The Creative Class' Condescension Towards Clinton Democrats

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:26:28 AM EST
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The narrative of the racist southern and/or working class white voter serves disappointed liberals by giving them a way to cope with rejection, and it serves Republicans by reassuring them that people can still be easily manipulated by racial bias.

A. Serwer, The American Prospect, via John Petty

As an elitist myself, someone who chuckled at the jokes about Bill Clinton's "feeling your pain," it has not been easy to see how the Democratic problem with white working class voters has been endemic. But this campaign season has opened my eyes. BTW, it is not about God, guns and gays. It is about standard of living. It is about respecting these voters.

In denial about Barack Obama's problem with white working class voters across the entire Eastern part of the United States (as well as parts of the Midwest and Western part of the United States), the Creative Class blogs are clinging to the fallacious Appalachian theory to explain Obama's problem with white working class voters. Josh Marshall now takes up the cause:

Obama's problem isn't with white working class voters or rural voters. It's Appalachia. That explains why Obama had a difficult time in Ohio and Pennsylvania and why he's getting crushed in West Virginia and Kentucky. If it were just a matter of rural voters or the white working class, the pattern would show up in other regions. But by and large it does not.

(Emphasis supplied.) This is simply false. By and large it does show up everywhere except the West, Iowa, Wisconsin and Virginia. It shows up everywhere else. And it shows up with women, seniors and Latinos too. More . .

As I wrote last night:

The West Virginia exit polls indicate that he lost white voters 69-28. Astounding? Not really. In Ohio, Clinton won white voters 64-34. In Pennsylvania, Clinton won whites 63-37. Indiana? Whites went for Clinton 60-40. Massachusetts? Whites went for Clinton 58-40. Rhode Island? 63-31 for Clinton. North Carolina? 61-37. And the same in Arkansas, Tennessee, Maryland, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Oklahoma, Arizona, Missouri and so on.

Obama has won the white vote in Iowa, Kansas, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Virginia, Colorado, Washington, Idaho, Utah, North Dakota, Nebraska, etc. West of the Mississippi all of them EXCEPT Wisconsin and VA.

West Virginia is not an anomaly. Obama's white working class problem is EAST of the Mississippi. It is not just Appalachia. It MUST be addressed. Calling West Virginia names is not going to solve the problem.

The Obama blogs are in deep denial. I hope the Obama campaign is not. It is fashionable now to have deep disdain, even disgust, for all things Clinton. It is time for Democratic politicians to learn some political lessons from the last Democrat to win the White House. Twice. "Feel their pain." Find a way to connect to these voters. Insulting them is not the way to do that. Heck, it is time to start insulting the elitists like me, Josh Marshall and the Creative Class.

The Obama Phenomenon needs a second act. The Change thing is so five minutes ago. Time to feel their pain.

By Big Tent Democrat

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The Creative Class' Condescension Towards Clinton Democrats | 220 comments (220 topical)

Well, God Forbid The Creative Class Sees (5.00 / 3) (#1)
by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:29:00 AM EST

themselves as wrong. They have to have someone/something to blame.

No kidding (5.00 / 3) (#105)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:02:10 AM EST

If you don't see it their way, you must be a racist, ignorant, or a victim of manipulation. How out of touch with realty can you get. Almost like BHO's San Francisco statement.

Signature Song
[ Parent ]

: The last time I tangled (5.00 / 6) (#173)
by joanneleon on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:27:30 AM EST

with a "contributing editor" from the so-called Creative Class, I was told that I was either "intellectually dishonest", or "not very bright."
No other options for this degreed engineer who spent the last 20+ years working with technology, including internet development, at times with some of the best and the brightest. I'm either a liar or a moron.
You'd think a sociologist would know more about winning friends and influencing people.
Also, something I've noticed over the years is that the most brilliant people I've worked with were neither arrogant nor dismissive. They were some of the most compassionate, open-minded people I've ever met, and they had no interest in ruling the world. They just wanted to work on good projects with small teams of good people.

[ Parent ]

No, they dont see themselves as wrong (5.00 / 0) (#182)
by Leisa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:31:16 AM EST

but maybe they will condescend and pretend they do.

I do not think they have it in them to "feel the pain" of anyone they deem beneath them. Contempt and disdain for the lowly are hard to disguise.

It is like Obama wearing the flag pin in WV. It did not seem authentic when he made such a big deal about how he would show his patriotism in other ways... Unfortunately, voters are asking for substance. People do not view him as unpatriotic because of the stupid flag pin... It is a culmination of words and events from him, his wife, his surrogates and Ahmed Yousef just to name a few.

So, I do not see how saying, "I feel your pain", at this point will connect with these voters. I do not see how he can credibly re-brand himself now. I think it will feel condescending. His disdain for those that disagree with him is impossible for him to conceal. I believe the damage is done.

[ Parent ]

he will feel their pain (5.00 / 11) (#2)
by Capt Howdy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:29:50 AM EST

in November. if he is the nominee.

