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The Big Problem With "Bittergate" Was Not The "Bitter"

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:39:15 AM EST
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By Big Tent Democrat

At TAPPED, the "Creative Class" defense of Obama's gaffe continues (psst, citing Harvard intellectual Robert Reich is not the answer either):

[A] salient quote from Bill Clinton's My Life:

If [Republicans] could cut funding for Medicare, Medicaid, education, and the environment, middle-class Americans would see fewer benefits from their tax dollars, feel more resentful paying taxes, and become even more receptive to their appeals for tax cuts and their strategy of waging campaigns on divisive social and cultural issues like abortion, gay rights, and guns.

The "Creative Class" reaction? "I do think Obama's words were poorly chosen, but I don't think they merit "Bittergate" as we're seeing it play out." Um, what part of Obama's Gaffe is left out? This:

So it's not surprising then that they [rural voters] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

(Emphasis supplied.) Time for the "Creative Class" to give this up. It was a gaffe. Obama has expressed regret. Time to try and move on.

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    The Big Problem With "Bittergate" Was Not The "Bitter" | 220 comments (220 topical)

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    I agree, every minute they continue to try to spin (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by doyenne49 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:44:10 AM EST
    this is a disaster for Obama and his people. He tried to claim last night that he wasn't saying religion was a crutch for people in hard times, an illusion they cling to, but rather a bulwark of support and comfort. He claimed he was praising faith. But he listed religion along with anti-immigrant sentiment and racist/xenophobic antipathy. Is he going to try to claim that these too are positive sources of value and support in hard-pressed people's lives. He's already shot his right foot off. Probably best to lick his wounds rather than try for the left as well.

    McCain is hitting him on this now... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:45:38 AM EST
    ...and he is hitting on preciselly the points BTD brings up...religion and guns.

    [ Parent ]
    I think McCain (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:54:29 AM EST
    did a good job and gave a lot of context.  I wish Clinton would say Obama was trying to explain why people are not voting for him...that context is so important.

    [ Parent ]
    McCain being so hard on this (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:01:55 AM EST
    gives us a glimpse of what an Obama/McCain ge would look like, and it ain't pretty.  I think this could destroy BTD's media darling electability argument.  If they can trash him on something like this, imagine what they'll do with Wright and O's (now oft repeated) "I lived in Indonesia for four years as a child, so I have more FP than McCain or Clinton" statement.

    The one thing Clinton has shown us again and again is that she always comes back--and comes back stronger.

    [ Parent ]

    please... (none / 0) (#76)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:19:45 AM EST
    O's (now oft repeated) "I lived in Indonesia for four years as a child, so I have more FP than McCain or Clinton" statement.

    could you please at least say what Obama said correctly.  it is utter fabrication... he said this:

    "It's ironic because this is supposedly the place where experience is most needed to be Commander-in-Chief. Experience in Washington is not knowledge of the world. This I know. When Senator Clinton brags 'I've met leaders from eighty countries'--I know what those trips are like! I've been on them. You go from the airport to the embassy. There's a group of children who do native dance. You meet with the CIA station chief and the embassy and they give you a briefing. You go take a tour of a plant that [with] the assistance of USAID has started something. And then--you go."

    "You do that in eighty countries--you don't know those eighty countries. So when I speak about having lived in Indonesia for four years, having family that is impoverished in small villages in Africa--knowing the leaders is not important--what I know is the people."

    Don't keep mis characterizing each statement.  that is exactly what the other team does so often and what is so troubling w/ our political rhetoric.  

    [ Parent ]

    "knowledge of the world" (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:30:44 AM EST
    My argument with this is that he is saying a child, a male child that is, the Obama male child, has more knowledge of the world than an adult woman, who spent 8 years being the ambassador for the US as first lady.  Once again, it's beyond words how this is translated to credentials for the presidency.  How does one's impoverished family make you qualified to handle foreign policy?  First of all his family may not live in a Chicago mansion, they may not have the first world material goods, but I would not call proud people impoverished.  

    The guy has problems with language.  All this great orator and uniter mean nothing to me when I see his language only united the creative class with AA.  His exploitation of the AA vote is being discussed extensively in the left leaning AA blogs.  

    His campaign is founded on first of all tearing down.  So stop with the false aura of this man as well.  

    [ Parent ]

    problems w/ language. (none / 0) (#121)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:40:43 AM EST
    you guys contradict yourself all the time.  i thought he was all language.  that is ALL this site discusses.  not his policies (b/c i'm guessing you like a lot of them) but a potential gaffe or misspeak or whatever.  long gone are the days where elevating the discussion was a priority.  its all about the Clinton team... and you want so badly for her to win (which she won't).  

    objectively, it is desperate and comes through again and again in the comments here.  it is indicative of the campaign she is running.  anything and everything.  she has no message so she hopes to tear down.  and so you follow.

    [ Parent ]

    Who is desperate? Let's AgreetoDisagree (none / 0) (#129)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:43:44 AM EST
    on that one.
    Your victory lap is long and bitter, fellow.
    Chill.

