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Hillary on Sexism and the Race Going Forward

After her anticipated win in Kentucky tonight, despite the turning of some superdelegates in recent weeks and the media proclaiming her candidacy doomed, Hillary Clinton will have won four of the last six primaries. Her supporters are not accepting that the nomination has been decided and she insists she's going forward.

Whether she succeeds or not, it's clear her supporters are particularly upset about the sexist coverage of the campaign.

In Kentucky Sunday, Hillary Clinton was asked about sexism and racism in this year's presidential campaigns:

In an interview after church services in Bowling Green on Sunday, Clinton for the first time addressed what women have been talking about for months, what she refers to as the "sexist" treatment she has endured at the hands of the pundits, media and others. The lewd T-shirts. The man who shouted "Iron my shirt" at a campaign event. The references to her cleavage and her cackle.

[More...]

...."The manifestation of some of the sexism that has gone on in this campaign is somehow more respectable, or at least more accepted, and . . . there should be equal rejection of the sexism and the racism when it raises its ugly head," she said. "It does seem as though the press at least is not as bothered by the incredible vitriol that has been engendered by the comments by people who are nothing but misogynists."

The article continues with a discussion of how Hillary has "found her voice" in the past several weeks.

"She has totally found her voice," said a longtime adviser, "but what is so frustrating for her is that there isn't enough runway to get anything done."

No one is quite sure when Clinton hit her stride, when she stopped caring about the polls, when she took her campaign to the people and gave voters a window into her soul.

Hillary says the electoral map favors her. She says the popular vote favors her and MI and FL have to be resolved.

On May 31, MI and FL may be resolved in terms of delegates. What should the superdelegates then consider in terms of the states' popular vote? Shouldn't they go in Hillary's column?

June 3 isn't here yet. Hillary has promised to stay in the race until then. Realistically, after tonight, the only big win she may get is Puerto Rico.

Here's a question for her supporters: Do you think Hillary should stay in the race after June 3? (If you are not a Hillary supporter, feel free to respond to her supporters' arguments, but this question is for them so limit your comments to responding to their arguments.)

Comments now closed.

< Kentucky Prediction Open Thread | A Feel Better Story >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Stay in (5.00 / 15) (#1)
    by SeaMBA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:32:41 AM EST
    She should stay in.  If the Democratic party can't stand a contested primary election then it is not strong enough to lead this country.

    I am tired of gutless Democratic leaders being afraid to fight for Democratic ideas.

    Take it to the convention (5.00 / 7) (#12)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:40:26 AM EST
    by all means!  The convention is where we can recount delegates who want to change their minds.  And there may be some doing so, since many of O.'s delegates were pledged before the real O. and the real H. took center stage.

    I'd like to once again hear: "The great state of -------, home of the -------, casts its votes (20 votes for O and 100 votes for H!) hopefully.

    Parent

    I wish the Super-Ds would answer (5.00 / 6) (#48)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:48:22 AM EST
    your question.  Why are they flocking to the person whose changes in the GE are not as good as Clinton's?  Why flock at all at this time.  Why not wait until the convention?  

    Parent
    $$$$$ And Fear n/t (5.00 / 3) (#183)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:21:07 PM EST
    the SDs got the memo before Obamamites (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Josey on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:54:11 AM EST
    that the Washington establishment supports Obama.
    The SDs rolling out for Obama after Hillary's huge wins in states Dems need to win in Nov - imply they're being pressured.
    Usually their press releases mention nothing about Obama's positions on the issues - but rather his media-created image that dupes voters.
    Hollywood celebrities have the same appeal.
    Britney for President!


    Parent
    I Would Like To See This Go To The Convention (5.00 / 2) (#226)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:34:05 PM EST
    Why should it be alright for Kennedy, Jackson and others who seriously trailed their opponents to take it to the convention and not alright for Hillary who is extremely close not to do the same thing? Establishing a different criteria for Hillary will not unify the party but cause further division IMO.

    Also, it provides the party with options. If it becomes apparent that Obama is unable to win the GE, then the party can go with Hillary.

    Having stated what I think should happen, I do not think this is what will happen. From all indications, the Dem leadership is against this going to the convention and appears bound and determined that Obama will be the nominee regardless of the outcome.

    Parent

    I agree, she should stay in. (5.00 / 1) (#244)
    by Geri on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:40:41 PM EST
    I've been sending her campaign messages of support regularly asking her to stay in and keep fighting, even if it means taking this all the way to the convention. Hillary has the better chance of beating McCain in November, she is by far the more qualified candidate, and will most likely maintain the lead in the popular vote after June 3. She can stand up to anything the GOP throws at her, whereas I see Obama wilting and continuing to stumble - (he doesn't know which states border Kentucky; he doesn't know Persian and Pashto are the official languages of Afghanistan; he's just embarrassing whenever he tries to talk about foreign policy, etc.) Hillary has a legitimate moral claim on the nomination.

    Parent
    I think if she wins the popular vote (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:33:00 AM EST
    INCLUDING Florida and Michigan, she should stay until the convention.

    The SD's cannot, and should not, argue with the voice of the people.

    What are you (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by lilburro on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:39:52 AM EST
    the May 20th party planner?

    Parent
    RULES? Oh, you mean the rules (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by vicsan on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:44:15 AM EST
    that state all Super Delegates must vote for the candidate THEY THINK CAN BEST WIN IN NOVEMBER and NOT the candidate that Barack Obama thinks should be the nominee? THAT rule? I agree. The rules should be followed. 50 states vote, that includes MI and FL, one person one vote and the Super Delegates vote for the candidate they believe can win in November. PERIOD.

    Parent
    that person doesnt mean the rules (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:46:42 AM EST
    the mean the "rules"

    Parent
    No they are not (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by vicsan on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:52:11 AM EST
    lining up behind Obama. If they were, he would be the nominee already. Nice try though. Pledged delegates mean nothing. They can change their minds whenever they choose to. They are not a for sure vote for Obama and the RULES state that the SUPER DELEGATES are to vote for the candidate THEY believe can win in November. They do NOT state they should vote for Obama because HE wants them to. Sorry. Your guy will not be the nominee.

    Parent
    Let them line up. (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:53:34 AM EST
    I think they have to vote at convention.  If they support him so much, they can do so with their votes.

    Parent
    Funny how (5.00 / 5) (#98)
    by janarchy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:57:50 AM EST
    the Main Stream Media and Obama supporters were crying about the unfairness of Super Delegates until it started working in their favor. Keith Obamamann in particular kept making fun of "Sooooooper Delegates".

    The rules are always the rules what HAVE to be followed when they work in BO's favor. They are unfair, wrong and worthy of riots in the street when tehy are not. Hypocrisy much?

    Parent

    If Obama had enjoyed a big majorit then YES (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by TalkRight on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:44:54 AM EST
    FL/MI would not matter.. but THAT is not the case.. in such a slim lead (depending on what you count and what not) there is NO real winner.. THAT is why FL/MI are important..

    Parent
    Minds were meant to be changed. (none / 0) (#77)
    by vicsan on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:54:02 AM EST
    DEAL WITH IT. Obama is going to lose. It's best you learn to handle the truth NOW before it actually happens. Living in reality is a good thing.

    Parent
    Please note troll "Artoo" giving all (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by chancellor on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:53:31 AM EST
    pro-Hillary comments a "1".

    Parent
    his ratings have been erased (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:07:33 PM EST
    for improper use of the ratings system.

    Parent
    "The Voice Of the People" (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:11:27 PM EST
    The SD's cannot, and should not, argue with the voice of the people.

    Yes, they should.  The superdelegates exist because there's a chance the people will get it wrong in the early going.

    If I were a gamblin' woman I'd give you ten to one that Iowa would never have gone for Obama if Rev. Wright's diatribes had been known at the time of our caucuses.  When they came out weeks later a lot of Iowans were horrified.  We don't take kindly to "G-D America" here.

    Superdelegates are supposed to be the pragmatists...the people who can figure out who has the best chance of winning.  That, IMHO, would not be Mr. Obama.

    Parent

    No one campaigned (2.00 / 9) (#13)
    by kid oakland on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:41:09 AM EST
    in MI and FL.

    If the UN was monitoring an election in which neither candidate campaigned and one was the spouse of a former President, they wouldn't call it a fair election.

    That's obvious.

    We can respect the votes and voters of MI and FL and work to acheive a solution to seating their delegations at the same time as we acknowledge that the primaries in both states were ones in which no one campaigned.

    That does not generate an outcome we can call the "voice of the people."

    In the states and territories where all the candidates camapaigned, Barack Obama has decisively won the pledged delegates and the popular vote.

    Parent

    Oh, that's just pathetic. (5.00 / 9) (#39)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:46:57 AM EST
    I'm sorry.

    Obama took his name off the MI ballot in order to render that election illegitimate.

    When voters vote, it's the voice of the people. Period. (Delegates are a different story, of course.)

    There was no legitimate reason not to count those votes. Nevertheless, HRC was happy to re-vote in Michigan AND Florida. Obama wouldn't let it happen. What is he, the self-presumed nominee and choice of the people, afraid of?

    He's afraid that HRC really is the people's choice. That his coalition won't hold up in the GE.

    His fears are well-founded.

    Parent

    No (2.66 / 3) (#90)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:56:54 AM EST
    The DNC rendered the Michigan election illegitimate.  Obama pulled his name to prevent precisely what you guys are doing in Florida, using a flawed election in which one candidate has vastly superior name recognition to argue that the delegates should be seated DESPITE both candidates accepting that the primary was void.

    There certainly IS a legitimate reason to not count those votes.  They were OFFICIALLY ruled void.  

    I always love when people argue that the winner is scared of the loser and that's why he won't let the loser change the rules in their favor.

    Parent

    The votes in FLA and MI (5.00 / 2) (#215)
    by Geri on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:29:27 PM EST
    have been certified by the Secretaries of State in each state. They count. Period. If the DNC refuses to count every vote, it will be beyond ridiculous and undemocratic.

    Parent
    Explain to (5.00 / 1) (#268)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:13:32 PM EST
    we poor ignorant folk why Obama stood in the way of re-votes in MI and FL AFTER stating that he would abide by the DNC's approval of the re-vote plan.

    A demonstration that his word is more like sewerage than gold.

    He had a chance to settle the dispute, to get the DNC off the hook for its imbecilic decision but chose instead to use scorched earth methods.

    The 800 pound gorilla in the room is those 2.3 million votes cast in MI and FL that are ignored at great peril.

    Much of the Obama following is too dense to understand that.

    Parent

    Name recognition? (4.91 / 12) (#151)
    by Chisoxy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:12:06 PM EST
    WHy is it Obama can still claim to be an "unknown" whenever it suits him (WV, Kentucky)but on the other hand say everyone has seen enough, no need for debates, people have TV and the internet dontcha know.

    And why do you and kidoakland parrot this nonsense. Support Obama, by all means. But not everything his campaign does or says is gospel.

    Parent

    Why Helllo, Man of Straw (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:17:14 PM EST
    Where did I say anything about WV or KY?  He's losing those states because Hillary does well in Appalachia and he chose to make only a token effort to campaign in those states.  Name recognition arguments are no longer relevant.

    But they certainly were relevant in January and it would be utterly ridiculous to claim that Obama was as well known as Hillary in January.

    Parent

    It was only a week (none / 0) (#201)
    by Chisoxy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:25:37 PM EST
    Before superTuesday, he was not an unknown, unless somehow he campaigned across the entire country in a weeks time, enough so that he won more states.

    He has not been an unknown to anyone paying attention since Iowa and NH.

    Parent

    In fact (none / 0) (#269)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:22:42 PM EST
    he, with major assists from the press had been making his name known for some time.  He had been gifted the keynote address at the 2004 convention. He'd been running around the country building recognition for nearly a year before the Iowa caucuses.

