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Anybody Worried About Alienating Clinton Supporters?

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

Noam Schieber writes:

I'm . . . arguing that [Obama]'s almost certainly going to be the nominee, that that's not going to change even if Hillary spends the next several weeks unloading on him, that the only thing this course is going to affect are his chances in the general election, and that, even if Hillary did some how pummel him hard enough to wrest away the nomination, it would be close to worthless since she'd have generated so much ill-will toward her among Democrats.

(Emphasis supplied.) I have been completely amazed how little concern the "Creative Class" has shown towards the possibility of alienating Clinton supporters. Is anyone worried about how upset Clinton supporters will be if Clinton is viewed as having been pushed out of the race? If Florida and Michigan are not counted? If Obama and his supporters continually denigrate Hillary Clinton and the Clinton Legacy? Clearly Noam Scheiber does not give it a second thought.

I agree that Obama will be the nominee. And it is about time Obama AND his supporters start worrying about unifying the Party. The contempt for Clinton, for Bill Clinton and for her supporters is palpable from the "Creative Class" and the Obama campaign. Pretty soon, unless Obama and his supporters shape up, the question may be "is the nomination worthless to Barack Obama?"

< Susq. PA Poll: Close Race | Rasmussen: 56% Disagree With Obama's "Bitter" Remarks >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by phat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:15:14 PM EST
    I've been saying this for weeks now.

    Obama supporters don't seem to get the message.

    It's gotten very very old.

    But then, it'll all be Hillary's fault, no matter what.

    The only way Hillary (none / 0) (#17)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:26:07 PM EST
    doesn't get blamed is if she wins the whole enchilada.

    [ Parent ]
    They'd find a way to blame her even then. (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:28:08 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    They'll say if Obama had been the nominee (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:50:12 PM EST
    We would have picked up more House and Senate seats. Mark my words.

    [ Parent ]
    True Dat (none / 0) (#91)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:49:25 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Bush V. Gore, worry about the harm to Obama! (none / 0) (#65)
    by jerry on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:41:24 PM EST
    Didn't Scalia say in Bush V. Gore that the counting of votes that are of questionable legality does in my view irreparable harm to [Bush] by casting a cloud on what he claims to be the legitimacy of his election.

    Clintonistas are doing irreparable harm to the legitimacy of Obama!  It is in all of our interests then to disregard what this minority view of about 50% of the voters have to say.

    [ Parent ]

    Jerry.......... (none / 0) (#78)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:46:12 PM EST
    ...I almost had a knee jerk reaction to your post. Don't scare me like that.

    [ Parent ]
    I admit I was worried about getting called a troll (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by jerry on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:09:16 PM EST
    for that post.  Had to hope the sarcasm in it crept through the t00bs.

    [ Parent ]
    Hill's supporters are being treated as theYellow (none / 0) (#241)
    by jawbone on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 06:41:02 PM EST
    Dog Dems many of us are--it's assumed we'll "get over it" and work and vote for Obama.

    I will vote for the Dem candidate--as the altervative to so clearly so horrible.

    But I don't think all her supporters are Yellow Dog Dems....

    [ Parent ]

    Hillary's fault (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by TalkRight on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:16:50 PM EST
    it would be close to worthless since she'd have generated so much ill-will toward her among Democrats.

    I think this tells that the press is already framing Obama's defeat to be because of Hillary.. not because of HIS failure.

    Unlike (none / 0) (#7)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:20:00 PM EST
    the denizens of TalkLeft who claim that it is Obama's "fault" that Hillary is losing?

    [ Parent ]
    Umm, I think you have that wrong.... (4.83 / 6) (#31)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:30:07 PM EST
    ...some of us think that Hillary is losing because of media bias, others of us don't think she'd be losing if all the votes are counted. But most of us think the race is still close.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (none / 0) (#24)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:28:14 PM EST
    Well, he's currently beating her, so in that sense, it is his fault. :-)

    Look, both sides' supporters are guilty of this to some degree. And who knows, maybe many of those horrid comments and diaries on DK and other sites are written by closet Republicans trying to stir up trouble. They certainly sound like Republicans.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:47:06 PM EST
    Both sides are guilty of it.  Both sides seem willing to demonize the other person to justify their obnoxious comments.  

    That's the way it is.

    [ Parent ]

    Helped along by the internet don't you think? (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:59:01 PM EST
    Twenty years ago -- even ten years ago -- we couldn't anonymously throw bombs at each other. I've had very civil in-person conversations with Obama supporters. It's harder to remain civil online.

    [ Parent ]
    Absolutely true (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:24:08 PM EST
    People on the Internet have a tendency to say whatever they want without any concern for others.  

    [ Parent ]
    I've thought this myself! (none / 0) (#172)
    by badguppy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:37:22 PM EST
    I blame boring jobs!

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by Steve M on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:07:24 PM EST
    it is the job of the winning side to suck it up and do whatever it takes to bring the supporters of the losing candidate into the fold.

    Obama has been the overwhelming favorite for the nomination for a long time now, and his supporters still feel the need to call Hillary evil at every opportunity.  His campaign still does its best to demonize her,  There's really no sense to it, unless you think there's still serious doubt as to the nomination.

    [ Parent ]

    got a quote to cite for that opinion? (none / 0) (#30)
    by LHinSeattle on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:29:48 PM EST



    [ Parent ]
    But those supporters are just a lot of women... (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by esmense on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:18:31 PM EST
    and how important is what they think anyway?

