home

Hillary's Restraint and Obama's General Election Challenges

Bump and Update: Hillary took off the restraints in PA today:

She made the argument that Sen. Barack Obama's comments could cost the party the election and that the party has been seen as out of touch by male candidates in the past. Clinton also criticized Obama for not "owning up to his remarks."

Original Post:

Don't miss reading John Harris and Jim Vandehei at Politico and their new article positing that far from trying to throw the proverbial kitchen sink at Barack Obama, Hillary has been exercising great restraint.

According to Politico, Hillary believes that Obama cannot win in November. The article says, if Hillary felt free to really speak her mind, here are the points she'd make:

More...

[O]ur conversations with Democrats who speak to the Clintons make plain that their public comments are only the palest version of what they really believe: that if Obama is the nominee, a likely Democratic victory would turn to a near-certain defeat. Far from a no-holds-barred affair, the Democratic contest has been an exercise in self-censorship. Rip off the duct tape and here is what they would say:

Obama has serious problems with Jewish voters (goodbye Florida), working-class whites (goodbye Ohio) and Hispanics (goodbye, New Mexico).

Republicans will also ruthlessly exploit openings that Clinton — in the genteel confines of an intraparty contest — never could. Top targets: Obama’s radioactive personal associations, his liberal ideology, his exotic life story, his coolly academic and elitist style.

Vandehei and Harris report:

But one argument seems indisputably true: Obama is on the brink of the Democratic nomination without having had to confront head-on the evidence about his general election challenges.

They interviewed many Democrats for the article:

Skepticism about Obama’s general election prospects extends beyond Clinton backers. We spoke to unaffiliated Democratic lawmakers, veteran lobbyists, and campaign operatives who believe the rush of enthusiasm for Obama’s charisma and fresh face has inhibited sober appraisals of his potential weaknesses.

Obama's two greatest potential liabilities:

Assuming voting patterns evident in the nominating contest continue into the fall, Obama would be vulnerable if McCain can approximate the traditional GOP performance in key states.

....Stories about Obama’s Chicago associations with 1960s radicals Bernardine Dohrn and William Ayers landed with barely a ripple. So, too, did questions about whether he once backed a total ban on handguns (he says no but in a 1996 state legislative race his campaign filled out a questionnaire saying yes). Obama’s graceful handling of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright controversy may have turned that into a net positive against Clinton. But all this was in a Democratic contest. What about about when Obama’s running against a Republican?

The reporters examine each one in turn. They acknowledge that African American and college- educated upscale white voters will come out in droves in November and be a big boon to him.

But there is reason to question whether he would be able to perform at average levels with other main pillars of the traditional Democratic coalition: blue-collar whites, Jews and Hispanics. He has run decently among these groups in some places, but in general he’s run well behind her.

Obama lost the Jewish vote by double-digits in Florida, New York and Maryland — and that was before controversy over anti-Israel remarks of Wright. An undecided Democratic superdelegate told us many Jewish voters are itching for a reason to break with the party and side with Republicans, who have embraced the Israeli cause with passion. A small shift could swing swing states like Florida and Pennsylvania, which have significant Jewish populations.

On the Hispanic vote, they note Obama won only 1/3 of it on Super Tuesday and even less in Texas:

A Democratic nominee needs big margins with Hispanics to win states like New Mexico, California, Colorado and Arizona. In the fall, Obama would be running against a Republican with a record on immigration that will resonate with Hispanics.

On the poor, rural and blue collar voters:

Three out of every four blue-collar whites in small towns and rural areas of Ohio voted for Clinton over Obama on March 4. The reality is, this is already an electorate with deep cultural divisions — and that’s in the Democratic Party.

On to issue-based attacks:

McCain, by contrast, would have a free hand to exploit a paper trail showing Obama’s evolution — opponents would say reversals — over the past decade from liberal positions on gun control, the death penalty and Middle East politics. He would exploit Obama’s current position in favor of driver’s licenses for illegal immigrants and beginning diplomatic talks with U.S. adversaries like the dictators of Iran and Venezuela. Will those issues help lower-income white voters “come back together” with Obama?

It will be the Republicans using the kitchen sink approach to attack Obama, including playing on falsities and engaging in baseless character attacks.

Here will be the real kitchen sink: every damaging comment or association from Obama’s past, mixed together with innuendo and downright fiction, to portray him as an an exotic character of uncertain values and weak patriotism.

Obama’s advisers say they are not naive about freak show attacks. Their response is that Obama’s appeal to a new brand of politics, and his personal poise and self-confidence, will allow him to transcend attacks and stereotypes in ways that Gore and Kerry could not.

Obama is indeed poised and self-confident. But the current uproar over his impromptu sociology lesson in San Francisco about “bitter” voters in Pennsylvania raise questions about his self-discipline, and his understanding of how easy it is for a politicians in modern politics to lose control of his or her public image.

Compared to Hillary:

Clinton has her own baggage, to put it mildly. But it’s been rummaged through for years, so what Democrats see is pretty much what they would get.

< Al Franken, Fighting Dem? | What Bill Clinton Said And What Obama Said >
  • Premium Ads

  • Blog Ads

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

    donate to TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    That article (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:28:31 PM EST
    was one of the best I've ever read in a more mainstream outlet, calmly summarizing the challenges that Obama will have in the GE.

    The only thing I didn't know was that Obama has statistically done so poorly with Jewish voters. That really surprised me. Most Jewish folks I know, myself included, are not single-issue Israel voters, and despite what the article says, we are not "itching to join the Republican Party." Let's face it, George W. Bush has done nothing but ignore Israel during his whole nightmarish term, and has actually enabled the ascendancy of Ahmadinejad and Hamas. So if you want to help Israel above all else, I doubt you'd vote Republican!