    [ Parent ]
    "she hopes to tear down" (none / 0) (#135)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:46:22 AM EST
    Your language, again.  Language is his weapon.  And he is not good at it unless he has the cadre of speech writers and advisers.  This is not a contradiction, I am saying, his one advantage, language and he is proving to not be good at.  

    If I am desperate, it's because I think he is a disaster.  

    Please explain his FP experience, living as a child somewhere, vs. 8 years of an adult woman's experience as first lady?  

    [ Parent ]

    I know.. what he actually said (none / 0) (#82)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:23:03 AM EST
    is so much more embarrassing.


    [ Parent ]
    factual is now (none / 0) (#91)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:27:35 AM EST
    embarrassing apparently.  nice.  yes, he left out the sniper fire, but the rest is close to dead on.

    [ Parent ]
    Okay so he knows the people of... (none / 0) (#148)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:52:35 AM EST
    ...Kenya and Indonesia. That's giving him the benefit of the doubt. But what I found troubling is the way he characterizes these trips. It tells me that he blows them off! I don't know how else American politicians are supposed to get an experience of other countries. Do we now expect them all to live abroad or have relatives abroad, but not to actually study, take advantage of meeting world leaders, and learning from diplomatic travels?

    [ Parent ]
    He may be able to create (none / 0) (#193)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:31:50 AM EST
    the impression that "he knows the people" of Kenya and Indonesia. Kenya has many tribes and languages represented.  Indonesia is even more diverse with over one hundred languages spoken in the archipelago.  Obama has never mentioned if he spoke a single Indonesian or Kenyan language.  I doubt that he was ever a "street urchin" in Indonesia.  American nationals, in whatever country they are where English is not spoken, generally stay in American or English enclaves because it is more convenient and safer for them.  I suspect that this was the case with his stepfather who was an oil company executive.

    I do not know if he stayed in Kenya long enough to converse in one of the languages there.

    So in this particular instance, he was trying to pass off a-not-so-easily verifiable-untruth.  He is really telling such tall tales.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe for Obama (none / 0) (#158)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:56:18 AM EST
    Maybe his overseas trips aren't very instructive.  But I'm betting other members of Congress are able to get more out of them.  And if they are so useless, I would ask obama why he wasted taxpayer money taking them.

    [ Parent ]
    Quoting the actual statement (none / 0) (#89)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:26:31 AM EST
    Does not help your case. I agree we should be accurate. But, seriously, his statement is ridiculous on its face.

    A meme that will emerge soon: Obama thinks he's more qualified than everyone on everything, despite evidence to the contrary. He's said several times a version of "No one has done more for XYZ than I have." I predict this will become a parody soon. He needs to be a smarter politician if he is going to be the standard-bearer in November. Leaving behind the SF comments is a good start but he's got a lot of work to do to make himself electable.

    [ Parent ]

    No one has given the Republicans (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:28:45 AM EST
    more ammunition against Obama for the fall than Obama himself.

    [ Parent ]
    Um (none / 0) (#92)
    by Steve M on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:28:22 AM EST
    He's said he's confident that he understands the world better than Clinton or McCain.  He's also said his strongest experience in foreign relations is living overseas for four years as a child.  You may wish he had said these things differently, but he said them.

    [ Parent ]
    Spoken by someone who truly (none / 0) (#194)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:35:01 AM EST
    does not know what he is talking about.  Sorry Mr. Obama, I can confidently say that I know more about U.S. foreign policy than you.

    [ Parent ]
    You missed part of the quote (none / 0) (#130)
    by cmugirl on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:44:08 AM EST
    Here's the rest of it where he says he knows more than McCain or Clinton.

    "I would like somebody who knows about a bunch of stuff that I'm not as expert on," he replied. "I think a lot of people assume that might be some kind of military thing to make me look more commander-in-chief-like. Ironically, this is an area -- foreign policy is the area where I am probably most confident that I know more and understand the world better than Senator Clinton or Senator McCain." (Emphasis mine).

    [ Parent ]

    Now... (none / 0) (#137)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:47:49 AM EST
    If words are his advantage, how is this kind of speech, which he does often, exemplify his superiority?  

    [ Parent ]
    i hope he's most confident. (none / 0) (#144)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:50:01 AM EST
    and i hope Clinton and McCain are too for heaven's sake.  one of them will be running the free world...

    [ Parent ]
    If he doesn't understand PA (none / 0) (#202)
    by tree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:13:48 PM EST
    why should we believe he understands Indonesia or Kenya or Pakistan or any other foreign coountry? He spent about the same time in Pakistan twenty odd years ago that he spent in PA these last few weeks and now he's claiming Pakistan is one of the places he "understands".  

    foreign policy is the area where I am probably most confident that I know more and understand the world better than Senator Clinton or Senator McCain."
    .... understanding Pennsylvania? Not so much.

    [ Parent ]
    Please yourself (none / 0) (#168)
    by standingup on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:02:22 AM EST
    Selective use of quotes is no better either.  Here is the portion you omitted and a link to the source too.

    "I would like somebody who knows about a bunch of stuff that I'm not as expert on," he said, and then he was off and running. "I think a lot of people assume that might be some sort of military thing to make me look more Commander-in-Chief-like. Ironically, this is an area--foreign policy is the area where I am probably most confident that I know more and understand the world better than Senator Clinton or Senator McCain."

