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A Feel Better Story

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Media
Posted on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:26:12 PM EST
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I am no Roger Simon fan. In fact, I am a Roger Simon critic. But I think this article was excellent. And as someone who has to eat crow on absolutely underestimating David Axelrod, it also made me feel good about the Obama campaign team and their skills. Here is a snippet:

“After we lost the New Hampshire primary,” Axelrod says, “the next day, on about three hours of sleep, [Obama] said, ‘I think what happened yesterday was right. When you are the new guy, it is not supposed to be easy. It was like Icarus flying too close to the sun. We have to earn this. But it persuaded me this is the right battle.’”

Good on Obama. Good on Axelrod. And good on Simon for this very good article.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< Hillary on Sexism and the Race Going Forward | Sen. Kennedy Has Malignant Brain Tumor >

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    A Feel Better Story | 192 comments (192 topical)

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    Really? (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:27:58 PM EST
    It was like Icarus flying too close to the sun.
    Strikes me as something that Obama really oughtn't say about himself. Oh well.

    bad analogy all the way around (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:29:52 PM EST
    obama's a scholar of constitutional law, but apparently not the classics...

    [ Parent ]
    At the very least (5.00 / 9) (#9)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:31:16 PM EST
    it tends to reinforce the idea that he has an inflated opinion of himself. It sounds almost delusional.

    That it's a cruddy analogy is almost secondary.

    [ Parent ]

    I disagree (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by Upstart Crow on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:57:07 PM EST
    I say it's fiction, concocted very recently to counter charges of arrogance and overconfidence.

    [ Parent ]
    And to Counter the Idea (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by BDB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:02:27 PM EST
    that Obama is tired or put-out by the long race.  We always expected this.  Yeah, right.

    [ Parent ]
    Like the Aztecs.... (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:25:12 PM EST
    whose real story is not known still today, but who began making it ever so impressive as they went along their path to conquer Meso-America, Obama is fabricating his own and disseminating it through the mouths and pens of surrogates, both voluntary and bought.
    We're still in the dark about this man's being everything,and anything to every body, but when we find out in the end, being nobody to any body, it may be too late!

    [ Parent ]
    For one thing... (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Upstart Crow on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:42:07 PM EST
    If he really had this light-bulb moment, surely he would have turned a new leaf after New Hampshire.

    Instead, we've seen a lot of cockiness and arrogance.  The same as before.

    Since that's the case, I don't see the point in announcing his light-bulb moment some time ago.  It just called into question why he didn't turn into a different kind of candidate.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't get this (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    the analogy as commonly accepted is one of arrogance being the downfall of Icarus, which covers most Greek tragedies.

    Obama is saying that he assumed that NH would be a win and he paid the price for it.

    How is that an example of arrogance?

    Delusional?  Do you think that Obama thinks he is actually Icarus?

    [ Parent ]

    IF Obama came out (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:11:18 PM EST
    and said, gee I was arrogant and did not realize how hard I would have to work, that would be one thing...it is really what he did after NH that is the rub for me.  He is not any less arrogant today than he was before or right after NH.  

    [ Parent ]
    BTD, you really believe (5.00 / 4) (#108)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:18:34 PM EST
    this story is true?

    LOL.

    It's about as true as Giuliani turning to Kerik after 9/11 and saying, "Thank God George Bush is our President."

    It never happened, and neither did this.

    [ Parent ]

    And Again Doesn't Hold Himself Accountable (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:23:16 PM EST
    for any damn thing he does...that is the height of arrogance.  Once again he sounds like gwb..."this is hard work".  DUH!!

    [ Parent ]
    The problem is that he's comparing himself (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:38:13 PM EST
    to Greek Mythology.

    [ Parent ]
    Why? (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:32:19 PM EST
    I actually do not follow what you folks are objecting to here.

    [ Parent ]
    It's a plant (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:34:51 PM EST
    another story to make him seem humble and brilliant.  I just don't buy the narrative.  

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:36:12 PM EST
    It does not make him seem humble at all. That is the problem.

    [ Parent ]
    Deluded, not humble. (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:41:50 PM EST
    Check out the third picture down:

    ICARUS

    [ Parent ]

    Love that picture (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:09:45 PM EST
    Axelrode giving the shove.

    [ Parent ]
    I thought it was Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:19:38 PM EST
    Congressional backers doing the pushing.