    In fact, if this campaign undermines their faith in the Democratic party and the sincerity of its commitment to them and their issues, drives them away from the polls, or even out of the party entirely, so what? and good riddance.

    Democrats won't have to be embarassed anymore about being "the mommy party."

    esmense... (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:46:12 PM EST
    Indeed, I've already read lots of commentary on DKos, HuffPo, Booman Tribune, and elsewhere that it matters not if women and older people are alienated and driven away from the party since they can easily be 'replaced' by all the new, young, shiny recruits joining the party in order to vote for Obama.

    Such sensitivity is overwhelming, isn't it?

    [ Parent ]

    Hmmm (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:07:31 PM EST
    Better check what they're smoking these days. Considering that women comprise 56% of the democratic party, it's pretty unlikely that you'll win any elections without them. On top of that, when you add in the blue collar workers, the Latinos, the gays, you're not looking at much of a party. Dems can ill afford to lose any of us. But throwing out over half of the party would be suicidal. I know the Boi Blogz think they rule the party, but they've never especially had a clue about anything.


    [ Parent ]
    But, but!! (none / 0) (#242)
    by lansing quaker on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 06:48:31 PM EST
    They said all I had to do was Donate Now to Ned Lamont.

    [ Parent ]
    I've recently been doing a lot of research (5.00 / 1) (#219)
    by esmense on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:46:40 PM EST
    on the McGovern campaign. And you know that attitude that you have noted in today's bloggers was exactly what Gary Hart and McGovern supporters and strategists believed about labor in '72. Another belief they shared -- that political conditions were such, and the war and the party in power were so unpopular, that ANY Democrat was guaranteed to win the general election.

    But, oddly enough, all those young people and the Independents and Moderate Republicans (people George Meany called "$25,000 a year men") who McGovern had appealed to by lumping "Big Labor" together with "Big Business" and running against them as equal evils, who had provided McGovern with his primary victories (especially in those heavily Republican states West of the Mississippi), didn't show up for him in the fall.

    Nor did a lot of regular Democrats (or, if they did, they often didn't vote the top of the ticket).

    Most people don't realize it but Nixon's landslide victory didn't result for voter enthusiams for him -- but from Democratic apathy toward Mcgovern. The "guaranteed" Democratic victory slipped away in the face extremely low turnout.

    [ Parent ]

    That's interesting (5.00 / 1) (#228)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:04:43 PM EST
    You know far more than I or most here about these historical tidbits in the democratic party obviously.

    As disillusioned and depressed as I currently feel about this primary season and democratic party principles, there remains some detached interest in it, for my part, because of these historical issues. Maybe history does just repeat itself over and over again.

    [ Parent ]

    I appreciate this good research, but (none / 0) (#229)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:14:50 PM EST
    it falls short in supporting your conclusion because this ignores the impact of Watergate dirty tricks done throughout the campaign.  Even if not disclosed until afterward, that was the coverup that brought down Nixon.

    But the dirty tricks and much else -- do not get me started, as I was in the nooz biz then and dealing with the story daily and still have it memorized down to minor details! -- did an immeasurable amount to get him elected, in part by constantly screwing with the Democratic campaigns.

    [ Parent ]

    Cream City, I agree (none / 0) (#233)
    by esmense on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:50:40 PM EST
    that McGovern faced extremely aggressive political chicanery and extremely unfair, but also extremely effective, efforts to paint him in the worst (and a very unfair and untruthful) light, from the Nixon campaign.

    But I have no reason to believe the Republicans are going to be substantially more kindly toward Obama this time around. He won't be someone his mother would recognize by the time they get through with him.

    Remember, a lot of powerful interests are heavily invested in, and profiting greatly from, the current state of Republican rule. They are not going to let go of power without a very nasty fight.

    That's why Obama needs an energized Democratic party behind him. Not one, as in '72, in which too many traditional constituencies feel disrespected and alienated from the fight ahead.

    [ Parent ]

    I have to disagree on the comparison (none / 0) (#239)
    by tree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:37:56 PM EST
    Unfortunately I don't have much time to go into this now, but much of Meany's antipathy towards McGovern was due to McGovern's anti-Vietnam war stand. And Meany  was the one that determined that the AFL-CIO would sit out the election, over the objections of many of his fellow trade unionists.
    People tend to forget, but a large chunk of the union leadership was very hawkish back then.

     If you want to make comparisons, none are perfect but I think that "Clean Gene" McCarthy in 1968 is a more apt comparison.

    In 1972 the Nixon dirty tricks helped sabotage other Democratic candidates that were believed to by more formidable opponents for Nixon, such as Edmund Muskie. McGovern was seen as the successor to Robert Kennedy, but unfortunately, as much as he was a truly good and moral man, McGovern had no charisma whatsoever. Personally I think he would have been a good President. I'm not so sure about Obama. I know that Obama is much more of an old pol than McGovern ever was.

