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House Leadership: Gas Tax Holiday DOA

Jonathan Singer writes:

According to The Hill's Jared Allen and Jackie Kucinich, the House leadership, most members of which have not endorsed in the presidential race, are calling the [gas tax holiday] plan "DOA", or dead on arrival. Specifically, both Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer have spoken on the record as to their opposition to such a move.

While this is good imo (Jeralyn favors the gas tax holiday), it is funny how they can not declare FISA telco immunity DOA or how they could never declare Iraq funding without a date certain DOA. I have little respect for the leadership of Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer.

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  • Display: Sort:
    "leadership" LOL n/t (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by DJ on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:34:50 PM EST


    Gas tax relief would have been little help, but (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Exeter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:35:15 PM EST
    it would have been some help--especially to the poor and truckers, who are hit very, very, very hard.

    Everybody repeat after me (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:37:14 PM EST
    A "tax holiday" would not lower prices because the oil companies would just raise the prices back to market rate and pocket the savings.  So no, it would  likely not even be "some help" to the poor and truckers and would be considerable help to Exxon, Chevron, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    it would likely not even be "some help" (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:42:23 PM EST
    fact is
    you dont know that and I doubt you have to chose between food and gas.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't trust me (1.00 / 0) (#15)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:46:11 PM EST
    Trust just about every expert out there who says the same thing.  Do you think McCain proposed this because he wants to help people who have to choose between food and gas?  Just because the Clinton campaign disagrees with all the experts (and who does that remind you of) doesn't make it true.

    [ Parent ]
    I suppose Nancy should (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:47:59 PM EST
    come out against Obama's healthcare policy then too. Since every expert I've heard from on the subject tells me that there is no doing universal healthcare without mandates. But I hear nothing of the sort from our leadership on that particular front.

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#23)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:52:13 PM EST
    I bet if Obama were stupid enough to introduce his Health Care proposal in the Senate next week and then declare everyone was either with him or with the big health care/pharma/insurance industry and needed to pick sides, you might see some of the same "DOA" reactions from legislators.  You might also see some superdelegates get a little testy at that sort of divisive rhetoric.

    Good thing he won't be silly enough to grandstand like that.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh no. (none / 0) (#29)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:56:37 PM EST
    Obama is just stupid enough to put this healthcare proposal up as his platform as President of the United States.  And you'd see them all capitulating to him the exact way they do now. The same way the also now see how Reagan was a great guy and how everything till now was Bill's fault.  You'd see that for sure.   Why isn't Nancy saying in her power position in the House that we need universal healthcare and Obama's plan is crap-ola as per the experts in the field?  I guess we wouldn't want her to hurt her candidate, now would we?

    [ Parent ]
    So why do you think (none / 0) (#32)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:58:33 PM EST
    So why do you think Nancy isn't for Hillary?

    [ Parent ]
    history (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:00:05 PM EST
    use the google

    [ Parent ]
    I understand what you mean (none / 0) (#41)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:02:28 PM EST
    but when given the choice between Obama and Hillary, why do you suppose she might not be for Hillary?

    [ Parent ]
    Because she knows (none / 0) (#43)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:12 PM EST
    she'll hold more power with Obama at the top. Because she didn't like that she told Hillary not to go to China in 1995 and she went anyway and made a wonderful splash and spoke out against human rights violations there.  She doesn't like that those trashy Arkansas NOT blue-blood Clintons didn't kiss her San Fran bu** when they were in Washington.

    And gawd forbid another woman be in a higher position of power than her.  She's the top dog.

    [ Parent ]

    "more power with Obama" (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:08:47 PM EST
    exactly right.


    [ Parent ]
    I agree with Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:57:14 PM EST
    I am a little tired of people who dont need to worry about buying gas or what they buy in the supermarket sneering at attempts to help those that do.
    THAT is very republican.
    and as far as the "experts".
    calling any economist and expert is a stretch as far as I am concerned.  it is closer to astrology than anything else.

    [ Parent ]
    And by the way (none / 0) (#37)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:00:34 PM EST
    I can't afford a car.  I have to adjust how much food I buy the week after I pay my rent.

    So let's be a little careful when tossing around charges of elitism.

    [ Parent ]

    so you dont have a car (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:01:59 PM EST
    explains why you dont care about gas.

    [ Parent ]
    He should care about the price of oil (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:08:36 PM EST
    It's affecting food prices, heating costs, and so much more.