    "It's ironic because this is supposedly the place where experience is most needed to be Commander-in-Chief. Experience in Washington is not knowledge of the world. This I know. When Senator Clinton brags 'I've met leaders from eighty countries'--I know what those trips are like! I've been on them. You go from the airport to the embassy. There's a group of children who do native dance. You meet with the CIA station chief and the embassy and they give you a briefing. You go take a tour of a plant that [with] the assistance of USAID has started something. And then--you go."
    ...



    [ Parent ]
    thx. (none / 0) (#174)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:04:48 AM EST
    i should have posted a link.  i like the whole thing better.

    [ Parent ]
    And Obama is moving on from it (none / 0) (#218)
    by Alien Abductee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:59:14 PM EST
    and pivoting to the economic point he was making in the first place, using it to hit McCain. (no link for you, but go to the Wash Times if you want it):

    "Senator McCain and the Republicans in Washington are already looking ahead to the fall and have decided that they plan on using my comments to argue that I'm out of touch with what's going on in the lives of working Americans," he said. "I don't blame them for this -- that's the nature of our political culture, and if I had to carry the banner for eight years of George Bush's failures, I'd be looking for something else to talk about too."

    "If John McCain wants to turn this election into a contest about which party is out of touch with the struggles and hopes of working America, that's a debate I'm happy to have," he said. "I may have made a mistake last week in the words that I chose, but the other party has made a much more damaging mistake in the failed policies they've chosen and the bankrupt philosophy that they've embraced for the last three decades."

    He's also defusing 'bitter' by using it to joke self-deprecatingly with reporters:

    Mr. Obama, who praised several AP reporters that cover his campaign by name in his opening remarks, also quipped he'd "kept a lot of you guys busy this weekend with the comments I made last week."

    "Some of you might even be a little bitter about that," he said, getting a few laughs.

    He's not going to let the distortions of his opponents - either of them - push him off his message.

    [ Parent ]

    I think that arrogance (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:50:07 AM EST
    has deprived him of humor to laugh off a mistake such as this.  I don't think he can appreciate a joke when it is on him. Maybe he has become too full of himself.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Is Spoiled (none / 0) (#156)
    by Athena on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:54:39 AM EST
    24/7 adulation has turned Obama into a spoiled brat who can't believe that some people won't vote for him - the "clinging" types - or some candidates won't go away - Hillary.

    His inability to accept "non-believers" - I mean those who don't believe in him - is not an attractive trait, and reveals a rather frail ego that will lash out when threatened.

    The months of idolatry have made him an incredibly weakened candidate.

    [ Parent ]

    Yet another example. . . (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:46:08 AM EST
    Time for the "Creative Class" to give this up. It was a gaffe. Obama has expressed regret.

    of how Obama is a far better politician than the bulk of the his fan base.

    Last night's performance (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:49:37 AM EST
    did not show much evidence of that. He performed WORM for himself.

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't see the performance but. . . (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:55:30 AM EST
    even when Obama does poorly he's still a better politician than his fan base.  Even if he were to eat a baby instead of kissing it he'd still be a better politician than his fan base.  This is not meant as a statement about Obama. . .

    [ Parent ]
    Made me chuckle n/t (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Faust on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:02:37 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    whats the point... (none / 0) (#36)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:03:36 AM EST
    of saying this? or saying this that way?  please delete.

    [ Parent ]
    Why? (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:09:47 AM EST
    Larry is basically making my point.

    [ Parent ]
    if he'd eat a baby (none / 0) (#60)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:12:34 AM EST
    instead of kissing it, he'd still be better than his support. ??? what?  so his support is... serious?

    [ Parent ]
    That offended you? (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:32:12 AM EST
    Did you think Larry meant that literally? Come now.

    [ Parent ]
    no i don't. (1.00 / 0) (#125)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:42:10 AM EST
    although i don't know larry.  but i could think of quite possibly a million other analogies that would be more appropriate.  but whatever. we'll move on. thx

    [ Parent ]
    Let me guess. (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:41:10 AM EST
    You think Jon Stewart is a television news anchor, right?

    It was a joke, intended to demonstrate, through the use of hyperbole, the great naiveté of many Obama supporters.

    [ Parent ]

    The point is. . . (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:16:04 AM EST
    first off, to maintain a place of political sanity in the leftosphere where people can realistically talk about real-world politics instead of engaging in "your candidate sucks, mine is great" childishness.

    And furthermore to remind ourselves that drawn out defense of any candidate for a silly gaffe is itself self-defeating.  Obama understands that the sooner he gets this stupid (if largely true) statement off the table the less damage he'll suffer.  People who keep it alive by trying to justify it may think they're helping Obama but they're not.  He knows that because he's a politician rather than a naive political fan.

    If he's seen the movie, Obama probably feels like quoting Max Bialystock from the trial scene in the Producers when confronted with some of his more ardent (and less savvy) fans -- Leo, don't help me.

