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By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:32:36 PM EST
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By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

This is offensive:

Rep. Geoff Davis (R-KY) on Obama: "I'm going to tell you something: That boy's finger does not need to be on the button. He could not make a decision in that simulation that related to a nuclear threat to this country."

Davis apologizes.

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    "That boy?" (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:34:34 PM EST
    A racist Republican. How...unusual.

    Meanwhile, I don't want McCain's finger within 4,000 miles of that button. At least Obama doesn't want to "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran."

    While I reject and denounce Obama's nasty tactics (none / 0) (#172)
    by dotcommodity on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 08:08:31 PM EST
    (I'm a dailykos refugee like some I see here) in this primary...., Woah!!!!

    the thought of McCrazy with that rage problem with his finger on the nuclear trigger when rousted at 3AM, is enough to drive ME right into the Obama camp, pronto!

    Give me calm cool and collected over the nutball anyday. That backfires, bigtime!

    Parent

    Anyone asked McCain. . . (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:36:37 PM EST
    to defend his supporter?

    Bingo (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:36:58 PM EST
    McCain must reject and denounce him.

    Parent
    Oh, Adgarden, it really doesn't seem (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Joelarama on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:49:18 PM EST
    so bad after all of the racist things Hillary and her surrogates have done to Obama.

    Does it?  (Set your sarcasm meters to 11.)

    Parent

    Isn't it interesting (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:52:53 PM EST
    that some Obama supporters seem not to know real racism when they see it?

    Parent
    You are joking? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:56:24 PM EST
    Right?

    Parent
    Yes, joking. (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Fabian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:09:46 PM EST
    I've read seemingly hundreds of assertions that Clinton and her surrogates runs a blatantly racist and race baiting campaign.  Obama supporters seem to find racism/race baiting everwhere they look sometimes.  I half expect someone, somewhere to announce "CDIT!" - that's how jaundiced I am.

    Yes, it's offensive.  Yes, I am outraged.  Yes, I will send a politely worded email to the responsible party.  I'll do it because it's the right thing to do.

    Parent

    Sorry if I was being dense N/T (none / 0) (#107)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:24:20 PM EST


    Parent
    See my comment later in the thread. (none / 0) (#85)
    by Joelarama on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:14:06 PM EST
    You will see that I am joking.

    My point is that I'm afraid Obama's campaign and the big blogs (and all Democrats by extension, if he is our nominee) will reap what they have sewn by crying wolf over comments that were not racist, by fellow Democrats.

    Crying "racism" at every turn diminishes one's credibility when something truly racist comes along.

    Parent

    Blame the victim? (1.00 / 1) (#181)
    by debrazza on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:09:14 PM EST
    Are you sure that is the route you want to take?  Why not just take the high road and say that his comments are repugnant and leave it at that?

    Parent
    you have a point, but so does Joelarama. (none / 0) (#186)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:24:52 AM EST


    Parent
    If you look closely you will see I am (none / 0) (#203)
    by Joelarama on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:18:22 PM EST
    not blaming Obama/the "victim" for the racist remark.

    I resent that.

    Parent

    Don't hold your breath... (none / 0) (#25)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:43:59 PM EST
    AFAIC, he never denounced the supporter who asked him on videotape, "How do we beat the b**ch?"

    Parent
    He laughed at it (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jgarza on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:00:00 PM EST
    but after learning that he called his wife the "c" word, he prolly thinks the b word is a compliment.

    Parent
    One thing I've learned from Obama supporters (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:06:36 PM EST
    during this campaign, is that calling a woman the b word is perfectly understandable. Sad.

    Parent
    Very true (none / 0) (#93)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:18:27 PM EST
    Great article - Sexism in the Primaries:

    >>>It happens when the news media dissect Sen. Clinton's every gesture, comment and mood. For example, journalists trade comments on her likability -- is she unemotional ("cold") or too emotional? They talk about the unacceptability of her laugh ("cackle") or the tone of her voice ("shrill").
    Yet, these same journalists overlook the physical aspects of the male candidates. For example, no one ever comments on Sen. Obama's widely placed ears or how he cocks his chin up in an arrogant sort of way when he talks. They never mention that one side of McCain's face is larger than the other or that he must read his favorite quote by George Washington from a card because he can't remember it. No, that would be cruel.

    http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=291138

    Parent

    I love it (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by mbuchel on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 06:26:00 PM EST
    A post about how a racist republican calls Obama "boy" and you manage to turn it into a slam against Obama.  Brilliant!

    Parent
    I didn't turn it into a slam against Obama (none / 0) (#167)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:03:23 PM EST
    I responded to a comment that decried McCain's approval of the b word used against Hillary, and pointed out that I've been shocked to see Obama supporters repeatedly approve of the use of that word, or use it themselves. So, if anything, I turned it into a slam against Obama's supporters, not Obama, many of whom I find to be hypocritical in their simultaneous outrage against racism and approval of sexism. Just to be accurate:)

    I also decried the racist comments made against Obama above. So, personally, I prefer to stand up and speak out against ALL forms of bigotry consistently. If you don't like that, then tough for you.

    Parent

    That is extremely offensive (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:36:40 PM EST
    I would be calling on Mr. Davis to resign, frankly.

    Yes, I find it very offensive (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:39:39 PM EST
    Referring to a U.S. senator running for president as 'that boy' is offensive.

    Not to mention (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:40:58 PM EST
    that 'that boy' is way smarter than that man.

    Parent
    What is really interesting... (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by dianem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:42:02 PM EST
    ...is that this is the first time I've seen a blatantly racist statement about Obama in this campaign. I suppose that there is a slim possibility that he meant "boy" as "young man", and that he would have used the same phrasing if Obama were not black, but it's highly unlikely that a man from Kentucky would not be aware of the implications of calling a black man "boy".

    I take it for exactly what it sounds like (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:43:19 PM EST
    It's racist to the core.

    Parent
    No Doubt for Me (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by chrisvee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:58:48 PM EST
    Davis's comment has to be the most blatantly racist remark I've heard this campaign.  I find it disgusting in the extreme.  I hope the Clinton and the Obama campaigns both come out hard against it.

    Parent
    The guy's an idiot (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by frankly0 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:42:29 PM EST
    and I just looked up his age: he's only 49 himself.

    49? (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:48:48 PM EST
    Holy crap, there's no sugar-coating that.  I was thinking about my grandpa, who uses that word all the time, but at 49...that's just stupid.

    What a disgusting man.

    Parent

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t (none / 0) (#170)
    by Faust on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:14:01 PM EST


    Parent
    Here's that Congresscritter's (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by scribe on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:42:29 PM EST
    website, with a contact box (it looks like he uses a set of form "re" lines, and maybe a form letter.

