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Why Hillary is Ahead in the Popular Vote

Michael Barone at Real Clear Politics examines the popular vote totals, including caucus states, and says Hillary Clinton is ahead.

Her 214,000-vote margin in the Keystone State means that she has won the votes, in primaries and caucuses, of 15,112,000 Americans, compared to 14,993,000 for Obama.

If you add in the votes, as estimated by the folks at realclearpolitics.com, in the Iowa, Nevada, Washington and Maine caucuses, where state Democratic parties did not count the number of caucus-attenders, Clinton still has a lead of 12,000 votes.

Barone says even with a loss in North Carolina, Hillary may keep the lead if she does well, as expected in W.Va and Kentucky and Puerto Rico. [More....]

So it's likely that Clinton will be able to argue that undecided super-delegates should heed the will of the people.

Barone presents the Obama campaign's likely response, which he says, likely will prevail with superdelegates:

Their candidate is ahead and will remain ahead in delegates chosen in caucuses and primaries. Michigan, where Obama was not on the ballot, and Florida have been disqualified by the Democratic National Committee for voting too early. Counting popular votes unduly discounts the results from caucuses, in which many fewer people participate than in primaries. And the Democratic Party can't afford to alienate the young and black voters who enthusiastically back Obama.

But, and there's a big but: Barone says Hillary is more electable in November:

Clinton's popular vote lead is one piece of evidence that suggests that Obama will be a weak general election candidate. In national polls, neither Democrat seems stronger than the other: The realclearpolitics.com average of polls as this is written shows Obama leading John McCain 46 percent to 45 percent and Clinton and McCain tied at 46 percent apiece. But they don't run the same in different states.

SurveyUSA's 50-state polls released in March showed that electoral votes would go to different parties in 15 states depending on whether McCain was pitted against Clinton or Obama. And it is electoral votes that determine who will be president.

While Obama will say he'll do better in the West, and he may, it's not enough:

Clinton seems to run stronger than Obama in the industrial (or formerly industrial) belt, running west from New Jersey through Pennsylvania and Ohio to Michigan and Missouri. Obama's weakness among white working-class voters in the primaries here suggests he is poorly positioned to win votes he will need to carry these states in November. This is not a minor problem -- we're talking about 84 electoral votes.

Barone points out his weakness among Latino and Jewish voters and says no candidate can win Florida without Broward or Palm Beach counties, which have high Jewish populations. Here are the maps showing how poorly Obama did in the Florida primary.He didn't only lose those counties, he lost all counties in the state except those on the northern border.

Barone also posits that Obama's weakness among Latino and Jewish voters could put California in play:

Obama's weakness among Latinos and Jews could conceivably put California's 55 electoral votes in play. Los Angeles County delivered an 831,000 vote plurality for John Kerry in 2004. Most of that plurality came from areas with large numbers of Latinos and Jews.

Barone concludes:

Hillary Clinton's current and tenuous popular vote lead may not persuade Democratic super-delegates to reject the candidate who has, after all, won more delegates in primaries and caucuses. But it may prompt some to think hard about Electoral College arithmetic.

For more on the electoral vote matchup, see my earlier post here.

Comments now closed.

< The Electoral Map and the Battleground States | Late Night: Johnny Can't Read >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I've got to think (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by hitchhiker on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:42:04 PM EST
    that the super delegates who have not yet voiced support for either candidate are holding back for a reason.

    They were hoping that the process would lead to a clear favorite, which would relieve them of having to influence the outcome.

    Now it seems that no matter what happens, they will have to influence the outcome and take the heat for whatever choice they make.

    The question is whether the heat will be hotter if they disappoint Barack's young and AA and educated fans -- or Hillary's armies of women and Hispanic and aging and low income loyalists.

    I don't think they can really lean too much on these polls, because we're sooooo far away from November and so many things can change.

    If I were them, I would be BEGGING for a joint ticket.

    Well Joint ticket is the easy part !! (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by TalkRight on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:49:50 PM EST
    If I were them, I would be BEGGING for a joint ticket.

    The million dollar question would be who will be on the top?
    However hard Pelosi may deny it, Joint ticket looks more and more plausible. And the way things are turning up, Obama may eventually agree to be the VP candidate, after all he is young and can run after the Hillary term.

    But the questions his strategists would have is that the more the people see Obama in senate, his clean slate and record would become more and more dirty and the ONLY big thing he had NOW (apart from the urgency of NOW) WAS the clean slate.

    On the other hand if he DOES think that Hillary cannot win, it would be even better for him because then in 2012, he can run and win(than have to cook up a conspiracy theory of Hillary running in 2012)


    [ Parent ]

    Hence the Lincoln-Douglas debate proposal (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by hitchhiker on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:17:54 AM EST
    Well, among other reasons, I mean.  She knows damn well that the 2 of them alone with one another for 90 minutes would make it perfectly clear who should be at the top of the ticket.

    That's also why he had to say no.

    [ Parent ]

    Superdelegates will hold out (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by daryl herbert on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:16:16 AM EST
    They could be holding out for other reasons.  For example, many of them are elected officials running for re-election.  They want campaign cash and other favors from the potential nominees.

    Why give up this incredible piece of leverage for nothing in return?

    Imagine how many SDs must be kicking themselves because they endorsed Obama too early.  Anyone who is left knows to wait.

    [ Parent ]

    Superdelegates can (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by cal1942 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:21:49 AM EST
    uncommit in an instant.

    Nothing is sure with superdelegates until they cast their votes or make some form of commitment as part of a deal.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by OldCoastie on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:48:06 PM EST
    that California is in play if Obama is the nominee... at the very least, he will have to spend much time and resources here to win it in the GE.