Exactly. (none / 0) (#189)
by Lady in Blue on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:35:32 AM EST

[ Parent ]

But until then... (none / 0) (#193)
by kredwyn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:38:39 AM EST

The flag pin and a speech should do the trick.

[ Parent ]

: LOL! (none / 0) (#197)
by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:40:18 AM EST

Nice snarkage.

[ Parent ]

Great quote (5.00 / 13) (#3)
by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:30:48 AM EST

From Progressive Involvement

The narrative of the racist southern and/or working class white voter serves disappointed liberals by giving them a way to cope with rejection, and it serves Republicans by reassuring them that people can still be easily manipulated by racial bias.
A. Serwer, The American Prospect

I stole it from you Stellaa (5.00 / 3) (#16)
by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:37:47 AM EST

It is now at the top of my post.

[ Parent ]

: First thing I read today, said it all (5.00 / 2) (#23)
by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:40:03 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I'd take issue with that... (5.00 / 5) (#52)
by inclusiveheart on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:51:53 AM EST

Personally, I think it serves disappointed Obama fans. I'm more liberal than most of the folks I encounter who are devoted to Obama. Furthermore, my liberal values actually come from my ancestry in the Appalachian region and definitely do not come from my Minnesota/North Dakota ancestry. Marshall fails to point out the real reason my ancestors and other Scotch-Irish headed for the hills - it was Protestantism. It was religious persecution first in their home countries and then again in the "low-country". That is why it was a miracle that so many people like my Grandparents worked so hard for JFK. JFK worked hard on them though - that is why he did well in that region. He found common ground. Obama could too.

[ Parent ]

Not if he fails to visit there he won't (5.00 / 10) (#81)
by cawaltz on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:58:19 AM EST

I'm going to say it for the one millionth time. The arrogance of the Obama team needs to go. Less educated, less shcmeducated- these folks education is real world education- not the stuff you get at the university. Their concerns are real and based in what they see and feel on a daily basis. You don't win voters by discounting or denigrating them. The Obama camp had better learn that or get used to losing.

[ Parent ]

Numbers (5.00 / 10) (#143)
by Athena on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:14:56 AM EST

Al least 72% of Americans do not have a college degree. At least 66% of Americans are white.

Obama is not enough of a magician to factor out these demographics and win in spite of them.

Memo to Creative Class: you will not be able to think or buy your way out of the electoral resistance to your candidate.

[ Parent ]

Aw- (5.00 / 5) (#144)
by Fabian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:16:03 AM EST

-MEN!

Went to the Orange and got another dose of bigotry, as a commenter slammed West Virginians for being too stoopid and uneducated and racist to embrace Teh Obama.

Insult those voters! Lose that election! Goooo Team O!

[ Parent ]

: I actually read a comment over at MYDD that (5.00 / 1) (#165)
by Angel on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:24:58 AM EST

said that Obama let Hillary win West Virginia ON PURPOSE! LOL They are in deep, deep denial.

[ Parent ]

I am in 100% agreement with you. (5.00 / 3) (#149)
by inclusiveheart on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:17:42 AM EST

Although, I wouldn't pin this exclusively on the small circle of the Obama camp. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Democrats who do not believe in a bona fide application of the 50-State Strategy.

The Obama folks who are supporting him because they think he believes in the 50-State Strategy are going to be sorely disappointed with how he campaigns in the GE if he gets the nod. I promise that if past performance is any indication, once Clinton is out of the way, he'll be back in the same old Dem mode of campaigning in like three states and acting like the rest of the country doesn't exist.

And for me that is a global issue that keeps hurting us... I am still angry that Kerry couldn't find one lousy hour to stop in Alabama. I called the Alabama Dems during that election and they had nothing to do - NOTHING - I asked if there were any Kerry people reaching out to them or if there were any fundraisers, events or anything else planned. The guy told me that the Kerry campaign wasn't doing anything in Alabama. To me that's crazy. Then everyone gets all pissed off at those states for not voting for them even when they completely ignore and/or insult them. It is arrogance beyond belief.

[ Parent ]

If true that Obama finds difficulty (none / 0) (#180)
by felizarte on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:30:52 AM EST

with empathizing with working class Americans, this indeed surprises me. Considering his touted roots and multi-cultural, even international/multi-racial/multi-socio-economic exposure, does not seem to compute with his present inability to communicate with the above-mentioned class.

Was his earlier narrative somehow "enhanced"? Most people, having been exposed to different circumstances, can't help but be rendered wiser and more tolerant, more understanding and able to empathize with a variety of human conditions. This is just being humane. Perhaps someone could shed a little bit more light.

[ Parent ]

: Honestly, I don't think he is all that (none / 0) (#208)
by inclusiveheart on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:48:59 AM EST

warm and fuzzy as a personality.
I think there is something of privilege that comes through in his demeanor. He's a politician and a lawyer though so he has the training to act the part he needs to play.
Senator Clinton figured it out. She started out stiff, wooden and guarded. There isn't any reason why he shouldn't be able to figure it out too. I think he has become more stiff, wooden and guarded. No terribly surprising as presidential campaigns are trully brutal, but that's part of the test - seeing if a candidate can come through the ringer resembling something of him or herself at the end - and fit they can effect change and adapt where it is advantageous to their goals.
It is time for Obama to implement some of the change he talks about...