    And here are the phone numbers:

    Washington:  phone  202-225-3465

    fax:  202-225-0003

    Washington office address:
    1108 Longworth House Office Building
    Washington, DC 20515

    District Offices
    Fort Mitchell District Office
    277 Buttermilk Pike
    Fort Mitchell, KY 41017
    (859) 426-0080 phone
    (859) 426-0061 fax

    Ashland District Office
    1405 Greenup Ave., Suite 236
    Ashland, KY 41101
    (606) 324-9898 phone
    (606) 325-9866 fax

    La Grange District Office
    108 W. Jefferson Street
    La Grange, KY 40031
    (502) 222-2233 phone
    (502) 222-4060 fax

    Maysville District Office
    Kenton Commonwealth Center
    201 Government Street, Suite 102
    Maysville, KY  41056
    (606) 564-6004 phone
    (606) 564-9355 fax

    Williamstown District Office
    City Building, Suite 145
    400 N. Main Street
    Williamstown, KY 41097
    (859) 824-3320 phone
    (859) 824-3340 fax

    You know what to do.

    I just called and a real (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:54:59 PM EST
    young man answered.  I think everyone should call, I don't think his office is going to know what hit them!  He was very polite but also clueless.

    Parent
    Likely an intern (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:00:26 PM EST
    be nice and use this as a teaching moment for a young Republican.

    Parent
    I called, too (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:02:55 PM EST
    and the guy sounded really annoyed, so maybe other folks have called by now, too.  I complained about both attacks, by the way.  I'll probably be one of the very few doing that as sexism seems to go unpunished.

    Parent
    What did he say about (none / 0) (#63)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:05:53 PM EST
    Clinton?

    Parent
    About Clinton (none / 0) (#117)
    by Grey on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:29:23 PM EST
    Rep. Davis said this:

    "I hear she hasn't been this worried since a new Hooters opened" near her home with former President Bill Clinton, McConnell said, prompting laughs from the 400 Northern Kentucky Republicans.


    Parent
    how do (none / 0) (#124)
    by Jgarza on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:37:11 PM EST
    republicans find this stuff funny, it's so classless.

    Parent
    Correction (none / 0) (#150)
    by Grey on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:08:28 PM EST
    I attributed the comments made about Clinton to Rep Davis, but it was Sen. Mitch McConnell who made them.

    Parent
    I joined you in complaining about (none / 0) (#81)
    by RalphB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:13:17 PM EST
    both remarks.  Did sound a little annoyed so the phone must be ringing off the wall.   :-)

    Parent
    I think you need to call McConnell re sexism (none / 0) (#95)
    by fuzzyone on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:18:42 PM EST
    Unless I'm reading it wrong he is the one who made the Hooters comment (which seems less sexist than an insult to Bill Clinton, but whatever).

    Parent
    Oh, and be sure to (none / 0) (#38)
    by scribe on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:49:45 PM EST
    (1) be polite - after all, it's a staffer you'll get, and after the hundredth call, they will have heard all the variations everyone can think of as to why Congresscritter Davis' was out of line;  and

    (2) be grateful - Congresscritter Davis' being an a**h*ole and a closet-klukker at once is one of the greatest gifts the Rethuglicans could have given the Democrats.  He's gonna help unify us like our own party leadership never could have.  Remember, we might fight among ourselves, but we all get together to go after the guy from outside the family, who goes after someone in the family.

    Parent

    i agree with what you said, except (none / 0) (#187)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:33:03 AM EST
    for this: "He's gonna help unify us like our own party leadership never could have.  Remember, we might fight among ourselves, but we all get together to go after the guy from outside the family, who goes after someone in the family."

    obama is not family, because he treats hillary and her supporters like garbage.  this is not just a little family squabble.  to me it feels like somebody who i thought was my brother, but who instead turned out to be a complete stranger, gleefully kicking the crap out of me and then expecting my unconditional love in return.  no thanks.

    Parent

    Racism and sexism (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:42:50 PM EST
    should be decried by both parties.

    No, Obama has not earned my respect, but he should not be the target of racist attacks either.

    Very offensive (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Foxx on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:44:36 PM EST
    And I expect all those who said nothing about the many misogynist attacks onh Clinton, to demand that she object.

    Click thru, McConnell got in a nice dig at (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:47:16 PM EST
    Hillary and Bill, too. What a disgusting group of Republicans at that gathering.

    Parent
    i'm sure NO obama supporters will (none / 0) (#188)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:36:38 AM EST
    step up to the plate to decry the attacks on hillary and bill.  after all, they joyfully launched them on their own.

    Parent
    Extremely (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by chrisvee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:46:11 PM EST
    Yes, that's extremely offensive.  Let's see what McCain does.  He should immediately denounce him.

    Please click on the link.  It looks like BKJM missed this comment:

    As for Obama's Democratic rival, McConnell said U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York seems to be "teetering on the brink."

    "I hear she hasn't been this worried since a new Hooters opened" near her home with former President Bill Clinton, McConnell said, prompting laughs from the 400 Northern Kentucky Republicans.



    OMG (none / 0) (#49)
    by angie on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:56:56 PM EST
    this guy is an elected official.  What a joke.

    Parent
    One thing I've noticed when watching C-SPAN (none / 0) (#71)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:09:38 PM EST
    is that the Republican Congresscritters are, for the most part, incredibly stupid.

    Parent
    Yes, that is an example of a racist (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Joelarama on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:46:40 PM EST
    comment.  I notice that it comes from a Republican.

    If Obama is the Democratic nominee, it's unfortunate that the Obama camp and especially his supporters at the big blogs have cried wolf so many times on allegedly racist comments, from Bill Clinton to Ed Rendell.

    Yes this is racism, folks.  I'm sure the "bitter" rural voters, Northern "Archie Bunkers" and misguided, "diva-loving" women and queens, and miscellaneous Democrats-who-must-be-racists-because-they-do-not-support-Obama, all would agree.

    But, comments like these come off as just background noise after the big boy blogs' shrill accusations of racism against Democrats in the past few months.

    And, "boy" might seem a bit mild, after Kos and Aravosis' baseless and destructive accusations that Hillary's campaign blackened and widened Obama's face in a poltical video.

    Sorry, but there is nothing "mild" (none / 0) (#182)
    by debrazza on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:16:34 PM EST
    ...about calling a grown Black man a "boy".

    Why the need to equivocate and say that Obama deserves it?  Just rise above it for once.  Not everything needs to be viewed through the lens of the campaign.  I think your comments venture into blaming the victim territory.

    The comments are just awful, same with McConnell's.

    Parent

    i don't think you understand the (none / 0) (#190)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:45:08 AM EST
    extent of damage wreaked by the obama campaign.  as i said above, i think you have a point, but so does joelarama.  both racism and sexism have to be condemned--but for obama's supporters, it's only been a one-way street; they want our support in the face of adversity, but give none--and indeed, seem to relish inflicting pain and jumping in with other attackers.  so please don't be surprised when some of us are not in an eager mood to come to your defense.  with that said, it is an offensive statement and yes, davis should be condemned for it.

    Parent
    Ah. (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:50:45 PM EST
    Clinton was insulted, too.  Let's see where the outrage will be: over the racism or over the sexism.

    I'm taking bets.  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?

    (what a great opportunity for contrast as to how one campaign handles a slur over another, though.)

    So he insulted both of them... (none / 0) (#52)
    by americanincanada on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:59:07 PM EST
    hmmm...if you denounce it then you have to denounce the sexism as well. If Obama can't do that then he should keep his mouth shut.