    As a racially identifiable new kid on the block he had better name recognition than Dodd, Biden or Richardson.

    Parent

    Man flyerhawk, you are just the Don Quixote of (none / 0) (#214)
    by kindness on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:28:58 PM EST
    blogs.  I used to enjoy reading you over at RS.  You have a great deal more patience and tolerance than I do when dealing with those whom you don't fully agree.  Now I see you doing it here.

    Be of good cheer.

    Parent

    I believe (none / 0) (#233)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:37:25 PM EST
    that the best thing about blogs is finding people to argue with.  Going to a mutual appreciation blog doesn't really achieve anything.  We already agree.  

    I'll go back to RS once the elections are over.  They are too full of teh crazy right now.

    Parent

    Void? (none / 0) (#209)
    by ineedalife on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:27:20 PM EST
    The state certified them. And there is an appeal process. If, on May 31, they are officially recognized by the DNC I expect you to lead the campaign to convince the Obama mob that they are legit. OK?

    Parent
    Sure (1.00 / 0) (#246)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:40:59 PM EST
    If the RBC officially certifies them as-is that would mean that the race is over.  

    Howard Dean would need to resign if that were to happen in a contested race.  

    But they would be officially recognized at that time.  Currently they are NOT officially accepted.

    Parent

    That's not true. Obama (5.00 / 7) (#40)
    by vicsan on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:47:18 AM EST
    cheated and ran ads in Florida. He also made the decision ON HIS OWN, which was NOT required by the DNC, to remove his name from the MI ballot. Hillary was NOT the only candidate on the MI ballot either. Dodd and Kucinich were also on it. Obama made the choice to remove his name. HE should be punished for that, NOT Hillary.

    Parent
    Same thing from you (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by standingup on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:47:19 AM EST
    just a different day.  Why continue when you are not convincing anyone and only causing more ill will instead of good will that might eventually unify some to vote for Obama if he is the nominee?  

    Parent
    If fellow Democrats (3.40 / 5) (#109)
    by kid oakland on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:01:51 PM EST
    make non factual arguments that hurts all of us.

    By disagreeing and debating on the facts I am showing respect.

    It would be easy to dismiss TalkLeft from a "blog battles" point of view. I don't. I take this community seriously despite the fact that my comments have been deleted here.

    Jeralyn and Armando are lawyers and Democrats. They understand that reasoned, respectful, arguments are important whether one persuades anyone or not.

    In my experience blogging, it is the readers who make up their minds. Links and facts should always  be welcome.

    Parent

    this is off topic (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:04:09 PM EST
    Please do not redirect the conversation. You made your point in response to her supporters arguments. That's enough.

    Parent
    My point was (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by standingup on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:04:19 PM EST
    that many here don't take you or your opinion seriously.  So at this time, all you are doing is making the situation worse instead of better.  But if you can't help yourself, continue digging.  

    Parent
    Uh huh (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Nadai on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:08:40 PM EST
    Links and facts should always  be welcome.

    How's that been working over at DKos these last few months?

    Parent

    I think Hillary should have (5.00 / 5) (#53)
    by blogtopus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:49:41 AM EST
    taken her name off every ballot she wasn't going to win. That's what Obama did in Michigan, and people call him noble for it, when all it does is pi55 on Democracy.


    Parent
    Cherry picking. (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:50:58 AM EST
    Huh??? (5.00 / 7) (#71)
    by Inky on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:53:10 AM EST
    If the UN was monitoring an election in which neither candidate campaigned and one was the spouse of a former President, they wouldn't call it a fair election.

    Are you actually trying to suggest that Obama wasn't getting a lot of free media coverage, or that voters in Florida were not informed about who he was? Aside from the fact that Obama did in fact run ads in Florida, everyone know who he was and what his campaign was supposed to stand for. Do you think that Floridians don't have TVs, newspapers, or computers? Where do come up with this stuff?

    Parent

    Thank You (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by p lukasiak on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:22:22 PM EST
    I was so angry when i read that completely moronic "UN" comment that I wrote a reply, then decided not to post it because I would get banned.  Thank you for putting into "civil discourse" language what I'd tried to say.  

    KO's comment demonstrates just how dangerous the Kewl-Aid cult is --- he actually thinks that his "UN" argument was intellectually honest!

    Parent

    I wonder what (5.00 / 9) (#76)
    by lilburro on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:53:51 AM EST
    the UN would say about caucuses?

    Parent
    Oh come on! (5.00 / 6) (#82)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:54:46 AM EST
    You can say this without shame?
    In the states and territories where all the candidates camapaigned, Barack Obama has decisively won the pledged delegates and the popular vote.
    So, Obama did not campaign in PA or OH, huh? He didn't campaign in CA or MA, I assume? Yeah, right -- I didn't think so. Further, as others have pointed out -- Obama ran ads in FL & actively campaigned for people to vote "uncommitted" in MI. Nevertheless, what is so often missed is that not campaigning evens the playing field even better because that way the election is not about who has the most $.

    Parent
    New Talking Point? (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by gaf on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:20:40 PM EST
    If the UN was monitoring an election in which neither candidate campaigned and one was the spouse of a former President, they wouldn't call it a fair election.

    Pray, tell me - what's wrong with being the spouse of a former Pres?

    Did I miss a rec list diary on dKos with title "OMG BREAKING : WIFE OF FORMER PRESIDENT - UN SAYS NO" that I missed?


    Parent

    x (none / 0) (#231)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:36:46 PM EST
    They better tell that to the President of Argentina...(where they have a female president and they got rid of an Electoral College - go figure....)

    Parent
    Pandering to Iowa & NH (5.00 / 5) (#205)
    by gaf on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:26:36 PM EST
    Markos calls it pandering to Iowa & NH.
    Link here

    What's more, Clinton was the only top-tier candidate to refuse the ultimate Iowa and New Hampshire pander by removing her name from the Michigan ballot. That makes her essentially the de facto winner since Edwards and Obama, caving to the cry babies in Iowa and New Hampshire, took their name off Michigan's ballot. Sure, the DNC has stripped Michigan of its delegates, but that won't last through the convention. The last thing Democrats can afford is to alienate swing states like Michigan and Florida by refusing to seat their delegates.

    So while Obama and Edwards kneecap their chances of winning, Clinton is single-mindedly focused on the goal.



    Parent
    Obama campaigned in both states (5.00 / 3) (#224)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:33:43 PM EST
    through surrogates and commercials.  Radio commercials made it very clear that a vote for uncommitted was a vote for Obama.
    In addition your argument is nonsense because we have states voting every four years where they are never visited by a candidate or sent a mailer or see a commercial.  We call them NY, CA, ID, UT etc....

    Parent
    Why did (5.00 / 1) (#266)
    by Evie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:02:36 PM EST
    Obama take his name off the MI ballot, but not Florida's? I mean, if it's the RULES, then why doesn't the RULES apply to both states that were penalized? If Obama were really taking a stand on principle (following the RULES), then he would have taken his name off the ballots of BOTH states.

    Was he violating the RULES then when he left his name on the FL ballot? If not, then it would not be against the rules to leave his name on the MI ballot.

    Fair elections depend on being fair to the VOTERS, first and foremost. Giving voters the choice. In Michigan, Obama voluntarily eliminated that choice for the voters. He forfeited that contest.

    Parent

    kid oakland (5.00 / 1) (#267)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    that "logic" is ludicrous.  To be unfair one of the parties would have to have been GIVEN a special advantage.

    That situation just does not exist.

    Obama executed a cynical ploy in Michigan, pulling his name off the ballot to taint a certain Clinton win.

    In Florida no candidates, except Obama, campaigned. What could be more FAIR than the fact that no money was involved (except for Obama), no chance of 'buying' the vote.

    And I'd like to know when YOU decided that people casting secret ballots in a state operated election doesn't constitute the "voice of the people," especially when 2.3 million people participated.

    And no, Obama has not won anything decisevly or otherwise.

    Parent

    Sorry, but (4.63 / 11) (#66)
    by outsider on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:56 AM EST
    if UN election watchdogs were monitoring this primary process in general then they would surely refuse to sign it off as free and fair.  When you have a situation where a candidate can win the popular vote in a state yet lose in the delegate count because of arcane districting arrangements, where the delegate tally following a state's primary can be overturned by a causus "two-step" later that evening, where the number of delegates a candidate can obtain from a caucus state depends on how many of their supporters can cram themselves into a church hall and barricade out their opponent's supporters... that kind of stuff would shame a banana republic.  *If this were an election.*   A very risky line of argument for an Obama supporter to make, methinks...

    Parent
    Obama had campaign ads in Florida. (4.33 / 6) (#25)
    by MMW on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:44:09 AM EST
    That is an established fact. Both names were on the ballot. Lying about a proven fact derails your argument. I didn't get past that statement.

    Parent
    Here's the thing... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by kid oakland on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:55:40 AM EST
    the reason that I wrote to Jerome and Jeralyn in the wake of their inflated claims that Obama campaigned in Florida based on Jerome's misreading of Center for Responsive Politics data was that I knew this would happen.

    Jeralyn corrected her story here. Jerome added a faint correction and then censored my post.

    In fact, Obama did not campaign in any sense of the word in Florida. There were no events. There were no local expenditures or literature or canvassing or offices despite initial and false claims made here on TalkLeft and at MyDD.

    Obama did purchase one national ad that appeared on some cable markets in FL. That is it. That is not campaigning.

    If Clinton is hanging her "popular vote argument" on the basis that Obama campaigned in Florida and the two most prominent blogs supporting her had to print retractions over false claims regarding Obama's expenditures there, that's a pretty weak reed to hang such a powerful claim upon.

    The fact is, Obama has won the pledged delegate and popular vote count in the states where every candidate campaigned, hands down.

    Parent

    Uh (5.00 / 8) (#122)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:05:26 PM EST
    According to the DNC definition of campaigning, which was explicitly referenced in the pledge signed by all candidates, running those ads was most certainly campaigning.

    Here is a link to the 2008 DNC delegate selection rules.

    A presidential candidate who campaigns in a state where the state party is in violation of the timing provisions of these rules, or where a primary or caucus is set by a state's government on a date that violates the timing provisions of these rules, may not receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state. Candidates may, however, campaign in such a state after the primary or caucus that violates these rules. "Campaigning" for purposes of this section includes, but is not limited to, purchasing print, internet, or electronic advertising that reaches a significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state; hiring campaign workers; opening an office; making public appearances; holding news conferences; coordinating volunteer activities; sending mail, other than fundraising requests that are also sent to potential donors in other states; using paid or volunteer phoners or automated calls to contact voters; sending emails or establishing a website specific to that state; holding events to which Democratic voters are invited; attending events sponsored by state or local Democratic organizations; or paying for campaign materials to be used in such a state. The Rules and Bylaws Committee will determine whether candidate activities are covered by this section.

    It is beyond dispute that Obama purchased electronic advertising that reached a significant percentage of the voters in Florida.  Your claim that he did not campaign "in any sense of the word" is based upon nothing more than your own made-up definition.  The rules, the sacred, sacred rules, conclusively demonstrate that you are wrong.

    I don't expect you to acknowledge that you were incorrect, as it seems I have seen you spreading this misinformation for quite some time.

    Parent

    he also held a news conference.. (5.00 / 4) (#203)
    by p lukasiak on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:26:18 PM EST
    in Florida in violation of those same rules.

    While both Clinton and Obama held fundraisers that were within the rules, only Obama advertized and held a news conference there.

    IMHO, the florida delegation should be seated without the Obama delegates because of his violation of the DNC rules.

    Parent

    No he didn't (1.00 / 0) (#213)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:28:51 PM EST
    He went to a fund raiser and when he left the fundraiser some reporters asked him some questions.  Hardly a press conference.