    [ Parent ]

    Yep (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:07:53 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I disagree that it is "time to move on" (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by kenosharick on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:49:15 AM EST
    When there is a gaffee from someone in the Clinton campaign (not Hillary) it is headline news for weeks. Of course, Barack has changed the whole story into something about"tradition" just as he succeeded in changing the rev. wright story- wih a BIG assist from the media ,of course.

    It's time to move on... (none / 0) (#64)
    by Faust on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:13:14 AM EST
    For Obama supporters with a clue. That's BTDs point. Obviously if you're an Obama hater you'll want to pick up as much mud as you can and start throwing.

    [ Parent ]
    "Obama hater?" (none / 0) (#222)
    by kenosharick on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:37:30 PM EST
    Most of the viciouness and hatred comes from Barack supporters directed at Hillary or anyone who would dare support her. I was chased off of my favorite blog because I would not drink the kool-aid.

    [ Parent ]
    the 'creative class' isn't backing down... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by white n az on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:50:02 AM EST
    Obama isn't backing down and this is gonna stay in the news cycle for quite some time.

    I think someone hit on it last night...That it's simply not in Obama's constitution to back down, for anything or for anyone.

    As to the strengths and weaknesses of that posture, it's up to everyone's own analysis but it's clear that it's not going away unless/until polling suggests a trend is developing which may not be until PA votes.

    The amusing thing is if Obama loses by PA by 12% or more, the media is going to point to this when it's unclear that he wouldn't have lost by the same margin without this controversy.

    He (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by nell on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:54:35 AM EST
    won't back down when his ego is on the line, but don't expect him to go to the mat for silly things like health care, or the choice rights, or gay rights, etc. It's just when the controversy is about HIM that he suddenly becomes a fighter.

    [ Parent ]
    Strawman (none / 0) (#207)
    by gaf on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:51:11 PM EST
    The Obama friendly media is creating a strawman argument & demolishing it.


    [ Parent ]
    Obama is going all out with (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:51:06 AM EST
    personal attacks on Hillary now. He's hitting her for having a shot and a beer now.
    Anything to help Hillary win is fair game, as far as I am concerned.


    I think that arrogance (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:58:34 AM EST
    it is frustrating for him to see Hillary still standing and at ease with the "bitter" class that might just put her over the top.  It seems he has lost his sense of humor and goodwill. It is now a real source of angst for him and his supporters.  As long as Hillary is in the race, there is always the possibility she might be able to pull off an eventual victory.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama bowling (none / 0) (#191)
    by jeffhas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:25:54 AM EST
    I love that he criticizes Hillary for taking shots, but forgets he was in a sports bar and went bowling  for the middle class vote...

    [ Parent ]
    Obama is going all out on this (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by delacarpa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:06:31 AM EST
    So let him go all out on this,

    Where is his unity, where is his change for America, where is his hope for America and running a different kind of campaign. It goes to show he is a politican and not a change maker. Needed to apolize to middle American and hasn't and won't. Guess his bus tour wasn't so eventful and he is bitter.

    [ Parent ]

    quite hard to unite people (none / 0) (#59)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:11:19 AM EST
    who are methodically trying to pin anything and everything on him.  obvious he has to fight this one a bit.  he said he regretted how he said it but said  that his point was that there are many people (in my town and state) who have become bitter about govt and their promises and have clung/gravitated/whatever towards social issues including guns,god,gays, etc.   fact.

    [ Parent ]
    The only fact is that you continue (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:16:08 AM EST
    to insult people's intelligence by stating your opinion as fact.
    What Obama said was not just impolitic, it was incoherent and wrong. Obama is not much of a thinker, from what I can see---very glib and superficial.

    [ Parent ]
    Gravitated (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:17:26 AM EST
    Is the nicest predicate to use there.

    But it's not a fact.

    Again, as I pointed out elsewhere.  The social issues listed above would be just as important EVEN IF government was functioning for them.

    That's what you don't understand.

    It's NOT a product of their economic situation.

    It's a product of the values that is handed down to them from their families.

    Again.  If everyone in America had 200k/year jobs, they'd still have the Values they have.

    That is the fundamental misunderstanding and the hallmark of elitism is to make this misunderstanding.

    [ Parent ]

    And I say, (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:24:22 AM EST
    How can Obama unite the people he keeps insulting?  The only way to stop this particular topic is for Obama to simply say, I made a mistake, I'm sorry, didn't mean it that way. . . "

    Instead, he, and his supporters keep trying to defend his statements.  I shudder at the kinds of statements he will make once he becomes the nominee and continue the string of democratic losing after Kerry.  Gore's case is different.

    [ Parent ]

    Don't forget bigotry! (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by davnee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:25:21 AM EST
    Small towners "gravitate" to racism too during hard times according to our wannabe sociologist-in-chief.  Now if you accept Obama's characterization of his own words, that "cling" is a good thing, and that God and guns are longstanding small-town traditions and sources  of strength for the hard times, then you cannot escape that he's also standing by his statement that racism is also a longstanding small-town tradition and source of strength for the hard times, because it is what these people know and and have been raised on.  So you do realize that Obama is standing by his characterization of small-towners as historically and happily bigoted individuals, who are now doubly so in their bitterness?  Do you think it wise for him to continue down this track of standing by his words?

