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Friday Afternoon Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:13:45 PM EST
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I just got off a call with other bloggers and Senator Hillary Clinton. She was very impressive. I'll add some thoughts about it later.

Senator Clinton placed great emphasis on seating Michigan and Florida. You can let the DNC know how you feel by using this form created by the Clinton campaign.

This is an Open Thread.

Comments closed

< Electability | A Blogger Call With Hillary Clinton: It's the Map Not the Math >

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    Friday Afternoon Open Thread | 192 comments (192 topical)
    I was on that call. (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by masslib on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:19:36 PM EST
    She didn't sound like she was quitting.

    No she did not (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:21:19 PM EST
    I liked the emphasis on Michigan and Florida.

    [ Parent ]
    Me too. You did good. (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by katiebird on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:22:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You too (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:29:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I still "cling" to hope (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:36:33 PM EST
    that is is not over.
    I have never been able to make myself believe we would do what it seems we are about to do.
    but then I had the same feeling in 04.


    [ Parent ]
    You would not have loved my question (none / 0) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:41:11 PM EST
    it talked more about the importance of Hillary's candidacy beyond her winning and losing.

    [ Parent ]
    Well I LOVED your question (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by katiebird on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:44:59 PM EST
    (I'm still shaking though, so details are beyond me.)

    [ Parent ]
    Oh and thank you (I really am shakey) (none / 0) (#83)
    by katiebird on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:45:34 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You did a great job. Thanks. (none / 0) (#178)
    by oculus on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:15:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I can cling (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:45:24 PM EST
    and still be reality based.

    [ Parent ]
    One Reason Why She's Not Going To Quit (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:46:40 PM EST
    before she's touched all the bases.  Her candidacy is bigger than her and she knows it.

    [ Parent ]
    Just Realized (none / 0) (#136)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:21:04 PM EST
    I picked up the phrase about rounding all the bases from Avedon Carol.  

    [ Parent ]
    Definitely agree. (none / 0) (#159)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:11:03 PM EST
    She's not just Hillary Rodham Clinton, Former First Lady and sitting Senator.

    She's the
    First
    Ever
    Competitive
    Candidate
    for the
    Democratic Nominee for the President of the United States.

    What she does determines how seriously the next female candidate is treated.  If Clinton just folded up the tents and handed a hard fought nomination to Obama, then the next time people will be reluctant to back a woman candidate.

    Obama might be in it for himself but I think Clinton is in it for herself and all women.  What she does can move women forward or set them back.  That's an incredible burden to take on.

    Symbolism is important.

    [ Parent ]

    How incredibly... (none / 0) (#175)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:10:52 PM EST
    ....presumptuous and arrogant:

    Obama might be in it for himself but I think Clinton is in it for herself and all women.  What she does can move women forward or set them back.  That's an incredible burden to take on.

     I'm....stunned.  Senator Barack Hussein Obama is not taking on an incredible buren????

     But he is just in it for himself.  She is the only altruist.  Please.  

     I suspect they're both in it for both themselves and for their belief that they can move this country in a better direction.  It is their supporters who seem to want to engage in a competition of milestones.

    [ Parent ]

    If you say so. (none / 0) (#187)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:00:12 PM EST
    Obama has yet to prove he's much of anything to me except an egotist and and opportunist.  Those aren't bad qualifications for a Generic Politician, but I really do look for a stronger resume in a Leader.

    And I swear the guy never looks past tomorrow at times.  How could he cling to a pastor who preaches a innately divisive BLT at the same time he's branding himself as the Great Uniter?  Crikey!  Get a clue and lose the Black Versus White preacher before you set out to Unite the 50, 48, 57, whatever states.

    I've been around long enough to see how people grow and mature (except for GWB) and Gore, Hillary, Bill and Jimmy Carter are on my list of solid people.  Obama is just a novelty act right now.  Unique, interesting, but the show business phrase "Leave them wanting more!" could be interpreted two ways.

    If I was going to vote for a black politician for President, I'd much prefer Conyers.  There's a man I can trust and rely on.  No hyperbole there, just hardcore principles and well aged pragmatism.

    But alas, the "democratic" process is not like ordering from a Chinese menu.  We get A choice, not OUR choice.  So I get to choose between a not ready for prime time, never done battle with the Right black man or a white woman who not only has been there and done that, but she's done in gubanatorial races, two Presidential races and two Senate races with the Right and national media breathing down her neck.

