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Post-PA Debate Thread: I

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:52:37 PM EST
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How did Hillary and Obama do in tonight's debate? Did Hillary make the strong showing she needed? Did Obama gain support or fumble?

What was each candidate's strongest topic? Where did they score and where did they go flat or fall down?

How is the media reaction?

Update: Comments now closed.

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    Post-PA Debate Thread: I | 245 comments (245 topical)
    Hilary nailed it (5.00 / 15) (#1)
    by Saul on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:53:18 PM EST
    Overall Hilary looked and sounded more presidential.  She was in command of the facts and in control. I don't think she could have done better than she did.

    KO et all doing the damage control now! (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:19:40 PM EST
    and kos et all furious and bitter..

    [ Parent ]
    If they are mad (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by waldenpond on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:20:44 PM EST
    over at Kos, I guess we know who did best.....

    [ Parent ]
    It's the same (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by facta non verba on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:37:21 PM EST
    over on Talking Points Obama. Here's Josh Marshall:

    9:46 PM ... No Charlie. It hasn't been a "fascinating debate." It's been genuinely awful.

    On the Huff Obama:

    The Headline is Clinton Emphatic that Obama Can Win in November.

    Talk about out of touch.

    [ Parent ]

    There Is a Poll (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by AmyinSC on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:43:10 PM EST
    At abcnews.go.com abt who won the debate.  You have to look at the small print. It's in the "More Political Coverage," the second one down.  Apparently, ABC is getting hammered by Obama people who are mad that Obama was actually asked a couple of hard questions.

    So, go vote - right now, Obama is leading in the count, and we know he didn't win it!

    [ Parent ]

    It is an unscientific poll (none / 0) (#190)
    by facta non verba on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:51:05 PM EST
    worthless. Let Obama win it. We will win Tuesday in he only poll that matters. 15% is my guess.

    [ Parent ]
    you're right! (none / 0) (#221)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:31:14 PM EST
    the obama people are hammering with the help of ABC's blog which keeps moving it and when you finally see it, it takes you to "could not find link". My friend is trying to vote too, but the sight is not allowing her to do so. We both agree she won handily.
    They're spinning it though, with other news about how much toast she is. SAD!

    [ Parent ]
    Gergen says it's the statement of the night (5.00 / 2) (#211)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:14:16 PM EST
    that Clinton said he's electable, when she's telling super-d's that he's not -- and that it will come back at her every time she says it to them, on the campaign trail, etc.

    I do believe I heard Obama say she was electable, too, but apparently that will hit the teflon armor and just slide off when he talks to super-d's. . . .

    [ Parent ]

    Closing thoughts (5.00 / 11) (#2)
    by katiebird on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:53:22 PM EST
    Hillary directly asked the people of Pennsylvania for their votes.

    But, Obama didn't -- he never asked.

    Could be a very serious mistake. People don't vote for you if you don't ask.

    He didn't say anything (5.00 / 8) (#11)
    by dianem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:55:22 PM EST
    She talked about how she wanted to change the nation, providing specifics. He didn't make any sense in his closing remarks. Where is this legendary speaking skill? I've heard he is a bad debater, but this is the first debate I've actually watched. Is this unusual for him? She seemed to be completely in control of every question.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't know (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by katiebird on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:37 PM EST
    I've never been impressed with his speaking skills.  But, he seemed especially off-balance tonight.

    I was surprised on the closing remarks thing, because he followed her (didn't he?) and it sounded so great when she said she couldn't do it alone, she needed the people of Pennsylvania.

    [ Parent ]

    Pretty standard fair from him, debatewise (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Just another person on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:58 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    you think this was bad (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by angie on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:59:46 PM EST
    he has improved by leaps and bounds! I can't believe he is still in the race after his past performances.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:11 PM EST
    never asks the people for their votes.  Hillary is much more humble and says that she's asking us to hire her for the most important job in the world.  IMO, Obama is all about himself.  

