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Hillary's Restraint and Obama's General Election Challenges

Bump and Update: Hillary took off the restraints in PA today:

She made the argument that Sen. Barack Obama's comments could cost the party the election and that the party has been seen as out of touch by male candidates in the past. Clinton also criticized Obama for not "owning up to his remarks."

Original Post:

Don't miss reading John Harris and Jim Vandehei at Politico and their new article positing that far from trying to throw the proverbial kitchen sink at Barack Obama, Hillary has been exercising great restraint.

According to Politico, Hillary believes that Obama cannot win in November. The article says, if Hillary felt free to really speak her mind, here are the points she'd make:

More...

[O]ur conversations with Democrats who speak to the Clintons make plain that their public comments are only the palest version of what they really believe: that if Obama is the nominee, a likely Democratic victory would turn to a near-certain defeat. Far from a no-holds-barred affair, the Democratic contest has been an exercise in self-censorship. Rip off the duct tape and here is what they would say:

Obama has serious problems with Jewish voters (goodbye Florida), working-class whites (goodbye Ohio) and Hispanics (goodbye, New Mexico).

Republicans will also ruthlessly exploit openings that Clinton — in the genteel confines of an intraparty contest — never could. Top targets: Obama’s radioactive personal associations, his liberal ideology, his exotic life story, his coolly academic and elitist style.

Vandehei and Harris report:

But one argument seems indisputably true: Obama is on the brink of the Democratic nomination without having had to confront head-on the evidence about his general election challenges.

They interviewed many Democrats for the article:

Skepticism about Obama’s general election prospects extends beyond Clinton backers. We spoke to unaffiliated Democratic lawmakers, veteran lobbyists, and campaign operatives who believe the rush of enthusiasm for Obama’s charisma and fresh face has inhibited sober appraisals of his potential weaknesses.

Obama's two greatest potential liabilities:

Assuming voting patterns evident in the nominating contest continue into the fall, Obama would be vulnerable if McCain can approximate the traditional GOP performance in key states.

....Stories about Obama’s Chicago associations with 1960s radicals Bernardine Dohrn and William Ayers landed with barely a ripple. So, too, did questions about whether he once backed a total ban on handguns (he says no but in a 1996 state legislative race his campaign filled out a questionnaire saying yes). Obama’s graceful handling of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright controversy may have turned that into a net positive against Clinton. But all this was in a Democratic contest. What about about when Obama’s running against a Republican?

The reporters examine each one in turn. They acknowledge that African American and college- educated upscale white voters will come out in droves in November and be a big boon to him.

But there is reason to question whether he would be able to perform at average levels with other main pillars of the traditional Democratic coalition: blue-collar whites, Jews and Hispanics. He has run decently among these groups in some places, but in general he’s run well behind her.

Obama lost the Jewish vote by double-digits in Florida, New York and Maryland — and that was before controversy over anti-Israel remarks of Wright. An undecided Democratic superdelegate told us many Jewish voters are itching for a reason to break with the party and side with Republicans, who have embraced the Israeli cause with passion. A small shift could swing swing states like Florida and Pennsylvania, which have significant Jewish populations.

On the Hispanic vote, they note Obama won only 1/3 of it on Super Tuesday and even less in Texas:

A Democratic nominee needs big margins with Hispanics to win states like New Mexico, California, Colorado and Arizona. In the fall, Obama would be running against a Republican with a record on immigration that will resonate with Hispanics.

On the poor, rural and blue collar voters:

Three out of every four blue-collar whites in small towns and rural areas of Ohio voted for Clinton over Obama on March 4. The reality is, this is already an electorate with deep cultural divisions — and that’s in the Democratic Party.

On to issue-based attacks:

McCain, by contrast, would have a free hand to exploit a paper trail showing Obama’s evolution — opponents would say reversals — over the past decade from liberal positions on gun control, the death penalty and Middle East politics. He would exploit Obama’s current position in favor of driver’s licenses for illegal immigrants and beginning diplomatic talks with U.S. adversaries like the dictators of Iran and Venezuela. Will those issues help lower-income white voters “come back together” with Obama?

It will be the Republicans using the kitchen sink approach to attack Obama, including playing on falsities and engaging in baseless character attacks.

Here will be the real kitchen sink: every damaging comment or association from Obama’s past, mixed together with innuendo and downright fiction, to portray him as an an exotic character of uncertain values and weak patriotism.

Obama’s advisers say they are not naive about freak show attacks. Their response is that Obama’s appeal to a new brand of politics, and his personal poise and self-confidence, will allow him to transcend attacks and stereotypes in ways that Gore and Kerry could not.

Obama is indeed poised and self-confident. But the current uproar over his impromptu sociology lesson in San Francisco about “bitter” voters in Pennsylvania raise questions about his self-discipline, and his understanding of how easy it is for a politicians in modern politics to lose control of his or her public image.

Compared to Hillary:

Clinton has her own baggage, to put it mildly. But it’s been rummaged through for years, so what Democrats see is pretty much what they would get.

< Al Franken, Fighting Dem? | What Bill Clinton Said And What Obama Said >
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  • Display: Sort:
    That article (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:28:31 PM EST
    was one of the best I've ever read in a more mainstream outlet, calmly summarizing the challenges that Obama will have in the GE.

    The only thing I didn't know was that Obama has statistically done so poorly with Jewish voters. That really surprised me. Most Jewish folks I know, myself included, are not single-issue Israel voters, and despite what the article says, we are not "itching to join the Republican Party." Let's face it, George W. Bush has done nothing but ignore Israel during his whole nightmarish term, and has actually enabled the ascendancy of Ahmadinejad and Hamas. So if you want to help Israel above all else, I doubt you'd vote Republican!

    Perhaps we, like many liberal Democrats, just don't trust him on many core Democratic issues, like womens' rights and the economy, whereas HRC has an excellent record in those areas. However, I did express a fear a few days ago that if he is the nominee, we will lose New York. I suppose it could be true because of the Jewish vote?

    It doesn't surprise me (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:41:32 PM EST
    that Obama is weak among Jewish voters.  You don't have to be a single-issue Israel voter to be uneasy about the Wright connection or the Farrakhan endorsement.  As I'm sure you know, the slightest whiff of anti-Semitism will scare away many Jewish voters.  

    I think in particular Orthodox and Conservative Jews won't hesitate to pull the lever for McCain if Obama's the nominee.  

    I don't believe that NY would go for McCain over Obama in the general, but I have noticed that Obama is not popular with the Jewish and Catholic voters that I know.

    Parent

    That makes more sense to me (none / 0) (#14)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:42:35 PM EST
    than being a single-issue Israel voter.

    Thanks.

    Parent

    Jewish population (none / 0) (#189)
    by Natal on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:24:11 PM EST
    in the US is about 1% isn't it? A very large number of posters here rate Obama as not a leader, will get creamed by McCain, is not experienced, is arrogant, has no sympathy for the working poor. If perchance he becomes the nominee what does that say about the Democratic party to allow such a person to weasel his way to the top and hoodwink them with his flowery talk?

    Parent
    weasel and hoodwink? (none / 0) (#204)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:26:00 PM EST
    wow...I thought I was tough on Obama

    Jewish people vote - always

    I am Jewish...I don't know another Jewish person who is for Obama or likely to vote for Obama and I'm not pushing them either way...I'm merely reporting.

    Obama will lose the Jewish vote to McCain by big numbers...that I'm sure of.

    Parent

    Could it be because the Jewish vote (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:46:59 PM EST
    has changed a lot elsewhere, as it has in my community?  We have had great numbers in recent years of Jewish immigrants, many of them Orthodox in every way and far different in their world view than the Reform folks here for generations now.

    Btw, I like having neighbors who aren't assimilating too fast, for many reasons -- and not the least that the local delis had become so boring and all alike, but now we have so many new foods, as well as ideas, to widen our world views . . . and waistlines. :-)

    But with all that my new neighbors have been through in their homelands, they certainly assimilated fast to the chance to vote and have a high turnout here.

    Parent

    How will Obama win (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:54:37 PM EST
    if he (1) overturns the popular vote and gets the nom (2) has no support from core dems (3) keeps making gaffes like this one when the press needs a bad guy and (4) can't really win the big contested states anyway?

    If Obama plays sour grapes after losing the nom, then he can kiss being even a lowly, junior democratic senator from IL goodbye.  His political career will be over.  Maybe one of them thar laughin' billionaires will give him a job?

    Parent

    I highly doubt (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by jen on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:15:37 PM EST
    Obama would even want to keep his Senate job. He's spoken about how boring it is, and the one committee he was assigned to, he never held one hearing in 3 years time. No. Obama saw his chance for greatness through being a Senator, not being one.


    Parent
    You do know that super-delegates (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:23:39 PM EST
    who are "committed" can "uncommit," switch, etc. -- exactly as some have done already?  They can do it again.  So there is a (remote but real) way for Clinton to win it before the convention, too.

    Plus, you do know that no one knows, not matter mow much media and Obama try to claim that they do, the "pledged" delegate count to date?  Obama's count is soft, with his reliance on caucus states, as those numbers keep changing with each recaucusing stage, too -- and the last of those is months away as well.

    Bottom line, no one knows who has how many delegates even so far, much less how many yet to come . . . and how many who yet may switch.  And after what we saw of Obama this week, there is a lot of the process yet to unfold.  Just because he admits to being impatient does not mean that we must be.


    Parent

    You do know that most voters (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:59:07 PM EST
    don't pay much attention until after Labor Day?

    That the last time Dems won, the nominee wasn't settled on until mid-summer?

    Patience is a virtue, especially in the political process.

    Btw, you do know that Obama has said twice that he would bomb Pakistan, I presume.  So with all of these candidates, I need to see more, much more.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:11:43 PM EST
    This is snark right?

    Parent
    snark I hope but doubt it (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:28:56 PM EST
    it is really something though to have the same person hit McCain for threatening war with Iran and in their next comment make favorable noises about bombing Pakistan.  too ludicrous for snark.  :-)

    Parent
    If you know anything about (none / 0) (#129)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:11:43 PM EST
    Pakistan, its mountains, etc., it would be idiotic to bomb it on a topographical basis alone, not to mention miring us in another war.  Jeesh, buy a map.

    Parent
    BTW, 40th and 10th Leg Districts (WA state) (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by lookoverthere on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:02:09 PM EST
    I was at the caucus yesterday.

    40th LD:
    6/13 Clinton/Obama

    10th LD:
    2/5 Clinton/Obama

    Sen. Clinton picked up one delegate to the next round of caucuses and may have picked up two.

    Next caucus is in Spokane in mid-May.

    Parent

    I guarantee you that if Hillary is forced from the (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:12:48 PM EST
    race by party leaders before the convention, especially if the votes of Michigan and Florida would have changed the outcome in her favor, that it won't matter what else happens there.  The thirty percent of Hillary voters who currently won't vote for Obama will be multiplied many times over. I can barely stomach the idea of voting for him now and if that happens I simply will not. I'll vote downticket and that is all.

    I'm old enough to remember when conventions actually were contested and there was never a problem with that.  Having the situation perceived as fair by EVERYONE, not just Obama voters, is crucial to the Democrats chances in November.