    I don't like surprises.  I don't gamble.  

    [ Parent ]

    Sounds like a great question (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:47:21 PM EST
    I hope you plan to blog that, for sure.

    The absolute value of her candidacy is impossible to ignore. I've said before that I sincerely hope that parents of children old enough to understand what is going on should be encouraging them to pay close attention to Hillary, no matter who they support.

    [ Parent ]

    Nah I liked it (none / 0) (#172)
    by daria g on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:01:23 PM EST
    Listening now.  Great point about not backing down to the media.  I wish more blogs on the left were as dedicated to pushing back against the noise machine as I thought they'd be (that rule seemed not to apply when it was about using any/all rightwing talking points to attack Hillary).

    [ Parent ]
    Actually, given your preface, and (none / 0) (#176)
    by oculus on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:11:57 PM EST
    acknowledgment that you, although not a Clinton "supporter" [causing me to wonder, how did you sneak into that conference call?], are impressed with her candidacy, emphasizing the salient issues facing the Democrats, and then asking how she sees party coming together, given the hard and fast factions at presentthe Clinton faction of the party.  Quite good.  It was clear from her response you two think the same; well, except for the bottom line maybe.  Good job.

     

    [ Parent ]

    We have to.... (none / 0) (#70)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:42:24 PM EST
    if we give up now, the Republicans got the honor of choosing both presidential candidates and we are no longer a two party system.

    The media is Republican, and they have played such a huge role in keeping Hillary away from the win.  

    I'm baffled at why the DNC played the role they did, though I think their reasons for pushing Obama to the perceived winner slot are different than the Republicans.


    [ Parent ]

    BINGO (none / 0) (#142)
    by befuddled on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:35:07 PM EST
    The Repubs have created Obama. And the ones who are going along, among the powers that be, are probably after Obama's mailing list, or some equally valuable by-product of the primary. This is why I think it's not really going to save the Democratic Party to vote for Obama if he's the nominee. I believe the evidence is in his own contradictions, and in his past with the Chicago politicians where he learned his trade.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm Not Sure (none / 0) (#179)
    by CDN Ctzn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:15:57 PM EST
    I'm not sure we're a two party system now. To have a two party system requires one of the parties to be the loyal (to the electorate) opposition. At least that's the way it works in a Parlimentary system.

    [ Parent ]
    the media is (none / 0) (#188)
    by Saxon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:00:21 PM EST
    republican?

    wow, where did you get that?
    what next? obama is republican?

    [ Parent ]

    Have you ever considered the possibility (none / 0) (#81)
    by Upstart Crow on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:45:12 PM EST
    that the Dems actually LIKE losing the top spot?  

    After all, if you lose you can resume your time-honored role in the Greek chorus, shouting "Woe, woe, woe" as all the Republican nasties come down.  You can feel self-righteous as you point out that you predicted it all.  All without having to get your hands dirty or take responsibility for anything.

    Maybe that's why they hate the Clintons.  The Clintons like winning.  They really like winning.

    [ Parent ]

    She said that she has no intention (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by katiebird on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:46:20 PM EST
    of letting the Democrats lose this fall.  None.

    [ Parent ]
    And I am absoutely sure she means it (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Practically Lactating on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:05:51 PM EST
    If it were me...well let's just say she's a much bigger person that I am.

    I initially took my time picking a candidate, but Hillary has truly turned out to be a daily inspiration for me. That's something I never thought I would say about a politician. I continue to be flabbergasted by her strength, grace, and perspective through all of this.

    [ Parent ]

    ditto (none / 0) (#129)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:12:24 PM EST
    the Obama people has never acted like the wanted my vote so they wont get it from me.
    but she might.

    [ Parent ]
    Ain't that the truth.... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:17:58 PM EST
    ...much as I hate to admit it at the moment.

    [ Parent ]
    Then (none / 0) (#108)
    by Upstart Crow on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:53:19 PM EST
    she'll stand alone on this, as so many other things

    [ Parent ]
    It is my fervent hope that, if Obama (none / 0) (#114)
    by oculus on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:57:43 PM EST
    is the nominee, Clinton will be able to reach those who supported her but say they will either vote for McCain or not vote for anyone for President.  

