hear from Obama supporters is that oh no, this will wreck the Presidential primary calendar. Assume that is true for a moment, and I do not, who gives a darn about the outrageous, unfair and ridiculous Democratic nomination process which needs to be completely overhauled anyway? But even if you do care, can anyone possibly think it is more important than winning the Presidency this Fall?

It is PAST time to stop feeding the megalomania of Donna Brazile and past time to start working to winning what matters, not Donna Brazile's silly political butter knife fights, rather the Presidency.

If Barack Obama can not stand up to Donna Brazile, how will he be able to stand up to the Republican onslaught this Fall and all the other challenges he will face should he become President?

It is it time to take a stand on Florida and Michigan, Senator Obama. Fight for those states. It is the right thing to do and the smart thing to do.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

Comments closed

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  • Display: Sort:
    The reason why he won't (5.00 / 10) (#1)
    by MonaL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:50:02 AM EST
    fight to seat FL & MI is because he's afraid of the perception of her winning the popular vote.

    And because he knows (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by stillife on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:04:21 AM EST
    he's got the backing of the DNC.  IMO.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually He Out To Run The DNC (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by talex on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:24:54 AM EST
    NEDRA PICKLER
    AP News
    May 20, 2008 21:00 EST

    Barack Obama is quietly planning to take over the Democratic National Committee and assemble a multistate team for the general election, the latest sign that he is putting rival Hillary Rodham Clinton and the nomination fight behind him.

    Top Obama organizer Paul Tewes is in discussions to run the party, several Democratic officials said Tuesday.


    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080521/ap_on_el_pr/obama_nomination_plans

    As a control freak Obama is going to make Bush look like a piker.

    Already we have Obama telling his supporters to not contribute and support 527's like VoteVets and David Brock's Progressive Media USA. And now this DNC takeover. And you know what? The Obamabots at OpenLeft and elsewhere are eating it up.

    [ Parent ]

    oh fer f-sakes (5.00 / 7) (#119)
    by Kathy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:41:47 AM EST
    But Obama can't afford to move too quickly toward the general election, or he will risk alienating Clinton supporters who are already emotional about the likelihood of their chosen candidate's closely fought defeat.

    "emotional"  Yeah, we're just a bunch of silly women.  Why don't they just lobotomize us and get it over with?

    [ Parent ]

    Well,I'm emotional (5.00 / 4) (#134)
    by Nadai on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:50:14 AM EST
    Unfortunately for Obama, the emotion is sheer, unadulterated fury.  And if he thinks I'm going to get over it and vote for his sorry a$$, he's a fool.  I write my sh!t list in indelible ink.

    [ Parent ]
    Well at least we have that excuse (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by angie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:27:46 PM EST
    have you seen the instability among his blogger boiz? Not exactly stoic figures they.

    [ Parent ]
    i am afraid (none / 0) (#47)
    by sancho on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:15:08 AM EST
    you are right. who knows if was obama's or edwards' or dean's idea for them to come off the ballot in michigan?

    [ Parent ]
    From What I Read It Was Obama's Idea (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:21:04 AM EST
    and he convinced Edwards and others to follow him.

    [ Parent ]
    Perception? (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:21:55 AM EST
    The total numbers of popular votes including FL and MI are more than perception.

    [ Parent ]
    she already won the popular vote (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by nycvoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:26:44 AM EST
    it's not a perception.  Just because the DNC stripped delegates doesn't mean people didn't vote.  

    His choice in Michigan was to not allow the people of Michigan the opportunity to vote for him.  That's his problem

    [ Parent ]

    I think the ONLY reason he will not do it (none / 0) (#194)
    by angie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:25:17 PM EST
    is because he is not at all Presidential -- not the least little bit.

    [ Parent ]
    Gosh (5.00 / 12) (#2)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:50:27 AM EST
    Just like all those voters who would never have realized Obama has a lack of national security experience if Hillary hadn't run that 3am ad, apparently Florida voters never would have thought to hold the primary debacle against Obama without Hillary raising the point.

    It's rather amazing how everything is Hillary's fault.

    Well Steve if there is something I have learned (5.00 / 12) (#9)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:56:19 AM EST
    this primary season (Thanks to the Obama Campaign and friends) it is that:
    1. Everything that is wrong with this Country can be traced to the Bill Clinton Administration.
    2. The Republicans are the ones with the Ideas.
    3. The Clintons and anyone who sides with them are racist.
    4. It's Hillary's fault;
    5. The new Democratic party doesn't need any voter who does not drink the kool aid. (the list of who those are is too long to enumerate.)
    I could go on but I think you can get the point.