    Parent

    I totally agree with (none / 0) (#145)
    by zfran on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:22:25 PM EST
    these comments. When I tell some that I'm one who has great reservations about voting Dem if it's not Sen. Clinton, they argue that I should be a good Dem and vote the line. I did this in 2004, along with many, many others and we lost. I think the way the media is pushing Sen. Obama and bashing Sen. Clinton, we've lot anyway!!!

    Parent
    That should be "lost" (none / 0) (#150)
    by zfran on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:24:12 PM EST
    at the end not "lot"

    Parent
    And you do know (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Marvin42 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:19:36 PM EST
    That some of us deeply believe if Sen Obama is the candidate we WILL lose in Nov (more and more every day)?

    Parent
    Buy a clue. He wins by excluding (5.00 / 5) (#70)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:27:43 PM EST
    the primary votes of Fl and MI but they're rock solid for him in the GE?

    Parent
    Powell also is 70 (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:11:42 PM EST
    and much as I admire him, despite the way he was used by Bush -- Powell thus will not counter one of the main concerns about McCain.

    Parent
    Not to mention (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:18:35 PM EST
    that the downticket argument has proven specious.  Obama supporters tend to only vote for one person on the ticket--Obama.

    That's what you get with dems for a day, or Obama democrats.

    Parent

    Cream City (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:51:45 PM EST
    this is the first post of yours I've read that I really disagree with.  Powell should get no admiration from anyone.  He collaborated fully in his own exploitation by Bush without a peep and has still said nothing.  He has as much blood on his hands as Bush does, if not more because he knew it was all a crock and went along with it anyway.

    Parent
    I know. It's hard to write it (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:05:09 PM EST
    but I also know that we would not have an AA candidate today without Colin Powell in consideration before.  Not that I am for the AA candidate now, not that I would have voted for Powell then. . . .

    Plus, I was a veteran's wife, and I read a lot of what Powell read and saw as a veteran and lifelong military man would -- re blood on their hands, it can mean a different outlook by the ones who always have had to be so willing to bleed for us.  And from what I read, he did not think it was all a crock -- even though I did and was so angry at him for speaking for war.

    It is, I think, an instructive lesson in being careful about which cabinet posts ought not be occupied by military.  Secretary for Defense, maybe, but not Secretary of State!

    Anyway, glad to know we otherwise tend to agree -- as I often do with your comments, too.  Cheers.

    Parent

    Yes. I agree. He was present at the torture (none / 0) (#180)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:12:35 PM EST
    discussions with Cheney and Rice and Rumsfeld and didn't protest or act. Only John Ashcroft protested!

    I used to think highly of Powell but no more. There's a limit to how much I can stomach.

    Parent

    I can't imagine (none / 0) (#74)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:30:29 PM EST
    McCain asking him since Powell, to this point, has not endorsed him and he is the presumptive nominee.

    Parent
    True, Powell's just itching to endorse Obama. (none / 0) (#79)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:33:09 PM EST
    ...but i don't think he wants to do it until the GE.

    Parent
    Powell just ties him more to the Iraq. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:33:57 PM EST
    Insulting to AA's that you think they would just vote for any AA no matter what.

    Parent
    Willie, please (none / 0) (#105)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:53:22 PM EST
    if you have nothing to offer but Obama campaign talking points we've already discussed here over and over and over again, find another blog to pester.

    Parent
    Well, Willie, why not wait for those (none / 0) (#133)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:13:24 PM EST
    election results?  Do you realize what a huge percentage of the population has not had a chance to vote yet?  Why are you against letting voters vote?

    Parent
    Desperation and Hysteria (none / 0) (#184)
    by blogtopus on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:30:16 PM EST
    The closer this race gets, the more hysterically the Obamabots will wail 'shut the primary down!'

    Obama is monopoly money. In their world, his capital is real and going to win the GE because the pony says so. In the real world, his worth is aiming for the cellar and diving fast.

    Desperation. Period.

    Parent

    Powel has been an advisor to Obama (none / 0) (#111)
    by ghost2 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:59:10 PM EST
    Yeah.  If there was one person who could have seriously derailed Bush's plan on War, it was Powel.  He could have gone public with his reservation.  But he didn't, and he enabled it by giving that awful presentation in UN.  

    Imagine if there was as much as a picture of handshake between Hillary and Powel??

    But it is Obama, the candidate with the anti-war speech and so-called judgement, and Powel has all kinds of nice words to say about him.  Move along, nothing to see here.  You won't see a discussion on this on blogs or your usual liberal scribes.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#224)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:05:43 AM EST
    the only time I recall Powell standing up to a President was when he refused to agree with Bill Clinton about allowing gays to serve openly in the military. So he was all for being a bigot, but said nothing about torture and lying to the UN, the Senate, and the country. He also personally reassured Clinton and other Senators that the only reason they wanted the AUMF was to give them leverage with the UN. Now Clinton and other dems are being blamed for supposedly being for the war, when that wasn't what the vote was supposed to be about in the first place. Without Colin Powell's place in this whole mess, Obama wouldn't be demagoguing about his supposed anti-war speech. What a tool!


    Parent
    mistrust on core Democratic issues (none / 0) (#222)
    by noholib on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:42:05 PM EST
    After Edwards withdrew, that was what turned me to Clinton rather than Obama:
    I could not abide his using Republican-attack inspired ads a la "Harry and Louise" to attack Clinton on health care.  Influenced by Paul Krugman in the NY Times, I have felt since early February that Obama is not more liberal than Clinton on domestic policies.  I see him following the republican lead on health care, scaring everyone about social security, energy policy (Obama voted for Cheney's bill which Clinton opposed).  He is so anxious to attack Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton that he ends up praising Reagan and Bush I ... in attacking Clinton (to him it doesn't matter which one, past or present), he tars the entire Democratic Party ...  with his "pox on both your houses" rhetoric.  To hear Obama's version of history, it's as if no Democrat has done anything good in Washington since JFK!!  As a liberal Democrat, I am not convinced he will stand up for core Democratic values.  I have tried to see his reaching out to Republicans and independents as a clever tactic, but I'm not really convinced.  I still prefer Democratic partisanship to supposed "post-partisanship" -- that looks awfully namby-pamby to me and like advance surrender to highly partisan Republicans.

    Parent
    A Manufactured Hero (5.00 / 10) (#3)
    by Athena on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:30:48 PM EST
    The protective bubble around Obama - courtesy of a media and blog honchos - will burst rapidly and leave the Democrats with a shell of the Superman that Obama was earlier this year.

    I think a reverse racism at work makes many critics much more gentle than they would normally be - and to the detriment of all Democrats.  As Obama is gently led to the nomination, the party will be reeling when he is finally exposed with all of his electoral deficits.

    Credit all the big players - MSM, alt-media, etc., - for putting Hillary on the cross and Obama on the throne.  It will all backfire mightily if Hillary cannot get the nomination.  Obama will be remembered as the reincarnation of John Kerry who lost an otherwise winnable election.

    Not Kerry (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by badger on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:46:11 PM EST
    The last nominee who had the support Obama has ("creative class" and black voters, primarily) was George McGovern.

    Parent
    LOL, I was in college then and... (5.00 / 7) (#51)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:14:18 PM EST
    ...I was a huge McGovern supporter. And I was obnoxious as hell too. That's why I can cut some of the youthful Obama enthusiasts some slack. Its party hacks and media whores trying to fix an election that trouble me.

    Parent
    Me too (none / 0) (#65)
    by badger on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:25:11 PM EST
    And I probably believed McGovern would win in a landslide too.


    Parent
    He did get the landslide! (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:29:24 PM EST
    Unfortunately, it was in one state.  And the District of Columbia.

    Lookit, anything the SDs do is going to be behind closed doors.  Cream is right--they can change their minds (or should I say "minds") at any point.  All they have to do is rattle their sabers and Obama will take the VP ticket.

    The upcoming elections are about Clinton proving herself.  Obama can't just hold on anymore.  He has to take some big states.  As the days go by, that brass ring gets farther and farther away from him.

    This is why they kept demanding she drop out: because the SDs told Obama flat out that she still had a chance.

    Parent

    I did -- oh, I did. I thought that (5.00 / 4) (#78)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:33:05 PM EST
    everyone would see the shining light like a nimbus, a halo, around McGovern's head that I could see.

    I still see it, bless him.  But I grew up and took off my rose-colored glasses that had me hallucinating about the realities of politics -- Maria, I cracked up at your post.  Yes, we were obnoxious, and thank heavens that we didn't have the 'Net and the blogs to do what is being done today.

    (Even so, sadder but wiser girl than I am, I could not have predicted quite how low so many would go in this campaign.  It's far worse than any I've seen, and I worked for "Clean Gene," too . . . and even distributed literature for JFK when I was just a kid and could barely reach a doorknob.)

    Parent

    And omigod could you imagine.... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:35:58 PM EST
    ...our parents being cajoled into voting for McGovern because we had a hissy fit? Actually, my parents did vote for McGovern but only because they were Chicago democrats and I don't think that any of the R votes were ever counted in Chicago in those days.

    Parent
    Oh, McGovern (none / 0) (#112)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:59:22 PM EST
    I voted for him, of course, but I wasn't real enthusiastic, mostly because I was hanging around Michael Dukakis in those days and he had a pretty low opinion of him, though I no longer remember why.

    I had to laugh at one of the recent Dem. conventions, not sure if it was Gore or Kerry, the TV cameras caught sight of McGovern and Dukakis way, way up in the nosebleed section where they'd been banished, heads leaning into each other, McGovern yakking away a mile a minute, Dukakis nodding and nodding and eating fistfuls of popcorn as he listened.  Sorta tragicomic that they finally had something to bond over.


    Parent

    alright! (none / 0) (#142)
    by isaac on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:20:20 PM EST
    enough about mcgovern (oldsters)

    Parent
    Not so fast, Young'un (none / 0) (#148)
    by Lora on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:23:32 PM EST
    I remember the T-shirts:

    Don't Blame Me!

    ---I voted for McGovern.

    Parent

    You know. (none / 0) (#116)
    by ghost2 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:02:01 PM EST
    I don't know about McGovern, but there is something about youth.  While the older people see slogans such as 'change', 'hope', 'changing washington', and know that they have seen it all before, it's new to the young voters.

    Old voters say, "show me the money", whereas young voters thinkg older people are just stupid and/or part of the corruption.  

    Parent

    me three (none / 0) (#206)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:29:57 PM EST
    but our moment was stolen in 1968 when after RFK was assassinated, HHH got the nomination instead of McCarthy.

    I don't know that McCarthy would have beaten Nixon at that point but I surely think 1972 would have been a different race.

    Parent

    What is (none / 0) (#21)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:47:32 PM EST
    "the creative class?" I've read it many times lately but I don't know what it is referring to.

    Parent
    Well-educated, urban/suburban people (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by badger on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:21:32 PM EST
    whose jobs fall into the category usually described by "knowledge-work". Often, but not always, upper income. Self-identify as liberal or progressive, but may not be consistently so if it conflicts with their self-interest.

    Parent
    Wiki description (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:00:41 PM EST
    The creative class is a group of people that social scientist Dr. Richard Florida, a professor and head of the Prosperity Institute at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto, believes are a key driving force for economic development of post-industrial cities in the USA.

