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The Logic Of Clinton's Argument To the Superdelegates

The normally sharp James Joyner plays dumb in order to take a swipe at Hillary Clinton:

The “Electoral College” argument, though, is interesting. On its face, it’s silly. The Democratic Party has a set of rules in place for how it selects its nominee. Those rules don’t at all resemble winner-take-all model mirrored on the Electoral College. Consequently, her opponents didn’t run their campaigns as if that were the case. To now claim that this is how the race should be decided is brazen.

Joyner's point is silly. Clinton is arguing to the superdelegates who can vote for whomever they like. Clinton is arguing she has a better chance to win in November. It is silly to argue that this argument is somehow out of bounds. She may be wrong. You can argue against her points. But to call the argument silly is, well, silly. Joyner himself seems to recognize this:

[S]ince Clinton’s argument is intended to sway unpledged superdelegates, whose job it is to decide which candidate will represent the party best in the general election, it’s a defensible point.

Of course it is a defensible point, rendering Joyner's previous pronouncements in the same post inoperative. Strange logic from the normally astute James Joyner.

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    Hillary Rules? (5.00 / 10) (#1)
    by katiebird on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:58:15 AM EST
    Any argument that justifies Hillary's nomination is either "silly" or "stupid"

    Why Hillary's metrics matter: one-person one-vote (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by ghost2 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:02:54 PM EST
    For two fundamental reasons: democracy and winning in November.  Both are very important.  

    Every media outlet treats the popular vote and electoral college as a joke, while at the same time, they talk about Obama having won the most pledged delegates and the most states.  Could silliness and congnative dissonance get any worse?

    The US system of election is based on one-person, one-vote.  This principle gives weight to population in each state by assigning them a number of electoral votes.  Therefore, UT gets 5, ID gets 4, and California 55, because California has lots more people living in it.  The whole 'Obama has won more state' is laughable and ridiculous.  I mean just compare the number of states Gore won vs. Bush.  However, media repeats this silly talking point ad-nausum.

    Hillary is absolutely right.  The fundation of democracy is one-person one-vote.  That prinicple is best seen through popular vote, through number of congressional districts (who are drawn to have similar number of voters in each) won, and through electoral college.  

    It's Gore vs. Bush again.  Except that if Bush cheated by 600 votes, the democratic party is now neutering 2 huge states, and is trampling over the one-person one-vote principle with heavy boots.  
     

    Parent

    The silliest part (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by cal1942 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:29:21 PM EST
    of the Obama argument is most states.

    Six states plus DC each have 3 electoral votes.

    Pennsylvania has 21.

    Absolutely laughable and was part of the Jimmy Carter argument.  Has our party gone completely mad?

    Parent

    Maybe just maybe that is why: we lose (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by Stellaaa on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:01:34 AM EST
    The "Electoral College" argument, though, is interesting. On its face, it's silly. The Democratic Party has a set of rules in place for how it selects its nominee. Those rules don't at all resemble winner-take-all model mirrored on the Electoral College.


    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by pantsuit chic on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:13:28 AM EST
    I can't stand all this handwringing from the peope who designed this moronic system.

    Parent
    Even more moronic (none / 0) (#70)
    by cal1942 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 04:00:11 PM EST
    when a 3 electoral vote state like Alaska is awarded 18 delegates and California only 441.

    Alaska * 1 Delegate per 37,971 People

    California * 1 Delegate per 82,887 People

    According to the DNC Californians aren't as valuable as Alaskans.

    If Californians are given equal value then 962 delegates would be a proper proportional representation.

    Parent

    The rules allow us to pick a winner (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Davidson on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:16:35 AM EST
    Hence, the supposed duty of superdelegates in such a close contest.  However, it seems the supers are hellbent on throwing the election.  Who needs to win?  Not the Democratic Party!*

    *Even Obama's so-called Western strategy seems a better fit for Clinton in November considering Clinton's appeal to Latinos and growing immunity to the anti-Democratic media will help her do better than Obama, whose house of cards will collapse by November after the media and GOP assault, and will help lay the groundwork for future Democratic wins.