    [ Parent ]
    Excellent points (5.00 / 8) (#35)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:08:54 AM EST
    this primary season (Thanks to the Obama Campaign and friends) it is that:

       1. Everything that is wrong with this Country can be traced to the Bill Clinton Administration.
       2. The Republicans are the ones with the Ideas.
       3. The Clintons and anyone who sides with them are racist.
       4. It's Hillary's fault;
       5. The new Democratic party doesn't need any voter who does not drink the kool aid. (the list of who those are is too long to enumerate.)

    I could go on but I think you can get the point.

    So, since this has been his theme, please tell me why I SHOULDN'T vote for Republicans?  He's telling me Clintons = bad and Republicans  = ideas.  Why should I vote for him when I can go to the source?

    [ Parent ]

    I agree it makes it hard to understand (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:18:50 AM EST
    how they expect us to vote Democrat.  Personally I am scared of McBush being president but then as I have said before I have gone from being certain I would vote for the Democratic nominee to I would probably vote for Obama if he is the nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    another Republican heard from (1.00 / 2) (#32)
    by seesdifferent on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:06:05 AM EST
    I'm sure you're very invested in helping the Democrats win in November.

    [ Parent ]
    Hey it's the Obama supporters who have been (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:15:46 AM EST
    using the Republican talking points against the Clintons from the beginning of the primary season.  I was Obama who said that the Republicans were the ones with the ideas and has talked of using them for foreign affairs positions and defense.  He is the one who admires Reagan and lumps the Clinton administration with the Bush administration and tops it of with the anti Health Care ad he resurrected from the 90's to attack Hillary's plan.  If anyone sounds like a Republican.........

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:20:41 AM EST
    Take it from me, you can be committed to supporting Obama if he is the nominee and still believe he has run a primary campaign that has been very unfavorable towards not only the Clinton legacy but also the Democratic brand as a whole.

    I don't think criticizing Obama's campaign or his message makes one a Republican.

    [ Parent ]

    Another Obama Supporter Trying To Make (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:37:43 AM EST
    sure Clinton supporters do not vote for Obama in November. Please look up the word counterproductive because clearly you do not understand that that your remarks are precisely that.

    [ Parent ]
    Better to see straight (none / 0) (#181)
    by Nike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:47:54 PM EST
    off that the Democratic party as currently construed by Donna ("I owe most to white male Repulicans") Brazille does not want the votes of Floridians. Voting for democrats in the past has been a moral and ethical commitment for me. I feel fairly strongly that Donna Brazille, Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, and Barack Obama have worked relentlessly to strip that away. The Democrat-elites, in a bitter racial irony, are perpetrating a vicious voter disenfrancisement initiative that runs counter to fifty years of hard fought efforts by true Democrats to expand the franchise. I expect to be voting on economic issues now since Obama is not giving me any moral leadership.

    [ Parent ]
    Everything is Hillary's fault :) (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:28:11 AM EST
    That's actually a compliment. It's amazing how much power they have assigned to her.

    If she's hurting Obama, that's a shame. But, what she's doing is best for the democratic party and for the country. Without this race, the serious weaknesses in the party system would not be changed (fixing this system will make it easier for the next trailblazers). If she succeeds at getting the nomination (my greatest hope), that will be great for everyone.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with most of your comments-except (5.00 / 9) (#3)
    by kenosharick on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:51:16 AM EST
    you keep saying Obama must "fight" to get Fla/Mich seated. He never needed to fight- he only needed to give the word weeks ago and they would be seated.

    "seated" (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by TheRealFrank on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:56:17 AM EST
    Beware of the verb "to seat" in this context.

    People who don't think that Michigan and Florida should count, use the word to describe a process in which the delegates from those states can be "seated" after the nominee has been voted on.

    To avoid confusion, we should be using different words, like "their votes should count".


    [ Parent ]

    Be careful of the term "vote", too. (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by Shainzona on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:04:22 AM EST
    I have seen a suggestion that the MI and FLA delegates will be seated (so they can play with the conventioneers) but only vote on rule changes - not the POTUS nominee.

    So not only must they be allowed to vote - they must be allowed to vote for the POTUS nominee.

    AND, they must be seated now - not after Dean and Brazile have stolen this thing from the voters.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD, I wish you would stop (5.00 / 19) (#4)
    by Kathy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:51:53 AM EST
    saying what Obama should do and ask why he's not doing it.  It's not that I don't agree with you that the problem should be handled yesterday, but it's to the point now where we have to ask why Obama is so h*llbent on ignoring this issue.

    There must be a solid reason for him to be fighting so hard to keep these states out of play in the race for the nomination.  Is the popular vote metric that much more important?

    And I think it is far to late for Obama to heal any rifts in these states, especially FL.  There are protests all around the country going on (I think) tomorrow about the media sexism and about the situation with FL and MI.  Obama has let this problem sit out there so long that it's starting to be defined as another example of his sexism toward Clinton.