    All of this has already been addressed by the Obama campaign and the DNC was fine with it.

    Your desire to squelch the votes of Obama supporters  is duly noted but it isn't going to happen.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#232)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:37:23 PM EST
    "the DNC was fine with it?"  Are you referring to how Obama claimed he had permission to run the national ads based on the opinion of one state party chair who is now an Obama superdelegate?

    I am not going to let you guys continue making these myths.  Kid Oakland wants to make speeches about how important it is to be factual, fine, then stay factual.  I quoted the rules, there is no reasonable argument about what they say.

    Parent

    What are you talking about? (5.00 / 5) (#134)
    by MMW on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:07:52 PM EST
    Campaign ads equal campaigning that's why they are called CAMPAIGN ads.

    He outspends by how much and can't close the deal?

    On your premise, he must not have shown up in either PA or OH, cause he lost there too.

    Parent

    Yes I must have missed him (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:23:31 PM EST
    in California and Mass too.

    Parent
    Sorry (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by Radix on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:20:04 PM EST
    but the popular vote for both MI and Florida have always counted, according to the DNC. The Dnc only stipped those states of their delegates, as per their rules. We all want to obey the rules, now done we?

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#186)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:21:12 PM EST
    What did the DNC say they counted for?

    Parent
    So? (none / 0) (#96)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:57:38 AM EST
    Big deal (none / 0) (#216)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:31:23 PM EST
    Are you telling me that Obama's name was not known right after coming off a huge win in South Carolina?  And after being in the race for almost a year?

    If that's the qualification, then we need to throw out the last several elections because the Dem nominee was probably chosen without having campaigned in any state past Super Tuesday.

    Silly argument.

    Parent

    I think she's got to stay in until the convention (5.00 / 15) (#3)
    by katiebird on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:34:59 AM EST
    For one thing, no other candidate has been forced out before they were ready of their own accord to suspend their campaign.  For Hillary Clinton to be forced out as insignificant while virtually HALF the party supports her is an insult.

    Also?  I don't think Obama can make it through the summer.  McCain is already attacking him hard.  And I don't think Obama (OOO I can't run in Kentucky) can stand up to him.

    We need Hillary to pick up the pieces of his shattered campaign.

    I agree, with this proviso. Those of (5.00 / 6) (#69)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:52:52 AM EST
    us who strongly urge Clinton to stay in until the convention should be backing up our words with $$ to enable her to do so.

    Parent
    Absolutely (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by katiebird on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:55:55 AM EST
    You're absolutely right.

    Parent
    "forced out"? (none / 0) (#60)
    by seesdifferent on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:02 AM EST
    how could anyone force her out? it's a free country. Nobody is going to clap her in irons or take away her checkbook. This is a political process.

    Parent
    (snort) (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by katiebird on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:55:17 AM EST
    What a laugh!

    Parent
    All the way to the convention! (5.00 / 12) (#5)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:37:58 AM EST
    No matter how things stand on June 3rd. The popular vote can be counted in so many ways that each camp is going to claim it.  The facts will show that Obama's campaign peaked early and has been in decline in the last few months.  Hillary's campaign is only getting stronger.  I say that she and Bill and Chelsea should take a much needed vacation and come back strong for the convention. Who knows what the summer will bring?

    Absolutely. She's won 435k votes (5.00 / 19) (#6)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:38:09 AM EST
    more than Obama since the beginning of March.  Obama peaked in February.  I think he will continue to bleed support over the summer.  She's gotten stronger, he's become weaker.  I'd like see the SDs to vote for Obama, if that is what they want, and not just pledge to support him.  Hillary has become an incredible candidate for the Democrats and she knows how to win.  Really, we don't need to nominate someone who is limping toward the finish line simply because he had the better caucus strategy.  Hill has won the swing states, the swing groups and the large electorals.  She's the superior candidate.  She has the character and strength to be one of our best Presidents.  Who else could continue campaigning against narrative and win the swing state of West Virginia by 41 points?  This country would be best served with a tenacious, hyper-intelligent, well-informed policy wonk.  I just think we need Hillary.  Among the three remaining candidates she's best prepared to lead out country. And, for the sake of women, it's important she doesn't throw in the towel.  This race is too close.  She needs to see this through.

    Clinton (5.00 / 0) (#34)
    by kid oakland on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:45:30 AM EST
    has only fallen further behind in the Gallup tracking poll.

    And Obama beats McCain by 8pts in Pennsylvania per the latest Survey USA poll.

    That directly contradicts your argument that she is getting stronger and he is getting weaker.

    Clinton runs better than Obama in Appalachia. That is clear. It is not, however, an indicator of momentum or strength in other parts of the country.

    IN and NC proved that.  Oregon will likely show that again today.

    Parent

    I'm talking about votes. (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:47:51 AM EST
    She's claimed far more votes than when BO peaked in February.  

    Parent
    But --in Gallup -- she still does (5.00 / 5) (#49)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:48:23 AM EST
    better against McCain than Obama does.

    The Obama/Clinton number reflects the media narrative.  The McCain matchups reflect what the public actually wants.

    Face it.  You've nominated a candidate who is going to lose.

    Parent

    Exactly: (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:50:41 AM EST
    "The Obama/Clinton number reflects the media narrative."

    Parent
    Gallup (none / 0) (#217)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:31:26 PM EST
    might be way off because of the number of people who have left the party and gone independent.

    Parent
    She wasn't supposed to win Indiana. Obama (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:49:30 AM EST
    was by his own estimates.  She did extremely well in NC with non-african american voters.  Obama had near monolithic support from african americans who made up at least 35% of the primary electorate.  

    Parent
    So I guess we really don't (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:53:28 AM EST
    need Appalachia to win the GE!

    Wow!

    We've only needed it every OTHER Presidential election. But not this one!

    This is the bestest GE strategy EVAH!

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#118)
    by kid oakland on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:04:43 PM EST
    Clinton runs stronger in Appalachia than Barack Obama.

    That's what I wrote. It's a pretty simple point.

    Parent

    I think that point... (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by gmo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:18:24 PM EST
    ...has been dispelled enough times on this blog to no longer call it "Appalachian" problem, and continuing to call it such is getting a bit offensive.

    BTD has posted several times how the problem is not simply in "Appalachia" but also across many other states as well.  Where the "white" problem isn't prevalent is in the west, where many of the contests were held before the Rev Wright fiasco, etc.

    Just pointing out that you shouldn't limit your description of the issue to "Appalachia."

    Parent

    It's Obama's weakness that is worrisome (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:26:47 PM EST
    there and in many areas of the country.  It's not just that Clinton is stronger there -- it's that Obama is weak there to the point of near-oblivion.

    It's Obama's weakness, Obama's problem -- and his solution is to stick with adoring crowds coming for rock concerts and avoid areas where he needs voters.  That's not a solution that wins the White House.

    Parent

    How sad that you would quote a gallup poll (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by wurman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:06:18 PM EST
    with George junior so far in the GOoPer'z tank that he'd drown without even being flushed.

    C'mon, please.

    Parent

    Electoral Maps Show Obama Losing To McCain (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:17:45 PM EST
    and Clinton beating McCain. The Roolz say the GE is won by electoral votes.

    Parent
    CLINTON (none / 0) (#150)
    by delacarpa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:12:05 PM EST
    says something different to what you are saying and not reporting the true poll. People should go there and read the first paragraph and it says that Obama is tanking in many of the swing states. So since you can't believe the media, pundits, nor what you read Clinton should stay in until the end. I support her all the way and it will be a miracle if Obama can secure my vote.

    Parent
    Polls, shmolls, (none / 0) (#153)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:12:09 PM EST
    they only count when they support your position.  The only "polls" that matter are the ones that tally up the score when voters vote.

    Parent
    ummm (none / 0) (#260)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:45:56 PM EST
    that's a one for the "Appalachia" remark.  That's just another way of saying "racist" these days and I am tired of being called racist.

    National polls are not very meaningful.  Hillary is much stronger in terms of winning voters over since February and she is much stronger in terms of the electoral map.

    Parent

    Stay in! (5.00 / 14) (#7)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:38:43 AM EST
    HECK YEAH.

    Taylor Marsh has an interesting Nightline clip about women who are ticked about the sexist treatment shown during this campaign.  The media keep glossing over an important fact, though, and concentrating on HRC instead of the anger we all feel not just toward the media, but toward the DNC and Howard Dean.  They have not stood up against any of the misogyny.  Dean personally called McCain to ask him to pull the NC Wright videos, but when the Chelsea "pimp" comment came out?  When the "stay in the bathtub" Fatal Attraction comment came out?  Crickets.

    They're so blinded by anti-Clinton sentiments that they fail to see the real issue here, which is that by not taking a stand against sexism, they have firmly taken a stand against the core of the party: women.  

    I think she should stay in (5.00 / 9) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:39:42 AM EST
    until MI and FL are resolved.  if that is christmas.


    gee (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:42:43 AM EST
    proud to be in the company of all these "1" rated comments.


    Parent
    I'm giving 5 to all whom (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:47:50 AM EST
    Artoo is dinging with "1s" -- doing my part to show how meaningless they are! lol

    Parent
    Stay in of course (5.00 / 9) (#10)
    by GOPmurderedconscience on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:40:17 AM EST
    The media, in coordination with the Obama campaign, have tried to short circuit the process.

    Keep in mind that the calls for Clinton to drop out became loud right after the DC-MD-VA primaries, and that was on 2/9 (I believe). That was way before OH, TX, PA and so on.

    Moreover, Hillary supporters want her to stay in until we have a final resolution acceptable not to all, but to most Dems.

    If the Obama campaign wants to do want the likes on Andrew Sullivan is ordering them to, good luck.

    I see no reason (5.00 / 12) (#16)
    by standingup on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:42:13 AM EST
    for not allowing the remaining states and Puerto Rico their opportunity to vote in the primary.  The people have expressed a sincere desire to vote and be heard.  I am tired and disgusted with the pundits, media and party elites lack of respect and interest in the voters.    

    absolutely stay in until the convention.... (5.00 / 10) (#92)
    by p lukasiak on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:57:13 AM EST
    Clinton absolutely has to refuse to concede... its absolutely essential that she maintain at least a skeleton organization for November until the convention, because Obama will continue to decline in the polls against McCain over the summer, and Clinton cannot just "step in" at the last minute and run a successful campaign in November.

    She should also stay in so that she can have maximum impact on the party platform, and the future of the party -- especially when it comes to how nominees are selected in the future.  

    (and, I really hope she stays in and challenges lots of the caucus delegates from states that failed to follow/enforce their own rules.)

    Parent

    I Agree About Not Conceding (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by BDB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:20:47 PM EST
    But I think she has to publicly suspend if Obama reaches a majority of delegates.  Otherwise all we're going to hear all summer is how Obama will unify the party, but can't because of Clinton.

    If she publicly suspends - I agree keeping a skeleton crew together - then the things she's now being blamed for, Obama will get questioned about.  Whether the tone and nature of his campaign were ultimately divisive, why he's weak in swing states against McCain, his weakness in Florida.  

    Sure, some folks will still blame Clinton, but if she's "gone" in mid-June and Obama is struggling at the end of July, plenty of people are going to start asking why.  And that's going to be even truer if he gets a little unification bump after she suspends.

    Parent

    After the Convention (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by BDB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:21:50 PM EST
    We cannot allow Obama to kick the can until after the convention.  I can't unify now because of Clinton, so trust me, it'll all work out after the Convention.  Because if he's wrong, after the convention will be too late.

    Parent
    Stay in untile the convention! (none / 0) (#191)
    by RalphB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:22:12 PM EST
    I wholeheartedly agree with your statements.


    Parent
    Complete the primary and keep her candidacy (5.00 / 6) (#100)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:58:47 AM EST
    completely viable -- The SD's may come to their senses, and we need a backup in case Obama melts down.

