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Does Unifying The Party Involve The Clinton Wing?

In praising John Edwards' excellent speech yesterday endorsing Barack Obama, Paul Rosenberg makes a case for John Edwards as the VP candidate. The case is a pretty good one. With one exception, the blithe disregard for the Clinton Wing of the Democratic Party. Paul writes:

I know that in terms of unifying the party, putting a woman on the ticket would be an excellent move. But putting Edwards on the ticket would put the election away. Because of the unique dynamics of this race, it would be one of the rare examples of when a Vice Presidential candidate really can sway an important, if not crucial demographic--the very "Regan Democrat" demographic that McCain cannot win without. . . . Most importantly, Edwards on the ticket would be a powerful figure for healing the deep rifts that have divided our party in the past, and that clearly still linger in hearts of many . . .

(Emphasis supplied.) More . . .

Setting aside the rather, to put it mildly, rosy expectations regarding Edwards' appeal, isn't there something missing from Paul's discussion? Yep, that's right - Hillary Clinton and her supporters. Any woman can unify the Party. Hillary Clinton is viewed as having NO appeal with voters. It is rather funny when you compare it to the high regard that Paul has for Edwards' supposed appeal to voters.

The more I read from Obama bloggers and the Creative Class, the more I become convinced that driving the Clinton wing of the Dem Party out is one of their primary goals. I hold to my view that the Obama Wing of the Democratic Party needs to decide what is more important to them, winning in November, or destroying the Clinton Wing of the Democratic Party. I doubt they can do both.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only.

Comments closed

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  • Display: Sort:
    I was an Edwards supporter early in the race ... (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by Robot Porter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:40:53 PM EST
    but it wasn't an "excellent speech."

    Especially not the "only one man" bit.  

    Either that was Edwards in stealth snark mode .... or it was something that should have been discussed in your previous diary.

    I'm certain he sd. it that way to (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:43:49 PM EST
    make sure he wasn't excluding Hillary Clinton.  There's only one man--please note I didn't say a woman couldn't do this stuff.

    [ Parent ]
    Which would be a pretty snarky thing ... (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Robot Porter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:48:09 PM EST
    to do in an endorsement.

    "There's only one person who's name ends in a vowel in this race who can face up the challenges of this time."

    ;)

    [ Parent ]

    Completely agree (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by IzikLA on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:00:10 PM EST
    As much as I was dismayed by the endorsement, I think a lot of people here got this part of the speech wrong.

    I am pretty sure he kept saying "one man" as a pointed way of not saying "one candidate" for good reason.  The implication of "One candidate" would be that Hillary couldn't unite the party.  He took efforts not to say that.  It may have come across to some people the wrong way, but I think it was actually a way of not belittling Hillary.  I do think he has tremendous respect for her.  

    [ Parent ]

    given the timing of Edwards announcement... (5.00 / 7) (#79)
    by p lukasiak on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:04:45 PM EST
    I do think he has tremendous respect for her.

    if that's how he treats people he respects, I can't imagine how he acts when it comes to those for whom he has contempt.

    It really was a slap in the face -- an "oh no you DON'T".... and the whole "one man" thing rubbed it in.

    [ Parent ]

    Perhaps (none / 0) (#149)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:31:52 PM EST
    it was a reference back to "cojones" and Carville's intent to say she can go against any man, any time.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe Elizabeth wrote that part? (none / 0) (#161)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:36:51 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I keep saying...Edwards endorsement is a feint. (none / 0) (#10)
    by cosbo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:44:25 PM EST
    But we'll see how it plays out.

    [ Parent ]
    A feint? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Emma on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:48:26 PM EST
    A feint for what?  I mean, what is there time for it to be a feint for?  This is it.  This is the final hour, D-Day and there's the beach, win or go home.  There's nothing left after this.  Clinton takes it now, or she doesn't take it.  And if she takes it now, all she gets is to take it to the Convention.  She can't win outright, not before the Convention.

    How could this be a feint?  It's now or never, there isn't time for anything else.

    [ Parent ]

    also this (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:41:46 PM EST
    "I doubt they can do both"
    I doubt they can do either.

    My thoughts exactly (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by flashman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:48:40 PM EST
    The only thing they can really do is ruin the party's chance to get elected on 2008.  The party, and the Clinton wing, will survive in tact.  Death to the raiders!

    [ Parent ]
    I am convinced after yesterday (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:42:18 PM EST
    Obama sprung the endorsement when he did to mute the calls for him to o.k. Clinton on the ticket w/him.  Edwards will be his VP.  They will both lose to McCain, espec. since CA will be in play with the "Marriage is between a man and a woman" and/or judicial recall likely to be on the Nov. ballot.  

    Is Rosenberg an Obama supporter now?  Lost track.

