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Dean: FL Delegates Will Be Seated

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

So sayeth Howard Dean:

It is our intention to do everything that we can and we believe we'll absolutely seat a delegation from Florida at the convention. That is absolutely in the best interest of all of us.

Guess Florida won't be learning that important lesson about NOT moving up its primary that some Obama supporters insist is important. After all, seating the delegations means the DNC penalties will be lifted. How they will be seated remains a mystery. But get this:

Dean called on Democratic presidential candidates Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton to agree to a solution to the impasse with the delegation.

So who should give in Mr. Chairman? We need revotes. For Florida AND Michigan.

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  • Display: Sort:
    I always thought the table (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by hairspray on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 11:52:02 AM EST
    was fairly level in Florida except for Obama's big national TV buys in Florida. Nevertheless,  let the vote stand where it is. Michigan is a different story.  I would be for a revote there as well, but not allowing those who voted for the Republicans to cross back to vote in the Democratic election.  For no other reason than it is ILLEGAL.

    I don't understand three things: (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:04:34 PM EST
    1. Why is he only mentioning Florida?

    2. Does he mean seat them so their vote has meaning or seat them after the result is a fait accomplii?

    3. Does he mean seat them without penalty?

    All unclear.

    [ Parent ]
    This should do it.. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:33:36 PM EST
    FL allocate as per votes..
    MI allocate Hillary the ones that voted for her. Of the REMAINING allocate 50% to each candidate.

    :)

    [ Parent ]

    That sounds good. When is this going to happen? (none / 0) (#151)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:49:37 PM EST
    What are the obstacles?

    Do they have to get Obama's permission?

    Will this happen before the primary voting is over (ie., will it count??

    Where would it put Hillary in terms of delegates if this flies?

    I still have questions. Sorry.

    [ Parent ]

    How about seating Fl as voted, giving (none / 0) (#172)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 06:34:19 PM EST
    Hillary 50% of the delegates and leaving the others free to vote as they please?

    [ Parent ]
    Why arbitrarily (none / 0) (#174)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 06:56:57 PM EST
    allocate the Uncommitted in that fashion?  As a Clinton supporter I suppose I would be expected to cheer her getting 75% of the total. But, Uncommitted means Uncommitted.

    Select the delegates in the usual manner and let them cast their ballots as they see fit.

    That was the chance that anyone took when voting Uncommitted as I did when I was an Edwards supporter.

    [ Parent ]

    It's all about the unknowns (none / 0) (#178)
    by blogtopus on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 07:29:50 PM EST
    I think that Obama has trouble letting things he can't control, remaining things he can't control.

    Even those uncommitted delegates can still vote for non-obama, so: no dice.

    [ Parent ]

    Seat Florida Without Penality (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by flashman on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 11:54:54 AM EST
    The democrat party didn't have anything to do with Fla. breaking the rules.  The contest there was fair, as both candidates agreed not to campaign there, and both were on the ballot.  Florida voters had access to informaion about the issues and turned out in record numbers.  

    At the end of the day, Obama will still lead the race.  But supporting a valid Florida vote, he will demonstrate his support for the democratic process.

    If all this is true (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:10:19 PM EST
    Why not just seat them now as is?????

    [ Parent ]
    Because hope is not a plan (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:11:52 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Here's a reason (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:26:18 PM EST
    The totals as they stand right now drive a narrative that can impact votes going forward.

    That narrative changes if you change those totals right now.

    Because the process creates hierarchy, FL has already been punished enough as it is.

    Dean is helping Obama to stall.


    [ Parent ]

    Great bumper sticker. (none / 0) (#100)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:44:25 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    That's the stupidest reason of all (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:28:51 PM EST
    If you believe you can win with FL seated as is, (IF that's what you believe, and I have serious doubts you believe that, as evidenced by your answer), but if you actually believe that, AND you care about Floridian voters (if you actually care about Floridian voters) the SOONER you seat them the BETTER your chances are in FL in the General Election.

    That is if you care about winning the General Election.


    [ Parent ]

    Neither can get the numbers required (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:36:45 PM EST
    So, my question is when will Obama accept responsibility for taking his own name off the ballot in Michigan so that we can get on with the real business?

    [ Parent ]
    Never. (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:41:45 PM EST
    IACF (It's Always Clinton's Fault).

    Didn't you get the memo? ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    You do realize (none / 0) (#81)
    by cmugirl on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:20:47 PM EST
    That Obama cannot mathematically get the nomination before the convention either, right?

    [ Parent ]
    Ending this before the voters have their say (none / 0) (#128)
    by reality based on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:09:23 PM EST
    will only exacerbate the situation.  Let all the people vote.  Then count the votes.  The winner of the popular vote should get the SDs barring some extenuating circumstance that will pass muster with the voters. This has become a question of whether the Democratic Party is in fact the UnDemocratic Party.

    [ Parent ]
    Again (none / 0) (#86)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:25:04 PM EST
    So then seat FL now as is.

    What's your problem with that?

    [ Parent ]

    his campaign is relentlessly stupid (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by Kathy on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:30:37 PM EST
    but the saving grace is the media.

    If Obama makes it to the ge, we'll see exactly how stupid his campaign is in full, living technicolor.

    He will never be the legitimate nominee with FL and MI hanging over his head.

    And I have not given up on her chances, because she is a very strong contender and we've many races to go.  