[ Parent ]

His old man a was a Rum runner (none / 0) (#94)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:00:30 AM EST

so the connection was deeper than anything you might expect.

[ Parent ]

: His old man was a Catholic though so (5.00 / 1) (#124)
by inclusiveheart on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:09:36 AM EST

the divide was deeper than you may realize.
A lot of people now don't really understand what it was like then where it came to Protestant mistrust of Catholics.

[ Parent ]

The trouble with (none / 0) (#25)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:41:06 AM EST

starting the fight in Iowa, is that Iowans probably look to NE for their image of the true liberal and thus confuse that with a generally appealing Democrat. Or a democrats who can win a fight in the environs of Penn and Ohio.

It seems that the Democratic party in Penn and Ohio has it's own ideas about what a Democrat should be. It's now awed by the plummy accents and college credentials in quite the same way--although i'm not knocking college (I grew up in Oxford)

[ Parent ]

I'm guessing here (none / 0) (#37)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:48:05 AM EST

St Louis semed to be a city in awe of New York culturally and the older aspects of NE like Boston. (Especially the art scene which is a leading indicator of other cultural aspirations)

[ Parent ]

No... (none / 0) (#160)
by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:23:39 AM EST

...Iowans do not look to the NE or anywhere else for our image of a "true liberal" We don't really care what the East Coast does or says. We are perfectly capable of thinking for ourselves, thank you.

You assumption is insulting and demeaning. Perhaps you should actually spend some time in the Hawkeye state so you wouldn't make these silly generalizations.

[ Parent ]

I've met a couple of guys from Iowa... (none / 0) (#196)
by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:39:33 AM EST

and they definitely had their own opinions about politics! LOL

That's why I'm not sure of Obama's (or Hillary's) appeal there. They seemed more like Libertarian-McCain voters to me.

Would love to be proved wrong in November.

[ Parent ]

: You won't they won't go Democrat (none / 0) (#213)
by Florida Resident on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:54:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Thank you -- the dissing of our Midwest (none / 0) (#219)
by Cream City on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:36:23 PM EST

can be done in so many different ways, huh? I take a deep breath and look up the map of the country as Easterners see it, the infamous New Yorker map -- and then I feel sorry for them, thinking that they're the center of the universe . . . when really, they're at the edge of our consciousness.:-)

[ Parent ]

All this has happened before. And will happen (5.00 / 18) (#4)
by tigercourse on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:33:06 AM EST

again. We do not learn from out mistakes. We barely admit that we made any mistakes. This party is on a mobius strip of failure.

Almost every single one of the party leaders have thrown themselves into this mistake whole heartely. They will not go away once this election is over. They're still going to be here in 2012,2016, 2020, screwing things up.

: Obama (D-Mobius Strip 8) (5.00 / 3) (#13)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:36:21 AM EST

lol

[ Parent ]

Bill has an ability (5.00 / 2) (#5)
by ruffian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:33:08 AM EST

to emphathise with people, which so far Obama has not displayed. I believe he does care about people, but he may never be able to show it in the way Bill does naturally, and Hillary is learning.

In the GE he is going to have to have Bill out there doing his empathy for him. Guess he should not have trashed him up until now.

I think Obama is the one who has to campaign his (5.00 / 6) (#88)
by indy woman on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:59:16 AM EST

heart out for the working class voters. If he ends up being the nominee, it will be immaterial if Hillary and Bill campaign for him. He is the one who has to make his own case for why the working class voters should vote for him as President. I am not sure that will change even if Hillary is on the ticket as VP.

[ Parent ]

I Don't Think That Anyone Else Is Going To (5.00 / 5) (#118)
by MO Blue on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:06:51 AM EST

turn this around for Obama in small town and rural MO. Obama after all will be the president that they need to trust to represent them. It has to do with dignity and respect. If you have the perception that someone thinks you are "less than," are you going to trust him to have "good judgement" or trust him to represent your interests? Also, the views of Rev. Wright and Ayers completely go against their ingrained value system.

[ Parent ]

What Bill C. himself said about it. (5.00 / 8) (#134)
by ghost2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:11:32 AM EST

"When I said, "I feel your pain", they made fun of me. They said I was pandering. But, you know, I didn't have the easiest upbringing." (parapharase)

Bill gets it, and the working class know that he gets it. For Bill and Hillary, government is still about helping the people and leveling the playing field. Hillary has turned into a pragmatic fighter (they both know you have to pick your battles), but inside, she is still the idealist she was.

I am always amused at those who call Bill Clinton a marvelous politician. You see, Bill has empathy with people, therefore, he can bring the policy points to them. Elites, on the other hand, pore over numbers, and think masses are too stupid to understand that universal healthcare is good for them. That is the big difference.