    Do people (5.00 / 10) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:42:49 PM EST
    really think this is a good idea? Have they all lost their minds. Edwards couldn't help Kerry and he won't help Obama.

    Why don't we just run Kerry again then? At least he could "unify" the party. Feh.

    What is the saying, if you do it wrong once (5.00 / 7) (#12)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:46:00 PM EST
    keep doing it wrong over and over.  

    [ Parent ]
    The definition of insanity (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by joanneleon on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:20:57 PM EST
    is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

    (At least I think that's the saying you're talking about)

    [ Parent ]

    And Then There's the Counter (none / 0) (#174)
    by The Maven on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:40:55 PM EST
    which says, "fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again."

    [ Parent ]
    ROFL (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:41:42 PM EST
    IF Obama actually gets the nomination, and IF he gets a chance to choose a running mate, he is welcome to choose whomever he wants to take down with him. Edwards is already a 3X loser in presidential races, and he was only a 1 term Senator.

    I am pretty sure Hillary won't be choosing him as her running mate.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:53:14 PM EST
    he's a good dem then. We keep doing the wrong things over and over.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm pretty sure (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by andgarden on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:47:49 PM EST
    that even Kerry could pull off a win in this electoral climate.

    [ Parent ]
    Better than Obama. (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:49:20 PM EST
    At least Kerry has experience, and is a war hero like John McCain.

    Obama has zero shot unless he's VP.

    [ Parent ]

    I like your optimism, although I don't (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:50:43 PM EST
    share.  Yet, the GOP House of Rep. campaign chair on NPR this a.m. sounded really defeatist.  

    [ Parent ]
    The GOP (5.00 / 7) (#50)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:56:56 PM EST
    is absolute toast in the House. They are losing dozens of seats because incumbents are refusing to run, and they will lose many more this year.

    If the GOP House of Rep. campaign chair were optimistic at this point, I'd want to check him for uppers.

    However, the Presidential race is an entirely different story.

    [ Parent ]

    If I was the GOP chair.... (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by p lukasiak on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:16:04 PM EST
    I;d be guardedly optimistic...

    In all the self-congratulations that of Democrats, no one seems to have noticed that in order for Childers to win, he had to completely disavow any association with the "Presumptuous Nominee" of the Democratic Party.

    I mean, when saying "my opponent was endorsed by Barack Obama" is described by a Democratic candidate as an attack, there is a lot to be concerned about.

    [ Parent ]

    But it worked. (none / 0) (#129)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:22:50 PM EST
    The GOP is toast in the House.

    The chairman of the RNC, however, is probably turning cartwheels.

    [ Parent ]

    I think not (none / 0) (#154)
    by Salo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:33:42 PM EST
    he had a confusing persona.

    He had no appeal outside New England.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama cannot win the presidency... (5.00 / 6) (#6)
    by cosbo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:43:20 PM EST
    without Clinton supporters. His vitriolic supporters are driving themselves off a cliff and laughing all the way. Too bad, the faith of the country or even the rest of the world will probably be at the bottom of that cliff us.

    The democratic party has been divided and conqured by the republican media. AGAIN.

    Non-Clinton supporters just don't get it (5.00 / 8) (#8)
    by vicndabx on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:44:16 PM EST
    The vast majority of her supporters like her because of what she brings to the table, who she is is simply an added bonus.  Until they understand that, there will be no unity.

    Absolutely right. (5.00 / 11) (#20)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:48:19 PM EST
    Atrios made this very same point near the beginning of the campaign.

    We are not voting AGAINST Obama, we are voting FOR Hillary.

    The Obamasphere seems to think everyone shares their irrational hatred of HRC. It's unbelievable how blind, deaf and dumb they are.

    Especially dumb. ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    17 million of us in the bag (5.00 / 10) (#56)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:57:53 PM EST
    and they keep peering around under the sofa for...hmmm....who....lets see, now.. who could bring Democrats to the table...?

    Likewise all the vitriolic diaries at the big orange  Cheetopia saying its all the evil spawn of satan Clinton who won't quit, not understanding that  its us 17 million real Democrats behind her keeping her going!

    [ Parent ]

    Overshadowed (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:44:24 PM EST
    Clinton took Edward's populist agenda and did it ten times better.  I thought about it last night, and I bet John is rather peeved that she did a better job and took away his raison d'etre.  

    I Like John And Love Elizabeth (5.00 / 12) (#11)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:45:08 PM EST
    but I'm really confused as to why anyone could believe that Edwards can help Obama win the GE when he failed to help Kerry in 04.

    I don't believe that people vote the bottom of the ticket. IOW if a person doesn't connect with the nominee or his policies, they are not going to vote for that person.

    I do agree that destroying the Clintons seem to have a higher priority than actually winning back the WH.  