    [ Parent ]
    She'll reach some (none / 0) (#145)
    by samanthasmom on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:39:04 PM EST
    but not all. The movement to deny Obama the presidency is growing, and she won't be able to stop it.  A small town radio talk show host in PA is getting calls from as far away as Utah and Wyoming this afternoon from women who are joining forces to vote against Obama should he win the nomination. Some will vote McCain, and some will only vote down ticket.  Writing Hillary in is problematic for some. The Obama folks have called in with the usual arguments and have been treated respectfully, but pretty much dismissed. Hillary supporters have been called "hysterical", "emotional", and "spiteful".

    [ Parent ]
    Too bad, in my opinion. (none / 0) (#147)
    by oculus on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:40:51 PM EST
    But then I'm one of those old fogeys who worries about Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to choose.

    [ Parent ]
    GOP... (none / 0) (#154)
    by Cal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:05:08 PM EST
    ...won't let Roe slip away from them.  What the heck would they have to campaign on in the future? Are you kidding?  I'm sure it's a fantastic fundraiser for them.  

    [ Parent ]
    They'll certainly let Roe go... (none / 0) (#158)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:09:51 PM EST
    ...and they're using judges to do it.  Reversing Roe just returns the question to the states, so we'll have something like what we have with same-sex marriage and civil unions: a patchwork of laws, some more restrictive than others, and a couple of federal laws (i.e., the partial birth abortion ban).  

    [ Parent ]
    that was spot on! (none / 0) (#189)
    by Saxon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:03:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Someone tried the same tack on the Host (none / 0) (#157)
    by Rhouse on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:09:28 PM EST
    of the show and he shot it down.  While he's not voting Obama he never urged others not to vote and he was particularly emphatic about voting down ticket races.  If the Dems. voted in progressives into office they would help preserve gains and actually do more for democracy than letting their party bully them around.  Also as I said elsewhere, the tone of the voices of the callers told the story of the anger and disrespect felt by the callers.  The host, a 40 year voting democrat who voted for Jesse Jackson, told how p*ssed he was to be called a racist because he voted for Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    This statement here makes me shudder. (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by PainKillerJayne on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:34:01 PM EST
    The host, a 40 year voting democrat who voted for Jesse Jackson, told how p*ssed he was to be called a racist because he voted for Hillary.

    This is the exact reason I do not visit some of my old haunts anymore. It got to be too much.

    [ Parent ]

    I have often (none / 0) (#135)
    by magisterludi on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:18:50 PM EST
    wondered this myself. I mean, a dem president and Congress would mean they would have no excuses, especially with a projected larger majority in both Houses.

    Pretty heavy.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama then McCain (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:23:02 PM EST
    Whoa, McCain really took a chunk out of Obama this afternoon with his speech. If that's a hint of how Obama will be vetted and exposed, I wouldn't want to be him. Obama will lose his ego PDQ.

    Even Susan Turnbill, VP DNC, was on FOX just before McCain gave his speech to the NRA, and she said that Bush's comments in Israel were directed at McCain, not either of the Democrats. She pointed to McCain's stand last year that they should meet with Hamas. Double bite.

    That was an interesting exchange.. (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by daria g on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:57:51 PM EST
    I haven't reviewed all the back and forth in great detail.. but Chris Matthews this evening seemed to think Obama was a brilliant amazing genius of all time and hit the triple play of looking presidential, tying Bush to McCain.. and.. I guess the third was making a tingle go up Matthews' arm or something.

    I thought it was completely different and didn't play well for Obama at all.. I thought he fell into a trap.. just like last summer.

    [ Parent ]

    i agree (none / 0) (#191)
    by Saxon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:07:01 PM EST
    if Bush criticized a nameless entity and obama steps forward to be the victim/target, what does that tell you about obama. i thought bush had jimmy carter in mind ...

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (none / 0) (#193)
    by daria g on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:19:09 PM EST
    Bush always does that.. put out there an absurd caricature of some unnamed opponent and see if some of them are going to step out and take the bait.  So Obama stepped up and said, that's me, and then had to get defensive about it?  I don't see how it helps him whatsoever - and other Democrats shouldn't have had to step in, I think.  Don't feed the [troll] Rove.