Aside: I bet you an old elite like John Kerry is still obsessed about ways of Washington, about who gets the credit. He never seems to connect with people on how the policies affects them. Funny thing is, in his defence of Obama's healthcare plan, he said that him and Ted have about 40 years of experience working on Healthcare. I thought, "and you have zilch to show for it. You and Ted still want to deny Hillary credit for SCHIP, even though absent Clinton, you never showed you were capable of passing anything".

[ Parent ]

: The Kennedy's used to have this (none / 0) (#157)
by JavaCityPal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:21:36 AM EST

gift, but Ted became old Washington along the way. He worked hard for senior citizens at one time. If Ted still had it, he'd be campaigning hard for Hillary.

[ Parent ]

Obama's arrogance and elitism (5.00 / 8) (#141)
by Josey on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:14:22 AM EST

is seen by his disrespect and immaturity in "brushing Hillary off" the bottom of his shoe and coat. And while the audience laughs, Obama smiles and feels good about mocking Hillary.
This level of meanspiritedness is a bad trait for a presidential candidate seeking to represent "all people."

[ Parent ]

: Great point Josey.... (5.00 / 5) (#192)
by Maria Garcia on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:37:41 AM EST

...and this is why it burns me up so much to see the media elites pompously blubbering about how Hillary has trashed Obama while pretending that he has done nothing but sing her praises. The American people saw that too, on YouTube on Fox. Many of them are no longer buying the "he's pure as mountain spring water" argument anymore because they can see past all the spin. So what's left? If they are all "just politicians" then why not pick the one who has proven she can do the job?

[ Parent ]

Obama will lose in the general election by a (5.00 / 7) (#6)
by Angel on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:34:10 AM EST

landslide. I think it's time to start the write-in campaign for Hillary Clinton if she doesn't get the nomination.

: I've switched to undeclared (5.00 / 6) (#68)
by nellre on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:55:16 AM EST

If enough former democrats re-register, switching to independent or undeclared... (it would have to happen en-mass) the DNC and the SuperDs might get the picture.

[ Parent ]
: Done (5.00 / 2) (#73)
by Athena on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:56:19 AM EST

I've got my pen.

[ Parent ]
: The write-in website is already up (none / 0) (#151)
by FlaDemFem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:17:47 AM EST

WriteHillaryIn.com is up and running. IF she doesn't get the nomination, her campaign must notify several states, including FL, that she wants to be a write-in candidate otherwise it's just a protest vote and won't be counted. I would love to see the faces on the pundits if Obama manages to wangle the nomination only to lose to Hillary by a landslide of write-in votes. Lots of Republican women may write her in as well.
Can't you just see Olberman's or Tweety's face as his earpiece tells him that Hillary Clinton is in the lead? With write-in votes?? I would rather see her get the nomination and go the usual route to the White House, but I'll take a write-in win too. I can also see the headlines in the European newspapers..."America's women ROAR". Heh.

[ Parent ]
: Working from an often faulty memory, but (none / 0) (#152)
by alsace on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:19:17 AM EST

when I tried to research this some time back...
Unless there is a slate of electors designated by the write-in candidate, the vote will just be ignored. Therefore, I've been keeping an eye on third party candidates who might get on the VA ballot. But maybe it's different in other states.

[ Parent ]
: I'm Writing In Hillary!! (none / 0) (#181)
by talex on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:31:04 AM EST

if Obama is the nominee.
I have the luxury of living in California where a Dem will win no matter who it is. We are a solid Blue State. So I can write in Clinton without fear of tipping the nomination to McCain. I hope millions of others around the country will join me.

[ Parent ]

I fear at this point (5.00 / 15) (#7)
by andgarden on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:34:29 AM EST

that none of these voters are going to be receptive to the message that Obama "feels their pain." They are already of the overwhelming opinion that he does not "share their values."

I'm not even sure a unity ticket would work in this case.

I am off the unity pony (5.00 / 9) (#42)
by Capt Howdy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:49:22 AM EST

I have heard enough insults about his need a food taster if she was his VP. yada yada.
it would not put him over the top and I hope she does not lower herself.

[ Parent ]

I finally stepped off it (5.00 / 7) (#53)
by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:52:00 AM EST

just a couple of weeks ago.

Takes a lot to get me to admit that a Democratic candidate is as bad as Obama. But he is, he really is.

[ Parent ]

: me too (5.00 / 3) (#162)
by Dr Molly on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:23:49 AM EST

I have shocked myself.

[ Parent ]

i have been off the unity train (5.00 / 3) (#64)
by hellothere on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:54:45 AM EST

for awhile. come enjoy the outdoors. the flowers are blooming.

[ Parent ]

: Too smokey (5.00 / 3) (#116)
by Step Beyond on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:06:14 AM EST

Too smokey outside today to enjoy the outdoors. But I can see from inside that FINALLY the hibiscus has a flower fully in bloom. The dogs have been ripping off any flowers that started to open up until this point. LIVE FLOWER LIVE!