    It is an absolute mess.  What does he think he is gaining?

    Good that you bring this up now (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by talex on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:04:09 AM EST
    because if Obama gets the nomination these kind of questions will likely not be welcomed on pro-Clinton blogs that will turn into pro-Obama blogs.

    Only after he either loses in November or his win brings Post-Partisan Triangulating Blue Dog policies will holding Obama and his supporters accountable be in vogue again.

    [ Parent ]

    Why is he doing it? (5.00 / 0) (#73)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:25:04 AM EST
    Because he is the weaker candidate and he's hanging on to the possibility of the nomination.  It's a squeaker and he doesn't want superdeez to have any wiggle room.

    If you didn't see Lanny Davis on Fox last night, it is up over at noquarter.  It's a great clip.

    Lanny Davis

    My favorite.... it's going to convention if F:/MI aren't dealt with fairly.

    I have been paying attention to Fox's approach (who's independent/Dem viewership has continued to grow) and they are using Obama's and the media's treatment of Clinton against Obama and the DNC.

    [ Parent ]

    How is this sexism? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Just another person on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:58:30 AM EST
    that it's starting to be defined as another example of his sexism toward Clinton.

    I believe that there has been sexism both from the Obama campaign and the media in this primary. However, how does not seating FL/MI amount to sexism? It's just dirty politics that the Republicans played back when giving us Bush and now being played by the Obama campaign to give us Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    You know, it's precisely like global warming. (none / 0) (#81)
    by BoGardiner on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:27:07 AM EST
    It's entirely unscientific to point to any single extreme weather event and claim, "Look!  Global warming!"  

    So, technically, you're correct that this one point in isolation seemingly is unrelated to sexism.

    It's the PATTERN over TIME.

    By now it should be apparent to all that a pattern of sexism is partially fueling many persons' psychology as they eagerly seek to force out the stronger of the two Democratic candidates.

    So, as with storm events, one can say that this type of tactic is what the pattern predicts should occur, and is therefore significantly likely to be a symptom of that pattern.

    Or use the shorthand you're criticizing, since this is just a dang blog.

    [ Parent ]

    Reread what I wrote (none / 0) (#88)
    by Kathy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:29:09 AM EST
    it's being defined as sexism.  I didn't say whether it was or not.  This is just another example of Obama not defining himself or his actions, thus allowing others to define his stance for him.

    [ Parent ]
    Ah gotcha. Thanks (none / 0) (#137)
    by Just another person on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:53:06 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It really makes me wonder (none / 0) (#112)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:38:56 AM EST
    if Axelrod is running this show by telling Obama to just get out there and do what he does "so well" and talk about anything to reel in the audiences, and leave the FL & MI vote issues to him (and Howard and Donna - we've got you covered).  

    NOTE: This is exactly why the message that Hillary will have stolen the nomination from Obama if she wins at convention. It's what he's been up to all along.

    Barack has openly stated he is a lazy man, and his work history supports that fact. He gets to looking more and more like GWB every day.

    He's in FL today asking them to support him in the fall...primary is over (according to FOX News).  BUT, last night's showing in Iowa was NOT a victory speech.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD, I Think (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by creeper on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:52:05 AM EST
    you're asking more of Mr. Obama than he is capable of.

    Remember, this man has never run a truly contested contest.  His method of winning is pretty much slash and burn, right down to having his opponents removed from the ballot.

    This is one reason why Clinton supporters are so deathly afraid of Obama as the nominee.  His election mindset is going to backfire badly in the GE.

    Obama's media darling status (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by felizarte on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:23:57 AM EST
    may not be such an asset for him after all.  With all the piling on on Hillary in the MSM, why does she keep on winning and with such victories too?  I think it is obvious that a majority of the people have tuned out  the media bias for Obama and actually understand the issues and Hillary's stand on those issues appeal to the individual voters.

    So if the only reason one supports Obama is because of his present "media darling status," that might not be so valid anymore in light of Hillary's successses.  

    [ Parent ]

    Anyone know (none / 0) (#151)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:06:19 PM EST
    How the major networks' ratings have gone during this primary season?

    [ Parent ]
    I have thru April 4 (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:31:45 PM EST
    Haven't been updating my numbers.

    Here's percent of total 5-11pm:

        1/21/08    2/8/08    2/15/08    2/22/08    2/29/08
    cnn    0.48    0.30        0.23       0.26        0.31
    fnc    0.26    0.33        0.34       0.32        0.33
    hln    0.12    0.15        0.17       0.13        0.14
    msnbc    0.14    0.22       0.25    0.28       0.22

        3/7/08    3/14/08    3/21/08    3/28/08    4/4/08
    cnn    0.26    0.26        0.26       0.29    0.28
    fnc    0.37    0.41        0.32       0.36    0.35
    hln    0.16    0.13        0.14       0.14    0.17
    msnbc    0.21    0.20        0.27       0.20    0.20

    numbers from mediabistro.  I pull days as the weeklies are in document format and not cells that can be copied in to excel.