    [ Parent ]
    Just wonder if BTD still thinks that the media (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by athyrio on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:53:50 PM EST
    darling status will hold up?

    They both lost..... (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by aequitas on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:53:53 PM EST
    ....for not walking out after the first 50 minutes.  

    If only this was the first not the last debate (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:53:55 PM EST
    Obama would have been a history.

    Why? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:01:15 PM EST
    This is how I thought he was in all the early debates.  He has only been better in the last two.  People don't seem to be voting so much on debate performances.


    [ Parent ]
    its the question that have changed (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:06:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    KO is furious !! (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:02:15 PM EST
    I can smell fire under his pants!!

    [ Parent ]
    The Obama network (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:04:08 PM EST
    is nothing if not predictable.

    [ Parent ]
    KO looks the one who is bitter !! (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:04:11 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Tell KO to sit on his flakjacket (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:15:51 PM EST
    like Hillary did, as this was only sniper fire.

    Wait 'til the GOP drops bombs on Obama, if he's the nominee.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with BTD (5.00 / 6) (#6)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:54:10 PM EST
    that the second half of the debate was far better.

    Overall, I think this went better for Hillary, but we'll find out what the people of PA thought (or if they even cared) on tuesday.

    what the heck?? (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:54:49 PM EST
    as i tried to read the live thread it made this crazy clicking sound and would scroll automatically to the bottom?  sorry if off-topic but that was crazy!  i couldn't read the posts coherently.

    btw, sounds like HRC knocked it out of the park.

    Where are you going for reaction? (none / 0) (#10)
    by katiebird on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:55:19 PM EST
    ??

    [ Parent ]
    It scrollls back to the bottom (none / 0) (#18)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:57:30 PM EST
    every time one of the bloggers adds a comment.  Drives me crazy too. I find if I keep the mouse button pressed firmly on the scroll bar, I can keep it from doing that and it just jerks a little every time they post.

    [ Parent ]
    It does the same thing to me and did in the (none / 0) (#36)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:00:41 PM EST
    last debates also.  I have to keep scrolling up and starting over trying to read the comments and the crazed click comes on and presto bingo you're back to the bottom. It's very annoying. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I thought maybe I wasn't doing something right.

    [ Parent ]
    FireFox (none / 0) (#50)
    by Josmt on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:03:34 PM EST
    If you use FireFox with NoScript Plugin you don't have that problem.  I don't like EI much for some of these reasons

    [ Parent ]
    This is the first I've heard (none / 0) (#167)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:36:14 PM EST
    anyone having problems with it.Was it just the two of you or did others have the same problem?

    [ Parent ]
    I've had that problem (none / 0) (#175)
    by Just another person on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:42:26 PM EST
    but I'm mostly in step with the bloggers so it doesn't bother me that much

    [ Parent ]
    LiveBlog skips (none / 0) (#187)
    by caseyOR on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:48:43 PM EST
    for me, too. I'm using Safari on a MAC. Could that be a problem?

    [ Parent ]
    I've uploaded (none / 0) (#206)
    by standingup on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:09:59 PM EST
    a screen shot of the demo of "Cover It Live."  There is a blue button with arrows in the bottom right hand portion of the screen that I have circled in red.  If you can see it during the next live blog, click on the button to stop the scrolling.  When scrolling is toggled off, there will be a red "x" over the button.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Same prob (none / 0) (#241)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:28:18 PM EST
    I think it's supposed to be a feature, not a bug. :-)

    Maybe it'd be good to have some consistent instruction when you start one about using the blue button.  I never noticed it, but I'll look for it in future.

    [ Parent ]

    There is a way to stop the scrolling (none / 0) (#41)
    by standingup on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:01:52 PM EST
    The next time, look for the button at the bottom right of center, and click to toggle the scrolling on or off.