    Parent
    And Obama misses the point... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by americanincanada on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:02:53 PM EST
    I really wish Obama would have made a different, even stronger statement, against this bigoted tool's remarks about both he and Senator Clinton. Oh well...

    "It's hard to tell what is more outrageous - Representative Davis' condescending and personal attack, or his absurd and offensive claim that Barack Obama is not prepared to defend America. Geoff Davis may hide behind offensive tough talk, but he has marched in lock-step with Bush-McCain policies that have devastated our national security while Barack Obama has stood up against a misguided war in Iraq and worked with respected Republicans like Dick Lugar and Chuck Hagel to secure loose weapons and nuclear materials from terrorists," said Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton.


    Parent

    lord, and there I was riding the unity pony (none / 0) (#133)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:48:23 PM EST
    So it is hard to tell which is worse, the racism or...the stuff Clinton has also been saying about me.  Nice pivot, Barack.

    Parent
    Unfortunately (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:52:39 PM EST
    Obama has been crying "wolf" so often in this primary at things the Clinton's have said that are supposedly racist - that it has gotten old. People are going to start yawning at these claims. Even worse, they're going to think that 8 years of having everything everyone says misinterpreted to be racist would just be too much to bear.
    I don't know about that (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by kayla on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:58:53 PM EST
    this is pretty bad.  This isn't race-baiting... this is racist.

    Parent
    Yes, (none / 0) (#161)
    by nemo52 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:47:35 PM EST
    Undeniably, old-school racist.  And even though I am not currently supporting Obama, I decry this kind of language.  (The sexist remarks should be decried as well. QED

    Parent
    it is racist. but obama's supporters have (none / 0) (#192)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:50:38 AM EST
    wreaked unprecedented damages on the dem party.  i don't think you can underestimate how bad the damage is.

    Parent
    Good News (5.00 / 5) (#55)
    by BDB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:00:58 PM EST
    This jerk has a democratic challenger for November, Dr. Michael Kelly.  His website is a little thin, but he does talk about getting out of Iraq and fixing the healthcare system.  

    This Clinton supporter, who grew up in Kentucky, is going to throw $25 towards the Democratic nominee for KY-04 tonight to help Kelley or whoever is running against this racist tool in November.  

    I'm going to join you in that donation. (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:20:43 PM EST


    Parent
    Glad To Hear It (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by BDB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:29:37 PM EST
    It's always nice when these creeps surface to help me decide exactly where to direct my limited resources.  

    And that apology was weak.  

    Parent

    Excellant idea (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:40:28 PM EST
    This is the best way to fight these guys.  Give them real consequences.

    Parent
    Horrifying (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Grey on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:01:13 PM EST
    What a disgusting, racist, ignoble thing to say.

    Absolutely offensive. (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by gmo on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:02:57 PM EST
    Referring to Obama, the african american front running democratic candidate for president, as "boy" is deeply offensive and racist.  Period.

    Whatever the spin some may try to put on this statement, sometimes the racist words that fall too easily from some people's mouths, words that are clearly historical markers of racism, are clearly indicative of who they are as people.  

    There's no room for spin on this one -- referring to Obama as "boy" has no wiggle room for a difference of age -- Davis is all of three years older than Obama!

    Unfortunately, Davis comes from the 4th District of KY, and I fear that this comment will be attributed not just to Davis, but to all the people of KY and the people he represents.   For that reason, I think Davis should step down immediately.  

    I don't need to know (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:08:10 PM EST
    what Obama has said about sexism towards Clinton to know that this is a racist comment.

    But no outrage by TPM or any Obama supporter (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:10:52 PM EST
    about this statement via the same article from McConnell

    "I hear she hasn't been this worried since a new Hooters opened" near her home with former President Bill Clinton

    Just the crickets.

    I'm sorry, but if they want outrage from me, they need to be equally outraged about the sexism as they are about the racism.

    Yes, it was sheer unadultered racism, but sheer unadultered sexism happens every single day, often via the 'librul media,' often at the hands of the same folks who are screaming bloody murder about this -- can you say "gelding, TPM?".

    This is disgusting (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:14:39 PM EST
    Now I have to call him back and complain again...how did you miss this BTD?

    Parent
    That is offensive too (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:12:49 PM EST
    Buuut, it is not nearly as bad imo.

    Parent
    Why BTD? (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by miriam on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:33:21 PM EST
    Why is mysognism not as bad?  It negatively impacts 50% of the population and Hillary Clinton has received worse specific comments on her gender than "boy" everyday.  Note, too, the number of males who say they will never vote for a female--how many women say they will never vote for a male?

    It will be a good thing when we recognize both sexism and racism as unacceptable.  

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#87)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:15:47 PM EST
    But it's not just that ONE.  The sexism happens every. single. freaking. day.  One comment on one day, no matter how bad is worse than the daily drip of utter misogynistic bullcrap that comes out.

    Grow a uterus, you'll then understand.

    Parent

    With all respect, I suppose us ladies (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:21:01 PM EST
    might make a case for calling it offensive that you only pulled the quote about Obama but left off the one about Clinton; however, we know you (inasmuch as you can on the internet), we have read your very fair posting history and we understand that you are a good guy and we cut you slack because of that.

    If you find it offensive that us women, after listening to Clinton being denigrated and nearly destroyed by false accusations of racism, are simply pointing out that Obama has cried wolf so many times that now, when there has really been a horrible slur by someone who is obviously racist, the charge carries less weight, then I guess we need to ask the same thing of you that we allow in return: cut us some slack.

    Parent

    Oops, meant to say (none / 0) (#99)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:21:10 PM EST
    Is NOT worse than the daily drip...one comment no matter how bad is not worse than the daily drip.

    Parent
    I have one... (none / 0) (#105)
    by CST on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:23:12 PM EST
    I find that comment offensive, tasteless, belittling.  Sexist?  I just don't see it.  Calling Hillary the b word is sexist, calling Bill a womanizer... not so much.  Although, I have noticed a significant generation gap (at least in my family) when it comes to views on gender relations, so maybe I am missing something.

    Parent
    When was the last time (none / 0) (#113)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:27:03 PM EST
    you saw the same kind of statement uttered about a man.

    It's misogynistic, disrespectful, and sexist.

    Parent

    That seems like a tenous comparison (none / 0) (#127)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:39:50 PM EST
    Bill Clinton's infidelity has been the butt end of a joke for 10 years.  He nearly was kicked out of the White House because of his infidelity.  

    There are a lot of Americans who find it a weakness to "allow" your spouse to cheat on you.  Doesn't matter which gender you are talking about.

    Parent

    Would he have said that (none / 0) (#114)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:27:47 PM EST
    to a man whose wife had cheated on him?  It would be considered the highest insult--just as it is when it is said about Clinton.

    For men, the word is "cuckold."  I don't know the word for women.  Probably best I don't.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#119)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:31:18 PM EST
    It didn't hit me as sexist. There have been worse things than that joke said about Hillary.  

    I choose to concentrate on this incident with Obama as if it happened on the first day of the campaign.  That way I can gauge my reaction without the interference of the last few months.