    (Not saying he does't; it's just not only about cars.)

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry (none / 0) (#45)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:58 PM EST
    I realize that I'm urban working class instead of suburban working class so my concerns don't count around here.

    [ Parent ]
    No one is saying that. (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:06:45 PM EST
    But millions of Americans ARE affected by gas prices.  Maybe not you. But MOST of us are.  

    [ Parent ]
    the POINT is (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:06:54 PM EST
    many people who have cars cant afford to buy gas and have to work and feed families.
    anything that could possibly help them, even a little, is worth trying.
    what is the huge risk we are taking?  the oil companies may make a little more money?
    they wont even notice.


    [ Parent ]
    meaning? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Florida Resident on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:11:03 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You definitely (none / 0) (#44)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:18 PM EST
    have a valid point there.

    [ Parent ]
    "Experts" don't have to choose between (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by mrjerbub on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:26:32 PM EST
    gas & food IMO, she's most likely thinking: How about a little help for the little guy. These people aren't going to get a stimulus check. They're still americans. Who cares about them? Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    Are you serious? (none / 0) (#22)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:52:01 PM EST
    Just because the Clinton campaign disagrees with all the experts (and who does that remind you of)

    In this instance, she disagrees, but she's like Bush?

    Unbelievable.  Get help.


    [ Parent ]

    That's silly. (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:49:34 PM EST
    There's no "market price" for gasoline or, if there is, we haven't reached it yet (as witnessed by the continued purchase of gasoline at whatever price).  It's possible that the refineries (which are hurting, by the way, from the oil price squeeze) may raise prices.  But you don't know that, and it wouldn't be the "oil companies" that would do the raising.

    It's quite likely that the 18.4 cent difference would disappear into the normal ups and downs (these days, mostly ups) of gas prices.  I don't think this is a particularly good idea (fiscally -- it may be a political winner) but no one is really able to pontificate on what would happen to that 18.4 cents per gallon.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree-- Gas prices went down 3% (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Exeter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:13:20 PM EST
    in Illinois, when in 2000, Obama voted to have a six month gas tax holiday of the state's 5% sales tax.

    [ Parent ]
    Gas has proven to sell at its current rate... (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Addison on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:39:07 PM EST
    ...the gas tax would be cut, then distributors, gas station owners, and refineries would all take their nibble immediately (why not?) and consumers would see none of the 18 cents.

    They would see a lot more potholes on the interstate, bridge collapses, and unemployed road contractors and construction workers in the next few years.

    [ Parent ]

    NO (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by jedimom on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:11:04 PM EST
    No the road funds are safe under Hillarys plan she wants it linked to a windfall profits tax on oil cos

    guess what I just heard on Kudlow CNBC Sen Obama has proposed a windfall profits tax on oil cos, ahhh yes where have I heard that...HILLARY

    Also Obama is bundled by Excelon who would LOVE gas prices to stay high and oil as well so they can push thru nuke power....

    [ Parent ]

    how many times does (none / 0) (#193)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:19:04 PM EST
    Obama think he can get away with that?  He openly opposed this.  

    The only reason people say the two of the candidates are so close on the issues is because Obama doesn't have any until he steals Hillary's.

    Did Kudlow call him on it?

    [ Parent ]

    That's not how gas prices work, though (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Exeter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:50:06 PM EST
    *IF* such an effect did take place it would take several months for it to work its way through the system. By that time, the 90 day "gas holiday," would be over or nearly over. Hopefully, for several reasons, gas prices will be lower by the end of this holiday, and, in the meantime, it would offer some relief.

    [ Parent ]
    Utter trash (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by RalphB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:03:05 PM EST
    this would be no help to Exxon etal.  Gas prices don't begin to work that way.  There wouldn't be any savings for the oil companies under Clinton's plan since the shortfall from the tax holiday would be made up with an excess profits tax on those oil companies.  Why does everyone always leave that out?

    Pelosi and Hoyer are more than likely saving the oil companies from that excess profits tax.  They damn sure don't seem to care about the guy on the street.


    [ Parent ]

    It's being left out because it's irrelevant. (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Addison on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:36:35 PM EST
    There wouldn't be any savings for the oil companies under Clinton's plan since the shortfall from the tax holiday would be made up with an excess profits tax on those oil companies.  Why does everyone always leave that out?