    [ Parent ]

    I think Boomer liberals, who were focused (none / 0) (#247)
    by esmense on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 08:32:26 PM EST
    almost exclusively on the war issue, tend to overlook the fact that McGovern ran as a "reform" candidate -- and part of the reform his movement was seeking was to lessen labor's power within the party, especially  "Big Labor"; the AFL-CIO. Now whether you thought that was a good thing or not most likely had a lot to do with whether you believed labor had done a lot of good or not and, most especially, whether you thought that it had been and was a good representative of your interests. My family was a labor family (my dad was an organizer during the depression). My father's anger at McGovern had nothing to do with the war, which he didn't support, or Wallace-type racial politics (which he abhorred). He saw quite clearly that McGovern's middle class and elite supporters (social but not economic liberals) were not supportive of labor and hoped to undermine its influence. I think history, the decline of labor and the party's increasing failure to support labor since the 1970s,  has proved him right. (Yet, you are correct; McGovern did enjoy some labor support)

    [ Parent ]
    You know what I find particularly disgusting (5.00 / 11) (#5)
    by frankly0 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:18:44 PM EST
    about the continuation of this attack of The Creative Class on the Clintons?

    That the things that are going to affect Obama the most in the general, the things that the Republicans will most certainly seize on, and use to the greatest impact, are things that are entirely of Obama's own making: his Jeremiah Wright connection, and Bitter-gate.

    Once upon a time, Obama supporters might have made a case -- which I also thought was mostly bogus -- that Hillary was doing Obama great and unjust damage over the CiC remarks, and the 3AM ad (though there too, Obama's willingness to jump into the Presidential race with his absurdly limited experience was also entirely of his own doing), but how, given the self-inflicted damage Obama has wrought of late, can they presume to continue to criticize Hillary as if she is the culpable one, and not Obama himself?

    The utter inability of Obama and The Creative Class to own up to any measure of responsibility for their own plight demonstrates just how entitled and spoiled they really are. They really do think that they can't be wrong or do wrong, and all criticism is unconscionable and an act of treachery.

    Don't you know...? (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:31:48 PM EST
    Clinton had a responsibility to defend Obama from criticism caused by his own missteps.  /snark

    Seriously though, after Wright I read several comments that the episode showed a problem with Clinton's character because she didn't stand up for Obama.  It's insane.

    [ Parent ]

    and the Is Obama a Christian thing! (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by jackyt on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:13:48 PM EST
    Hilary was roundly castigated because she didn't, quickly enough, vouch for Obama's religious conviction. How could asking her to quantify or qualify anyone else's religious beliefs ever be seen as a legitimate line of questioning? And we're supposed to believe she brings all the media snarls and snarks upon herself?

    [ Parent ]
    And what's worse, (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:34:35 PM EST
    she actually did say four times that he wasn't a Muslim. Her first response was "Of course not." The "as far as I know" was after she was asked the same thing four times, and was a nod to the fact that she was being asked to certify something that only Obama could definitely confirm.

    [ Parent ]
    FranklyO (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:41:04 PM EST
    I've read repeatedly that Hillary "ginned up" both the Wright and the "bitter" controversy.  He's supposed to be allowed to do whatever without anybody ever calling him to account, and Hillary is not permitted to do any campaigning of any kind.

    [ Parent ]
    It's an assumption (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Lahdee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:19:25 PM EST
    on their part that Clinton supporters will back a Democrat in the General. It's a lovely thought, but if they sit on their hands or withhold their money then McBush could prevail.
    Unity? Hard to see just now.

    And other (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:21:11 PM EST
    than allowing Hillary to become the nominee, what exactly do you propose Obama does to mollify the hurt feelings of Clinton supporters?

    [ Parent ]
    There's the challenge (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by Lahdee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:25:53 PM EST
    He wants to be a leader here's a perfect way to demonstrate it. We can't expect much healing now, there are primaries yet, but once the deal is done it's up to Obama to make the move. He must show leadership, he must find a way to heal the riffs, he must be the change.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, election theft hurts my feelings (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:32:49 PM EST
    Jeebus.

    [ Parent ]
    He won't change after the wedding (5.00 / 5) (#133)
    by goldberry on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:04:18 PM EST
    this is who he is.  He's a snobby junior senator without a record of accomplishments or a network of friends who he's worked with.  He's being propped up by party insiders who want an easy executive who they can call in their favors from.  He's vulnerable to GOP attacks and quite seriously, I have to wonder what everyone connected with Dean is smoking to want to ram him down our throats so badly that they will deliberately sabotage the party on his behalf.  If he gets the nomination, I gaurantee the media spin will be all about how baffling it is that the Democrats will once again fufill their death wish and nominate the wrong candidate.  Every accusation of sleazy politicians will be hurled at us.  They will have cut our throats by cutting out more than half of the electorate who voted for the other candidate.  Then, they have to sell the party and its nominal leader, to the swing voters while trying desperately to get the rest of us back.  
    It's going to be a disaster.  I can see it.  And the GOP doesn't even have to utter a negative word.  We will have done it to ourselves.  

    [ Parent ]
    Well, agreeing to seat the FL/MI (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:29:13 PM EST
    delegations would be a start.

    Putting out the word to the Boiz to quit bashing Hillary and her supporters would help.

    He could stop whining and blaming Hillary every time he makes a mistake.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:34:13 PM EST
    but that would require him to actually be the person he pretends to be.

    That would require him to campaign on issues, which he clearly has no desire to do, rather than trashing anyone and everyone who doesn't support him.

    However, if he did those things, and he becomes the nominee, I would be a lot happier to pull the lever for him in November.

    [ Parent ]

    Sounds good (none / 0) (#101)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:51:18 PM EST
    So when he agrees to seat them at the end of June you will be ok with him? Glad to hear it.

    [ Parent ]
    Seating the delegates (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:58:54 PM EST
    after he has stolen the nomination by not counting them?