    [ Parent ]
    Sort of a fill in the blank. (none / 0) (#116)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:20:53 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Crash and Burn.... (none / 0) (#122)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:24:32 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Did Someone say ICARUS? (none / 0) (#154)
    by Get 27 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:29:47 PM EST
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkyAfXVpVrM

    [ Parent ]
    But I think Stellaa (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by MMW on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:45:16 PM EST
    is right. It is SUPPOSED to make him seem humble. They are just so dang elitist, they couldn't even grasp a truely humbling analogy.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry, Stellaaa, not Stellaa (none / 0) (#41)
    by MMW on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:50:40 PM EST
    I should know this too - considering I hear Streetcar everytime I see one of your posts.

    [ Parent ]
    No problem (none / 0) (#48)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:52:39 PM EST
    What's an "a" between comrades.  

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks for understanding. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by MMW on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:55:11 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I don't get how it makes him seem (none / 0) (#61)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:57:44 PM EST
    humble?

    [ Parent ]
    Roger Simon Giving obama One More Ride (5.00 / 7) (#23)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:39:29 PM EST
    on the Free Pass Express.  obama has been the new
    kid in every one of his races, but always found an easy way to slide into office.  This is the first time he has actually had to work for something.  This rings as hollow as michelle's glowing comments about Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    icarus was a young man (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:39:24 PM EST
    who was fleeing imprisonment, with his father. he got drunk on the feeling of flight, and fell to his doom. the analogy of fleeing is backwards. the analogy of a young, immature man, essentially unthinkingly following his father, is probably not the best image for obama to be projecting.

    [ Parent ]
    He sort of pissed the Gods (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:42:13 PM EST
    off and they with the help of the sun melted the wax on his wings.  As he was flying he was taunting the gods.  

    [ Parent ]
    Remember the end of the story? (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:48:36 PM EST
    Icarus' arrogance was the cause of his failure and ultimate fall to his death.

    Maybe Obama is slowly falling to his political death because of his arrogance.

    [ Parent ]

    taunting the gods, indeed (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:48:46 PM EST
    Won't be the sun this time, but the moon...

    Blue moon of Kentucky won't you keep on shining!

    [ Parent ]

    Um (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:48:40 PM EST
    Now you are patronizing me.

    I of course know about the Icarus myth.

    What I was asking about was your reaction. you act as if the Icarus metaphor has never been used before.

    [ Parent ]

    it is a really, really bad metaphor (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:51:02 PM EST
    for Obama to use.  Right up there with saying Narcissus fell into the water.  It shows the artifice behind the statement.  They are trying to appear humble without actually humbling themselves.

    [ Parent ]
    that he was a foolish young man (5.00 / 6) (#49)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:53:23 PM EST
    completely unaccomplished and merely following his father, destroyed by his own impetuous immaturity...

    not the best image, for obama.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama's point seemed obvious to me (none / 0) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:08:40 PM EST
    HE needed the test of a tough campaign to be ready to fly close to the sun - the nomination.

    He is actually saying Hillary Clinton has been a great HELP to him.

    I just completely disagree with your interpretation on this.

    [ Parent ]

    Again, (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:18:50 PM EST
    the problem isn't what he meant. The problem is that he's comparing his situation to Greek mythology. Hillary/Obama, Rocky/Icharus, Beer track/wine track.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:31:01 PM EST
    I wonder if this reflects how he actually thinks or if they deliberately crafted this story for Simon's benefit?  I can't believe they didn't use a pop culture reference.  Heck, I can be obnoxiously snobby at times but even I don't think of myself in terms of Greek myth.

    [ Parent ]
    Those schools in Indonesia and (none / 0) (#138)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:35:14 PM EST
    Hawaii were pretty darn good.  

    [ Parent ]
    A Book! (none / 0) (#137)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:35:11 PM EST
    He should write a book about the NH campaign.

    [ Parent ]
    No patronizing intended (none / 0) (#91)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:10:01 PM EST
    I know YOU know the myth - I was wondering if Axelrod had read the end of the story.

    Sorry if it came off that way.

    [ Parent ]

    Superficially, the Icarus story (none / 0) (#96)
    by befuddled on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:11:51 PM EST
    looks like the brave young son setting off to help his father, but inexperience overcomes him. Poor, unready son. Looking at the Wiki, though, I had another vision of a powerful, calculating person sacrificing a dupe for his own good. Poor, stupid son.