    Perhaps we, like many liberal Democrats, just don't trust him on many core Democratic issues, like womens' rights and the economy, whereas HRC has an excellent record in those areas. However, I did express a fear a few days ago that if he is the nominee, we will lose New York. I suppose it could be true because of the Jewish vote?

    It doesn't surprise me (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:41:32 PM EST
    that Obama is weak among Jewish voters.  You don't have to be a single-issue Israel voter to be uneasy about the Wright connection or the Farrakhan endorsement.  As I'm sure you know, the slightest whiff of anti-Semitism will scare away many Jewish voters.  

    I think in particular Orthodox and Conservative Jews won't hesitate to pull the lever for McCain if Obama's the nominee.  

    I don't believe that NY would go for McCain over Obama in the general, but I have noticed that Obama is not popular with the Jewish and Catholic voters that I know.

    [ Parent ]

    That makes more sense to me (none / 0) (#14)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:42:35 PM EST
    than being a single-issue Israel voter.

    Thanks.

    [ Parent ]

    Jewish population (none / 0) (#189)
    by Natal on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:24:11 PM EST
    in the US is about 1% isn't it? A very large number of posters here rate Obama as not a leader, will get creamed by McCain, is not experienced, is arrogant, has no sympathy for the working poor. If perchance he becomes the nominee what does that say about the Democratic party to allow such a person to weasel his way to the top and hoodwink them with his flowery talk?

    [ Parent ]
    weasel and hoodwink? (none / 0) (#204)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:26:00 PM EST
    wow...I thought I was tough on Obama

    Jewish people vote - always

    I am Jewish...I don't know another Jewish person who is for Obama or likely to vote for Obama and I'm not pushing them either way...I'm merely reporting.

    Obama will lose the Jewish vote to McCain by big numbers...that I'm sure of.

    [ Parent ]

    Could it be because the Jewish vote (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:46:59 PM EST
    has changed a lot elsewhere, as it has in my community?  We have had great numbers in recent years of Jewish immigrants, many of them Orthodox in every way and far different in their world view than the Reform folks here for generations now.

    Btw, I like having neighbors who aren't assimilating too fast, for many reasons -- and not the least that the local delis had become so boring and all alike, but now we have so many new foods, as well as ideas, to widen our world views . . . and waistlines. :-)

    But with all that my new neighbors have been through in their homelands, they certainly assimilated fast to the chance to vote and have a high turnout here.

    [ Parent ]

    How will Obama win (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:54:37 PM EST
    if he (1) overturns the popular vote and gets the nom (2) has no support from core dems (3) keeps making gaffes like this one when the press needs a bad guy and (4) can't really win the big contested states anyway?

    If Obama plays sour grapes after losing the nom, then he can kiss being even a lowly, junior democratic senator from IL goodbye.  His political career will be over.  Maybe one of them thar laughin' billionaires will give him a job?

    [ Parent ]

    I highly doubt (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by jen on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:15:37 PM EST
    Obama would even want to keep his Senate job. He's spoken about how boring it is, and the one committee he was assigned to, he never held one hearing in 3 years time. No. Obama saw his chance for greatness through being a Senator, not being one.


    [ Parent ]
    You do know that super-delegates (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:23:39 PM EST
    who are "committed" can "uncommit," switch, etc. -- exactly as some have done already?  They can do it again.  So there is a (remote but real) way for Clinton to win it before the convention, too.

    Plus, you do know that no one knows, not matter mow much media and Obama try to claim that they do, the "pledged" delegate count to date?  Obama's count is soft, with his reliance on caucus states, as those numbers keep changing with each recaucusing stage, too -- and the last of those is months away as well.

    Bottom line, no one knows who has how many delegates even so far, much less how many yet to come . . . and how many who yet may switch.  And after what we saw of Obama this week, there is a lot of the process yet to unfold.  Just because he admits to being impatient does not mean that we must be.


    [ Parent ]

    You do know that most voters (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:59:07 PM EST
    don't pay much attention until after Labor Day?

    That the last time Dems won, the nominee wasn't settled on until mid-summer?

    Patience is a virtue, especially in the political process.

    Btw, you do know that Obama has said twice that he would bomb Pakistan, I presume.  So with all of these candidates, I need to see more, much more.

    [ Parent ]

    Huh? (none / 0) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:11:43 PM EST
    This is snark right?

    [ Parent ]
    snark I hope but doubt it (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:28:56 PM EST
    it is really something though to have the same person hit McCain for threatening war with Iran and in their next comment make favorable noises about bombing Pakistan.  too ludicrous for snark.  :-)

    [ Parent ]
    If you know anything about (none / 0) (#129)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:11:43 PM EST
    Pakistan, its mountains, etc., it would be idiotic to bomb it on a topographical basis alone, not to mention miring us in another war.  Jeesh, buy a map.

    [ Parent ]
    BTW, 40th and 10th Leg Districts (WA state) (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by lookoverthere on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:02:09 PM EST
    I was at the caucus yesterday.

    40th LD:
    6/13 Clinton/Obama

    10th LD:
    2/5 Clinton/Obama

    Sen. Clinton picked up one delegate to the next round of caucuses and may have picked up two.

    Next caucus is in Spokane in mid-May.

    [ Parent ]

    I guarantee you that if Hillary is forced from the (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:12:48 PM EST
    race by party leaders before the convention, especially if the votes of Michigan and Florida would have changed the outcome in her favor, that it won't matter what else happens there.  The thirty percent of Hillary voters who currently won't vote for Obama will be multiplied many times over. I can barely stomach the idea of voting for him now and if that happens I simply will not. I'll vote downticket and that is all.

    I'm old enough to remember when conventions actually were contested and there was never a problem with that.  Having the situation perceived as fair by EVERYONE, not just Obama voters, is crucial to the Democrats chances in November.

