Obama Interview On LGBT Issues

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 07:36:00 AM EST
Tags: Barack Obama, 2008 (all tags)

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Barack Obama gave an interview to the Advocate about his positions on gay issues. This leapt out at me:

“So I actually have been much more vocal on gay issues to general audiences than any other presidential candidate probably in history.’’

That strikes me about as credible as his comment about his record on anti-semitism:

And nobody has spoken out more fiercely on the issue of anti- Semitism than I have."

I'd call it hyperbole, except his exaggerations are not intentional. He seems to really believe it.

Also, over and over again, on issues that matter to progressives, Obama talks about how fighting for change must be viewed in terms of whether it's worth it to expend political capital to effect it: [More...]

To the Advocate:

“I reasonably can see “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” eliminated,’’ Obama told the magazine, though he wouldn’t make the issue “a litmus test’’ for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
....Obama, who favors repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act, was pressed about why he supports civil unions for gay and lesbian couples but not marriage: "I’m the product of a mixed marriage that would have been illegal in 12 states when I was born. That doesn’t mean that had I been an adviser to Dr. King back then, I would have told him to lead with repealing an antimiscegenation law, because it just might not have been the best strategy in terms of moving broader equality forward. ‘’

On the crack cocaine sentencing disparity (from the Boston Globe):

"Even if we fix this, if it was a 1-to-1 ratio, it's still a problem that folks are selling crack. It's still a problem that our young men are in a situation where they believe the only recourse for them is the drug trade. So there is a balancing act that has to be done in terms of, do we want to spend all our political capital on a very difficult issue that doesn't get at some of the underlying issues; whether we want to spend more of that political capital getting early childhood education in place, getting after-school programs in place, getting summer school programs in place."

On medical marijuana:

On medical marijuana:I would not punish doctors if it’s prescribed in a way that is appropriate. That may require some changes in federal law. I will tell you that — I mean I want to be honest with you — whether I want to use a whole lot of political capital on that issue when we’re trying to get health care passed or end the war in Iraq, the likelihood of that being real high on my list is not likely…

Obama seems to tell us over and over that he'll talk the talk but we shouldn't expect him to walk the walk because It may not be worth the political capital. How does that differ from politics as usual? How is that change?

Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds, when will people get the stars out of their eyes?

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Obama Interview On LGBT Issues | 180 comments (180 topical)

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But no Picture with the Mayor of SF (5.00 / 8) (#3)
by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:43:05 AM EST

That is really standing up.

THAT ESPECIALLY... (5.00 / 3) (#14)
by gmo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:11:34 AM EST

...burned my butt. As someone who was living in SF at the time and remembers vividly how much flak Newsom took for gay marriage, to hear that Obama couldn't risk his own delicate image while running for his senate seat really ticked me off.

And the fact that Obama's now outright lying about the fact that it never happened is even more outrageous. I'd believe Gavin Newsom over Obama ANY day.

Incidentaly, I'm proud of Newsom for all he's done for the LGBT community and for SF in general. I hope I get to vote for him as governor of CA (and maybe even president) one day, because he truly DOES have the courage of his convictions, especially when it comes to tough issues like supporting gay marriage.

[ Parent ]

: Heh best part (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:13:27 AM EST

Willie Brown told the story about Obama dissing Newsom.

[ Parent ]

The source for that Newsom avoidance (5.00 / 1) (#32)
by andrys on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:47:42 AM EST

In this case, Obama voted "Not Present!"

- Andrys

[ Parent ]

I agree... (4.00 / 1) (#57)
by Alec82 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:27:07 AM EST

...that is a big deal. But since the Democratic Party did not come out against the anti-gay marriage amendments that followed in Newsom's wake, I am not going to assignn blame to anyone who merely dissociated themselves from SF's mayor.

There were reports saying Senator Kerry indicated that President Clinton suggested he support some of those anti-gay amendments to make himself a more attractive canidate. Those reports really pissed me off. DOMA was bad enough, but those amendments were practically tiwsting a knife in a wound. And Senator Kerry was one of fourteen senators to vote against DOMA. As much as I despise his Iraq war vote, I have to give him some credit for that.