    Because there's no way a windfall tax wouldn't be vetoed by Bush. Hillary's plan to make up the funding won't go through this summer, but she still wants to cut the gas tax this summer.

    And if you are arguing for the "symbolism" of Bush vetoing the windfall tax, I'd argue that you're promoting a kabuki non-solution and wasting America's time.

    [ Parent ]

    No what's irrelevant (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by RalphB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:00:24 PM EST
    is supporting the democrats in congress who are cowards to their core.  Let  Bush veto it and use it as further ammunition against McCain or maybe to elect more spineless democrats to congress.

    The real reason it's being left out is because it looks good for Clinton and knocks down an Obama talking point.

    You guys are so short-sighted I'm amazed you can find your own a-s with both hands, a roadmap, and a flashlight.

    [ Parent ]

    Classy. (none / 0) (#155)
    by Addison on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:15:56 PM EST
    Well, as classy as that comment was (where are the decorum monitors now?), I'm afraid you're still just showing that this gas tax holiday is not -- and never was -- about actually saving Americans money on gas. One way or another it's DC kabuki, it has nothing to do with getting things done in any substantive way.

    [ Parent ]
    alt energy (none / 0) (#189)
    by jedimom on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:13:53 PM EST
    IIRC all 3 candidates plans to fund alternative energy call for windfall profits-like tax on energy cos
    we have to cross this bridge

    Hill bringing it to floor of Senate force votes on the record..

    Obama voted for the pork laden gift filled Cheney energy bill that helped get us here, now he wants to tax the profits HE voted for

    but thats not pandering?

    [ Parent ]

    Whoa! (none / 0) (#47)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:05:06 PM EST
    since the shortfall from the tax holiday would be made up with an excess profits tax on those oil companies.  Why does everyone always leave that out?

    Thanks for the reminder.

    [ Parent ]

    That is the pattern than generally emerges (none / 0) (#188)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:13:14 PM EST
    Unless the states take off all their taxes at the same time this won't make enough difference to most households to make it worthwhile.

    The price of oil will continue to rise, that will be passed on to the consumers, and then we'll see an instant .24 a gallon jump at the end of the holiday.

    I live in Seattle where the gas prices are hovering just under $4 a gallon. All day and night traffic continues to be heavy. These prices don't seem to have slowed down anyone's vehicle use.

    I'd like to see Hillary rethink this one.

    [ Parent ]

    I did some 'math' today from a trucker (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:09:24 PM EST
    stand point. It's a .24.4 break on diesel. When looking at some trucker stats, yearly average travel seems to be 100-125,000 miles per year. so about 31250 during the holiday if you use the higher average. Seems like 7mpg is an average #, some get as few as 5mpg (!!!) others more. So at 7mpg, you would save about $1 for every 28 miles you drive.

    This is fuel that would be used anyway. The oil companies would be paying for the tax break. This would also help other independent workers that use diesel (or gas) but aren't necessarily hauling goods.

    This could help her with the Truckers vote, perhaps? A demographic that Obama needs and McCain could get.

    http://tinyurl.com/63x9o6

    Oh, and we did Nancy get a vocal spine?!

    [ Parent ]

    I agree (none / 0) (#70)
    by dissenter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:17:19 PM EST
    And isn't he the one that got the Teamsters endorsement. Unbelievable

    [ Parent ]
    He gets the endorsements (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:25:58 PM EST
    but it seems like the workers don't always follow management into the voting booth  ;)

    [ Parent ]
    Regardless (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:36:52 PM EST
    of whether you think it was bad policy or not, the only reason for this is because it would hurt Obama for them to even consider something Clinton is backing.  It doesn't fit their narrative.

    BINGO (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:38:26 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It is seriously a bad mistake by the House Dems. (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by alexei on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:24:11 PM EST
    To come out point blank and say DOA for trying to help the American consumer is terrible politics.  This gives McCain a heads up on showing that "he cares about me".  Clinton also gets that.  But to allow your support for one Democratic Presidential Candidate to trump the good of the Party is ridiculous and stupid.

    [ Parent ]
    they should be applauded for (1.00 / 1) (#65)
    by libfighter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:14:46 PM EST
    not joining Clinton's pander wagon. It was a poorly thought out and ultimately damaging policy, that served no purpose but to get votes from those who do not understand even basic economics. She might as well have just sent Big Oil a fat check.