    [ Parent ]
    Can Obama and supporters get some new material? (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by ghost2 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:52:11 AM EST
    I am really getting tired of them digging 17-year old quotes from Bill Clinton.  

    While we are at it, lots of us (with regard for truth) really resent the passive-aggressive Obama approach and his snide remarks about Clinton administration.  

    Obama's candidacy is based on "a noun, a verb, and my 2002 speech", now all his defence lines are coming from quoting Bill Clinton in 1992 campaign?  Who is stuck in the past here?

    Give me a break.

    At least we can be confident (none / 0) (#142)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:49:55 AM EST
    that they do not have Hillary's words comparable to his "bitter" comment.

    [ Parent ]
    The creative class, starring the TPM, my home for (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by bslev22 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:53:52 AM EST
    quite a long while, has already turned this into a Hillary Clinton gaffe.  Now it's a story about how clever Senator Obama is for making fun of Hillary Clinton for having a shot and a beer.  Folks, face it, no matter what, this will not be an issue in the primaries, although it should be one because it really highlights with crystal clarity the problems that the Demcoratic Party has had winning elections at the national level.  We mock our base, and that is reflected in the manner in which Senator Obama defined small town voters at his San Francisco fundraiser.  I firmly believe that this will be tucked under the rug after Hillary is pilloried for having a beer with the guys, and in the general election campaign it will reemerge to pulverize Senator Obama and the prospects for a Democrat in the White House.

    You can't mock your base and win.

    I wonder (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by magisterludi on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:06:30 AM EST
    how those PA hunters will react to Obama imagining Hillary in a duck blind with her "six-shooter" in his song and dance response? Six-shooters? In a duck blind? I've never hunted in my life and even I caught that one.

    [ Parent ]
    What the "creative class" (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:07:17 AM EST
    is accomplishing b y mocking Clinton having a beer with the guys, is simply to communicate the idea that Clinton is really at home with them and they can feel comfortable with her in the Whitehouse.  The Obama camp keeps demonstrating that they absolutely do not know what to do with this lemon of a gaffe from their idol.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly right (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:19:05 AM EST
    After months of not talking to a friend, I called to say happy birthday yesterday and he could not stop ranting about how Hillary is using this.  How she is destroying the Democratic Party etc.  etc.  I think there are some anger issues with the Creative Class as a whole.  

    [ Parent ]
    by the way... (5.00 / 6) (#16)
    by white n az on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:54:19 AM EST
    I think that you continually miss one of the more salient reasons for this whole 'gaffe'

    Obama is delivering an entirely loaded comment which at the core, blames Bill Clinton and his policies for which he offers no substantive proof.

    NAFTA (none / 0) (#38)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:04:29 AM EST
    Clinton policy.  at the heart of Obama's comment.

    [ Parent ]
    He actually needs to stop. (none / 0) (#73)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:18:19 AM EST
    Needs to stop trying to tie Clinton with Bush. He keeps doing this. And it keeps biting him in the arse. And he continues to do it. Most people remember the Clinton years. Positively. Bill had a 65% approval rating even AFTER the Republicans tried to bring him down.  No other president had that kind of approval rating as they left office. He needs to start telling people that don't vote for him that they're racist and stupid. They're actually voting for Hillary just because they think she'd be better. No need for him to try and insult them for not voting for him.

    And the more his supporters try to spin this---a variation of "well everything he said IS true"--the worse it is for him.

    [ Parent ]

    NAFTA (none / 0) (#80)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:22:40 AM EST
    has had severe consequences in my backyard.  the policy needs to be active in order to have perspective.  in retrospect, major alterations to the agreement should have been made. You didn't respond to any part of my comment. approval rating, republicanse, etc. is just gibberish.  

    [ Parent ]
    Regarding those alterations (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:29:28 AM EST
    If Gore had won the court case (elections are no longer necessary I guess), do you think those alterations would have been made?

    Do you think Bill and Hillary Clinton would have opposed those alterations?

    And, did NAFTA require Bush to give tax breaks to companies that send jobs overseas.

    Or is that something that Bush implemented and would have implemented with or without NAFTA?

    [ Parent ]

    doesn't change the fact that it was poorly (none / 0) (#134)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:44:30 AM EST
    crafted from the start.  it has damaged middle america. these are just facts.  nothing else.

    [ Parent ]
    Clearly discussing it (none / 0) (#150)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:53:17 AM EST
    Any more than what you've just said is not something you wish to do.

    I'm a NAFTA supporter pretty much, anyway, I'm sure we disagree on a lot.

    [ Parent ]

    i'm not a NAFTA supporter (none / 0) (#165)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:59:26 AM EST
    i support free and fair trade.  

    [ Parent ]
    There's no such thing (none / 0) (#166)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:00:37 AM EST
    Everyone has an agenda and acts out of self-interest.