[ Parent ]

Not so... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
by gmo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:42:01 AM EST

...the democratic party, including Ted Kennedy, Harry Reid, etc, ) all came out against the marriage amendment votes in the senate because they were a) bigoted and prejudiced, and b) a divisive distraction tactic being used by republicans to avoid dealing with the real topics at hand (the economy, iraq, etc). God, even MCCAIN was against it. So I'm not buying your argument -- there was plenty of opportunity for Obama to show a spine here.

But the fact is, he knew that his image was too fragile at the time to sustain being anywhere near Newsom. Whereas Clinton's long support for the LGBT community created no such conflict for her.

[ Parent ]

Wrong again (none / 0) (#66)
by Alec82 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:47:12 AM EST

They may have come out against the federal marriage amendment. Big deal. The issue is the dozens of state amendments against gay marriage, civil unions, domestic partnerships and even (in some cases) basic contract rights. You can blast the FMA all you want, but you don't get to rewrite history on that issue. The Democrats remain culpable.

[ Parent ]

Weren't a majority of those amendments.. (5.00 / 1) (#69)
by gmo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:53:34 AM EST

...passed in some deeply RED (and purple) states? That's like blaming Democrats for losing states like Mississippi in the GE.

Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Ohio, Utah and Oregon all passed their state bans in Nov 2004 -- are you saying that it was the democrats faults that those pieces of legislation passed, that democrats are culpable? Really? How do you explain that, exactly?

[ Parent ]

Hmmmm... (none / 0) (#71)
by Alec82 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:59:27 AM EST

....so MI and OR are red states? Sorry my friend. Also, different initiatives passed in CA, NV and HA before 2004.

Are Dems responsible? No, but did they do anything to speak against the passage of those amendments? Was it even (near) the top of their agenda? No. So when they come looking for money should gay voters give it to them, since they are on their own? No.

[ Parent ]

: "RED (and purple)" (5.00 / 1) (#78)
by gmo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:16:25 AM EST

I'd count MI & OR as "purple" states (which is why I said "RED (and purple)" in my post).
Beyond that, these measures passed pretty soundly in all the states they were presented, often by measures of 2-1 or greater. And for that, I credit Karl Rove, not any democrat.
Returning to the original point of this thread, the bottom line is that Obama chose to carefully preen his young political identity and improve his chances for a senate seat, and consciously avoided Newsom at a time when Newsom was considered political poison for ACTUALLY standing up for LGBT rights. Obama could have taken a risk and stood with Newsom to show what he really believed, but he hedged his bets and avoided him, betting that his short term avoidance would help him win his senate seat. For all intents and purposes, it looks like that strategy worked in the short term.
Unfortunately, the course of the past four years has shown that Obama made a short-term call on avoiding Newsom, with longer-term repercussions on his claims to be supportive of the LGBT community. So frankly, he's got ground to make up with the LGBT community, and certainly cannot claim to be the "most progressive" when it comes to this issue. And that's on nobody else's shoulders but his own.

[ Parent ]
: so the republicans are going to get (none / 0) (#155)
by TeresaInPa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:55:37 AM EST

gay marriage passed for you?

[ Parent ]

Even though DOMA is awful (5.00 / 2) (#123)
by ahazydelirium on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 09:55:33 AM EST

I think the historical moment should be considered. Many believe (myself included) that DOMA took a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage off the table. It likely would have passed in the 90s, and it would have been difficult to nullify it with another amendment. So, while DOMA is certainly an awful law, it is NOT an amendment.

Also, I don't see how the Democratic Party position as a whole is relevant to whether Obama refused to have his picture taken with Gavin Newsom. He didn't show leadership, and he snubbed a man who followed in the great traditional of civil disobedience. However, the snub is just one thing. Considering his repeated association with anti-gay pastors (McClurkin and Meeks), this is just icing on the cake.

[ Parent ]

blaming Clinton is so sleazy (5.00 / 1) (#148)
by TeresaInPa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:47:45 AM EST

Kerry also blamed Gore for having the election stolen and thought he could do better.

[ Parent ]

"Some reports?" Can you (none / 0) (#151)
by hairspray on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:50:36 AM EST

elaborate? Is it like "some say" or "it is reported" I think these are rumors and unless there is evidence this kind of stuff poisons the well.