    [ Parent ]
    Jeralyn, could this tip be up on top (none / 0) (#71)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:08:22 PM EST
    every time you used the blogging gizmo?  I love this tip -- as frankly, I have gotten so goofed by that scroll-to-the-bottom thing every time you or BTD make a comment that I gave up . . . and tonight, I waited until you two were all done to read your comments.  This would solve that problem, and then I could cast my ballot in your ongoing polls. :-)

    Because I can wait to read your take on debates, but when you do the Oscars again, I cannot wait even a nanosecond to see what you think of the dresses -- and for your photos of them.  That was a great live blog, with moments such as finding out that BTD had seen the kid flicks!

    [ Parent ]

    ok I'll do that (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:37:22 PM EST
    next time

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't think his last speech was very good. I (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:54:59 PM EST
    noted that the meter didn't seem to think so either. Hillary did much better on hers (plus she is clearer and uses inflection and doesn't go on and on in a monotone). But that's just me. I'm interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.

    where are you going for the meter? (none / 0) (#228)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:47:36 PM EST
    and are they still showing it?

    [ Parent ]
    Ha Ha. Olbermann is now bashing Stephanapolis... (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:55:06 PM EST
    He looks furious.

    Now he's upset? pffft (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:56:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hee! (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:56:14 PM EST
    I can't stand to watch Olbermann, but that makes me ridiculously happy.  

    [ Parent ]
    He always looks furious (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:57:38 PM EST
    That's his schtick.

    [ Parent ]
    it's the eyebrows (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Klio on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:59:14 PM EST
    they're so censorious

    [ Parent ]
    Obittermann n/t (5.00 / 6) (#113)
    by standingup on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:16:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If Hillary wins the nomination I would not (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:57:57 PM EST
    be surprised of O'Reilly and Olbermann co-host a show---their views will be perfectly in sync then.

    [ Parent ]
    about time Obama & his supporters (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by angie on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:02:39 PM EST
    found out what it was like, imo.

    [ Parent ]
    Thankfully I missed the first 30 minutes... (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by reynwrap582 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:55:24 PM EST
    But this was the weakest showing I can remember seeing from him in a debate.  Watching the debate with the real time response from the undecideds was interesting as well.  He consistently got around 70% when he was talking but rarely got anything substantially better than that...  Meanwhile she was maxing out at times on nearly every policy question.

    Hillary nailed it (5.00 / 6) (#13)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:55:28 PM EST
    on the economy and foreign policy.  She went much more into depth on the issues.  Obama spoke in generalities and stuttered when questioned on specifics.

    Moment to Say Huge Thansk (5.00 / 31) (#14)
    by cdalygo on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:55:51 PM EST
    Talk Left has emerged as one of the best sites on the net this election.

    You not only provided the easy link to debate but balanced coverage during it. Thanks for putting in the time, effort, and money to set it up.

    For once I'm happy about the Daily Kos meltdown. It's introduced me to some wonderful new bloggers.

    Amen. n/t (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by santarita on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Double amen! (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:12:38 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    true dat. (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by proudliberaldem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:11:36 PM EST
    thank you so much.

    [ Parent ]
    Absolutely agree!! (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by abfabdem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:32:33 PM EST
    Kudos to Talk Left!!

    [ Parent ]
    Ditto! (none / 0) (#209)
    by BostonIndependent on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:12:03 PM EST
    It was pretty cool.. Thank you!

    [ Parent ]
    NBC/MSNBC Was Shamed Tonight (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by JoeCHI on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:56:51 PM EST
    The contrast between ABC and NBC/MSNBC is SHOCKING!

    Mostly better than MSNBC (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by cdalygo on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:59:57 PM EST
    But not until the second half. Even me - a crazed HRC supporter - cringed a little bit during the first half of the debate.

    On the other hand it may provide evidence that his free ride in media is over. Let's see how it shakes out after Pennsylvania.

    I just worry that first half turned off a lot of folks. Second half on policy was great for showcasing Democratic advantages to run country.