    (though, perhaps some need to be reminded that McCain never publicly called for Huckabee to drop out.  He knew he would win either way.  Obama, not so much.)

    [ Parent ]

    How will seating Florida (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:38:55 PM EST
    put him over the top?

    You do realize the numbers of delegates required for the nomination expands if Florida is seated.

    Situation stands. Neither can get the nomination with pledged delegates.

    [ Parent ]

    Wow. (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:05:26 PM EST
    It must be so nice to be able to predict the future with such certainty.

    Or, just a thought, we could let the people vote and see what happens.

    Why are Obamans so terrified of that possibility?

    [ Parent ]

    And then there's Indiana (none / 0) (#127)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:06:52 PM EST
    etc.

    PA is not likely to run close, and Indiana and Kentucky are Clinton country.

    It may end up with Puerto Rico putting her solidly in the popular vote category. The Obama supporter governor being indicted for corruption certainly didn't help. Their turnout is generally high.

    There are many factors the SDs may take into account when picking a nominee. That could be one.

    All these are factors,and there are many scenarios. There is a certain faith-based factors Obama people use too..... like the idea the SD HAVE to rely on the number of pledged delegates. No, that is not true.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, I love these (none / 0) (#149)
    by Kathy on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:42:36 PM EST
    "If Obama is bad, then Clinton is the anti-Christ" responses!  I so missed them while I was away.  Thank goodness all these new people are here to make it, the old ones having been out-logic'd by BTD.  Our mighty lion has new mice to play with.

    [ Parent ]
    FL can't put him over the top (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Manuel on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:45:16 PM EST
    Seating the delegation changes the number of votes needed and he isn't aheead in FL.

    [ Parent ]
    all you folks will start claiming the results show (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by rilkefan on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:50:44 PM EST
    Ohmigod, the voters might decide the election!  Quick, where's Scalia&Co. to save us from the turmoil?!?

    [ Parent ]
    Technically (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:11:27 PM EST
    The last 2 pollls show Clinton up 9 and down 2.

    the best pollster, SUSA, has Clinton up 12.

    [ Parent ]

    You're both wrong (none / 0) (#136)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:17:20 PM EST
    PPP does show that, but it's an outlyer.

    SurveyUSA shows her up by 12, Ras at 5%, and Qunnipac at 9%.

    RCP average is 6%.

    The pattern this year though is recent surges in polls will show for both candidates, and people will make up their mind on election day.

    [ Parent ]

    Right... (none / 0) (#139)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:21:48 PM EST
    although SUSA was the only one that predicted a Clinton win in NH, so I tend to think their methodology might be a bit more solid.

    However, we won't know till they vote. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Interesting (none / 0) (#11)
    by digdugboy on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:08:03 PM EST
    what a stroke of political mastery that would be.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    Why? (none / 0) (#177)
    by HGillette on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 07:05:28 PM EST
    The democrat party didn't have anything to do with Fla. breaking the rules.  The contest there was fair, as both candidates agreed not to campaign there, and both were on the ballot.  Florida voters had access to informaion about the issues and turned out in record numbers.  

    Which Democratic Party are you talking about? The state or national?

    The National Committee set the penalties for moving a primary up before anyone did so. They were not targeting any state or any candidate.

    The Democrats in the Florida legislature overwhelming voted for the bill containing the movement of the primary date. Only two or three Democrats voted against it.

    Hilary agreed to the rules, just as Obama did. She stated publicly that the votes in Florida and Michigan wouldn't count, at least until she realized that her nomination wasn't the sure thing she originally thought.

    To count the results now, without any penalty would be grossly unfair. It would be as if a teacher gave a pop quiz, saying that the results would not count on your final grade, and then deciding afterward to count it after all.

    [ Parent ]

    Pretty sure there are 2 falsehoods here (none / 0) (#189)
    by Trickster on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 10:36:05 PM EST
    Hilary agreed to the rules, just as Obama did.

    Show me a cite.  I've researched the hell out of this and didn't find a statement from either campaign agreeing or disagreeing with depriving MI & FL of the vote, although I can tell you for sure that both the Obama and Clinton campaigns made non-committal statements on the days that the DNC acted against MI & FL.  

    Certainly neither candidate was involved in making the rules in any way, shape or form.  

    She stated publicly that the votes in Florida and Michigan wouldn't count

    Wrong.  Clinton did make a statement in a radio interview to the effect that the Michigan election wouldn't count, but it was clearly about Michigan only.  It was just as clearly a statement of fact, and not a statement of position, and it was merely a one-time off-the-cuff statement.  It has been blown way out of proportion countless times by Obama adherents; for example, in your post where you attempt to give the impression that it was an idea she approved of until she realized she was stuck in a difficult battle.  There's no evidence at all for that idea.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for the correction (none / 0) (#190)
    by HGillette on Thu Apr 03, 2008 at 01:51:10 AM EST
    Show me a cite.  I've researched the hell out of this and didn't find a statement from either campaign agreeing or disagreeing with depriving MI & FL of the vote

    Statement of the Clinton campaign, September 1, 2007:

    We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process.

    And we believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role.

    Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar.

    Signing the pledge and agreeing to the DNC's rules seems to me to be an implicit agreement to abide by whatever punishment the DNC handed out.

    Wrong.  Clinton did make a statement in a radio interview to the effect that the Michigan election wouldn't count, but it was clearly about Michigan only.  It was just as clearly a statement of fact, and not a statement of position, and it was merely a one-time off-the-cuff statement.