    Parent

    If the next sentence had only been (none / 0) (#3)
    by bjorn on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:04:26 AM EST
    But of course the rules should be changed the next time to do precisely that.

    Parent
    I don't even agree with that (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by andgarden on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:06:21 AM EST
    I think proportional representation is fine. But I'm not OK with caucuses are extreme punishments. Heck, I'm not even ok with delegates, instead of just voters.

    Parent
    if we just use voters, even better! (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by bjorn on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:13:37 AM EST
    Proportionality (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Stellaaa on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:33:13 AM EST
    What does proportionality tell us about the candidates potential in the GE.  Yes, it has a fairness aspect to it, but it deals in micro political climates.  Also the system that is set up is convoluted and in principle I hate systems that are not transparent and require rules committees, lawyers (sorry), strategists and large spread sheets to decipher.

    I think the Obama win, tells us that a very clever team can break the code of the convoluted system and march into victory for the nomination, yet here we are and we have no mandate for the winner and no clear idea if he is marketable.  

    Parent

    My plan would be (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by andgarden on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:01:07 AM EST
    to just count the national popular vote at the end of the day.

    Parent
    I like it (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Stellaaa on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:06:45 AM EST
    keep it simple stupid.  I realized after the 2000 election that about 60% of American voters had no clue about the electoral college.  Now, with the Dem primary, the truth has exposed the twisted rule games of the Democratic process and the layers of complexity that were added in the name of "fairness".  

    Why do we need CNN etc. with those maps to sit there and play with the possible outcomes?  The Byzantines would at least have had better costumes when inventing such a system.  

    Parent

    Porportional representation is usually (none / 0) (#44)
    by alright on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:05:34 PM EST
    used when there are a number of empty offices to redistribute the diverse opinon of the electoral, but there can only be one president and one winner.. so ti doesnt make sense.

    Parent
    The next sentence pretty much (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by RickTaylor on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:21:15 AM EST
    was that. "At the same time, though, my colleague Dave Schuler . . . has observed several times that such a system is what the party should be using. It's pretty much what the Republicans do and it gives them a relative advantage because it vets its would-be nominees through the same gauntlet that they'll face in November."

    Parent
    I think there will be a lot of that (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edgar08 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:08:51 AM EST
    "we'll change the roolz now, now that we got what we wanted from them."

    As I keep repeating.

    The Patriots fan said something like this:

    "Sure the tuck rule sucks.  We'll get around to changing it after we're done with our victory speeches.  BWAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHA!!!! Faders got beatdown!!!  Smackdown!  Pwned!!!"


    Parent
    Um, isn't winning the Electoral College (none / 0) (#35)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:23:00 AM EST
    votes the way to win the GE?? And shouldn't that be the goal?? And if Hillary can win the Electoral College votes, why is that not a reason to nominate her?? These people are not making sense. The idea is to win the GE, right??

    Parent
    BTD, you keep missing the point. (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by GOPmurderedconscience on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:04:31 AM EST
    You are not allowed to display common sense or logical thinking when talking or writing about Hillary Clinton.

    When are you gonna get it?

    He should visit (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Lahdee on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:07:54 AM EST
    the argument clinic. That would clear it up for him.

    That is absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Mrwirez on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:27:49 AM EST
    CLASSIC I am still laughing.

    Parent
    That was funny (none / 0) (#49)
    by PainKillerJayne on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:30:41 PM EST
    thanks for the laugh lahdee!!!!

    Parent
    I hate the whole process, (5.00 / 6) (#11)
    by Mrwirez on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:22:34 AM EST
    anyone running for President should get SIX months (maybe that is too long) in all states to campaign. Then on say SUPER February 15th the whole country registered to their party would vote by secret ballot in their states primary. How long has it been since Senator Obama and Clinton for that matter worked for the people that actually elected them in NY or IL? Obama really has only been the senator from IL for one year, he has been campaigning for two, even though he said he would not be ready. Caucuses are not fair. If PA had them I would not be able to attend because of work. I think we all know who would have been the nominee without caucuses.

    6 months... (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by wasabi on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:58:52 AM EST
    That would not work as only the person who had high name recognition or a bundle of money would be able to effectively campaign across 50 states.  In addition, the candidates would only campaign in the large states where the big votes can be gotten.