    [ Parent ]

    interestingly (none / 0) (#54)
    by boredmpa on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:04:11 PM EST
    HRC had a negative response when she apologized about bosnia (for the majority of her statement time), but I don't recall Obama's meter going negative when he didn't apologize.

    Of course, she could have done better by focusing on 15 years ago instead.  Regardless, interesting that apologies don't go over well.

    [ Parent ]

    Why the heck (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:15:20 PM EST
    doesn't she just say, "I got carried away in telling about what was to me a pretty dramatic and scary experience"?  All this yada, yada, yada that makes little sense about how she knew she was wrong, over and over again about having written about it in the book-- yech.  It just makes her look worse.

    Everybody in the world knows what it's like to get carried away telling a good story and exaggerating the details.

    [ Parent ]

    When she used the word (5.00 / 4) (#139)
    by waldenpond on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:25:47 PM EST
    'embarrassed' she had a great spike, then she erred and kept talking.  She and all politicians need to see that meter and learn... apologize and then shut-up.  We little people want a person who says 'I screwed up'

    [ Parent ]
    I actually commend NBC to have guts to ask (none / 0) (#92)
    by TalkRight on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:12:35 PM EST
    some really relevant questions.. and he gave lots of mis-statement like .. I did not have handwritting on that paper.. I asked Rev to not join because of some other statements.. etc.

    [ Parent ]
    I sure wonder (none / 0) (#157)
    by abfabdem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:34:14 PM EST
    what those other statements were!  Almost expected them to ask him to share this info, but they dropped it.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (none / 0) (#35)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:00:32 PM EST
    Despite the ridiculous questions at the beginning.  But maybe even those were good b/c it balanced out the idiocy of the MSNBC debates and put Obama on the defensive for a change.

    [ Parent ]
    Absurd (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:04:37 PM EST
    ABC was just as bad as NBC.

    [ Parent ]
    ABC shamed itself (none / 0) (#193)
    by fuzzyone on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:52:02 PM EST
    just as NBC did during its debate.  If you can't see that you are as blinded by your partisanship as the Obama supporters who thought the NBC debates were just peachy.

    [ Parent ]
    Radio (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by rose city on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:57:52 PM EST
    I'm in California, so I could only listen on the radio. She sounded so competent, so ready with an answer, so confident.

    But I'm biased. I don't think Obama was bad, although he fumbled a bit. He just wasn't where she's at. He didn't have the mastery of the issues like she did. Again, I did not see it, only heard it.

    I thought George and Charlie were a lot better than the bozos on NBC and CNN. Also liked the audience restraint.

    Obama's negative history just doesn't work (5.00 / 12) (#24)
    by boredmpa on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:14 PM EST
    He keeps harping on failed government policies, but forgets SCHIP and Hillary's fight for health care, ignores Gore's work as VP, and re-visions the prosperous Clinton years.  

    It just seems too wrong.  He wants to paint himself in contrast to the past, but it's a hell of a risk to downplay democratic achievements while talking positively about Bush Sr.

    I noticed that he continually focused on (5.00 / 5) (#61)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:05:57 PM EST
    negative things (ie, "people are cynical because nothing is going well," kind of thing)  Hillary focused on the positive. There was no "Yes we can!" coming from him at all and his negativity didn't seem to be working  too well (acc. to the meter).

    [ Parent ]
    I kept getting a vibe from Obama of strong anger-- (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by jawbone on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:13:37 PM EST
    unfocused, but very much there. Then I began to think about the words he uses and anger, frustration is very much up there.

    If he doesn't speak of hope and change, he speaks of anger, bitterness, and frustration.

    [ Parent ]

    clearly we are all angry (5.00 / 3) (#186)
    by white n az on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:47:09 PM EST
    at least all Democrats are angry so it's hard to find his trying to tap into that anger as a really bad thing but it does make me wonder how he becomes the candidate of hope.

    What I find difficult to deal with is his continual forays into the ethereal aspects whereas Hillary gets to the point, gives her take and it is understandable. It's often a much better connection.