[ Parent ]

Newsweek in 2004... (none / 0) (#201)
by Alec82 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:28:11 PM EST

...reported (from an unnamed source) that President Clinton suggested Senator Kerry support the state amendments. Bob Shrum, in his book No Excuses, stated that Senator Kerry recounted the following:

"The most prominent new counselor, of course, was Bill Clinton. Less than a year after the 2004 election, Kerry would tell me, "The only thing the Clintons care about is themselves and power." But in that post-primary spring, and for months afterwards, he prized the calls from Clinton; they were a certification of his success and his coming presidency, even though most of the advice was boilerplate - for example, reach out to the middle. But not always: Clinton, Kerry reported at the time, did suggest blunting Bush's appeal to cultural conservatives with a reprise of Clinton's Sister Souljah moment in 1992 when he denounced her call for violence against whites - and done it conspicuously as possible in front of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition. Kerry, Clinton ventured should consider defying Democratic interest groups by endorsing Bush proposal for a federal constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. The notion was also a replay of a Clinton tactic in his second presidential race in 1996, when he signed the Defense of Marriage Act, providing that no state had to recognize a same-sex marriage performed in another. At the time, Kerry had been the only Democrat running for reelection in the Senate who'd voted against the bill; he'd denounced it as "gay-bashing on the floor of the United States Senate." Clinton,, Kerry told me, had advised him that maybe he could now disarm his opponent on an issue that Karl Rove was exploiting to mobilize the religious right."

Believe what you will.

[ Parent ]

: The statement that Kerry made (none / 0) (#203)
by hairspray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:46:44 PM EST

about Clintons only caring about themselves and power is not borne out with much evidence. A review of the work that the Clintons have done on behalf of all Americans is simply too much to discount as "personal ambition" The tactic of agreeing to a federal constitutional amendment to ban "gay marriage" was quite shrewd. Clinton knew personally of the evil of the GOP and suggested a gutter tactic to call them on their game. A federal constitutional ammendment would never PASS so the issue was moot. Kerry didn't want to play the game which while principled was not not shared by most Americans. I think the reason that the Democrats lose, is because they can't beat the GOP at their vicious game. Bill Clinton did, however, and you can argue that "we shouldn't do things like this" if you want.

[ Parent ]

Authenticity (5.00 / 7) (#4)
by Practically Lactating on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:46:34 AM EST

I'd call it hyperbole, except his exaggerations are not unintentional. He seems to really believe it.

Self-deception is the most efficient road to authenticity.

hmm... (none / 0) (#183)
by white n az on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 11:57:59 AM EST

The official definition of hyperbole:

obvious and intentional exaggeration.

an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as "to wait an eternity."

So while I struggle with the double negative in not unintentional, it seems evident that hyperbole is exactly what it was.

It would seem that hyperbole is part and parcel of any political campaign but the art of hyperbole is not seeming to be disingenuous. That of course is subjective and heavily influenced by things like blogs or main stream media calling these things out and ridiculing them, OR, as Practically Lactating is suggesting, engaging it to a level that appears authentic.

Jeralyn is suggesting that her BS detector is on full alert here and she isn't buying the authenticity argument at all and I would presume that is probably true of most of the TL readers.

It's a good thing that the main stream media is concentrating on the really pertinent issues of the campaign such as bowling skills, lying about smoking, haircuts, pantsuits and cleavage because otherwise, they might actually start examining some of the candidates ridiculous claims.

[ Parent ]

: you are right (none / 0) (#202)
by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:51:39 AM EST

I have one negative too many in there. The funny thing is I too looked it up in the dictionary before I wrote the post -- saw the same definition that you did -- and in trying to be precise, got it wrong. I'm going to change it to "not intentional."

[ Parent ]

The bigger the lie (5.00 / 1) (#6)
by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:51:47 AM EST

the more people will believe it. Simple.

: Hmmm... now where did we learn that? (none / 0) (#144)
by blogtopus on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:34:07 AM EST

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
There's an axiom that Obama really took to heart, just not in the way we wanted him to.