    [ Parent ]

    Wow! (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:52:01 PM EST
    So the networks ARE feeling the effects of anointing Obama too soon!

    We need to keep up the boycott - I'd love to see MSNBC with a .10 or less!

    [ Parent ]

    maybe not (none / 0) (#23)
    by TalkRight on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:03:08 AM EST
    you're asking more of Mr. Obama than he is capable of.

    No he is just trying O to hire him as an adviser. :)

    [ Parent ]

    that won't happen. btd has common (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:30:01 PM EST
    sense and a realistic point of view.

    [ Parent ]
    Forget the Obama maniacs (5.00 / 15) (#6)
    by andgarden on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:54:06 AM EST
    The refusal of the Obama campaign to do this strikes me as an implicit admission that they believe they might not be able to win nomination with MI and Fl seated.

    As always, they are playing to win the primary first. There is no November strategy.

    Which, in a race this close, makes sense. (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by sweetthings on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:57:00 AM EST
    You can't be President if you aren't the nominee. Hillary and Obama are both playing for all the marbles. Neither will sacrifice any advantage until they've won.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by TalkRight on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:58:40 AM EST
    BTD may believe but BO does not .. nor do Axelrod and O's supporters.. They KNOW with Clinton's anything can happen.. NEVER COUNT THEM OUT!!

    I was also wondering on other days after his primary wins and even big losses he would come out with couple of New Super Delegates to his side.. NOT Today.. has his reserve ended.. has he used his capital of SDs.

    I still think Hillary has a conceivable shot at the nomination.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by chancellor on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:02:31 AM EST
    I think that both the DNC and Obama's campaign assumed the contest would be over on Super Tuesday. They also both assumed that any Democrat could win this year against the Bush legacy. There is no Plan B.

    [ Parent ]
    Sure there is. (4.20 / 5) (#19)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:01:39 AM EST
    According to my dad (who has decades of experience working for the government), the plan is to get HRC and Bill out there working their hearts out for Obama to get those racist hillbillies [this is what my dad thinks] to vote for him.

    He sees nothing wrong with this picture whatsoever. We can't nominate Hillary because she is not "inspiring" enough to get people to work against their self-interest. Plus, she's despicable because she will "do and say anything to win."

    Meanwhile, Obama is a super-secret progressive who once nominated, will suddenly "inspire" people to accept all of his progressive ideas. Just like FDR or JFK.

    The evidence for this point of view was somehow not forthcoming.

    It really, really makes me sick how some Obamaniacs think it is OK to sh*t all over the Clintons, then fully expect them to turn around and try to get people to vote for the sh*ttees.

    The sad thing is, I'll bet they'd do it, and Obama would still lose, and the Obamaniacs would blame the Clintons.

    Sigh.

    [ Parent ]

    Throwing Bill Clinton (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by rnibs on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:13:23 AM EST
    out the window in 2000 hurt Gore, and I think disrespecting the Clintons in 2008 will end the same way.  Not that I think the Clintons are all powerful or anything, but when you have good people like them, why do Donna and the other Dems insist on constantly throwing them out the window, and then expect to win the general election?

    [ Parent ]
    20M voters (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:51:06 AM EST
    and, who knows how many non-voters, agree that the Clinton's deserve to keep the respect they earned giving 8 pretty good years to this country. For Obama to strip them of what is rightfully theirs, will bite him hard in the fall.

    I'm assuming he won't win the GE if he does get the nomination. And, the loss will leave him with his political legacy of unfair and disrespectful. He may get away with just a dusting of his antics at the moment, but the claims against him now will be fodder for future campaign analysis. He'll never be able to get too far away. Karma, you know.

    You'll notice the MSM has spent plenty of time analyzing the failed campaigns of the democrats, and not much on the wins.


    [ Parent ]

    Excellent point (none / 0) (#153)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:07:57 PM EST
    Ignoring Bill Clinton cost Gore the election.  Now Obama has been dissing the Clinton years.  Doesn't seem like a winner to me....

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:14:28 AM EST
    I had a great conversation yesterday with our office wingnut who is convinced that Obama is a "Manchurian candidate" with radical, anti-Israel ideas and that we'll see the mask come off if he gets elected.

    So look at it this way, your dad has company in believing that Obama has a liberal agenda that he's keeping under wraps!  Well, sort of.

    [ Parent ]

    As is? No penalties at all? (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by mike in dc on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:56:00 AM EST
    No apportionment of the MI uncommitteds?
    Would Clinton do that in his situation?