    The "Creative Class" concept is controversial, as is Florida's methodology. He breaks the Class into two broad sections, derived from standard SOC codes data sets:

        * Creative Professionals: "Knowledge workers" and expanding to include lawyers and physicians.
        * Super-Creative Core: This comprises about twelve percent of all U.S. jobs. This group is deemed to contain a huge range of occupations (e.g. architecture, education, computer programming) with arts, design, and media workers making a small subset.

    Additional to these two main groups of creative people, the usually much smaller group of Bohemians are also included in the Creative class.

    Personally, I think the "knowledge workers" should get their own class. I am at a lose as to when lawyers and physicians were considered "creative professionals". I'm sure more than a few of the "super-creative core" would agree ;)

    No offense meant to any lawyers here! Just as a working "creative professional" for about 25yrs, the only lawyers I worked with were not hangin' in the studios with us ;)

    Parent

    Thanks for the clue! :-) (none / 0) (#84)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:35:49 PM EST
    It refers to Chris Bowers (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by ghost2 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:03:28 PM EST
    That's what he called himself and bloggers like himself who are for Obama.

    I like to call them, "creaters of Bulls--t class", but that's just me.  


    Parent

    so funny - (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Josey on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:36:21 PM EST
    These same Politico reporters have given Obama lots of big passes. But NOW - after Obama's gaffe with his Billionaire donors - they've decided to question his electability.
    Apparently - they didn't get the "bitter" memo which was the better part of Obama's toxic remarks.

    Politico (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:51:23 PM EST
    from my recollection, is big with the repubs.  McCain has come out against the bitter gaffe.  Rove made a comment.  Starting to look very coordinated to me.  

    Parent
    yes - Politico is owned by Repubs (none / 0) (#72)
    by Josey on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:30:21 PM EST
    hear hear! (5.00 / 7) (#6)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:36:46 PM EST
    I have long said that if clinton were really willing to "say or do anything", we would have seen those wright tapes last december.

    By and large, she's gone after him on policy - not that that has done her any good as so many are eager to call her the devil.

    Of course I agree (5.00 / 8) (#13)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:42:23 PM EST
    that he is unelectable, and that Clinton has by no means rolled up her sleeves and taken him on as a true opponent, but I think the last bit quoted is the most important, and that it counters BTDs Media Darling theory:

    Clinton has baggage, but it's old baggage.  Even new baggage seems old because it's so similar to the old that it's somehow cancelled out.

    That she is still standing, and has winning in her sights, says much more about her viability to me than Obama's good press, which I firmly believe would disappear should he (per chance) win the nomination and have to run against McCain.

    Plus I do not want her to quit (none / 0) (#188)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:07:56 PM EST
    I don't want to hear for the rest of my life that the woman quit. That the men took her in a room and said for the good of the party, etc. She has just as much chance to win as he does and especially with the stuff that has come out lately.

    My friend called from Florida and said, "We will not talk politics". I said, oh, checking up on your poor bitter small town friend? We chuckled. But she did say "he didn't mean it like it is being portrayed". She said that about Wright also. We are friends since college. We will survive this. But she will not give an inch. She did mention that Obama is catching up with Hillary in Penna and if he loses it might just be single digit and that would be a loss to Hillary because she was suppose to win bigger.Then we went on to talk about puppies.

    Parent

    And of course this is not NEW (none / 0) (#226)
    by Salt on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:59:11 AM EST
    200 Million dollars later we are at the same place we started on the electability front. Clinton, however, has been mauled by attacks and the use of the Press as attack surrogates and that has harmed Dems overall almost seemlying becoming what they had hated by wielding Republicans campaign strategies.  But the nastiness has also created a firm unshakable Clinton base of supporters, as well, so maybe it's, hopefully, been a wash versus a loss come Nov..  But indeed the intraparty Clinton attacks must stop following PA or the damaged will not rebound, there is limited time to recover and my guess only the Clintons can rally the Base back in the battleground States. Obama will now need to gracefully decline the VP slot if Clinton is forced to offer it to him,  Strickland may now be the only correct choice because of the Obama Rev Wright issue, which has again raised question of the Party's extreme views on God, Communities, and love of Country within middle America.  Much repair will need to be accomplished even with Clinton as the nominee for a Dem win in Nov. much has happened.

    Parent
    This (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by nell on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:43:56 PM EST
    is not a credible argument because there is no head to head polling in which his plays out. All of the match ups so far have found that while there is the risk of depressed African American turnout if people are angry, there is no indication that African American voters would be defecting towards McCain. Remember, the specific groups being talked about in the article are groups that are known to SWING elections, Latinos have little party loyalty and they vote for who they think is the best candidate. Same thing with the Reagan Democrats, they swing. Had Kerry won them in 2004, he would have been the nominee.

    Also, if we are concerned about lower African American turnout, don't forget that lower women turnout would be just as much of a challenge for Obama. If he does not win this nomination by including FL and MI, I, for one, will stay home.

    And finally, the President is determined by the electoral college. Having huge African American turnout in urban areas in blue states is fantastic for Democracy, but it is not a game changer. With southern states, same thing, great for Democracy, but doesn't help too much if it is not a game changer. The states that are going to be coming into play are traditional swing states like OH, FL, MI, PA, and newer swing states, like CO, NM, and NV...and in these states, attracting blue collar workers and Latinos is CRITICAL.

    It changes the game for Congress (none / 0) (#39)
    by dianem on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:58:22 PM EST
    Having large black/young draw in red states won't make much of a difference in the Presidency, but it might make a difference in the makeup of Congress. Every Congressperson who is up for reelection is looking at the demographics of their district to try to figure out how Obama's running is likely to effect them. I'm betting that Pelosi and Reid have spreadsheets predicting exactly how many new Democratic congresspeople they will have with Obama - and how many fewer they might get if Clinton draws out Republicans.

    Parent
    The problem with this (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by cal1942 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:44:44 PM EST
    coattail analysis is that Obama support is thin.  By that I mean that some of his enthusiastic supporters really don't care about any other race.  

    The perfect example was the ballot analysis in parts of Texas.  A share of Obama supporters voted only at the top of the ticket ignoring ALL down ticket races.  Clinton supporters were far less likely to drop the rest of the ballot. A double digit difference.

    In short I believe that a lot of Obama supporters are simply too 'eclectic' concerning party politics and it wouldn't surprise me if a fair share would split their tickets in search of that Unity pony.

    There are in the neighborhood of 30 or so Republican House incumbents who've announced retirement. I'm reasonably sure that most are outside the south and in districts that they'd won by single digits.

    I would be less concerned about Clinton drawing out Republicans and more concerned about Obama getting weak support among old-line hard core Democratic voters. I'm seeing it more and more every day.

    The possible Senate pick-ups seem to have numbers not related to the Presidential primary or head to head Presidential polling.  In New Mexico for example Udall (last I saw) had a huge lead over Wilson his probable opponent.  

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#146)
    by dianem on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:22:40 PM EST
    The assumption seems to be that all of the people voting for Obama are "Democrats", but they aren't. A lot of them are "Obamacrats". They don't care about the party... actually, based on what I've read at Daily Kos, many of them are openly hostile to the Democratic Party. They see Obama as the anti-establishment candidate, and the "establishment" are the current crop of Dems. Interesting idea... Obama is the Democratic candidate AND a 3rd party candidate at the same time.

    Parent
    Obama needs new advisors (5.00 / 9) (#23)
    by Step Beyond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:48:07 PM EST
    Their response is that Obama's appeal to a new brand of politics, and his personal poise and self-confidence, will allow him to transcend attacks and stereotypes in ways that Gore and Kerry could not.

    As I've always said, "It takes two to fight. But if you just stand there, it only takes one to beat the crap out of you." That applies if you are transcended or not. :D

    I think Obama is more (4.50 / 2) (#87)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:39:32 PM EST
    charismatic that Kerry or Gore, but strangely I find him more divisive in his approach than anyone in recent memory.  Obviously, Bush turned out to be very divisive, but when he was campaigning in 2000 I don't remember him coming across as divisive. Maybe it is because Obama is a Republican appeaser, I don't know, but it is strange for someone to be so charismatic, yet offensive too.

    Parent
    I do love a good speech (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Step Beyond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:52:23 PM EST
    I agree. I think Obama is a much better speaker than either Gore or Kerry was during their respective runs for the presidency.

    I've tried to block out the 2000 campaign from my memory in order to deny it ever happened so I can't really talk about it. But I don't expect McCain will attack that much. He won't have to. Outside groups will do the attacking. And they can afford to be merciless.

    Parent

    It is weird. I've thought about the same thing. He (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:27:19 PM EST
    sounds so sweetly reasonable -but then his "spokespeople" and goon squad followers start in and it's like the Hitler Youth.  Why IS that?  

    Parent
    it's the ephiphany (none / 0) (#193)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:39:06 PM EST
     "At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you'll say, `I have to vote for Barack.'"

    Haven't you had yours yet?  </snark>

    Parent

    I thought I felt the epiphany once (none / 0) (#194)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:41:57 PM EST
    but then I figured out it was probably more likely connected to the burrito I had for lunch.

    Parent
    because he is the inspiration for a movement. (none / 0) (#225)
    by moll on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 08:54:23 AM EST
    sounds so sweetly reasonable -but then his "spokespeople" and goon squad followers start in and it's like the Hitler Youth.  Why IS that?

    it's because his appeal is to, ironically enough, bitterness.

    He is trying to start a revolution here. CHANGE. You gotta gather together all the people who  can't stand things the way they are.

    Unity means all the people who are disenchanted and want things to be different. The people who are not disenchanted - nobody cares about unity with THEM, unless they wise up and join the "movement".

    THEY are what needs to be "changed".

    Parent

    it's not strangely divisive... (5.00 / 3) (#207)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:37:36 PM EST
    It's pure calculation that to beat Hillary, he needed to not only eviscerate Hillary, but he had to be completely dismissive of the Bill Clinton successes everywhere.

    The whole predicate to his 'gaffe' was that it was the last 20 years, Clinton/Bush years that left the residents of midwestern, small towns embittered and clinging to their church/guns. He is trying to make us all forget the prosperity of the 1990's under Clinton and pretend that it never happened.

    His whole embrace of Reagan foreign policy and uniting Americans is to dismiss the Clinton foreign policy successes.

    It's no surprise that he is being divisive...it's his calculation and purposeful endeavor and the media doesn't call him on it because they aren't fond of the Clintons.

    Parent

    Why? (none / 0) (#89)
    by Step Beyond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:39:40 PM EST
    Who would they think would be convinced by the image/narrative?

    If you are having a discussion on electability, then certainly a lack of experience is an issue that would come up against Obama (rightly or wrongly). To push back with such a naive narrative would not instill any confidence in anyone who wasn't already a supporter. In fact it would reinforce the feeling that Obama doesn't have enough political experience to be successful in the general.

    It just makes him seem less ready to engage in a general election. So it's worse that his advisers would say this and not believe it. Because it serves no purpose and makes their candidate look worse.

    Parent

    I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Step Beyond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:06:46 PM EST
    IMHO, I think the press treatment of Obama has had more to do with their hatred of all things Clinton than it has had to do with Obama or his campaign message. They love Obama because they hate Clinton.