    [ Parent ]

    I totally agree with (none / 0) (#145)
    by zfran on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:22:25 PM EST
    these comments. When I tell some that I'm one who has great reservations about voting Dem if it's not Sen. Clinton, they argue that I should be a good Dem and vote the line. I did this in 2004, along with many, many others and we lost. I think the way the media is pushing Sen. Obama and bashing Sen. Clinton, we've lot anyway!!!

    [ Parent ]
    That should be "lost" (none / 0) (#150)
    by zfran on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:24:12 PM EST
    at the end not "lot"

    [ Parent ]
    And you do know (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Marvin42 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:19:36 PM EST
    That some of us deeply believe if Sen Obama is the candidate we WILL lose in Nov (more and more every day)?

    [ Parent ]
    Buy a clue. He wins by excluding (5.00 / 5) (#70)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:27:43 PM EST
    the primary votes of Fl and MI but they're rock solid for him in the GE?

    [ Parent ]
    Powell also is 70 (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:11:42 PM EST
    and much as I admire him, despite the way he was used by Bush -- Powell thus will not counter one of the main concerns about McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    Not to mention (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:18:35 PM EST
    that the downticket argument has proven specious.  Obama supporters tend to only vote for one person on the ticket--Obama.

    That's what you get with dems for a day, or Obama democrats.

    [ Parent ]

    Cream City (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:51:45 PM EST
    this is the first post of yours I've read that I really disagree with.  Powell should get no admiration from anyone.  He collaborated fully in his own exploitation by Bush without a peep and has still said nothing.  He has as much blood on his hands as Bush does, if not more because he knew it was all a crock and went along with it anyway.

    [ Parent ]
    I know. It's hard to write it (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:05:09 PM EST
    but I also know that we would not have an AA candidate today without Colin Powell in consideration before.  Not that I am for the AA candidate now, not that I would have voted for Powell then. . . .

    Plus, I was a veteran's wife, and I read a lot of what Powell read and saw as a veteran and lifelong military man would -- re blood on their hands, it can mean a different outlook by the ones who always have had to be so willing to bleed for us.  And from what I read, he did not think it was all a crock -- even though I did and was so angry at him for speaking for war.

    It is, I think, an instructive lesson in being careful about which cabinet posts ought not be occupied by military.  Secretary for Defense, maybe, but not Secretary of State!

    Anyway, glad to know we otherwise tend to agree -- as I often do with your comments, too.  Cheers.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes. I agree. He was present at the torture (none / 0) (#180)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:12:35 PM EST
    discussions with Cheney and Rice and Rumsfeld and didn't protest or act. Only John Ashcroft protested!

    I used to think highly of Powell but no more. There's a limit to how much I can stomach.

    [ Parent ]

    I can't imagine (none / 0) (#74)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:30:29 PM EST
    McCain asking him since Powell, to this point, has not endorsed him and he is the presumptive nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    True, Powell's just itching to endorse Obama. (none / 0) (#79)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:33:09 PM EST
    ...but i don't think he wants to do it until the GE.

    [ Parent ]
    Powell just ties him more to the Iraq. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:33:57 PM EST
    Insulting to AA's that you think they would just vote for any AA no matter what.

    [ Parent ]
    Willie, please (none / 0) (#105)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:53:22 PM EST
    if you have nothing to offer but Obama campaign talking points we've already discussed here over and over and over again, find another blog to pester.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, Willie, why not wait for those (none / 0) (#133)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:13:24 PM EST
    election results?  Do you realize what a huge percentage of the population has not had a chance to vote yet?  Why are you against letting voters vote?

    [ Parent ]
    Desperation and Hysteria (none / 0) (#184)
    by blogtopus on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:30:16 PM EST
    The closer this race gets, the more hysterically the Obamabots will wail 'shut the primary down!'

    Obama is monopoly money. In their world, his capital is real and going to win the GE because the pony says so. In the real world, his worth is aiming for the cellar and diving fast.

    Desperation. Period.

    [ Parent ]

    Powel has been an advisor to Obama (none / 0) (#111)
    by ghost2 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:59:10 PM EST
    Yeah.  If there was one person who could have seriously derailed Bush's plan on War, it was Powel.  He could have gone public with his reservation.  But he didn't, and he enabled it by giving that awful presentation in UN.  

    Imagine if there was as much as a picture of handshake between Hillary and Powel??

    But it is Obama, the candidate with the anti-war speech and so-called judgement, and Powel has all kinds of nice words to say about him.  Move along, nothing to see here.  You won't see a discussion on this on blogs or your usual liberal scribes.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (none / 0) (#224)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:05:43 AM EST
    the only time I recall Powell standing up to a President was when he refused to agree with Bill Clinton about allowing gays to serve openly in the military. So he was all for being a bigot, but said nothing about torture and lying to the UN, the Senate, and the country. He also personally reassured Clinton and other Senators that the only reason they wanted the AUMF was to give them leverage with the UN. Now Clinton and other dems are being blamed for supposedly being for the war, when that wasn't what the vote was supposed to be about in the first place. Without Colin Powell's place in this whole mess, Obama wouldn't be demagoguing about his supposed anti-war speech. What a tool!