    Its a low point for Hillary, copycatting a bad idea McCain. It definitely puts her credibility on economics and the environment into question.


    [ Parent ]

    or, it opens up obama (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:19:56 PM EST
    and the congressional democrats to the sure-to-follow charge of being tax loving liberals.  mark my words, the republicans will use this issue against dems in congress and obama, should he be the nominee.  clinton is inoculated because she outflanked mccain by supporting the tax holiday while also proposing tougher, and necessary, measures.  watch and learn.  today's topic:  how to beat republicans.  

    [ Parent ]
    Big Oil Would Not Have Benefited From This (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:29:28 PM EST
    Hillary's plan was for the oil companies to pay for the lost of revenue. Obama voting for Cheney's Energy bill and introducing a liquified coal bill puts his credibility on being an advocate for clean energy solutions into question much more than a short term holiday on the gas tax.

    [ Parent ]
    O is running around saying 6,000 lost jobs (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:35:22 PM EST
    if the tax holiday happens. How conveniently he forgets no money will be lost, which means those jobs will continue.

    He's REALLY ticking me off.

    [ Parent ]

    while we're at it, how about that stimulus (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by thereyougo on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:01:43 PM EST
    package that has been mailed on 5/1 thats supposed to jump start the economy, but we know it won't.

    We're going to pay for that too down the road.

    [ Parent ]

    I would applaud if they (none / 0) (#73)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:18:10 PM EST
    also derided Obama's bad healthcare plan that any economist and healthcare expert will tell you is bad and useless without mandates.  His pandering to the healthcare companies is truly a low-point for him.  He might as well have sent Aetna a big fat check.  

    And you'll be hard-pressed to ever in your life attempt to take away her credibility on economics.  

    [ Parent ]

    How does McCain's proposal pay for the tax? (none / 0) (#75)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:18:40 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It doesn't. (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:20:57 PM EST
    Like a typical Republican he wants a tax break with no way to pay for it. Hillary proposed this with very specific ways of paying for it.

    [ Parent ]
    yup. ;) (none / 0) (#110)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:37:00 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Pfui (none / 0) (#81)
    by pie on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:08 PM EST
    It was a poorly thought out

    If it's one thing I've learned from listening to Clinton, it's that very little is "poorly thought out" and certainly not something like this.

    [ Parent ]

    post partisan? (none / 0) (#131)
    by miguelito on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:53:51 PM EST
    so it's only good to work with and agree with Republicans when Obama does it,  but when Hillary does, it's a "low point".  Kool Aid mentality at it's finest, folks.

    [ Parent ]
    First, (none / 0) (#164)
    by 0 politico on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:30:31 PM EST
    HC's plan is not the same as JMc's plan.  Maybe you missed that point.

    No, I do not believe it is a long term economic solution, only short term consumer relief at the expense of Big Oil.  Both HC and BO has expressed long term Green initiatives to reduce oil dependency, so no, BO does not have a superior morale argument here.  (Funny, it sounded like he became "green" a week after she announce her platform.)

    While a $30-$40 to dollar savings over the summer may not sound like much, to caught in the middle voters, at least they feel that someone is listening to their concerns.

    By not getting behind the idea of some kind of consumer relief, the Dem Leadership and BO risk the possibility of being insensitive (and elitist) towards the average consumer's and voter's pressing issue - the economic situation in their home.

    Folks should remember that there are a lot more Wal-Mart and Target shoppers in this country than there are Saks and Nieman Marcus shoppers.

    [ Parent ]

    And.. (none / 0) (#7)
    by PaulDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:39:57 PM EST
    The only reason any democrat would ever support McCain's boondoggle is because it's calculated to hurt Obama.  Let's not mistake this for what it is here.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually, while I totally disagree with (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:07:29 PM EST
    the notion of a gas tax holidy, Clinton is once again showing that she is willing to be responsive to an electorate that is feeling hard hit by the rise in energy costs.  Obama simply says "No" and doesn't offer an alternative idea and based on an exchange I had today there are some good ways of easing the pain for voters that are better.  But Obama can't seem to bring himself to pursue the working class voter with real and more immediat solutions.  The problem is that $30 is A LOT of money to more and more people now.  Two great suggestions I heard were to offer CFLs at a considerably lower price and employ people at gas stations to check tire pressure because that helps mileage and may yield even more financial benefit.  These ideas would also instill good practices that we will need to adopt in order to beat this energy crisis.