    Seat FL and MI.

    Parent

    I think it is the best thing (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by TomP on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:01:33 PM EST
    for eventual unity for her to stay in through the primaries and then make a judgment on what to do.

    Perhaps, like John Edwards, she found her voice when she exiled the consultants and spoke from her heart.  Getting rid of Penn was key.

    I also am glad she is talking about the sexism that exists.  She is exactly right: sexism and racism are wrong.

    Hillary Clinton is doing a great service to all by talking about the sexism that still exists.

    Parent

    The Rest Of the States (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:27:35 PM EST
    I, too, want to see the rest of the states have a voice.  I am sick and tired of Iowa swinging so much weight so early in the campaign.  We caucused this year before the news of Rev. Wright came out.  It's hard to believe that we would have gone for Obama if we'd known about Wright.  We wound up giving him the momentum he needed to make a race out of something that should clearly have been no contest.

    This extended campaign has been a breath of fresh air, IMO.  It's long past time the people of the later states assumed their proper place in the process.

    Now, if any state would like to take over being first, you have my vote. Iowa's not doing too well lately.

    Parent

    I had the very same (5.00 / 2) (#248)
    by standingup on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:41:26 PM EST
    thoughts on Iowa just the other day.  The record on choosing a winner leaves something to be desired.  I like the idea that someone had floated on breaking the primaries into more of a regional contest.  

    I am frustrated that more are not recognizing the apparent changes in the electorate since Obama has undergone more vetting.  The prolonged primary should be signaling she is a stronger general election candidate yet many want to overlook that point.    

    Parent

    Voters Always Get to Vote (none / 0) (#130)
    by Niffari on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:06:47 PM EST
     
    They will be holding elections just as the Republicans who have long since determined a winner will be doing as well. The problem is one of perspective. The Dem Party will not hold onto or forward the idea that Clinton is a viable candidate for the nomination unless she can overtake the delegate lead. It's just not happening. What many here clearly want is some radical change in nominating procedures at the end of the game. That's not happening either.

    Parent
    Re: Radical Change (none / 0) (#225)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:33:55 PM EST
    in nominating procedures.

    That may not be happening now, but it's quite likely to happen later when it becomes apparent to the super delegates that the party is about to nominate a loser.

    Obama should be praying that Hillary stays in the race.  If she gets out, the Repubs will turn their sights on him and he will fold like a two-dollar suitcase.

    Parent

    Sexism aftermath (5.00 / 9) (#17)
    by TalkRight on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:42:15 AM EST
    It was unmistakable.
    It's been bubbling for months.
    It's reached the start of a crescendo recently.

    This is just the start...
    Now the first female vice presidential candidate in U.S. history, Geraldine Ferraro, just hinted that she may not vote for Obama if he's the nominee. It's quite a signal to send.

    ... .. Some even accuse Mr. Obama of chauvinism, pointing to the time he called Mrs. Clinton "likeable enough" as evidence of dismissiveness. Nancy Wait, 55, a social worker in Columbia City, Ind., said Mr. Obama was far less qualified than Mrs. Clinton and described as condescending his recent assurances that Mrs. Clinton should stay in the race as long as she liked. Ms. Wait said she would "absolutely, positively not" vote for him come fall.

    Ms. Ferraro, who clashed with the Obama campaign about whether she made a racially offensive remark, said she might not either. "I think Obama was terribly sexist," she said.

    Cynthia Ruccia, 55, a sales director for Mary Kay cosmetics in Columbus, Ohio, is organizing a group, Clinton Supporters Count Too, of mostly women in swing states who plan to campaign against Mr. Obama in November. ...

    Gender Issue Lives On as Clinton's Hopes Dim. Don't think Clinton's female supporters aren't listening.

    One thing is certain, Senator Obama has made a mess of this, as has his campaign. Early on, arrogantly pronouncing that he could get the vote of Clinton supporters, while he wasn't sure she could get his was the starter, with Mrs. Obama making it worse with her remarks. Obama's supporters didn't help either, attacking Clinton supporters with profanity and worse.

    There long ago began a hardening of hearts and attitudes on the Clinton supporter side, with women now determined to stiff Obama if he's the nominee (taking myself out of the equation). But they're not just going to sit out the election. Many of Clinton's supporters are planning to vote for John McCain. It's hard to believe, I know, but it's a fact.

    It's all about principle. Clinton's supporters don't understand why the woman with the big vote total is being pushed out. Brokering a nominee who refuses to count Michigan and Florida is not their idea of democracy from the Democratic Party, which they've supported for decades. Barack Obama stands for everything they've come to loathe this primary season, the sexism, his silence about it, his own complicity in it, the disrespect of Senator Clinton, the list is indelibly marked in each Clinton supporter's brain.

    There are many in the pundit class pontificating that all this rancor from Clinton supporters will go away (if Obama is the nominee). That it's just the way people feel today. They couldn't be more wrong. I should know, because few people have easier access to what Clinton's voters are feeling and saying than me. Frankly, after what I've seen this primary season, I don't blame them. It's not like Senator Obama has made any effort towards them at all. Oh, he's now asking his supporters to play nice with Clinton's 17 million plus base, because he's going to need them (if he's the nominee). I'm afraid it may be too little, too late.


    I disagree with your comment. (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by TomP on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:04:29 PM EST
    Defeating McCain is paramount.  Using sexism as a pretext for sabotaging the Democratic nominee, just as using racism if Obama were not nominated, is wrong.  

    You harm all we have fought for so many years.

    Clinton's comments on sexism are good and I hope she continues to tel the truth.

    But refusing to vote for the Democratic nominee is self defeating.  

    Parent

    Um, we happen to think that (5.00 / 4) (#126)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:06:22 PM EST
    Durbin, Daschle, Kerry, Brazile, et. al. have already sabotaged the Democrat's chances out of a pathological hatred and jealousy of the Clintons.
    One comment on a blog is not going to make a difference.


    Parent
    "we"? (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by TomP on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:08:42 PM EST
    If one comment does not matter, why do you comment.

    Indeed, your second comment also is not helpful.

    I believe in unity against McCain, whether Clinton or Obama are nominated.  It looks liek Obama now, but if it were to change and Clitnon prevail, I would advocate for unity behind her as Obama supporters screamed about Ferraro, etc.

    Parent

    I do not believe Obama is remotely (5.00 / 8) (#146)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:11:10 PM EST
    qualified to lead, by experience OR temperament.
    I agree the voters should have someone better than McCain to choose. The problem is that many Democrats will not see Obama as that choice.

    Parent
    Well, you believe that. I don't. (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:12:12 PM EST
    Others don't.

    Parent
    That is very disappointing. (none / 0) (#228)
    by TomP on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:35:52 PM EST
    If Obama is nominated, I have no doubt that Senator Clinton will both endorse him and campaign for him.  

    You're speaking out of pain and anger.  In the end, I hope you follow Hillary Clinton's wishes, which is to elect the Democratic Party nominee.  

    Parent

    No. I don't think (5.00 / 1) (#237)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:38:34 PM EST
    Obama has done ANYTHING in his nearly 50 years of life to merit the presidency.  I think he's like a Democratic Mitt Romney.  So, no, I won't support him.

    Parent
    You have changed over the last year. (none / 0) (#256)
    by TomP on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:44:15 PM EST
    It certainly is your choice.  It saddens me.  

    Parent
    condescend much? (5.00 / 3) (#238)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:38:54 PM EST
    I am not speaking out of pain or anger.  I am speaking out of betrayal and fury.  If you think I'm going to "get over it" come November, you are sorely mistaken.

    Parent
    Indeed, I ask you not to (5.00 / 3) (#243)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:39:57 PM EST
    make assumptions like "You're speaking out of pain and anger".  It's highly disrespectful.

    Parent
    That's patronizing. (none / 0) (#235)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:38:18 PM EST
    I absolutely respect Sen. Clinton's decision.
    She is a powerful member of the Party; consequently she must support Obama, or leave the Party.
    The voters have their own prerogatives.
    Yes, there is pain and anger, but it is at the thought of having such a horrible candidate---not that Clinton lost.

    Parent
    I never said that at all. (none / 0) (#254)
    by TomP on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:42:58 PM EST
    You are creating strawmen.

    I did not say she had to.  I said I know she will.  She already has said so:

    FAYETTEVILLE, North Carolina (CNN) March 27, 2008 - Hillary Clinton pleaded for partisan unity on Thursday, urging Democrats not to abandon their party to vote for John McCain if their preferred candidate fails to secure the nomination.

    Clinton was asked by a questioner in the audience here what she would tell frustrated Democrats who might consider voting for McCain in the general election out of spite.

    "Please think through this decision," Clinton said, laughing and emphasizing the word "please."

    "It is not a wise decision for yourself or your country."

    The crowd applauded loudly.

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/27/clinton-tells-democrats-dont-vote-for-mccain/


    Parent

    Let me put it another. I disagree with (5.00 / 3) (#202)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:26:02 PM EST
    McCain's politics, but I think his character is far superior to Obama's. Obama has the self-control of a teenager. I do not want him making sensitive decisions or conducting delicate negotiations.

    Parent
    You Got That Backwards (5.00 / 6) (#143)
    by SoCalHillaryMan on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:10:37 PM EST
    Obama poses the greater danger, as we don't really have a clue what he'll actually do once in office. For example: should he decide to put Social Security on the table for reconsideration, he could place the Dems in the worst position, leaving them no way to defend themselves from GOP attacks, whereas Dems would be in a stronger position to defend Social Security against McCain.

    As someone who has voted Dem all his life, I'd have to vote McCain rather than leap with a neophyte like Obama. I'd be just as bad as the GOP voters who put Bush into office if I did vote for him and the results turned out as I expected.

    Parent

    Ok, well then.... (5.00 / 1) (#219)
    by cardcarryingmember on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:32:24 PM EST
    .... so long, Roe v. Wade, it's been good to know yuh.

    Face it: electing McCain means giving him the golden opportunity to name at least an SC justice or two.  If you call yourself a feminist (as I do), you swallow your bile and vote for Obama if he's the nominee. Just like I would most DEFINITELY vote for Clinton if she, by some strange chance, winds up the nominee. And where do you get the notion that Obama would put privatization of Social Security on the table?

    Parent

    More blackmail. (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:33:02 PM EST
    I agree that blackmail is the most persuasive argument for Obama, but it won't work.

    Parent
    YAWN (5.00 / 2) (#240)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:39:10 PM EST
    Please try a new argument.  This is a tired one.

    Parent
    Thanks Tom! (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by standingup on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:12:01 PM EST
    I agree with you for the most part.  I wonder how you suggest we should take a stand against the sexism that will not only be heard but result in changes in the grand acceptance of it by the media and a good portion of the Democratic party?  

    I feel that too many party elders and elites are taking women's vote for granted because we will choose a Dem over a Republican.  How do we register our anger and feelings of betrayal with them so we don't continue down this road?  

    Parent

    Please explain (5.00 / 7) (#162)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:16:51 PM EST
    why it was ok for AAs to say that the party took them for granted and they would not vote for Hillary, and when women say it, it's self defeating?  The logic just does not make sense.  

    Parent
    I don;t understand yoru comment. (none / 0) (#242)
    by TomP on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:39:49 PM EST
    I certainly never made the statement that "ok for AAs to say that the party took them for granted and they would not vote for Hillary."

    Again, I plan to support whomever wins and is nominated.  If Clinton is nominated I would (or will be) be arguing with those who sought to portray it as racism and said they would never vote for Clinton.

    It is self defeating for anyone to vote for McCain.  

    Your strawman is blown over by a gust of Democratic unity.

    Parent

    opposing "race-boating" is paramount (5.00 / 9) (#164)
    by p lukasiak on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:17:09 PM EST
    Obama's use of "race-boating" disqualifies him from my vote.