    I also find his waffling to be troubling. The capital gains tax is one very good example. Obama clearly didn't want to answer the question as Gibson framed it (which I understand), and then he noted the fundamental unfairness of people who make their living trading hedge funds or stocks and paying 15% on the capital gains while the American public pays 33% (approx) on their wages. So after he acknowledges this unfairness, he equivocates on raising it to 20%, to 28% (pre-1998) or raising it at all.

    Clearly this issue demonstrates the fact that neither Hillary nor Barack are actually progressive because a progressive simply would not equivocate the issue at all and the issue of people paying taxes equally should be a core issue.

    My own gut feeling is that I would have a hard time having to watch more campaign or a presidency with Obama's stilted speech patterns and continual equivocations. You can tell I'm really focused on the issues   ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    the objectionable negative history (5.00 / 7) (#73)
    by noholib on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:09:19 PM EST
    Yes to hear him tell it, there was one long terrible
    Clinton-Bush administration for decades.  The only relief came with Ronnie Reagan's intuiting how people were fed up with the "excesses" of the 70s and with Bush I's sound foreign policy.  You'd never know there was a two-term Democratic administration in the 1990s during which the economy was pretty good, there was no federal deficit, and there weren't two wars going on.  
    And there was a highly intelligent person in the White House who could actually put thoughts and sentences together coherently.  Hopefully the Democratic nominee will win in November so we don't have to cringe with embarrassment as we do now every time the POTUS is heard speaking.

    [ Parent ]
    This is why (4.85 / 7) (#82)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:11:11 PM EST
    I really don't think I could ever vote for him.  When he denigrates the Clinton years and praises Reagan and Bush I, it makes me question his core beliefs (if he has any).

    [ Parent ]
    He's not a Democrat? (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by waldenpond on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:33:53 PM EST
    There's an interesting article that Obama is attracting those that are attracted to independent candidates.... (Greater New England)

    Have you read The Rubes and Elites by Michael Lind?  Obama seems more of an independent to some.

    [ Parent ]

    I've called him a third-party candidate (5.00 / 3) (#218)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:24:22 PM EST
    from the start, exploiting the Dem party and taking from it what he wants but not its principles.  His is a third-party campaign within the party.  Very clever of him, but it is taking the party down the drain.  You may have noticed some concerns by the largest demographic group in the Dems, the mainstay of the party for decades, a certain gender base.:-)

    [ Parent ]
    third party candidate... (5.00 / 2) (#244)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:42:04 PM EST
    his closing statement addressed just that: that he succeeded in and will put together a new political coalition; doesn't this mean 'political party'?

    [ Parent ]
    Jake Tapper (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:29 PM EST
    is confusing Clinton with Stephanpolous (sp?) and Gibson.  The relentless attack came from them, not her.  I guess the honeymoon is already over!

    That ticked me off at Tapper (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:10:54 PM EST
    as she did not take the debate there, ABC did.

    Is even Tapper tanking?

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, this is rich (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:30 PM EST
    KO is complaining about the questions that were asked.

    haha! (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:09:21 PM EST
    I guess they should have asked, "Senator Obama, why is Hillary such a b*tch?"

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, then called (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:16:38 PM EST
    Edwards, Dodd, et al. to come back and ask them too.

    [ Parent ]
    Fair Fight (5.00 / 2) (#204)
    by Athena on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:06:10 PM EST
    Tonight, Hillary, ABC News, and Sean Hannity Conspired to Dupe the American People and Subvert Democracy

    That's over at Kos.  Pathetic.

    While the ABC balance may have been against Obama - that's because everything else has been so out of whack.

    People are not used to seeing Obama challenged.

    [ Parent ]

    My internet feed had the undecideds live response (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by magster on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:50 PM EST
    thing on it.  Clinton's weakest moments were in the first round, especially on the Tuzla answer, and was the only time either candidate was in the negative range.  Obama's weakest moment was on Wright, but stayed above negative range. They did not like Clinton going negative.