    Hillary will have no such battle.

    If Obama is the nominee, (5.00 / 7) (#7)
    by Boston Boomer on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:58:30 PM EST
    Massachusetts will be in play.  That really ought to give these uncommitted superdelegates pause.  I would not be at all surprised if Obama lost the only state that voted for George McGovern in '72.


    [ Parent ]
    Obama Lost MA In The Primaries.... (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:44:54 PM EST
    And that was with the backing of Sens. Kennedy and Kerry, as well as Gov. Patrick.  What does this tell you?

    [ Parent ]
    GE (3.00 / 2) (#53)
    by ItIsOvah on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:51:09 PM EST
    the primary is not the General Election, do you really think that Mass will turn to McCain over the Dem nominee?

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by NOBAMA08 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:57:12 PM EST
    Most of us here aren't Republicans in disguise. There is real anger on both sides but even more among Clinton supporters. If more than 50% of PA voters for Clinton say they will not vote for Obama, anything is possible in the general election. I've also heard from my friends who are Obama supporters that he "doesn't need" OH and FL. HELLLLOOOO? Were they living under a rock in 2000 and 2004? We can't take any state for granted. McCain is seen as a moderate maverick. I would not underestimate his ability to win states like CA where Asians and Hispanics can very well go to McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    In California (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by cal1942 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:03:12 AM EST
    Jewish voters may also vote McCain if Obama is the nominee. The earlier analysis also showed Obama losing serious ground with independents against McCain in California.

    In MI Obama polls 2 points better than McCain but 16% are undecided.  The poll was from April 3rd.

    Far too close to ignore in a state that has been a battleground in the last 2 Presidential elections.  Kerry only won by 3.4%, Gore by 5.12%. And before the Big Dog, 5 straight Republican wins.

    With the economy as bad as it is here it's quite amazing that any Republican can be so close even at this stage. Of course Republicans did campaign here during the primary because the GOP only cut half the state's delegation.  

    The death penalty was the act of imbeciles.

    Spending huge amounts for California's can't win without 55 electoral votes let alone spending money to hold Massachusetts would seriously crimp efforts in battleground states like Michigan and Pennsylvania.

    [ Parent ]

    50% ? (4.00 / 1) (#74)
    by ItIsOvah on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:25:55 AM EST
    The exit polls I've read from PA suggest 25% of Clinton voters would not support Obama. One thing to keep in mind is that PA was a closed primary, so while Clinton's support has been deeper in the Dem voters, Obama's supports has come from a wider group...some independent, some even Republican..that's one reason that he can put more states in play during the General. Pennsylvania, being a closed primary, you can only vote if you are registered Democrat.

    [ Parent ]
    What makes you sure (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:31:29 AM EST
    they will vote for Obama in the General Election?  If you don't have the guarantee of the loyal party members, what makes you sure the Indie and Republicans will vote for you?  that is rolling the dice.  

    [ Parent ]
    They've already (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Just another person on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:09:10 AM EST
    had Gov. Patrick give them almost the same platform as Obama and not deliver. I doubt they'd make the same mistake twice. Obama losing the primary is evidence that they're not really taken by him.

    [ Parent ]
    Mass IS a potential problem (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by djork on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:04:05 AM EST
    I recall a wave of enthusiasm for McCain in 2000 to the extent that one of the liberal columnists at the Globe wrote a column telling Dems to cool off, reminding them of McCain's right wing voting record. I have also heard the chatter in my office of people saying they will vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee. At minimum he would need to expend campaign resources here.

    [ Parent ]
    McCain does very well against BO in MA (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Prabhata on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:16:53 AM EST
    But not as well against HRC. The most recent poll from SUSA 4/17/08 supports it.
    Although it's true that the GE can have a different landscape, November is far away, one has to go with the best information one has at the moment.  The decision should be based on calculated risk, not a gamble.
    http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=d328d259-7c45-49ff-a14e-c14c182cb9c7

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#178)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:53:08 AM EST
    I think it is very likely.

    [ Parent ]
    And NY could become dicey (3.00 / 1) (#10)
    by nycstray on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:04:21 PM EST
    We have quite a few demographics here he doesn't do well with . . . He'll have to work for it.

    [ Parent ]
    Blue to Red? (1.00 / 1) (#36)
    by ItIsOvah on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:37:16 PM EST
    there is no way that CA, NY, and MA will go RED. I can understand the love for Hillary, but this is getting carried away.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh, NY tends to go blue for (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by nycstray on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:46:29 PM EST
    the GE, but it's not really a blue state . . .

    CA does go red in the GE. Obama couldn't beat Hillary in MA with Kerry/Kennedy/etc. They have been down this road with Gov Patrick, ahem.

    McCain is not that scary to older voters, especially since he needs to convince conservatives he is one . . .

    [ Parent ]

    CA and MA Can Go Red (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by NOBAMA08 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:53:17 PM EST
    Just look at the polls. SUSA poll has Obama and McCain tied in MA. Despite endorsements from Kerry, Kennedy, and Patrick he still lost to Clinton. I doubt NY will go red but I think CA can. Depends on whether Obama would be able to win the Asian and Hispanic vote. I definitely think CA is in play for McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    Yup! (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:06:26 AM EST
    I know of five people in my family who are for Clinton and will definitely vote McCain if Clinton is not the nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    You are right. (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:37:26 AM EST

    I don't think that NY would go red.  But CA and MA?  They definitely have a higher population in the outskirts of the large urban areas, enough to make the state bleed red (or maybe just a soft blush).

    [ Parent ]
    patently untrue (1.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ItIsOvah on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:53:24 PM EST

    California, New York and Mass will not go RED, not in this election.