    [ Parent ]
    CA SD Carole Migden wants to hear from voters! (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by xdemocrat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:23:39 PM EST
    Finally! An SD who has the gall to ask constitutuents who they would like her to support!

    http://www.carolemigdenleading.com/forum.asp

    GO THERE AND POST YOUR COMMENTS!

    Thanks to her for this great opportunity to communicate directly, to have an SD reach out.  Not surprising though, since Migden is an indominitable and caring legislator who has her own outstanding long list of important legislative accomplishments on health care, the environment, and many others.  Show her your support too!

    Thank you. I did. (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by zfran on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:37:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    done! thanks (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by thereyougo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:47:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Me, Too! (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by AmyinSC on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:58:04 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    What accomplishments? (none / 0) (#167)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:51:33 PM EST
    This is off-topic, but with all due respect, I found Sen. Migden to be one of the rudest and most abrasive of state legislators that I'd ever met personally, while I was a member of the Nat'l Conference of State Legislatures.  She was at once condescending and totally self-absorbed. And from what I hear, she's also managed to alienate any number of her Assembly and Senate colleagues on more than one occasion during her tenure up in Sacramento.

    I know that Migden's been battling a low-grade leukemia for the past decade, and that certainly has to have taken its toll on her, so I should be more charitable toward her.  But all in all, she's still a rather strange bird -- and I sure wouldn't want to be on the same freeway as her.

    [ Parent ]

    Went there, did that..heh. nt (none / 0) (#194)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:23:57 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I really enjoyed the earlier post on (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by bjorn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:24:23 PM EST
    electability. There was a lot of good stuff in the discussion.  Just wanted to thank everyone, I just finished reading through all the comments.

    This is (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:28:22 PM EST
    a fantastic blog is it not?

    Fifty loud cheers for Jeralyn and BTD! They are the greatest!

    Now only if more Obama supporters were like BTD.

    [ Parent ]

    Now if only... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:30:44 PM EST
    ...more Clinton supporters were like BTD. ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    They won't let me in the club (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:30:47 PM EST
    and to be fair, I have never been a proponent of Obam per se, I have thought him more electable and my views have changed on that since Wright.

    [ Parent ]
    Ah. (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:35:25 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I think the fact that they (none / 0) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:40:39 PM EST
    "wont let you in the club" tells me all I need to know.

    [ Parent ]
    If they were more like BTD (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:35:51 PM EST
    I wouldn't be here!

    Like I commented in TINS' diary today - the overwhelming hyperpartisanship in the blogosphere made blogs like this one really stand out.

    When Good Blogs Go Bad     - Next on FrontLine!

    [ Parent ]

    Hillary (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by tedsim on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:28:39 PM EST
    Hillary rosen today on msnbc said hillary has no intentions to goto the convention and cause devisevness in te party.I hope she does that is the only way she can win.Mybe she is trying to get the press off her back and waiting for something to happen.I have a feeling she might win oregon because of bad press.

    Oh, lord. Hillary's supporters are so weak kneed (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by masslib on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:40:58 PM EST
    at times.  She had better take this to convention.

    [ Parent ]
    Why, so we can spend even more time (2.00 / 1) (#88)
    by independent thinker on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:47:17 PM EST
    argueing amongst ourselve instead of campaigning agains GOPer Pile McCain? I just don't see how that benefits us. I completely agree that the remaining contests should happen. I Also believe that some deal will be worked out regarding MI and FL after the final votes are in. At that point, the candidate with the most delegates should be declared the presumptive nominee so we can get to the real work of defeating McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by Steve M on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:01:38 PM EST
    Some people believe that choosing the strongest candidate is a critical step in beating McCain.

    We may disagree over who the strongest candidate is, of course, but it's not a minor administrative detail to be "gotten over with."

    [ Parent ]

    are you suggesting (none / 0) (#183)
    by Josey on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:35:34 PM EST
    the penalty for FL & MI will be any different had the Rules committee met today??  or last month?
    The Committee seems to be running out the clock for Barack.


    [ Parent ]
    I think rosen is right (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:31:42 PM EST
    but you would not know it from this call today.

    [ Parent ]
    Two Things (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:43:55 PM EST
    1. While I'm about 90% sure Obama will be the nominee, he's not quite there yet.  If he were, the SDs would end this and Obama wouldn't have to plan a Mission Accomplished announcement on May 20th, nor would he have to bring out Edwards yesterday in by all accounts a hastily arranged announcement.  He'd wait because he could and it would be better for him in the GE.  He may be the prohibitive favorite, but he hasn't sealed the deal.