    The author meant well, I believe, but missed the mark. Either way, it isn't a good image for Obama, nor is the conventional interpretation that the gods were not amused by the temerity of the two and killed Icarus, thus also killing Daedelus because his inheritance was cut off. It leaves me wanting to know, who is the analogy to Daedelus in the Obama/Icarus allegory?

    [ Parent ]

    First of all (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by rnibs on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:54:00 PM EST
    it wasn't the right battle.  And secondly, it seems to imply nobility, or something, but it is the ignobility of his campaign that makes it not the right battle.  One fights the right battle with honor, and he has not.  

    [ Parent ]
    I will tell you what I find disconcerting (5.00 / 4) (#128)
    by Florida Resident on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:25:28 PM EST
    in the post.  Is when you say
    Good on Obama. Good on Axelrod. And good on Simon for this very good article.

    If my memory serves me right it was after NH that the Obama's campaign of misogynic attacks and race baiting really started to get down and dirty.  Remember SC and the way the started saying the Clintons were racist?

    [ Parent ]

    Florida Resident, agreed. (none / 0) (#166)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:57:51 PM EST
    It appears that what Axelrod really learned after the NH loss was that they'd have to play the race card to insure Clinton got no AA support in the subsequent SC primary (and beyond).

    That strategy could have worked well if they'd stuck to calling Hillary, Bill and Ferraro racists. It began to backfire, big-time, when they started calling millions of VOTERS racist.


    [ Parent ]

    Answer (3.00 / 1) (#80)
    by buhdydharma on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:05:14 PM EST
    Anything reasonable or vaguely positive about Obama

    [ Parent ]
    Ha. (none / 0) (#97)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:11:55 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    BTD (none / 0) (#179)
    by CanadianDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:29:45 PM EST
    you've lost control ;)

    [ Parent ]
    The apt analogy (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:34:02 PM EST
    would be Odysseus.  Clever, fought all the battles, but makes it home.  So much for an Ivy League education.  

    [ Parent ]
    except that michelle (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:41:16 PM EST
    wouldn't have suffered the attentions of the suitors. she'd have kicked their asses out of the palace long before her hero got home.

    [ Parent ]
    heh (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:43:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Aha...but this is (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:46:08 PM EST
    the mistake, Penelope, was very clever.  She kept weaving so that she can retain the power while Odysseus was out of town.  Throwing them out would have resulted in loss of her power.  See, Michelle would have done the wrong thing.  

    [ Parent ]
    penelope wasn't strong enough (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:55:28 PM EST
    to deal with the problem directly. and she wasted all the palace wealth, letting the suitors run rampant. michelle would be tougher, smarter, and more fiscally responsible!

    [ Parent ]
    Don't think so (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:59:09 PM EST
    cause the rules of the time.  She played them.  By the standards of the time she had to wed, and she stalled them with cleverness matching that of Odysseus.  Otherwise she would have lost the throne, her power and her sons inheritance to the throne.  Not that simple.  The style you prescribe would have been wrong especially for Telemachus.  

    [ Parent ]
    And we constantly hear Obama (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    has the support of the creative class.  Not true.  Just read these comments.

    [ Parent ]
    and the other lesson is: (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Don't get into a "do you know your gods" discussion with Stellaaa.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactemente. (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:04:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Penelope (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    was always one of my heroines.  Her nobility reminds me of Hillary.  
    Everyone gave Odysseus the props, yet Penelope preserved the throne, the kingdom and her son's rights.  Fortitude.  I wanted to name my daughter Penelope, but found another great Greek name.

    [ Parent ]
    Dorothy Parker (none / 0) (#131)
    by kayla on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:28:59 PM EST
    wrote a good poem about Penelope and how her strength rivals Odysseus's.

    [ Parent ]
    Kathy and Oculus (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:13:45 PM EST
    Keep me from saying what I am thinking about you know who and the illness.  I am sure you guys thought it, but don't want to be mean, rude, crass and nasty.  

    I repeat:  will not go into thread. will not go into thread.  

    [ Parent ]

    You are being nice; a good leader. (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:25:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    but the obamas (none / 0) (#78)
    by Turkana on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:04:26 PM EST
    are about change! she'd have changed the politics-as-usual of ithaka!

    [ Parent ]
    That is true! (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:07:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    LOL!! (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by TomP on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:50:41 PM EST
    Good line, turkana.  I think it's Axelrod, though.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly, why didn't he know (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:30:50 PM EST
    before New Hampshire that he would have to fight for it?  Did he really believe he was just going to get the nomination after NH?  Even if he had won NH, I am not sure why he would be thinking it was already over.