    [ Parent ]
    Let's Agree To Disagree (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by NOBAMA08 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:02:49 AM EST
    You're obviously an Obama supporter so you're not going to accept anything but a winning scenario for your candidate. I don't think Clinton nor Obama can say with confidence that they can win a state they haven't proven they can win in the primaries. Yes, there are solidly blue states like NY but the polls show that there is work to do in MA for Obama. CA wasn't always a blue state but there is no point arguing with you about it until you see the blowback yourself if Obama is the nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    divided we fall (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by ItIsOvah on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:13:56 AM EST
    I'm supporting whoever the Dem nominee is which is what I would expect all Dems to do instead of essentially voting for four more years of Bush with a vote for McCain.

    When one Dem candidate loses to another in a primary it doesn't mean that the loser in that primary can't beat the Republican in November.

    It's ridiculous to think that the strongest blue states would go for McCain because you don't like Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    It's not about what WE like or don't like ... (5.00 / 4) (#99)
    by cymro on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:05:24 AM EST
    It's ridiculous to think that the strongest blue states would go for McCain because you don't like Obama.

    That's not the point. Large numbers of Clinton voters are not inspired by Obama's message of change, because it's not backed up by any solid experience or evidence of expertise at anything except making speeches. Clinton voters, especially older voters, look at him and say "Where's the beef?"

    Clinton is the opposite -- a less inspirational speaker maybe, but demonstrating way more in solid experience and grasp of policy, with concrete plans that people can relate to. If she's not the candidate, large numbers of her primary voters WILL gravitate to McCain (who's already distancing himself from Bush) long before they ever consider voting for Obama.

    In CA, we recalled Gray Davis, our Democratic Governor, because he was seen as ineffective, and elected a more charismatic Republican who ran on a centrist platform. Most of southern CA is heavily Republican, as are most of the rural areas. Any candidate can pick up 40% of the votes from the party faithful, but there are no safe states if a majority of the remaining 20% of voters decide you're not up to the job.


    [ Parent ]

    That's not the reason. (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:36:06 AM EST

    It's ridiculous to think that the strongest blue states would go for McCain because you don't like Obama.

    That is not the reason why we're saying this.  You're not listening to our reasoning at all.  

    Cal was a red state before 1992.  We have a Red Governator whom most of us are pretty pleased with, and he's endorsed McCain.  Conservatives make up a big voting bloc outside of the Bay Area and LA.  And if Obama loses the Latino and Jewish vote, it's over.

    [ Parent ]

    Parts of the B.A. are reddish aren't they? (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:50:51 AM EST
    Farther out towards Walnut Creek and a bit south of there? When I think of the B.A., I think of pockets of both depending where you are. Haven't been out there for a few years, but my parents are still out there and I believe their area is still Republican leaning. They would be McCain over Obama.


    [ Parent ]
    Definitely Walnut Creek... (none / 0) (#157)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:32:15 AM EST
    ...Contra Costa County in general is conservative.  Our lovely landlady lives out in Walnut Creek and we've been out there a few times.  It's mostly rich white conservatives.  You actually don't have to go that far out of San Francisco/Oakland/Berkeley to find the people who would easily vote for McCain if Clinton isn't the nominee.  Here's the BART map that's in all of the BART trains as a guide:

    BART map

    ZOMG, I almost forgot about Lafayette, too.  I had to spend a few days over there when my gf worked a chain store/covered shifts, and it's conservative country there, too.  Rockridge is about the cutoff, according to the map, where you start seeing the conservatives outnumber the lefties (Rockridge is like Berkeley).

    I live in Oakland, which is pretty much Obama central, but we've a lot of blacks (A LOT).  At the Obama Rally that he didn't show up at, it was probably 95% black.  At the Clinton Rally the same day, people of all colors were there, but a lot of the white people from the conservative suburbs like Walnut Creek BARTed their way in just to see her speak.

    I would expect that throughout the state it's like this as well;  I recall watching the results county-by-county of the voting during the primary.  You could definitely see where all of the conservatives were and where Obama lost.  And for all of Obama's wonderful celebrity endorsements, he still lost Los Angeles county by nearly 200K votes, which is what surprised me.

    [ Parent ]

    I lived in the Oakland Hills (none / 0) (#159)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:08:36 AM EST
    one year while in college with a couple other students. They went to Berkeley, me art school in SF. Once you get on the other side of the tunnel, oops, 'nother world! My parents are in Danville, which is where I went to HS. 25 yrs later and I still get odd looks when I'm visiting my parents, lol!~  ;) Not sure how the north end of CC county would vote (Concord, Pleasant Hills etc), but I do remember the area being overall conservative when I was there. I moved out at 18 just to find my comfort zone.

    My dad (Repub) used to tease me after I moved here about living around all 'those bleeding heart liberals'. I got to point out that NY was redder than CA (at the time), lol!~

    It's been YEARS since I rode BART. ah, those were the days . .  fall asleep on BART and ya end up somewhere ya don't want to be!

    [ Parent ]

    Yep, keep dreaming. (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:34:01 AM EST

    Sounds like you're scared when confronted with facts.

    Again, say it with me folks:  Califnornia was a redt state before Bill Clinton turned it blue.

    His wife can keep it blue.  A dude who goes against his wife?  The state has a big chance of blushing back to red.

    Governator Rules!

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, please. Get real here. (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:15:11 AM EST
    You need only to look at Obama's extraordinarily subpar performance in rural and suburban regions of not only the so-called battleground states, but also nominally blue states like California and Massachusetts, to see what Obama's problem is here. He lost two-thirds of the vote in CA's Central Valley and western MA.