    [ Parent ]
    mistrust on core Democratic issues (none / 0) (#222)
    by noholib on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:42:05 PM EST
    After Edwards withdrew, that was what turned me to Clinton rather than Obama:
    I could not abide his using Republican-attack inspired ads a la "Harry and Louise" to attack Clinton on health care.  Influenced by Paul Krugman in the NY Times, I have felt since early February that Obama is not more liberal than Clinton on domestic policies.  I see him following the republican lead on health care, scaring everyone about social security, energy policy (Obama voted for Cheney's bill which Clinton opposed).  He is so anxious to attack Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton that he ends up praising Reagan and Bush I ... in attacking Clinton (to him it doesn't matter which one, past or present), he tars the entire Democratic Party ...  with his "pox on both your houses" rhetoric.  To hear Obama's version of history, it's as if no Democrat has done anything good in Washington since JFK!!  As a liberal Democrat, I am not convinced he will stand up for core Democratic values.  I have tried to see his reaching out to Republicans and independents as a clever tactic, but I'm not really convinced.  I still prefer Democratic partisanship to supposed "post-partisanship" -- that looks awfully namby-pamby to me and like advance surrender to highly partisan Republicans.

    [ Parent ]
    A Manufactured Hero (5.00 / 10) (#3)
    by Athena on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:30:48 PM EST
    The protective bubble around Obama - courtesy of a media and blog honchos - will burst rapidly and leave the Democrats with a shell of the Superman that Obama was earlier this year.

    I think a reverse racism at work makes many critics much more gentle than they would normally be - and to the detriment of all Democrats.  As Obama is gently led to the nomination, the party will be reeling when he is finally exposed with all of his electoral deficits.

    Credit all the big players - MSM, alt-media, etc., - for putting Hillary on the cross and Obama on the throne.  It will all backfire mightily if Hillary cannot get the nomination.  Obama will be remembered as the reincarnation of John Kerry who lost an otherwise winnable election.

    Not Kerry (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by badger on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:46:11 PM EST
    The last nominee who had the support Obama has ("creative class" and black voters, primarily) was George McGovern.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL, I was in college then and... (5.00 / 8) (#51)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:14:18 PM EST
    ...I was a huge McGovern supporter. And I was obnoxious as hell too. That's why I can cut some of the youthful Obama enthusiasts some slack. Its party hacks and media whores trying to fix an election that trouble me.

    [ Parent ]
    Me too (none / 0) (#65)
    by badger on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:25:11 PM EST
    And I probably believed McGovern would win in a landslide too.


    [ Parent ]
    He did get the landslide! (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:29:24 PM EST
    Unfortunately, it was in one state.  And the District of Columbia.

    Lookit, anything the SDs do is going to be behind closed doors.  Cream is right--they can change their minds (or should I say "minds") at any point.  All they have to do is rattle their sabers and Obama will take the VP ticket.

    The upcoming elections are about Clinton proving herself.  Obama can't just hold on anymore.  He has to take some big states.  As the days go by, that brass ring gets farther and farther away from him.

    This is why they kept demanding she drop out: because the SDs told Obama flat out that she still had a chance.

    [ Parent ]

    I did -- oh, I did. I thought that (5.00 / 4) (#78)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:33:05 PM EST
    everyone would see the shining light like a nimbus, a halo, around McGovern's head that I could see.

    I still see it, bless him.  But I grew up and took off my rose-colored glasses that had me hallucinating about the realities of politics -- Maria, I cracked up at your post.  Yes, we were obnoxious, and thank heavens that we didn't have the 'Net and the blogs to do what is being done today.

    (Even so, sadder but wiser girl than I am, I could not have predicted quite how low so many would go in this campaign.  It's far worse than any I've seen, and I worked for "Clean Gene," too . . . and even distributed literature for JFK when I was just a kid and could barely reach a doorknob.)

    [ Parent ]

    And omigod could you imagine.... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:35:58 PM EST
    ...our parents being cajoled into voting for McGovern because we had a hissy fit? Actually, my parents did vote for McGovern but only because they were Chicago democrats and I don't think that any of the R votes were ever counted in Chicago in those days.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, McGovern (none / 0) (#112)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:59:22 PM EST
    I voted for him, of course, but I wasn't real enthusiastic, mostly because I was hanging around Michael Dukakis in those days and he had a pretty low opinion of him, though I no longer remember why.

    I had to laugh at one of the recent Dem. conventions, not sure if it was Gore or Kerry, the TV cameras caught sight of McGovern and Dukakis way, way up in the nosebleed section where they'd been banished, heads leaning into each other, McGovern yakking away a mile a minute, Dukakis nodding and nodding and eating fistfuls of popcorn as he listened.  Sorta tragicomic that they finally had something to bond over.


    [ Parent ]

    alright! (none / 0) (#142)
    by isaac on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:20:20 PM EST
    enough about mcgovern (oldsters)

    [ Parent ]
    Not so fast, Young'un (none / 0) (#148)
    by Lora on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:23:32 PM EST
    I remember the T-shirts:

    Don't Blame Me!

    ---I voted for McGovern.

    [ Parent ]

    You know. (none / 0) (#116)
    by ghost2 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:02:01 PM EST
    I don't know about McGovern, but there is something about youth.  While the older people see slogans such as 'change', 'hope', 'changing washington', and know that they have seen it all before, it's new to the young voters.

    Old voters say, "show me the money", whereas young voters thinkg older people are just stupid and/or part of the corruption.  

    [ Parent ]

    me three (none / 0) (#206)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:29:57 PM EST
    but our moment was stolen in 1968 when after RFK was assassinated, HHH got the nomination instead of McCarthy.

    I don't know that McCarthy would have beaten Nixon at that point but I surely think 1972 would have been a different race.

    [ Parent ]

    What is (none / 0) (#21)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:47:32 PM EST
    "the creative class?" I've read it many times lately but I don't know what it is referring to.

    [ Parent ]
    Well-educated, urban/suburban people (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by badger on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:21:32 PM EST
    whose jobs fall into the category usually described by "knowledge-work". Often, but not always, upper income. Self-identify as liberal or progressive, but may not be consistently so if it conflicts with their self-interest.