    The fact is that Obama is not qualified to be President in any way shape or form.  He's a Democratic Bush.

    So if Obama is the nominee, I won't vote.  If you drive your car into a ditch, it doesn't matter which side of the road the ditch is on -- and in many ways, I'd prefer McCain, because at least when he drives us into the ditch on the right side of the road, in four years we can have a competent Democrat in the White House.  If Obama wins, the odds are that he will be followed by eight or more years of GOP rule....

    Parent

    Also, I think McCain will be (5.00 / 3) (#193)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:22:21 PM EST
    much more cooperative with a Democratic Congress than Bush has been. He will want to enact legislation--even sweeping reforms---to get in the history books.

    Parent
    That depends (5.00 / 11) (#207)
    by Nadai on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:26:49 PM EST
    on what you consider victory.

    I've voted for Democrats for 30 years because they were better than the Republicans on the issues that matter most to me.  But every year, the margin of what constitutes 'better' has gotten smaller and smaller.  They've stood by for years while Bush has stripped away our civil rights, they didn't even bother to fight Alito or Roberts, they've bloviated at a handful of hearings and then never followed up with any action, they've handed Bush hundreds of billions of dollars for a useless war without a shred of effective oversight.

    Still, I've gritted my teeth and pulled the Dem lever through it all, for all the good it did me or the country.  No more.  The DNC has stood silently by during the most misogynist feeding frenzy I have ever witnessed.  These aren't my people.  They've never been my people.  I was willing to give them one last shot if Clinton got the nomination - I still am.  But other than that, the whole d@mn lot of them can kiss my pasty white, low-information, uneducated hillbilly a$$.

    Parent

    Nadai (5.00 / 1) (#229)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:36:01 PM EST
    Say it, sister.  The fact that we are furious with the DNC and Howard Dean seems to get lost in all of this.  We voted for Kerry and Gore because we believed in the party.  We can't vote for Obama because we no longer believe the party stands for us.

    Why is this message getting lost in the shuffle?  They just want to paint us as a bunch of petty, hysterical women who are ticked off because we didn't get our way.

    (and Clinton still has a chance, and I am still fighting for her all the way to the convention if necessary)  

    Parent

    Voting the Party (5.00 / 2) (#250)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:42:04 PM EST
    Let me ask you something.  If a Republican voter had voted against Bush because (s)he thought he was incompetent would you condemn that voter for their ballot?

    The situation is the same for many of us.  As much as I detest the misogyny coming out of the Obama campaign, he loses my vote because I don't believe he's qualified to be President of the United States.  I think McCain's qualifications are better.

    Party does not trump all.

    Parent

    I disagree. As a woman it is self-defeating to (5.00 / 2) (#264)
    by leis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:51:43 PM EST
    reward sexism and misogyny with a vote.  And how could voting for Obama be construed as anything but acquiescence in my own oppression?

    Parent
    Unresponsive comment, I believe: Tom P (none / 0) (#157)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:13:50 PM EST
    Justice (5.00 / 4) (#141)
    by Sunshine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:09:23 PM EST
    It's not so much about Hillary anymore, it's about the women that plan to run in the future... What woman would want to set herself for this kind of treatment....  It must be stopped now!!!

    Parent
    History repeats itself in those (5.00 / 4) (#249)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:41:27 PM EST
    in the media at your link who call women taking this stance "immature," naive, etc.  They're saying, almost word-for-word, what media and Dem leaders (Wilson, etc.) and too many women said, too, against the similar strategy and tactics of Alice Paul and her National Woman's Party.

    That strategy was to go against not just individual pols but against all in the party in power that would not support woman suffrage nationwide.  So the millions of women in the states where they had suffrage stood for solidarity with their sisters who did not.

    It was a strategy that worked.  It scared a Dem President into working with the more "moderate" suffragists (same goal, just different tactics) and into finally going before Congress and switching his stance to call for woman suffrage.  

    In honor of those who won us our suffrage -- in part by also being imprisoned and tortured for exercising one of the few rights women had, to freedom of speech -- we owe it to them to use our ballots, too.  To speak in solidarity, to speak truth to power, and to defeat them at the polls -- unless they start listening and until they start getting scared.

    And no, telling their supporters to be "nice" to us is not enough.  It's laughable, it is demeaning to us once again, and it shows how out of touch a candidate and Dem leaders are with the gender that is their base, 60% of Dem voters.  They are doomed unless they start listening -- and until they start getting scared.

    Parent

    Stay in until the convention (5.00 / 15) (#22)
    by Coral on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:43:10 AM EST
    Her campaign has blazed a trail for the women who will follow on the path to the White House. If she doesn't make it, then the first one who does will owe a great debt to Clinton's perseverance, courage, and aplomb.

    I was hesitant in my backing of her at the beginning. Now I am tremendously awed by her performance, especially since she found her voice.

    A great woman who has done a great service to women everywhere by this magnificent performance.

    Take it to the convention definately!! (5.00 / 12) (#27)
    by athyrio on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:44:48 AM EST
    in the recent PEW poll, 72% of the people wanted her to stay in!!!! I concur totally!!!

    The Call for Denver in August (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by Athena on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:53:15 AM EST
    This is the call being circulated for Hillary to compete in Denver:

    ___

    The Democrats return to Denver.  What a difference 100 years makes.

    We are at a significant and historically compelling moment.

    The Democratic Convention will be occurring in Denver on Women's Equality Day, August 26, 2008.

    We look forward to celebrating the achievements of women by seeing the most successful female Presidential candidate in American history - Hillary Clinton - arrive in Denver as a leading contender for the Democratic nomination on Women's Equality Day in 2008.  That will be a historic day.

    August 26 is Women's Equality Day in the U.S. - established by Congress in 1971, commemorating the ratification of the 19th Amendment in 1920, when women achieved the right to vote.  The last time Democrats held their convention in Denver - 100 years ago, in 1908 - only men were legally allowed to vote.  Today, women now vote in record numbers - and - run for office at the highest levels of government.

    Americans have fought for gender equality and will see it continue at the Democratic Convention in Denver, where the nation will watch the most successful female Presidential candidate in American history - Hillary Clinton - compete for the nomination of her party.

    Times have changed.  They are still changing.

    ______

    womensequalitydayaugust26@gmail.com


    Parent

    Good! I spotted that Women's Equality Day (5.00 / 1) (#255)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:44:07 PM EST
    was the first full day of the Dem convention a while ago and wondered whether it would be used to rally us.  I celebrate it every year, since NOW organized women to march nationwide on the 50th anniversary of Women's Equality Day in 1970.

    We need to do that again -- marches nationwide that day, looking to Denver, for those who can't get there.

    Parent

    Yes, I do. I'm morally offended by the (5.00 / 11) (#33)
    by lorelynn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:45:27 AM EST
    campaign Obama has run. I won't vote for him. I think Clinton should stay in the race because Obama doesn't wear well. If she drops out after June 3rd, we may regret that in August.

    Please read and heed: (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:46:36 AM EST
    (If you are not a Hillary supporter, feel free to respond to her supporters' arguments, but this question is for them so limit your comments to responding to their arguments.)

    I think (5.00 / 7) (#44)
    by Nadai on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:47:48 AM EST
    she should take it all the way to the convention and fight it on the floor to the bitter, bitter end.  This country is facing an economic meltdown and neither McCain nor Obama has the ability or the will to do what will be necessary.  Clinton may not, either, but I know the other two don't.

    A fight isn't going to hurt Obama's chances - he's going to lose no matter what.  And if it hurts the Democratic Party, well, then, it does.  I care more about the country than the party.

    Absolutely (5.00 / 8) (#47)
    by blogtopus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:47:58 AM EST
    The Super Delegates have been given a rare gift, they get a chance to support a candidate based on momentum and success leading into the final GE.

    Honestly, if this was a sporting event, which team would YOU choose to represent your side: The team that peaked early in the season and is coasting to a close finish, or the team that has proven it can win not just this game but the finals?

    Seriously, no question.

    Take it all the way to the convention! (5.00 / 8) (#51)
    by MonaL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:49:14 AM EST
    I won't vote for Obama in the GE if there isn't some sign that she's been given a fair shake by him, his campaign and the party.  She has every right to take it to Denver and make the delegates accountable for their votes, publicly.  Gary Hart and Ted Kennedy went to the convention with much less chance of winning than she has.

    More importantly, it really pisses me off when Obama supporters brush her off as some insignificant gnat getting in the way of their chosen one.  And if one more of them preaches to me of her "diminished credibility" I'll spit.

    So as long as I have the cash to send her, I'll keep doing what I can to get her to Denver.

    Suspend it, don't end it (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by suzyqueue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:49:50 AM EST
    I think she should suspend her campaign, but not completely end it.  This way, if Obama has a major gaffe (which wouldn't surprise me) or if some other skeleton is unearthed, she'll be there to pick up the pieces.

    This is the last paragraph of the article: (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:50:36 AM EST
    "The irony is that candidates often find their voices once the pressure is off," said Peter D. Hart, a Democratic pollster and strategist. They are comfortable with "who they are and what they are. It comes at a point in the campaign when the candidate says this is what I want to say and this is who I am. For Hillary Clinton, as you stripped away all the varnish, the core person is the most attractive of all."

    For me, if this is the core Hillary, she's what I believed she was.

    I wonder what the core Obama really is?

    Lincoln Chafee is on WNYC right now, and discussed a lunch meeting of the 5 (Count'em, five) moderate Republican senators on the day after the decision of the Supreme Five gave Bush/Cheney the WH. Cheney was the guest/speaker for the lunch and told the moderates there about how the new administration was going to hit the ground running by doing everything they actually did do (abrogate the missile agreement, refuse to work for Kyoto, cut taxes, overturn environment, health, and safety regulations, take a more aggressive foreign policy stand, etc.).

    Chafee says that he told Cheney this was contrary to how Bush and he had campaigned -- Cheney gave the trademark crooked smile. Chafee said he wrote a letter of protest after the meeting and sent it to Bush and Cheney. No response. And no "humble foreign policy."

    What will we find from an Obama presidency, should he get the nom and win?

    I was listening to that too. (none / 0) (#230)
    by Iphie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:36:19 PM EST
    The irony, of course, being that Chafee is supporting Obama.

    Parent
    Stay in until there is a nominee. (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by gmo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:27 AM EST
    It's that simple -- it doesn't matter what date that is; all that matters is that there needs to be an agreed upon nominee, and that includes Hillary's consent as to whom that nominee is.   So I don't care what the date is -- I care that there is a definitive resolution.  That could be June 3rd, it could be the convention...hell it could even be AFTER the convention depending on what happens.  

    But the point is: there needs to be someone officially recognized as a nominee by all parties invoved, fairly. And that should include a resolution of MI/FL, the votes of all states, the votes of the superdelegates, a review of the process (if necessary), etc etc. Whatever it takes.

    Did not we have a nominee (none / 0) (#112)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:02:56 PM EST
    who dropped out AFTER he got the nomination?  Because he was tagged with a mental health issue by  bigots on that issue?  He certainly was the presumed nominee at least--so precedent has been set for changing horses in midstream.

    Parent
    Thomas Eagleton I believe (none / 0) (#136)
    by jackyt on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:08:11 PM EST
    He was McGovern's veep candidate and was replaced mid-campaign.

    Parent
    A little more than a "mental health" (none / 0) (#169)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:17:36 PM EST
    issue -- he had undergone electric shock treatment and this was the end of the 60s/70s, when there was nowhere near the amount of enlightenment about mental health problems as there is now.

    Parent
    Right, it was Eagleton (none / 0) (#188)
    by gmo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:21:37 PM EST
    My point was more that the contest doesn't ever really end until November ballots are printed with the contestants' names.   May 20th, June 3rd, the August Convention, etc etc.  is all relevant as part of a process, but is not the be-all, end-all.  What matters is what name gets printed on that ballot come November.