    He's not looking for the VP spot... (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by cosbo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:46:39 PM EST
    so talks of his VPness is irrelevant.

    [ Parent ]
    Huff Post headline sd. he'd consider VP (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:51:42 PM EST
    or AG.  Of course, often the headline there has no relationship to what is in the article.

    [ Parent ]
    Funny. 3 or so nights ago... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by cosbo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:56:49 PM EST
    he said he is  not interested. He will not do it. From what I read, he sounded pretty firm.

    [ Parent ]
    As firm as he sounded (5.00 / 9) (#71)
    by miriam on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:02:58 PM EST
    when he said he would not endorse?

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by dissenter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:50:54 PM EST
    John Edwards wasn't even going to be able to hold on to his senate seat. He did nothing for Kerry in 04. I still maintain that it will be the foreign policy stuff, Rev Wright and Ayers that will ultimately doom him. After all, they have to get Reagan Dems and those issues are going to overshadow everything else because they will be featured in 527 ads non stop for months.

    Barack Obama is just going to look too scary to moderate and conservative dems even if he promises that John Edwards will the Economic and Health czar.

    If Obama didn't have all that baggage, I think he could sneak across but he does have that baggage.

    [ Parent ]

    He needs (5.00 / 6) (#38)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:53:24 PM EST
    Wesley Clark or Joe Biden. Despite what Obama thinks, a few years of living in Indonesia as a child do not foreign policy expertise make. Obama needs massive cover on his National Security flank, which is extremely weak.

    He does not need John Edwards as VP. No one needs John Edwards as VP.

    Poverty czar, maybe.

    [ Parent ]

    If the GE is McCain v Obama (none / 0) (#188)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:47:14 PM EST
    this will absolutely be an election where people will be looking very hard at the bottom of the ticket.

    McCain because of his health

    Obama because of his absence of message

    [ Parent ]

    What's wrong with McCain's health? (none / 0) (#196)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:55:12 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    He's had melanoma. Says he's (none / 0) (#207)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:04:07 PM EST
    fine now.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh - (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:09:31 PM EST
    I knew about that. But he hiked the Grand Canyon last year and his 95 year old mother and her twin are still scooting around (and even campaigning for him), so I don't necessarily see his health as a factor.

    [ Parent ]
    Reagan Dems? (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:46:07 PM EST
    I could be wrong, but isn't the target those individuals that are an unusual mix of social conservatism and fiscal liberalism or those individuals that are social liberals and fiscal conservatives.

    Edwards ran a very progressive agenda so I don't see him having crossover appeal.  Edwards doesn't bring foreign policy experience, military experience or economic experience.  We are in two wars, need to change our foreign policy, have economic and domestic issues to deal with.  I don't see Edwards as having a broad base of experience (Obama is weak in several areas).

    Now, I'm going to be honest, jump on me if you want, but two effetes on the same ticket?  Nope.

    The Point Might Be (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by flashman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:56:36 PM EST
    That the so-called "Regan Democrats" are just moderates who were siphoned off by Regan's charismatic campaigns, and are now so disenchanted with the utter failure of the Republican Party to provide competent governance, that they are ready to go back.  But Obama's weakness amongst working class whites may portend a failure to capture them.  Edward's populist message just might work, who knows?

    [ Parent ]
    As the Lt (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by dissenter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:03:29 PM EST
    He can't give his populist message because Obama does not endorse the policies. He will have to speak the party line.

    I know blue collar workers may not have gone to college but how stupid does BO really think they are. I mean, come on. It is like another insult - I'm gonna pander to you now vote for me!

    [ Parent ]

    Why will it work now? (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:17:43 PM EST
    It didn't work in the primary.  Clinton is the one it looks like is attracting the working class, moderates, women etc. a significant portion of the demographics.  You can't capture all of her voters with one VP.  Obama needs at least 3.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, Really Doubt Clinton Will Be Selected (none / 0) (#127)
    by flashman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:22:46 PM EST
    and Edwards is probably expecting a quid pro quo.  I know Clinton would strengthen the ticket, but I'm not really considering it right now.  I see greater things for her, actually.

    [ Parent ]
    Slightly ot your comment (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Lahdee on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:57:55 PM EST
    but it got me to thinking about "reagan Democrats." I wish we'd stop calling them that after Clinton's wins in WVa, Ohio and PA. Perhaps Clinton Democrats? Oops, that maybe too much. How about just "go jump in the lake" Democrats.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't get it (5.00 / 10) (#16)
    by Steve M on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:47:18 PM EST
    Paul is usually so smart.

    Most of the talking points about Edwards' 2004 campaign are bogus (i.e. "he didn't help Kerry in NC"), but reality is that he does not have any kind of unique superstar quality among white working-class voters.