    Nice try. And what about the other things he should do?

    [cricket cricket cricket]

    I'm not who you should be concerned with, by the way. I have never been one to not vote Democratic out of spite. I dislike Obama, but at the moment, I'm still willing to vote for him to stop McCain.

    However, we'll see what happens. If the party is idiotic enough to nominate him with all of these gaffes and bad associations surrounding him, I don't think my vote will matter. He will lose, and lose very, very big.

    [ Parent ]

    You forgot the /snark tag (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:59:40 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Sure, I'll be okay with it. (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:02:24 PM EST
    The convention isn't until August.

    [ Parent ]
    No, (5.00 / 2) (#205)
    by mm on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:14:14 PM EST
    It must be done now, when it can influence the final outcome, not after he's locked up the nominatin has been made.

    [ Parent ]
    "mollify the hurt feelings"? Oy. n/t (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:29:32 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    apologize for his attacks on her character (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:31:16 PM EST
    I admit choosing something he'd never do because elitists don't apologize.
    ;>

    [ Parent ]
    How about (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:31:26 PM EST
    dropping the condescending tone. that would be a good start I think.

    [ Parent ]
    I've said many times (5.00 / 15) (#45)
    by esmense on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:32:59 PM EST
    That he needed to take a strong stand against the over-the-top sexism demonstrated by the media and denounce the sexism demonstated by many of his supporters -- not to defend Clinton, but to defend women and make clear his commitment not only to their issues but to the principle of equal political participation and respresentation.

    If he had done so earlier, he would have put the nomination away.

    His failure to do so, and the worsening behavior of many of the party's establishment Old Bulls, has created a serious problem that will undermine the Democratic party well beyond this election.

    For many women, any notion that this party offers a superior commitment to women has been completely blown away.

    Now I not only think it is likely too late for Obama to repair the damage, but I also think he simply doesn't have the understanding of the issues involved, or. truthfully, enough respect for women and working class voters, to do so.

    [ Parent ]

    Agree (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by chrisvee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:45:58 PM EST
    Yes, he needed to come out sharply and critically against the sexism directed at Senator Clinton.  It would only have helped him.  Trying to do so at this point in time (or after the nomination is secured) is going to appear so transparent IMHO that it will just rub salt in the wounds.

    [ Parent ]
    I fail to see (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:54:56 PM EST
    how this is demonstrably different that Obama supporters complaining about race baiting in the campaign.

    It is not up to Obama to police the media.  

    Chris Matthews is not an Obama surrogate.

    If you want to be offended because Hillary isn't getting the nomination, that is your right.

    But I doubt there is anything Obama could have done, other than concede, that would have made you happy with him.  

    [ Parent ]

    It is up to Obama to stand up (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by esmense on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:05:06 PM EST
    for Democratic constituencies and for progressive principles. It is, in fact, the responsibility of ANYONE who claims to be a progressive or even just a Democrat.

    Do you understand the principles involved here?


    [ Parent ]

    Some of your points are valid (5.00 / 0) (#145)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:10:31 PM EST
    But then why go on commenting about the motives?

    [ Parent ]
    Obama could make a public statement (5.00 / 1) (#230)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:22:51 PM EST
    to his supporters, on blogs and not on blogs, to stop the misogynist attacks against Hillary. He won't, but he should. Of course, there are a lot of things he could do to make the discourse more civil, like watching what he says himself. He won't do that either.

    [ Parent ]
    I've said this before and I'll say it again.... (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:33:29 PM EST
    ...at the very least he should try.

    [ Parent ]
    He COULD... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Blue Jean on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:36:23 PM EST
    ...offer her the VP slot.  If she turns it down, he could offer important posts to some of her supporters.  At the very least, he could stop insulting the Clintons by running them together with Shrub I and Shrub II, as in the "Bush-Clinton-Bush".  He could praise the Clintons with some of that famed eloquence of his, while making it clear he is his own man, as in "The Bill Clinton Presidency was a time of great peace and prosperity, but that time is now past, etc."  And he could stop this  "If you don't want to vote for me, you're a racist." meme among his supporters, something which has hurt the Dem party in the primary and will hurt us even more in the general.

    That's some stuff he could do, but I doubt he will  do.

    [ Parent ]

    Nothing but the top spot will do (5.00 / 6) (#109)
    by goldberry on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:55:23 PM EST
    If I were her, I would not take a lateral position, especially if my boss needed me to train him to do his job.  It would be a thankless job where she would get no credit.  The women in this country will recognize it for what it is.  If she's not getting the top spot, she's better off in the senate where she can preserve her dignity.  And he can get all of his friends in the creative class to help him run the country.  

    [ Parent ]
    HRC taking the VP spot ... (5.00 / 4) (#156)
    by davnee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:23:00 PM EST
    ... gives me visions of Lily Tomlin in 9 to 5 when the guy she trained gets the promotion.  

    [ Parent ]
    Actually, there is almost nothing he could do (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by derridog on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:40:04 PM EST
    now to make me vote for him. I think he's an arrogant fraud who knows how to be charming and charismatic but cares nothing about the problems of this country. He just wants to be President for his ego and he'll throw all progressives under the bus once he gets in office, just like he tried to do with the 900 progressive delegates in California, before their protests drew attention and made him backtrack.  