    [ Parent ]
    Great effort to change topic (none / 0) (#170)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:03:43 AM EST
    from "Bitter."  But "bitter" will not go away until Obama and his supporters stop trying to justify it.  Hillary is the candidate, not Bill Clinton and credible people like Gergen, Woodward and Bernstein attest to the fact that Hillary was opposed to the policy within the Whitehouse, but as a good team player, once the decision was made, she went out in public in support of it.  Even Pres. H. W. Bush was for it.  Like Prohibition, was there was a preponderance of evidence that it was counterproductive, it was abolished.  Any sensible society would try to make things better.

    It is the same with individuals making mistakes:  they acknowledge, apologize if an apology is needed, then change for the better or move on.  Obama should learn to do this.

    [ Parent ]

    Well it's funny to me (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:40:15 AM EST
    that suddenly liberals are up in arms about Nafta. something that Hillary wasn't even involved with. But then again, liberals now bring up Lewinsky to me so it should be no shock.

    [ Parent ]
    But PA had low unemployment.... (none / 0) (#171)
    by ineedalife on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:03:44 AM EST
    when Clinton left office. It really disturbs me that Obama continually runs the Clinton administration down. If he gets the nomination, what is he going to say in the debates when asked why should the nation trust a Democrat to govern when, according to him, they suck at it?

    Obama has nicer things to say about Papa Bush and Reagan. If he really thinks Republicans do things better then why shouldn't the nation choose a real Republican over a wanna-be one?


    [ Parent ]

    ?? is this it now. (none / 0) (#177)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:06:56 AM EST
    but PA had low unemployment when Clinton left office.

    surprised the Clinton supporters are now pushing this.  

    [ Parent ]

    This has always been my point (none / 0) (#183)
    by MMW on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:10:57 AM EST
    "Obama has nicer things to say about Papa Bush and Reagan. If he really thinks Republicans do things better then why shouldn't the nation choose a real Republican over a wanna-be one?"

    He fights with Democrats, not Republicans. It's like a bully, who has strength only the little guys, not the big ones. look at how he has gone after the Clintons. It's because he knew they would never tear him apart.

    [ Parent ]

    You know what's sad? (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by OxyCon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:56:03 AM EST
    This is the same tactic the right wingers always employed whenever we raised valid points about George W. Bush.
    It's the old "But, but Clinton". Google it.
    Somehow, if your favorite guy in the world screws up, you can exonerate him if you spend a week sorting through Lexis and you find a Bill Clinton quote that you can twist into the same meaning as the gaffe your guy just made.
    What a bunch of jokers.
    They really "cling" to Obama too much and it warps their brains.

    It is pretty much the same meaning. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Faust on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:22:59 AM EST
    It's not a gaffe because it's false. It's a gaffe because it's a terrible formulation of the same idea.

    Clinton's forumlation frames the issue 10 times better.

    [ Parent ]

    BO's regret (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by Prabhata on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:56:32 AM EST
    was also poorly worded, and that's the problem because he never really owned the gaffe.  That's why it's not going away.

    Yup! (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:57:57 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Exactly, instead it was that typical weaselly (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by doyenne49 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:59:08 AM EST
    passive-voice statement, "I'm sorry if anyone was offended by my words." Not "I'm sorry I offended you." He isn't taking responsibility because he can't.

    [ Parent ]
    I remember early (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:00:42 AM EST
    in the campaign, in an interview, Michelle Obama said one reason her husband will be a great President is that he will admit it when he makes a mistake, unlike Bush.  Looks like she may have gotten that one wrong.

    [ Parent ]
    That's what he should have done (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:18:01 AM EST
    instead of defending what he said.

    "I misspoke, I'm sorry."

    After shooting himself in the foot, he took careful aim and shot himself in the other foot.

    [ Parent ]

    In the other (none / 0) (#175)
    by zyx on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:05:10 AM EST
    polished wingtip.

    They should be bronzed for posterity.

    [ Parent ]

    His fans go from thoughtlessly and often (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:57:07 AM EST
    arrogantly defending his statements to outrageous Clinton attacks.  Okay, so the Clinton attacks aren't that new but twice the spittle is flying off their lips.  They appear crazed.  I'm so glad I opted to go offline last night.  I would have blown a gasket!  Abstinence for teenagers?  What a joke!  If you believe in evolution then you know that survival of the fittest made human beings their absolute uncontrollable horniest in their teens.....everything is working at its optimum except for their checking accounts.  Time to make some babies and checking accounts are manmade and mother nature doesn't give a rip about them.  Talk about setting our kids up for failure again and again and again!  I'm so tired of stupid people running things!

    well, maybe because (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:07:18 AM EST
    Obama apparently supports Creationism, he doesn't really believe that.  It's all about the sanctity of sexuality for him.  How does that jibe with his love of rap music, I wonder?

    This isn't going to go away because McCain is on to it now.  The media will cover everything McCain says about it.  Clinton, not so much.

    [ Parent ]

    Funny this unity thing (none / 0) (#112)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:35:30 AM EST
    they had him almost saying that he taught his kids creationism.  

    [ Parent ]
    McCain is (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:57:40 AM EST
    answering questions on CNN about bitter gate, and he is helping Clinton by giving credibility to her interpretation. How weird, and how sad, we need to have a Republican say it so the press will put the whole thing in context.

    clinton and mccain on the same team. (none / 0) (#41)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:05:20 AM EST
    this is getting pretty silly.