    Nothing binds a group stronger or quicker than hatred of a shared enemy. But it never lasts. And if by some means that shared enemy is removed (like if Clinton loses the primary) then that group will turn on itself. They have made it so they need the enemy and the hatred to maintain the cohesion. They will refocus on a new enemy. With only McCain and Obama to chose from, well things won't look good for Obama "new politics" or not.

    Parent

    The neocon plan (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Lora on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:49:55 PM EST
     
    ...that if Obama is the nominee, a likely Democratic victory would turn to a near-certain defeat.

    There's no such thing as a likely Democratic victory with neocon tricks before, during, and after the election.

    One trick is to help Obama win the nomination -- hence his current Media Darling status.  Hillary is a fighter and is wise to (at least some of)their tricks.  She has a fighting chance, but her victory is by no means likely.

    This (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:55:27 PM EST
    Their response is that Obama's appeal to a new brand of politics, and his personal poise and self-confidence, will allow him to transcend attacks and stereotypes in ways that Gore and Kerry could not.

    has to be the most clueless statement I have ever heard from a political consultant. Somehow it isn't going to work this time because Obama's "special". Ugh. These people must live in the same bubble that some of the blogs live in.

    It's interesting that these things are now being discussed. Lots of Clinton supporters wanted them discussed for quite a while.

    Like we've been trying (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by jen on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:55:41 PM EST
    to tell people all this time... well, better late than later, I guess.

    Also, I couldn't help but notice they leave out women. I'm not so sure about earlier, but I know as time goes on, Obama is losing more and more of our vote, and it seems like the party leaders have forgotten, but women are the largest, loyal block of voters Dems have. But really, we're not that important, so never mind... :-/

    I think we have been (5.00 / 5) (#91)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:41:28 PM EST
    taken for granted more than AAs.  It may not be politically correct to say it, but I really believe that. Not very many people have talked as openly about what women might do if Clinton loses, compared to what AAs will do if Obama does not get the nomination.

    Parent
    you hear a lot about (none / 0) (#181)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:21:34 PM EST
    women's votes being taken for granted here.  The white man chuckle is still ringing in my ears from when Kristol said, "We can't do anything about the women."

    Well, no, you can't--except be afraid of us.  Soccer mom.  Security mom.  Stay at home from the election mom...

    They give us so much power when the word "mom" is used to describe us.  Not so much when we stand on our own.  We shall see...

    Parent

    Don't forget (none / 0) (#183)
    by cmugirl on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:25:55 PM EST
    us single girls!  We've all dated someone like Obama - talks nicely, but really has no clue.

    Parent
    You're the smart ones (none / 0) (#186)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:39:05 PM EST
    . . . so let me say it before Kathy reminds me of saying it here:  Some of us didn't just date guys like that; we married them.  And then -- well, this time, I'm going to avoid going to court to get out of it.  At least, if this election doesn't land in court again.:-)

    Parent
    Women's vote in Florida (none / 0) (#191)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:34:57 PM EST
    I've seen that explained as either (1) Jewish vote, or (2) rural -- for some parts of FL. But there are a lot of older women there. Recall those recent research studies showing that grandmothers are important for the survival of the tribe, due to their experience and judgment (who'd a thunk it!).  

    I'll bet most of the Florida retired women can judge a smooth-talking, handsome candidate pretty well for what he's really worth.

    Parent

    GO HILLARY (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:13:52 PM EST
    I know a LOT of Democrats are going to very grateful she is saying this out loud. We remember, MonKerryAkis all too well.
    Hillary understands that it's NOT just about her.. it's about nominating someone who could win.


    Obama's GE Challanges (5.00 / 5) (#86)
    by Arcadianwind on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:38:48 PM EST
    It's not surprising to hear things like "Well, Obama was just speaking the truth about these small town and rural people." But, what they do not recognize is that such generalizations do not hold up under scrutiny. If you weave a little truth into a layer cake, and then claim that it is truth cake, it misses the mark. One cannot claim that the composition of a thing is defined by a small layer of it.

    Obama himself missed the mark in rationalizing why   he isn't doing well in rural America. Bitterness and clinging are maybe the least of his problems here. Substance(lack of)and hypocrisy are his problem here.

    This is something I posted last week, before this blowup, that is relevant to his predicament.

    If you look at Ohio or even Texas or Florida for that matter, you will see that Hillary won across the expanse of these states, not just NE, SW, or central regions. Obama's wins appear only in heavily urbanized areas. and he doesn't get all of them either. The rural vote, and even the suburban vote, he does not get (in these regions)in any numbers. In Ohio, for instance, In many of the 83 counties he lost in, the margin was not by 8 or 10%, it was 30 or 40 points.

    I think it is clear that Obama does not stack-up well at all against McCain in Ohio, WV, PA, TN or Florida. These are pretty much must win states. Some say it's about race, but it's really more about other factors in the demographics.

    A big part of the puzzle is this:
    In the heartland, Ohio, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Tennessee and Missouri, people are generally a more moderated bunch than the rest of the country. They are less inclined to buy into hype or charisma or fads that  may enrapture elsewhere in America. Smoke and mirrors won't get it done here.

    I have lived and worked here in Ohio for many years. I work in WV and PA as well, and I know the people here, rich, poor, and everywhere in between. Obama cannot win here, ever, or in FL or TN or even MI, that's just the way it is. Game over man....

    I don't see any way his "I have an excuse" speeches will be functional for his redemption, teflon, WORM,  or otherwise.

    if anyone has a plausable scenario (none / 0) (#196)
    by Arcadianwind on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:46:39 PM EST
    where Obama can win any battleground states, other than WI or IL in the GE, then let me hear it.

    Parent
    one false note (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by isaac on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:01:48 PM EST
    in the politico story is that jewish voters are somehow itching to break with dems and embrace the gop, that sounds wishful thinking repug projection bleeding through in an otherwise spot on piece

    Feh (5.00 / 3) (#162)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:36:25 PM EST
    Hey, if the Clinton campaign was really in kitchen sink mode, they would have answered Obama's insulting "invited to tea with the Ambassador" line with "Yeah, but at least the Ambassador didn't offer her a line of blow." See how bad it could get? Just saying. (And in fact, Shaheen was fired when he even went near that topic.)

    Also, I know the Clinton/Rove trope is well regarded  by those who have what passes for analytical rigor in the Obama Fan Base, but really, it's completely false, even defamatory. Rove turned the entire Justice Department into an arm of the Republican National Committee, and got his political opponents sent to jail, for pity's sake. Whatever sins a normal, centrist politician like Hillary has committed, they are not on that scale. And please don't mention "Vince Foster" in your response, mkay? Thanks.

    Good article (4.85 / 7) (#29)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:51:34 PM EST
    Thanks for posting it, Jeralyn.

    I wish the Obama supporters, pundits and bloggers who have been screaming about Hillary's "negative campaign" would heed these words of wisdom:

    In fact, the Democratic race has not been especially rough by historical standards. What's more, our conversations with Democrats who speak to the Clintons make plain that their public comments are only the palest version of what they really believe: that if Obama is the nominee, a likely Democratic victory would turn to a near-certain defeat.

    Far from a no-holds-barred affair, the Democratic contest has been an exercise in self-censorship.

    Can't they see that they're not doing Obama any favors by constantly propping him up?  They're like over-protective parents whose baby will unable to cope in the real world.

    My Gawd (4.80 / 5) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:39:38 PM EST
    Only speaking for myself here and I can't help but feel somewhat glad that Obama is getting a little grilling over the campaign media fires but........ if we'd had a primary about issues instead of perceptions Obama probably wouldn't have a problem with Jewish voters.  If we'd had a primary about issues instead of ambiguous oration Obama probably wouldn't have a problem with working class voters.  If we'd had a primary about issues instead of convincing McCain voters to be a Democrat for a day Obama wouldn't have a problem bleeding support to McCain.  I'm not saying that the article isn't based in truth but it is a truth we didn't need to visit....all the players in this game have literally chosen this reality, from Obama to his supporters to the media and bloggers on down down down.  How many other blogs outside of Talkleft addressed Obama's comments on abortion and gays of late?  In my old age LGBT issues are becoming more and more important to me because I have more friends and family "out" and I've dealt with it AND I'm not sure if any of the other girls have noticed this around here but, if gays are getting politically hacked on - women usually follow within days.  It's like clockwork.  When they run out of people who deserve society's concentration camp they start seeking fresh meat in their debates and moralizations!  Obama seems to be a conservative compassionate.  Please forgive me if I can't stand him any longer but I've just survived 7 years of compassionate conservative and that dude's compassion almost killed me!  The rights of human beings are the rights of human beings and if someone has a hard time grasping that I make no effort to grasp them anymore!

    The primary's not about issues (none / 0) (#117)
    by Korha on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:02:03 PM EST
    Because Obama and Clinton are 99.9% identical on the issues. Gays? Abortion? Iraq? Health care? Economy? Climate change? Energy? Clinton has the same positions as Obama does, which in turn are all solidly within the mainstream of the democratic party. Please educate yourself by going to their websites and reading their policy papers before going on a rant about how Obama is a Bush-like compassionate conservative.

    Parent
    They aren't that identical (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:04:12 PM EST
    Come on........all the pro-lifers couldn't wait to line up with Obama so gimmee a break.  Obama is not as progressive as Clinton is.  There are many issues that just didn't get play that needed to get play and more play.

    Parent
    Obama can't do Iraq without mercs (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:05:07 PM EST
    Hillary can........HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE!

    Parent
    They are 99.9% identical (none / 0) (#147)
    by Korha on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:22:50 PM EST
    Again I point you to their websites and their position papers. I would argue that Obama is marginally less progressive than Clinton on domestic issues while he is marginally more progressive on foreign policy. The key word there is marginally.

    I believe Clinton and Obama have taken essentially the same position on mercenaries in the military. If you have evidence otherwise, please show it.

    Parent

    Clinton has introduced legislation (5.00 / 3) (#170)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:54:34 PM EST
    in the Senate to ban private contractors from security missions in war zones.  Iraq and Afghanistan are currently said war zones.

    Please don't point me to the website to read decade old revamped boilerplate for policies.  I would much rather heat what they have to say during the campaign.  On that point, Obama falls far behind.


    Parent

    No Obama has taken the same (none / 0) (#192)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:38:12 PM EST
    positions as Clinton. It is part of the campaign. Blur the issues line and make them seem the same. Well, health care, which is a big thing is different. He is not even that gun ho for it.

    Parent
    Big differences between em to me (none / 0) (#197)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:59:16 PM EST
    Obama's for coal and nuclear. He voted for Cheney's oil energy plan. Clinton voted against Cheney's plan.

    He's voted time and again to fund the Iraq war (so much for his anti-war rhetoric).

    His Iraq plan has timelines much farther away than Clinton's.

    He's not very interested in turning poverty around. Clinton would have a cabinet-level position for the new "poverty czar."

    He has not held one single hearing though he is Chair of the Senate subcommittee on foreign relations. I think that shows he's lazy at the best and not interested and lazy at the worst. Clinton's held a number of committee hearings in the last few years, and got stuff down.

    Healthcare -- would not cover all.  Would cost more. Clinton's is far more thorough.