    Simply put, Obama has generally proven himself during the primary elections -- not the caucuses, but the elections themselves -- to not be very competitive outside the urban core, with Wisconsin the exception.

    And further, a big chunk of New York state is rural and GOP-leaning. And while we like to think of New York as blue, up until 2006 the GOP controlled the Governor's mansion in Albany, and it still controls that state's legislature.  

    McCain merely needs to keep Obama's urban pluralities to a relatively low roar, let's say 60-40 or little less, and you can see what can happen if he sweeps the boonies by a two-to-one margin or greater.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks Donald (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by NOBAMA08 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:30:15 AM EST
    I agree with you. If you look at some of these "blue" states and important  you will find that Obama only wins the urban vote while Clinton wins everywhere else. That is a problem. While the urban vote is important and helped Obama narrowly in some primaries, winning only the urban vote won't work in the general election. There is a huge risk with Obama. Just go to the NYTimes and look at the regions where Clinton wins in states like MA, MO, CA, PA, TX, OH, MI (yes, I know it doesn't count but just look at it)..those are the states that come to mind at the moment...Obama only wins urban areas and college towns in most of these states. That's a problem whether Obama supporters want to admit it or not. I don't see the point in arguing about what could happen with Obama supporters because they obviously don't want to admit defeat and neither do we. But I think Clinton supporters have the stronger argument that Obama is the riskier candidate.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Has The Same Problem In MO (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by MO Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:57:13 AM EST
    He lost all but the Dem strongholds. Current polls show him losing to McCain 50% to 42%.  Clinton 47% to 46%.

    MO is basically a conservative state with a large bible belt.  Rev. Wright and Ayers will make Obama DOA here in MO.

    [ Parent ]

    realize (1.00 / 2) (#88)
    by ItIsOvah on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:45:18 AM EST
    These states are mostly urban.

    New York state has a population of 19million....10million live in the five boroughs of NYC.

    California has a population of around 35 million, of which 70% is urban.

    Mass is around 6 million and 3 million live in the greater Boston area...add in Worcester, Springfield and more than two thirds live in urban areas.

    He has made up ground with the rural vote when comparing his results from Ohio to Pennsylvania.

    [ Parent ]

    Closer to 8.5 million in NYC (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:55:08 AM EST
    and we elect Republicans here. A lot.

    I'd say more of CA is Suburban, not Urban, big difference. CA suburban born gal here . . .

    [ Parent ]

    No. (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by cal1942 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:17:29 AM EST
    Seven million live in the five boroughs.

    Long Island's suburbs have only recently gone Democratic. A candidate they're sour on can turn that around in a heart beat.

    [ Parent ]

    re: Longuyland and New York State... (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by janarchy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:24:49 AM EST
    yup. And they still tend to vote for Republican presidents in great numbers.

    I've also got ties to upstate New York and I have to say that a lot of my friends/relatives up there are pro-Hillary, anti-Obama and will not vote for him in the GE. Hillary is a well-loved senator and people know what she can do here and they'd rather vote for McCain in the GE if Obama gets the nomination over Hillary, especially in what many of them deem is an unfair fight.

    People think NY can't go Red but they forget how conservative upstate New York is, that we've had both Democratic and Republican governors, etc.

    [ Parent ]

    heh, I forgot about Long Island (none / 0) (#145)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:42:14 AM EST
    I used to do a couple days a week of on site work out there for a client. Was def a republican area.

    My friend from there just moved to another 'hood in Brooklyn which she calls the "reddest 'hood in Brooklyn'. Which fits since she is a Republican (who didn't vote for Bush!) as is all of her upstate family etc.

    There seems to be a lot of 'assumptions' about some of these "blue" states with not too much understanding of the state dynamics.  

    [ Parent ]

    wikipedia (none / 0) (#170)
    by ItIsOvah on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:48:31 AM EST

    great resource on the web. 8.2 million in the five boroughs and another 2 million within 30 miles.

    [ Parent ]
    Worcester and Springfield (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:31:48 AM EST

    "urban"?  Are you out of your mind?  Seriously, I don't think you know what it's like to live in Massachusetts.  I grew up there.  It's conservative, much more so than California (where I live now).  The NE mindset is very, very different from the midset of the West.

    [ Parent ]
    spent 15 years there (2.00 / 1) (#167)
    by ItIsOvah on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:28:46 AM EST
    are you really going to argue that worcester and springfield are not cities? Massachusetts might be the most liberal state in the country, even republicans joke about how liberal the state votes.

    I'm sure there are Yankee fans in Mass too, but I would say that the only red majority in Massachusetts is Red Sox Nation.

    [ Parent ]

    Mass. is unique in this election (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:50:29 AM EST
    because of Patrick, Obama's BFF and another client of Axelrod.  He ran an almost identical campaign to Obama's, and has fumbled badly as governor.  A lot of people in Mass. look at Obama and see Patrick on a national scale and shudder.


    [ Parent ]
    Remember (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by misspeach2008 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:30:20 PM EST
    we voted for Mitt Romney for governor.  We're not as blue as some might think. We've had Bill Weld and Paul Celucci and Jane Swift and a host of Republican governors.  Our vote for George McGovern is the source of our legendary "blueness", but that was 35 years ago.  Massachusetts is in serious play for McCain if Obama is the nominee, and yes, our dissatisfaction with Deval Patrick is a huge factor.  He was definitely "not ready on day one", and we are still waiting to see what "Together we can" do.  The primary here was as much a referendum on Patrick as it was a vote of support for Hillary although it warmed the heart of this proud "Clintonista".

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly. (none / 0) (#197)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:41:35 PM EST

    Mass had Mitt Romney, Weld and all of those other Republicans.  Not as solidly blue as people would like to think, and is put in play if Obama is the nominee.