    I think he legitimately believes the outcome of those two primaries was not accurate (because no campaigning was permitted and he wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan), and therefore legitimately believes that seating those delegations in their entirety, based solely on those votes, would be unfair.  There were supporters of all three major candidates who stayed home because they were told it wouldn't count, Democrats and Dem-leaning independents in Michigan who voted in the Republican primary there to make a little mischief, and all of their preferences of course weren't reflected in the vote.

    Having said that, I have no problem with seating all pledged delegates and superdelegates in their entirety, provided that Obama is assigned the bulk(if not all) of the uncommitted Michigan superdelegates, since exit polling suggests about 70% of the uncommitted voters would have supported him if his name were on the ballot.  That is the bare minimum "compromise" required to make such a seating legitimate in my eyes(and in the eyes of many Obama supporters).  Award Obama at least 70% of the 55, or at least 38.  That's it.  Then Clinton can get her 178 pledged delegates and Obama will get at least 105.

    Supporting the full seating of FL and MI does not require a complete capitulation to the terms of Team Clinton by Team Obama.  
    I hope that's not what you're suggesting.


    Obama advertised heavily in FL (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by MarkL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:59:09 AM EST
    He's got no business making the argument you propose, at least wrt to FL.
    I think the reasonable solution for MI is to give Hillary her delegates and let the rest be uncommitted. They will almost surely go to Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    What does it hurt (3.00 / 0) (#101)
    by standingup on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:35:49 AM EST
    to go with Obama receiving the uncommitted in Michigan or at least the portion that were shown to have voted uncommitted for him according to the exit polls?  The point is to do what the Democratic party once was known to do in the pursuit of supporting voter enfranchisement instead of this silly idea of punishing the people for the rank stupidity of their political leaders.  We should do what is possible to accept the will of the voters regardless of benefit or detriment to either candidate.  Stop the pettiness and move on so we can finally have a resolution that will end this political ping pong match.  

    [ Parent ]
    LOL (1.00 / 0) (#50)
    by flyerhawk on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:16:09 AM EST
    The "reasonable" thing for Obama to do is allow Hillary to get all of her delegates and for Obama not to get any?

    What is the color of the sky in your world?

    [ Parent ]

    As I said, I expect the uncommitted (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by MarkL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:25:27 AM EST
    delegates to go to Obama. The political pressure to do so will be unbearable.
    Awarding them to Obama officially rankles though.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama can have all the delegates (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by felizarte on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:26:36 AM EST
    with his name on it.  The trouble is, he wants to claim what he did not earn.

    [ Parent ]
    It is not the rerasonable thing to do (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:26:48 AM EST
    It is the SMART THING to do. The RIGHT thing to do.

    do you want to win in November or not?

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, we do, and Obama cannot (5.00 / 0) (#103)
    by FlaDemFem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:36:40 AM EST
    beat McCain. Hillary can.

    [ Parent ]
    I want Obama to get the delegates... (3.00 / 0) (#102)
    by mike in dc on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:36:23 AM EST
    ...that he deserves.  He deserves at least 70% of the uncommitteds, and at least 70% of the uncommitted share of the popular vote there.

    Clinton can get everything else she wants.  I just want at least 38 of those uncommitteds and credit for 28% of the popular vote in MI, plus whatever Obama is due from FL.

    It's an eminently fair arrangement.

    [ Parent ]

    There's no such thing as an uncommitted delegate. (none / 0) (#29)
    by sweetthings on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:04:58 AM EST
    Especially at this stage.

    [ Parent ]
    It's good to be back! (none / 0) (#138)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:53:09 AM EST
    He's speaking in FL right now, opened with "it's good to be back in Florida". When was he there?

    "Give it up for Waxman" ... that country preacher hollar is so presidential. YIKES!

    [ Parent ]

    Obama Did Fund Raisers In FL Before The Primary n/ (none / 0) (#173)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:36:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Does it matter? (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by goldberry on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:02:44 AM EST
    We can only speculate on what Clinton might have done.  We know for sure what Obama has already done.  


    [ Parent ]
    The uncommitted are for Obama (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:10:58 AM EST
    through the delegate selection process in Michigan. did you not know that?

    [ Parent ]
    I don't trust... (none / 0) (#109)
    by mike in dc on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:38:16 AM EST
    ...that process in Michigan.  Word is that the party establishment there worked the system to give Clinton some extra delegates out of that uncommitted pool.  

    I'd rather the RBC formalize some of those uncommitteds as pledged Obama delegates.  About 38, based on exit polling.

    [ Parent ]

    No (none / 0) (#158)
    by cmugirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:10:15 PM EST
    They based on exit polls, and HRC actually had some people who voted "uncommitted", so she would be entitled to the 3% (or whatever it was).