    [ Parent ]
    What is a CFL? n/t (none / 0) (#66)
    by Emma on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:15:51 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Compact flourescent lightbulb. n/t (none / 0) (#160)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:21:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    According to the Star Trib in IL (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:28:18 PM EST
    Obama supported a state level gas holiday...

    So was it a boondoggle then? Or is  it a boondoggle now?

    [ Parent ]

    Kerry the 2nd (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by miguelito on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:52:07 PM EST
    another example how Obama was for something before he was against it.  Horrible.  

    [ Parent ]
    not so much "horrible" (none / 0) (#130)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:53:26 PM EST
    as typical.

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't realize (none / 0) (#18)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:48:37 PM EST
    Obama is the only Democrat in America now.  LOL

    [ Parent ]
    did Obama vote for a gas tax holiday (none / 0) (#145)
    by Josey on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:02:53 PM EST
    3 times in Illinois? If so, can't find a link.


    [ Parent ]
    hmmm......good catch there (none / 0) (#150)
    by thereyougo on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:07:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Jeralyn found it! it's posted now (none / 0) (#203)
    by Josey on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:55:33 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    AGREE (none / 0) (#191)
    by jedimom on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:15:21 PM EST
    It shows that Pelosi and Hoyer are loyal to Obama and their agendas before the people, period, again.

    [ Parent ]
    Is it something that Hillary (5.00 / 6) (#5)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:38:02 PM EST
    is proposing, Nancy? Then yes. DOA.  How swiftly they cut down anything suggested by her.  A$$hats both.   Where was her spine when we needed a deadline for Iraq? They are truly jellyfish when it matters.  They have spines when it comes to inanities.

    Nothing New Here (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:41:43 PM EST
    Congressional Democrats have long been much more willing to say no to democrats, including democratic presidents, than to republicans.   It's a sickness.

    Also DOA: (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:31:17 PM EST
    Impeachment.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:42:30 PM EST
    The gas tax holiday, like most tax cuts, is pretty much a Republican initiative.  (Of course, Republicans don't propose it in the same revenue-neutral way as Hillary, but it's still a bad idea.)  Yet the Democratic leadership only gets the nerve to pronounce it DOA once Hillary starts to push it.

    Savvy observers may have noticed that the media wasn't fact-checking the idea of a tax holiday whatsoever back when McCain proposed it.  In fact, they were spreading misinformation like saying that it might save people as much as 20%.  Only when Hillary got involved did the media suddenly start to tell us about all the experts who think that it's a terrible idea.  Interesting dynamic at work.

    Not interesting, predictable. (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:46:45 PM EST
    The only time I've ever seen the huge disappointment that is Nancy Pelosi doing anything that could be construed as remotely brave, it's when she very clearly is trying to undercut Hillary.  

    I'd say Bill really scared the hell out of those DC do-nothings when he was President. They don't want Hillary anywhere near the White House. Gawd forbid! They may actually have to DO something!

    [ Parent ]

    the dynamic is how to beat republicans (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:54:52 PM EST
    now, hillary cannot be called a knee-jerk taxer, a tax loving liberal, or a tax and spend democrat.  this was a general election move by the republicans first.  think about it.  she took it away from them.  checkmate hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly. (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:58:21 PM EST
    She's too smart for these fools.   Seriously.  She out-hawks the Repubs on Iran in a clear, Democratic, SANE way.  She's a liberal where it counts the most: universal healthcare and good tax policy.  She knows when she should compromise and she knows when to fight.

    Nancy knows she should fight Hillary and capitulate to Bush and the Capitol Hill boys.

    Again I say Hillary is simply too smart for these fools.

    [ Parent ]

    Of course you're right ... (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Robot Porter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:59:17 PM EST
    and you could see her using it in a debate against McCain.  Even the reaction by Pelosi could be used.

    [ Parent ]
    Should they have backed (1.00 / 0) (#74)
    by libfighter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:18:37 PM EST
    a terrible and damaging plan, that Hillary lifted from McCain?

    [ Parent ]
    they should have followed (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:49 PM EST
    hillary's lead by taking away the tax issue and outflanking with a serious proposal.  instead, they were once again gazing at their navels when a clinton demonstrated how to beat republicans.  

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, great political move by Hillary and the House (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by alexei on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:27:18 PM EST
    collective for Obama, spurns a Dem take away from the Repubs.  This is another example of why I will be working against Obama supporters.