    Clinton was stronger in the second round.  The closing arguments were tied.

    If these undecideds are the judges, it was a tie.

    My thoughts are that if Clinton stays negative throughout the weekend, she's only hurting herself and Dems overall. That seems borne out by the ABC poll today, the polls showing zero movement on bittergate, and the undecideds reactions to her attacks on Obama in the first round, compared to her beating Obama in the second round.

    No way a tie (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:12:08 PM EST
    you're right on some of the peak highs and lows, but she was ahead overall, at least with that group.

    Once the media reframes it all, of course, he will have won tonight.

    [ Parent ]

    The media reframing (none / 0) (#107)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:14:54 PM EST
    has not worked yet.

    People who watched know what they say, and they'll make up their own minds.

    To be honest, I'm looking for a backlash against the media and in favor of Obama this time, though I think the second half almost made up for that.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually the undecideds chose (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by americanincanada on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:14:41 PM EST
    Hillary over Obama by a huge margin.

    Clinton 50%
    Obama   23%

    [ Parent ]

    The same group (none / 0) (#115)
    by magster on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:17:01 PM EST
    that had the dials?

    If so, then I'm wrong.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't agree that it was a tie ... (none / 0) (#56)
    by cymro on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:04:14 PM EST
    You may be right for the first 2/3 of the debate, but I believe the undecided meter was consistently higher for Clinton in the last third. From the Gun Control question onwards, Clinton was ahead.

    [ Parent ]
    They just now showed (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by ghost2 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:11:29 PM EST
    the after debate response, 11 to 5 says Hillary won.  

    [ Parent ]
    Someone has some sense at least. (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:14:06 PM EST
    The pundits are sure clueless.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, Im an Obama 5%'er (none / 0) (#106)
    by magster on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:14:50 PM EST
    so you may be right.  

    But my verdict of tie is based on how poorly she was received in the first part. It was like Obama got a 'B' through the whole debate, while Clinton got a 'C-''A-"A-" over the three segments.

    [ Parent ]

    About the polls... (none / 0) (#246)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:19:26 AM EST
    the media: ABCs,MSNBC,FOX, etc. have all been cherry-picking the polls to boost and support their relentlessly biassed baragge against Senator Clinton.
    Other more objective, with more accurate projections throughout the campaign season such as Pollster.com, SurveyUsa,just to name two. They both have Senator Clinton with a much broader lead.  

    [ Parent ]
    Obama weak but the MSM doesn't think so!! (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by BostonIndependent on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:56 PM EST
    The media MSNBC, CNN are all already giving the debate to Obama. LOL -- this media circus in favor of Obama is amazing! If people don't wake up .. there's no hope for this country.

    did they wait for it to end (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Klio on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:01:41 PM EST
    before they declared him the winner?

    [ Parent ]
    What a surprise! (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by stillife on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:03:53 PM EST
    I can't remember where I read it, but somewhere on one of the pro-Hillary blogs, there was an "MSM write-up" of the debate earlier today declaring Obama the winner.  

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah. It was Riverdaughter. She had it up (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by derridog on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:21:10 PM EST
    this morning. It's really funny. I hope it's okay to copy this. Here it is:

    Obama Post-Debate Congratulatory MadLib

    Posted on April 16, 2008 by riverdaughter

    As we all know, Obama has won tonight's debate.

    Congratulations to him! Now, the only question is, does Tweety need help writing the predestined post-debate script? I think we should give him a hand.

    Post Debate Script

    __! Was that ___ or what? Obama just ___ the ___. He was __ and fresh. Hillary just looked ___ today and off her ___, wouldn't you say Howard? I just felt a _____ in my ___. What a historic ___. His response to George's question on ___ was ____, ___, and ___. And she just couldn't deliver the knock out blow that she desperately needed. What an amazing response on ___. Do the voters of PA see what they have in this guy? His supporters are all so ___ and ___. I think he's finally put their fears of __ to rest once and for all. Andrea, you've been on the Clinton campaign bus. Have her __ and ___ supporters come to accept that she's proabably ____?