    [ Parent ]
    Wiki description (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:00:41 PM EST
    The creative class is a group of people that social scientist Dr. Richard Florida, a professor and head of the Prosperity Institute at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto, believes are a key driving force for economic development of post-industrial cities in the USA.

    The "Creative Class" concept is controversial, as is Florida's methodology. He breaks the Class into two broad sections, derived from standard SOC codes data sets:

        * Creative Professionals: "Knowledge workers" and expanding to include lawyers and physicians.
        * Super-Creative Core: This comprises about twelve percent of all U.S. jobs. This group is deemed to contain a huge range of occupations (e.g. architecture, education, computer programming) with arts, design, and media workers making a small subset.

    Additional to these two main groups of creative people, the usually much smaller group of Bohemians are also included in the Creative class.

    Personally, I think the "knowledge workers" should get their own class. I am at a lose as to when lawyers and physicians were considered "creative professionals". I'm sure more than a few of the "super-creative core" would agree ;)

    No offense meant to any lawyers here! Just as a working "creative professional" for about 25yrs, the only lawyers I worked with were not hangin' in the studios with us ;)

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for the clue! :-) (none / 0) (#84)
    by madamab on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:35:49 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It refers to Chris Bowers (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by ghost2 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:03:28 PM EST
    That's what he called himself and bloggers like himself who are for Obama.

    I like to call them, "creaters of Bulls--t class", but that's just me.  


    [ Parent ]

    so funny - (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Josey on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:36:21 PM EST
    These same Politico reporters have given Obama lots of big passes. But NOW - after Obama's gaffe with his Billionaire donors - they've decided to question his electability.
    Apparently - they didn't get the "bitter" memo which was the better part of Obama's toxic remarks.

    Politico (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:51:23 PM EST
    from my recollection, is big with the repubs.  McCain has come out against the bitter gaffe.  Rove made a comment.  Starting to look very coordinated to me.  

    [ Parent ]
    yes - Politico is owned by Repubs (none / 0) (#72)
    by Josey on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:30:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    hear hear! (5.00 / 8) (#6)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:36:46 PM EST
    I have long said that if clinton were really willing to "say or do anything", we would have seen those wright tapes last december.

    By and large, she's gone after him on policy - not that that has done her any good as so many are eager to call her the devil.

    Of course I agree (5.00 / 8) (#13)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:42:23 PM EST
    that he is unelectable, and that Clinton has by no means rolled up her sleeves and taken him on as a true opponent, but I think the last bit quoted is the most important, and that it counters BTDs Media Darling theory:

    Clinton has baggage, but it's old baggage.  Even new baggage seems old because it's so similar to the old that it's somehow cancelled out.

    That she is still standing, and has winning in her sights, says much more about her viability to me than Obama's good press, which I firmly believe would disappear should he (per chance) win the nomination and have to run against McCain.

    Plus I do not want her to quit (none / 0) (#188)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:07:56 PM EST
    I don't want to hear for the rest of my life that the woman quit. That the men took her in a room and said for the good of the party, etc. She has just as much chance to win as he does and especially with the stuff that has come out lately.

    My friend called from Florida and said, "We will not talk politics". I said, oh, checking up on your poor bitter small town friend? We chuckled. But she did say "he didn't mean it like it is being portrayed". She said that about Wright also. We are friends since college. We will survive this. But she will not give an inch. She did mention that Obama is catching up with Hillary in Penna and if he loses it might just be single digit and that would be a loss to Hillary because she was suppose to win bigger.Then we went on to talk about puppies.

    [ Parent ]

    And of course this is not NEW (none / 0) (#226)
    by Salt on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:59:11 AM EST
    200 Million dollars later we are at the same place we started on the electability front. Clinton, however, has been mauled by attacks and the use of the Press as attack surrogates and that has harmed Dems overall almost seemlying becoming what they had hated by wielding Republicans campaign strategies.  But the nastiness has also created a firm unshakable Clinton base of supporters, as well, so maybe it's, hopefully, been a wash versus a loss come Nov..  But indeed the intraparty Clinton attacks must stop following PA or the damaged will not rebound, there is limited time to recover and my guess only the Clintons can rally the Base back in the battleground States. Obama will now need to gracefully decline the VP slot if Clinton is forced to offer it to him,  Strickland may now be the only correct choice because of the Obama Rev Wright issue, which has again raised question of the Party's extreme views on God, Communities, and love of Country within middle America.  Much repair will need to be accomplished even with Clinton as the nominee for a Dem win in Nov. much has happened.

    [ Parent ]
    This (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by nell on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:43:56 PM EST
    is not a credible argument because there is no head to head polling in which his plays out. All of the match ups so far have found that while there is the risk of depressed African American turnout if people are angry, there is no indication that African American voters would be defecting towards McCain. Remember, the specific groups being talked about in the article are groups that are known to SWING elections, Latinos have little party loyalty and they vote for who they think is the best candidate. Same thing with the Reagan Democrats, they swing. Had Kerry won them in 2004, he would have been the nominee.

    Also, if we are concerned about lower African American turnout, don't forget that lower women turnout would be just as much of a challenge for Obama. If he does not win this nomination by including FL and MI, I, for one, will stay home.

    And finally, the President is determined by the electoral college. Having huge African American turnout in urban areas in blue states is fantastic for Democracy, but it is not a game changer. With southern states, same thing, great for Democracy, but doesn't help too much if it is not a game changer. The states that are going to be coming into play are traditional swing states like OH, FL, MI, PA, and newer swing states, like CO, NM, and NV...and in these states, attracting blue collar workers and Latinos is CRITICAL.