    [ Parent ]
    I am not voting for (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:08:14 AM EST
    McCain, but he sounded more sane than anything Obama has said since his gaffe was made public.

    [ Parent ]
    Blame Obama (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:21:02 AM EST
    He's the one who said it, don't blame two experienced politicians for taking advantage of Obama's unforced error.

    [ Parent ]
    just think its petty (none / 0) (#88)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:25:55 AM EST
    it was an error.  he admitted it.  he has explained that he regrets his choice of words but feels that, what he was trying to say, was factually accurate.  bad wording, yes.  but saying that there are many people who have become bitter w/ govt, and its inability to truly effect their lives in a positive way, have clung/gravitated,etc. to guns,god,gays,immigration is factually accurate. but we just keep playing the same old games, which i expect.  i just hope(d) that internally within a party, we'd elevate the level of discussion a bit.  was wrong.

    [ Parent ]
    No, that's not elevating the discussion (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:32:46 AM EST
    It's not elevating the discussion to dismiss people's values. I think, and others have said, that the GOP tries to exploit social issues. They are successful not because people are bitter and think that the government won't deliver on economic issues for them. They succeed because sometimes they exploit people's fears (of change, of someone different, of death) and sometimes they exploit people's genuinely held values.

    People in the Democratic Party have been talking about this for years. Obama is not the first, and others have done it far less clumsily, and without insulting people's values.

    [ Parent ]

    I have to question how you know (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:33:48 AM EST
    it is factually accurate to say

    "there are many people who have become bitter w/ govt, and its inability to truly effect their lives in a positive way, have clung/gravitated,etc. to guns,god,gays,immigration"

    I don't think Obama's statement was clumsily worded at all. I think he said what he meant. I just think he was flat out wrong to say there is a proven causal relationship there. I'd like to see some evidence.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama was referring to the (none / 0) (#216)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:50:43 PM EST
    'What's the Matter with Kansas' theory, quesitoned here, for one place.

    LINK

    [ Parent ]

    What you say: "is factually accurate" (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:34:31 AM EST
    I tell you this was not a gaffe, there is no regret.  The Creative Class and the Obama campaign believe this things to their core.  And guess what, the clingers will show them in the General Election.  Cause it's not about words, it's about the disdain that is communicated.  

    [ Parent ]
    whats up w/ this Creative Class bs. (none / 0) (#136)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:47:40 AM EST
    and so you know, there is no regret and that he believes this to his core?  

    wow.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes...look at how (none / 0) (#145)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:50:13 AM EST
    you all ardently cling to the defense that it's factual.  If you believe it's factual, how do you regret a fact?  The regret is in getting caught.  It's not in the comment.  

    [ Parent ]
    regret the choice of words (none / 0) (#167)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:02:02 AM EST
    didn't get that?  sometimes people say things that are accurate and factual but say them in a way that they regret.  a better choice of words could have gotten the point across better and not been construed by Clinton for purely political advantage.  She's quite smart and obviously knows better.  but she's a politician above all else.

    [ Parent ]
    Dude (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by nell on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:09:26 AM EST
    you MUST stop. The whole point is that it was NOT accurate. People have guns because they like to shoot things and they go to church because they believe, and they believed and liked to shoot things long before they became bitter about job loss. And it obviously was not meant as a positive as the traits that followed after clinging to god and guns was that these people cling to antipathy for people who are different, and anti-immigrant sentiment. Bitter may have been close to accurate, but the rest was inaccurate, wrong, and offensive.

    At this point you are embaressing yourself spinning like crazy. Just stop, this goes away faster if you stop spinning.

    [ Parent ]

    This is a perfect example (none / 0) (#186)
    by felizarte on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:14:12 AM EST
    of digging a deeper hole.  So what is regretted is "the choice of words"?  Not the message?  So when he said that "  . . . bitter so they cling to . . ." stands?

    Can't you see?  How would you like to be told, that the reason one goes to church, owns a gun, is because of bitterness?  Add to religion and guns, "antipathy to people who are not like themselves . . . ."

    Even if you were to change 'bitter' to frustration,  disappointment, discouragement, hurt, etc, etc.  it is still not the right message.  Obama should never have opened his mouth on this topic.  It is not too late yet (maybe) to shut up on this.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama defenders (none / 0) (#204)
    by bodhcatha on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:18:31 PM EST
    are being wilfully ignorant, just like they pretended not to see anything wrong with what Rev. Wright said.  What Obama said was NOT factually accurate.  People who have God/guns values do not have them because they're bitter or trying to explain away their frustrations.  Even successful, unbitter people in small towns have these values, whether I agree with them or not.  And remember the CONTEXT.  He was using these remarks to explain why "those people" would not vote for his holy self.  And telling this to SF rich people, god help him.  
    I liked it when a reporter tried to use WORM on Hillary in Scranton on Sunday, and she called him on it.  She's sharp, that one.

    [ Parent ]
    Wait a minute (none / 0) (#215)
    by ChrisO on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:33:44 PM EST
    You mean Clinton is using something for political advantage, in the middle of a political campaign? How despicable.