    I favor the current system for winnowing down the field, but would like to see the initial states (Iowa, NH) be tossed for a more representative group of states that could be cycled thru on a rotating basis election to election.

    And no more caucuses.  They may work for low election turnouts, but are a real problem when there are high turnouts.  Actually Texas's two-step has it's advantages for party building, but again, was a disaster with a high turnout.

    Parent

    Caucuses (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by PainKillerJayne on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:35:37 PM EST
    They are crazy and totally useless. I agree with the Super Tuesday idea.  one vote........

    Parent
    Current process is (none / 0) (#32)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:15:42 AM EST
    intended to allow the initial elimination part to narrow the candidates early and not cost each of them the cost of campaigning in more states than they can afford. The candidates drop out when their place in the early primaries make it impossible for them to get funding/donations.

    I'd like to see some major revisions, though.

    Parent

    TeamObama's longterm strategy's a Conservative one (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by Ellie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:23:16 AM EST
    Their mentality is that ALL the (states, del's, SDs, benefits) -- let's call them ducats -- naturally belong to Obama.

    All the negatives naturally belong to Bad Monster Lady, who is "divisive" according to Obama's own BS selling point. (In case no one noticed, that's not an affirmative selling point for BO.)

    Ergo (goes the reasoning) whatever BO's rival gains is deemed to have been stolen, and gets talked about as such by BO's supporters. It's infectious, especially to impressionable and addled media. (CNN: the most trusting name in news.)

    And silly and wrong to the heretics to the Obama movement.

    Why is this deja vu all over again? Because Repugs have been running this personality cult boondoggle for decades and some slick Dems have figured out a way to rig "our" own version of the same stupid, albeit forward moving, machine.

    And true to Dem history, this one will blow up the second someone turns on the ignition to power "us" forward in the GE.

    Personality cult boondogle (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by Stellaaa on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:37:06 AM EST
    What is amazing is someone like Greenwald just wrote a book on the Republican personality cult candidates.  Then, Greenwald throws his support for Obama and never applies his analysis on Obama.  I guess now Greenwald has entered the world of bland analysts.  

    Parent
    That kind behavior (5.00 / 6) (#36)
    by talex on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:25:44 AM EST
    is running rampant throughout the blogosphere. Anytime I post on a pro-Obama blog and say something negative about him that is indisputable it is either met with head-in-the-sand silence or by personal attacks.

    It's sad to say this but I think the division that was created in the Party during these primaries is not going to end. It will be true Progressives vs. Obamabots (if he wins anything) that are willing to forgo Progressive principles in favor of Obama post-partisanship triangulation.

    This division is not about my candidate or yours. This division is about the soul of the Democratic party and whether we are going to continue to try to move it Left, or if we are going to allow an Obama and his naive supporters to turn it into the Blue Dog Party.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Steve M on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:28:10 AM EST
    If I were a superdelegate, there are only two arguments I would find persuasive at this stage in the game: the pledged delegate lead, and electability in November.

    Everything else is way too murky.  There are like 12 different arguable ways to count the popular vote, and there's no logic in trying to cast my mythical superdelegate vote based on whoever ends up with 12 more popular votes than the other.  That metric is a poor tiebreaker.

    Sure, it's an argument - everything is an argument - but I'm not surprised it hasn't proved all that persuasive to this point.  From Hillary's perspective it's really about electability, with the popular vote serving as a bit of a fig leaf over the harshness of that determination.

    well of course (none / 0) (#64)
    by isaac on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:45:08 PM EST
    you try to obscure the popular vote because it reflects poorly on your candidate, which confirms its validity as a metric

    Parent
    So silly. (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by rooge04 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:28:34 AM EST
    So silly to worry about states in November. Silly, silly, silly.

    It's because (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:36:21 AM EST
    they think that Flat Cat could win in November.  They can exorcise the Clinton monster and win with a weak candidate all at the same time.  

    Parent
    Well you know (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by BrandingIron on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:42:23 AM EST

    if he does win the nom and then loses the election, you KNOW they'll blame Clinton for it.  "She made the nomination process too looooong!  Waaaaaah!"