    Ok, go to it! We'll send the best one to MSNBC so Tweety can take the evening off and just relax until after the debate.

    [ Parent ]

    I guess they don't have to watch the meter ... (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by cymro on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:07:34 PM EST
    ... but it will be hard for ABC to ignore it.

    [ Parent ]
    Did you see the afternoon post (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by ghost2 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:13:08 PM EST
    at The Confluence?  

    It's great.  


    [ Parent ]

    They are? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:01:41 PM EST
    What is their reasoning...he won because everyone else was mean?

    [ Parent ]
    Seriously?! O.M.G. n/t (none / 0) (#48)
    by nycstray on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:03:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Reagan had teflon (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by BostonIndependent on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:09:23 PM EST
    but Obama has reality warping field that works through teevee. MSM has bought the story that he got bashed unfairly (CNN / Candie Crowley) and MSNBC drones (KO et al) kept saying -- 'there weren't any serious questions on the economy.. and as Barack says it's all gotcha politics'. Were they watching the same debate?!  

    I have two explanations: either they just watched the first two questions and had to "go do their reports" or are suffering from serious ABC-envy!!! LOL. As I said in the other thread, this debate was moderated the best  (I ssp. loved Charlie rebutting and pointing out Obama never answered the questions).

    Please write to them and let them have it. Go ABC! Go TalkLeft!

    [ Parent ]

    you tube (none / 0) (#159)
    by isaac on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:34:48 PM EST
    link to that part please!  sounds rich

    [ Parent ]
    Media Darling (none / 0) (#65)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:07:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    All they are talking about is the first part (none / 0) (#77)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:10:03 PM EST
    with all the gaffes.  I can't take it anymore.

    [ Parent ]
    He seemed unsure of himself (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by kenosharick on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:00:54 PM EST
    and she seemed presidential. She had specifics and he was terrible on Wright again. I had never heard abut his relationshp ith a '60s radical bomber.

    MSNBC (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by waldenpond on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:01:55 PM EST
    Chuck Todd... Clinton says he's still not fully vetted.  KO, weatherground... pardoned 2 women.  CT: Obama supporters will say it's not about issues, is debating radicals good for the party.  Clinton will say he needs to be vetted. Obama supporters angry, will say primary sinking to new lows.  She went through rough round he needs to go thru it. (mocking flag pins)

    Taxes: CT: both raise some, McCain will use it. SS back and forth, he hit back about commission, this could percolate back up.  CT: middle class taxes? wiggle room to break pledge.

    ewwww....  

    KO is now discussing turbulence.  Ferraro, Wright, speech, bosnia, $109 mill, penn, Bill, bosnia, bitter, 16 down to 6 pts.

    Look away, look away...

    I'm finding it harder to listen to Obama lately-- (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by jawbone on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:02:42 PM EST
    but I did think she had more contact with her audience, more energy, more snap to her responses, better organized replies, just all around better tonight.

    Again, I'm having increased trouble relating to Obama--and I started out for Edwards, but thinking toss up between Hillary and Obama. His early move toward the Repub SocSec-in-crisis talking points bothered me, then Krugman's analysis of his healthcare plan's shortcoming made me look more closely at Hillary and also Barack.

    When I read about his "seeing the light and you will have an epiphany and will realize you must vote for Barack Obama," I was flabbergasted. I could not believe someone would say something like that. Yikes!  

    Now, I'm committed to Hillary--and I had only a couple twinges of disappointment tonight during her answers, thought she nailed it.

    Right on (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by nellre on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:34:17 PM EST
    My evolution exactly.
    We have our eyes wide open. I cringe when she makes a mistake. I don't go and attack Obama supporters for it.

    [ Parent ]
    I noticed the audience (none / 0) (#234)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:01:59 PM EST
    Towards the later half when he was talking the people seemed distracted, when she was talking they seemed generally more engaged. Granted this doesn't necessarily reflect home viewers.