    You are correct that she only said the Michigan primary would not count. However that was the only one she was asked about. It's reasonable to assume that she would have said the same about Florida had she been asked.

    Clinton is not responsible for what she says in "off-the-cuff" statements? She was asked a question, and she said that the Michigan results would not count, so there was no point in taking her name off the ballot.

    It has been blown way out of proportion countless times by Obama adherents; for example, in your post where you attempt to give the impression that it was an idea she approved of until she realized she was stuck in a difficult battle.  There's no evidence at all for that idea.

    Other than the fact that she didn't start saying they should be seated until after the primaries. And I didn't say she approved; I said that she agreed. The time to protest the situation was before the primaries were held; not afterward, when it was clear that doing so would be to her advantage.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for your reply (none / 0) (#191)
    by Trickster on Thu Apr 03, 2008 at 02:18:18 AM EST
    That's informative.  When I get some time, I'll follow up on your September 1 quote to see if I can figure out some more, because I'm very interested in this question.  However, the inference you drew from it -

    Signing the pledge and agreeing to the DNC's rules seems to me to be an implicit agreement to abide by whatever punishment the DNC handed out.

    is a huge stretch.  A general statement of support for the rules is in no way a support for the application of the rules in an individual case.  The Rules Committee had to make an individual decision and take individual action in order to apply the rules to any state.  In fact, even though there were extenuating circumstances for both Florida and Michigan, the DNC actually applied a punishment that was harsher than that called for by the rules Clinton's campaign vaguely expressed support for.  There's just no way you can construe support for that application from Clinton's support for the rule in general.

    It would be just like assuming that, because I approve of the Title VII sexual harassment laws, I automatically approve of the 5th Circuit's ruling in Smith v. Jones.  It just doesn't follow.

    Later you said

    You are correct that she only said the Michigan primary would not count. However that was the only one she was asked about. It's reasonable to assume that she would have said the same about Florida had she been asked.

    No, it's not.  Again, you just can't discuss rules and rules violations on this level of generality where an approval of one thing signifies an approval of something else.  Those are two entirely different cases.  Clinton only said a few words on the subject.  It's not reasonable and it's certainly not fair to read something into those words that she absolutely did not say and then go about claiming that she said the thing you read into them.  Really, it's not even a borderline case, it's just not fair.

    The time to protest the situation was before the primaries were held; not afterward, when it was clear that doing so would be to her advantage.

    Why?  Where's that rule?  My understanding is that the candidates are free to do and say whatever they wish whenever they wish.  And generally speaking, they're a little busy campaigning in the state they're running in right now than to go haring off after issues involving states at some later part of the calendar.

    It sounds like you're saying it's not fair for her to advocate for Florida delegates because she's only doing it because she wants to win.  Well, for one thing, I don't think there's anything particularly scandalous about Clinton wanting to win, nor do I recall her ever denying that she wants to win.  

    Secondly, trying to figure out what she "wants" is a fools' errand.  What does she "want?"  How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    A better question: is the thing she's asking for the right thing to do, or is it the wrong thing to do.

    The second I heard about these states getting stripped, I assumed it would not stand, and I'll tell you exactly what I thought would happen.  I thought the campaigns wouldn't comment on it, because each campaign wanted those states' votes.  And I figured that whoever won those states would start making a noise about it either after they won, or if it looked like they were going to win, right before the election as a good way to drum up support in the state.  

    And I figured that candidate would get his or her way--because it's just right to seat those states.  Adherence to DNC rules is a nice principle to stand for, but as principles go it's really not in the ballpark with the principle of let the people's votes count.  In a democracy, the rules derive their legitimacy only from the consent of the governed.  That's what those folks were on about back in the day, when they dumped all that good tea in Boston Harbor.

    [ Parent ]

    You Make Some Good Points (none / 0) (#193)
    by HGillette on Thu Apr 03, 2008 at 09:42:33 AM EST
    but I still disagree.

    You are correct that she only said the Michigan primary would not count. However that was the only one she was asked about. It's reasonable to assume that she would have said the same about Florida had she been asked.

    No, it's not.  Again, you just can't discuss rules and rules violations on this level of generality where an approval of one thing signifies an approval of something else.  Those are two entirely different cases.  Clinton only said a few words on the subject.  It's not reasonable and it's certainly not fair to read something into those words that she absolutely did not say and then go about claiming that she said the thing you read into them.  Really, it's not even a borderline case, it's just not fair.

    Again, I was wrong to include Florida in her statement. But I don't see how my inference is wrong. Do you really think, that after saying that Michigan wouldn't count, that if she had asked about Florida, she would have said that Florida should count? I can't see that.

    The time to protest the situation was before the primaries were held; not afterward, when it was clear that doing so would be to her advantage.

    Why?  Where's that rule?  My understanding is that the candidates are free to do and say whatever they wish whenever they wish.  And generally speaking, they're a little busy campaigning in the state they're running in right now than to go haring off after issues involving states at some later part of the calendar.

    Of course the candidates can say and do what they wish. But if I can make an analogy without you thinking that I am comparing Hillary to Bush, a lot of the damage that Bush as done to the country is because he's said that the rules (in this case the laws) don't apply to him.

    That's also the reason that the Constitution forbids ex post facto laws.