    Attended for 20 yrs a church with a pastor who sees no problem in saying "God damn America."   Took said pastor's recordings to college with him to practice with.  

    Favors more restrictions on reproductive choice; Clinton doesn't.

    Wants to continue Blackwater & other mercenaries in Iraq; Clinton wouldn't.

    I could go on, but I think I'm wasting my typing.

    Parent

    i think this whole "they're the same (none / 0) (#211)
    by kangeroo on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:18:36 PM EST
    on the issues" talking point is now outdated and ought to be retired.  and for god's sake, please stop directing us to obama's website--a wholly unreliable source with a demonstrated penchant for metamorphosizing (esp. scrubbing inflammatory content) in unpredictable ways in response to media and blogosphere events throughout this campaign.  i barely have time to wonder how to deal with politicians who actually have a stance on something; i don't have time to be taking screen shots of everything i read on obama's content-shapeshifting website in order to establish that he has (or oftentimes, had) a stance in order to then address it.  a little less prevarication would be nice.

    Parent
    It is a great article (4.75 / 4) (#90)
    by facta non verba on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:40:13 PM EST
    well written and reasoned and backed up with data but it is not new.

    Obama has turned off enough people in various constituencies that when taken as a whole, we are looking at a Dukakis type defeat.

    Hispanics, Asian-Americans, women over 50, the LGBT community, the Jewish community, rank & file Democrats, disnfranchised Democrats in MI and FL, some progressives will either vote for Nader, McCain or not vote at all in greater numbers than they would do so otherwise. Then there is the Bradley Effect will have an effect in states from Missiouri to Pennslyvania to West Virigia to Ohio and Michigan. All must states for the Democratic Party.

    Florida even for Clinton would be a miracle, for Obama it is a pipe dream. New Jersey is for Clinton but in McCain v Obama, McCain takes NJ. When the Democrats have to defend NJ, what's next defending California? Obama likely takes California but he will have to spend more money here than otherwise thus siphoning resources needed elsewhere.

    Right on.. (none / 0) (#198)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:00:06 PM EST
    Obama has put MA in play, for crying out loud. Deval is not sitting well here, and I think Kerry and Teddy are going to find out they jumped the gun foolishly. This just goes to show you that the democratic party is quite adept at hosing itself.

    Parent
    I don't see any kitchen sink here (4.50 / 2) (#17)
    by jussumbody on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:46:06 PM EST
    I'm sure the Clintons are leaking this which isn't good, but at least they are not leaking the "radioactive" stuff.  Not because I'm afraid it will hurt Obama (cuz it will hurt him one way or the other, when the R's do it), but it would hurt Hillary more if she was behind it.

    I just find it very troubling that the Obamabots are so anxious that Hillary throw in the towel.  Basically they want to penalize the states that are holding their primaries too late, while simultaneously penalizing the states that jumped the gun (Florida and Michigan).

    As for Metoothen, above, you're kind of incoherent so I'm not entirely sure what your point is.  But I gather you are for Obama, and I don't think you're helping your candidate by repeating that "bitter" remark as if it was a good thing.

    You might want to ponder how much of Obama's wins have come from states that will not be voting for any Democrat in November, and how poorly he is doing among Jews, Hispanics and gays and working class whites.  You can call them/us haters all day and it may be true in some/many instances, but you're not exactly motivating the Democratic base Obama will need, nor spreading a message of "Hope".  The black vote and the young, white college educated vote just might not be enough to carry you thru, so quit burning your candidate's bridges.

    Unfortunately... (4.20 / 5) (#30)
    by dianem on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:53:11 PM EST
    Obama HAS been throwing the kitchen sink at Clinton. He has convinced a lot of people that she is a racist Republican-lite who has no worthwhile experience and no values. I think that she has been tarred to the point that it is unlikely that she could win the Presidency against McCain. I still support her because I think she has shown a resiliance that makes it POSSIBLE for her to win, while he has shown no such resiliance. Every time something comes up against Obama, his approval ratings drop 10 points overnight, then gradually rebound. All the right has to do is save one big attack for the week before the election and they win.

    The only way we can be reasonably certain of a victory in November is a Clinton/Obama ticket. This would wipe the stain from Clinton, prevent the right from using Obama's negatives (nobody cares about minor flaws in VP's), and draw a widely diverse group of voter's to the polls on election day to support the first woman/black man ticket in U.S. history. Obama's supporters would complain, but if he makes the choice to run as VP that would mute the grumbling. And in a few years, Obama will run again - but then he will be a seasoned political veteran with a trusted reputation.

    I keep going back and forth (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:57:01 PM EST
    thinking that Clinton/Obama would be the best idea, then being afraid that Obama is too toxic to even be the VP candidate.

    Perhaps another reason for Clinton's restraint is to leave that door open for Obama as Veep at the convention.

    Parent

    I think Obama is getting too toxic (none / 0) (#160)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:33:49 PM EST
    and he seems like he might be uninterested as VP. For that matter, how long would the Presidency interest him? His longevity track record isn't too impressive.

    Parent
    The Clinton Prediction Track Record (2.00 / 4) (#47)
    by Oliver Willis on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:07:43 PM EST
    I seem to remember that she told us this election would all be wrapped up by Super Tuesday as well. Pardon me if Sen. Clinton who has gotten the major issue of the last couple years isn't my go to for predicting the general election.

    This isn't restraint. This is a campaign in its death throes thrashing about for life, and not finding any, choosing to sabotage the party.

    Wow (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:35:06 PM EST
    Is that really your substantive response Oliver? I believe and have argued that Obama is more electable.

    There is a better argument to be made for Obama than you seem capable of making. What a terrible comment.

    Parent

    She did? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Democratic Cat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:46:20 PM EST
    I missed it. You got a link?

    I don't think Sen. Clinton is the only one worried about Sen. Obama's electability.

    Parent

    Hillary Clinton: like Kryptonite to (none / 0) (#138)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:19:01 PM EST
    Democrats for a day; like Superman to the working poor.

    Parent
    Agree on death throes (none / 0) (#153)
    by Marvin42 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:25:45 PM EST
    But I think you got the wrong candidate. I can't believe how quickly Obama is self destructing. I thought he would get the nomination FIRST then pull this. There is hope yet.

    Parent
    Does anyone think (none / 0) (#173)
    by cmugirl on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:57:59 PM EST
    that if Obama wins the nomination, he and his supporters are going to be looking at Hillary to go out and stump enthusiastically for him?  And if, being the good Democrat she is, goes out, and continues to outshine him, the blogosphere is still going to hate her?  My prediction is she and Bill will become the greatest asset the campaign ever had.

    Hopefully HRC is our nominee...Sigh

    Parent

    "the party"? you're right... (none / 0) (#212)
    by kangeroo on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:45:57 PM EST
    if you mean the kool-aid party--and even that she hasn't done all that rigorously.  but i'm curious, oliver, as to who exactly is in this "party" you reference?  because last time i checked, it's increasingly alienating more groups than it includes.

    a passage comes to mind, from a book that them thar gun-toting, bible-thumping rubes like so much:
    "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?  How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?  You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."  Matthew 7:3-5

    but in agreeing with said message, i'm sure you'll find a way to relegate me--an agnostic, non-white, pro-gun-control, pro-trade, immigrant, proudly naturalized citizen and loyal democrat in liberal-elite-SF--to the dustbin of bothersome and ignorant archie bunker types who aren't welcome in your "party"...  or who are just too dumb to see WWTSBQ? (for our own good, of course.)  well garsh, as some would say, "okie doke."

    it's funny how so many things obama and his supporters continue to say about supposed heretics of my ilk--aka obama-skeptics--only underscore the urgent need for a mirror, stat.  oh sure, there's a growing intolerance and "antipathy to people who aren't like them," all right--but it's funny to see who turns out to be leading this brave new movement...

    Parent

    p.s. (none / 0) (#214)
    by kangeroo on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:00:31 PM EST
    i just recently (surprisingly late, i know) finished reading animal farm, and was startled to find the story's lessons remarkably fresh and apropos today.  it was a nice, eye-widening reminder of how not-so-new (indeed, quite familiar and recycled) the dazzling obama phenomenon really is.

    Parent
    And Where Exactly Did She Say That? (none / 0) (#216)
    by Blue Jean on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:19:40 PM EST
    Give me the exact time, date and location she said that (yes, her, not her campaign.  Not her husband.  Not her supporters. Not her enemies. Not some mind-reading mediaocrat.)

    Tell me when SHE said that, and provide the link to verify it, please.  Otherwise, you're just blowin' smoke.

    Parent

    Are you so sure (none / 0) (#22)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:47:58 PM EST
    about the 3 states you mention? I might have to differ with you on them having lived in two of them.  

    I See the Village Has Realized (none / 0) (#35)
    by BDB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:56:11 PM EST
    the continued primary season is good for their business.  

    I can't take any analysis from The Politico seriously.  It's The Politico.

    Have there been any more polls... (none / 0) (#36)
    by gmo on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:56:29 PM EST
    ...to answer the question of which groups of voters are more likely to defect?  

    In particular, I'd like to see that data from key states for Obama's EV victory (New Mexico, Pennsylvania,  Washington,  Oregon).  

    Add Wisconsin (none / 0) (#54)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:15:47 PM EST
    where we go to church more than most, and then go hunting.  I cannot imagine that Obama would win it big in Wisconsin now . . . if at all.

    What I fear, it being Wisconsin with its history on women in politics as well as it being so close here last time -- and with all the Obama trashing of Clinton -- is that it would be McCain's for the taking now.

    Parent

    the horse race (none / 0) (#42)
    by dem08 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:02:19 PM EST
    I read the Politico arguments, including the argument that Obama would never win because of his now-famous SF remarks. (I am surprised Obama is able to keep his Senate seat after that awful insult, but that is another story.)

    Here is what I don't understand: Why can't The Clinton's get above 50% nationally? Bill did not and Hillary has high negatives that indicate she will never hit that 50% mark.

    I think the answer is that many people do not like them and do not trust them and that The Clinton's have given voters ample reason not to trust them and not to like them. For the sake of readers of this blog, I hope your candidate gets the nomination, but I think Clinton Fatigue is real, so wait until you see what those wise men over at Politico say about Candidate Hillary vs. POW McCain, the plain talking, working stiff maverick everyman.

    The best strategy for backers of The Clinton's, of whom I was once one, is to attack the other candidates. But that doesn't ever seem to boost The Clinton's themselves above 50%. Unless someone else runs, how will Hillary get 50 % of the votes?

    Obama won't either, but that doesn't mean Hillary will.

    Let's assume that the rampant sexism is responsible for Hillary's enduring unpopularity, and not anything Hillary does or has done. It still doesn't answer why Bill was so hated and why the good will he had earned after his presidency vanished so quickly this cycle. And I mean 50% of the vote. It is easy for people to say they favor Bill even while he was being impeached for something he actually did do, that is lie under oath and in public to all of us.

    If Obama had dropped out, the Politico article would talk about Edwards and how his lifestyle and background made him unelectable. No matter who runs for the Democrats, it is either a person with huge down sides or one of The Clinton's.

    I hope I am not around to see Chelsea run, but she will be 35 in 2016 I read somewhere.