[ Parent ]

I fell of the other day (5.00 / 3) (#104)
by Lahdee on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:01:28 AM EST

But I could be persuaded to get back on if he'd simply stop trying to blow up the Democratic party in the name of new politics.
Okay, not likely, but his people may read BTD.

[ Parent ]

I've concluded (5.00 / 1) (#154)
by Josey on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:19:48 AM EST

if Obama died of a brain aneurysm, Hillary would be blamed.

[ Parent ]

It's too late (5.00 / 7) (#84)
by lambert on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:58:41 AM EST

If he cared about doing that, he would already have done it.

[ Parent ]

I've been thinking about (none / 0) (#58)
by ruffian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:53:36 AM EST

what it might be like to grow up in Hawaii, even if your mother and grandparents are from Kansas. Maybe you do not get that real sense of connection with the rest of the country, and it can't help but show through in some way.

I wish he had tried to estatblish that connection before he ran for president, rather than during the campaign.

[ Parent ]

: They moved up gradually (5.00 / 2) (#148)
by JavaCityPal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:17:24 AM EST

they lived on Mercer Island (one of the most affluent areas of Seattle) for several years before moving on to Hawaii.
He was never raised in poverty, or even lower middle class. His financially comfortable grandparents were always there.

[ Parent ]

This contest has been an epiphany for me too. (5.00 / 3) (#8)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:34:45 AM EST

It's like the last piece of the puzzle that explains Kerry, Dukakis, Gore, Mondale, McGovern. And Kennedy's aberant behaviour in 1980.

Hopefully Obama (if he wins the nomination) is as smart as they say and he can confront the deficiencies of the Ivy-Masschusian-Bigwiggery in the party.

It doesn't look good though.

Agreed. (5.00 / 4) (#146)
by ghost2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:17:12 AM EST

But please leave Gore out. I have respect for him, and he hasn't yet joined the circus. The drumroll has so far failed to take him in.

I never saw Gore as equal to Dukakis and Kerry. Like Hillary, he cares, and is wonky and passionate at the same time.

[ Parent ]

: And like Hillary he (5.00 / 4) (#159)
by Serene1 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:22:58 AM EST

was subjected to a similar treatment by the MSM who were enamoured by Bush and the Dem elites who were enamoured by Bradley. See Daily Howler to further note the similarities. And thanks to the MSM and also Dem elites, Gore who should have ideally pushed for a recount in FL backed out because it was the "right thing" to do. And we all know where the "right thing" landed us.

[ Parent ]

Me too. (5.00 / 5) (#177)
by Ga6thDem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:30:09 AM EST

The way I have been sneered at and condescended to simply because I support Hillary has certainly given me a complete understanding of why working class whites don't vote for us.

I look at Obama who arrogantly expects me to vote for him and plans to bash me over the head with roe v. wade against McCain who is actually reaching out to voters like me, telling me my vote is important and working to get it.

[ Parent ]

Those are the guys he's trying to erase (none / 0) (#142)
by JavaCityPal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:14:33 AM EST

them, and their dreadful Washington ways. Obviously, they aren't listening to his words, either.

You forgot Carter.

[ Parent ]

Denial, BTD, barely (5.00 / 8) (#9)
by kmblue on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:34:50 AM EST

begins to describe it.
I've been reading around this morning.
I'm losing hope for any turnaround in their attitude.
Why is it so freakin' hard for this folks to admit even the possibility that they are wrong?
Instead, they are bound and determined to head off that cliff.

"head off that cliff" (5.00 / 10) (#21)
by Capt Howdy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:40:01 AM EST

IMO that is exactly what they are doing.
I had an epiphany last night. it was while I was watching Obama condescendingly respond to a question about the so called "dream ticket".
the epiphany was this: I am not voting for him.

[ Parent ]

I had that epiphany way back in February.... (none / 0) (#41)
by Angel on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:49:19 AM EST

I really really really tried (5.00 / 2) (#47)
by Capt Howdy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:50:16 AM EST

but Im done.

[ Parent ]

: If it's Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#167)
by Fabian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:25:06 AM EST

I'm voting for her.
If it's Obama, I'm officially undecided until November. A lot of people polling Undecided might also get attention. Of course, it might get the Republican's attention instead of the Democrats, but hey I can't be responsible for whatever Team O decides to do.

[ Parent ]

Denial for MSM maybe (5.00 / 5) (#50)
by nellre on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:51:02 AM EST

But the voters are still voting for HRC.
MSM has not been able to usurp the will of the people.

[ Parent ]

The Missouri speech (5.00 / 11) (#10)
by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:36:09 AM EST

frankly showcased the Obama weaknesses. He was awkward and dull as he was speaking about the things government must and should do for people. His alleged oratory, falters when he tries to communicated his practical leadership with people. The hope/change worked for the primary but it's played out and now Obama is showcasing that he does not have the goods for the GE. He will really show his inexperience.