    Parent

    I agree - it's not sexist (none / 0) (#157)
    by dianem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:28:42 PM EST
    It's demeaning to Clinton and quite tasteless, but I don't think it's sexist.

    Parent
    Just curious (none / 0) (#101)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:22:45 PM EST
    but why is that comment sexist?  It is a fairly obnoxious thing to say and crude but why sexist?

    Seems like he was attacking Bill by calling him a cad.

    Parent

    I guess what happened (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:42:31 PM EST
    with the Clintons is so much a part of our national psyche that it doesn't resonate anymore, but let's look at them as real human beings for a moment.

    She was absolutely humiliated by the affair and had all the salacious details thrown in her face when it happened, and now she is having them thrown back again.  Her daughter will hear this remark.  

    The only reason this a-hole brought it out was to humiliate Hillary Clinton.  He would not have done that to a man.  There are certain levels of deep disrespect that men like that only save for women.

    Parent

    It is hard for me (none / 0) (#138)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:54:06 PM EST
    to accept the notion that he would not have done that to a man when, just a few sentences earlier, he tried to belittle a man.

    I can see disgraceful.  I can see contemptuous.  I can't see sexist.

    There ARE fundamental differences in how we treat both genders.  But that doesn't mean that treating men and women differently equates to sexism.  

    We can never live in a society in which men and women are treated exactly the same nor would I want to.  

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#144)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:58:23 PM EST
    Can I paraphrase you?

    We can never live in a society in which black people white people are treated exactly the same nor would I want to.

    No. I probaby can't.

    Do you see now?

    Parent

    Wow indeed (none / 0) (#158)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:29:31 PM EST
    skin color is a physical attribute that does not impact who you are in any way, other than the biases a society imposes upon you.  There is nothing a white person can do that a black person cannot.

    From birth your gender defines you.  Your entire upbringing is based on gender roles.  You are genetically predisposed to certain characteristics.  

    Perhaps you would prefer to live in an androgynous society but I do not.  


    Parent

    Turning that around.... again (none / 0) (#160)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:37:09 PM EST
    Sex is a physical attribute that does not impact who you are in any way, other than the biases a society imposes upon you.  There is nothing a man can do that a woman cannot.

    From birth your skin color defines you.  Your entire upbringing is based on racial roles.  You are genetically predisposed to certain characteristics.  

    Perhaps you would prefer to live in a post-racial society but I do not.  

    Do you see yet?

    Parent

    Are you being serious? (none / 0) (#166)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 06:45:15 PM EST
    Does anyone else agree with this?  

    Parent
    I certainly don't... (none / 0) (#171)
    by independent voter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:44:40 PM EST
    racism and sexism are not the same thing.
    And I totally agree with you, I completely enjoy the differences between men and women. The spice of life

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#180)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:37:55 PM EST
    I'm being serious about showing what your ingnorant statements look like when they're made about an issue you care about instead of an issue you don't care about.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#189)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:40:50 AM EST
    You think it's about what I care about?  Pretty funny stuff.

    If identifying the fact that men and women are not the same is ignorant, clearly I am an ignorant fool.  I'll just go on lusting after women anyway.  You can continue to claim there is no difference between the sexes if you like.  I for one find some pretty dramatic differences.  But that's just me.

    Parent

    There are some differences (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:50:17 AM EST
    Between black people and white people, too, aren't there?

    The question is how we allow those differences to devolve into prejudice and discrimination.

    And on that count, sir, what you fail to realize is that both women and black people face obstacles that white men don't face.

    By maintaining this "racism is worse than sexism" argument, you embrace a zero sum game, make people make a false choice.

    The primary never should have been about fighting over who gets discriminated against more -- black people or women -- but I do know that if it was about issues Obama never would have had a chance.


    Parent

    Hmmm... (none / 0) (#199)
    by Alec82 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:18:00 AM EST
    ...maybe as a gay man I would accept this meme if it didn't mean that other forms of open bigotry gets a pass while subtle forms are condemned (regularly) by candidates embracing identity politics.

     Both sides of the gender/racial media-created divide can follow this trail to a loss in November.

    Parent

    Actually no (none / 0) (#201)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:18:37 AM EST
    I made no qualitative judgments on which was worse, racism or sexism.  

    What I said was the fact that men and women are treated differently doesn't necessarily equate to sexism although it may.  

    There are some reasons why we treat the genders differently that innate to being human.  There are some reasons that are based on nothing but prejudice and bigotry.  We shouldn't conflate the two, which you seem to be doing.

    Parent

    You are davaluing one (none / 0) (#202)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:57:18 AM EST
    Against the other.

    Parent
    IMO it was an attack on both (none / 0) (#139)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:55:20 PM EST
    It was more overt with Bill; but it was also a dig at Hillary.

    Parent
    Certainly (none / 0) (#143)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:57:27 PM EST
    it was a jab at both of them, with Bill being the main target.  But I still don't see the sexism.

    Parent
    Seems To Me (none / 0) (#132)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:46:34 PM EST
    That the real sexism in the quote was the synechdoche 'Hooters'.

    Parent
    Any statement from Hillary yet about 'boy'? (none / 0) (#135)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:50:24 PM EST
    I'm waiting.

    Parent
    She would be smart to strongly denounce it (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:56:49 PM EST
    Immediately.

    Parent
    Glad to see you did (none / 0) (#148)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:07:21 PM EST
    But then I expect no less.

    Parent
    Why? (none / 0) (#137)
    by CST on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:52:49 PM EST
    She didn't say it.  She shouldn't have to comment.  It has nothing to do with her.  If she wants to respond to the attacks made at her thats fine.  It isn't her job to defend Obama, or comment on every stupid thing republicans say.

    Parent
    I agree with this (none / 0) (#140)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:55:41 PM EST
    she shouldn't obligated to make a comment about this.  However I suspect she will, since it costs her nothing.

    I would say that there were several people on this site condemning Obama because he wasn't vocal in condemning others for their words and deeds.

    Parent

    Isn't that what people here (none / 0) (#147)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:05:45 PM EST
    are always demanding - that Obama should denounce every cr*ppy thing anyone says about HRC...and then excoriating him when he doesn't?

    I'll probably skip the excoriating part though if she fails to step up and denounce it. :)

    Parent

    are you kidding me? (none / 0) (#193)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:00:17 AM EST
    i felt LUCKY when obama didn't milk bosnia for everything it was worth, because i've grown so accustomed to his jumping in and launching the attacks himself.  never, not for one second in my wildest dreams, do i ever imagine him coming to HRC's defense against an independent attack.  NEVER.

    Parent
    Hey, come join us (none / 0) (#149)
    by tree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:07:42 PM EST
    on the Group W bench while we wait for Obama to comment on "pimp". I'm betting you won't have to wait anywhere near as long as we've been waiting.

    Parent
    Isn't that sweet? (none / 0) (#163)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:55:07 PM EST
    I love how Hillary is derided by men who ridicule her for putting up with Bill's womanizing. As if it's her fault. As if a huge percentage of men aren't unfaithful anyway.