    Parent
    He will lose OH and possibly PA (5.00 / 6) (#16)
    by goldberry on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:33:04 AM EST
    Sorry, BTD, Pennsylvanians are really steamed by his campaign recently as evidenced by the overwhelming number of callers to Steve Corbett's radio call in show at WILK.  Obama lost PA decisively and the people calling in say they are not going to vote for him under any circumstances after Wrightgate, Bittergate and Sweetiegate.  He's just alienated too many people.  
    Pennsylvanians are realists.  They're not into the Unity pony stuff and that message has much less resonance to them.  The population is older and more working class and Obama seems determined to blow them off, not offering them any policies that are targeted to them.  He's going to have to work extra hard to win them back and frankly I don't think he can do it.  Remember, Kerry won PA with a smidgen and he didn't go out of his way to piss them off.  Obama seems to revel in it.  
    Same goes with OH.  He's in big trouble in the fall.  I hope SDs figure it out before Denver.

    Yep (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:40:29 AM EST
    that's what it is with the older working class.  They aren't racists, bitter, gung-clingers, etc..  Instead, they have to make ends meet, a subject that is on their minds much of the time, and hopey-change doesn't ever even come on their radar screen.

    Using Maslow's:

    Obama is self-actualization needs
    Working class is physiological/safety needs

    leading to a complete disconnect.

    He doesn't offer much of anything to pragmatists.  

    Parent

    Clinton's argument to the superdelegates (5.00 / 12) (#18)
    by Anne on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:33:56 AM EST
    makes all kinds of sense to me; is that because I want it to make sense because I support her, or is it because it actually does make sense?

    I'm going with Door No. 2: it actually does make sense.

    Of course there are unknowns, but the trends are there:

    1.  she has been winning steadily since March 4th.

    2.  she has won states she wasn't suppposed to win.

    3.  she has won despite being outspent and out-advertised.

    4.  she has won despite big name endorsements for her opponent.

    5.  she has eroded her opponent's support in key demographics.

    6.  she has won states the Dems must have in order to win in November.

    7.  she is a known quantity who is not likely to be swamped in a tsunami of damaging information between now and November.

    8.  there is growing anecdotal evidence that if her opponent is nominated, her supporters may vote for McCain, stay home, or not vote the presidential ticket.

    That last one sounds more like the "I can get her voters, but she can't get mine" kind of line that Obama gave us some time ago, the difference being that when he said it, he was talking out of his a$$, and when she says it, she's talking on the basis of exit polls and other polling and what people are telling her.

    I keep hearing that no matter who the nominee is, we will all fall into line like good little Democrats, and vote for him or her, but I think that's an argument that might be close to being on its last legs.  

    It may be time for some changes in the Democratic party, but I am getting increasingly ticked off by what appears to be a hostage situation - people who should know better are allowing themselves to be convinced by the ocean of cash Obama promises to let them all swim in - even if he is not the most electable candidate.  Well, I'm sorry, Howard Dean and Donna Brazile and all the rest of you DNC poo-bahs, and all you superdelegates - do that at your own peril.  

    Silly! (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by OldCoastie on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:49:56 AM EST
    :=)

    Parent
    The SDs can take astrology (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by kredwyn on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:38:34 AM EST
    and numerology into account as they make up their minds.

    The Electoral College argument is a valid argument when it comes to the final outcome in Nov.

    OR - Kentucky delegates (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by ccpup on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:49:18 AM EST
    So, if Obama wins Oregon by, say, SUSA's 11 points and Hillary wins Kentucky by the 20+ most Polls have her at, she'll win the majority of Kentucky's 51 delegates while, with a 11 point loss to Obama in Oregon, basically split not-exactly-down-the-middle but close enough all of Oregon's 52 delegates, right?

    How can people think she's out of the race and has no chance at the Nod?  And why isn't Obama doing more in Kentucky to stop the bleeding and show the Superdelegates he's trying to win the Working White Vote?