    However, seating Florida and Michigan delegates and counting the votes of the 2.5 million people in those states in the primary race would go a long way towards making this race appear legitimate to all sides, not just the Obama voters.  Their view of fairness  is that anything else goes as long as it means their candidate wins.  The irrefutable fact is, that if  the primary process doesn't appear legitimate to everyone, Obama can kiss off the general election.

    [ Parent ]

    Too Late (5.00 / 7) (#62)
    by miriam on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:40:28 PM EST
    The attitude of Obama supporters and the egregious Clinton-bashing in which they've engaged will be remembered for a long, LONG time.  Too many of the leading establishment Democrats have been involved such as Kennedy, Kerry and Pelosi (whose states Clinton won). The deliberate action by the DNC, including outright Obama supporter Donna Brazile and the ineffectual Howard Dean, in disenfranchising millions of Florida and Michigan voters and thus severely handicapping Clinton's prospects, have made many like myself seriously reconsider allegiance to a Democratic party which no longer represents our more traditional Democratic values.

    Finally, there are those of us who truly and firmly believe that if nominated Obama will lose overwhelmingly in the general election. And very possibly lose Dems the Senate as well.  I will vote for Democrats at the local and state level; I will not, cannot vote for Obama in the general election and will leave the presidential slot vacant.  I very much doubt I will be alone.  

    Actions have consequences, something too many Obama enthusiasts  have either forgotten or have never learned.    

    [ Parent ]

    Your comment is exactly (5.00 / 5) (#163)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:30:56 PM EST
    why he WON'T get our votes.  You attempt to paint us as bratty children with no real beef. When in fact, it's your candidate and his supporters' brattiness at the audacity of Hillary not dropping out like a good little girl that's got you all riled up. Good luck. Because I don't see how he'll get ANY of Clinton's voters.

    [ Parent ]
    Ummm ok (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:44:40 PM EST
    I don't think that Clinton supporters on the whole are bratty children at all.  Everyone I have met seems very sincere.  

    However the online supporters are a different beast all together.  

    Look at your comment.  You start off with a "I know you are but what am I" response and then suggest that Obama won't get any Clinton voters to support him.  That is just downright silly.

    If having a tantrum is more important to you than preventing 4 more years of Bush Doctrine, then you are indeed being bratty.

    [ Parent ]

    Right. You say that in one (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:05:46 PM EST
    breath and deride us all in the next. You claim it's all about hurt feelings.

    It is not. I was more than happy to vote for him when this started. Then came the misogyny. Then came the sexism. Then came the attacks on the Clinton 90s (every day I hear another rehash of a Republican talking point...from OBAMA supporters and Obama himself), then came the calls for her to drop out. Then they came again. Then came the derisive comments about us for voting for her. Then came the claims that they're racists. Then came the calls for her to drop out.  And he thinks he'll just get our votes. That sealed the deal for me. He will not get my vote. He has yet to ask for it. And if he did now he wouldn't receive it.  He's done more damage to the Party than anyone in recent history.  That's why he won't get my vote. And you better believe if the DNC doesn't correct FL & MI, they will NEVER get my money or my vote again.

    [ Parent ]

    I see (none / 0) (#214)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:22:56 PM EST
    So it is Obama who has done all this stuff to her?  Huh.  

    It is amusing, in an ironic sort of way, to see someone get upset about the accusations of racism and in the same post decrying Obama for being a misogyny and sexism.    

    [ Parent ]

    Do you think (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by kenoshaMarge on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:34:02 PM EST
    that sounding so condescending helps in the whole unity shtick? Our hurt feelings? As if that's all we're about?

    Obama supporters will continue to insult Hillary supporters and that will, IMO, in the end, do him in. You just can't seem to help yourselves. Not really the actions of "winners" ,again, just IMO.

    [ Parent ]

    Then what is your (none / 0) (#184)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:48:37 PM EST
    outrage based on if not an emotional reaction to events that are not directly related to you?

    [ Parent ]
    what? (5.00 / 2) (#235)
    by echinopsia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:05:15 PM EST
    events that are not directly related to you?

    Whether the best candidate is nominated by the Democrats is not directly related to me?

    That's funny. I thought I was a voter and a U.S. citizen.

    [ Parent ]

    How about adopting the health care plan (none / 0) (#264)
    by splashy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:37:36 AM EST
    That she has put out? That would go a long way to mollify me!

    Actually AIM for universal health care, don't just yammer on about it without actually planning to do it. Be a leader on that, so we can STOP the deaths of thousands every year from lack of decent health care.

    That would work for me, maybe.

    [ Parent ]

    They count on us (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:22:11 PM EST
    responsible, concientious "old ladies" to do the right thing and vote for Obama.

    I'll do it, because McCain would be an unmitigated disaster on top of the current unmitigated disaster.

    But as a FL Dem I took pleasure in saying 'no' to the DNC fundraiser that called me over the weekend.  I told her why, and she did not seem suprised.  Guess she has heard it a lot.

    I had that pleasure... (5.00 / 0) (#58)
    by dianem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:40:08 PM EST
    ...about a month ago.  I told them that I was going to support Charlie Brown, but wasn't giving a penny to the DNC. They went on about how they needed money for competitive races throughout the nation, and I told them they could get money from Obama's supporter's.

    It wasn't as much fun as telling the Obama caller to stop calling my husband's cell phone, though. I was polite (I always am to solicitor's), but firm, and he didn't want to give up, even when I told him that my husband can't vote (he's not a citizen yet). I still don't know how they got that number - probably from Kerry donations. Sleazeball. I don't appreciate having our phone numbers sold or given out just because we made a donation.