    And before I get all the sanctimonious comments about how she should have left him, I simply will not listen to that stuff anymore. As if many, many marriages and relationships are not riddled with infidelity. People who get on their high horses and mock her for staying with him are so insensitive. Relationships are highly complex for the vast majority of people. Despite the pain of infidelity, some women stay, and apparently for a whole host of reasons:  extended families, children, persistent love despite the pain, and so on.  How can we know?

    Where is the compassion for a wife and daughter who were so hurt and so humiliated?

    Parent

    Not Just Men (none / 0) (#164)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 06:21:25 PM EST
    I know some otherwise very intelligent women who would not vote for Hillary because she stayed with Bill. The argument, which I do not understand, is that she was publicly humiliated by defending him while he clearly lying to her.

    I have had this argument against this position several times and at best the woman said, hmm,  I had not thought of that, but voted Obama anyway.

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#168)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:07:01 PM EST
    I don't understand it. Surely, everyone has either experienced the pain of infidelity or been close to someone who has. People handle it in all manner of ways. It's just none of our business, and certainly not up to us to humiliate Hillary and Chelsea even more. Thanks for your comment.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#197)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:36:12 AM EST
    It always seemed to me that couples that are able to move on after something like this are much stronger and wiser as a result. Forgiveness is something a leader needs to be comfortable with imo. It is a big positive for Clinton.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:11:06 PM EST
    That's bad.  Very offensive - no other way to take it.

    Racism is never OK no matter (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by athyrio on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:12:09 PM EST
    where it comes from....Glad to see all Democrats comdemning it....

    Stomach - turning (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:13:57 PM EST
    I'm sure we'll get nothing but his excuses, but he needs to get out of my Congress.

    This reminds me why I'm a Democrat. (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:18:32 PM EST


    I cringe when I remember (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:22:53 PM EST
    that guys like this USED to be Democrats.

    Parent
    Unfortunately, we still have a few too. (none / 0) (#130)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:44:32 PM EST
    When I did phone banking for Harold Ford, everyone volunteered right up front that they were voting for Bredesen for governor but some wouldn't vote for Ford and would not tell me why. I figured if it was his family's reputation, they'd just say so, but they wouldn't give me any reason at all and would just hang up.

    It wasn't too many, but this was a list of Democratic primary voters, not Republicans. Really disappointing. Of course, I'm in the redneck part of Tennessee (I can say that since I'm from here).

    Parent

    IIRC, you're from the part (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:49:34 PM EST
    of TN where the white Republicans have always been Republicans. That's a rarity in the South. Were you perhaps calling west TN?

    Parent
    Nope, calling here in Knoxville. (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:21:12 PM EST
    This area has some quite moderate Republicans but also several areas where a black person wouldn't dare go. Some of the people from those two or three counties must have moved here. I didn't have anyone say they wouldn't vote for Ford because of his race but that was my impression. He did as well as any Democrat has done lately in East TN so maybe I'm wrong.

    Parent
    Is Wikipedia wrong when it says (none / 0) (#156)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:27:51 PM EST
    Historically, Republicans had their greatest strength in East Tennessee prior to the 1960s. It was one of the few areas of the South with a Republican voting history
    ?

    In any case, I'm sure there are plenty of racists throughout, as there are everywhere.

    Parent

    No, they're right. We fought on the Union side (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:53:08 PM EST
    too. It's one of the most Republican areas anywhere. We haven't had a Democratic congressman in about two hundred years. Most local offices don't even field a candidate against the Republican.

    I will say, many of the Republicans here are fairly moderate and not anymore racist than your average Democrat in this area. A black Republican could easily get elected in this area.

    I didn't mean to imply that East TN is racist because it is probably the least racist area of TN as far as I can tell. But we do have some. And we have the hillbillies galore. I have to call the UK some at work and even those folks know I'm from the south. I talked to a man in California last week and my accent made his day. I just can't get rid of it.

    Parent

    I was touring (wish I could link) (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Molly Pitcher on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 08:40:43 PM EST
    the Tower of London and the Beefeater nearby interrupted the conversation and said, "You're from East Tennessee."  My family arrived in East Tenn. in 1792.  And my accent is still here after 47 years away, durn it!

    Confederates attacked Union soldiers at Fort Sanders in Knoxville, but Johnny Reb stayed out of the mountain area mostly--neither group was welcome because they took all the food.  Interesting tales about Gov. Ben Hooper, Repub., at Snopes, plus
    tennesseeencyclopedia.net/imagegallery.php?EntryID=K018

    Parent

    I didn't know you were in East TN. (none / 0) (#175)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 08:49:42 PM EST
    What part if you don't mind saying?

    Parent
    Tenn home (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Molly Pitcher on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:02:09 PM EST
    I am over the mountains in South Carolina, where I have been stuck for 46 or so years--Ancestors are buried off highway 66 (?) near I-40.  But I grew up near Sharps Ridge (Whittle Springs).

    Parent
    Ah, so! (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Molly Pitcher on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:57:00 PM EST
    Ever hear of the Crumps down at the other end of Tennessee?  I'll take the rednecks and the hillbillies any day.  

    Parent
    lol, Molly, I've heard of them. (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:23:38 PM EST
    You should read the local papers about the political mess in Knoxville this past year. We even made the New York Times!

    I do prefer the mountains and people of East TN, I just wish there were more Democrats.

    Parent

    And I see now (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Nadai on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:20:01 PM EST
    that he's apologized - called it a "poor choice of words".  Now there's an understatement for you.

    Not Enough (none / 0) (#110)
    by chrisvee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:25:29 PM EST
    That was a quick response (guess the phone calls worked) but not enough for me.  I think he should resign.  He's just outed himself as a racist.

    I'm rather sorry I clicked the link.  I only made it  9 comments down on the article before someone was blaming Senator Clinton for Davis's remarks. What a world.

    Parent

    Here it is: (none / 0) (#178)
    by Molly Pitcher on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:05:44 PM EST
    Isn't this about what Obama said when called on the bitterness remark?  Tit for tat.  Except that the racial slur was worse by far.

    Parent
    It's beyond disgusting (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:21:28 PM EST
    especially coming from an elected official? Would the district he represents countenance this behavior? I hope that all who stand for decency in this country would denounce his behavior.  

    Get ready... (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Alec82 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:13:59 PM EST
    ...because we are going to see the nastiest, most divisive racialized campaign we have ever witnessed if Senator Obama gets the nomination.  It will be ugly, and this remark (which is ugly on its own) will seem like nothing.

     If Senator Clinton gets the nomination, we will see misogyny in its truest, most visceral form as well.  The primary season is not gloves off, folks.  Neither Senator Clinton nor Senator Obama has the desire or the ability to win by appealing to our lesser natures (although President Clinton came pretty damn close in SC).  That is not a restraint that Senator McCain (or more likely, conservative interest groups, which is why public financing is risky) will show.  Indeed, he only decided to stop calling Vietnames people "gooks" in 2000.  

    Why is it appealing (none / 0) (#179)
    by Molly Pitcher on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:10:58 PM EST
    to our lesser nature to mention Jesse Jackson?  He's a local (Greenville) fellow who's 'made good.'  Just wondering why that comparison was an insult.  Is it assumed that he made a fool of himself by running or something?