    Obama's biggest problem is not a race problem.  It is the "elitism" perception that has haunted Dems for decades, the failure to persuade working-class voters that you understand their concerns and will do something about them.  These voters simply don't perceive the causal connection between cleaning up the lobbyist influence in politics and solving the kitchen-table problems they face.  And the lobbyist thing was a big part of Edwards' schtick this year too, of course.

    If your problem is the exact same problem John Kerry had, why would anyone think you could fix it by choosing the same VP as Kerry?

    All of this, of course, is completely beside the point of BTD's post, which I agree with 100%.  As my wife was fuming this morning about the "sweetie" thing and wondering how she could live with herself if she voted for this a**** in November, it occurred to me that because she doesn't read blogs much, she has no idea how many women and Clinton supporters there are who are dealing with the exact same feelings she's experiencing.  It's a big issue that no one who cares about winning should ignore.

    Bingo! (5.00 / 4) (#39)
    by pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:53:28 PM EST
    If your problem is the exact same problem John Kerry had, why would anyone think you could fix it by choosing the same VP as Kerry?

    Edwards couldn't get his message across then or in this primary.  It's time to move on.

    [ Parent ]

    There really aren't any women who make (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by tigercourse on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:47:19 PM EST
    sense. Who, Napolitano? Won't carry her state and major electability issues. Who, Sebelius? Can't carry her state, not terribly interesting, no foreign policy experience. McCaskill? Can't carry her state, sort of an idiot.

    If Granholm wasn't born in Michigan, she'd make some sense.


    Meant Canada. And John Edwards didn't (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by tigercourse on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:48:35 PM EST
    help Kerry much.

    [ Parent ]
    love the idiot comment and (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:51:32 PM EST
    totally agree...btw shouldn't we wait to see if John Edwards endorsement does any good in Kentucky before we start talking about his appeal?

    [ Parent ]
    I have come to (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by LoisInCo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:58:32 PM EST
    loathe Claire. I hope someone runs against her (another dem) when she is up for re-election and gets rid of her.

    [ Parent ]
    Regarding Kentucky (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by IzikLA on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:08:59 PM EST
    I truly don't think the endorsement will help and I have a feeling that, yet again, it will only harden the support that was already there for Hillary Clinton.  We'll see but I think a big win is in order.

    [ Parent ]
    If my own reaction/response to the (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:00:33 PM EST
    endorsement is an example of how it was received, then,

    It hurt both of them. The timing and location showed a real intent to diss Clinton's
     win in WV,
     coming wins,
     and her battle to get the MI delegation seated.

    It must be really difficult for the politicians who have been unsuccessful in their own efforts to move into the presidency to face the prospect of both Clintons holding that office.

    It really feels like this entire primary has been about way too many petty personal agendas.

    Too much media and Obama talk right now. He is NOT the nominee and we need to get back to thinking and talking Hillary so, if there really is a Law of Attraction, we get the energy flowing the right direction.

    [ Parent ]

    You mean Canada n/t (none / 0) (#23)
    by Steve M on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:48:39 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Obama folks in denial (5.00 / 9) (#26)
    by nellre on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:49:59 PM EST
    The race is so close it could be called a statistical tie in the popular vote if you include MI and FL
    Nearly half of us actually voted for Hillary.
    I don't see these guys coming to terms with that.

    Heh. (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by liminal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:53:16 PM EST
    And this despite a long, loud, triumphalist clamor of WWTBQ by the media and <distaste> "creative class" </distaste> since Wisconsin.

    [ Parent ]
    If Edwards has such a huge (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by liminal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:50:10 PM EST
    appeal to voters, uh, why didn't Edwards manage to win a primary?  

    Sigh.  Sometimes I wonder if there's a brain-eating scarab in the kool-aid (I kid!  Don't kill me!)  

    I always liked he message, but I find him mildly suspect as the spokesman for the message, and an imperfect candidate to carry labor's message back to well, labor's audience.  I think he's sincere and I agree with much of what he says, but I think he appeals to the liberal wing of the working class rather than the Clinton wing of the working class, he lacks the aura of toughness that Clinton has earned over the course of the campaign, which really does appeal to voters - considerably more voters than Edwards managed to draw.

    The media wouldn't let him. (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by cosbo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:53:49 PM EST
    America as usual fell for it.

    [ Parent ]
    The media (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by liminal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:05:19 PM EST
    collectively hate HRC and have been declaring her a corpse walking since Iowa.  Through the course of the campaign, she broke through the brick wall and I think has emerged as a stronger, tougher, more appealing politician - especially to non-African-American working class voters - for it, so I'm not as willing to resign myself to the power of the media as you are.

    [ Parent ]
    while the media screwed Edwards... (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by p lukasiak on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:30:57 PM EST
    Edwards never did anything other than talk to get the support of progressives that were looking for a candidate.  