    Parent
    To the Convention (5.00 / 8) (#64)
    by MMW on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:33 AM EST
    Too much has been revealed about Obama after his big caucus/primary wins. The only thing propping him up is the media narrative. The repubs don't need the media to change their narratives about Obama to win. The Repubs will use their 527s to do that and Obama and the Dem establishment have given them more than enough ammunition.

    I personally cannot conceive of any circumstance under which I would support him. She needs to stay in.

    When? (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by squeaky on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:58 AM EST
    No one is quite sure when Clinton hit her stride, when she stopped caring about the polls, when she took her campaign to the people and gave voters a window into her soul.

    Seems obvious to me, it was when she dumped Mark Penn. Hiring him was her biggest mistake, imo.

    Yep, and when she elevated Maggie Williams. (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:55:09 AM EST
    Her motto:  "Let Hillary be Hillary".

    Parent
    If she can get the funds from supporters (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by Prabhata on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:54:40 AM EST
    I say, stay in.  I've donated all I can afford, but I do hope that others who can manage can go to her website and donate to make it possible for HRC to continue.  If the DNC elitist delegates were able to go beyond their sexist views, they could see that choosing HRC is the best for all.

    at this point, I'll trust her judgment (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:56:16 AM EST
    After the media crowned Obama the presumptive nominee the night of the Indiana/North Carolina primaries, I wanted her out of there. That was a protective impulse because I knew that she'd be merely stuck in the stocks for the Obama-supporters and the MSNBC boyz (and girlz) to continue to pelt her with rotten tomatoes. Sure enough, she was.

    But she stayed, took the blows, and that was the right move. She hung in there through a rough week of boos and catcalls and won WV by 41 flippin' points. And today, Obama and Michelle are making kissy sounds her way and even ARIANNA has written a piece at the odious HuffPo praising Hillary's "historic" run and her admirable grit.

    So I was wrong. I still worry that if she battles all the way through the convention, it will hurt her. At this point, it's pretty apparent that the deck is totally stacked against her because the DNC has obviously decided to support Obama, win or lose--and probably lose.

    It's a branding thing. I think the DNC wants to lose to McCain, put Iraq and Bush's other mistakes on his plate, and hold the Congress. I have no way of knowing this for sure, but it's the only explanation I can come up with for the steady stream of five-superdees-a-day flowing to Obama, even after he lost OH and PA and RI decisively, even after he lost IN (no matter how slight the margin), and even after WV gave him the statistical finger. The Democrats-in-charge want Obama to be the nominee because they (foolishly) think it will help their  brand with young people more than running Hillary. They are wrong. Not all young people congregate in Starbucks and go to college--not in this land of "two Americas."

    But I digress (sorry). I've learned to trust Hillary to know when to fight and when (if) to concede.  

    Whatever she decides, I will support. I trust her to know the lay of the land, her chances, and likely consequences of whatever move she makes at this point. And I'm behind her no matter what.

    MSM (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Upstart Crow on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:57:15 AM EST
    It's unprecedented for an annointed candidate to lose primaries, and lose by these margins.

    I wonder how much of the continued voting for HRC -- in light of the MSM's and the party's favoritism -- is a rebellion against the mainstream media, and the party.

    Stay and Suspend (5.00 / 7) (#95)
    by BDB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:57:31 AM EST
    I think Clinton should stay until the needed majority of total delegates has coalesced around Obama.  At that time, I don't think she should concede.  I think she should suspend.  And then wait and see what the summer brings.  I suspect it will bring an initial bump up for Obama and then the GOP smear machine.   I say there's a 20% chance he's roadkill by the time of the convention.  That's still not a huge chance for her, but it does let her and the rest of us see whether Obama is up to prime time.  Personally, I don't think he's up to it.  He's been least impressive, IMO, on defense.  The only real tactic he seems to know is leveraging Clinton hate, which isn't going to work against McCain.

    Of course, the GOP may keep its powder dry until September, but I don't think they will.  The winds are blowing too strongly against them, they can't afford to wait to start the smear process.

    Oh, and obviously, in exchange for not taking the fight to the convention, Clinton should use her leverage to get everything she wants at the party.  She could blow the place up in August if she wanted to.  We all know how weak the Democratic leadership is, she might as well take advantage of it.  The Republicans always do.

    Re: Stay and Suspend (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Artoo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:03:21 PM EST
    This post contains good sense. If Obama proves that he's a poor choice over the summer, then by all means, Clinton should try and take over at the convention.

    Parent
    She doesn't need to suspend... (none / 0) (#189)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:21:39 PM EST
    The media has already suspended her campaign into the margins. She can do everything you describe by just hanging around until the convention, without giving any sort of speech.  That's what Gary Hart did in 1984, until right before the convention and it was clear that Mondale had enough supers to get the nomination.

    Parent
    The GOP (none / 0) (#234)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:38:14 PM EST
    is going to keep the powder dry until after Labor Day. That is the problem. What then? Some of us are shouting that we know he's going to get killed in Nov. but it seems that no one takes heed.

    Parent
    that user has been erased (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:59:32 AM EST
    and all comments deleted.

    Artoo too? (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by BarnBabe on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:21:08 PM EST
    If the candidate's positions were reversed.... (5.00 / 6) (#102)
    by Chesserct on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:59:52 AM EST
    and Clinton was the one ahead in delegates, the media would be harping how she was "backing into the win" or "staggering across the finish line". Instead Obama is "winning convincingly" by losing 6 of 8 primaries. It's amazing that she has gotten 50% of the votes with a media that despises her and twists facts against her. Now the media is trying to crown the winner before the contest is over. Part of the reason that I would have with voting for Obama in the GE is that I have a problem with following along with what appears to be heavy media propoganda.

    Situations reversed? It would be called racist (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:18:27 PM EST
    that Obama could win the popular vote and not get the nomination. Does anyone doubt that?

    Parent
    actually the media loves the fight (none / 0) (#198)
    by seesdifferent on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:25:03 PM EST
    they want to see HRC continue. It sells.

    Parent
    Seriously? (5.00 / 2) (#262)
    by standingup on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:46:42 PM EST
    Maybe I have been following different media than you but I happen to agree with Eric Boehlert when he wrote the following in So now the press tells candidates when to quit?

    Here's another first: the press's unique push to get a competitive White House hopeful to drop out of the race. It's unprecedented.

    Looking back through modern U.S. campaigns, there's simply no media model for so many members of the press to try to drive a competitive candidate from the field while the primary season is still unfolding.

    Until this election cycle, journalists simply did not consider it to be their job to tell a contender when he or she should stop campaigning. That was always dictated by how much money the campaign still had in the bank, how many votes the candidate was still getting, and what very senior members of the candidate's own party were advising.

     

    Parent

    He!! No She Shouldn't Quit!!! (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:05:01 PM EST
    The whole discussion she whether she should quit is sexist. As media matter pointed out recently, it is completely unprecedented. He!! no she shouldn't quit!!!  She win the popular vote and let it go down in history that the first serious female candidate in history won the most votes, but was robbed of the nomination by a sexist media and a corrupt DNC.

    that's the topic (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:25:16 PM EST
    what should she do? It's not to recount and comare sexism and racism. Thanks.

    Parent
    She should stay as long as there a chance (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:06:15 PM EST
    of her getting the nomination.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  She should stay in for all of us who truly understand what this race has been about, for all of us who understand the way politics works in this country, for all of us looking for someone who has seen and done enough to have gained the experience necessary to lead, she stay in it.

    Stay In? (5.00 / 5) (#131)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:07:01 PM EST
    Absolutely.

    If she doesn't, we're going to wind up with an amateur at the top of the ticket and a loss in November.  

    Geez, how hard can it be?  We need someone with experience and leadership in the White House.  Barack Obama has neither.  He's a Johnny-come-lately who's good with pretty words but has virtually no track record.  He's mediocre in debates and none of his supporters can tell you why they support him ("Issues?  We're supposed to look at issues?") but they'll happily walk the Democratic party off the plank to do so.  

    No question she should stay in.  She's the only hope we have of winning the GE.

    Why should she get out before the convention? (5.00 / 5) (#135)
    by Buckeye on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:07:56 PM EST
    Nobody knows what will happen to BO by then.  6-8 weeks ago, the country did not know Reverend Wright from a hill of beans.  We also did not know Ayers.  What about another "bitter" speech from him or his wife?  What do the repubs have on BO (believe me, they have stuff...).  If she quits and concedes the nomination, the Dems are stuck with BO regardless of what happens.  She should stay in until she is not nominated which will not happen until the convention.  My two cents...

    If (none / 0) (#145)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:10:46 PM EST
    some massive scandal hits Obama, as so many of you seem to be hoping and praying for, Hillary would certainly be able go the the convention and appeal for the nomination, as could anyone else that felt the urge to do so.

    Conceding and suspending operations is pretty much the same thing except that the latter would allow some supporters to continue the fight onward on their own if they wanted to.

    Parent

    Given that she is now ahead in the (5.00 / 3) (#152)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:12:06 PM EST
    popular vote count, there is absolutely no reason for her to suspend her campaign.

    Parent
    Obama is not going to hold up. (none / 0) (#158)
    by Buckeye on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:13:56 PM EST
    The big question is, when will the Dem Party come to this realization?  Before or after they are stuck with him?

    Parent
    You are very right (none / 0) (#212)
    by Sunshine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:28:19 PM EST
    All of this is true and all of it was known by the people in the media...  The web site of the Trinity Church of Christ was there all the time and there were plenty of regular people that were questioning this with the media, finally ABC stepped up and reported it... This was not the place of the Democrats to put out but they should of took into consideration when some of the highest rated SD's endorsed him knowing all this.... Now they want to turn to women, who have been dissed from the beginning, and get their help putting some more lipstick on the pig and maybe doing some more covering up...

    Parent
    Ferraro said exactly what Obama himself (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:08:37 PM EST
    said. Moreover, what she said pales next to MacClaskill's (sp) and Kerry's remarks.
    Saying she was happy to have a black candidate who was not a victim?? Ugh.
    And Kerry said that Obama was more qualified to conduct foreign policy because he's black.
    Your double standard is painful.

    Gosh (5.00 / 3) (#245)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:40:48 PM EST
    Please educate us.

    In all the accounts I've seen of the 1984 election, the theory that Mondale would have won with a different VP has received remarkably little play.  I would be grateful if you would explain just how she "cost us the election."

    Parent

    I would rather (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:10:39 PM EST
    nominate  candidate that was peaking now than one who peaked in Feb.

    The plan for HRC ought to be (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by outsider on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:11:22 PM EST
    (1) Say in til the convention.  But...

    (2) After the conclusion of the last primary, devote the vast majority of her time attacking McCain.  Demonstrate willingness to tag-team with Obama to take McCain on.  This shows unity, reassures people who are worried about the party if this goes to the convention, and gives a flavour of how strong a unity ticket could work (on either variant).  If Obama won't be part of it, and insists on doing his own thing, then I guess we'll have found out a little more about who he considers his main enemy this year.

    A question I'm not sure about is, assuming she does all this, what would make it reasonable for the SDs to give her victory.  I reckon it's acceptable with any kind of popular vote win, but it would sure be a lot more convincing if she could claim a popular vote win whilst giving Obama all the uncommitted votes from MI as a favour.  Anyone have any idea whether this is possible by the end of voting?

    Skip McCain, push the issues. (none / 0) (#182)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:21:03 PM EST
    And if McCain and the issues coincide, great.

    Pushing the issues hard will keep the pressure on Obama to keep up, and who knows?  It might be good for him and he may actually learn a thing or two.

    Yeah.  I like that.

    Hillary?  Show Obama how it's done!  He needs help.