    Parent
    I think... (none / 0) (#198)
    by Alec82 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:15:23 AM EST
    ...it was dismissive of him as an "also-ran" black candidate.  President Clinton could easily have pointed to Senator Edwards' run in 2004 (he won SC after all).  He didn't.  I (think) BTD and Jeralyn have similar problems with this comment.  Is it racist? No, not necessarily.  Does it have the same effect as race baiting? Yup.

      Unfortunately, it was unnecessary and divisive.  More importantly, it revealed a weakness in Senator Clinton's preferred campaign methods.  She switched, maybe in time, maybe not.  

    Parent

    don't go there, alec. (none / 0) (#194)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:05:15 AM EST
    obama's four-page memo is inexcusable.

    Parent
    is it really that back to say (1.00 / 1) (#6)
    by TruthMatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:37:26 PM EST
    that boy?

    I mean I just see it as an old folk young folk person.

    like its when a young guy is with his girl and he tried to get out of shoe shopping and couldn't the older man next to him was like, nice try son.

    I don't see the using the son as racist more ageist I guess?

    but that is me, to me the word racist and sexist is thrown to easily.

    when "stupid" is often a better fit.

    I know you're trying to be clever.... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:41:29 PM EST
    ...but its not working. If you want to let that kind of crap fly, I don't. I denounce and reject it.

    Parent
    what being clever (none / 0) (#68)
    by TruthMatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:09:22 PM EST
    I have a different opinion, I don't think it was that big of a deal to me, and I am an obama supporter.

    duly noted, think the way you do or my opinion is bad.

    Parent

    Your opinion is bad on this matter.... (none / 0) (#109)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:25:14 PM EST
    ...my husband is African American, 50 years old, and I can assure you he would consider those fighting words. My son maybe not so much because he's only. Are you African American?

    Parent
    Re my son, he's only 19 I meant to say.... (none / 0) (#112)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:26:46 PM EST
    ...and in the context of having his finger on "the button" that comment might conceivably pass the smell test. With regards to Obama it doesn't. And I am NOT an Obama supporter but I decry racism and bigotry wherever I see it.

    Parent
    The creative class speaks (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:42:19 PM EST


    Parent
    sorry, it is that offensive (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by angie on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:42:34 PM EST
    sure, it is stupid too, but there is too much history about grown black men being referred to by white men as "boys" for it not to be.
    Please take note -- I am defending Obama here.  However, I also note that imo since the Obama camp has cried wolf on the "racist" rhetoric that wasn't really racist (think, Hillary & LBJ), they may have deluded the impact the outcry that this comment should rightly receive.

    Parent
    You might be correct (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:45:36 PM EST
    in the shoe situation, but we are not at Macy's.  This is not some old grandpa chuckling about a poor younger guy.  This is blatantly seeking to belittle and denigrate an opponent and using a term that can be construed-and has historically been construed-as highly offensive.  I have no doubt that someone representing the good people of KY knew exactly what he was saying, and how offensive it would be.

    I see Obama as between a rock and a hard place as to how to respond, because even though this is clearly a racist remark, they might be at the crying wolf point in the game because of leveling that charge so early and often at the Clintons.  Someone said a while back that they would only be able to use that charge so many times before it lost its power.  

    Again, I think the best thing for Obama to do is ignore it, and if asked, just laugh it off as some crazy old man and move on.  

    You know, like he did with Wright.

    Parent

    Geoff Davis is just three years older than Obama (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by tree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:54:31 PM EST
    Born in 1958. He didn't mean it in the old person young person vein. It was a racist comment.

    Parent
    well I didn't know how old he (none / 0) (#76)
    by TruthMatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:11:03 PM EST
    was I thought he was way older then Obama, it is much worse if he is basically the same age as Obama and called him boy.

    Parent
    Yes it is (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:39:27 PM EST


    Parent
    A very loaded word (none / 0) (#13)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:40:58 PM EST
    It really is, and should have not been used. Don't care what the "reason" is.

    Parent
    "Boy" has a very specific meaning. (none / 0) (#39)
    by Joelarama on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:50:36 PM EST
    Do some research on Southern paternalism.

    Parent
    Not to make excuses (none / 0) (#47)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:56:34 PM EST
    because this a-hole knew exactly what he was saying and exactly who he was talking to, and he was obviously being racist as heck and there is not excuse for what he said about Obama OR Clinton, but my grandpa uses "boy" all the time to describe anyone younger than him.  I call my nephew "boy" all the time, too.  There is a right way and a wrong way to use it, but it is part of the vernacular.  

    It's like "honey" and "sweetie."  Only a certain type of man of a certain age can get away with calling me that and not getting his nads handed to him on a plate.  My mailman calls me "sweetpea" and I give him a Christmas card every year. If the weird guy at my gym called me that, I'd slash his tires with the pen knife I keep in my glove compartment.

    Parent

    It is not in the south. (none / 0) (#103)
    by Joelarama on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:23:11 PM EST
    I am from the South.  When a Southern, white male (or woman) uses the term "boy" to describe a grown black man (particularly an "uppity" one), it is racist.  

    It is white supremacy to the core, and any honest Southerner, racist or not, will admit it.  

    I have heard gay men in their forties call themselves "boys."  I have heard the Ratpack refer to themselves as "the boys."  I went to a Culture Club concert with "Boy George" in my teens.

    Context is everything, and it's key.  That's why I'm so pissed off that Obama's supporters, particularly Kos ans Aravosis, have resorted to baseless accusations of racism, often by taking comments out of context.

    Parent

    "boy" is not, per se, offensive... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:08:30 PM EST
    ...like alot of thing, it's how its used. If you were to say, "that Obama is a good 'ol boy" that would be a common Southern phrase to ID another man that you like. But, here "boy" is used in the pejorative.  

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#79)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:12:20 PM EST
    and used in this context, by a 49 year old man, it is blatantly obvious that he is using a racial slur.

    If anyone has a question about it, then keep reading, because he then goes on to insult Clinton as well.  If it wasn't meant as a dig, then he would not have used the word.


    Parent

    The guy seems so institutionally racist... (none / 0) (#106)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:23:14 PM EST
    ...that he said "boy" in such nonchalant way that you get the sense that this is how he typically refers to African Americans.  

    Parent
    Exactly. (none / 0) (#89)
    by gmo on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:16:09 PM EST
    It's the context that shows racism, even more so IMO than is the clear historical marker that using the word "boy" to refer to adult african american men. (Though I get the sense Davis knows about both).

    I forget where I saw it, but someone made this comparison:  if a police officer pulled you over and referred to him as "boy," it's immediately interpreted as an affront to his authority, whereas if it came from his parents, it would surely be considered a term of affection.  

    Davis has absolutely no justification for use of the word to describe Obama, not to mention the equally perjorative toss-off description of him as "that" boy, as if he's just some other nobody.   Referring to an Illinois senator AND the frontrunning candidate for the democratic nomination as "boy" in this context is deeply offensive and racist.  No question.

    Parent

    Not from the South are you? (none / 0) (#111)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:25:53 PM EST
    and if I had to guess, I'd say you are under 40.