    [ Parent ]
    so, she gets... (none / 0) (#170)
    by mike in dc on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:34:08 PM EST
    ...2 extra delegates, and he gets 38.

    [ Parent ]
    Read this and weep, pal (none / 0) (#44)
    by herb the verb on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:14:17 AM EST
    Rules regarding seating delegates.

    If you want a compromise, let's talk about following the DNC rules as a starter. Deal?

    [ Parent ]

    By not pushing for MI and Fl (5.00 / 7) (#10)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:56:21 AM EST
    please someone tell me what does it make Obama, transcended, transformed, change agent, post partisan or is this the new politics?

    BTD (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:59:25 AM EST
    give it up. Obama and his campaign are completely clueless about a general election. The truth of the matter is that the way Obama has played the primaries has rendered him absolutely unelectable in the fall. Better to realize it now than later. Save yourself some heartache in Nov. if he's the nominee.

    Obama will never seat MI and FL. He will write those states off hoping that some other states will come through for him in a general election. McCain will remind everyone how weak Obama is, so weak in fact that he can't even stand up to the DNC.

    DING DING DING DING. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:05:42 AM EST
    You've gotta admire BTD for his persistence in the face of absolutely no evidence, though. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    so is the DNC party leaders (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by TalkRight on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:27:20 AM EST
    Obama and his campaign are completely clueless about a general election

    like pelosi, dean...

    [ Parent ]
    CNN commenter (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Emma on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:00:57 AM EST
    Jamal, I'm sorry I forgot his last name, on CNN last night said Obama will fight seating MI/FL because it leaves the door open for Hillary, and he can't afford to do that.

    I've never been too impressed with Jamal (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by Just another person on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:05:43 AM EST
    I'm not surprised he'd let the truth slip, though I'm sure if he actually stopped to realise what he was saying, we'd have heard the usual talking points of Teh Roolz

    [ Parent ]
    This is a big DNC problem (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:02:13 PM EST
    Personally, it seems like a "conflict of interest" to give these decisions to the candidates rather than to put the voters first.

    The bottom line is: Obama's stand on FL & MI is all for HIM.  Hillary's rejection of the recent MI solution was because it was incorrect and didn't represent the votes she did receive.

    The FL & MI Obama standoff is not the only questionable manipulation of votes his campaign has made. They just aren't being taken to task and investigated.


    [ Parent ]

    I'm surprised (none / 0) (#21)
    by stillife on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:02:43 AM EST
    to hear such honesty from a CNN commentator.

    [ Parent ]
    Political courage. (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by liminal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:00:57 AM EST
    This is a great post, BTD, and thank you.  I'm still waiting for Obama to show the sort of political courage I want to see in the Democratic nominee for the presidency.  Hillary has shown that political courage by making stand after stand in the primary season, and coming through with grace and dignity against all odds.  

    I'm not completely in the tank for her.  I know she's done that because she's been forced there by circumstance and history, but what matters to me now is not the why or the how, but the fact of it - as it makes her a very, very attractive general election candidate.  

    Obama hasn't done that.  He could've started.  He could've okayed the plan for a full and fair revote in Michigan.  He could've campaigned in West Virginia.  He could've campaigned in Kentucky.  He could've gone to Welch, West Virginia or Harlan, Kentucky and spoken about our core and common values; he could've respected the voters of two of the poorest states in the country enough to ask for their votes directly, and maybe that would've made a difference, if not in the primary, then in the general election.  He still has that opportunity: Obama could join with Hillary and demand that the votes of the people of Florida and Michigan be counted now.  I still would be rooting for HRC to pull out the nomination under those circumstances, but if Obama were to show the political courage necessary to face uncertainty and fight for every vote, I'd be a heck of a lot happier with him as the potential nominee.  

    I don't get it. (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by s5 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:03:22 AM EST
    Obama is going to Florida at the same time as Clinton. Both sides agree that the delegates will be seated. The details will be decided on the 31st. Game over.

    You don't get it (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:08:44 AM EST
    I agree.

    [ Parent ]
    The point is (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by mffarrow on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:17:24 AM EST
    The DNC has said that the MI and FL primaries (and their results) were illegitimate, but that the delegates will be seated after the nomination is decided.  Clinton needs those delegates counted as is, right now, because they would help her in the delegate race.

    The Clinton campaign is fighting to get the delegates recognized as legitimate, before the nomination is decided, because it would help her get the nomination.  The argument that she is fighting for enfranchisement of the voters is (smart) political theatre to whip up support for her campaign.


    [ Parent ]

    You do not get it either (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:24:02 AM EST
    What do you think will help Barack Obama in November?