[ Parent ]

Also in this article (5.00 / 6) (#7)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:00:02 AM EST

Somebody else who influenced me, I actually had a professor at Occidental -- now, this is embarrassing because I might screw up his last name -- Lawrence Golden, I think it was. He was a wonderful guy. He was the first openly gay professor that I had ever come in contact with, or openly gay person of authority that I had come in contact with. And he was just a terrific guy. He wasn't proselytizing all the time, but just his comfort in his own skin and the friendship we developed helped to educate me on a number of these issues.

Ugh. He may well have just said " He wasn't a Flamer" or even " He didn't grab my buttocks!"

More at

Ugh (5.00 / 4) (#9)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:04:10 AM EST

I know I am suppose to link the article in a special way, but I can't seem to figure it out. Of course that should be expected because I am a low information voter who is to busy clinging to my guns and pouring over my bible to figure ANYTHING out. But there is more discussion of the specific quote at shakespearssister.blogspot if interested. It's on the next page over from main :-)

[ Parent ]

Has anyone linked to your article yet? (none / 0) (#181)
by jawbone on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 11:53:17 AM EST

Can you give site and date, title, so we can google it?

[ Parent ]

: Sure (none / 0) (#184)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 11:58:36 AM EST

Site: shakespearssister.blogspot.com
Article title: What you don't know CAN hurt you
Author: PortlyDyke
Date: April 10, 2008

[ Parent ]

Heh. (5.00 / 8) (#12)
by lansing quaker on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:08:49 AM EST

This is MY favorite part:

"And I've said this before -- I'm the product of a mixed marriage that would have been illegal in 12 states when I was born. That doesn't mean that had I been an adviser to Dr. King back then, I would have told him to lead with repealing an antimiscegenation law, because it just might not have been the best strategy in terms of moving broader equality forward.

That's a decision that the LGBT community has to make. That's not a decision for me to make."

Of course. Let the gay community - not municipalities, not states, not Congress, not the Supreme Court - make this case on their own, for they will not be voting for a true advocate in the White House.

Intense double speak.

[ Parent ]

: MY Favorite Part... (5.00 / 2) (#109)
by AmyinSC on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 08:57:43 AM EST

Was him claiming he has spoken out more on LGBT issues than ANY OTHER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE!!! I rolled around on the floor laughing myself silly abt that one. Really, Obama? When you can't even take, or MAKE, the time to do interviews?? Gee, really? You mean when you took Donnie McClurkin around with you? That sure raised some conversation, I'll say. Or when you go see your BFF, James Meeks??
As for time Clinton is on the campaign trail, too, yet she seems to make time for a BUNCH of interviews, and goes on the Ellen Show saying she will give same sex couples all the same benefits ae heterosexuals enjoy. And you think you are doing more for our community?!?!? Hahahahaha!!
As you said last night, there IS a reason why the gays love Hillary - she really IS our champion. Obama? Not so much...

[ Parent ]
: Exactly (4.50 / 2) (#23)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:31:03 AM EST

You gay, glbt, lesbians, whomever you all are, fight your fight and when your done, we will talk.
I have a friend in New Orleans who is a drag queen. Some of her "sisters" are Obama supporters and were going to take a trip to Texas to see him. I asked her to tell them to go as "sisters" and not brothers. She reported back to me that they wouldn't do that because they wanted to get close enough to touch him. I was like....uhhhhh...
It did rather amuse me tho, the idea of a stager telling a group of "sisters" they would have to move for (insert random ethic group) . Weeeee wigs would fly!

[ Parent ]

Really?? (5.00 / 2) (#13)
by FlaDemFem on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:10:41 AM EST

He wasn't proselytizing all the time,

You mean there is a gay man out there who doesn't try to convert all the straight men to gayness??

Who knew??!!!

(Total Snark!!)

[ Parent ]

: your other comment (none / 0) (#20)
by Jeralyn on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:22:13 AM EST

was deleted twice as being a personal insult to Obama.