    [ Parent ]
    If he had won NH (none / 0) (#11)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:31:50 PM EST
    it almost certainly would have been over.

    [ Parent ]
    You really think the momentum would have (none / 0) (#13)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:33:21 PM EST
    carried him through Super Tuesday?  I am not so sure he would have helped him change any outcomes on Super Tues, but what do I know?

    [ Parent ]
    Remember, (none / 0) (#17)
    by andrewwm on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:35:05 PM EST
    at the time there was talk of mass defections from the Clinton campaign and her having trouble holding it together. Likely a win in NH and the whole thing would have fallen apart.

    Everyone was assuming it would be like 2004 and if he won, it probably would have been.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, it's actually hard to game that out (none / 0) (#18)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:35:35 PM EST
    If everything continued thereafter as it otherwise has, it wouldn't have mattered. But who knows?

    [ Parent ]
    I saw an article recently speculating (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:45:56 PM EST
    how Clinton would have fared if she had "written off" Iowa before the caucuses, so as not to lose there.  

    [ Parent ]
    It says something, don't it? (none / 0) (#165)
    by Upstart Crow on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:53:42 PM EST
    About his attitudes in life. He didn't know he was going to have to work hard for the presidency.  Thought it would be handed to him.

    Do you realize his presidency of the Harvard Review was distinguished by the fact that he was the ONLY president not to write something for the review?

    A pattern is emerging here...

    Everyone keeps associating him with youth, and needing experience.  But he's 46 year's old -- hardly "young," in terms of character.  What you see is what you get.

    [ Parent ]

    Upstart Crow, I also don't know (none / 0) (#169)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:08:31 PM EST
    any 46 year olds who are quite as "young" as Obama.

    Obama has a very short remaining shelf life before his 'youth' and 'freshness' expires. i.e. if he waited till the end of his second term in the Senate, not only would he be old (50), he'd have 4 more years of legislative experience that could be used for, or against, him.

    [ Parent ]

    Especially since Icarus dies after his (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by ahazydelirium on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:35:50 PM EST
    wings melt.

    [ Parent ]
    Comparing himself to the gods (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:56:20 PM EST
    even fallen ones, is a stretch IMHO.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:15:11 PM EST
    That was my only point. It is especially a problem for Obama, who already comes off as aloof. He does not now need to start sounding like a professor. (I think Jeralyn has already said that he does).

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary gets it (5.00 / 5) (#107)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:18:31 PM EST
    she compared herself to Rocky.  

    [ Parent ]
    You get it (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:20:41 PM EST
    I made that point above.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry...not reading fast enough. (none / 0) (#119)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:21:49 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And not because (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:34:39 PM EST
    she doesn't know her classics.  

    [ Parent ]
    she does ? (none / 0) (#152)
    by cleek on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:27:41 PM EST
    Rocky lost his big underdog fight, to Apollo Creed, in a split decision.

    sounds like Clinton doesn't know her modern classics.

    [ Parent ]

    which one do you think the avg (none / 0) (#164)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:49:35 PM EST
    Joe relates to Rocky or Icarus?

    [ Parent ]
    avg Joe (none / 0) (#193)
    by cleek on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:44:54 AM EST
    knows Rocky lost

    [ Parent ]
    A small "p" professor. (none / 0) (#129)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:26:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Icarus wasn't a god, he was (none / 0) (#171)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:14:21 PM EST
    a mortal with fatal hubris. He challenged the gods and lost. Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    Hm (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:08:47 PM EST
    The interesting thing is that in addition to perhaps the original Greek meaning as a cautionary tale re: arrogance, Latin and Renaissance poets often used Icarus as a symbol of heroic audacity and artistic creativity.

    Audacity and creativity.  Life is weird.

    [ Parent ]

    I mean honestly (5.00 / 10) (#114)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:20:36 PM EST
    How many of you, when faced with a setback, get a few hours sleep and then compare yourself to a Greek god?

    If that is not the very definition of elitism, I don't know what is.

    [ Parent ]

    Ding, Ding, Ding! (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:21:17 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Ha - we are cross-posting with eachother (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:25:05 PM EST
    on this one.  I'd love to see Hillary come up with an ad based on this, but I'm afraid it is too obscure.

    You and stellaa mentioned Rocky - i was also trying to come up with some pop culture analogies that would relate better with the rank and file.  If Obama wants to start courting the working class, he better first learn their myths.