    She's Out (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by ibextati on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:41:31 AM EST
    Your argument makes sense if they were almost tied. But the problem is this is not a tie if you look at the delegate lead Obama has. Obama has nothing to proof at this point. It's Hillary who has to show that she can change the game. Changing the game means not only win KY big but also winning OR, SD, MT and PR by big margins. If she could do that then she has a case before the superdelegates.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Davidson on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:46:13 AM EST
    Neither can win without superdelegates, who can change their minds whenever, and the whole point of supers is to pick the strongest GE candidate.  She can't win the pledged delegate count, true, but she doesn't need to.

    Parent
    neither can obama (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by isaac on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:49:49 PM EST
    win the pledged delegate count, if winning means reaching the magic number of 2209

    Parent
    She's out (none / 0) (#48)
    by ibextati on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:24:00 PM EST
    She desn't need to win the delegate count but she has to keep it very close. When she's down by 153 delegates, her case before the superdelegate doesn't look good.

    Parent
    She not out (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Marvin42 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:50:20 PM EST
    And you are repeating. She doesn't need to do anything by the rules. As unlikely as it is the super delegates alone can pick the winner if the winner does not reach the magic numbers by pledged delegates.

    The rest is just your opinion.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by waldenpond on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:07:41 PM EST
    neither can win without superdelegates. Some people that support a certain (Obama) campaign, think that if they say a false (Obama) talking pt enough, that it makes it true.  Obama roolz you know.

    The media chose to go along with the false game presented by Obama, but it will be used against Obama in the fall.

    Parent

    Maybe the SDs believe (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by mg7505 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:53:00 AM EST
    the media canard that if Obama just has a VP like Edwards, he'll automatically get all of Clinton's voters -- problem solved! Never mind that working class voters aren't just interchangeable, the same way that you can't replace Hillary with any another woman.

    Of course I want to ask them, how about if Clinton just has Obama as her VP? Oh wait... they're drinking kool-aid.

    It Is Amazing How Assinine Someone Will (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:54:32 AM EST
    become just to get a dig in at Hillary.  She has a valid argument about the electoral votes...they should be considered when SD's are deciding who would be the most electable candidate.  So tired of so much b.s. in this campaign.

    LItigator's Refrain (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by kaleidescope on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:02:03 AM EST
    You use the arguments you have.  It's great to have the facts and the law on your side, but, if not, you still have to argue something. We've all seen this in court, preferably in our opponents but, hey, I've been there myself.

    i think i finally figured out (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by cpinva on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:33:56 AM EST
    what sen. obamas real problem is, with so many of the groups he's managed to alienate over the course of the past several months. it also explains his seeming detachment: he's treating this as an intellectual exercise, not as an actual political campaign.

    intellectual exercises don't have real consequences. there's nothing inherently wrong with them, but real life isn't the time to be doing them. the military has massive war games during peacetime, not usually when they're actually in the middle of actual hostile action. they have micro exercises then, to train with the lessons learned during the current fray, and apply them in real-time.

    sen. obama's campaign just doesn't seem to have that capacity for quick adaptation to a swiftly changing environment.

    mr. joyner managed to contradict himself in two paragraphs. does he really get paid to write that? a straight popular vote determination is proportionality, by definition. the electoral college and delegates aren't.

    of course, if a straight popular vote were used in the GE, no one would care about states like WY or ND.


    Aka "Little Professor Syndrome" (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Cream City on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:31:10 PM EST
    or Asperger's, endemic in academe.  Very, very bright people but lacking in ability to adapt to others.  Or those who do learn to adapt mask it with much but superficial charm.  Frankly, I saw a lot of it in his memoirs -- in which he recalls analyzing his mother and grandparents as a psychologist does instead of as a kid does.

    Btw, I've also seen it in a lot of lawyers, but this probably isn't the blog to bring up that. :-)

    Parent

    Creative Writing (5.00 / 0) (#54)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:45:19 PM EST
    so much in both books have been found to be fiction that it's difficult to believe any of what he claims.

    A news researcher named Kenneth E Lamb tried to verify many claims Obama made in the books and posted his findings online. His assessment is that Oprah needs to bring Obama back to her show and give him the same scolding she gave James Frey.