    The term boy has a long and ugly history in terms of race. Since you seem to be unaware of this, I make the guess that you are not from the South and are younger than 40.

    Parent

    I am neither from the south (none / 0) (#115)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:28:07 PM EST
    nor over 40, but I have a cultural literacy and sensitivity sufficient to understand what "boy" means in this context.

    Parent
    Yes and you are of above average (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:32:41 PM EST
    intelligence. Undoubtedly from Lake Woebegone.

    Not being from the South or being under 40 doesn't mean you won't understand the racial context.

    Parent

    I am from the south (none / 0) (#122)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:33:49 PM EST
    born and raised and proud of it.  I was talking about context, as were others, because there are many colloquial uses of the term. None of us referring to the colloquial said in any way that the man was not using a racist slur.  I think the discussion got us off track from the point, which is simply:

    A 49 year old white man calling a 46 year old black man a "boy" is an insult.  It is an insult in the south, it is an insult in IL and it is an insult in KY.  There is no mistaking his meaning.  There is no nuance.  There is no "but, that's how we talk in the south" to explain it away.

    This man was wrong.  Period.

    Parent

    I could be wrong (none / 0) (#136)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:52:29 PM EST
    but I think you totally misread my remarks. They were not directed at you.  I certainly don't disagree with

    A 49 year old white man calling a 46 year old black man a "boy" is an insult.  It is an insult in the south, it is an insult in IL and it is an insult in KY.  There is no mistaking his meaning.  There is no nuance.  There is no "but, that's how we talk in the south" to explain it away.


    Parent
    I often (1.00 / 1) (#145)
    by sas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:59:30 PM EST
    call young people boys and girls.

    I'm not sure this author spoke offensively.

    I don't know him/her.

    Obama is not a young person (none / 0) (#146)
    by CST on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:02:54 PM EST
    Not even close.  He is also a senator and running for president.  The person who said this is 3 years older than him.  It was offensively meant.

    Parent
    What Planet Are You From? (none / 0) (#153)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:18:29 PM EST
    Either you are incredibly out of touch or you are a part of the club. Not sure which, or which club.

    Parent
    Extremely (none / 0) (#2)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:34:56 PM EST
    offensive.  This is one the DNC, Clinton, everyone should gang up on this guy for saying this....Is there tape of this guy saying it or just reporters noting that he said it?  A tape would have a backlash effect, imo, and maybe help Obama a little.

    If Clinton gangs up (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:39:07 PM EST
    then she will be accused of repeating the statement.  I think she should say it's inappropriate and offensive and move on. (And then watch the so-called progressive blogs attack her for not taking a stand.  You know, the way Obama did when Clinton was attacked and accused of prostituting her daughter.  Oh, wait...)

    I am very curious to see how Obama handles this.  These are the exact kind of attacks he'll be dealing with in the future (should he have one, which looks less and less likely from my house).  Because, let's be honest, this is the kind of crap the PACs and the 527s will put out.  If he shrugs it off, then it shows he might have learned something from his recent problems.  If he won't let it go, then he's just going to push the story out into another news cycle.

    Parent

    Do You Think So? (none / 0) (#60)
    by chrisvee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:02:59 PM EST
    Does there need to be that much political calculation behind the response?  Can't both campaigns just come out and say that there's no place for this type of remark in public discourse and then move on from it?

    Parent
    In a perfect world--yes (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:09:24 PM EST
    But we are not living in a perfect world.  This is big league politics, and a situation where a politician has attacked two other politicians.

    Look at what they did to Clinton on the Muslim question Steve Kroft kept slinging out.  Nothing that comes out of a politician's mouth has the luxury of being ignored.

    You know, now would've been the perfect time to use this slur as a conduit for talking about race in America.  Fighting this intrinsic sort of racism is the sort of thing that could pull folks together instead of tearing them apart.

    Parent

    Hmmm... (none / 0) (#83)
    by CST on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:13:38 PM EST
    My feeling is, if Clinton is asked a question, she should answer it responsibly.  If she isn't asked, she has no obligation to comment.  I don't think she needs to call out McCain's supporters for their behavior.  Likewise, if Obama isn't asked, he shouldn't have to comment about something someone else did to Clinton.  They should only have to comment if someone they are aligned with has said something offensive, or if they are asked a direct question.  Otherwise, it's kinda irrelevant.

    Parent
    That's how I feel. (none / 0) (#91)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:17:20 PM EST
    Let Obama handle the racism, and HRC handle the sexism.

    Parent
    if it was anyone other than (none / 0) (#195)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:16:17 AM EST
    someone who's obviously relished attacking clinton in unscrupulous ways (i.e., obama), then i'd say we should defend each other.  that's what real family do.  if it happens to mayor nutter, or stephanie tubbs-jones, for instance?  you can bet i'll be pissed as all hell about it.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#90)
    by chrisvee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:16:58 PM EST
    This is why I'm not a politician and I have to learn about them by reading blogs. :-)

    I'm just so disgusted by all the remarks that were reported from that little dinner.  I feel like I need to take a shower.

    Parent

    I think Clinton (none / 0) (#108)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:25:08 PM EST
    given her past, and the fact that she truly believe in dem ideals, will feel compelled to denounce the statement-not because it was made about Obama, but because it was made at all.  I think she should do this once and move on, but I definitely think she should do it.  As someone downthread said, we are democrats.  Or at least we used to be.  Speaking for myself, I am a human being on this planet and even though I have felt sorely maligned as a member of the female of the species of late, oftentimes from fellow dems, it is on my conscience that this is not about Obama or Clinton--it is about calling out racism and sexism.

    (and to answer the earlier question, the guy on the phone kind of sighed and pretended to be paying attention, but I could hear the phone ringing in the background.  I doubt very seriously he wrote anything down.)

    Parent

    IF you can not coment (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:39:13 PM EST
    on the subject of this post, then do not comment.

    that was on topic but nevermind (none / 0) (#26)
    by TalkRight on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:44:22 PM EST
    :)

    Parent
    ARG (none / 0) (#11)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:39:41 PM EST
    No, no, not the poll, the exclamation. Hey, maybe if more Republicans talk I will warm right up to Sen Obama.

    That is just disgraceful. Clueless.

    Someone tell him after the last Republican presidents finger on the button for eight years my cat could be considered qualified!

    Very Offensive (none / 0) (#16)
    by BDB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:41:41 PM EST
    But then look at the guy's name.

    TalkRight (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:43:30 PM EST
    you are suspended for the day.

    I have had to delete 3 of your posts in this thread.

    i think 2 not 3 but its ok (none / 0) (#30)
    by TalkRight on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:46:15 PM EST
    I thought they were on topic. and u r the boss !

    Parent
    I told you they were not (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:47:47 PM EST
    And you kept posting the same thing.

    Take the day off.

    Parent

    Completely offensive. (none / 0) (#31)
    by proudliberaldem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:46:16 PM EST


    More Of This Please (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:46:27 PM EST
    As vile as it is, it is good to see these creeps come out of their closets. Whether Obama or Clinton is the nominee this kind of overt racism or sexism will only help our candidate.