    In 2000, Al Gore never made the claim that because he got more popular votes nationwide that he should be declared the winner. Why? Because that would be changing the rules in the middle of the contest.

    How did Bush get declared the winner in Florida? Because the Supreme Court changed the rules during the contest. Florida state law had very clear procedures on how to contest an election and what the standard should be for counting (or not counting) problematical ballots. Gore followed those procedures (that was why he only disputed three counties, because that was what the law stipulated) to the letter. The Supreme Court overruled the law.

    I know that DNC rules don't rise to the level of the law or the Constitution. But the rules were set before Florida and Michigan changed the date of their primaries, before it was known what states, if any, would move their primary date, and which candidate it would help or hurt. To the extent that the Republicans were responsible for the date changes, the voters should hold them to account.

    I think the argument that Hillary was too busy to worry about Michigan and Florida doesn't hold water. Someone who aspires to be President should be able to see the big picture. Her apparent plan was to overwhelm the competition on Super Tuesday, and after that didn't happen, she's floundered ever since, changing her message, her tactics, and her strategy.

    I do appreciate your civility, and I hope that I have reciprocated. No matter which candidate wins the nomination, I will vote Democratic. We need to start repairing the damage of the Bush administration, and to me that's much more important than "sending a message" if my candidate doesn't prevail.

    [ Parent ]

    Here are a couple of additional citations (none / 0) (#194)
    by RickTaylor on Thu Apr 03, 2008 at 12:42:17 PM EST
    A pdf copy of the document Hilary signed:

    "Whereas blah blah blah

    THEREFORE, I _____, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge
    I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential
    election primary or caucus  before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa,
    Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by
    rules and regulations of the DNC."

    And an audio  of an interview in which Hillary states of the Michigan primary, "Its clear, this election they are having is not going to count for anything." The passage in question is twenty to twenty minutes into the recording it's worth listening to the whole thing for context.

    I think her agreement not to "participate" in the primaries precludes her from now fighting to have the delegates from those primaries seated as is. How does one gain a victory in a contest one did not "participate" in? But those are the documents and people can make up their own mind.

    [ Parent ]

    One other point (none / 0) (#195)
    by RickTaylor on Thu Apr 03, 2008 at 12:53:37 PM EST
    Regardless of how one interprets the pledge she made, as far as I know she made absolutely no objection to the DNC decision at the time it was made. If I'm mistaken here, I'd appreciate a citation.

    In my view, if she had felt it was wrong, as she says it is now, she should have voiced it well before the disputed primaries were held, when it could have made a difference; she certainly shouldn't have signed a pledge or made statements affirming the DNC's rules and calendar.

    Protesting then could have been a principled position. In my view, protesting now, months after the primaries took place, and after we know what the vote totals are, is attempting to change the rules in the middle of the game.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 11:57:41 AM EST
    This sounds like nothing more than a faith-based statement by Dean.

    Hail Mary, Full of Grace. . . (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 11:59:43 AM EST
    I think Dean's still hoping (perhaps expecting, as I think most close observers are) that one of the candidates will finish with delegate and popular vote leads even including the existing votes, with sufficient super-delegate commitments to ensure that the popular result is also the convention result.

    At that point it doesn't matter who gives in.

    Dean would be wrong (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by americanincanada on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:06:50 PM EST
    a big win in PA, IN, WV, KY, PR and keeping it close in NC will change the game.

    A big win in PA will change the narrative.

    [ Parent ]

    Plus the removal of FL and MI (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Exeter on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:32:20 PM EST
    has caused irrepairable harm to Hillary's campaign and shaped the constant "Tonya Harding" narrative. Imagine if Obama's best early states -- South Carolina, Illinois, Georgia and Virginia --were taken off the table. That's approximately what happened with Hillary when they took MI and FL out.

    [ Parent ]
    Yup. (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:48:10 PM EST
    It's dizzyingly unfair to Clinton and it's not because of the rules...there are rules that would not take FL and MI off the table.

    Seems like some party bigwigs have picked the nominee for us, and they appear to be prepared make any argument they feel like making in order to back up their choice.

    It's political suicide for our Party.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly (none / 0) (#89)
    by nell on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:28:28 PM EST
    For all of Nancy P's moaning that FL and MI cannot possibly pick the nominee because "rules are rules," it seems that excluding these two states may do just that - it may play a vital role in picking the nominee, only it is not a problem for Nancy because it is the nominee she wanted.

    If Florida and Michigan don't play the same role as other states in picking the nominee, the Dems have lost my vote in November.

    [ Parent ]

    I believe (none / 0) (#180)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 07:50:37 PM EST
    what we're seeing is an internal power struggle in the Democratic Party for the keys to the helm.

    Their battle, it appears, has spilled over into the primary. And it looks like the DLC has tentacles into both camps.  The DLC is certainly prevalent in Obama's campaign among staffers and his right-of-center economics team certainly fits, right down to pro-business advisor Austen Goolsbee and Social Security privatizer Jeffrey Liebman.

    I may be missing something but the DLC influence doesn't seem as dominant in Hillary's camp. Some of her proposals are far more progressive than would be expected if DLC influence was strong.

    [ Parent ]

    Florida (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by View from a broad on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:00:39 PM EST
    I live in Florida.  Many democrats I speak to are not plannig to vote.  Howard Dean and his rules took away our voices in Florida.  He needs to understand that there is just as much power in NOT voting as there is in voting.  Yes, a non vote is a de fact vote for McCain -- the DNC understand that perfectly well and they are O.K. with it.