[ Parent ]

Another answer (5.00 / 2) (#22)
by standingup on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:29:35 AM EST

that was less than satisfactory:

Just draw that thought out a little bit in terms of comparing it to the African-American civil rights movement.
You always want to be careful comparing groups that have been discriminated against because each group's experiences are different. I think that the transition toward fuller acceptance of the LGBT community has happened without some of the tumult and violence that accompanied the civil rights movement. But we still have a long ways to go, and I think that it also obviously varies geographically. I think in urban communities, you can't say there's full equality, but in terms of the LGBT community daily round they're not as likely to experience certainly the discrimination that they experienced 25 years ago.
Whereas, in the African-American community, you can still see some fairly overt racism. On the other hand, in rural communities, I think attitudes are slower to change.

I get the feeling that Obama does not view or place LGBT's on an equal footing with African Americans. And the more he speaks about LGBT issues, it becomes more apparent he is not that knowledgeable about LGBT history or the community. At this point, I might suggest he would be better off being less vocal on gay issues.

[ Parent ]

Grrrr (5.00 / 3) (#27)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:40:25 AM EST

That is such nonsense. The smallish town in Michigan in which I sprouted was DANGEROUS for GLBT's. No socializing places, just what my father refered to as the "licky dicky park" . And yeah, it was prime hunting grounds for red necks with bats and guns. Thank GAWD I moved before I "chose to be gay" cough.

[ Parent ]

Michigan! (none / 0) (#31)
by lansing quaker on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:47:40 AM EST

What town? I hail from Lansing, where the grass was much greener growing up.

[ Parent ]

Bay "stinky town" City. (none / 0) (#33)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:49:07 AM EST

I also dwelled in Ann Arbor for a few years.

[ Parent ]

Me...... (none / 0) (#174)
by michitucky on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 11:39:50 AM EST

Traverse City......Where the good ole' boy network is alive and kicking...But I miss it, nonetheless......

[ Parent ]

: I heart (none / 0) (#192)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:15:03 PM EST

Traverse City. My family used to drive across to there to see ther leaves changing every fall. So pretty!

[ Parent ]

Meh. (5.00 / 4) (#30)
by lansing quaker on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:46:53 AM EST

I feel as though to him that "gays" are just another plank to place on that parquet wood floor in that "ineviatable" White House win.

Gay issues is just one of those other "Democrat" things someone "has" to support according to Obama, as he is Not Republican (tm).

I mean, after all, even in that "Organized Community" known as South Side Chicago, you know where Barack Obama was a "Community Organizer" there was the whole gay house tragedy.

It's not one of his key social issues, and I will bet my bottom dollar that nothing will be done on LGBT issues should he get the nomination and the White House, short of a miracle.

And even then, Donna Brazile will probably clench her fists in protest. Oh, those uppity gays, wanting a quota on delegates with the rest of us!

[ Parent ]

: Heh. (none / 0) (#39)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:54:58 AM EST

That really is a funny picture. But I will say no more on the topic of Donna. LOL

[ Parent ]

I suppose he thinks that (5.00 / 1) (#111)
by Kathy on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 08:58:34 AM EST

Stonewall is just a bunch of funny rocks in England.

[ Parent ]

: LOL (none / 0) (#121)
by AmyinSC on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 09:40:15 AM EST

Good one! :-)

[ Parent ]

Another gripe about what is said: (5.00 / 1) (#195)
by Molly Pitcher on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:26:03 PM EST

"Whereas, in the African-American community, you can still see some fairly overt racism. On the other hand, in rural communities, I think attitudes are slower to change."

Well, that is a still another diss from someone who never knew a rural community. Here I am in the Edwards county of SC. You know what my ex-pat NY friends said? "We have never seen a place where there are so many interracial families." When I moved here, there were segregated schools and movies and all the rest. For years now, blacks and whites and hispanics and asians (and purple people for all I know) have been dating and marrying and raising kids. Not so slow to change, maybe because in small towns and rural areas everyone pretty much has to live and get along together. The racist whites were exactly right: once the black people and the white people and the purple ones were thrown together and became friends, all the barriers dropped. Slow to change? Try the enclaves of wealthy for that.

[ Parent ]

Obama isn't great on LGBT issues; (none / 0) (#126)
by ahazydelirium on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:02:19 AM EST

however, I will give him credit here. The fight for equal rights, in general, is a similar movement for African-Americans and the LGBT community: they both deserve the same protections and inclusion in a civil government and society.