    We (over here in California) have Arnie, who is really popular (and I think he just signed some sort of gay rights thing, too, so he's seen as moderate).  We have a Red Governator and were red in 1991.  Demographics wise, we do have many, many more Latinos than Massachusetts, but the setup of the state is pretty comparable:  Outside of the "big cities" like SF and LA you've got some pretty strong conservatives, and the Latinos wouldn't be afraid to vote conservative, either.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm going to argue (none / 0) (#196)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:36:12 PM EST

    that they're definitely not cities like Boston and Jamaica Plain, yes.

    You may've spent 15 years there, but I grew up there.  The entire area where I grew up was conservative.  And there are many areas in Massachusetts that are like my town, so sorry, Massachusetts isn't the most liberal state in the country.  That's a myth almost as big as California being the most liberal state (though it's MUCH more liberal than Massachusetts).

    [ Parent ]

    Caucus (none / 0) (#172)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:05:33 AM EST
    versus primary voting is starkly different for Obama, so I agree with you.  But I think what nobody is saying is that his style of campaign doesn't have staying power.  The long primary has shown that.

    He peaked in Wisconsin.  In Philly, huge registration drive but the turn-out of new voters did not come through as expected.  

    He's starting to soften in the upper-class.  My guess is that they heard him on taxes.  He's got a very unattractive plan for that group.

    He's not wedged her union voters away, in spite of months of negative ads and endorsements.

    He's just not holding up.

    [ Parent ]

    Blue can move to red with the wrong candidate (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by Prabhata on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:18:23 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The important point you overlook (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by xspowr on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:21:18 AM EST
    is that demography, primary results, and current polling suggest that these states, even if they do not ultimately go red in the fall, will require Obama to expend far more time and resources than Clinton to keep them blue. Given Obama's already existing disadvantages in the critical battleground states of OH, PA, and FL (which have essentially been determinative in modern presidential contests), Democrats cannot afford a candidate who simultaneously turns CA, NY, and MA into truly contested states that will squander valuable time and finite resources, regardless of whether they will ultimately go blue in the end.

    [ Parent ]
    Does anyone (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:29:26 AM EST

    even know what they're talking about, outside of their stereotypical sheltered views of what California and Massachusetts are?

    They're both pretty conservative.  I grew up in a town that would definitely vote McCain over Obama (in Massachusetts) and I know towns that would follow.  Towns/cities like Jamaica Plain and Boston would probably go for Obama, but not Chelmsford or Tewksbury.  And towns like Chelmsford and Tewksbury outnumber the towns like Jamaica Plain and Boston.

    Same goes for California.  The outlying towns from SF/Oakland/Berkeley and LA are pretty darned conservative.  Walnut Creek?  Ha ha, good luck, Obama.  There were Clinton stickers everywhere, and a few McCain stickers/signs.  How did we end up with a Republican Governator again?

    You have to understand that a lot of the older Latinos and Jews have conservative hearts.  They would have no problem picking McCain over Obama, particularly if they keep believing that Obama isn't conservative enough for them (plus the whole Wright/Farrakhan thing reeeeally doesn't help with the Jews, nor does Obama appeal much to Latinos).

    Again, and I have to keep saying this obviously, but remember that California only turned blue when Bill Clinton turned it blue.  It was a red state before.

    [ Parent ]

    another point is that (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by english teacher on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:43:49 AM EST
    the republican patron saint and hero of obama ronald reagan was elected governor of cali twice, yet to hear obama supporters tell it, there are no republicans in the golden state.  some say obama can win there without even trying.

    [ Parent ]
    When he was elected Gov, my dad said (none / 0) (#150)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:54:42 AM EST
    to me "You just watch, one day he'll be President."  I think we actually had a yard sign. Not common for my parents.

    Really scary that I remember that! OY.

    [ Parent ]

    northern california (1.00 / 1) (#169)
    by ItIsOvah on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:34:42 AM EST
    The point is that these states are overwhelming Democrat. I get the sense that if Hillary is not the nominee then you don't want Obama to win. When you hear someone say the race is becoming divisive, this is what they are talking about.

    Clinton is the most polarizing candidate and it has been shown in many  nationwide polls that at least half the country is vehemently opposed to her in the White House.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know why I try (none / 0) (#199)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:06:31 PM EST

    to even talk to you, since you're not listening to a word we say, especially when you used two Republican Talking Points (RTPs) in your comments (Hillary is polarizing!  It's divisive [to be against us]!).  These RTPs are highly out of fashion now that the U.S. voters have begun to come out of CDS to see what Hillary Clinton is really like (and the big swing states proved that).

    You say Northern California, but you don't make a point as to what you're talking about.  NorCal what?  That I live in NorCal and only pointed to the conservatives in NorCal outside of SF and Berkeley?  Further upthread I already told you how, for all of his celebrity endorsements and that insipid Obama Girl and "Yes We Can" video, Obama LOST Los Angeles County by nearly 200K votes.  All the way up and down the state Obama LOST.  He won -my- county by about 14K votes, but look at how many people voted.  

    CA County Results

    He won SF (where I'm pretty sure Republicans probably voted for him as well...the total number of votes for the candidates combined seems to exceed the total number of registered Democrats), Alameda and then up along the northern coast, Sac and Yolo and San Luis and Santa Barbara and one on the Eastern edge.  But the rest?  Clinton.  In fact, start at San Luis and start tracing down and you'll see the percentage points widen and getting worse and worse until you've got  the high double-digit percentage points where he was creamed.  We have conservatives in this state and that is a fact.  No amount of crying RPTs will change that.