    2. There's two ways to go to the convention.  There's continuing to fight over the summer, which I don't think she'll do if the SDs break for Obama after the end of voting.  She'll be seen as divisive and she won't want that (I also think she really does believe beating McCain is paramount).  Then there's racking up delegates and waiting to see what the summer and the GOP do to Obama.  You can go to the convention without saying you're going to the convention.

    Speaking of candidates taking things to the convention, Anglachel has an interesting post comparing the Democratic race this year to the 1976 Republican race.  I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, but it fits in nicely with my belief that far from building a new movement, Obama is simply the new face of the old power structure and Clinton is the one truly putting together the coalition of the future.  Although there is something disconcerting about seeing Hillary Clinton cast as Ronald Reagan.

    [ Parent ]
    declaring himself the "winner" (none / 0) (#184)
    by Josey on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:37:30 PM EST
    merely accentuates Obama's elitism and arrogance.


    [ Parent ]
    its like the republican (none / 0) (#72)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:42:55 PM EST
    argument for setting a date for withdrawal from Iraq.
    why tell them?


    [ Parent ]
    The answer is (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Steve M on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:47:39 PM EST
    there are some superdelegates who believe, rightly or wrongly, that it will be bad for the party if this thing goes to the convention.

    If Hillary gets too strident about taking this thing to the convention, she risks having those superdelegates endorse Obama just to get the thing over with.  That's why she's made some efforts to suggest that this thing will get sorted out once the last vote is cast, to persuade everyone to wait until June.

    [ Parent ]

    Nothing Is Set In Stone Until The Convention... (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:58:13 PM EST
    In 1992 when Jerry Brown took his campaign to the convention only having 600 or so delegates, did the party fall apart?  I am guessing no; so we need to stop painting these doom and gloom scenarios, Hillary will be perceived as a b!tch, she's tearing the party apart b.s. and move forward.  If SD's are trying to take the easy way out, they need to be removed too, along with the DNC'ers who have helped create much of the mess we have seen.  SD's, keep your powder dry, DNC seat FL and MI in the appropriate fashion and get on about the business of choosing a nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    she has the perfect excuse (none / 0) (#102)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:49:39 PM EST
    until FL and MI are dealt with.

    [ Parent ]
    You'll Like This...Richard Wolffe Was Asked (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:06:25 PM EST
    how obama can win over voters in FLA...his answer:  he has to go there and speak their language, sit down and eat tacos with them...WTF?
    The eating tacos advice should go over like a lead balloon with the HUGE Cuban and Puerto Rican groups there.  Of course, that probably means obama will order tacos.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep, some super delegates like (none / 0) (#105)
    by masslib on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:51:17 PM EST
    Ted Kennedy.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (none / 0) (#117)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:58:46 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    What? (none / 0) (#121)
    by Upstart Crow on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:02:02 PM EST
    Don't you think that's already happening with SDs?  Look at the post-WVa show: "Our vote cancels yours."  Helluva message to the voters.

    [ Parent ]
    Clinton won't win in OR (none / 0) (#60)
    by independent thinker on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:36:51 PM EST
    Sorry, but that just isn't going to happen. According to RCP:
    Oregon 53.3 - 39.0 Obama +14.3

    KY on the other hand will go her way:
    Kentucky 30.0 - 58.7 Clinton +28.7

    [ Parent ]

    I Don't Think She'll Win Oregon, Either (none / 0) (#137)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:22:08 PM EST
    And saying she might raises unrealistic expectations not just among supporters, but worse among the media.

    [ Parent ]
    what bad press? (none / 0) (#77)
    by Lil on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:44:19 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Check out the headline at The Page (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:30:00 PM EST
    barack Obama meet Karl Rove.

    Roves remarks about Obama were even more devastating than McCain's and were quickly followed by more bashing from Republican Senate Leader Mitch McConnell.

    the supers had better wake up before it's too late. Congressional dems cannot spend the next 4 years, or even 4 months, defending Obama if they want to get any actual work done.

    Karl Rove:

     "Let me tell you what's distracting -- it is distracting to say change when you have no experience of making real change. .... It is distracting to say that an American flag on a lapel is a substitute for patriotism ... then this week start showing up with an American flag on your lapel...."