    Parent

    Stay in (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Emma on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:14:30 PM EST
    Definitely stay in.  She is a legitimate candidate, dropping out at any point before a nominee is decided at the Convention moves women, the Democratic Party, and women in the Democratic Party backwards.  There are long-term gains to be made by staying in, even if she doesn't get the nomination at the Convention.  

    Nobody but NOBODY gets to shout women out of the public venue.  Period.

    Stay in. (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:17:53 PM EST
    She has nothing at all to gain by quitting.

    Heck, for all the shouts of "Drop out!" (and worse), I have yet hear anyone talk about giving Clinton any kind of condolence prize.  No recognition, just jeering.

    I mean, for pity's sake folks, give the woman some kind of carrot, some kind of "Good show!", "Now there's a great Democrat!".  Anything?  Bueller?

    The only reason I can see for her to end it would be just cold, hard cash.  The people who respect her now, will still respect her for pushing the issues to the end.  The people who "dislike" her, will not like her any better.

    She should stay in until (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:19:20 PM EST
    all votes are counted.  If SDs start to support her or the press narrative changes she should stay completely in until the convention.
    If there is a flock of SDs to Obama and the press continues it's dereliction of duty she should suspend campaign (not quit).  Then when Obama shows he cannot win there may be a move towards her to activate her campaign.  
    If the party continues to support Obama they (not we) will lose in November.  She can run against McCain in 2012.
    I will be voting McCain if Clinton is not the nominee.  Not because I do not like Obama (I despise the man) but because he is incredibly unqualified for the job.  Having him in office for four years (that's all he would get) would give us 8-16 more years of Republican rule.

    Long time lurker (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by wxyz01 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:19:41 PM EST
    My first comment will be short and sweet.

    She should definitely stay in!!

    Up to her (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by Foxx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:21:09 PM EST
    But a huge amount of money has essentially bought this nomination for Obama. And it didn't come from small donors. The SDs are going for him because they have been bought and I do not expect them to make the right decision.

    What is important is that women and others who understand how huge this loss is for the country commit ourselves to cleaning up the democratic party. I was going to resign, but right now I'm planning to vote against every one of them.

    The Movement (5.00 / 2) (#208)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:27:20 PM EST
    Look, if the Movement is so powerful and compelling why all the fuss to get our help and the Clinton help.  Go, on, fight McCain.  No one is stopping you.  Hillary has to show Obama that if he wins, he will not have all the power in the party.  The Movement needs to be put in its rightful place.  It is a part of the Democratic party.  It does not have a mandate.  It has to share power.  It cannot bully and it has to recognize the voters of Florida and Michigan.  

    This party cannot be remade into the image of  the plastic Axelrod nothingness or it will be doomed into the Rovian collapse of the Republican party.  

    So step aside and stop it with the Movement and recognize that you have to share because you had no mandate from the voters.  

    Stay In (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by fctchekr on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:27:59 PM EST
    The Democratic party has already shown its own rules have been arbitrarily changed, maybe the rules that were broken can punish states in some way, but they shouldn't punish voters.
    Leaders of the Democratic party have not conducted this election in a fair and professional manner, by coming out preferentially for one candidate over another.
    Despite earnest efforts by the Clinton campaign to have votes counted Obama didn't cooperate.
    He has amassed ill will amongst half the electorate which has been exacerbated by comments made my DNC officials like Brazile who said we don't need you (those who don't support Obama)to win the election.

    There have been so many PR missteps by the DNC and the Obama camp that any resemblance to a fix, winning over Hillary's voters is NIL.

    What five months of political rancor has done begs the question: whether Obama can pull the party back together. Despite pundits writing about it and talking about it like it was a given, a pre-ordered fix, a spell he could divine to switch millions of Hillary supporters to him.

    We're talking about 5 mos of acrimony which has culminated in at least a quarter of both Clinton and Obama's supporters refusing to vote for the other candidate, instead switching to McCain or not voting.

    It's not a given, in other words, it won't fall out of the sky or result from natural selection, because it's unnatural; it's an intangible that can't be measured by pollsters. But it's a fair bet that with the electorate split in half, Obama actually has two opponents, not one. Funny, the pundits have never characterized it that way. And for good reason, most are in the tank for Obama.

    There has never been a primary before, in recent history, where one party's electorate was so impaired, so divided, not just by one or two differences, but by gender, race, socio-economics, values and regional dissimilarities. The curative will not come from speech making or huge rallys, it won't come from endorsements, or a media double standard, it won't come from any measure by which Obama has made his case successfully to half the electorate.

    So, how will the presumptive nominee unite the party? The rift is so expansive, it would be impossible to win over the other's base. Despite that reality he's pitching it, with all its unreasonableness, its improbability, as if it was an eventuality? Ridiculous.

    Try to find a pundit who's even attempting a discussion of what should be front and center, but is a no go. The reality: each camp is equally uncomfortable with the other's, not exactly a winning coalition.....

    Hillary should stay in because the scant numbers that he is ahead doesn't in anyway legitimize a candidate who has failed to close the deal ....not just numerically but spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, with half of the Democratic party...

    All the way (5.00 / 1) (#221)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:32:39 PM EST
    to the convention. If the Democratic Party is so fragile it can't take that then it really is a party of wimps.

    And I'm still waiting for all the wonderful things that our voting Democrats into power in 2006 was gonna bring. What have they done for us?
    How have they governed effectively? How are we better off with the Democrats in power than we were before?

    I'm sure Conyers at least is grateful he doesn't have to hold meetings in broom closets anymore.  

    Please Stay in.... (5.00 / 0) (#223)
    by kc on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:33:11 PM EST
    Just read more Ayers junk-current stuff- on Rezkowatch.blogspot.com

    Don't know if there is traction there, but you can bet the GOP will check it out. About the Annenberg Challenge in Chicago.

    Really? (5.00 / 3) (#247)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:41:21 PM EST
    Who's going to do that? The Democratic Party?  HA HA - they are so weak, they can't even impeach a crook in the WH.

    Sure, ok.

    Oh, please (5.00 / 5) (#252)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:42:33 PM EST
    you think Clinton's going to get challenged for her senate seat?  By whom, the blogger boys?  She's got a 65% approval rating in NY.  Even the rural population love her.

    Ask Ned Lamont how that works.

    To the convention floor in Denver! (5.00 / 0) (#253)
    by feet on earth on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:42:41 PM EST
    Please Hillary stay in, stay strong, rise and shine.

    She is the last and only candidate that can take the party away from the Dems insiders who selected Obama for the same reason the Reps selected GWB in 2000 and give it back to the people.

    Thinking the political landscape was going to give them an unprecedented win, the party elitists/insiders went for a coup-stile campaign and selected Obama as a maneuverable front and Donna Brazile as their mouthpiece to take the party in the IVORY TOWER direction.   They have sold to their ambition all basic social-democracy principles of a just society where the less fortunate are protected by a strong safety net.

    Their game has been exposed, they are out there naked now because ordinary people are smarter that  all of them put together with their university degrees and false doctrine.

    All the way to the convention is our only way to restore the party, the safety net we need and our economy.  

     

    As an Obama supporter... (5.00 / 1) (#257)
    by Carl Tillman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:44:48 PM EST
    I think Hillary should stay in. A few people have pegged it - if the Democratic party can't handle it, then something's wrong. It's not in the rules that one candidate has to leave.

    I also don't think Barack was being condescending when he said Hillary should stay in. I feel as if many of you are simply either misunderstanding his words or tone. That Clinton can do as well as she is doing commands respect, and I think Obama has it for her - he's just playing his cards as any politician would.

    Some of you are getting upset at things that I don't think many people at all, including Obama, realize that you think is sexist. Let him know how you feel - either independantly or as a collective - and see if he changes. Just saying you don't like him and won't vote for him because of it is silly, especially when their policies (IE what matters) are so close.

    I've disagreed with a lot of things BOTH candidates have done over the course of this campaign. Neither of them are saints, I doubt many people alive would even qualify. They will both have their mistakes, and do - and you can either hang on to those mistakes and punish them for it or you can recognize them for what they are - mistakes - and look past them.

    It's true - you could strongarm or blackmail the DNC by saying that all Hillary supporters won't vote for Barack. Hillary herself has already condemned this. You could vote for someone else in the GE, which is your right, and attempt to force Obama to lose, which he might. You could point at him and laugh, saying "see, you should have listened to us and made Clinton the nominee." That won't get the values you wanted into the White House, that will get John McCain's values into the White House. If that's what you truly want, then by all means do what you feel is right. Just please don't do something that you will regret in the next few years after the winner's policies take effect.

    Go to Convention (5.00 / 1) (#270)
    by LadyDiofCT on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:30:56 PM EST
    Pelosi said that FL and MI would be seated but only if it didn't change the results of the primary delegate math.  Now THAT'S Democracy Nancy!!  The fix has been in since January.  Not only should Hillary stay in till June 3rd, I think she should take it to Convention.  It's time these spineless dems in the leadership, and  these so-called super delegates have to stand up and tell the whole party, and especially Clinton supporters, why Obama should be the crowned 'king of the party' (Roger Simon's quote, not mine).

    This should (5.00 / 1) (#272)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:49:40 PM EST
    go to the convention.  

    If she drops out in June it will leave Obama wide open and exposed to GOP attacks for more than two months. Obama can't tolerate the scrutiny of a long race as we've seen since March.

    After Indiana and Obama's much weaker showing in North Carolina I've felt he should drop out. He's losing momentum and I believe we're not even close to the bottom.

    If she drops out then the convention may fumble about looking for a way to re-present or back off Obama.

    The SDs don't actually cast their ballots until the convention and however matters stand on June 3 it will still be too close to simply fold.

    media (5.00 / 1) (#274)
    by tedsim on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:32:10 PM EST
    I wish senator kennedy good health,although i think he is on the wrong side this time.It's obvious that the media is going to step on Hillary's big win in Kentucky with the Kennedy story.I had the honor of shaking hands with bobby and Jack Kennedy in 1959 when he was running for president on a sidewalk in framingham massachusetts.I was a carpenter at the time and when we heard President Kennedy got assasinated there wasn't a dry eye on the job.It still bothers me.I am 68 years old.

    At least sexism gets talked about (1.00 / 5) (#54)
    by Dadler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:49:43 AM EST
    We are INFINITELY more f*cked up about race.  She has endured some very shabby coverage and commentary, but at least we can talk about it openly and frankly.  Frank discussions of race simply do not happen in this country on any large scale.  When was the last time you heard two white people talking about their own racial paradigmns and prejudices in a thoughtful manner?  Uh...never.

    I like Hillary, I'd vote for her in a heartbeat and happily, but the sexism she faces is far less insidious and corrosive than racism.  And, in fact, the backlash against it has probably helped her.  That's a nice irony.  But let's be honest: racism is far more likely to impact Obama than sexism is to impact Hillary in this race.  Because it has always been more difficult to be black than to be a woman, unless you're both.  And neither, obviously, is.

    Huh? (5.00 / 6) (#62)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:15 AM EST
    Ya know, this is so typical (5.00 / 13) (#111)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:02:43 PM EST
    We start to talk about sexism, and someone launches an argument that racism is worse.  This is not a competition (though, if it were, I would direct you back to cave drawings from the stone age where women are being dragged around by their hair).

    Frederick Douglass told Elizabeth Cady-Stanton "it's not your time."

    When will it be our time?  When will women be "allowed" to stand up against sexism without having to "compete" with other -isms?