    [ Parent ]

    I think of Homer (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:23:01 PM EST
    Simpson that is.  

    [ Parent ]
    Awesome (none / 0) (#127)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:25:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    How about Quagmire? (none / 0) (#139)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:35:47 PM EST
    Giggety,Giggety, Sweetie!

    [ Parent ]
    Icarus wasn't a god (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:18:59 PM EST
    I realize that you guys are looking for whatever you can find to smear Obama but can't you at least get the myth straight?

    He was ruined because he chose to defy the Gods, always a very bad idea in Greek mythology.  

    [ Parent ]

    Not elitism, hubris of the worst kind. nt/ (none / 0) (#172)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:17:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It is pretty weird (none / 0) (#144)
    by kayla on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:45:01 PM EST
    I've heard of people comparing others to Icarus, I have never heard someone compare themselves to Icarus.

    [ Parent ]
    Icarus smears the Clintons as racist... (none / 0) (#177)
    by lambert on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:28:44 PM EST
    ... just in time for SC? It would seem so. Looks like Simon's leaving out some of the more interesting material in his mythologizing...

    [ Parent ]
    that just warms my heart so much (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:27:59 PM EST
    it makes me want to donate to McCain.

    Oh the humility (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by Chisoxy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:29:16 PM EST
    ..it burns

    Don't believe a word (5.00 / 8) (#4)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:29:37 PM EST
    See, Axelrod's machine creates these false narratives.  I for one will never believe anything they throw out, cause I get their tactics.  It's all about false idealized narratives.  

    So what? (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:31:04 PM EST
    What's done is done?  Of course they think they are right.  No one ever would have suggested otherwise.

    Of course they figured they'd have to devise a new strategy after New Hampshire.

    I wonder what that was, I wonder if it impacted Obama's ability to win the General Election.

    I wonder if it divided the party.

    We know what strategy they (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:31:45 PM EST
    decided on at that point---something you can't mention here.

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:34:25 PM EST
    You can't.  And yes, we know that strategy, and we know this site will have a different mission soon.

    And I think it will fail, because I know that while Republicans DO prosper by a sort of systematic process of loyalty and denial, I know Democrats never do.


    [ Parent ]

    Yeah, couldn't possibly be he lost (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:35:50 PM EST
    because women came out for their preferred candidate.  This story makes you feel good?

    I mean, this story is bs. (5.00 / 5) (#31)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:44:51 PM EST
    I think the difference is obvious, women voters.  I think this notion(to use a word BO is so fond of) that Hillary had it easy because she was better known is just ridiculous.  She is the first woman to ever have a viable chance of becoming President.  It was never going to be easy.  Further, that was the first official primary ever won by a female candidate.  It was HER victory, not Obama's defeat.  How in the name of God is this a feel good story?

    [ Parent ]
    I agree, it's an interesting (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by JoeA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:40:05 PM EST
    article.

    The response in the comments is predictable.

    Well (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:47:06 PM EST
    I am not so popular here anymore but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    You hate my stuff on occasion too.

    that also is predictable.

    [ Parent ]

    Popularity is overrated (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:48:02 PM EST
    Take respect any day.  

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:49:37 PM EST
    You think you need to give me that advice?

    [ Parent ]
    No, just pointing out. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:51:01 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Oh, you are popular enough; but wrong! (5.00 / 7) (#46)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:51:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    when did you stop being popular? (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:51:51 PM EST
    I didn't get the memo.

    [ Parent ]
    Popular Does Not Equal Total Agreement (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:11:19 PM EST
    You are very popular but if we agreed with everything you wrote you would scoff at us just like you do those who repeat the every Obama talking point without critically examining it first.

    [ Parent ]
    C'mon (none / 0) (#167)
    by Upstart Crow on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:01:29 PM EST
    we love you, btd

    [ Parent ]
    ps (none / 0) (#176)
    by Upstart Crow on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:22:20 PM EST
    it's just so obvious that this one is pr spin, though

    [ Parent ]
    Well, you SHOULD be popular (none / 0) (#178)
    by lambert on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:29:44 PM EST
    You're supporting the wrong guy, but you still do great work.

    [ Parent ]
    "We have to earn this" (5.00 / 8) (#29)
    by hlr on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:43:58 PM EST
    and then he dispatched Jesse Jackson Jr.

    Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:57:37 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I think this is what is known as the ole okie doke (5.00 / 11) (#30)
    by Bob Boardman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:44:01 PM EST
    And Roger Simon is all too ready to write the gospel.