    And one more time:  Popular Red Governor.  Red State in 1991 and before, until Bill turned it blue.  

    [ Parent ]

    Obama (none / 0) (#173)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:07:10 AM EST
    won only 3 counties in CA.  So. Cal. is dominated by Latinos and has a large Jewish population.  In addition, his tax plan is exactly the one that will kill middle-class here.  That won't help at all.

    [ Parent ]
    Ack, no. (none / 0) (#200)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:12:22 PM EST
    Not 3, more like 18.

    See County Map.

    But not BIG counties.  The biggest county (as far as number of votes go) he won was mine, Alameda, but you also have to understand that we have Oakland.

    [ Parent ]

    These SD's (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Mrwirez on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:50:15 PM EST
    Need to grow a pair and pick a winner NOT a whiner.
    If McCain wins there are so many ramifications.
    Hillary '08

    Hillary is the only reasonable choice (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by sas on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:54:57 PM EST
    Obama has too many question marks by himself

    Hillary/Oba,a is a winner.  Otherwise forget it.

    I cannot believe that Michigan and (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by lorelynn on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:00:13 PM EST
    Florida will not be counted if counting their votes gives us a more decisive answer. If counting those two states makes Clinton the clear leader and Obama receives the nomination by the party discounting those votes, Clinton supporters will feel utterly betrayed by the party. I don't like Obama, but it will be the party that betrayed me. And the Democrats will, with good reason, split.

    Right now, it's just tedious. Hopefully, it won't turn into a mess.

    Caucuses should count to total (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by ig on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:01:26 PM EST
    Texas Primary Clinton 50.9%, Obama 47.4%
    Texas Caucuses Clinton 43.7%, Obama 56.2%
    Difference of 16%

    Washington Primary Obama 51.2%, Clinton 45.7%
    Washington Caucuses Obama 68%, Clinton 31%
    Difference of 31.5%


    I meant caucuses shouldnt count to the total (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by ig on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:05:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Funny about those caucuses (5.00 / 4) (#130)
    by janarchy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:11:05 AM EST
    because a close friend of mine is very involved with the WA State caucus and she is/was a Kucinich supporter and she told me about voter intimidation by Obama supporters in her precinct. They took over, they were pushy and pretty much acted like thugs.

    She also told me that there was a mail-in primary that didn't count but most people were not aware of this fact so they thought that was the vote that counted, not the caucus. So they didn't vote again.

    [ Parent ]

    So TX gets to count twice... (4.00 / 1) (#11)
    by kredwyn on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:04:29 PM EST
    in vote counts?

    [ Parent ]
    You seem to be (2.33 / 3) (#54)
    by 1jpb on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:51:42 PM EST
    new, so I (even though I'm quite new myself) get to tell you that ridiculousness (even when it's pro-HRC) is not going to fly here.

    Your WA state analysis is humorous.  Even the most hardcore HRC supporter will acknowledge that the WA primary was meaningless.

    And, I, as a WA, resident who voted in the caucus, but not the primary (because BO already won) will confirm that it is senseless to look at our primary.  I also know more than a dozen folks who didn't go to the caucus, and they didn't vote in the (mostly) mail-in primary because it didn't count, but they would have been for BO, some even have "women for Obama" bumper stickers.  And, I know someone who didn't go to the caucus, but did give a sympathy vote to HRC in the primary, if it counted she would have been for BO.

    And, it is unfair to look at a direct comparison of the popular vote from caucus and primary states, because caucus numbers (if available at all) under represent our state size compared to primaries in other states.  So, some kind of extrapolation must be implemented to add weighting to our caucus participation numbers so that our state's size is fully considered.

    Nice try.

    [ Parent ]

    And if your crazy state caucuses again (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:58:14 PM EST
    in November instead of holding an election, your comment will be useful.  

    [ Parent ]
    I don't see how (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:39:51 AM EST

    bringing up the WA primaries is useless when it clearly, clearly indicates a proven disconnect between caucus results and primary results.  Caucuses aren't representative of the vote of the people at large.  They're a small sampling.

    Like someone else said, when you hold caucuses in the GE, then your comment might be usefull.  But the GE voting will be more like a primary...get used to that idea.

    [ Parent ]

    "I know six people..." (5.00 / 3) (#160)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:27:21 AM EST
    um, pointing to the fact that you know people who would have voted in Washington for Obama isn't what most of us would describe as "rigorous analysis".

    The simple fact is that the WA primary was a far more likely idicator of voter sentiment than the caususes.  One need only look at the results from Texas, and at the GOP primary/caucus totals in WA itself (McCain got 25% in the caucuses, but 50% in the primary, Ron Paul got about 22% in the caucuses, but 7% in the primary) to see how completely unreliable caucuses are as an indicator of voter sentiment.

    [ Parent ]

    Pervasive innumeracy (1.00 / 1) (#182)
    by dmk47 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:15:18 AM EST
    Paul Lukasiak, by cooking up a few relatively simple functions with real number variables arbitrarily inserted, I can generate at least continuum-many --- i.e. uncountably many --- popular vote counts that put Obama ahead; uncountably many that put Clinton ahead; uncountably many that put Gravel ahead.

    Any such manipulation of the data is no less motivated than manipulations putting Clinton ahead. Here's a proof, using the Terry McAuliffe/Michael Barone/Jeralyn Merritt math as an example, but I'd be happy to show why it applies mutatis mutandis to all your spreadsheet work and all that of your co-partisans.