    Parent

    Exactly -- it's not a contest (5.00 / 0) (#160)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:14:10 PM EST
    I think BTD said that a week ago. It is such a false analogy because (1) one doesn't have to be worse for the other one to be bad and (2) anyone can make a case that "something else" is worse -- for example, you know what's worse then racism? Genocide and ethnic cleansing. I'd even put female circumcision as pretty much on par (if not worse) then racism. Anyone who doesn't agree with me on these three, please explain to me how genocide, ethnic cleansing and female circumcision is better than racism. So, you boys who want to compete about who "has it worse" can stick it -- at least this country acknowledges that racism exists, which is more then I can say for its attitude about sexism.

    Parent
    You would bring up (none / 0) (#115)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:04:12 PM EST
    events that occurred before recorded history as evidence that sexism is worse?  

    Parent
    Um, cave drawings = (5.00 / 6) (#123)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:06:09 PM EST
    recorded history. Sure, not the same as the "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" but it is a record of history.

    Parent
    HAHAHAHAHA!!! (none / 0) (#200)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:25:24 PM EST
    Good one, Angie.  Oh, that's hilarious.  Yes, I would say that's exactly what recorded history is all about.

    Parent
    Prehistory (none / 0) (#227)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:34:59 PM EST
    The time before recorded history

    Some drawings on the wall with no indication of a language of any sort are hardly examples of recorded history any more than find a club or loin cloth is.

    Parent

    you have it backwards (5.00 / 4) (#128)
    by boredmpa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:06:38 PM EST
    Racism is noticed and shunned by the press--and it is shunned extensively.  It is not discussed well, but it has played out in this campaign and the nytimes strongly focused on racial bias in white voting (on many occasions) and ran op-eds comparing the 3am ad to a KKK movie.  There has been an immense amount of coverage and visibility--that is a precursor to dialogue.  And though it may not reach wide readership, the Op-Eds by bob herbert frequently provide insightful discussion on racism in NYC.

    Misogyny and sexism have absolutely not been heavily covered in this campaign, partly because the talking heads are mostly misogynistic/sexist in their terminology.  There can be no dialogue because there is no topic to discuss.  

    Racism, though a taboo topic to introspect upon as you suggest, is at least a visible topic.  Misogyny, not so much.  And sexism, not at all.

    Parent

    If it's a contest, racism loses. (5.00 / 1) (#239)
    by wurman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:38:56 PM EST
    Shirley Chisolm, Member of Congress, New York--12th District (b. 11/30/1924, d. 1/1/2005).

    -Of my two "handicaps" being female put more obstacles in my path than being black
    -I've always met more discrimination being a woman than being black.

    Sen. Clinton has both destroyed many barriers & at the same time produced an environment in which frightened little men feel it's legitimate to speak & write in ways that they would not do in front of their mother, sister(s), or wife (wives).

    Parent

    I thought I heard... (none / 0) (#129)
    by jackyt on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:06:40 PM EST
    Obama promise just such a discussion. Since the speech... crickets.

    Parent
    Choice is clear: Clinton or McCain (none / 0) (#104)
    by Davidson on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:00:14 PM EST
    She must take it to the convention if the superdelegates don't give her the nomination in June.  Obama is doomed to fail horribly against McCain while Clinton would likely win.  This goes beyond her: it's about avoiding disaster as a Party and as a country.  If she's not at the top of the ticket, I shudder to think of the consequences.

    And yes, the fact that the first serious woman candidate would've been our first woman president--and hell of a one at that--if it wasn't for the DNC thwarting the will of the people is certainly an additional reason.

    Absolutely, all the way (none / 0) (#105)
    by kaffied on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:00:23 PM EST
    to the convention.

    Why she has to fight (none / 0) (#121)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:05:08 PM EST
    to the convention.  

    Half of the voters, if not more will have voted for her.  Obama and his camp will shut her and her supporters out and silence us, then demand obedience with threats.  She has to take it to the convention to get any kind of concessions if not the nomination.  It will be for nothing to stop now.  Obama needs to be kept in check along with his alleged movement.  They cannot have unilateral control of the Democratic party.  It's that simple.  

    To the convention! (none / 0) (#156)
    by davnee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:12:49 PM EST
    That's what I recommend.  She can suspend in June if she feels that is best, but she better not release those delegates.  Frankly I think she should stay in, even if she thinks it is a lost cause in order to get veto power over the VP pick and force concessions on BO's policies.

    If she suspends (none / 0) (#263)
    by DJ on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:48:03 PM EST
    she leaves Obama alone to face the Republican machine.  If she is still actively in it the Obamanots and the MSM will continue to blame her.

    Parent
    I want her to continue (none / 0) (#159)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:14:08 PM EST
    But of course I am biased.  I don't support Obama and I wouldn't vote for Obama without Clinton on the ticket if he were to get the nom.  

    The question for me is how the process plays out.  Clinton has GE money, why not just start campaigning for the GE as Obama is doing without the nom?  Go for it.  She'll pull some of the Repubs attention off Obama.  The media can rant about Clinton for the next months instead of vetting Obama.

    Will the immediate weeks after June 3 be spent watching media trot out every Tom, Dick and Jane Obama supporter that opposes a joint ticket?  I know they won't give equal time to those that want a joint ticket.

    I would like a brokered convention.  Threats of what could happen at a convention don't bother me.  I want to see delegates filmed for posterity, how they came to make their decision. This whole process is fodder for many sociology papers.

    I do not see (none / 0) (#165)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:17:13 PM EST
    how Hillary continues her campaign after June 3.  I am not disagreeing with any of the sentiments here, I just don't see how it can happen that way.

    Where will she campaign and what will she campaign about?  Will she go around campaigning against Obama even though there are no more votes to win?  Or will she ignore Obama and campaign against McCain as though she had, somehow, already been named the Democratic nominee?

    I support her staying in.  It's her decision.  I just don't believe it will happen.

    She's already agreed to make (none / 0) (#192)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:22:21 PM EST
    joint appearances with Obama as requested by McGovern now.  She will make her case against McCain and I absolutely hope she continues and does just that.  It's too close for her to just give up.  She needs to take it to convention, which is typical of candidates no where near as close as Hillary.

    Parent
    I don't see how HRC (none / 0) (#259)
    by brodie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:45:29 PM EST
    and O would make joint appearances unless she's dropped out and endorsed O.  Certainly would make for a confusing picture, and O wouldn't likely want to encourage such confusion.

    I would prefer she be able somehow to stay in until Denver, but unless her team really picks up this argument and runs with it hard on the airwaves, which I haven't seen so far, she's going to just be creamed in the PR dept, labeled a Divisive Dem a Sore Loser and the like.  

    Delegates, SDs, party elders and even some of her softer supporters will be out there insisting she concede post-June 3 (assuming no major upsets in the last contests) and get about the business of party unification.

    Parent

    We'll see how things shape up in early June (none / 0) (#167)
    by lilburro on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:17:16 PM EST
    if there's a convincing popular vote argument to be made on her part, I think she should go for it.  But I actually think Obama would particularly benefit from having the summer and fall to campaign in the GE.  He may need all the time he can get.  September and October as the only two full months of GE campaigning with the authority of the nominee may not be enough.  I say this because it has been acknowledged that Obama, compared to Clinton, is quite a risk regarding the electoral map.  I think he will have to do a lot of campaigning to ensure he wins the states he needs.  Basically, the only person who is going to deliver Colorado to Obama is Obama, unless I'm unaware of a mighty Dem leader there (is Bill Ritter comparable to Rendell, for instance?).  Of course he will also have to reach out to the Dems that have voted for Clinton in a concerted way.

    I'd like to see Hillary spend June, if she has no good pop. vote argument, extorting a stronger emphasis on universal healthcare from Obama.  The Unity ticket does not have to be a sham; it could be really good if it actively incorporates Hillary's campaign.

    Wow, you really think.... (none / 0) (#241)
    by cardcarryingmember on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:39:44 PM EST
    that Obama needs all the time he can get to campaign? What an amazing idea, the notion that a candidate is more likely to win if he's sealed up the nomination earlier rather than later. Let's see, the last time we had major conflict at a Democratic convention was 1980, when Ted Kennedy caused a migraine or 400 for JC. As I recall, it resulted in not just a "victory" for the other side, but a "revolution."

    Parent
    I'm of two minds (none / 0) (#179)
    by ajain on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:20:23 PM EST
    I think it is getting increasingly hard for her to stay in and remain viable because she does not have a great shot at being the nominee. The conversation has mosty shifted and today's gallup shows that she is losing support among her core constituencies.

    On the other hand, whenever she exits it is going to be annoying for her supporters and the later she does it, the easier it may be.

    I think she has to do something very dramatic to be able to stay in as a viable candidate. She has to change the conversation and be at the center of that conversation. Otherwise she will Huckabee and I doubt that is what she wants.

    She should stay in. (none / 0) (#218)
    by alright on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:31:59 PM EST


    Comments now closed (none / 0) (#258)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:45:07 PM EST


    Stay in... (none / 0) (#261)
    by NWHiker on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:46:40 PM EST
    Take it to the convention.

    At this point, despite desperately wanting to be think it's possible, she doesn't have much of a chance, it seems that the SDs are determined to have Obama, no matter what. I'm honestly betting that even if the pledged delegates hadn't turned out to be, essentially, tied, the SDs would have gone with Obama.

    Still, take it there, make them stand up and own up to what they are doing, when it's quite clear that she's the better candidate.

    Yes (none / 0) (#265)
    by nellre on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:55:07 PM EST
    If it were not for the stupid and unnecessarily complicated way the delegates are assigned, she'd already have won.
    I don't think Obama can beat McCain, but I think Hillary can.

    Whomever wins the nom... the other half will feel cheated. It's a tie folks... and something's got to give.

    Stay In (none / 0) (#271)
    by tree on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:35:40 PM EST
    I think she should stay in, and just suspend after all the primaries have ended. She needs to stay in until there is an equitable resolution of FL and MI and she needs to keep her coaltion going through the convention because there are other important matters decided there beyond who will be the Presidential nominee. There are platform issues and issues about how the party should conduct itself in the future that are very crucial to the continued viability of the party and what it should be standing for.

      She's still got battles to fight before the convention is done and its time to move on to the GE. You go, girl!

    Absolutely... (none / 0) (#273)
    by hillaryboy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:29:22 PM EST
    Hillary should most certainly take this thing to the convention.  Her string of wins so late in the game is reason enough for her to keep fighting.  Obama is already campaigning against McCain, so I don't see the argument that her staying in would harm him.  You would also have the added benefit of both of them going after McCain all summer.  The DNC needs to stop trying to dictate the outcome of this race.  

    androgynous (none / 0) (#275)
    by pluege on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:03:01 PM EST
    Not a fan of HRC policies
    Big fan of HRC as a person (from I know of public persona)
    Big hater of the sexist treatment she has received
    Prefer HRC over the other two choices
    Will vote for Obama if he is the dem nominee (can't stand the thought of more republicanism)

    Opinion:
    HRC should stay in until the democratic party picks a nominee.

     

    I'm late to the party, but I say (none / 0) (#276)
    by annabelly on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:38:12 PM EST
    Take it to the convention, for all the reasons listed above. The only other options is to resolve it this sumer by running them together, which I still think is what they'll do. If they don't, I'm re-registering as unaffiliated, because I will not support willful ignorance and willful losers. We've had enough of that on BOTH sides for seven and a half long years.

    Meanwhile, at TPM, the fellers have (none / 0) (#277)
    by bslev22 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:54:59 PM EST
    as their top recommended reader post, something called, get this,"'Sweetie" Happens To Men, Too":

    http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/sweetie-happens-to-men-too.php

    It's a really compelling story about a guy who got called sweetie in the diner and he didn't even really feel humiliated.  I guess underlying all of this is: "what's wrong with all you girls?  Don't you like being called nice names like sweetie and honey"?

    Stay until the convention (none / 0) (#278)
    by Belle on Tue May 20, 2008 at 05:49:10 PM EST
    Hillary should stay in. Many other candidates have stayed in until the convention with far fewer delegates.