    That's what I was thinking (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by kayla on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:56:42 PM EST
    I may not like Obama, but I can't accept racist attacks against him.  The most ignorant and brainless thing anyone could do.

    Parent
    Some of the clinton supporters in this thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:54:38 PM EST
    should consider their attitudes here.

    I am rather disgusted by some of your comments to be honest.

    Hehn? (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:05:02 PM EST
    Seems to me that the Clinton folk are just as outraged about the insult as everyone else--even making phone calls, speaking for myself.  Am I reading it wrong?  Was someone deleted?

    Parent
    Not any of the Clinton supporters (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:15:57 PM EST
    I have seen on this blog.  I find it rather shocking.

    Parent
    maybe you cleaned up something I missed (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by RalphB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:07:50 PM EST
    but this Clinton supporter sees a couple of Republicans coming out of their shell.  One making a blatantly racist remark about Sen Obama while McConnell makes a rancid tasteless joke about Sen Clinton.  

    Both are comdemnable and should be now.


    Parent

    It's racist (none / 0) (#72)
    by miriam on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:09:45 PM EST
    But the sexist comment following it is just as egregious, if not more so, and will probably get no notice at all.  

    OTOH: I call every male I like "boy" from my creek's mallard drakes to my 40 year-old-son and Chinese son-in-law.  And I admit to thinking of Obama as a teenage boy which has nothing to do with his being bi-racial and everything to do with his naive confused arrogance. However, I am not a politician.    

    No, it's worse miriam. The Clinton comments (none / 0) (#82)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:13:22 PM EST
    were typical offensive Republican remarks, the Obama one is disgusting. Both are bad, but the boy one is worse.

    Parent
    I don't quite follow... (none / 0) (#104)
    by miriam on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:23:11 PM EST
    Both comments were stunningly typical offensive Republican remarks. But you may be more accustomed to hearing mysogynism than hearing racism so "boy" hits the ear with greater impact. Cable TV uses disgustingly sexist remarks all day everyday that impact 50% of the population, but thankfully we rarely hear blatant racism.

    Parent
    I agree with what you are saying but (none / 0) (#126)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:39:46 PM EST
    the Clinton slam was more directed at Bill, as bad as it was. The Obama comment was a direct shot at Obama himself.

    I am very disgusted with the treatment Hillary has received but I really do think this was worse. But they are both wrong and it wouldn't have hurt Josh to point them both out.

    Parent

    So, when Patterson (none / 0) (#131)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:45:33 PM EST
    the new mayor of NY, runs again, I guess it's okay to make jokes about how his wife cheated on him?

    "He can't keep his own house in order, how do you expect him to keep the mayor's house in order!"


    Parent

    No, not right at all. It is true (none / 0) (#152)
    by Teresa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:14:42 PM EST
    that men don't make fun of men who've been cheated on and they do women. I guess two wrongs don't make a right and I'm trying to bend over backwards to be fair to Obama because I don't like him very much.

    McConnell should have to apologize too, but I doubt if anyone will ask him to.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#159)
    by kayla on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:36:10 PM EST
    The comment about Bill and Hillary was wrong, because it was an insensitive attack on her personal life.  He made light of his adultery, which is an insult to both Hillary and Chelsea (and maybe Bill, too.  I don't know...), but what he said about Obama is flat out racist.  There is a history back to slave owners calling grown black men "boy" who's back and soul breaking labor was invaluble to southern econmic prosperity.  It's almost evil the history behind this.  Actually... it is evil.  Barack Obama is not my candidate but he is not a "boy", not mentally, not physically, and he currently has a hell of a lot more influence and power then this man will ever have.  

    He needs to get over it and show some respect to this "boy" and this woman "on the brink" because otherwise he's revealing himself to be a pathetic, hopeless, idiot.  

    Parent

    Geoff Davis (none / 0) (#74)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:10:33 PM EST
    A google search revealed Congressman Davis has also compared Obama and his message to "a snake oil salesman."  I have a harder time being offended by that one, but still... the guy sounds like a wingnut.

    I suspect the guy is a racist (none / 0) (#116)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:28:57 PM EST
    but the apology was not the "I'm sorry if you were offended" type of apology.  It was a REAL apology.

    Again, I'm not saying he's a good guy, but I think many politicians and media personnel could take a lesson from the formulation of the apology.  

    He hand carried (none / 0) (#123)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:34:06 PM EST
     the letter of apology, and asked for "forgiveness."

    Parent
    No, but it was one of the (none / 0) (#125)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:37:42 PM EST
    'I called you a bad name, but it in no way means I think you are that bad name' apologies.

    ...in no way reflects the personal and professional respect I have for you

    Oh really?

    Anwyay, up to Obama to accept or reject.  I hate the whole apology dance.

    Parent

    Something everyone can agree on, (none / 0) (#151)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:14:13 PM EST
    for a change.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't seem so (none / 0) (#183)
    by debrazza on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:20:44 PM EST
    A lot of people seem to want to blame Obama, his campaign or his supporters for this because they cried "wolf".  I think think those are dangerous comments, because no one deserves that kind of treatment, no matter what they have done.  And likewise for Sen. McConnell's comments.

    If the Obama campaign wants to make political hay out it, let them.  But that doesn't mean that I have to contextualize this within the context of the campaign myself.  Sadly, I don't think everyone would agree on that point.

    Parent

    debrazza, (none / 0) (#196)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:24:27 AM EST
    you have yet to decry anything demeaning said about hillary.  please stop--the double standard is seriously making my head reel.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#200)
    by debrazza on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:04:08 AM EST
    I don't blame you for your comment, but it not true.  I have posted a number of times in this thread calling McConnell's comments repugnant.  But I don't need to defend myself on that.

    My only point is that there are some events that happen outside the sphere of our current political situation that do not need to be considered in terms other than what they are.

    Both remarks are foul and repugnant and they would be equally so whether the victims where famous people or just ordinary folks like you and me.

    I just fear that everything is so much tilted towards a critical perspective about everything because of the campaign that an objective sense of progressivism is getting lost.  Because this is a site that has always had a keen focus on matters of criminal justice, I was just trying to remind people that the issue of blaming the victim should be something that people should be more acutely aware of.

    It is possible for us to promote our candidate and to do it the right way and that is the way I would like to do it?  And we should never blame victims, even if we don't personally like them.  These attitudes have commonly hurt victims of violent crime from getting justice, whether they are women or minorities.

    Parent

    A final comment from me: (none / 0) (#176)
    by Molly Pitcher on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 08:56:23 PM EST
    Did anybody remark that Davis' apology used the same phrasing as the apology about bitterness: ie, 'used the wrong words'?  Sorry I can't find the parent post to quote exactly; have looked several times.

    No, but I did note that he apologized (none / 0) (#184)
    by debrazza on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:23:28 PM EST
    for the wrong thing.  His apology was for "impugn[ing] you or your integrity".  How does that relate to calling someone a "boy"?

    Parent
    you're a better person than (none / 0) (#185)
    by kangeroo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:18:23 AM EST
    i am, BTD.  i'm so upset with obama that i almost passed on commenting, but you're right--this is unacceptable crap.

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