    In fact, except for Dodd's taking a stand on FISA, none of the candidates seemed to have cared about what progressive thought at all.  (Dodd failed to follow through on the attention that he got from his FISA stand; had Dodd adopted a much stronger populist stance across the board, he would have been the progressive's choice.  But I guess when you're from CT, and owned by the insurance companies, populism isn't an option.)

    Edwards political instincts sucked as well -- he thought he could knock clinton out of the race with Obama's help, and then be the last man standing.  If Edwards had any sense, he would have understood that their could only be one "anti-Hillary"....

    [ Parent ]

    Repugs were there too; went after Edwards hard (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Ellie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:37:40 PM EST
    IMO they feared Edwards hard and early to take him out first because he was the one they LEAST wanted to run against. Not only as outspoken as Howard Dean -- their last early victim -- but telegenic, passionate, good speaker, persuasive, cred on liberal and conservative merits ... and of course:

    GREAT HAIR!

    You'd think Repugs valued this the most the way they go on about it.

    Repugs haven't been as big a part of the HRC pile-on other than to add the occasional, Oh no she didden! in the way of encouraging the CDS "libruls" and RW @ss-kissers on TeamObama to show they're ready for the Upper Echelons of Villiage Idiocy.

    Dems who are doing all this knife-wielding to make room in the tent will find themselves at a party that no one wanted to go to on Election Night. Oh well, more sh!t for Donna Brazile, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid to eat, huh?

    [ Parent ]

    Dare I again mention he is a (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:55:28 PM EST
    highly-compensated plaintiffs' trial lawyer?  I agree--the message is excellent, but the person delivering it doesn't seem quite right for the slot.  Yes, I know Hillary and Bill are quite wealthy also.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:59:07 PM EST
    You may have a point - being rich AND a trial lawyer don't play to well to the masses.

    [ Parent ]
    Defense lawyers defending civil (none / 0) (#74)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:03:03 PM EST
    cases, are, of course, doing the Lord's work.  <snk>

    [ Parent ]
    Brain-eating scarab (none / 0) (#87)
    by Robot Porter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:09:40 PM EST
    Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    Edwards (none / 0) (#208)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:05:39 PM EST
    main problem, imo, was hooking up with Joe Trippi. Joe Trippi can turn a moderate into an angry fire breathing faux populist in a heartbeat.

    [ Parent ]
    Edwards? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Cal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:50:52 PM EST
    Really?  He was on the losing ticket last time.  Sheesh.  

    Edwards could bring in Reagan Democrats? (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by badu on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:51:25 PM EST
    Wow, thats really hard to believe.  I thought he was a smart guy too, but I have to wonder after that - the guy they call "the Breck girl" could bring in Reagan Democrats?

    They are Clinton Democrats. (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by madamab on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:05:31 PM EST
    They're voting for Clinton, not Edwards.

    If Clinton is not at the top of the ticket, they don't vote for her, since Obama has wasted so much time proving to them how unimportant, bigoted and stupid he thinks they are.

    Seems pretty obvious to me.

    [ Parent ]

    badu, I agree Edwards has no (none / 0) (#128)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:22:47 PM EST
    working class street cred, irrespective of his concern for poverty/economic justice. In the eyes of the electorate, he just doesn't convincingly embody those issues. With respect to Edwards and talk of Obama dangling a woman for the VP slot, did you see the link for the video upstream: "Who's the Next Obama Girl?"


    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#170)
    by badu on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:39:24 PM EST
    but its the kind of thing that gets thrown back in our face.  I'd rather keep criticism legitimate.

    [ Parent ]
    ok (none / 0) (#175)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:41:13 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I like Edwards and supported him (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:51:50 PM EST
    until he dropped out. He has a good message but a tin ear for politics and would be a drag on the ticket, for that reason and because he reinforces the 'elitist' meme and because frankly he's had his chance. Someone new is needed to reinforce the change theme. I don't know about "destroying the Clinton Wing of the Democratic Party" - wanting to reduce its influence is certainly part of what's going on.

    Unified Dem front = Clintons gone (5.00 / 5) (#35)
    by huzzlewhat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:52:04 PM EST
    As much as I'd like to think that Obama could offer the VP slot to Clinton and the two of them could ride to the White House on a wave of unity, I'm not sure he can, given the nature of the criticism he's used to campaign against her. He and Edwards traded no barbs that would call a VP slot into question. If Clinton were the nominee, she could pick Obama, because the core criticism she's leveled against him is that he's inexperienced -- and she could argue that he could gain experience as VP and be ready for the main spot in 8 years. But Obama's campaign against Clinton has called her divisive, secretive, dishonest, and lacking in character. At this point, if he believes all that is true, how could he justify wanting her as VP? He can't say that he doesn't believe it, because that would sabotage his message of a new kind of politics. He's painted himself into a corner on the Clinton-as-VP issue -- there's no place for her at the table he's set.  

    and there won't be desert for him 11/08. (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by hellothere on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:23:52 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Just today he lumped her in with Bush (none / 0) (#163)
    by Joan in VA on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:37:02 PM EST
    and McCain at a campaign event. How do you walk that back?