    It changes the game for Congress (none / 0) (#39)
    by dianem on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:58:22 PM EST
    Having large black/young draw in red states won't make much of a difference in the Presidency, but it might make a difference in the makeup of Congress. Every Congressperson who is up for reelection is looking at the demographics of their district to try to figure out how Obama's running is likely to effect them. I'm betting that Pelosi and Reid have spreadsheets predicting exactly how many new Democratic congresspeople they will have with Obama - and how many fewer they might get if Clinton draws out Republicans.

    [ Parent ]
    The problem with this (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by cal1942 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:44:44 PM EST
    coattail analysis is that Obama support is thin.  By that I mean that some of his enthusiastic supporters really don't care about any other race.  

    The perfect example was the ballot analysis in parts of Texas.  A share of Obama supporters voted only at the top of the ticket ignoring ALL down ticket races.  Clinton supporters were far less likely to drop the rest of the ballot. A double digit difference.

    In short I believe that a lot of Obama supporters are simply too 'eclectic' concerning party politics and it wouldn't surprise me if a fair share would split their tickets in search of that Unity pony.

    There are in the neighborhood of 30 or so Republican House incumbents who've announced retirement. I'm reasonably sure that most are outside the south and in districts that they'd won by single digits.

    I would be less concerned about Clinton drawing out Republicans and more concerned about Obama getting weak support among old-line hard core Democratic voters. I'm seeing it more and more every day.

    The possible Senate pick-ups seem to have numbers not related to the Presidential primary or head to head Presidential polling.  In New Mexico for example Udall (last I saw) had a huge lead over Wilson his probable opponent.  

    [ Parent ]

    Good point (none / 0) (#146)
    by dianem on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:22:40 PM EST
    The assumption seems to be that all of the people voting for Obama are "Democrats", but they aren't. A lot of them are "Obamacrats". They don't care about the party... actually, based on what I've read at Daily Kos, many of them are openly hostile to the Democratic Party. They see Obama as the anti-establishment candidate, and the "establishment" are the current crop of Dems. Interesting idea... Obama is the Democratic candidate AND a 3rd party candidate at the same time.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama needs new advisors (5.00 / 10) (#23)
    by Step Beyond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:48:07 PM EST
    Their response is that Obama's appeal to a new brand of politics, and his personal poise and self-confidence, will allow him to transcend attacks and stereotypes in ways that Gore and Kerry could not.

    As I've always said, "It takes two to fight. But if you just stand there, it only takes one to beat the crap out of you." That applies if you are transcended or not. :D

    I don't think his advisors actually (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Practically Lactating on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:08:19 PM EST
    believe this. They just project the image to reinforce the narrative, so that when Obama fights, it's not seen as an attack.

    [ Parent ]
    Why? (none / 0) (#89)
    by Step Beyond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:39:40 PM EST
    Who would they think would be convinced by the image/narrative?

    If you are having a discussion on electability, then certainly a lack of experience is an issue that would come up against Obama (rightly or wrongly). To push back with such a naive narrative would not instill any confidence in anyone who wasn't already a supporter. In fact it would reinforce the feeling that Obama doesn't have enough political experience to be successful in the general.

    It just makes him seem less ready to engage in a general election. So it's worse that his advisers would say this and not believe it. Because it serves no purpose and makes their candidate look worse.

    [ Parent ]

    From what I have witnessed, (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Practically Lactating on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:50:44 PM EST
    I think it has worked. Obama has said some less than flattering things about Clinton, but because they don't fit the "new politics" narrative, these comments are largely ignored.

    At some point, he probably will have to drop the charade, but his campaign will cling to it as long as possible.

    [ Parent ]

    I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Step Beyond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:06:46 PM EST
    IMHO, I think the press treatment of Obama has had more to do with their hatred of all things Clinton than it has had to do with Obama or his campaign message. They love Obama because they hate Clinton.

    Nothing binds a group stronger or quicker than hatred of a shared enemy. But it never lasts. And if by some means that shared enemy is removed (like if Clinton loses the primary) then that group will turn on itself. They have made it so they need the enemy and the hatred to maintain the cohesion. They will refocus on a new enemy. With only McCain and Obama to chose from, well things won't look good for Obama "new politics" or not.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with you regarding CDS, (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Practically Lactating on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:32:29 PM EST
    but I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. In fact, I would argue that they are symbiotic.

    As I said, Obama will be forced to drop the act at some point, and my guess is that point will be once Clinton is out of the race.

    [ Parent ]

    I think Obama is more (4.50 / 2) (#87)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:39:32 PM EST
    charismatic that Kerry or Gore, but strangely I find him more divisive in his approach than anyone in recent memory.  Obviously, Bush turned out to be very divisive, but when he was campaigning in 2000 I don't remember him coming across as divisive. Maybe it is because Obama is a Republican appeaser, I don't know, but it is strange for someone to be so charismatic, yet offensive too.

    [ Parent ]
    I do love a good speech (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Step Beyond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:52:23 PM EST
    I agree. I think Obama is a much better speaker than either Gore or Kerry was during their respective runs for the presidency.

    I've tried to block out the 2000 campaign from my memory in order to deny it ever happened so I can't really talk about it. But I don't expect McCain will attack that much. He won't have to. Outside groups will do the attacking. And they can afford to be merciless.

    [ Parent ]

    It is weird. I've thought about the same thing. He (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:27:19 PM EST
    sounds so sweetly reasonable -but then his "spokespeople" and goon squad followers start in and it's like the Hitler Youth.  Why IS that?  

    [ Parent ]
    it's the ephiphany (none / 0) (#193)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:39:06 PM EST
     "At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you'll say, `I have to vote for Barack.'"

    Haven't you had yours yet?  </snark>

    [ Parent ]

    I thought I felt the epiphany once (none / 0) (#194)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:41:57 PM EST
    but then I figured out it was probably more likely connected to the burrito I had for lunch.