    I must be incredibly dim, please (none / 0) (#44)
    by independent voter on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:30:47 PM EST
    help me understand how you rectify your vote not counting in the primary, by abstaining from voting in the GE.
    So you would disenfranchise yourself, because you feel disenfranchised? Sounds a lot like cutting off your nose to spite your face. And just to clarify, I assume you mean you will not vote in November if OBAMA is the nominee. Does your pique stay intact if Clinton is the nominee?

    [ Parent ]
    For me (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:39:18 PM EST
    I won't vote for either Clinton or Obama in the general.

    It doesn't rectify my lack of a primary vote, but sends the message that my vote belongs to me. It isn't owed to the Dems simply because they aren't Repubs.

    [ Parent ]

    Clinton can only be the nominee (none / 0) (#51)
    by eleanora on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:34:09 PM EST
    if the FL and MI votes count.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't Blame Dean (none / 0) (#179)
    by HGillette on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 07:46:50 PM EST
    I live in Florida.  Many democrats I speak to are not plannig to vote.  Howard Dean and his rules took away our voices in Florida.

    Howard Dean didn't take away your vote. The Florida Legislature did. You weren't responsible for being disenfranchised in the primary. If you choose to disenfranchise yourself in the general election, that's your own fault.

    The rule restricting the dates for primaries was set well before either Florida or Michigan changed the dates of their primaries. The rule was made by a committee, not Howard Dean.

    The states knew that they could be penalized, and chose to ignore the threat. It would be unfair to change rules that were made in a non-partisan way, in the hopes of helping one candidate.

    [ Parent ]

    Dean Doesn't Get Off (none / 0) (#184)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 08:40:40 PM EST
    scot free in any of this. He could have helped to head off the imbecilic death penalty vote but apparently didn't.  I'm wondering if maybe he was a party to the slaughter.

    There were sensible remedies far short of the death penalty in da roolz.

    Six states broke the "rules" but only MI and FL were penalized.

    The GOP legislature in FL and the GOP State Senate and GOP dominated State Supreme Court in MI brought about the advanced dates.  Da roolz actually specify that penalities can be put aside if the state party can prove no ill intent.

    The party is supposed to have a hearing to make this kind of decision (dems da roolz)but failed to do so.

    So da roolz weren't followed by the DNC.

    So I have to ask just where the hell was Howard Dean while all of this was going on?


    [ Parent ]

    Michigan Revote (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by expertlaw on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:02:39 PM EST
    I think a Michigan revote (even if he loses) is more important for Obama than he realizes. Michigan is a conservative state, even if it tends toward Democratic presidential candidates. And its brand of conservativism is of a type that works in favor of a candidate like John McCain. Obama needs to convince Michigan's substantial political "center" (it's center-right) that might otherwise float between McCain and Clinton that he, also, is deserving of their votes.

    Looks like (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by oldpro on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:24:13 PM EST
    Obama has given up on Michigan for the general... cedes it to the Rs.

    [ Parent ]
    Proposal by Rep. Stupak of MI: (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:30:17 PM EST
    Rep. Bart Stupak of Michigan congressman proposed Monday in a letter to Dean that the state's delegates be awarded based partly on Michigan's primary results and partly on the popular vote in all the nation's presidential primaries.

    Stupak endorsed former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards in the primary and has remained neutral since Edwards dropped out of the race in January.

     {AP]


    [ Parent ]
    Stupak (none / 0) (#99)
    by cmugirl on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:43:24 PM EST
    Doesn't get a vote. All the Michigan and Florida superdelegates won't be seated either (unless the suit by a Florida SD is successful, based on the reading of the DNC charter which states that SD's shall be seated at the convention....)

    [ Parent ]
    Conservative? (none / 0) (#185)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:55:58 PM EST
    I'm a lifelong Michigan resident and I challenge that assertion.

    A bit off topic maybe but my home's honor is challenged and it is related to the general political climate as it applies to this thread.

    First: in my lifetime 5 Democrats and 5 Republicans have served as governor.  Two of the Republicans were possibly as liberal as any Democrat either opposed.  (That's when there were liberal Republicans a Looong time ago)Ideologically that makes it 7 to 3.  Republican presidential candidates carried the state 8 times, Democrats 8 times, the last 4 in a row. There've been 5 Reublican Senators and 7 Democrats.  Democrats serving more years by a wide margin.  Until Republicans gerrymandered congressional districts in 2001, Democrats had a majority of the state's US House seats. Democrats owned the elected Attorney Genral's position for 42 of the last 47 years and the Secretary of State position for 23 of the last 37 years. The nation's first consumer protection division and first environmental protection division long before Ralph Nader and the Environmental movement. Michigan is not right-of-center.

    Like many other industrial states Michigan has pockets of political ideology in several areas.

    If Obama is nominated without legitimately including the Michigan delegation: The 1st Congressional district that Stupak (D) represents will go overwhelmingly McCain. The western lower peninsula, traditionally GOP, but becoming steadily more Democratic in recent years will revert to form and go heavily for McCain.  The north and probably west Detroit suburbs will go heavily McCain. Wayne county will do as always but may get a heavier than normal turnout.

    If Michigan's delegation is excluded from legitimate participation, McCain could win the state.