    [ Parent ]
    You might want to link (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:58:39 PM EST
    to a video clip of that for BTD.  I believe he still wants Obama to offer the VP to Clinton.

    Does Obama think he's going to get Clinton's voters doing that?  I can't wait till the Repubs get started on his statements and go after her voters.  It's going to be a bumpy ride.

    [ Parent ]

    Not Just That It Disses Clinton (5.00 / 10) (#37)
    by BDB on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:53:20 PM EST
    But it also makes it sound like putting a white man on the ticket is what's needed to win the white working class vote, as if that's the only problem Obama has, as if Edwards didn't lose the white working class vote to Clinton.  And he lost the white working class to Clinton because of women.  But, of course, there's no need to appease women voters, we'll fall in line like the good little sweeties we are.  Just threaten us with Roe and tell us we have no other choice.  

    Screw that.  I have a choice.  Loyalty is a two-way street and if they want my vote, they're going to have to ask for it.  And even then they might not get it.  I am that angry.*

    * Of course, these entitled men have no idea how angry a lot of women are because they do not think about us or worry about us as a voting bloc.  Just as the party leadership does not feel the need to fight misogyny.  It's a given we'll vote democratic until, of course, we don't.  The latest Rasmussen poll has 29% of democrats saying if Clinton isn't the nominee, she should make a third party run.  Any bets on how many of that 29% are women?  

    2-way street is it exactly: Dems give me NOTHING (5.00 / 6) (#115)
    by Ellie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:19:53 PM EST
    I'm infuriated beyond words with the tactic and talking point to pre-blame women for Dems' own ineffectiveness by holding Roe v Wade and SCOTUS and other "women's" issues over our heads.

    And doesn't that shameful diminishment of using vanishing constitutional rights like a Willie Horton fearmongering flash-card say all there is to say about what this Obama-bound Dem party is about.

    I haven't even started on why this oily posedown of proxies, mascots and shills to get HRC supporters into the herd is deeply insulting to us as free thinking people and as voters in a democracy.

    Since no one else has raised this, do I need to remind anyone that one's vote is one's own until cast, and no one has to justify why it will be / has been cast that way?

    Apparently certain groups have taken it upon themselves to demand (rather imperiously) that other individuals or groups explain why they intend to vote this way or that.

    This would be unthinkable to demand of, eg, rich older white men. Why aren't the news networks demanding that "the guys" at the studio declare and defend their allegiances on camera?

     

    [ Parent ]

    I applaud you! (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:21:30 PM EST
    Well said.

    [ Parent ]
    We've got a woman candidate... (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by lambertstrether on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:38:20 PM EST
    ... who's winning men, primary by primary. That's an amazing achievement, when I think about it.

    [ Parent ]
    I think he should have a series of VPs ... (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by Robot Porter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:53:57 PM EST
    to fit different occasions.

    A Veep sixpack.  Or Veep accessory kit.

    One for region, one for gender, one to match his mood on a given day, one because they photograph well together, and one for the buddy comedy version of this campaign.

    He'd need an entire platoon (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by echinopsia on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:19:25 PM EST
    to prop him up in all the areas he's lacking.

    [ Parent ]
    I posted this elsewhere (closed), but. (5.00 / 5) (#43)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:54:11 PM EST
    From The Corner (Again, I know it's the Devil's pit, but here's what's coming)

    "McCain should pray that Obama picks (he won't) John Edwards as VP--he brings no executive record of experience, and offers less ideological balance; he has a poor record of winning primaries over two failed runs for the Presidency, has never appealed to working-class whites, hurt the Kerry ticket as a mediocre VP candidate, did poorly in past and present debates, and went even harder to the left (in scripted fashion) in the primaries. Moreover, he adds to, rather than ameliorates, the sense of elitism and out-of-touchness that plagues Obama. For all the talk of growing up the son of a mill worker, voters remember 'the haircut' and that gargantuan house with the "John's room" inner sanctum. I'm afraid all that outweighs the photogenic youthful appearance and occasional glibness."

    If Obama picks (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:56:15 PM EST
    another woman, I'm done with him.  Besides, there isn't one mentioned that I'd want to vote for.

    I'm voting for the Dem, but I think (5.00 / 5) (#61)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:58:43 PM EST
    picking a woman - being a woman myself - just for the sake of saying he picked a woman would be a really insulting move on his part.

    [ Parent ]
    Why? (5.00 / 6) (#93)
    by kenoshaMarge on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:11:21 PM EST
    Aren't women interchangable? Take out one woman and plug another one in. Problem solved and all those women having hissy fits will calm right down and scurry back in line.