    [ Parent ]

    I won't! (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by kenoshaMarge on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:36:07 PM EST
    I believe Obama would be an unmitigated disaster for the Democratic Party, for the Progressive Movement and for the country in general.

    He would make the years after the Carter Presidency look pleasant in comparison IMO.


    [ Parent ]

    Obama himself (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:24:12 PM EST
    signaled that it was okay to unload on HRC from the very beginning. "I'll get her supporters, but she may not get mine." That was the permission the Hillary Haters needed.

    BTD, I don't think Obama can get her supporters now, no matter what he does. He would have run a very different campaign if he had wanted unity within the Democratic Party.

    Perhaps HRC herself might be able to ameliorate the damage if she actively campaigns for him.

    That we're even worried... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:26:31 PM EST
    ...that in-party votes in the GE could be lost over this, well, it boggles the mind considering the administration we've suffered under for seven plus years now.

    oh for the photo-op handshake where Obama and clinton agree to fight as long as they feel they need to, but that in the end either will strongly support the other if their opponent prevails as nominee.  that it's really about defeating the republican nominee and reclaiming the white house for the good of the entire country.

    we should be well past that point by now.  

    It's normal though... (none / 0) (#197)
    by badguppy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:04:26 PM EST
    for there to be in-party vote loss in the General Election. McCain will have the same problem don't forget.

    Also this has been essentially a tie-game or else it would have been over by now normally.


    [ Parent ]

    Obama Doesn't Need Clinton's Voters (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by BDB on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:26:40 PM EST
    He's going to carry Colorado and Virginia.  He's expanding the electoral map!  Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Florida?  That's big state, pre-post-partisan thinking.  

    They should be worried (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by LHinSeattle on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:27:49 PM EST
    since despite Obama's "my people won't vote for her but hers will vote for me" belief, the polls are indicating just the opposite.

    They can come back with "hope you like McCain" all they want. I don't trust Obama to be much better. He speaks of wanting his foreign policy to be like the 1st Bush, and there's his Reagan admiration, promotion of coal and nuclear energy, and his bipartisan (i.e., spineless) ideals.

    Don't forget about the MI and FL vote-quashing.  And his supporters, who seem to take their strategy classes from the rightwing?  We'll be seeing their damage, I think, for a long time.

    "Change"?  Meet the new change, same as the old change....  Nah, a DINO with vitriolic supporters is not worth the effort of my vote any more.

    There is also health care (none / 0) (#265)
    by splashy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:05:00 AM EST
    Which will not change under Obama because he is NOT shooting for universal health care.

    Thousands will continue to die from lack of care if his plan goes into effect. He just doesn't care about actually making health care a reality for EVERYONE.

    [ Parent ]

    I'll vote for Obama, of course (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:30:45 PM EST
    1. But I won't work for Obama, because I won't forgive him for tarring the Clintons as racists, or for the grotesque misogyny of the OFB. (Has anybody thought that one consequence of the Obama Fellows program is that we're going to be subjected to this cr*p for the rest of our lives? Talk about fatigue...)

    2. I won't give Obama money, of course.

    3. I will work for universal health care and social security, and any legislators that support those policies.

    And if MI and Fl aren't re-enfranchised, or if a solution isn't arranged that credibly expresses the voice of the voters:

    1. I won't give any money to the DNC, and

    2. Will look to the Greens from here on out. Maybe something can be made of them. Enough is enough. A party that disenfranchises its own voters is dead on its feet anyhow.


    Absolutely! (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:45:34 PM EST
    definitely! NOT voting for Obama even if Hillary shows up at my door to ask me. I might even go to the polls and vote McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    Vote for the Dems! They're not socipaths! (5.00 / 2) (#221)
    by lambert on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:52:48 PM EST
    Look, not only does the Conservative leadership class torture poeple, they also kill and torture helpless animals. Heck, McCain's finance co-chair Fred Malek, helped kill and barbecue a dog, while drunk, in college. And I did plenty of stuff while drunk, in college, but never anything like that.

    And as [fill in the blank] as the Dems are, they really aren't sociopaths. So vote for Obama! But as far as putting any energy in? No. Can't do that. Sorry.

    [ Parent ]

    lambert, what gets under my skin is that (none / 0) (#250)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:00:58 PM EST
    i don't believe obama is genuinely a democrat.  the way he has conducted his campaign (from an ethical standpoint), the malleability of his policy stances and his website, his constant prevaricating and even pushing to the right--at a time when democrats finally have an opening to push to the left because the gop has screwed up royally...  those are just a few of the reasons i don't think obama is no democrat.  giving him power despite not being one only gives him impunity to push even further to the right.

    but then again, if hillary came to my door and asked me, i'd probably change my mind.  :)

    [ Parent ]

    sorry, meant to say: (none / 0) (#251)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:03:29 PM EST
    those are just a few of the reasons i think obama is no democrat.

    [ Parent ]
    give her a shot and a beer first though (none / 0) (#87)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:48:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Well Then (none / 0) (#137)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:05:48 PM EST
    If Obama is the nominee you can enjoy continuing blogging at Red State. Have fun!

    [ Parent ]
    Whoa (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by kenoshaMarge on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:45:50 PM EST
    Real "Progressive" of ya. Kinda like Bush in that if we ain't with ya, we're agin ya.