    The Unelect-ability argument is hardly something to celebrate for Democrats, and it certainly doesn't make Hillary more attractive except to those who already are on her side.

    And make no mistake: you either for The Clinton's or you are against them.

    It is sad politics and I understand why routinely in my college classes 90 per cent of the young people who are eligible do not vote.

    Clinton Fatigue (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:16:16 PM EST
    is only real in certain parts, mostly media.

    If the Clintons were as hated, mistrusted and divisive as some claim them to be, then she would not still be in this primary election.

    The super d's have not pushed her out because, obviously, they still believe she is viable.

    Parent

    Kathy, I've been thinking about Clinton fatique... (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:30:24 PM EST
    ..and I think I had an epiphany this morning watching Tim Russert take a sip of the kool aid. I think that the media feels foolish for beating the drum for Bush and an unpopular war. They want to "atone" by seeing a democrat elected. But it is simply beyond the pale for them to support a Clinton. So they must make sure that Obama is the nominee. Otherwise they will be forced to support the Iraq war again in the person of McCain, which they no longer want to do. And the reason why they cannot support a Clinton is because of that other sin that they committed for which they refuse to atone, persecuting the Clintons and egging the Republicans to peep into our bedrooms. You know that some people hate most those whom they've wronged most. That's why the media hates the Clintons IMHO. And they will never let up.

    Parent
    Maria (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:50:56 PM EST
    yet again, I agree with you.  They don't want to be reminded of their past bad acts.

    I think the one thing that makes it most difficult for them to swallow Clinton succeeding is that she will still work with her enemies so long as there is a common cause.  She has shown this again and again by reaching out to people who persecuted her and, in some cases, winning them over.

    Again, showing that she is the one who can unite folks.

    Parent

    Huh? Bill had very high favorables (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:17:51 PM EST
    of 65%, as I recall, at the end of his presidency  that Obama thinks were so bad for us.  So I stopped there and would want you to support your info with evidence, a source, something, before reading more.

    Parent
    As the PA truck driver asked... (5.00 / 4) (#127)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:08:28 PM EST
    ... What don't you like about the Clintons?

    The peace? Or the prosperity?

    I'd settle for some Clinton fatigue right now. At least I'd have a job, and bonus points if the "creative class" would STFU.

    Parent

    I'm officially kicking those posers (none / 0) (#158)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:31:06 PM EST
    OUT of the "creative class". Un-productive over-active imaginations don't qualify, imo  ;)


    Parent
    My goodness (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:19:12 PM EST
    Do you think that happened in a vacuum?

    Bill's ratings came tumbling down along with Hillary's as a direct result of being repeatedly personally trashed by the Obama campaign, with a strong media echo, as race-baiters and "will say anything to win," blah, blah, blah.

    If Hillary manages to end up with the nomination and Obama and his minions have to stop trashing her, she and Bill will, I'm reasonably confident, be able to make up a good deal of that.

    Similar attacks by McCain I don't think will have as much traction because the country has heard it from Republicans since the world began.  The Obamas were the first Dems to do it, and it had an effect among Democrats.

    Parent

    Actually, (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by cmugirl on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:02:09 PM EST
    In the most recent polling, Obama's favorability ratings are under 50% as well. He and Hillary are statistically tied for unfavorability, although hers have remained virtually static, while his have fluctuated and tended to trend downwards.

    People are realizing the emperor has no clothes.

    Parent

    it's funny about that emperor parable... (none / 0) (#221)
    by kangeroo on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:20:25 PM EST
    it reminds me yet again of this mirror-begging phenomenon from obama supporters:  i saw several blogs use that same parable about hillary & bill a few months ago, and i remember feeling surprised, confused, and annoyed at the time.  well after watching the pattern play out over the past few months, i finally understand it now.  it's the fine art of mirror-begging (adapted from question-begging):  i.e., fallaciously assuming--by projecting your own candidate's worst traits on others--the spotlessness of your own reflection (the answer), which of course avoids the mirror (evades the question).  reminds me of another great quote:

    "It is no use to blame the looking glass if your face is awry."  --Nikolai Gogol

    Parent

    Ahem, Bill was so hated & had high negatives? (none / 0) (#200)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:07:13 PM EST
    He left office with the highest favorable rating in several decades for any departing president.

    Sure, the Repugs (political types and plain ol citizens) didn't like him. But most of the voters remember the budget surplus, the increased jobs, and I think HRC will benefit from that.

    Plus -- betcha she gets more Repub votes in a GE than expected -- from R voters who just happen to be female.

    Parent

    This is so funny to me (none / 0) (#44)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:03:59 PM EST
    As I've noted earlier this prognosticating about November by the HRC team is amusing.  

    This Politico piece is so not revealing.

    If there are hard core HRC supporters who are genuinely falling for this consider: Obama/Rendell08, or some other strategic VP, or Hagel/Powell/other Rs supporting BO.  Does anyone deny that HRC's support is bolstered because some voters see that WJC will help her.  I've heard a couple dozen (approx) person on the street interviews, and a lot of people support HRC because of her husband, so voters do look at the whole team.  And, there are a lot of ways that BO can put together enough states to win the GE in November.  I don't know why people can't see that this HRC analysis is an effort in manipulation, not information.

    But, whatever floats your boat.

    She also gets to pick a VP. (none / 0) (#55)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:16:11 PM EST
    Plus she has Bill. Advantage: HRC

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#53)
    by myed2x on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:15:39 PM EST
    She made the argument that Sen. Barack Obama's comments could cost the party the election and that the party has been seen as out of touch by male candidates in the past. Clinton also criticized Obama for not "owning up to his remarks."
    --

    So let me keep repeating it over and over again whilst taking a typically Republican stand-point on the whole affair, that'll repair everything...what a joke.

    Oh and then let me contort the reality of it and lie as well...he did own up, what he said is understandable when you have the blinders off, I know tough for this crowd.

    He owned up after he was caught... (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:21:59 PM EST
    ...but few people have really addressed what has bothered me more about this whole thing than the comments themselves. Isn't anybody else troubled that Barack Obama says snarky things about blue collar workers to an audience of "rich white people?" The irony of that is amazing to me. He is truly a paradox and he certainly has succeeded in unifying his supporters who apparently used to hate each other. Maybe he needs to speak to a private group of blue collar workers and make fun of his big donors. That might bring them into the fold. As I was telling my husband the other day, why doesn't Barack Obama ever pander to me?

    Parent
    what's the problem, "sweetie"? (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:25:55 PM EST
    why doesn't Barack Obama ever pander to me?

    See, Clinton's voters will vote for him, but his voters won't vote for her.  Ipso facto, you-and I-are already checked off the list.

    This is what he does: he alienates one group to pander to NC, then he alienates the NC group to pander to CA.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

    Parent

    Oops was that supposed to be a pander to me? (none / 0) (#75)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:31:45 PM EST
    ...and here I was waiting for him to endorse true universal health care, since he has basically co-opted most of Hillary's other positions, why not the one I care about most?

    Parent
    check out this woman (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jen on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:47:35 PM EST
    caller to C-Span, posted at No Quarter. She nails it.

    Parent
    This lady is 100% wrong (none / 0) (#126)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:07:35 PM EST
    he didn't say that bitter people cling to guns and religion and don't like people that don't look like them.  Go read the quote if you're confused.

    This clip only proves that HRC supporters will use manipulation rather than facts.

    Parent

    OFB fails to put toothpaste back in tube (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:18:34 PM EST
    Let's go to the tape. What Obama said:

    [OBAMA]... successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

    What the lady said:

    He said what he said...

    He said bitter people cling to God and guns, and don't like people that [don't] look like them.

    That is  what he said, and he said it in an environment where he was seeking money, and he meant what he said when he said it and I do not accept his apology or his explanation.


    I'd say she heard what Obama said quite accurately.

    Hey, she's from FL, too. Think when Obama disenfranchised her by blocking a revote, that went down real well? I'm guessing no.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#159)
    by Lora on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:33:11 PM EST
    Obama said that people in small-town communities where the jobs have been gone for 25 years and are not coming back, despite promises from previous administrations, they get bitter and cling to etc.

    That is different from saying that bitter people cling to etc.

    In the first instance (Obama's), getting bitter and clinging to etc happen together as a result of no jobs and empty promises.

    In the second instance (Florida woman), because people are bitter they cling to etc.

    Parent

    wow (none / 0) (#166)
    by isaac on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:51:15 PM EST
    i'm not even sure that's english

    Parent
    You forget that (none / 0) (#164)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:49:33 PM EST
    saying you're wonderful and stupid is different than saying you're wonderful or stupid.

    Big difference.

    And he spend a paragraph describing who may be bitter and it wasn't "people."

    Parent

    The people weren't "bitter"? (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:52:44 PM EST
    What was "bitter" then? The Starbucks latte?

    Really, guys, it's OK with me if you want to flail on this. Keep digging!

    Parent

    This from you, 1jpb, after your claim (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:21:36 PM EST
    in your comment above that Clinton said anything about Kenya, pagans, etc.

    You are not only a liar, you are a bad liar.  And that may make you hot stuff on other blogs, but you will not get far here.

    Parent

    What is this? (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:24:56 PM EST
    You're telling me not to believe my lying eyes?

    Parent
    where is a quote? n/t (none / 0) (#165)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:50:40 PM EST
    Both quotes are supplied above (none / 0) (#171)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:54:51 PM EST
    At #137.

    Want a shovel? Here ya go!

    Parent

    That's the point :Two different quotes n/t (none / 0) (#174)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:01:19 PM EST
    The lady is 100% right (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by waldenpond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:28:35 PM EST
    where do you get off telling someone that their opinion is wrong?  She is entitles to her opinion.  Some are going to explain away Obama's words, but guess what.... some people find them offensive.  If the words were not inappropriate, no one would be discussing them.

    Everybody has read the quotes in several articles, seen them at least 10 times on tv, heard citizen responses, etc.  As the teevee reported, elitists and certain Democrats were going to say the words were true.

    Parent

    where is a quote? n/t (1.00 / 1) (#167)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:51:30 PM EST
    I've read the quote (none / 0) (#172)
    by jen on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:55:12 PM EST
    and so did the woman on C-Span. Her reaction to what he said was that he thinks people in small town America are bigots. That's what she took from what he said, and she felt he meant it. I think he did, too. I think he is as racist as they come.


    Parent
    Thank you, I'm (none / 0) (#176)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:04:48 PM EST
    not denying that people have opinions, even if I disagree with them.  But, folks don't get to makeup facts, and misquote people.

     

    Parent

    W.O.R.M. (none / 0) (#201)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:11:07 PM EST
    seems to be a frequently used tactic.

    Sorry, I really shouldn't feed them, I know. No more.

    Parent

    Wasn't yesterday nice (none / 0) (#217)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:34:03 PM EST
    in the Emerald city?  I had the door open for quite a while.

    Parent
    Doesn't matter what you think he said (none / 0) (#208)
    by echinopsia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:39:49 PM EST
    This is what that woman and most other people heard.

    It's perception.

    People believe what they hear. Doing WORM isn't going to change that for anybody but Obama supporters.

    Parent

    Oh, I am so enjoying the thought (none / 0) (#69)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:27:06 PM EST
    of your event for Obama with blue-collar folks, again secretly taped, and said tapes then shown at a gathering at the Getty mansion before billionaires.