    Parent

    Don't be surprised that he (none / 0) (#72)
    by mg7505 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:47:42 PM EST
    got paid to write that. After all, Maureen Dowd is getting paid to write her snarky, hateful and biased column.

    Parent
    It is frankly ridiculous (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by Serene1 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:49:23 AM EST
    trhe way the MSM and the Dem Obama supporters are trying to push Obama literally down our throats. There is a nominationa process going on. As per the rulz neither Hillary nor Obama has won enough delegates to be declared the winner yet the MSM overstepping its boundaries of objective reporting want to declare the frontrunner as the winner. Obama supporters and MSM keep threatening us that a long drawn out nomination may be bad for the candidate's chances. Well both Kerry & Gore had been nominated early on yet that didn't much help them. Whereas John kennedy got nominated very late after all the states had voted and taht didn't disadvantage him from winning.

    And if Obama is that strong a candidate he should emerge only stronger from the nomination process because unlike McCain he would be campaiging in many states still which should help him later.

    Also regarding tearing the party apart accusation, I believe by not allowing the process to play out fairly would be extremely damaging to the party and that is what will lead to tearing of the party rather than everyone not accepting Obama.

    Millions of voters have believed in and voted for Hillary thus making this contest so competitive. It is only fair to supporters of either side that the nomination process is as just and fair as humanely possible. That should be the Democtas prime concern today because only after that comes unity and all Democrats fighting together for Presidency etc.

    SDs don't buy the popular vote argument (1.00 / 1) (#46)
    by ibextati on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:10:36 PM EST
    The nomination is decided based on delegates. I think most superdelegates use the delegate matrix to make their decision. However, the popular vote argument can be considered if Hillary's lead in the popular vote is significant. Other than that i don't think superdelegates will overturn the 153 delegates lead that Obama has. Imagine in PA, 2.3 mil people came out to vote and 153 delgates were at stake.

    Can you tell us (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Marvin42 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:51:53 PM EST
    What else the SDs believe from your one of one complete survey? Because I know all of the media constantly wants to tell us what they think and no one has gotten it right yet. So you know something the rest of us don't, please share.

    Parent
    You don't think the SD's will overturn Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Anne on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:52:50 PM EST
    current delegate lead?

    Funny, no one thought the Titanic could sink, either.

    Something tells me that the SS Obama is navigating increasingly choppy water, and there might be an iceberg in its future.

    And no, Clinton is not the iceberg, she's the lifeboat that will carry the party to victory in November, and which the SD's will be happy to board when Obama's ship starts to sink..

    Parent

    What lost the election for Hillary (1.00 / 1) (#47)
    by JohnRove on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:23:13 PM EST
    It seems to me that Hillary got on the wrong side of the big issue, the war in Iraq.  She also voted for Kyl-Lieberman which made me think she was still on the wrong side of the war.

    She also called Obama naive for suggesting he would talk with all world leaders.  If you don't talk with world leaders the only alternative is to bomb the ones you disagree with.

    In the end she got on the wrong side of a key issue and she paid for it. All the electability arguments in the world wont change the fact that she was on the wrong side of a few issues and her hawkish rhetoric turned a lot of people off on her campaign.

    Oh please. (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:35:38 PM EST
    Obama skipped Kyl-lieberman.  He gets no points for that.  Nothing is lost yet.  Hill's real issue was having no caucus strategy.

    Parent
    Skipping it is better than voting for it (none / 0) (#57)
    by JohnRove on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:51:22 PM EST
    At least he skipped the vote

    Parent
    No, it's not. If he was against, he should (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by masslib on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:00:10 PM EST
    have voted against it.

    Parent
    Off topic (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Marvin42 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:54:48 PM EST
    But just to correct 2 things:

    1. She has not lost, nor has Obama won. I know the media says he has, but they also told us Iraq war was justified and right, so excuse me while I ignore them again.

    2. Iraq has nothing to do with anything at this point. I think she has made strategic mistakes, Obama camp made some great strategic decisions to exploit the system, and now he has run out of steam and is a losing proposition for GE.

    And btw I and many others will call Obama naive for saying he would talk to anyone without preconditions. Notice how quickly he is backing away from it, because, well, it is very naive.