    As always (5.00 / 5) (#43)
    by madamab on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:32:41 PM EST
    attackmeister Rove knows just where to place the needle and slide it in.

    Are we done complaining about mean ol' Hillary yet?

    [ Parent ]

    I remembered a narrative. (5.00 / 8) (#80)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:45:11 PM EST
    It's a minor narrative, but it's a persistent one:

    It's great for a woman to compete against men, just so long as she doesn't make the men look bad.

    And I think you'll find that there are "feminists" who agree with this.  Women out there, doing their thing is all well and good, but they should never make men look bad.  If that means deferring to men or pulling their punches or not saying a single negative thing, ever - so be it.

    I think that kind of subtle misogyny is out there.  It's people saying that Hillary is almost as good as the men, but never, ever, admitting she could be better.  It's people always finding some reason that Hillary just couldn't do it, is doomed to failure.

    Keep an eye and ear out for it - I think you'll find it.

    [ Parent ]

    Excellent comment. (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by madamab on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:49:03 PM EST
    Right on the money.

    [ Parent ]
    the media (none / 0) (#186)
    by Josey on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:45:52 PM EST
    doesn't differentiate "attacks."
    iirc - Hillary attacks Obama on his record.
    otoh - Obama attacks her personally, her record, and distorts her positions.

    But the media pundits say Hillary has "stopped" attacking Obama because she "knows he's the nominee" blah blah blah...

    [ Parent ]

    So...has Obama stopped (none / 0) (#190)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:03:53 PM EST
    attacking Clinton because he's obviously got the nomination all sewn up and he can afford to be magnanimous?

    If the narrative is true, then this would be the obvious conclusion.

    Personally, I hope Obama keeps going after Bush and McCain.  Gives us a good look at what his performance in the GE will be.  (And because I'm just a little bit evil.)

    [ Parent ]

    Rove (none / 0) (#173)
    by Nadai on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:03:54 PM EST
    is just about the only thing that might sway me to vote for Obama should he win the nomination.  I still loathe the Republicans more than Barack Obama, and Rove exemplifies the worst of Republicanism for me.

    [ Parent ]
    Robert Mondavi passed away today. (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:32:08 PM EST
    A true legend, icon, and pioneer.

    RIP

    I watched tons of PBS cooking shows (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by andgarden on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:40:27 PM EST
    when I was a kid, and it seems like his company sponsored half of them. RIP.

    [ Parent ]
    Indeed (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:38:41 PM EST
    As much as anyone he made the American wine industry.

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary has some new ads for the next (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by thereyougo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:32:10 PM EST
    contests despite being in debt of 20 mil. going for
    the working class vote

    http://tinyurl.com/3se5vn

    More Rove...good lord Obama is not ready for this (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:32:53 PM EST
    Via Armbinder:

    "We know what he's going to say-- it's divisive, distractive, keeps us from coming together. After all, he says, we are the change we have been waiting for. What the heck does that mean?"

    "Does it mean we've been keeping ourselves waiting? Why was change late anyway? I don't get it. Let me tell you what's divisive. It is divisive to undermine the Second Amendment, to undermine to constitution of the United States."

    "It is divisive to say one thing and do another, to belittle the values of the people -- which is exactly what Obama was doing in San Francisco. Our answer is no we won't."

    Rove is good at this (5.00 / 5) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:34:38 PM EST
    you must admit.

    [ Parent ]
    I have no problem admitting that (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:48:21 PM EST
    he is very good ad it. That's what I am afraid of. Why do you think he has been subtly pushing for Obama?

    [ Parent ]
    He is good (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Steve M on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:48:28 PM EST
    but we really do make it easy for him.

    Didn't I always say that the flag pin was an own goal?

    [ Parent ]

    The Flag Pin (5.00 / 5) (#110)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:55:03 PM EST
    is an example of how Obama takes an "issue" and makes it worse.  First he stands up for not wearing one, something I respected and I'm betting many other Americans did as well.  But then he totally caves in an effort to reach out to "working class" voters.  This is idiotic because many of these voters are already democrats and as Paul Krugman has pointed out are less likely to vote on God and guns than affluent suburban GOP voters.  It's also condescending.  Hey, I know you don't like me, but I put on a flag pin!  As if it's some sort of superman outfit that can make up for his failure to connect with these people by speaking to their needs.  And he loses all the points he got for standing up on this BS issue.  