You can see (5.00 / 9) (#46)
by Nadai on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:50:14 AM EST

a similar sort of dynamic with Bush. Whenever Bush is talking about destroying something, he's animated and fluent (fluent for Bush, anyway). When he's talking about helping people, he's incoherent, mixing up his words and mangling his sentences. It's a tell - you know he doesn't mean a word of it.

With Obama, the content is different and the delivery is much better even at his worst, but you can still tell that he's just not interested in details. It's the soaring rhetoric about abstracts that moves him. Actual policy is a bore.

[ Parent ]

Obama Is Completely Out Of His Element (5.00 / 9) (#49)
by MO Blue on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:50:59 AM EST

and it is so obvious that it can and will not be ignored. I don't think it is just inexperience. It is almost like he is in a foreign country and does not know the language or customs of the people there. Small town and rural folks are the "other" to Obama just as much as Obama is to them. I don't think that Obama can turn this around because he is just being Obama.

[ Parent ]

Remember how surprised he was when the (5.00 / 7) (#70)
by lorelynn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:55:58 AM EST

farmer wanted to talk about Burma? I couldn't believe a Democratic pol said that. He is truly clueless about rural life.

[ Parent ]

Missed that. (none / 0) (#171)
by Fabian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:26:34 AM EST

Got a link?
Thanks.

[ Parent ]

: Here's Something (5.00 / 1) (#211)
by The Maven on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:50:46 AM EST

I hadn't heard about this anecdote, either, but it was pretty easy to track down. Apparently it's something that originally came up in Iowa and was remarked upon by Obama last November in New Hampshire.
Looking at the video, one could either come away with the view that Obama was genuinely impressed by the range of issues he was being questioned about, or that he was poking fun at those wacky rural Iowans. I watched the clip a couple of times, and if I were predisposed one way or the other, I could easily be convinced either way.

[ Parent ]

say what you want about mccain, (5.00 / 4) (#75)
by hellothere on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:56:35 AM EST

i think he does better with the average joe than obama will. and i think that will be important in this campaign.

[ Parent ]

Obama in MO (5.00 / 6) (#98)
by Athena on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:01:00 AM EST

The MO speech was an embarrassment. He's already lost those voters, as evidenced by their indifference. They are not interested in his late-developed "plans" to rescue them. And all I could think of was his disdain for Hillary when I watched him do the best pander of the season - tax cuts for the audience.

Even the pundits seemed lost when they watched Obama without an adoring audience. Yes, there are real Democrats out there who are alert and unimpressed. McCain will get them, easily.

[ Parent ]

Only saw brief moments (none / 0) (#127)
by JavaCityPal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:10:10 AM EST

but, the people sitting right behind him would give just gratuitous applause, or none at all. Maybe they only there because they were told the speaker was going to be someone else.

He's up in Michigan today.

[ Parent ]

: I caught a bit of his speech (none / 0) (#201)
by felizarte on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:43:04 AM EST

about creating jobs: practically plagiarized Hillary's "we cannot keep companies from outsourcing jobs, but we can certainly stop giving them tax breaks for doing it,"
I was sick. This guy has no sense of embarrassment; appropriating someone else's plan as his own.

[ Parent ]

I hope he's adaptable. (none / 0) (#31)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:44:02 AM EST

Otherwise it's going to be a punishing experience.

[ Parent ]

: Who'll believe him? (5.00 / 3) (#147)
by Davidson on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:17:14 AM EST

If all of a sudden he starts going for the working class vote, hardly any significant portion of Clinton Democrats will believe him because he never comes across as genuine or even concerned about the working class; people will see it as the political ploy it is.
Besides, if he starts talking substance, policy, solutions it'll only lay open how inexperienced and unqualified he is, playing to Clinton's strengths. Remember, there's a reason why Axelrod totally avoided going the conventional routine: Obama can't win. The only way he could win was being "different." Thus, he can't win the GE.

[ Parent ]

He had to give up the minister (none / 0) (#115)
by JavaCityPal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:05:59 AM EST

oratory style after Rev Wright or risk sounding too much like a TUCC apostle.

[ Parent ]

why is no one talking about.... (5.00 / 16) (#11)
by Kensdad on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:36:11 AM EST

the fact that obama has been losing since March? why isn't that the story? that he was largely unvetted and unknown when he went on his 11-in-a-row win streak in february. now that the american public has gotten to know him a bit more, he has lost, TX, OH, RI, PA, IN, WV while winning in VT and NC...

is it even possible for him to turn things around by the fall? and why aren't superdelegates very, very nervous about that? isn't it their job to select the most electable candidate for the general election? why are they completely abdicating their responsibility?

You know who is talking about this? (5.00 / 4) (#22)
by andgarden on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:40:03 AM EST

Erick at Redstate.

The Creative Class is going to be massively disappointed at some point.

[ Parent ]

"greatest gift...to the GOP" (5.00 / 3) (#183)
by LHinSeattle on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:31:42 AM EST

thanks, andgarden. I just have to quote some of that:

In West Virginia, Obama Still Can't Win
I have to wonder how many members of the MSM will change the "Obama wins" narrative, at least only slightly, to recognize that Obama is, in fact, the weaker candidate in a general election match up with John McCain.
....When the sun sets on this election we might have to realize that the media's efforts to set up Obama as the Democrat nominee has been the greatest gift they've ever given to the GOP.