    I personally will not vote for Obama and I wouldn't ever vote for a Republican. My vote and my choice and not your place to tell me where to go.

    I've had enough of holding my nose and voting for some schmuck I don't like just because he's got a D after his name.

    I started by holding my nose and voting for Humphrey and  last held my nose and voted for Kerry although I loathed him. He wasn't much but anything was better than Bush. But when he refused to fight for every vote in Ohio I vowed no one would ever again "guilt" me into voting for someone unless I respected them and thought they would be a good president. Obama doesn't fill the requirements I set for myself.

    And conscience police like yourself don't help the cause you only make people angry and willing to dig in their heels. Some may still be more malleable than I if you don't honk them off too much in your self-righteous dudgeon.

    [ Parent ]

    Hahahahah (none / 0) (#215)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:23:53 PM EST
    Knickers in a twist? What outrage!

    It is just that posters like you and others who will vote for McCain, or stay home, will have a lot of time on your hands because the progressive blogoshpere will be supporting Obama, if he is the nominee.

    So my suggestion, to post at Red State et al, is more of a question as to what you all are going to do with your extra time since there will be no place for you in the progressive blogosphere to assuage your blogging habit.

    It would seem natural that you feed your addiction, hobby or however you characterize it with continuing to bash Obama in the only place left to do it in: Right Wing blogs.

    It is hilarious that you and obamaniacs have generated so much frenzied hate over one of two almost identical candidates. Must be the kool aid, because there is no other rational explanation I can think of.  

    [ Parent ]

    For the win? (5.00 / 1) (#245)
    by lansing quaker on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:11:24 PM EST
    Comments like these want me to buy one of those "SNOB" t-shirts Michelle Malkin is peddling.  Michelle Malkin!  Augh.

    And I really, really, loathe Republicans.

    [ Parent ]

    Go For It (none / 0) (#262)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:21:42 AM EST
    You can tell your grandchildren about how your vote helped void the constitution via SCOTUS.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm gay. (none / 0) (#268)
    by lansing quaker on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:55:41 AM EST
    Grandchildren aren't quite on the radar.

    [ Parent ]
    Wow (none / 0) (#269)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:55:52 PM EST
    So you don't care about abortion rights, because you are not having children? I do not believe that for a second.

    [ Parent ]
    Felizarte, I'm with you. (none / 0) (#185)
    by MMW on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:50:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Here's an existential moment for you: (5.00 / 8) (#40)
    by Andre on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:31:41 PM EST
    There isn't a chance in the world of Obama winning the election.  He has so many weaknesses that the Repugs and their allies are going to tear him apart.  He doesn't have a clue.  His followers in the left blogosphere should have a clue, but they've 'been kidnapped'.  Just the unanswered questions about Obama's twenty year's listening to Rev Wright are going to sink him, and it will not be because of alienated Clinton supporters, but those independents and disaffected Republicans he's so desperately trying to get.  Do you think that the electorate is going to put a country of 3 hundred million in the hands of a junior senator who has not record on anything?  Get real!  The only chance we have of winning is Hillary.  It's so obvious that it hits you in the face.

    Obama supporters absolutely disagree (5.00 / 0) (#161)
    by waldenpond on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:27:52 PM EST
    They feel he has responded well to Wright.  They do not think Michelle's videotaped comments are relevant.  They think Obama was correct in his statements about small town people and that his successive statements explained WORM.  They feel that if any of this comes up in the GE, that he has sufficiently addressed it all in the primary and has been vetted by Clinton.  

    Finally, they believe there is no way people are going to vote Republican.  (That last item is the only one I could agree with as we usually do flip parties.) I happen to disagee with the theory that Repubs have no chance because primary turnout wasn't that bad and they weren't even motivated yet.

    [ Parent ]

    Nope. He can't win now. (5.00 / 7) (#48)
    by goldberry on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:35:04 PM EST
    Sorry, BTD, this is going to come down to superdelegates and Hillary has every reason to believe that she can win.  There are tons of voters out there, more delegates and MI and FL.  
    Scheiber should worry about Clinton supporters.  We do not accept Obama's fait acompli.  No, not at all.  And many of us will not consider him a legitimate candidate if he keeps obstructing FL and MI so they, and by extension all of the other Clinton states, don't count.  
    In fact, these ridiculous demands that Hillary step aside are getting to be trite and meaningless.  She's not getting out.  We won't let her.  And the superdelegates better wake up and smell the coffee.  If this is settled in a way where Obama wins it without MI and FL, prepare for a loss in November.  Even if Clinton orders us to vote for Obama, I'm not sure the rest of us can comply.  We'll try but revulsion may be too strong.  The down ticket candidates may do OK but Obama himself?  I wouldn't count on it.  
    Now, if that's what you mean by more electable, I have a bridge to sell you.  

    MSNBC trotted out (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by waldenpond on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:34:16 PM EST
    another talking head to do it again.  Apparently they are tearing each other apart (gasp) and the superdeez need to step in (gasp).  'This' situation is making it more urgent (gasp).  They need to step in after Penn (gasp).  waaaaahhhh  pfft.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, now is definitely the time to worry... (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by thinkingfella on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:40:15 PM EST
    about unity. And I think the point about concern for what Clinton supporters think is a point that is well made, well said, and absolutely should be on the top of everyone's mind that is horrified by the thought of a McCain presidency.