    Just because an "issue" is stupid, doesn't mean you have to handle it stupidly.  

    [ Parent ]

    Choose your battles (5.00 / 5) (#119)
    by Steve M on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:00:11 PM EST
    The proper response to the flag pin question was "oh, I got dressed in a hurry today, didn't mean anything by it."

    If you want to make some kind of hopelessly highbrow point about faux patriotism, the only people who will respond to it are the ones that are already certain to vote Democratic.

    There is no political ground to be gained by voluntarily engaging on symbolic issues of patriotism.  In my view, you can only lose.

    [ Parent ]

    True (5.00 / 4) (#122)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:03:28 PM EST
    But having engaged in battle, it's even stupider, IMO, to then surrender.  It just makes you look weak.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 4) (#126)
    by Steve M on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:06:50 PM EST
    This is the traditional Democratic way.  Make a statement that all good Democrats can be proud of, and then embarrass us all by spending months backing away from it.

    [ Parent ]
    Also... (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:33:24 PM EST
    Make a speech widely lapped up as the Greatest Speech Ever, lecturing the public about how if we had a more sophisticated and nuanced appreciation of race relations in this country, we would understand Jeremiah Wright better. Emphasize that you can no more disown him than your grandmother, or the entire black community.

    Then, a few weeks later, disown him completely even though he hasn't said anything new in that time.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (none / 0) (#146)
    by Steve M on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:40:44 PM EST
    I might be imagining things, but I'm pretty sure Rev. Wright said a lot of new things in that time, including his controversial appearance before the National Press Club and the interview where he said Obama was just being a politician in his earlier denunciation.

    [ Parent ]
    He said a lot of things... (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:49:59 PM EST
    ... but as far as I could tell, he mostly reiterated the things he said before when asked if they had been misinterpreted. To me at least, he didn't say anything qualitatively different than all the things he had said before.

    The one new things, as you pointed out, was that he suggested Obama was being motivated by politics in distancing himself. Obama did say he was "particularly" angered by that. I wish he had been particularly angered when Wright tore into Clinton during his Christmas sermon.

    [ Parent ]

    You Beat Me To It! (none / 0) (#151)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:55:32 PM EST
    Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    From What I Can Tell from the Transcript (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:54:56 PM EST
    instead of the media portrayal of it, there's not a lot new.  I don't agree with everything he said, but it seemed like standard Wright stuff to me.  If anything, some of the more outrageous comments read much better in context (which isn't to say there aren't still some problematic things being said).  The only really new part was calling Obama a politician.    

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not so sure (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Upstart Crow on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:12:52 PM EST
    it was as stupid as it looked.  Maybe some folks were trying to suss out whether he was withholding his flag pin because it was more important to make points with folks like Ayers and Wright and the youth crowd.  I think it was an attempt to see who "owns" him.

    And we found out. Obama's ambition owns Obama, and he'll turn himself inside out like a glove for the nomination.

    The man is an invertebrate.

    [ Parent ]

    One of the Best (5.00 / 6) (#104)
    by BDB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:50:29 PM EST
    And you can see how he's going to take the way Obama's campaign has run against Hillary and use it against Obama in the fall.  It's very smart.  The Democrats may be too stupid to notice how many people Obama has alienated this campaign, but you can bet the GOP know.

    [ Parent ]
    Unlike the media or many Dems (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by andgarden on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:52:19 PM EST
    the Republicans are sure as hell aware that Obama hasn't closed the deal, and why.

    [ Parent ]
    Yup. (none / 0) (#95)
    by Fabian on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:48:09 PM EST
    I'd probably put him on my team, just to keep him from working for the opposition.

    I've refrained from punching Obama's rhetoric full of holes, but the opposition will be happy to.

    [ Parent ]

    if we are lucky (none / 0) (#98)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:48:35 PM EST
    he may be busy defending himself.

    [ Parent ]
    I just heard an awful commentary (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by liminal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:33:00 PM EST
    by whathisname on All Things Considered.  It was ridiculously condescending "advice" to HRC about how to "wind down her campaign with dignity."  She's actually been quite extraordinarily dignified in the face of a rather undignified and idiotic commentariat, and I think she knows a bit more about winning elections than whatshisname.  So there.