But each community has a very different historical and social context, and there are many ways in which they do not parallel one another. I would suggest reading the introduction to Fear of a Queer Planet, edited by Michael Warner. He discusses the tendency to align the two movements and why that isn't always a feasible option.

[ Parent ]

But the problem (none / 0) (#159)
by standingup on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 11:00:28 AM EST

I have with Obama is not getting a strong sense that he is concerned with LGBT having the same protections or with our civil rights particularly when compared with African Americans. I would like him to speak out as forcefully as he did with Imus and John Tanner but instead he gave Donnie McClurkin a stage and microphone because all sides need to be heard?

I agree that the paths of each movement do not parallel each other. Yet I hear Obama downplaying, past and present, violence and bigotry that LGBT's experience in his statement. I suppose he could simply be very uninformed on LGBT history and issues but that does not give me any additional comfort.

[ Parent ]

: You're absolutely right. [nt] (none / 0) (#176)
by ahazydelirium on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 11:42:54 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Proselytize (5.00 / 2) (#97)
by stillife on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 06:58:00 AM EST

To induce someone to convert to one's religious faith.
To induce someone to join one's institution, cause, or political party.

Interesting choice of words. It reminds me of the anti-gay bigots who don't want gays teaching their children b/c you know, those evil gays are all out to "convert" them!

[ Parent ]

Not all the time, like the others do ... (none / 0) (#36)
by andrys on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:52:54 AM EST

That seemed the inference of his 'not proselytizing all the time' ...

- Andrys

[ Parent ]

No way... (5.00 / 17) (#8)
by gmo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:03:42 AM EST

...does Obama get to claim he is most progressive on gay rights, especially over Clinton's long history of support for the LGBT community.

There's no comparing between the significance of Clinton's role as first lady in publicly supporting the LGBT community to Obama's state senate support, even if Clinton's was admittedly at first only in appearance. There's a reason the Advocate put Clinton on the cover: when you remember what a stark contrast she presented at the time from the previous twelve years of first ladies, especially through the darkest years of the AIDS crisis, I'm proud of her, WJC and Al & Tipper Gore for standing with the LGBT community at such a critical moment. I mean -- could you have imagined Nancy Reagan or Barbara Bush doing anything remotely similar in their years? For God's sake, even the Pope went to San Francisco in the height of the spread of the AIDS epidemic, but Nancy and Barbara? Too busy, I suppose. Yet there was Clinton, acknowledging our community, walking with the LGBT community, and even in the NYC pride parade in 2000, running for her senate seat. Hell, even the "Don't Ask" policy was still a huge step up from the military witch-hunts going on at the time.

IMHO, what Clinton's support as first lady meant at the time is far more fixed as an important moment in LGBT history than Illinois state senate votes over the last several years, or even Clinton's own work in the Senate against the FMA (though she deserves credit for deftly using DOMA as a shield to protect against instilling hatred into the Constitution at a time when a republican president, congress, and supreme court would have gleefully done so).

Now it's true that the magnitude of their records are probably mostly a matter of the stage that was available to the two, and the time in which they made their cases. But relatively speaking, I think Clinton's far longer history of support on the national stage for the LGBT community outweighs Obama's here by far, whatever Obama's few state senate votes and gay magazine interviews may have been.

THAT'S why it matters. Because just like nearly every other issue, Clinton's stands are backed by proof of history, and record of action, not simply white papers on what they -might- do as President.

Fantastic comment. (5.00 / 5) (#15)
by lansing quaker on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:13:01 AM EST

Especially on DOMA.

Any time a straight Obama supporter wants to lecture me on how awful DOMA was as a policy in the Pre Will and Grace World, all I want to do is just cock my head, smile, and then smack them across the face.

DOMA is not Hillary's brainchild.
DOMA was a far different idea/policy in '96 as it is in '08.

[ Parent ]

it is like stella said earlier this evening (5.00 / 2) (#55)
by TheRefugee on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:23:42 AM EST

Obama supporters are not mindful of what has come before.

Dismissing baby boomers, dismissing Reagan Democrats, dismissing any non-black members of the civil rights movement. If it doesn't help them they refuse to acknowledge the thing.