    [ Parent ]
    yep ... (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by cherubic18 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:31:52 PM EST
    All little 'sweeties' look alike ...  

    [ Parent ]
    On the topic (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by andgarden on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:56:54 PM EST
    I love that [Al Giordano http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1209 has decided we're a research project]. But frankly I think he's pretty dishonest about the whole thing. The comments he cites are ones that I personally object to, mostly, but he has nothing to say about our more substantive discussion. He was and is unable to name any realistic strategy to bring the Clinton supporters back into the fold. He variously claims (both in the comment thread he cites and in his new entry) that we don't have a problem, and that if we do have a problem, it's not his problem anyway.

    And he accuses Clinton supporters of being delusional? I think he and his friends need to get real, especially because it is going to be theirs and Obama's job to unify the party. The winner has to do that.

    Oops, Flubbed the link (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by andgarden on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:57:39 PM EST
    BTD, if you'll delete, I'll repost and fix it.

    [ Parent ]
    sounds like he went and got the (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by bjorn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:02:30 PM EST
    quotes that confirmed his hypothesis instead of really talking to some of her supporters.

    [ Parent ]
    Al is a good guy (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:07:59 PM EST
    As is apparent, we have a profound disagreement on this and many things (you should see us discuss Hugo Chavez). As I have stated earlier, I hope folks can see clear to treating Al with the respect he deserves.

    He is one of the good ones.

    [ Parent ]

    I believe it (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by andgarden on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:10:43 PM EST
    but I find what he's doing to be somewhat counterproductive.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Doesn't Need A Strategy To Bring (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:52:12 PM EST
    Clinton supporters back into the fold because we will all just get over our little tiff and fall in line in November.  Basically, once again it is that Obama does not need to change anything. It is the voters who need to change. Good luck to that.

    When 25% to 50% of self described Democrats say that they will not vote for Obama, it just might be an area for concern. IMO many on the blogosphere believe that everyone views issues the same way that they do without even considering what actually happened in the last two elections.

    Over and over again large segments of the population have chosen  respect and personal dignity over financial concerns, Roe v Wade is not a deal breaker with many voters and some conservative Dems prefer a hard line foreign policy.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm an Edwards gal and I still think (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:57:00 PM EST
    that if it isn't Clinton, it ought to be Wes Clark.

    I thought Edwards was brilliant and great last night, but he was speaking to Democrats and advocating Democratic unity.  I don't know that I think that his appeal in the GE would be as strong.  I would love it if it was, but I am a realist about my guy and I think he has a ways to go to establish the kind of cred that would really help a candidate as unknown as Obama.  Edwards isn't that well known himself.

    i like clark. why would you wish that on him? (none / 0) (#114)
    by hellothere on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:19:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Because I think that there is an elder (none / 0) (#195)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:54:48 PM EST
    statesman and simultaneously an attack dog quality to him that I think Obama will need to win.  Plus he has FP/Military cred as well as the fact that he is one of the few Dems who is able to not only hold his own, but also garner respect over at Fox News.

    [ Parent ]
    This is the dream team for folks who don't need (5.00 / 5) (#55)
    by esmense on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:57:40 PM EST
    -- and at heart don't understand or in denial about how much the country today requires -- so much more from politics today than hot air; two cute, telegenic guys who are as big on rhetoric as they are light on resume. Guys who have devoted immense amounts of time to talking, very eloquently, about issues they've spent very little, if any, time actually working on.

    The issues at hand are profound. Too profound to be addressed by a campaign of good intentions, big egos, zilch experience and unproven competence.

    I was an Edwards supporter. (5.00 / 5) (#58)
    by TokenLiberal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:58:12 PM EST
    When he suspended his campaign I studied the others and decided to support Clinton based on her being the next closest to the issues I cared about and her experience and determination. When Edwards endorsed Obama, I felt like a door had been slammed in my face or like they were forming a boy's club with the "No Girls Allowed" sign posted. If Obama expects my vote he needs to earn it - I don't ever want to hear how we'll "come around" again. And if the pundits think I'll vote for Obama just because Edwards is his pick for VP - they'd better think again.

    Well, you should consider the fact that (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:56:24 PM EST
    Edwards may have saved our hopes on his issues from being dashed by the Obama camp's win.  I am grateful to him for striking a deal that Clinton really can't.

    [ Parent ]
    I was hoping he wouldn't endorse. I think not (none / 0) (#217)
    by TokenLiberal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:20:05 PM EST
    endorsing made him seem above the fray and would make him more effective in presenting our issues - poverty, eduction, health-care, vet's issues, etc. While I believe his intentions are honorable I'm afraid that too many people will think he only endorsed because something was in it for him and could, possibly, make him less effective. Despite the facts, many people will be wondering "What's in it for him" personally and not thinking that he's doing it to further his issues. Wish that wasn't the case but that's, in my opinion, how'll many will react.