     

    A new name for us! (5.00 / 5) (#48)
    by janarchy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:33:20 PM EST
    I was reluctantly listening to Ron Reagan on Air America on Wednesday and he and his co-host had a new name for the white working class voters who won't support Obama. Apparently now they're 'knuckleheads'. Who knew? Listening to the two of them made my blood boil.

    Also, the new meme from him (along with Tweety) is now "no one I know has ever said Hillary should drop out of the race! Hardly! We want it to go all the way to convention because we like the excitement!"

    Do they really think we're that stupid or that old that we can't remember one moment from the next? Or does their Kool-Aid also include a ret-con drug which changes their memories of things? (Me, I'm younger than Obama so I know I'm not 'old').

    Looks like Huckabee (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by cannondaddy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:35:30 PM EST
    just took his name off the VP shortlist.

    what did he do? (none / 0) (#166)
    by bjorn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:50:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Jeez. (none / 0) (#168)
    by lilburro on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:51:45 PM EST
    During a speech before the National Rifle Association convention Friday afternoon in Louisville, Kentucky, former Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee -- who has endorsed presumptive GOP nominee John McCain -- joked that an unexpected offstage noise was Democrat Barack Obama looking to avoid a gunman.

    "That was Barack Obama, he just tripped off a chair, he's getting ready to speak," said the former Arkansas governor, to audience laughter. "Somebody aimed a gun at him and he dove for the floor."

    Huckabee

    Ohhhhhhhhhhhh.  I mean....WTF?

    Get a bunch of Republican leaders together, and they will not disappoint.  That's why I think McCain defending Hillary is rubbish.  

    Also, note in the article the use of young McCain.  Interesting.  Why are their campaign colors yellow and black though?

    [ Parent ]

    He made a rather appalling "joke". (none / 0) (#171)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:01:10 PM EST
    Perhaps Mike can take Jerrod's place in a new Subway's ad campaign next TV season.

    [ Parent ]
    New commenters 20 per day (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:00:48 PM EST
    Commenters here for less than one month are limited to 20 comments per day.

    You are at 23.

    For those who were listening to radio commentators (4.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Rhouse on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:38:03 PM EST
    I've been listening to the people who have called in about "Turning Down Obama" on the PA radio station near Scranton (WILK-FM).  It's not the words but the vocal tones of the callers which is revealing, the people are not happy and are set to either write-in Hillary, not vote for Pres,, or hold their nose and vote for McCain.  The host calls himself a radical Democrat for the last 40 years, and is railing at Howard Dean for not running the party.  It's been fierce and partisan and really not a good thing to hear if you think there is going to be party unity anytime soon.  Hell, even the concerned trolls who showed up near the end were basically told off by other callers, and if the party wants them back, from there voices I don't think they can.

    (Oh great now they're playing the Pennsylvania Polka)

    What do people think of Obama's (none / 0) (#1)
    by MarkL on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:16:06 PM EST
    remarks today?

    You mean... (5.00 / 0) (#8)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:20:57 PM EST
    where he reiterated that the US should engage in discussions with Iran...but backed off from his pledge to meet with Ahmadinejad?

    [ Parent ]
    ASAYGT (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:44:15 PM EST
    "as soon as you get this"
    comments closed before I could post that in the other thread.

    [ Parent ]
    lol (none / 0) (#87)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:47:01 PM EST
    great...thnx

    ;-P

    [ Parent ]

    hello Kredwyn (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by diplomatic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:07:04 PM EST
    you are very good at decryption, you bohemian you.

    [ Parent ]
    Like many of Obama's statements ... (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Robot Porter on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:27:52 PM EST
    it had a distinct lack of pith.

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmm... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:29:27 PM EST
    You can never have enough pith.

    [ Parent ]
    I Am Sure He More Than Made Up For It In (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:48:36 PM EST
    b.s.

    [ Parent ]
    Not good (5.00 / 0) (#78)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:44:53 PM EST
    Same old same old Democratic whining about mean old Bush, unfair, blah, blah, blah.  Sounded like Kerry, exactly the response the Republicans both expect and count on from Democrats.  I think it may actually have been a bit of a test.  If so, Obama failed.

    Hillary and Biden both had, I thought, much better tougher smackdowns.


    [ Parent ]

    I'm watching MSNBC (I know I know) (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by kayla on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:11:36 PM EST