    [ Parent ]
    I'd like to get a yea/nay from all the Dems (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:32:35 PM EST
    running for re-election.

    [ Parent ]
    And Obama, who apparently (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by oculus on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:23:07 PM EST
    supported such a plan while he was an elected IL state senator.

    [ Parent ]
    It appears (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:26:53 PM EST
    that you have no idea at all of the differences between Hillary's plan and McCain's.

    You must be from one of those websites that thinks Hillary's Middle East policy is indistinguishable from George Bush's.

    [ Parent ]

    There are people who don't believe that?! (none / 0) (#102)
    by andgarden on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:33:08 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    what is damaging about it? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:20:24 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    what is damaging about it? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:20:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    1. Increases oil company revenues (none / 0) (#111)
    by magster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:37:41 PM EST
    1. increases gas demand which will raise gas prices, offsetting some if not all of the minimal benefit.

    2. sticker shock after gas tax holiday ends.

    3. increased consumption and in turn, increased greenhouse gases.

    4. layoffs for road construction crews and further neglect of infrastructure (windfall profit tax is not going to pass if gas holiday passes)

    5. Democrat sides with Republican to double team likely Democratic nominee.


    [ Parent ]
    The Revenue For Roads Would Not Be Lost (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:00:49 PM EST
    under Hillary's plan since it is revenue neutral. Whatever money was there for roads would still be there. Completely distorts her position.

     

    [ Parent ]

    I responded to this bit of misinformation too (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:02:39 PM EST
    but for some reason it got stuck at the bottom of the page.

    [ Parent ]
    That's a line of bull (none / 0) (#154)
    by magster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:14:59 PM EST
    Do you really think Bush will sign a oil company revenue tax?

    [ Parent ]
    it just puts the issue back in play (none / 0) (#161)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:25:56 PM EST
    for the repubs in congress who would join with bush to then override the veto.  actually, hillary may have gotten on the right side of this issue in such a way as to ride it all the way to the general election with the narrative being "repubs block gas holiday due to increase in company profits tax" instead of "dems never met a tax they didn't like".  chess not checkers.  if dems wake up, they can use this issue to beat congressional republicans supporting a potential bush veto. not only that, by getting behind it now, clinton has also provided cover for congressional dems, in the form of time, to get behind the real reforms for which the tax issue is a clever segue.  obviously, i think this is a winning issue for clinton, and beautifully played.  i will shut up now.  

    [ Parent ]
    No He Would Veto It (none / 0) (#163)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:29:36 PM EST
    Then all the Republicans, including McCain, would have to go on record as preferring the oil companies over people.

    OTOH McCain's plan would just be added to the federal debt. The Dems would then be put in the position of voting against it. The meme would be Republicans want to help you but the Democrats don't care if you can't afford the gas to get to work or not. Hillary coming out in favor of the tax holiday but making the oil companies pay for it threw the ball back into the Republican court.

    This is the part of the whole thing Obama's supporters fail to understand.

    [ Parent ]

    The Democrats Suck at Passing Bills (none / 0) (#166)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:32:43 PM EST
    and making Bush veto them.  In part because the Republican Congress is better at blocking them.  Of course, they might not be better if they occasionally had to actually engage in a true filibuster.

    [ Parent ]
    Democrats Evidently Prefer Being In A Minority (none / 0) (#168)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:44:58 PM EST
    position where they can use that status as an excuse. Doesn't look like winning back the WH is the highest item on their priority list either.
     

    [ Parent ]
    uhhhh (none / 0) (#195)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:30:11 PM EST
    It's all their fault.  The victim party.   :(

    [ Parent ]
    NO --- IACF n/t (none / 0) (#196)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:36:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    1. How? They are paying for it. (none / 0) (#149)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:05:48 PM EST
    1. How many people who can't afford 4per gallon gas, will drive more if it's 3.82 a gallon? Do you REALLY believe that struggling families are going to drive for the heck of it, especially with food prices also going up? Remember, the savings according to Obama are basically none, 30 cents a day.

    2. 18 cents will be sticker shock?

    4 see #2

    5 tax is tied into the Clinton plan

    6 Democrat sides with the people and asks other dems to do the same. the spineless ones in congress have been ignoring the people long enough.