    [ Parent ]
    because he is the inspiration for a movement. (none / 0) (#225)
    by moll on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 08:54:23 AM EST
    sounds so sweetly reasonable -but then his "spokespeople" and goon squad followers start in and it's like the Hitler Youth.  Why IS that?

    it's because his appeal is to, ironically enough, bitterness.

    He is trying to start a revolution here. CHANGE. You gotta gather together all the people who  can't stand things the way they are.

    Unity means all the people who are disenchanted and want things to be different. The people who are not disenchanted - nobody cares about unity with THEM, unless they wise up and join the "movement".

    THEY are what needs to be "changed".

    [ Parent ]

    it's not strangely divisive... (5.00 / 3) (#207)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:37:36 PM EST
    It's pure calculation that to beat Hillary, he needed to not only eviscerate Hillary, but he had to be completely dismissive of the Bill Clinton successes everywhere.

    The whole predicate to his 'gaffe' was that it was the last 20 years, Clinton/Bush years that left the residents of midwestern, small towns embittered and clinging to their church/guns. He is trying to make us all forget the prosperity of the 1990's under Clinton and pretend that it never happened.

    His whole embrace of Reagan foreign policy and uniting Americans is to dismiss the Clinton foreign policy successes.

    It's no surprise that he is being divisive...it's his calculation and purposeful endeavor and the media doesn't call him on it because they aren't fond of the Clintons.

    [ Parent ]

    The neocon plan (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Lora on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:49:55 PM EST
     
    ...that if Obama is the nominee, a likely Democratic victory would turn to a near-certain defeat.

    There's no such thing as a likely Democratic victory with neocon tricks before, during, and after the election.

    One trick is to help Obama win the nomination -- hence his current Media Darling status.  Hillary is a fighter and is wise to (at least some of)their tricks.  She has a fighting chance, but her victory is by no means likely.

    This (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:55:27 PM EST
    Their response is that Obama's appeal to a new brand of politics, and his personal poise and self-confidence, will allow him to transcend attacks and stereotypes in ways that Gore and Kerry could not.

    has to be the most clueless statement I have ever heard from a political consultant. Somehow it isn't going to work this time because Obama's "special". Ugh. These people must live in the same bubble that some of the blogs live in.

    It's interesting that these things are now being discussed. Lots of Clinton supporters wanted them discussed for quite a while.

    Like we've been trying (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by jen on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:55:41 PM EST
    to tell people all this time... well, better late than later, I guess.

    Also, I couldn't help but notice they leave out women. I'm not so sure about earlier, but I know as time goes on, Obama is losing more and more of our vote, and it seems like the party leaders have forgotten, but women are the largest, loyal block of voters Dems have. But really, we're not that important, so never mind... :-/

    I think we have been (5.00 / 5) (#91)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:41:28 PM EST
    taken for granted more than AAs.  It may not be politically correct to say it, but I really believe that. Not very many people have talked as openly about what women might do if Clinton loses, compared to what AAs will do if Obama does not get the nomination.

    [ Parent ]
    you hear a lot about (none / 0) (#181)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:21:34 PM EST
    women's votes being taken for granted here.  The white man chuckle is still ringing in my ears from when Kristol said, "We can't do anything about the women."

    Well, no, you can't--except be afraid of us.  Soccer mom.  Security mom.  Stay at home from the election mom...

    They give us so much power when the word "mom" is used to describe us.  Not so much when we stand on our own.  We shall see...

    [ Parent ]

    Don't forget (none / 0) (#183)
    by cmugirl on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:25:55 PM EST
    us single girls!  We've all dated someone like Obama - talks nicely, but really has no clue.

    [ Parent ]
    You're the smart ones (none / 0) (#186)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:39:05 PM EST
    . . . so let me say it before Kathy reminds me of saying it here:  Some of us didn't just date guys like that; we married them.  And then -- well, this time, I'm going to avoid going to court to get out of it.  At least, if this election doesn't land in court again.:-)

    [ Parent ]
    Women's vote in Florida (none / 0) (#191)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:34:57 PM EST
    I've seen that explained as either (1) Jewish vote, or (2) rural -- for some parts of FL. But there are a lot of older women there. Recall those recent research studies showing that grandmothers are important for the survival of the tribe, due to their experience and judgment (who'd a thunk it!).  

    I'll bet most of the Florida retired women can judge a smooth-talking, handsome candidate pretty well for what he's really worth.

    [ Parent ]

    GO HILLARY (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:13:52 PM EST
    I know a LOT of Democrats are going to very grateful she is saying this out loud. We remember, MonKerryAkis all too well.
    Hillary understands that it's NOT just about her.. it's about nominating someone who could win.


    Obama's GE Challanges (5.00 / 5) (#86)
    by Arcadianwind on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:38:48 PM EST
    It's not surprising to hear things like "Well, Obama was just speaking the truth about these small town and rural people." But, what they do not recognize is that such generalizations do not hold up under scrutiny. If you weave a little truth into a layer cake, and then claim that it is truth cake, it misses the mark. One cannot claim that the composition of a thing is defined by a small layer of it.

    Obama himself missed the mark in rationalizing why   he isn't doing well in rural America. Bitterness and clinging are maybe the least of his problems here. Substance(lack of)and hypocrisy are his problem here.

    This is something I posted last week, before this blowup, that is relevant to his predicament.

    If you look at Ohio or even Texas or Florida for that matter, you will see that Hillary won across the expanse of these states, not just NE, SW, or central regions. Obama's wins appear only in heavily urbanized areas. and he doesn't get all of them either. The rural vote, and even the suburban vote, he does not get (in these regions)in any numbers. In Ohio, for instance, In many of the 83 counties he lost in, the margin was not by 8 or 10%, it was 30 or 40 points.