    [ Parent ]
    NBC's hypocrisy (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by RalphB on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:03:09 PM EST
    will know no bounds.  I refuse to watch them, so I like reading the comments here  :-)
    It's bad. (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Teresa on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:04:24 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I can't watch MSNBC anymore (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:03:30 PM EST
    I just had one of my near panic attacks where I have to race for the remote to turn KO off.

    I can't believe anyone is saying he won this thing.  Truly BTD is right - he will always be a media darling.

    Local focus group.... (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by Dawn Davenport on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:03:53 PM EST
    ...gave the debate to Clinton 2-1. A quarter said he won, and a quarter called it a draw.

    n=22

    was this only a local broadcast? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Chisoxy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:14:58 PM EST
    do you know? thanks

    [ Parent ]
    same feed as I was watching during the debate (none / 0) (#116)
    by Dawn Davenport on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:17:38 PM EST
    the local news station is doing a one-hour followup, including the spinmeisters and focus groups:

    link

    [ Parent ]

    "Keith Olbermann is the most... (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Cal on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:04:32 PM EST
    ...shameless ridiculous hack on TV."  AMEN!
    The first 40 minutes (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by kayla on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:06:16 PM EST
    were ridiculous.  I would go as far as to say that this was the most unfair debate so far.  Even more so than the last debate.  In the beginning, anyway.

    But after we got past that, I thought it was one of the more substantive.  They both did well.  Hillary did much better of course.  I wish she hadn't pressed some of the earlier issues against Obama, but I guess she did what she had to.  

    Ridiculous, maybe. Unfair, no. (none / 0) (#163)
    by cymro on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:35:42 PM EST
    Unfair is when one candidate is confronted by ridiculous attacks while the other is served ridiculous softballs.  

    [ Parent ]
    That was appalling (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:06:53 PM EST
    We all lose.

    The Fairest Debate Of The Season! (5.00 / 4) (#67)
    by JoeCHI on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:07:40 PM EST
    Put down the Kool-Aid!  The debate was one of the fairest debates of the season!

    You're just used to the anti-Clinton BS that permeates NBC/MSNBC and the rest of the MSM!

    Meter (5.00 / 6) (#69)
    by americanincanada on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:08:05 PM EST
    The undecideds who were doing the feedback on ABC gave it to Clinton.

    Clinton 50%
    Bo 28%

    Well what do they know? (kididng) (none / 0) (#76)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:09:34 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Now that's a score I can respect :-) (none / 0) (#78)
    by RalphB on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:10:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Really? Interesting. (none / 0) (#84)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:11:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Is the a link to this summary? (none / 0) (#120)
    by cymro on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:19:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    here (none / 0) (#128)
    by Dawn Davenport on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:22:19 PM EST
    link

    [ Parent ]
    Fineman admitted it wasn't a good night for Obama (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:08:47 PM EST
    I am stunned. Although he said it wasn't a game changer.

    Fineman is such a pathetic creature. (none / 0) (#102)
    by magisterludi on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:14:34 PM EST
    He is so in need of a new colorist.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama spinner's spin (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Dawn Davenport on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:10:30 PM EST
    "Hillary's always been a good debater, but Obama held his own."

    That's about as closest a tacit admission you'll get from them that she won hands-down.

    FIneman and Robinson on with KO now--let's see, (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by jawbone on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:10:45 PM EST
    none of them support Hillary right?

    Fineman on body language--that Obama was the leader overall! And moderators and Hillary were piling on.

    BO's body language, to me, did not look like felt like the front runner.

    Not great night for BO said Fineman! Quite an admission.

    Robinson--debate not that fresh. Thought second half better, new info from people. Noted that first time Robinson had heard Obama say guns were an individual right. Hillary on protection umbrella.

    Now, interesting that Robinson who is a political pundit did not know about the candidates' stands--deep intensive research, right?