    It's quite simple really. The McAuliffe-Barone-Merritt arithmetic is, if motivated, clearly and flagrantly contradictory. The only non-question-begging motivation for the first step, namely registering popular support for Clinton in Florida and Michigan, prohibits the second and third steps, namely discounting all popular support for Obama in Michigan and discounting all popular support for anyone in four caucus states. The only non-question-begging motivation for the second and third steps, namely heeding the demands of procedural rules and fairness, prohibits the first state.

    All three steps are necessary to yield the Clinton lead. So the McAuliffe-Barone-Merritt arithmetic is either (1) clearly and flagrantly contradictor or else (2) unmotivated.

    If (1), it's actually irrelevant that the result of the procedure is a Clinton lead, since a contradiction logically implies literally anything. Formally, ∀p (⊥⊃p), where p is a variable ranging over propositions. In particular, on the assumption that the McAuliffe-Barone-Merritt math is motivated, it implies that Obama (or Gravel, or me, or you) has the popular vote lead.

    If (2), see above, the McAuliffe-Barone-Merritt licenses any arbitrary transformation of the vote count. Hence it licenses at least continuum-many inconsistent vote counts (i.e. more vote counts showing different leads than there are natural numbers).

    What is background in statistics/advanced mathematics/mathematical logic, if I may ask?

    [ Parent ]

    Lost, and double lost (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by katana on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:30:17 AM EST
    The only non-question-begging motivation for the first step, namely registering popular support for Clinton in Florida and Michigan, prohibits the second and third steps, namely discounting all popular support for Obama in Michigan and discounting all popular support for anyone in four caucus states. The only non-question-begging motivation for the second and third steps, namely heeding the demands of procedural rules and fairness, prohibits the first state.

    I'm new here--is complete incoherence allowed?

    [ Parent ]

    I believe irrelevance isn't allowed (1.00 / 2) (#190)
    by dmk47 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:15:21 PM EST
    A simple semantic truth: "I can't read competently" ≠ "What I read is incoherent."

    Let's take it at "A is for apple" speed.

    The McAuliffe-Barone-Merritt arithmetic showing Hillary Clinton with a popular vote lead involves three steps, all of which are indispensable.

    (1) Count all votes cast Florida for both candidates and count all the votes cast in Michigan for Hillary Clinton towards her vote total.

    (2) Count zero votes cast in Michigan for "uncommitted" towards Barack Obama's total.

    (3) Count zero of the estimated votes cast in four caucus states towards anyone's total.

    Q: What (non-question-begging) principle motivates (1)? A: The principle that, despite procedural issues, votes cast in support of a candidate should be counted in measures of that candidate's popular support. Call this principle PW, for short.

    PW obviously rules out (2) and (3). Does that need really need to be spelled out explicitly? The overall national popular vote has no effect on the Democratic party's selection of a nominee, except insofar as superdelegates, according to a prima facie plausible argument, have an obligation to cast votes in accordance with the national popular vote. In which case they have an obligation to take account of all expressions of popular support, thus ruling out (2) and (3). (Spare me the "we don't know who the Michigan uncommitteds were voting for nonsense." We know more than 120k were for Obama, and that's all that needs to be the case to rule out (2) under PW.)

    Q: What principle motivates (2) and (3)? A: The principle that some expressions of popular support can't be factored into overall popular vote totals, because procedural objections prohibit it. (E.g., despite the fact that Obama's support in the Michigan primary can be measured with enough accuracy to show that it exceeds the 120k margin for Clinton that the McAuliffe-Barone-Merritt math produces, procedurally, we can't just assign uncommitted votes to Obama.) Call that principle RR, for short.

    RR obviously rules out (1). Why? Because on any conception of procedural requirements strong enough to justify (2) and (3) is more than sufficiently strong to require abandoning (1).

    Here's another principle, which we can call CA:   Count the popular vote in such a way that Clinton comes out ahead. CA is blatantly question-begging. If CA is taken as credible, then so is any arbitrary transformation of the primary results I can cook up; and I can cook up uncountably infinitely many transformations with Obama ahead, with Clinton ahead, with Mike Gravel ahead, and with you ahead.

    Is that clear now? Anything else I can help you with? An apology and concession would be in order.

    [ Parent ]

    An Obama fan, for sure (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by katana on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:03:59 PM EST
    A simple semantic truth: "I can't read competently" ≠ "What I read is incoherent.

    Incoherent, and abusive.  Cheers!

    [ Parent ]

    Definitions (1.00 / 1) (#194)
    by dmk47 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:50:34 PM EST
    Please look up 'incoherent' and correct.

    [ Parent ]
    Please look up (none / 0) (#201)
    by BrandingIron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:29:44 PM EST

    your own sentiment with your pedantic pseudointelligentsia about why "Merritt"'s math is off.

    "I can't read competently" ≠ "What I read is incoherent"

    Exactamundo.  You can't competently read p's comment (or any of our comments) about why caucuses "don't count" [sic].

    [ Parent ]

    Obama and DNC had chance to resolve MI/FL (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by Davidson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:06:09 PM EST
    So why should that be used against Clinton?

    Obama is simply not electable.  How can they not take into account what the GOP and media will do to him, a blank canvas with no experience or accomplishment to fall back on?

    Unbelievable.

    Maybe the DNC will throw a nation (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by nycstray on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:09:33 PM EST
    wide Kool Aid party?

    It's gonna take a lot of something to get me to vote for someone I don't trust, don't agree with and don't think would make a good president. And that's not even touching my feelings on his so called 'experience'.

    [ Parent ]

    Unbelievable (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Davidson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:17:03 PM EST
    The caucuses are a joke: they're not only the antithesis of democratic (Voter intimidation anyone?), but most of his caucus delegates come from deeply red states.