Ouch.

[ Parent ]

: Perhaps this is the MSM's (none / 0) (#205)
by felizarte on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:46:43 AM EST

SECRET AGENDA after all: let the weaker candidate face McCain who is their true love. I think that notion was mentioned several times in previous threads.

[ Parent ]

I think they've spent their lives (none / 0) (#179)
by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:30:28 AM EST

being massively disappointed.

They revel in it.

Their failings are always someone else's fault...and now they've found a candidate who feels the same way they do.

IACF! works for both them AND Obama, no?

[ Parent ]

Power play (5.00 / 13) (#27)
by nellre on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:42:39 AM EST

I'm seeing an effort to eject the Clintons from power in the democratic party. Obama is just the crowbar.

I wish I could be a fly on the wall in some of the leadership meetings.

[ Parent ]

the coup (5.00 / 5) (#43)
by Kensdad on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:49:37 AM EST

is being engineered by the losers: Kerry, Kennedy, Daschle, Dodd, Richardson, etc...

[ Parent ]

We need Shakespeare (5.00 / 4) (#89)
by magisterludi on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:59:34 AM EST

to rise from the dead and write this upcoming tragedy.

[ Parent ]

: Maybe Brecht? Arthur Miller? (none / 0) (#176)
by Fabian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:30:08 AM EST

Dada?

[ Parent ]

yup, they sit around yuking it up (5.00 / 3) (#100)
by hellothere on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:01:17 AM EST

planning the demise of the clintons all the while writing the script for their own.

[ Parent ]

: The really funny thing is that they (5.00 / 4) (#178)
by FlaDemFem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:30:10 AM EST

are planning the demise of the Clintons while Hillary is running over Obama with a big ole' combine. He is being thrashed like wheat. But he doesn't see it that way, he sees it as being behind with people who don't matter to him. The problem with that is that those people vote, and they won't be voting for him. If they can, they will vote for Hillary. Even if it means writing her in. I am giggling like a kid at the idea that Obama will be the first candidate beaten by one of his own party through write-in votes. Way to go down in history, Senator. Heh.

[ Parent ]

Because a lot of people decided (5.00 / 9) (#77)
by inclusiveheart on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:57:08 AM EST

that the primary was over long ago. Weird.

The opportunity to campaign in more than five or six states hasn't presented itself to the Democratic Party in years and we are gathering valuable insights as to how to win - problem is that a number of people have no desire to use that information. They just think they can't lose against the GOP so why bother. That attitude keeps getting Democrats into trouble. Many, many Dems celebrated when Reagan was nominated figuring they couldn't lose - we all know how that turned out.

[ Parent ]

: It's a treasure trove for (5.00 / 3) (#80)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:58:10 AM EST

research.

[ Parent ]

He also won (5.00 / 1) (#137)
by Faust on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:13:20 AM EST

Missisippi and Wyoming. Texas was very close. Indianna was very very close.

This race is now and has always been about demographics (though we didn't realize it till super Tuesday). There have been moments where those demographics have shifted, where one or the other side has made some inroads into the others demos, but really they have been remarkably stable.

All narratives that do not primarily root themselves in the demographic data, such as the "buyers remorse" narrative, and so forth are simply flights of fancy.

That does not mean Obama does not have a problem but the "get to know him a bit more" line you propose as the reason for his losses seems hard to support. His losses were completely predictable based on the demographic data. Indeed, Poblano, who has been predicting the primaries purely on the basis of demographics (as far as I understand his method) pretty much nailed W Virginia to within a percentage point.

[ Parent ]

: Nah, just look at BTD's #s (none / 0) (#190)
by LHinSeattle on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:36:40 AM EST

in his posts over the last few weeks. They show that BHO is losing % in categories as time goes on.

[ Parent ]

He can try (5.00 / 3) (#14)
by Edgar08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:36:40 AM EST

But it can't be a contrivance or it will backfire and make things even worse.

Maybe that went without saying. How was Bill able to "feel their pain" AND do so without it appearing to be an act of condescension at the same time?

Because (5.00 / 8) (#24)
by Emma on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:40:12 AM EST

Bill came from them. And he hasn't forgotten it.

[ Parent ]

The Obama movement (5.00 / 7) (#32)
by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:45:04 AM EST

failure. They subtracted clumps of voters to solidify their coalition. Now they don't have a clue how to add those clumps again. They subtracted them by demonizing cause that is what they learned from the Bush years. Truly pathetic.

[ Parent ]

: They are counting on the party (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by JavaCityPal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:53:20 AM EST

voter who can't vote Republican. They think they've expanded the party demographics so broadly they don't have to worry about the 30% (or more) who really won't vote for him.
PA showed that youth demographic didn't go to the polls, though.