    [ Parent ]

    I think that Dean is simply saying that (5.00 / 11) (#12)
    by litigatormom on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:09:31 PM EST
    FLA will be allowed to vote as soon as Clinton drops out or it is otherwise determined that, with FLA and MI excluded, she cannot get enough superdelegate votes to win the nomination.  In other words, FLA will be seated only after it has been determined that FLA can have no impact on the result.

    Because it is in "everyone's interest" for the DNC to be able pretend that it is not disenfranchising Florida voters, while not actually enfranchising Florida voters.

    Sadly (none / 0) (#17)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:15:01 PM EST
    I think you're right.

    Dean wants to give the appearance of enfranchising the voters while not enfranchising the voters. Might work on some, but all the press that they continue to generate by going over and over the issue ensures that it will not work on all.

    [ Parent ]

    I just feel like (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by Kathy on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:27:40 PM EST
     a huge win in PA and a couple of other states will have their heads spinning.  If anything, I want her to win big for that one reason.

    It defies logic that they are doing their level best to tear down Clinton.  Can you imagine how unstoppable she would be right now if the DNC had gotten behind her rather than putting up a straw candidate to take her down?  McCain would be irrelevant and we'd all be waiting for Jan to roll around so the dems could take back the White House.

    Why, oh why, do we consistently refuse to back the winners who will roll up their sleeves and fight in favor of the elites who wouldn't know how to govern if Jesus Christ Himself was pulling their strings?  I am sick and tired of the New England elite stranglehold on my party.  They are so out of touch with their core that I fear even a SECOND resounding loss will not teach them.


    [ Parent ]

    It might work (4.50 / 4) (#47)
    by litigatormom on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:32:03 PM EST
    The MSM continues to bleat about THE ROOLz more than it acknowledges the disenfranchisement of Florida voters.  Even when they talk about seating the delegates, no one ever presses about whether the delegates will be seated only after they no longer matter.

    Worst of all, a lot of the MSM -- including most especially MSNBC -- frames the issue entirely in terms of "when will Hillary get out."  As if her continuing presence in the race is forcing the DNC to continue the disenfranchisement.

    Howard Dean is an ass. I can't understand how Dean got as far as he did in 2004.

    [ Parent ]

    In 2004, Dean got as far as (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by ecoast on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:18:50 PM EST
    Iowa.

    [ Parent ]
    x (none / 0) (#143)
    by cmugirl on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:28:24 PM EST
    Yeah - I don't understand that.  Isn't it good for the MSM to have the "horse race"?  Then they can bloviate for hours. If she gets out now, won't they have to do their job and actually start doing things, like looking at Obama's record and stuff?  Tweety and Olbermann will literally cry through their broadcasts....

    [ Parent ]
    No Rules? (none / 0) (#183)
    by HGillette on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 08:18:47 PM EST
    The MSM continues to bleat about THE ROOLz more than it acknowledges the disenfranchisement of Florida voters.

    How are you going to know who the nominee is without rules? In any contest, whether it be a presidential nomination or a game of "Chutes and Ladders", there have to be rules that are followed, or you don't have a legitimate winner.

    Again, the rules were set before Florida (or Michigan) changed the date of its primary, so they were not set to help or hinder any particular candidate. Which is fairer: to follow the rules that were set before the campaign, or to change them in the middle in an attempt to help a particular candidate?

    If you see a sign that says: "U.S. Government facility. Authorized personnel only. Violators are subject to lethal force.", ignore it, and get shot, who's at fault? The government, who warned you of the consequences, or you, for thinking the rules didn't apply to you?

    [ Parent ]

    Aright, I've been defending Dean until now, but, (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by RickTaylor on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:17:48 PM EST
    calling on Obama and Hillary to agree on something is ridiculous. The DNC should determine what's fair and in accordance with the rules and carry it out and take their lumps. It's like a judge saying he'll only make a ruling if the prosecutor and the defendant agree on the outcome. Hillary and Obama's are both in it  to win, not to make judgments on how delegates should be determined and seated. While it might be nice if they both put principle above all other considerations including their own campaign's fortune, the DNC certainly shouldn't be depending on them to do so.

    That's been ridiculous all along. (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by eleanora on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:27:59 PM EST
    I don't much like Obama and the others pulling their names off the MI ballot--saying "I want everyone to vote for me, just not you guys" is bad manners and poor long-term politics, no matter how much it helps you in the short term.

    But Obama is a candidate and is supposed to try to limit the bad consequences of his actions and maximize the positive. It's not his job to ensure a fair solution to this mess, it's Howard Dean's job to look out for the Democratic voters and the Democratic Party. Leaving it up to the candidates themselves to try to solve it and/or trying to game it so one candidate gains an advantage over the other is shirking his duty. I'm ashamed that I supported him for chair.

    [ Parent ]

    From the beginning (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by badger on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:31:23 PM EST
    this has been about the primary calendar, the will of the DNC, and now the candidates - about everything except the voters.

    [ Parent ]
    But it's not up to the DNC (none / 0) (#28)
    by Trickster on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:23:39 PM EST
    The final decision will be made by the convention delegates on the floor.  Obama and Clinton are the only people who can exercise effective control over the delegates.

    Dean's not a judge; he doesn't have that power.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with you, (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by RickTaylor on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:35:05 PM EST
    and that's the position Dean has taken until now, and I've defended him (and he's gotten a tremendous amount of flack for it). I'm criticizing him now specifically for calling for Hillary and Obama to craft a solution; that's not their roll.