    [ Parent ]
    They really think (5.00 / 8) (#94)
    by Steve M on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:33:16 AM EST
    that "seating delegates after the nomination is decided" will magically make the problem go away.

    You cannot get through to these people.  They cannot conceive of any voter who would base their vote on something like this, not when the Democratic ideology is so clearly superior to the Republican one.  They appear to have never seen an election before in their lives.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm amazed (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Nadai on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:43:21 AM EST
    at how little they seem to understand people.  In their world, apparently, no one ever holds a grudge.  No one ever does anything out of spite.  No one ever reacts emotionally.  No one is ever irrational in any way.

    I don't get it.  Does the Internet reach as far as Vulcan?

    [ Parent ]

    magical thinking? yeah right (none / 0) (#199)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:33:13 PM EST
    just like brazile in 2000. got it!

    [ Parent ]
    Acting like the voters matter. (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:42:15 AM EST
    and stop being perceived as willing to disenfranchise voters (stop giving the Repubs ammunition)

    He could pretend he has strength (stop giving the Repubs reason to call him weak) and doesn't doubt he is the most electable (stop giving the Repubs ammunition)

    Stop the impression the system was gamed (giving the Repubs ammunition) and the elitist DNC selected Obama (more ammunition for the Repubs)

    They are already attaching all of these memes to him .... his only hope is to try to soften the glue.


    [ Parent ]

    Coming to FL won't help him (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by FlaDemFem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:43:42 AM EST
    in November. Having our delegates seated and voting will. He won't do that. He won't win FL in November. The prevailing attitude is that if our votes aren't good enough for him in the primary, why give them to him in November? And given the number of retirees down here from KY, WV, PA and the other states he basically wrote off as beneath him, he will lose FL in a major landslide. He will get some of the AA vote, and some of the rich"I am not really a racist" vote, but the majority of FL voters will not vote for him.

    [ Parent ]
    What will help Obama in November (none / 0) (#121)
    by mffarrow on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:43:02 AM EST
    Is keeping Clinton from having any legitimate claim to the nomination.  :)  

    [ Parent ]
    That is absiurd (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:45:55 AM EST
    and counterproductive on two fronts.

    The Florida problem is not even about Clinton. It is about Dems and by extension Obama.

    And your answer, implicitly, to the divided Party problem is to denigrate Clinton's efforts to seek the nomination?

    Your advice is exactly the opposite of what Obama needs to do.  

    [ Parent ]

    I said that Clinton's strategy was smart (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by mffarrow on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:56:22 AM EST
    I also said it was political theatre, b/c I think it is.  Clinton would not be fighting for FL/MI if she did not need the delegates, but she is crafting her fight for the delegates in a way that resonates with voters.

    Obama cannot afford to legitimize the delegates or the narrative, because doing so would hurt his chances at the nomination.  I imagine that he will have to address the narrative at some point, when he is the nominee, precisely because it resonates so strongly with some voters.

    [ Parent ]

    hmm, you are a little late with that canard. (none / 0) (#200)
    by hellothere on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:34:02 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Ah, butter knife fights.... (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by suki on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:08:19 AM EST
    I will be chuckling about that imagery all day!
    I wrote the DNC and canceled my Democracy bond and let them know it was mainly due to Donna Brazile's behavior throughout this campaign.
    She was frustratingly inept before but has been pure poison through this primary. My disgust with her is complete.

    WOW! (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by MarkL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:09:00 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Did I just imagine a very bizarre comment (none / 0) (#38)
    by MarkL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:09:42 AM EST
    about PRC? Weird.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (none / 0) (#63)
    by suki on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:22:09 AM EST
    You've totally lost me here.

    [ Parent ]
    Someone else.. the comment must have (none / 0) (#67)
    by MarkL on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:23:50 AM EST
    been deleted, and my reply got tacked to yours.

    [ Parent ]
    It's very simple. (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by mffarrow on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:11:37 AM EST
    Clinton's stance is not a heroic effort to enfranchise voters, it's a political fight to get more delegates.  

    The DNC has said that FL and MI delegates will be seated. Clinton needs the delegates from those states, and believes that those delegates would affect the outcome of the nomination in her favor.  That is why she wants them to be considered legitimate, as is, and that is why she is "fighting."

    And Obama's campaign has zero interest in helping Clinton get more delegates, so we won't see them traveling to FL and MI together.

    not Clinton.

    Clinton Derangement Syndrome prevents you from understanding the point of my post.

    [ Parent ]

    Your point (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by mffarrow on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:21:12 AM EST
    As I understand it, is that Clinton's argument has political resonance with voters, especially her supporters, regardless of the self-interest that compels the argument.

    I am not disputing that.  I am saying that Obama is not engaging in the "fight for the voters" because it only helps his opponent.