    [ Parent ]

    Let's see... (none / 0) (#158)
    by kdog on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:19:42 PM EST
    Icreases oil co. revenues...they seem to do a fine job of that regardless.  Whatever the price becomes it beats that plus 18 cents.

    Increases demand...I'm not sold on that.  For example, if gas was 18 cents cheaper tomorrow I wouldn't fill-up and drive around the block 50 times.  My usage would not change.

    Sticker shock...thats easy, make the tax disappear permanently.

    Greenhouse gases...planet earth will be ok, some species including humans are in danger from greenhouse gases.  I don't really see how squeezing the working family really helps much.  The elites are fueling the private jets and Hummers no matter what gas costs.

    Layoffs...their are lots of ways to secure highway maintenance funds.  Pulling out of Iraq and abolishing the DEA are two of my favorites.

    Number 6 is political bullsh*t...this about people.

    [ Parent ]

    I wonder if he thought about (none / 0) (#178)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:04:55 PM EST
    those things when he voted for gas tax holidays while he was in the IL legislature.

    [ Parent ]
    ssssssssh! (none / 0) (#185)
    by nycstray on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:10:45 PM EST
    his past is supposed to be hidden! A blank slate if you will, to form into what you want . . .   {gag}

    [ Parent ]
    Uh (none / 0) (#209)
    by Steve M on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:53:32 AM EST
    You can't just declare that a tax is not going to pass, therefore you're going to criticize Hillary's plan as if there wasn't a tax in it.  It's still part of the plan.  If the plan is unachievable, then okay, I guess Democrats get the political benefit of proposing it without any of the downside of actually enacting it.

    It's simply false to say that under Clinton's plan, workers will be laid off and bridges will fall down.  A complete lie.  If I'm allowed to rewrite policy proposals based upon what I think Congress might do to them in reality, I assure you I could make any one of Obama's plans into an unmitigated disaster as well.  But it would be a dishonest tactic.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:45:09 PM EST
    Funny how Nancy comes out strongly against -- Hillary.

    It also gives you an idea of how Nancy would act with a Hillary presidency.

    Suddenly Nancy would be strongly against things proposed by the president, rather than a pushover as she is with Bush.

    The woman needs to be fired.

    FYI (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:45:59 PM EST
    I'm against this tax holiday.  However, I'm also against many Bush proposals that Nancy doesn't come out strongly against.

    [ Parent ]
    Amazing how (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by janarchy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:59:02 PM EST
    our esteemed Speaker of the House (yeah, right) can't get anything done, takes important things off the table, but can manage to get this done with her pet lap dog, Steny Hoyer. But of course we know she's uncommitted and neutral! She said so, it must be true!

    wait a second... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:01:07 PM EST
    i thought obama was the one who was campaigning on his ability to work with those "across the aisle" and bring "unity".  now he is aligned with congressional dems in favor of keeping a tax?  this is pretzel logic type stuff.

    didn't you get the memo (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by miguelito on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:59:17 PM EST
    Obama is the only one allowed to reach across the aisle!

    [ Parent ]
    and suddenly (none / 0) (#157)
    by boredmpa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:19:00 PM EST
    a national enquirer headline pops into my head:

    font size 20++, yellow text

    Anonymous Senator: "Hillary gives better reach around"!!!

    "Our anonymous source told us that, "Hillary just gives a better reach around and really follows thorough, Barack just kinda gets bored in the middle.  And we all know how that is..."

    Ahhh Larry Craig...where are you when the queer community needs you for some laughs.

    [ Parent ]

    o/t: (none / 0) (#162)
    by english teacher on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:28:21 PM EST
    for a while there, i was thinking of changing my screen name to "naughty, nasty english teacher" in honor of him, but decided against it.  

    [ Parent ]
    If there's 200 million cars registered (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:06:23 PM EST
    And let's say 50% of them are owned and used every day by the middle class.

    That's 100 million cars.

    Now if you say that each one of those cars uses 12 gallons per week on average, lets crunch some numbers.

    What you come up with is the possibility that a Republican talking point can go like this:  

    House Democrats denied a 228 Million dollar tax break for the middle class!

    Now of course no one can prove that's what would have happened.  Econ101 says it would not have.  And anyone with a brain will know that a 228 million dollar tax break only works out to like 28 bucks per person in the middle class, etc. etc.

    Just mulling over the politics involved here.  And I find it odd what talking points we live in fear of and which one's we validate going forward.

    I can't prove Pelosi or Hoyer are politically motivated to support Obama on this so I won't go there.