    I don't think it's up to the DNC or the candidates to craft a solution; it's up to the states. Or at least that's how it ought to be. Neither Obama nor Hillary ought to be able to "veto" any proposed revote either state comes up with, and the DNC's only roll should be to ensure such a revote is fair and accords with the party rules.

    [ Parent ]

    It's not a question of whether he's a judge (5.00 / 7) (#56)
    by litigatormom on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:39:04 PM EST
    It's a question of him being a leader. He's the frakkin' chairman of the Democratic National Committee. He's being entirely passive about an issue that potentially threatens the ability of the Democratic nominee, whoever that is, to be successful in the fall, leaving the resolution up to the two people who can't be expected to agree.

    There are only two reasons for Dean to do this, and neither of them are good reasons: (1) ego ("I am the boss of you, Florida and Michigan"); and/or (2) favoritism towards Obama/animus towards Clinton.  Assuming that Dean does indeed want Obama to win, if Dean were smart, he would convince Obama that it is in his own interest for FLA and MI to have a meaningful voice in the process, and that the longer Obama acts like he's afraid of FLA and MI voters, the weaker he becomes.  

    But I don't think Dean is that smart.

    [ Parent ]

    I'd agree with that. (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by RickTaylor on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:47:19 PM EST
    He has been too passive. Even if there isn't much formally he could do, he could certainly at the minimum give louder voice to the calls for Florida and Michigan to work out an an alternative before the convention. Obama could as well, and I've defended him otherwise for the most part.

    [ Parent ]
    Dean (none / 0) (#88)
    by FlatusTheElder on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:27:56 PM EST
    The problem with the Dean's not a judge thesis is that Dean caused the problem and is now asking the candidates to fix it. Neither candidate can solve the problem to the satisfaction of his/her opponent. Anything other than a Clinton win and seating the delegates as is is unsatisfactory to the voters and should be unsatisfactory to Democrats.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes to this part: (none / 0) (#91)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:33:29 PM EST
    The problem with the Dean's not a judge thesis is that Dean caused the problem and is now asking the candidates to fix it.

    That's 100% on the money. He did not have to allow the Republican legislatures to have this power over the Democratic primary process. He did not have to pick and choose which rules to follow in this manner.

    And to think I was a Deaniac!

    [hangs head in shame]

    [ Parent ]

    Judges Do That (none / 0) (#181)
    by HGillette on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 08:00:17 PM EST
    It's like a judge saying he'll only make a ruling if the prosecutor and the defendant agree on the outcome.

    Judges have been known to tell the two sides to work out an agreement (or plea bargain) instead of going to trial.

    If Hillary and Obama cannot come to an agreement, the National Committee or the credentials committee at the convention will probably make the decision. Hillary will be better off coming to some agreement, since neither will give the two states full representation based on the invalid primaries.

    [ Parent ]

    I live in Florida... (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by kc on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:22:17 PM EST
    and most of us believed that our vote would ultimately count. Suicidal if it didn't. So, we voted in good faith.

    My question now is-when will the Obama charm 'the old ladies' offensive begin?

    Ha! Is the Kool-aid truck (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:27:14 PM EST
    coming to Florida?  Can't wait for my sip.  Ah, sweet, sweet Kool-aid!!

    [ Parent ]
    Well, this old lady is not going to be (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 03:01:52 PM EST
    charmed.

    [ Parent ]
    What did he say? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by reality based on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:23:54 PM EST
    Does this mean we can now include the Florida popular votes and delegate totals on our scorecards?
    Nevermind.

    He must have missed my checks. (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:27:18 PM EST
    And a few others I am sure. I feel sorry for the person who cheerfully calls me. The one guy said, "All right, all right, I hear you". I was not being rude, just you are not getting a cent until you straighten up the Florida Michigan mess.

    Yep. I have been emailing.... (none / 0) (#176)
    by Aqua Blue on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 07:03:08 PM EST
    every high powered Dem...saying just that.

    For years I have voted a straight Democratic Ticket in every election.  I have donated money to Democrats across the nation and given time to Democratic candidates going door-to-door to get out the vote and phone-banking.  

    I want the Florida and Michigan votes are counted (fully) as stands.  I am unbelievably angry that voters are disenfranchised by the Democratic Party.

    The DNC has work to do if they want my money, time, and votes again.

    Reverse the stupid decision to penalize early voting.   Shame on The Democratic Party and shame on Barrack Obama for stopping the new vote in Michigan.  

    [ Parent ]

    Voters (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:28:28 PM EST
    Naked Politics
    "Most of those critics are people who have a particularly partisan angle to play," he [Dean] said. "They want Michigan and Florida seated, as voted, because that would benefit their particular candidate. They don't want them seated because that would benefit their particular candidate. My job is to enforce the rules equally and fairly so that both candidates are treated fairly and that's what I intend to do...

    Problem with Dean is he continues to fail to recognize that it is even more important to be fair to the voters.

    Unfortunately (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:33:20 PM EST
    This isn't a war where the vicorious gets to write the history, this is an election where everyone will have a historical perspective.

    And history will show that every single one of Dean's decisions (or non-decisions) helped Obama, and none of his decisions (or non-decisions) helped Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    We don't need to wait for history (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by litigatormom on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:45:08 PM EST
    to see that. Dean has clearly had his thumb on the scales all along. He just refuses to see that he's actually harming his favored candidate by denying him the legitimacy he needs in the general.