    Everyone knows that when Obama screws up, it's Hillary's obligation to jump in and defend him. Otherwise she's "destroying the party."

    Face it, you keep talking about how everypone on this site is so intent on bringing Obama down that they refuse to approach issues logically. Yet you keep repeating the same spin, and willfully ignore the most damaging things about Obama's comments, despite how many times they're pointed out to you. So I'll repeat: he lumped together religion, gun ownership and xenophobia, and attributed them all to bitterness. I have yet to see you speak to that. It wasn't a bad choice of words. It was a bad idea, and it was his idea. The venue he chose to express that idea was no mistake, either. He wouldn't have said that to a crowd in Pennsylvania. Talking that way to a crowd of wealthy San Franciscans just reinforced the whole idea of Obama talking about the people of Pennsylavania as the Others.

    What's really offensive is the way Obama's supporters are trying the same misdirection with this that they tried with the Wright controversy. People objected to Wright saying "God Damn America," but Obama declares that it's all about race. So now any discussion of Wright is cloaked in racial terms.

    Obama insults small town voters in Pennsylavania and other midwestern communities by dismissing their embrace of religion as rooted in bitterness, and all his supporters talk about is whether it's accurate to say that many people are bitter. Of course there's a lot of people who are bitter, anda lot who are hopeful. But the debate isn't whether people are bitter, as much as Josh Marshall and others would like to spin it that way. The debate is about Obama being so dismissive of values that people in these communities hold dear. And like it or not, most of those people are smart enough to know that.

    I really wish Obama's supporters would stop insulting our intelligence by talking about how "refreshing" it is to have a candidate who tells the truth. This is a political campaign. I want a candidate who is generally truthful, but who is also smart enough not to screw up. How about if on his next campaign stop he mentions how fat people in the audience are? Perhaps he can tie it to a need for better health education. That might be another breath of fresh air.

    [ Parent ]

    Ok let's start the elevating (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:43:04 AM EST
    But no longer screaming "but Clinton" every time Obama stumbles. Let's start by NOT tearing down our own president of the past 16 years. Let's start by NOT putting down a very strong woman who is running. Let's start by NOT constantly offending 1/2 of the democratic party. Let's start by NOT saying two major states don't count with a straight face.

    Then I'll join you.

    [ Parent ]

    Jeffhas (none / 0) (#196)
    by jeffhas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:37:41 AM EST
    You are forgetting that Pennsylvania votes Democrat.  He's not referring to Republicans manipulating voters - because these PA voters choose Dems!  

    [ Parent ]
    Bitter-god-guns - used in every local (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by jawbone on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:00:17 AM EST
    news broadcast I heard in the NYC metro area yesterday and even this morning.

    Those words in some combination as what Obama said about rural/small town PA-and by extension of other rural/small town areas. Obama himself has extended his remarks to include any area with losses of mfring, jobs, including IL.

    A lot of nuance is left out in the brief time allowed for any political news coverage.  

    I was trying to figure out how people might take these reports and am having some trouble doing so, bcz so much is left out.

    Oh, closed private fund raiser in SF also is mentioned but not as often.

    You're right... (5.00 / 4) (#50)
    by Scott on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:07:19 AM EST
    ...it is time to move on but you're NUTS if you think people will forget about this issue.  I think one thing this blogger needs to realize is the fact that these words were said in complete privacy (or so Mr. Obama thought)... so he felt quite comfortable revealing his true colors of how he sees the average American small town person.  

    For the record I grew up in a small town.  We were NOT bitter people.  Some of my family enjoyed hunting but they didn't cling to their guns because of some bitter issue.  Some of my family enjoyed going to church but they didn't cling to religion because of some bitter issue.  So CLEARLY Mr. Obama is the one with the issue! Maybe he's the bitter one trying to inject his own views and paint them on these "small town" folks.  I'm beginning to think this to be true. Could it be that he's the bitter one that clings to his religion (Mr. Wright) for some reason?!  

    After receiving an MBA/Finance degree many years ago I am now in more urban surroundings.  HOWEVER, I am still pissed that Mr. Obama feels he can use my upbringing and relatives, that still live in those small towns, for his own benefit.  Using them in a speech to collect money from wealthy bleeding liberal donors in San Francisco.  

    I'll tell you like this... I was an UNDECIDED PA voter.  I've been a little nerved lately by the things I'd been hearing coming from Mr. Obama.  It seems every week he gets himself into trouble with his comments!  This latest one though is the straw that broke the camels back for me.  I'm not alone in this either... I spent the past two days discussing this with my other friends who were on the undecided track here in PA.  

    Mr. Obama is still a candidate that needs quite a bit more vetting before he runs for President.  He also needs to come to terms with a lot of his own internal issues as to how he views people in this country.  I mean come on... first it was the "typical white person"  now it's "small town" folks... I mean he really has a problem with the very people he needs to vote for him.  WE are FINALLY seeing this and it's just not possible, anymore, for me to vote for him in the PA Primary.  At this point I wouldn't even support him in November should he be the nominee!

    This got McCain airtime (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by waldenpond on Mon