    I would hope that the tape would include working folks laughing their a**es off at Obama's deep sociological analysis of why rich folks just don't get it.  An instant hit on Youtube, youbetcha.

    Parent

    Here is Fox looking for (1.00 / 1) (#119)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:02:57 PM EST
    a "man on the street" reaction to BO's comments.  

    This was probably not what some would expect.

    As an aside, yesterday I saw this same Fox News interviewer on Geraldo where she was trying to lead the owner (not in video above) of this diner to disparage BO, but instead the guy talked about how money was tight in the community.

    But, at least HRC still reminds us that her father is not a Kenyan pagan; she's hoping that will get her some votes.  Yikes!

    Parent

    Fox found a Clinton voter in this guy (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:19:55 PM EST
    or a McCain voter?  Not clear -- but you did look at the whole first video link to hear him say he will not vote for Obama, correct?

    As for your second link, your claim that Clinton said words anything like Kenya or pagan is such appalling crap on your part that you now have entered the ranks of idjits to read here just to see how low Obamans can go.  You hit bottom.

    Parent

    that's only like the 2nd or 3rd time... (none / 0) (#209)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:41:42 PM EST
    he's put the same link on TL today...

    sneaky desperation

    Parent

    But unfortunately, it may not matter.... (none / 0) (#58)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:17:10 PM EST
    ...right now I am watching CNN ballot bowl and they are trying like hell to turn this around on Hillary. She's rich, you know, and therefore has no right to try to appeal to Blue Collar voters. Even their embedded reporter with the Clinton campaign is an Obama apologist. Its so pathetic that its almost funny. Is our party doomed? They won't listen.

    BTDs opinion made real (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by waldenpond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:56:16 PM EST
    that the media will not go after him for anything....  doesn't BTD hold that this will stay the case and that is what makes Obama electable?  If the media won't cover it, the average voter will see the campaign package through the eyes of the media who loves him.  

    I'm the opposite.  I found the media nauseating myself and it's why I tried to find net sites.  I just couldn't take it anymore.

    Maybe I'm low knowledge because I refuse to accept the media will never be mean to Obama? :) Maybe I'm just 'clinging' to hope and my bitterness towards the media will fade.

    Parent

    They've turned the knobs up to 11... (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:27:52 PM EST
    ... but I think that's because they know they're not being listened to.

    The lady from FL above, in the part of the transcript I did not quote, says something along the lines of "he can spin it as much as he wants, and the media will help him...." People really are not dumb. They know the score. Remember that Clinton's numbers were never higher than during the impeachment, and that was after they knew about Monica.

    Parent

    Thread cleaned (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:17:15 PM EST
    and three commenters have been banned. Comments in response to their comments have also been deleted as the thread wouldn't make sense with them.

    Gloves coming off... (none / 0) (#67)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:26:48 PM EST
    and good for her. Haven't we been hearing for months how SHE is destroying the Democratic Party by merely continuing to run against Obama?

    And no, this is not about HRC herself - she really believes that Obama will lose the nomination.

    She said several times that the most important thing to her was a Democratic president in 2009. I think she is as scared as many of us are of a McCain Presidency. He is a hothead and a neocon who wants to "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" and stay in Iraq for 100 years. He doesn't know the difference between Sunni and Shi'a and that Shi'a Iran does not support Sunni Al-Qaeda.

    This election must not be lost by the Democrats. The future of our nation hangs in the balance.

    Joe Klein says that Hillary (none / 0) (#68)
    by maritza on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:27:04 PM EST
    has general election challenges as well.

    http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/04/the_case_against_obama.html

    I think Hillary will have a very difficult chance of winning the General Election with out the African-American vote.

    anyone who thinks Clinton (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:32:07 PM EST
    will lose the aa vote by wide margins is completely deluded.

    I suppose it'll mostly come down to Obama, who will have many, many mea culpas to say after he loses.  Can you imagine walking back into the senate after all of this and taking his seat again as the junior senator from IL?

    Did y'all see Tavis Smiley left the Tom Joyner show?

    Parent

    please don't go off topic (none / 0) (#82)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:33:58 PM EST
    If Obama isn't the nominee or the Vice President (none / 0) (#92)
    by maritza on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:42:00 PM EST
    than Hillary will lose the African-American vote for sure.

    In order to win some of these swing states, any Democrat will need a high African-American voter turnout.

    If Obama isn't the nominee or the VP if there was a Clinton/Obama ticket, than the African-American vote will be suppressed.

    Parent

    Of course she has challenges (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:32:49 PM EST
    but Obama's campaign doesn't want to admit that he does. He will simply "transcend" them.

    I believe that HRC can overcome her challenges, seeing that she has done so successfully for the past 16 years. In contrast, I don't see Obama overcoming anything, nor do I see a strong track record of winning tough elections against the rightwing slime machine.

    Parent

    Clinton does not a track record (none / 0) (#135)
    by Korha on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:17:00 PM EST
    of winning tough elections against the rightwing slime machine. Please don't equate her and her husband--they are different people with different political strengths and weaknesses. Clinton is losing the democratic primary that should have been a walk in the park for her, mostly due to her campaign's strategic incompetence. She has extremely high unfavorable/favorable ratings in the general election. She has not overcome anything; the rightwing slime machine worked and worked very well.

    At this point I have little confidence that either Clinton or Obama will win the general election.


    Parent

    Repeat (none / 0) (#179)
    by cmugirl on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:07:40 PM EST
    Clinton and Obama have practically the same favorability / unfavorability ratings, so the argument that she has huge unfavorability ratings in the GE is not correct.

    Parent
    losing primaries (none / 0) (#203)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:14:29 PM EST
    like California, New York, Ohio, Texas, FL, MI.     Right.  

    Parent
    This is ridiculous analysis from Politico imo (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:33:20 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton has big state advantages sure. But  this critque borders on parody. Obama has advantages that simply can not be denied in some states, particularly in the West.

    And Obama has the overwhelming Media advantage over Clinton.

    Even now, he is more electable.

    very much disagree (5.00 / 7) (#93)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:42:13 PM EST
    when it comes to the general election. I doubt he will take Colorado and he certainly won't take Wyoming, Idaho or Montana.

    Colorado has voted Democratic in Presidential elections only three times since Franklin Roosevelt's candidacies: Clinton-Gore in '92; Johnson-Humphrey in '64; and Truman-Barkley in '48.

    As to Nevada, since 1964, Nevada has voted for the Republican Presidential ticket, except for Clinton-Gore in 1992 and 1996.

    New Mexico: In 2004, the Republican Presidential ticket carried the state by approximately 6,800 votes (less than 1%). In 2000, the Democratic Presidential ticket carried the state by 365 votes (.006 percentage points). Bill Clinton and Al Gore carried the state by almost 8% in 1996 and by 9% in 1992. Hillary won New Mexico, however slightly, and Obama doesn't have much Hispanic support. Many may view McCain as not being bad on immigration.

    Dems are also vulnerable in Michigan ,Minnesota, New Hampshire,  Oregon,  Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin which went Dem in 2004.

    Parent

    I agree with you.. (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by alexei on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:24:02 PM EST
    plus, Obama would not have any advantage in the GE since McCain is the real Media darling. All of Obama's "dirty laundry" will be spewed out non-stop by this Media and the Repubs 527's.  The only chance the Democrats have to win in November is with Clinton.  Obama just keeps on giving to the Repubs and they know it.

    I posted earlier about it was Bill Clinton who opened the Western states to Democrats in 1992 and that also was when the economy was not so good.  Well, we have another Clinton (and Bill) and the economy is worse.  My prediction is that the economy will trump any baggage the Clintons have as well as the huge national Media bias.  It is the economy stupid and the last time that happened, a Clinton was elected, governed well and the economy improved.  And one of the driving forces will be Hillary's "Green Collar" jobs and business program.

    Parent

    But doesn't Clinton now have... (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by gmo on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:53:03 PM EST
    ...an even stronger advantage in PA & OH?

    Looking at a couple EV calculators, Obama needs PA & OH as part of his winning strategy (which excludes FL & MI, but includes most of Clinton's big state advantages).   (Please correct me if I'm wrong on whether you think PA & OH are part of Obama's strategy).

    To me, this is a pretty darn big dent in his strategy.  RCP's poll averages show Clinton beating McCain in PA & OH, but McCain defeating Obama in both.  (I'd also be curious to see how these comments play out in the working class parts of Oregon).

    Doesn't losing even more support in OH & PA, even in light of all the overwhelmingly positive media coverage Obama's been receiving, now make him less electable?

    Parent

    I don't think he carries any weight in the (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:53:39 PM EST
    West.  I do think Politico found a way to go somewhat sensational though without looking like idiots and everyone will go read it because it is so sensational.  It is what the media has been doing to Clinton only this time Politico gave Obama the full treatment instead.

    Parent
    The Politico Is a Joke (5.00 / 6) (#113)
    by BDB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:59:33 PM EST
    But I'm very worried at how badly Obama's campaign has handled this issue.  The tendency to dig in, when the political implications of this should've been immediately clear, is troubling and reminiscent to the campaign's initial reactions to other non-Clinton related issues (his Reagan praise, Goolsbee/NAFTA, and even Wright).   I'd feel better if he had a history of being able to beat Republicans other than Alan Keyes.  But his history is being able to beat other Democrats.  There's no track record of whether he knows how to beat tough Republicans on, really, any level, much less in a presidential.

    Obama's campaign has become, it seems to me, dependent on the media's good will and CDS.   That's very dangerous for any Democrat in the general.   I know you think he's a media darling, but he's not going to get nearly as good media in the general (maybe better than Clinton, but not as good as he's gotten in the primary) and there won't be any McCain Derangement Syndrome except of the media worship variety.  He has yet to prove he can win a big state or clinch the nomination with the media in his pocket, given his struggles putting what are essentially minor political mistakes to rest with good media, how will he do it against McCain?  

    Because when all else fails, Obama seems to rely on CDS to try to pull him through.  Here's the latest from his campaign this morning, via The Page:

    Hari Sevugan, spokesman for Obama for America, released the following statement in response to remarks delivered by Senator Clinton this morning in Indianapolis:
    "We won't be lectured on being out of touch by Senator Clinton, who believes lobbyists represent real people and is awash in their money and who can't tell a straight story about her lengthy record of supporting trade deals like NAFTA and China that have devastated communities in Pennsylvania and Indiana.  She won't change the broken Washington system that all too often leaves American workers behind, but Barack Obama will."

    Look, over there, it's a Clinton.  Go get her.  Reminiscent of what they tried with Wright.   But that's not a sustainable strategy.

    Clinton has won big primaries with incredibly hostile media and being outspent 4 to 1.  If Obama's media darling status can't knock her out, how is it going to knock out McCain?


    Parent

    Digging in what they do.. (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by Camorrista on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:52:39 PM EST
    The tendency to dig in, when the political implications of this should've been immediately clear, is troubling and reminiscent to the campaign's initial reactions to other non-Clinton related issues (his Reagan praise, Goolsbee/NAFTA, and even Wright)

    This is key, I think, to one of the greater vulnerabilities of Senator Obama in the general election.