    [ Parent ]
    But why? (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Klio on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:58:26 PM EST
    You're right, they do seem intent on destroying the Clinton wing of the party.  I think they see Obama as a two-fer.  And without getting into the folly of that strategy, I have to ask Why?  Why would they want not only to destroy the Clintons politically, but estrange all their supporters as well?

    What is this new Democratic Party they envision?  What are its principles?  Where are its constituencies?  I'm just baffled.

    because the clintons (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by p lukasiak on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:41:45 PM EST
    ....the Clintons represent the non-elite -- both of them connect with "average americans" that few professional Democrats know how to do.  

    Ultimately, the Clinton's base is the American people as a whole and most Democrats are so used to playing "interest group" and "identity" politics that the Clintons don't fit in.

    Another factor is the media -- the Clintons "transcended" the Villagers and their petty concerns, and continue to do so.  Most professional Democrats live for media exposure, and getting stroked by the media -- they get a tingle up their leg if Broder OR Brooks says something nice about them.   And professional politicians aren't stupid -- Villagers keeps signalling to them that they don't like the Clintons, and that criticism of the Clintons is a great way to get positive press, and so the professional Democrats act like the trained seals that they are, and trash the Clintons and get their coverage as a reward.


    [ Parent ]

    Bob & Ray, "Garish Summit"... (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by lambertstrether on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:46:54 PM EST
    "There in stately splendor, far removed the squalid village below, they fight their petty battles over power and money."

    That's what they want: Money from Obama's new technology, and power over the party apparatus. They get cocktail wienies, win or lose. That makes control the must-have; and winning the nice-to-have. Sigh.

    [ Parent ]

    Here's (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:17:32 PM EST
    the way I see it:
    It's the old power brokers reasserting themselves. Nevermind that these power brokers have lost almost every presidential election. They really don't care about winning, it's all about their little power base maintaining power within that base. The McGovern/Mondale/Dukakis/Kerry left wing part of the party wants absolute control. Right now they have found an empty vessel to front their aspirations. Too bad Hillary and her followers aren't cooperating with this little charade.

    I have learned so much in the last few months it's been amazing.

    [ Parent ]

    This is a good example (5.00 / 9) (#64)
    by miriam on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:59:54 PM EST
    of the dismissive attitude toward women on the part of Democratic leaders. Just read this again:

    I know that in terms of unifying the party, putting a woman on the ticket would be an excellent move. But putting Edwards on the ticket would put the election away...

    In other words, yeah, it might be nice to have a some broad (obviously not the dreaded Hillary) on the ticket, but not if we really want to win.

    Here again is the assumption that women will just dutifully fall into line, once more, behind the party-picked male nominees.  I must say, I am not so sanguine about discovering, after lo these many years of being a Democrat, that I'm just a taken-for-granted cog in the mighty masculine wheel. What, ladies, are we getting out of this?  Disgusting, discriminating, hate-filled slurs against the first serious female candidate, that's what. But just imagine the howls of outrage if a significant number of women publicly vowed their refusal to vote for a male POTUS.  (And we'd probably only have to do it this once.)

    Why not this time? (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by soccermom on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:10:05 PM EST
    If you don't want to get thrown under the bus, don't get on it. This is going to be my personal Birmingham.  MLK had it right.  Boycott the bus.

    Sweeties for Hillary, unite.

    [ Parent ]

    SFHU? (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by miriam on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:19:16 PM EST
    I'm there. I'd already decided  I would not vote for Obama (and not for McCain either).  I wonder how many other women would announce this...and now, before it's too late.  It probably wouldn't matter now, though, because none of the Obama-males would believe us.

    Which may be precisely why it's important to take a stand. The blatant hatred of women exhibited in this campaign should never be allowed a repeat performance.    

    [ Parent ]

    I'm with you (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by badu on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:24:01 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    One more reason (none / 0) (#144)
    by dissenter on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:29:21 PM EST
    I am voting for McCain if Obama is the nominee. I want to ensure it is a message they never forget.

    [ Parent ]
    But voting for McCain (none / 0) (#185)
    by miriam on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:46:24 PM EST
    is a lost vote in terms of principle. And, I think, a bad idea for the country.  We'll just look like spoil sports. But, when the exit polls come in and a sizeable number of women (Democratic) are seen as simply having refused to vote for Obama, it could have a large impact.  In fact, I doubt he can win if enough women don't vote.  We have always been the stalwart voters of the Democratic party. It's time we started exerting some real influence on the choice of OUR nominee instead of being taken for granted and enduring nasty mysogynism in the process.

    [ Parent ]