    But that's what you get when someone has as thin a resume as he does.

    Parent

    It is all about Iraq (none / 0) (#61)
    by JohnRove on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:06:10 PM EST
    I think that may be the problem for Clinton, it is all about Iraq and who is most likely to avoid any more wars of choice.  

    I think especially Hillary Clintons comments about "obliterating Iran" make many people, including me, think that she doesn't understand the need for restraint in foreign policy.

    Parent

    You are chattering and misrepresenting facts (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Marvin42 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:20:12 PM EST
    I think it is purposeful. She never said anything about obliterating Iran, so please provide a link or correct yourself. She was talking about deterrence if they threaten other countries in the context of nuclear weapons.

    And these are just Obama talking points. Can you add anything insightful beyond that?

    BTW you have to have knowledge of foreign policy before you can make intelligent statements about deterrence, which is probably one of Sen Clintons biggest strengths over Sen Obama. Only simple minded analysis thinks that you can just talk to anyone and that peace and love will win over people who are determined to grab power.

    Parent

    Iraq is at the center of it (none / 0) (#63)
    by ibextati on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:33:17 PM EST
    Obama won the iowa caucus because white liberals liked his anti-war messsage. And the reason he continued to win red state caucuses is because of iraq. African Americans only helped him in the southern primaries. If it wasn't for white liberals who financed his campaign, Obama wouldn't be at this position.

    Parent
    Oh so much wrong with this post (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Marvin42 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 02:37:42 PM EST
    First: he is NOT in this position because of "white liberals who financed his campaign." I don't even support him and I can see this is massively diminishes his accomplishment. Obviously has anti-was message has had traction, but not for a while now imo.

    He is where he is because he played the system well, and more importantly he instantly got the entire media behind him (to a ridiculous degree). Add to that CDS and the fact that apparently it is totally acceptable to have sexist attitudes (which I was not aware of before) and you are here.

    Iraq has nothing to do with it. Its a good story and talking point though. The "heroic" senator standing up against something everyone knew was wrong when he had nothing to lose.

    Parent

    Why she lost? 2 reason (1.00 / 1) (#53)
    by ibextati on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:45:12 PM EST
    1. Back in the 80's and 90's, Hillary was a good liberal. However, while in the senate she started to move to the center because she had her sights at the whitehouse. The iraq war vote is one example. That ticked off a lot of white liberals.  

    2. During the primaries not only she kept on playing the centrist position but also she ran like a republican, which is a fatal mistake in a democratic primary where liberals rule.


    Parent
    Setting herself up for the general election (none / 0) (#55)
    by JohnRove on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:49:53 PM EST
    She was trying to set herself up for the general election, by staking out what she thought was the center.  I think she misjudged the mood of the country plus she misjudged how much that would piss off rank and file Democrats

    Parent
    Describing a fighter: (none / 0) (#34)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:22:14 AM EST
    "I made my mind up: I can make it.
    I'll be fine even if I gotta fake it.
    I'll keep surviving..."

    -Aretha Franklin, "Another Night"

    Found this on my list for dogs with paralysis'; it's a sig line for a woman helping her dog fight for its life.  Somehow seems appropriate for Hillary, but I hope she does more than survive!

    Hey! What's the object of this game, anyway? (none / 0) (#68)
    by s1m0n on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:28:35 PM EST
    Hillary has won ZERO electoral college votes; none were on offer.

    When you're picking presidents, you don't pick someone who doesn't even know what game they're playing.

    This doesn't even make sense (none / 0) (#71)
    by Marvin42 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:26:59 PM EST
    I mean if you are trying to get a rise out of people or make an argument please at least try to make sense.

    Its amazing the increase in number of new posters that have appeared here recently that seem to be on a mission.

    Parent

    Hilary's argument (none / 0) (#73)
    by yourkidding on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:35:33 PM EST
    has always made a lot of sense. Face it, Obama is not going to carry PA, nor FL, nor MI. In the end we will see he is no more viable than Kerry.
      I'm sorry to say this as I will vote for him, but then I voted for Kerry & Gore & I was sure Kerry was going to lose.