    After New Hampshire Axelrod and Obama pull the race-baiter card from the deck and played it beautifully. That is the real story.

    Indeed, if Obama had won the New Hampshire primary we wouldn't have had all of this ugliness and I would probably be voting for Obama in the fall.

    I'm sorry (5.00 / 8) (#45)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:51:10 PM EST
    Look, I'll vote for the nominee no matter how difficult Obama's supporters may make it for me, but you can't tell the story of this primary without talking about Axelrod's racial politics.

    As a native Detroiter, I always find it particularly depressing when that sort of strategy gets rewarded.  In the long run it leaves us all in a much worse place.

    Agree (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:11:42 PM EST
    As much as I might like the heart-warming tale of Obama's inspirational leadership of his team during times of trial & tribulation, I also remember the public outcomes.

    However, if he's better in private in adversity than he is in public, that's at least something positive.     I haven't liked his public demeanor during his recent losses or controversies. He seems short-tempered and tired.

    [ Parent ]

    So why do it SteveM? (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:43:36 PM EST
    They only CARE THAT YOU VOTE for him. There is no concern nor acknowledgement that you or any of us are voting for the DEMOCRATIC Candidate, not for O.

    They will get away with causing a schism in the party, boiling point antipathies between interest groups, dirty R word slanders, why go on? Those who choose to do this will in fact, sanction and condone all of their campaign ruses.

    Remember the saying: The end justifies the mean?


    [ Parent ]

    Heh (none / 0) (#168)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:04:22 PM EST
    I respect everyone's right to vote as they please.  But the conclusion I drew from the 2000 election and aftermath is that throwing an election to "send a message" simply does not work.  As for what would work, I have no idea, but I'm going to keep on being a sheep for the Democratic Party.

    [ Parent ]
    You're right SteveM, my apologies. (none / 0) (#174)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:19:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    SteveM, I am curious, who ... (none / 0) (#180)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:31:34 PM EST
    was responsible for "throwing an election", and to whom was the "send a message" that "simply does not work." in 2000?

    [ Parent ]
    You should write that in stone (none / 0) (#185)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:43:05 PM EST
    throwing an election to "send a message" simply does not work.
    and send it to the DNC. Right now. :)

    [ Parent ]
    His staff has been drama-free. (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by lilburro on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:54:22 PM EST
    I will hold my applause until after they show some ability to go after the votes of the eastern white working class.

    I heard on Nightline (none / 0) (#66)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:59:19 PM EST
    that Obama is waiting to go after those voters until Clinton is out of the race.

    Uh...okay.

    [ Parent ]

    weird, if he has a strategy to get them (none / 0) (#74)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    start doing it, as in YESTERDAY!  What advantage is there to waiting?

    [ Parent ]
    And visit WV and KY then too. Right...... (none / 0) (#79)
    by LadyDiofCT on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:04:30 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Go After (none / 0) (#98)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:12:38 PM EST
    Maybe he doesn't want to 'go after' them out of respect for Clinton.  Dunno. But clearly standing up against the sexism in this campaign would send a message.

    [ Parent ]
    That Was One Of obam's More Assinine (none / 0) (#135)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:34:38 PM EST
    statements.  Isn't he such a gentleman, not trying to take away Hillar's supporters/voters until she is out of the race....arrogance perhaps?
    And she isn't leaving until August; and after that, he may be on his way out.

    [ Parent ]
    Can we put (5.00 / 11) (#53)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:54:57 PM EST
    a "bring your barf bag" warning on this post.

    What a load of arrogant hooey.

    lol, :-) (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:01:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Simon is a lackey (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Raven15 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:55:17 PM EST
    But he and Axe-man are sophisticated enough to know that there are many who feel Obama is being handed the nomination on a silver-platter. This is nothing but the development of a counternarrative, one of many to come, no doubt.

    I have (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:56:44 PM EST
    to disagree with this. Considering what his surrogates went about screaming right after NH, it seems that what they define as fighting is not a winning strategy.

    Somehow ... (none / 0) (#118)
    by Inky on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:21:34 PM EST
    they managed to turn a whining strategy into a winning strategy. Go figure.

    [ Parent ]
    Feel better story? (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:59:06 PM EST
    Better than what? I appreciate your efforts BTD, but this isn't gonna cut it.

    And Then They Sent Jesse Jackson, Jr. (5.00 / 7) (