[ Parent ]

And, he never forgot the (5.00 / 5) (#34)
by JavaCityPal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:46:03 AM EST

diversity of the country the entire time he was in office. He did exactly what he promised he would and the lower and middle classes were included in his policies.

[ Parent ]

Bill Clinton... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:49:56 AM EST

...and me, low company, the scum of the earth. Signed for drink and plunder. garrr...

[ Parent ]

Worth repeating. (5.00 / 1) (#164)
by ghost2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:24:23 AM EST

Bill came from them. And he hasn't forgotten it.

Very well put. I took two paragraphs upthread trying to say this.

[ Parent ]

Bill connected with people. and still does. (5.00 / 7) (#30)
by Capt Howdy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:44:01 AM EST

it is an ephemeral quality that is hard to appreciate if you have not seen him in a room in person. when he shakes your hand he has a way of making you feel like you are the center of his universe and there is no one in the room but you and him.
it may sound crazy but it is why he won.
it is the quality Obama does not have and it can not be learned.

[ Parent ]

I've seen the dude (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by Edgar08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:49:54 AM EST

In person. And yes.

But now we sound like cultists, don't we? LOL.

[ Parent ]

I worry about the counter-cult growing here now (5.00 / 2) (#63)
by Jim J on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:54:30 AM EST

I love this place, but I'm seeing an awful lot of people completely discount Obama's chances in November. Wishful thinking aside, the numbers and dynamic continue to favor any Democrat immensely. People can get as mad as they want about that, but all the numbers, including latest head-to-heads, bear it out.

Just trying to be objective, I know that's taboo on blogs these days.

[ Parent ]

: That trend would be a relief... (5.00 / 2) (#78)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:57:17 AM EST

...and welcome. It's possible that teh battle has been fought so hard because McCain is a walking cypher.

[ Parent ]
: the numbers (5.00 / 3) (#86)
by Kensdad on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:59:02 AM EST

show obama winning in a national poll vs. mccain, but not in a state-by-state poll... when you do that, he loses to mccain.

[ Parent ]
: Well (5.00 / 2) (#174)
by Dr Molly on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:28:31 AM EST

I've never said he can't win in November because I recognize that it is a hugely complicated mix of factors at play, and I don't have any desire to pretend I know what will happen.
It is so complicated - the racial, gender and class divides amongst the democrats; the strange difference in West vs. East voting patterns; the fact that McCain has some strengths with Independents but doesn't necessarily attract the Republican base; McCain's age vs. Obama's youth - good and bad; and the list goes on. I have absolutely no idea how it will turn out. All that said, I have never felt so detached about what the outcome will be. I have come to loathe Obama, but I've always loathed McCain.

[ Parent ]
: This was true in '72 also (5.00 / 3) (#204)
by esmense on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:45:44 AM EST

Democrats were convinced that ANY Democrat would win -- because of the great unpopularity of both Nixon and the war.
But a candidate who turned out to be truly unappealing, deep divisions in the party created by the primary battles, McGovern's intentional strategy of running against (and thereby alienating) key Democratic constituencies (Big Labor -- with a reform message that was intended to attract independent and moderate Republcan votes) all combined for an historic loss. Many of the same people (Gary Hart) who argued at that time that youth, independents and moderate Republicans (people George Meany called "$25,000 a year men) would allow the party to put together a "new" coaltion in which the traditional working class Democratic constituency would no longer play an important role are still making that argument today, for Obama.
Maybe their time HAS come. Maybe they are correct that the only thing required to keep women in the fold (in the numbers needed for a Democratic win) is more bullying and fear mongering about Roe v. Wade. Maybe the country really only needs two political parties that serve the interests of the corporations and their "creative class" parasites and hangers on. (Although that doesn't seem to have been doing much good for the majority of middle and working class Americans over the last 30 years.)
Maybe this time the "new coalition" will win.
Go ahead and cast your vote for a Democratic party that doesn't really have any reason for being other than to collect fat checks from the affluent and make sure they get their money's worth in terms of legislation.
I won't.

[ Parent ]
: Here's the thing... it's not about (5.00 / 1) (#215)
by FlaDemFem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:01:04 PM EST

"any Democrat" winning, it's about putting the most qualified person in office. We need a President who can clean up the mess this country is in. We don't need a lot of high falutin' oratory, we need WORK. Guess which candidate has proven they can work long and hard. Hillary Clinton. We deserve the best we can elect, not the prettiest, the shiniest, or the newest, THE BEST. So get off the "any Democrat" meme, "any Democrat" just isn't good enough. Neither is Obama. Sorry.

[ Parent ]
: NOT (none / 0) (#99)
by Capt Howdy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:01:12 AM EST

the state by state numbers.
national polls are less than meaningless.

[ Parent ]
: Excuse me (none / 0) (#110)
by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:04:49 AM EST

That is not me.

[ Parent ]

Kerry was pyhsically impressive (none / 0) (#48)
by Salo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:50:36 AM EST
</

The Creative Class' Condescension Towards Clinton Democrats

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