    Neither his campaign nor his admirers seem ever able to acknowledge error.  No matter what tactless (or, dare one say it? offensive) thing he says, his camp insists that the remark wasn't tactless (or offensive) but that the listener(s) simply didn't get it.  The camp then (1) explains the remark(s); and (2) attacks Senator Clinton for bringing it up (even if she didn't bring it up).

    This tactic satisfies Obama's supporters--and until now has satisfied the political press--but I'm not sure it will work in the general election.  After all, for nearly 8 years we've lived with (under?) a president who can't admit error, and everybody in the country other than Bush's acolytes knows where that's gotten us.  (And, no I'm not comparing Obama to Bush--except in this strain of temperament.)  Is the country really ready for another leader who claims he's always right and those who question him are always wrong?

    For a long time, we've been told about Senator Clinton's voter "ceiling;" now, we're beginning to learn that perhaps Obama has a ceiling, too, and it may be no higher than Clinton's.  Let'pray not.

    Parent

    Yes, he backtracked four times yesterday (none / 0) (#187)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:43:01 PM EST
    with different apologies . . . although some were not apologies and made it worse, I think.  But we will see, if and when the discourse catches up to look at some of those comments.

    First rule: Don't beat a dead horse.  Bury it, and even if it comes back up, maybe the manure will have made it smell like roses.

    Parent

    Track record? (none / 0) (#130)
    by Korha on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:12:08 PM EST
    Clinton has no track record of winning tough races in either a primary or a general election. And no Hillary Clinton's campaign is not in any way the same as Bill Clinton's--this primary has proved that, unfortunately. Look how Clinton handled the Tuzla thing.

    Bottom line is that gaffes are inevitable. But Obama and Clinton's gaffes are magnified because of the continued primary while McCain can say anything he wants and get away with it. It's a disaster.

    Parent

    Give me a break! (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by ghost2 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:17:01 PM EST
    tough races?

    there is the NY 2000 Senate race.

    There is NH, NV, TX, and OH, under extremely hostile media and being outspent 4 to 1.  

    She DOES win tough races.  That's her biggest strength.  

    Obama supporters don't realize that Politico is dead on money in one case.  She doesn't go after Obama with full force, but she would after McCain.

    Parent

    This primary doesn't count (none / 0) (#163)
    by Korha on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:36:26 PM EST
    Because she hasn't won it yet. Obama also has lots of impressive individual states under his belt, but they don't count because he hasn't won the overall primary, either.

    I dispute that the NY 2000 Senate race was tough. She had the whole national democratic machine behind her and her opponents were Guiliani and Lazio, two incompetent buffoons. Yes they outspent her, but after all she ended up beating Lazio by over 10 points (on the coattails of Gore, who beat Bush by 25%). I agree that Clinton performed impressively in the race, especially for a first-time political candidate. But the electoral dynamics of it were not actually tough. She always should have been favored to win.  

    Parent

    And then she got relected by 67% , (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by eleanora on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:05:29 PM EST
    which required strong gains in some very Republican areas of NY. She's a hard worker, a long-distance runner, which would serve us well in the GE.

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#202)
    by Korha on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:13:07 PM EST
    The 2006 New York Senate race was not tough, either. In fact quite the opposite.

    IMO Hillary Clinton has yet to show that she can win a tough contested election. If you want to take it on faith that she has what it takes to win the general election, fine--the same goes for Obama supporters. Myself I don't have any illusions about the challenges facing our party. Neither Clinton nor Obama have demonstrated any ability that they can take on the Republicans and survive. The election's very much up in the air at this point.

    Parent

    The 2000 Senate race (none / 0) (#132)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:13:06 PM EST
    was a tough race.

    Parent
    good post! (none / 0) (#134)
    by ghost2 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:14:14 PM EST
    What would have to happen (none / 0) (#94)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:43:10 PM EST
    for Clinton to be more electable in the GE than Obama, in your eyes. Or do you see it as an impossiblity at this point?

    Parent
    Maybe so (none / 0) (#108)
    by Korha on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:56:56 PM EST
    But it doesn't really matter if Obama is "more electable" than Clinton if, in fact, neither of them will actually win against John McCain. Which is what is happening as the primary continues on indefinitely. If one of them had dropped out in March, I think we would almost certainly be well on our way to defeating McCain. As it is now I think the Politico case against Obama is convincing--and the counter-case against Clinton is ALSO convincing. This goes far beyond both of their immense electoral weaknesses, it's also about growing party division, how we're not building up an infrastructure in swing states, how McCain is getting a free pass, and just generally losing a huge opportunity to use our money and enthusiasm advantage to put the race away during the spring and summer.

    The democrats are snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory once again. If we cannot win the Presidency this year, out of all years, when can we? What about universal health care, what about Iraq and Afghanistan, what about climate change and energy, what about the economy and poverty and education? All these progressive initiatives are being jeopardized by the continuing primary race. Note that I am not calling for Clinton only to drop out. I would actually prefer Obama to drop out so we can have a Clinton/Obama unity ticket. But of course neither of them will, and neither of them can win until probably July or even later.  

    Parent

    The West, the home of an Arizona Senator (none / 0) (#152)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:25:36 PM EST
    named McCain?  The West, where the biggest state went for Clinton?  Nope, this is not the year that the Dems win the West, and Clinton is the best hope for at least winning a good share of its EC votes.

    Parent
    My prediction (none / 0) (#161)
    by Lora on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:35:18 PM EST
    And Obama has the overwhelming Media advantage over Clinton.

    Only until after the nomination.

    Parent

    You're right as of today (none / 0) (#178)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:06:59 PM EST
    but you really should stop deluding yourself that it will stay the same against McCain.  It won't and the media will burn Obama's toast for him.


    Parent
    Obama represents a big risk for the GE? (none / 0) (#109)
    by CodeNameLoonie on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:57:33 PM EST
    This is news?

    It's good to hear that HRC respects the views and values of all Americans. Now she's the one campaigning on unity and hope, (and faith and guns.)

    Wasn't it only days ago that this view when expressed by Obama was giving so many Clinton supporters heartburn? What happened to the skepticism? What happened to the fighting Dem belief that some views and values had to be vanquished?

    Not exactly (none / 0) (#195)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:43:52 PM EST
    I am not going to address your final points which are gratutitiously  insulting.

    You first point is laughable, because the same is true of Obama supporters. Many of the partisans on both sides behave exactly as they accuse their opponents. It would be amusing were this election not so important.

    The more I see and hear, the more I like Edwards and he was far from perfect as well. The more I see and hear, the more I role my eyes.

    I can live with Obama, but I don't like the unity nonsense (the only GOP unity will be anti-Democrats), and I think Edwards (and thus Hillary) is right on health care.

    I can live with Hillary, but  don't like her vote on Iraq war resolution (and I don't for a minute believe her excuses). I'll spot Obama the war vote, because his public position is the only thing we have to go on, but he is every bit as calculating as she is (that is not necessarily  a negative).  I didn't like her vote on Kyle Liberman. She has made 2 gaffe's in my opinion, one major and one minor.

    Both have foolish surrogates and both have obnoxious supporters.

    Molly Bloom, respectfully, Sen. Obama (none / 0) (#210)
    by lookoverthere on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:44:13 PM EST
    never had to vote on the AUMF. He has admitted that he does not know how he would have voted had he been in a position to do so.

    Joe Cannon has a blog regarding Sen. Obama's anti-war stance. I'm using his research here.

    Contrary to Sen. Obama's statement in one of the debates, he was not in the midst of a competitive campaign for a seat in the U.S. Senate in 2002 when he gave his anti-war speech. He was an incumbent running for re-election to the Illinois State Senate.

    In 2004, he stated that he was against the war while one of five contenders for an open U.S. Senate seat.

    I applaud this stand.

    According to the Chicago Tribune,

    Another candidate, state Sen. Barack Obama has tried to make the Iraq situation a major issue in his campaign, saying he was the only Democratic contender to publicly oppose the invasion before it began. Obama also is the only candidate to say he would have fought Bush's $87 billion reconstruction request for Iraq and Afghanistan had he been in Congress.

    Once he was in the U.S. Senate, he did not oppose war funding either time he had the chance.

    His issues statement from 2004:

    I would have voted against the October 10th congressional resolution authorizing the President to use unilateral force against Iraq. I believe that we could have effectively neutralized Iraq with a rigorous, multilateral inspection regime backed by coalition forces. Nothing since the end of the formal fighting has led me to reconsider this stance; indeed, the inability of Saddam Hussein to mount even token resistance to American forces, the failure to discover any significant, deployable arsenals of biological or chemical weapons inside Iraq, and the on-going turmoil currently taking place in post-war Iraq, have only strengthened my views on the subject.
    (my emphasis)

    From ABCNews:

    ...on July 24, 2003, when the war was still quite popular and as Obama began his campaign for the U.S. Senate, the senator again told "Public Affairs With Jeff Berkowitz" that "my analysis said that Saddam Hussein was not an imminent threat and that if we acted multilaterally, it would be better for our long-term security because we would be able to have a multinational coalition and force that could have contained Saddam Hussein, conducted vigorous inspections, and if we ultimately had to overthrow him, we would have built an international coalition that could have moved forward."

    Both quotes sound as if Sen. Obama was saying he would have approved a multilateral force going into Iraq to do inspections.

    Joe Cannon seems to be making this argument on his blog.

    I'd love to be shown that this is incorrect. If anyone has anything solid, I'd like to see it.

    Parent

    Respectfully read and think (none / 0) (#213)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:50:03 PM EST
    carefully about what I wrote. I said I would spot him the Iraq war vote. Does the term "spot him or her" have any meaning for you?

    My understanding of use of the term  in sports or debates it is giving somebody something you really aren't sure they are entitled to rather than argue about it.

    Parent

    Pardon me (none / 0) (#215)
    by lookoverthere on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:03:05 PM EST
    I misunderstood "spot him" to mean "give someone an advantage in points on," as in, "I was spotted 12 points in a game of 1-on-1 because I suck at basketball."

    Parent
    Similar usage I think (none / 0) (#220)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:17:18 PM EST
    e.g. I'll spot you 12 points because you aren't very good at this game- not because you earned 12 points.

    In that context I think you will see I am saying I will spot Obama the AUMF, based upon his speech even though he can only truly earn it by having to actually vote (IMO). However, this is all the evidence we have, so reluctantly I will "spot him."  I can't prove (and neither can he) what he actually would have done.

    Its also my opinion HRC should have known better than to vote for the AUMF. She is in a hard place, because most women understand, women are not allowed to be wrong in corporate America and I fully understand her reluctance to say she was wrong. I think she would have ultimately gained more by doing so, early and getting it over with. Its because she should have known better (IMO) that I am very disappointed.

    Parent

    And (none / 0) (#205)
    by sas on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:29:23 PM EST
     as usual, women are not discussed.

    Why not?

    We're not too crazy about Barack either.

    The unqualified junior male gets promoted over the clearly superior female.....

    Low Information Voters (none / 0) (#223)
    by DeanOR on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:49:57 PM EST
    I don't understand the narrative that Obama supporters are so educated and informed in contrast to the low information supporters of Clinton. Anyone who thinks "something different", "change", and "unity" are transformative new ideas in political campaigns is, by definition, a "low information voter".