    I think you underestimate what a pickle Obama is in however, and it underscores the difficulty in finding a sane ending to all of this. You suggest that Obama should refrain from attacking Hillary, but unilaterally disarming in the face of Hillary's attacks would have their own blowback in the general election in terms of making him look weak and unable to stand up for himself.

    By saying that Obama will be the nominee, you are strongly implying that HRC's current run is in vain and offers little to gain for all concerned, since she has, in your opinion, already lost. Asking Obama to unilaterally disarm is therefore an odd stance to take. Usually the loser in a battle is the one who disarms, not the victor. And one would think that, given this opinion, you would be calling on Hillary to disarm, not Obama. I assume (perhaps wrongly?) that if she would stop attacking him, then he would no longer feel the need to attack her back, since it seems to me that most of his jabs have been in response to hers.

    Again, I'm an Edwards supporter and don't have a dog in this fight. I just want a Democrat to win, and I'm deeply dismayed to see the level of infighting we are having at this late stage, with people threatening to vote for McCain, withhold their vote, and other such self destructive nonsense.

    Just because I think it (none / 0) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:52:46 PM EST
    does not mean it is so. I can wait for the voters to prove me right or wrong.

    [ Parent ]
    telling clinton to disarm first would (none / 0) (#252)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:13:23 PM EST
    be like telling the u.s. to back off after pearl harbor.  i place the overwhelming majority of blame for both the initiation and the aggravation of conflict in this dem primary at obama's feet.  no way in heck is he getting rewarded for the crap he's pulled--he's conducted this campaign unethically.  i'm sorry, but i'm disgusted.  he needs to get out.

    [ Parent ]
    What? Me worry? (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by ding7777 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:41:07 PM EST
    I'm clinging to Hillary 'til the bitter end with the hope Obama will unite us

    Okie-Doke?

    it is totally foolish of the democratic (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by athyrio on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:45:13 PM EST
    party to nominate someone that has so many issues for the general...I don't get it....this article about Michele is telling about the elitist attitude for me at least....

    Who does she think she is? Annie Oakley? (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by TalkRight on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:47:53 PM EST
    Letter to Obama by an 33 year old African American woman

    Dear Senator Obama:

    My name is Chastity and I'm a 33-year-old African-American woman. I was deeply saddened and disturbed by your comments about Senator Clinton. A woman has a right to defend the 2nd amendment without condescending comparisons that represent your lack of knowledge in regards to the women's suffrage plight.

    "Who does she think she is? Annie Oakley?"

    I want to answer that question. If you are asking if Senator Clinton is similar to Ms. Oakley in her amazing talent and timely rise to fame which propelled her to become the first American female superstar, then I agree with that depiction.

    I must tell you I am deeply offended that you find it humorous that she would defend the right of men or women to bear arms. If it were not for the media's disdain for Senator Clinton, your not-so-humorous comments would be put in their appropriate context.

    You expressed regret in regards to your wording of the "bitterness" of small town citizen's economic struggles but, the next day, you disparaged Senator Clinton regarding her defense of constitutional freedoms. I am appalled by the media's lack of outrage. (Women everywhere should also be outraged!)

    Senator McCain also referred to your comments as elitism and out-of-touch. So does that mean he's the Lone Ranger?

    It is also fair to note you did not make any jokes at Senator McCain's expense.

    In a time when we have the possibility of an African-American or female president, to have one of the candidates publicly demean another candidate is unacceptable. I implore you to not only apologize publicly to Senator Clinton but to educate yourself on Ms. Oakley's contributions to society. She broke stereotypes, and she engaged in extensive, albeit quiet, philanthropy for women's rights and other causes.

    "Shame on you." "You should know" that using humor as a vehicle to degrade someone that expressed justified concern about your misrepresentation of small town America as "bitter" -- instead of "ungratified" -- only antagonizes the up-hill battle that women face in the fight for equality.

    If elected president, you will not only represent the ungratified small towns, but you will also represent Senator Clinton and her right to protect unalienable rights. To mock her remarks because your statements were "self admittedly inappropriate" is wrong.

    You are displaying an antipathy for someone who represents thousands of American women who have been disparaged for centuries. And you abet the continued inappropriate characterization that woman cannot lead a country or defend a nation.

    As an African-American, I am "very proud" to have someone of your caliber representing us in the presidential race, but as a woman I am "equally proud" of Senator Clinton for the same reason.

    There is nothing funny about that!

    Sincerely,

    Chastity from Texas

    I think we're beyond "alienating" (5.00 / 7) (#85)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:48:09 PM EST
    and all the way to "alienated;" for many, the process is complete, and I doubt if it's coming back.

    The next group he has to worry about are the undecideds and independents who are looking for reasons to be tipped either into the Hillary camp or over to McCain.  And no, this is not like "cow tipping."

    Then there are the "Dems for a Day;" how many of them who voted for Obama in a primary or caucused for him, are now thinking, "hmmm, I knew there was s reason I voted Republican all these years - see ya, Barack!"

    I don't see any guarantee that if Obama wins the nomination, he can win the general, national polls notwithstanding; he has spent far too much time with one foot or the other in his mouth of late, and there is no way these things are not going to hurt him in November.

    I do not trust him.  Period.  And I know many others who feel the same way.  I do not trust the Blue Dogs like McCaskill and Casey and others like them, nor do I take comfort in the Austan Goolsbee-types.  He's all over the place on too many issues, I