    How can they be this suicidal?  Again, all that has to be done to appease Obama's base, blacks and the wealthy, are for Obama to campaign on her behalf.  No matter how hard Clinton campaigns for Obama she can't undo the damage because the problem is with Obama himself (The GOP will make sure to remind everyone of what he's said and done).

    If they fail to nominate the only electable candidate left whose coalition promises us a strong chance to win, they will harm the party for years to come.  Obama is a dream come true for the right wing.  He's got it all: close associations with anti-American nutjobs, a terrorist, and a corrupt political machine.  And let's not forget the radioactive race card Obama employed during the primary that the GOP will salivate over.

    The popular vote count, no matter how small, is the escape hatch out of this disaster in the making.  I pray they won't be so foolish as everyone and their mother tells me they'll be.  I cannot believe this.  God help us.

    [ Parent ]

    Seriously, Why Would MI & FL Vote For Obama? (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:46:55 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Maybe these folks would like him? (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by xspowr on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:18:01 AM EST
    There are some drivers in FL who might need a candidate to speak up for them, and Obama seems like the kind of guy who could understand their problems:

    State Moves to Ban Fake Testicles On Vehicles

    Just kidding! Thought we could use some levity on a Saturday night. :)

    PS: This says it all about Republican legislators in Florida.

    [ Parent ]

    Look (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by sas on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:09:39 PM EST
    Obama cannot win the Democratic base even.  The Democratic base!

    My God, the case is closed.  If the Dems nominate him they deserve to lose big time.

    These people are drinking the Kool aid.

    Unbelieveable.

    Did you ever imagine in your lifetime the Dems might nominate someone who can't even motivate the base of the party - women and working class whites?

    Stupid, stupid, stupid.

    Problem Is That We Lose Too (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:48:37 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Look, I'm no fan of Obama at all, but (4.00 / 1) (#17)
    by MarkL on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:13:45 PM EST
    he is supported by roughly 50% of the Dems.
    I find it interesting that the excruciating near parity we have seen between the two parties  in Presidential elections is mirrored within the party itself this year. Why is it so hard to choose?

    OT, check out JMM's dark and curdled editorializing
    here.

    [ Parent ]

    No, he hasn't (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Davidson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:22:33 PM EST
    Clinton has won the majority of Democrats.  You do realize there are open primaries and Democrat-for-a-day, right?

    [ Parent ]
    BO is not supported by 50 pct of Dems (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Prabhata on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:29:44 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If you took the time... (1.00 / 2) (#23)
    by andreww on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:18:21 PM EST
    to look at the numbers you would see that it has nothing to do with class, gender, or income.  It has to do with age - that's it.  Obama represents the next generation.  Hillary represents the previous/current generation.  His support among women and working class whites is equal to Hillary in voters under the age of 45.  The divide is generational.

    [ Parent ]
    If you kept up with the data (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:39:14 PM EST
    on recent primaries, you'd know that isn't so now.

    [ Parent ]
    Then Why Did Hillary Cut Into The Youth Vote? (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:49:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    and the smart vote ;) (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:34:51 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    to andreww (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Prabhata on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:28:01 AM EST
    you say:
    "Obama represents the next generation."
    If you are correct, and I think you have a point, OB's time has not yet come.  We, those who are old are more numerous, and being that this is a democracy, we get to choose.  Unless you want us to vanish into thin air.  I understand your disdain for old people, but if those who support BO feel that strongly about us not participating in the Democratic Party, I have no problem.  I'll vote for McCain.  He will gladly take my vote. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a wide eyed fool who thinks McCain is some kind of moderate, but at least he will not treat me with disdain.

    [ Parent ]
    OB should be BO (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Prabhata on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:28:37 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hillary's Popular Votes from Sharpton (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Chimster on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:17:43 PM EST
    When Al Sharpton (an Obama supporter) disagrees with a judge's decision, he threatens NYC with some sort of angry response, "This city is going to deal with the blood of Sean Bell." I agree there should be outrage, but starting up another L.A. Riots in NYC would be bad for obvious reasons, but could also be politically devastating for BO.

    I don't know enough about the case, but i do know that race issues like this don't make people feel more united and brotherly. The timing for headline race issues like this couldn't be any worse with the nomination process as close as it is. We'll see if this situation has any impact on Hillary's and Barrack's numbers.

    I'm not too sure what's going to happen (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by nycstray on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:34:16 PM EST
    in the upcoming week, but I'm not feeling good about it.

    He's threatening to shut the city down with civil disobedience. I need to go back and do some reviewing, but iirc, the mayor has been involved since the beginning and was not dismissive about the situation (aka NOT Rudy). And the case is not over yet. I hope like heck this doesn't get out of hand, but . . .

    [ Parent ]

    I see it now (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:44:07 PM EST
    Nevermind.


    [ Parent ]
    OK (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:39:10 PM EST
    What's happening in NY?

    [ Parent ]
    so because of one black mans (1.00 / 2) (#28)
    by pennypacker on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:23:47 PM EST
    actions in New York...this affects Obama. Sharpton hasnt even been supporting Obama and seems jealous of him, but his actions are Obama's fault.
    I dont care if Obama took his name off ballot. Hillary repeatedly said Florida and Michigan wouldnt count...repeatedly, quoted often and directly. You cant give her all her votes in Mich and none to Obama...its ridiculous. Especially when polls show the two of them close if the primary was held again.

    [ Parent ]
    Not one black man's actions (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Chimster on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:31:35 PM EST
    It's not what Sharpton said that affects Obama, it's what could possibly happen if any sort of racial riot makes headlines. I;m not saying it's right and I'm certainly not saying Obama has anything to do with this. I am saying that racial issues like this cut deep and could affect politician's numbers.

    Oh, and i actually agree with your point about Michigan.

    [ Parent ]