    I think it is clear that Obama does not stack-up well at all against McCain in Ohio, WV, PA, TN or Florida. These are pretty much must win states. Some say it's about race, but it's really more about other factors in the demographics.

    A big part of the puzzle is this:
    In the heartland, Ohio, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Tennessee and Missouri, people are generally a more moderated bunch than the rest of the country. They are less inclined to buy into hype or charisma or fads that  may enrapture elsewhere in America. Smoke and mirrors won't get it done here.

    I have lived and worked here in Ohio for many years. I work in WV and PA as well, and I know the people here, rich, poor, and everywhere in between. Obama cannot win here, ever, or in FL or TN or even MI, that's just the way it is. Game over man....

    I don't see any way his "I have an excuse" speeches will be functional for his redemption, teflon, WORM,  or otherwise.

    if anyone has a plausable scenario (none / 0) (#196)
    by Arcadianwind on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:46:39 PM EST
    where Obama can win any battleground states, other than WI or IL in the GE, then let me hear it.

    [ Parent ]
    one false note (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by isaac on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:01:48 PM EST
    in the politico story is that jewish voters are somehow itching to break with dems and embrace the gop, that sounds wishful thinking repug projection bleeding through in an otherwise spot on piece

    Feh (5.00 / 3) (#162)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:36:25 PM EST
    Hey, if the Clinton campaign was really in kitchen sink mode, they would have answered Obama's insulting "invited to tea with the Ambassador" line with "Yeah, but at least the Ambassador didn't offer her a line of blow." See how bad it could get? Just saying. (And in fact, Shaheen was fired when he even went near that topic.)

    Also, I know the Clinton/Rove trope is well regarded  by those who have what passes for analytical rigor in the Obama Fan Base, but really, it's completely false, even defamatory. Rove turned the entire Justice Department into an arm of the Republican National Committee, and got his political opponents sent to jail, for pity's sake. Whatever sins a normal, centrist politician like Hillary has committed, they are not on that scale. And please don't mention "Vince Foster" in your response, mkay? Thanks.

    Good article (4.87 / 8) (#29)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:51:34 PM EST
    Thanks for posting it, Jeralyn.

    I wish the Obama supporters, pundits and bloggers who have been screaming about Hillary's "negative campaign" would heed these words of wisdom:

    In fact, the Democratic race has not been especially rough by historical standards. What's more, our conversations with Democrats who speak to the Clintons make plain that their public comments are only the palest version of what they really believe: that if Obama is the nominee, a likely Democratic victory would turn to a near-certain defeat.

    Far from a no-holds-barred affair, the Democratic contest has been an exercise in self-censorship.

    Can't they see that they're not doing Obama any favors by constantly propping him up?  They're like over-protective parents whose baby will unable to cope in the real world.

    My Gawd (4.80 / 5) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:39:38 PM EST
    Only speaking for myself here and I can't help but feel somewhat glad that Obama is getting a little grilling over the campaign media fires but........ if we'd had a primary about issues instead of perceptions Obama probably wouldn't have a problem with Jewish voters.  If we'd had a primary about issues instead of ambiguous oration Obama probably wouldn't have a problem with working class voters.  If we'd had a primary about issues instead of convincing McCain voters to be a Democrat for a day Obama wouldn't have a problem bleeding support to McCain.  I'm not saying that the article isn't based in truth but it is a truth we didn't need to visit....all the players in this game have literally chosen this reality, from Obama to his supporters to the media and bloggers on down down down.  How many other blogs outside of Talkleft addressed Obama's comments on abortion and gays of late?  In my old age LGBT issues are becoming more and more important to me because I have more friends and family "out" and I've dealt with it AND I'm not sure if any of the other girls have noticed this around here but, if gays are getting politically hacked on - women usually follow within days.  It's like clockwork.  When they run out of people who deserve society's concentration camp they start seeking fresh meat in their debates and moralizations!  Obama seems to be a conservative compassionate.  Please forgive me if I can't stand him any longer but I've just survived 7 years of compassionate conservative and that dude's compassion almost killed me!  The rights of human beings are the rights of human beings and if someone has a hard time grasping that I make no effort to grasp them anymore!

    The primary's not about issues (none / 0) (#117)
    by Korha on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:02:03 PM EST
    Because Obama and Clinton are 99.9% identical on the issues. Gays? Abortion? Iraq? Health care? Economy? Climate change? Energy? Clinton has the same positions as Obama does, which in turn are all solidly within the mainstream of the democratic party. Please educate yourself by going to their websites and reading their policy papers before going on a rant about how Obama is a Bush-like compassionate conservative.

    [ Parent ]
    They aren't that identical (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:04:12 PM EST
    Come on........all the pro-lifers couldn't wait to line up with Obama so gimmee a break.  Obama is not as progressive as Clinton is.  There are many issues that just didn't get play that needed to get play and more play.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama can't do Iraq without mercs (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:05:07 PM EST
    Hillary can........HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE!

    [ Parent ]
    They are 99.9% identical (none / 0) (#147)
    by Korha on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:22:50 PM EST
    Again I point you to their websites and their position papers. I would argue that Obama is marginally less progressive than Clinton on domestic issues while he is marginally more progressive on foreign policy. The key word there is marginally.

    I believe Clinton and Obama have taken essentially the same position on mercenaries in the military. If you have evidence otherwise, please show it.

    [ Parent ]

    Clinton has introduced legislation (5.00 / 3) (#170)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:54:34 PM EST
    in the Senate to ban private contractors from security missions in war zones.  Iraq and Afghanistan are currently said war zones.

    Please don't point me to the website to read decade old revamped boilerplate for policies.  I would much rather heat what they have to say during the campaign.  On that point, Obama falls far behind.


    [ Parent ]