    Sometimes ... (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:08:40 PM EST
    ... it does everyone a world of good for politicians to perform the symbolic act, and seek to give their besieged and demoralized constituents a psychological lift from adverse events, even if the action in question doesn't amount to all that much in a technical sense.

    For sure, it can be construed as political pandering, and it is being so. But then, so could President Franklin Roosevelt's March 1933 "bank holiday", or his April 1942 order to Col. Jimmy Doolittle to lead an air raid on imperial Japan with only 16 B-25s launched from the deck of an aircraft carrier.

    And while Hillary Clinton certainly understands that in refashioning her campaign as economically populist in tone, the D.C. Beltway-centric House majority Leader Steny Hoyer, self-absorbed Speaker Nancy Pelosi and resident political torch singer Barack Obama either clearly do not, or merely wish to deny Mrs. Clinton the moment.

    One certainly wonders whether they'd still stand upon such ostensible principle were Sen. Obama to be in favor of the tax holiday -- as he was in the Illinois State Senate -- and Sens. Clinton and McCain were opposed.

    I thinks it's a great political move. (5.00 / 4) (#104)
    by Joan in VA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:34:35 PM EST
    Shows she cares about the average citizen while Obama mocks her and the average citizen thinks he's out of touch. Also, marginalizes McCain's idea with a smarter one. And average citizen loves the oil companies paying more taxes on their outrageous profits.

    [ Parent ]
    I like it! (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Josey on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:10:38 PM EST
    You're either with the American people or with the Oil Companies. -
    Bill Clinton


    Cardinal Pelosi? She is for Pope Obama I (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by feet on earth on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:19:42 PM EST
    These super delegates are acting like the conclave: white smoke for His Holiness Pope Obama I
    Sacred sh**t

    Symbolic (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:55 PM EST
    The power in Clinton's plan is its symbolism.  She is going to (temporarily) replace a tax that people pay with a tax on corporations.  Now, it's true it might not save anyone a dime.  But so what?  Even if it doesn't save anyone any money, where's the harm?  There is no harm.  And, who knows, it might save some people who are really struggling a little bit of money.

    But I return to the symbolism, after eight years of having the government put corporations over people, it's a powerful symbol for democrats to send that they are going to do what they can to put people first.

    So what does the Democratic leadership do, immediately announce that the plan that would try to shift the economic burden from people to corporations, at least temporarily, is DOA.  No wonder Democrats lose elections.  

    But, hey, Pelosi did say that it was dead because it would interfere with the other things Democrats are trying to do to lower the price of gas.   So apparently there is some plan, some where to help lower gas prices (although it's a super secret plan apparently).    I can't help but wonder if it is similar to all the things democrats are doing to end the war in Iraq?  Because it seems about as effective given that my neighborhood cheap-o gas station is at $3.81 a gallon.  

    As for Obama, his last ad claimed the way to fix gas prices is to fix Washington.  If I have to wait for him to fix Washington, I'm going to be paying $8 a gallon.

    This isn't about policy, it's about politics.  

    As for the charge of "pandering" (5.00 / 6) (#88)
    by BDB on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:24:44 PM EST
    Yes, god forbid democrats be accused of proposing a policy that is popular with voters.  Much better to lecture them to eat their vegetables and tell them how high gas prices are actually good for them.  Because that will win an election.  

    [ Parent ]
    LOL. Yes! God forbid we pander!! (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:26:10 PM EST
    Let's just lose instead!

    [ Parent ]
    PETA figured it out (none / 0) (#132)
    by boredmpa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:55:57 PM EST
    I'm still amazed the PETA started in vitro meat.

    But you gotta be pragmatic about reaching your goals and careful about how you define them.

    [ Parent ]

    If it works then yes (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:33:59 PM EST
    Clinton will have replaced a regressive tax with a progressive tax.


    [ Parent ]
    BDB, This Is Precisely What Is Going On (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:47:02 PM EST
    Dem leadership is completely tone deaf and too often ham fisted at dealing with public perception. This is what Hillary is doing and what all Democrats should adopt as their mantra.

    After eight years of having the government put corporations over people, it's a powerful symbol for democrats to send that they are going to do what they can to put people first.


    [ Parent ]
    Has anyone noticed... (5.00 / 5) (#97)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:29:49 PM EST
    ... that whenever someone is praised for being politically