    [ Parent ]

    You still do not get it (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:33:04 AM EST
    His opponent will be John McCain. His NOT engaging in this fight is helping his opponent John McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    I get it (none / 0) (#133)
    by mffarrow on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:48:55 AM EST
    Clinton is his opponent until she gets out of the race.  She is using this "fight" as a means of staying in the race and shifting the outcome.  If Obama allows the FL and MI delegates to be considered legitimate, as is, right now, then Clinton will have scored a major win in the primary and would be on stronger footing to get the nomination.

    I imagine that the campaign has weighed the compelling Clinton narrative of enfranchisement against the dangers of legitimizing the FL and MI delegates too soon.

    I don't dispute that the Clinton narrative is compelling, or that Obama might have to do something about it.  But I understand why they haven't done it yet.

    [ Parent ]

    No (none / 0) (#160)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:12:25 PM EST
    You do not get it.

    [ Parent ]
    No you don't get it (none / 0) (#167)
    by Manuel on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:22:12 PM EST
    The probability of Clinton getting the nomination is small.  Seating FL as is would be a smart move for the Obama campaign because the benefits (party unity, FL good will) far outweigh the cost (improved nomination chances for Clinton from epsilon to delta).  The only reason for Obama to not do this is if he does not agree that delta is small.


    [ Parent ]
    Florida (none / 0) (#136)
    by Artoo on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:51:58 AM EST
    Isn't that a double-edged sword for McCain though considering the Republican-controlled Florida legislature moved up the primary?

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Step Beyond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:20:23 PM EST
    Because the Repubs only took 50% of the delegates. And it wasn't really mentioned again (a little here and there but no voter outcry). Same legislature and very different results because the RNC and DNC handled it very differently.

    [ Parent ]
    I Wouldn't Be At All Surprised If The (none / 0) (#178)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:41:33 PM EST
    Republican Party seated 100% of FL delegates at the convention. The Democratic Party IIRC planned to do the same thing before they got stuck on the Roolz.

    [ Parent ]
    it sure does help his opponant (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by americanincanada on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:38:47 AM EST
    both now AND in November. Obama's stance will virtually assure defeat in the GE.

    [ Parent ]
    So what you are saying is that (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:21:21 AM EST
    Clinton is doing the right thing, albeit for her own short and long term advantage, and Obama is doing the wrong thing, which happens to not hurt him that much in the short term and hurt him a lot in the long term.

    I know who I think is smarter.

    [ Parent ]

    Wrecking the clandar (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:15:31 AM EST
    What will wreck the calandar is the Republican's knowledge that they can now move primaries around in any state where they control the legislature, and the DNC will neuter that state.

    Obama is betting that no one will have the nerve to call him an illegitimate nominee if FL and MI are not counted properly. He also thinks he can distribute enough kool-aid to still win MI, and is convinced he does not need FL at all.  

    He's not going to do anything but mouth platitudes about how he is sure the delegates will be seated at the convention. Of course they will, but they will not count.

    He is in FL today, mainly talking to Puerto Ricans in the Orlando area. I guess it is easier to talk to them here, then in, say, Puerto Rico.

    He hesitates for a reason (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Saul on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:23:54 AM EST
    Because he won't do it until he is 100 percent sure they will not matter in the nomination process.  He still fears that Hilary will take it to the convention and convince them to vote for her.

    Start over. (5.00 / 5) (#74)
    by hitchhiker on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:25:13 AM EST
    who gives a darn about the outrageous, unfair and ridiculous Democratic nomination process which needs to be completely overhauled anyway?

    That right there is why this conversation about what license those bad little state parties will do in 4 years is so ridiculous.  If the last 6 months have shown us anything, it's that the Democrats' current "system" of choosing a nominee needs a full-on overhaul.

    It has to be ripped up, shredded, and ground into dust.  Nobody can pretend anymore that the way we do this makes a particle of sense or has any connection to choosing the most qualified candidate.

    "Fighting" to seat FL and MI is a sham. (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by jimotto on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:28:11 AM EST
    Show me where the Obama campaign has said that delegates from MI and FL should not be seated.  Additionally, Obama himself has said this month that the delegations will be seated.  This whole "fighting the seating" crap is a construction of the Clinton campaign.

    Your quibble is that the delegations will not be seated exactly as the Clinton campaign wants them to be.  Namely 67 delegates for Obama out of the two states, and no more.  

    The Obama campaign has not quibbled with any of the proposals that FL and MI have put forth for seating their delegations.  They will go along with whatever the DNC decides on May31.  If there is a campaign that "fights" the seating of the delegates after May 31, it will be the Clinton campaign.  

    Show me where he fought to seat them (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:31:41 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    "Fighting" for them is a straw man. (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by jimotto on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:00:19 PM EST
    The rules committee meeting on May31.