    [ Parent ]
    He said superdels are free agents (none / 0) (#62)
    by bumblebums on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:46:29 PM EST
    who needn't defer to any metric.

    "They should use whatever yardstick they want," Dean said in an interview at party headquarters. "That's what the rules provide for."

    LA Times

    [ Parent ]

    Of Course (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:48:10 PM EST
    That's what he says.


    [ Parent ]
    What, he should tattoo it on his forehead? (none / 0) (#68)
    by bumblebums on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:52:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    He can (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:54:53 PM EST
    It wouldn't change anything.


    [ Parent ]
    Pathetic. (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by oldpro on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:31:20 PM EST
    Howard should stay off television.

    Or resign.

    Dean: Gross Leadership Failure (5.00 / 6) (#54)
    by Exeter on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:37:32 PM EST
    Basically he has empowered the Florida GOP to dictate whether Florida will participate in choosing the Democratic nominee. Now, he's trying to throw the hot potato into the laps of Obama and Clinton. He created the problem, now HE needs to fix it.  

    Political malpractice (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by reality based on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:40:02 PM EST
    If Dr. Dean practiced medicine with the same care as he does politics, no insurer would have touched him.

    Snippet from Nagourney piece on Dean: (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:59:25 PM EST
    Still, senior officials in both campaigns said they had heard rarely from Mr. Dean on matters like the tone of the contest and how it might be concluded and what to do about the Michigan and Florida delegates, the subject of a bitter and potentially debilitating debate between the Clinton and Obama campaigns.

    The chairman of the Florida Democratic Party, Karen Thurman, said she could not recall the last time Mr. Dean had called her to try work out the dispute. She and other Florida Democrats are to meet with Mr. Dean on Wednesday to try to persuade him to agree to a compromise.

     [NYT; italics added.]

    more proof (none / 0) (#74)
    by bjorn on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    that Dean is incompetent!

    [ Parent ]
    Oh Jeebus... (none / 0) (#75)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:08:49 PM EST
    are you kidding me?!

    IF that's true (Nagourney is not the most reliable source), it's worse and worse. We have always been the party that governs better, but we're sure not doing a good job of governing ourselves!

    [ Parent ]

    Do you have a link? (none / 0) (#153)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 03:03:55 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Nagourney NYTimes Link (none / 0) (#173)
    by jen on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 06:52:46 PM EST
    Democrats' Turmoil Tests Party's Low-Key Leader

    Reminder: Nagourney has no problem spinning things to fit his opinion...

    [ Parent ]

    Prediction: once Obama campaign's (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:51:16 PM EST
    internal polling suggests FL and/or MI likely Dem. voters will not vote for Obama if there votes aren't counted in the primaries, Obama will favor revoting.  

    How cynical of you! (none / 0) (#112)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:55:16 PM EST
    Why, that almost suggests that Obama will Do Anything To Win!!!!1111!!!!

    Where are my pearls and fainting couch? ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    He should have learned that before now ... (none / 0) (#131)
    by cymro on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:12:41 PM EST
    ... considering the well-documented anger of the voters in those states at being disenfranchised.

    [ Parent ]
    But, the polls indicate about 25% (none / 0) (#138)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:19:51 PM EST
    are concerned about their primary votes not counting.  

    [ Parent ]
    So Obama really (none / 0) (#147)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:38:15 PM EST
    doesn't care about the voters.

    Occam's razor.

    All the more reason for Dr. Dean to step in and make a decision that honors the voters of FL and MI.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama's corrupt greed (1.00 / 2) (#71)
    by chopper on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:58:40 PM EST
    I don't see how there will be an agreement between Hillary and Obama.

    I hope Hillary doesn't give in - she shouldn't.  She won all those FL votes and delegates fair and square.  Obama spent $1.3 Million on ads, she didn't.  She won with a handicap and deserves every vote and every FULL delegate.

    I don't think Obama will change his tactics.  He will do anything to win. He stole TX delegates away from Hillary with his corrupt caucuses.  She won the primary fair and square, then he has his people going to caucuses with threats, fraud, and breaking every rule in the book. He blocked the re-votes in FL and MI. Now, he won't agree to anything unless she GIVES him some of HER delegates.  That is wrong, undemocratic, and un-American.

    Uh (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:01:22 PM EST
    You are more than a little over the top here.  I'm not sure you're even for real.

    [ Parent ]
    Center for Responsive Politics (none / 0) (#101)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:46:00 PM EST
    says otherwise.

    Yes, Obama spent $1.3 million. That, BTW, is $500K more than any other candidate.

    A poster from FLA told me on another board she was mainly ticked that the media didn't cover it, especially since the ads run by his proxies were so negative.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, he's running push polls here in NC. My (none / 0) (#154)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 03:06:30 PM EST
    husband, who was torn between Hillary and Obama, is now for Hillary because he answered the phone.

    [ Parent ]
    Good a reason as any (none / 0) (#159)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 03:55:58 PM EST
    I suppose.

    [ Parent ]
    I realize now that my comment left a lot (none / 0) (#164)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 04:24:07 PM EST
    of questions open and sounds a bit absurd. Sorry.

    My husband picked up the phone instead of me and it turned out to be a pushpoll. He had been torn between Hillary and Obama.   The fellow asked him if he'd be willing to be po