[ Parent ]

Please... (none / 0) (#63)
by Alec82 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:37:37 AM EST

...get over this meme.

Look, it is not DOMA in '96 that is the problem. It is DOMA in '08 parsing (Senator Clinton says she supports repealing the portion that denies giving rights to gay couples but supports the "Full Faith and Credit" clause portion). Her poisition on the Senate Armed Services Committee amplifies the problem because as far as I know she has not pushed for repeal of DODT. I care less about Senator Clinton here than I do about her supporters, who seem willing to believe that she is a pro-gay messiah without a shred of evidence to the contrary (apart from her participation in a LGBT pride march, which would be regarded at best as symbolic if Obama was involved).

Dismissing Reagan Democrats???? At the risk of being OT, I thought that a big criticism of Senator Obama was that he (purportedly) praised Reagan for having "ideas." Then again, the grounds for attacking him shift daily. Maybe I should not be surprised.

[ Parent ]

no see (5.00 / 4) (#77)
by TheRefugee on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:15:37 AM EST

Hillary has deeds that back up her claims. She doesn't just talk about gay issues in speeches. She meets with the gay community. She marches alongside gays. She walks the walk.

Hillary didn't create DADT. She didn't create DOMA. But DADT was a beginning not an end as is DOMA....nothing changes until there is a starting point whether the starting pt is positive or negative is immaterial--the pt is that the debate gets started and Clinton is willing to take the debate along the lines of advancing equal rights and not restricting personal freedom.

Obama refuses to meet with the gay community. Refused to have his picture taken with a pro-gay mayor. Granted an interview with one gay publication and then proceeded to lecture them on how he is pro-gay rights.

I might not be gay but I can see who the better candidate for glbt issues would be.

Last, you guys continually conflate arguments. Criticizing Obama for admiring Reagan is not the same as dismissing Reagan Democrats as being the DLC establishment type. Reagan democrats may be moderate liberals but they are a part of our party and have voted with us since learning from their past errors. Reagan was a horrible president, both fiscally and socially. Reaganomics enriched the wealthy, marginalized the poor and further indebted the nation. Reagans social beliefs laid the groundwork for social conservatism becoming a major staple of the neo-con platform. I find nothing admirable about Reagan but I do find moderate democrats admirable as they generally share my view on most issues and most have decided that their votes for Reagan were a mistake.

[ Parent ]

: BTW, Hillary has said that she intends to (none / 0) (#124)
by allimom99 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 09:58:51 AM EST

REPEAL DADT. Let's start with that. DOMA may be harder, but IMHO the courts will have to address it in view of the states' movement (which is also her point). Remember, it is the states which have the jurisdiction over marriage last time I checked.
Once again Obama goes out of his way to have no opinion at all. This is not the type of spine I want in the WH at this jucncture. He will not fight for anyone's rights unless there's something in it for him.

[ Parent ]

outrageous (5.00 / 2) (#16)
by mscristine on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:13:15 AM EST

It seems that in addition to his decision to refuse to apologize for calling poor pennsylvanians gun-toting, racist jesus freaks (only to comfort themselves though over the bad things the Clintons and Bushes did to them), he is now pretending to be Harvey Milk and Elie Weisel as well. I am starting to think this guy is the Roger Clemens of politicians and will ultimately be seen as outrageous in his outrage when the shine wears off.

Clemens - that's funny analogy (5.00 / 1) (#58)
by shoephone on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:27:10 AM EST

Because Obama's backhanded comments to blue-collar Pennsylvanians do sort of remind me of the day that I was working at Fenway and saw Clemens give the finger to the hometown crowd.

[ Parent ]

You have an interesting opinion on (none / 0) (#79)
by voterin2008 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:29:31 AM EST

what Obama statements meant? He in no way said anyone was a "pennsylvanians gun-toting, racist jesus freaks (only to comfort themselves though over the bad things the Clintons and Bushes did to them)" he said people are bitter because the economic policies for the last 25 years have not alleviated their concerns. And with little hope on a candidate that is honest in delivering an alternative they make decisions based gun rights, religion and I don't believe any racist remarks where mentioned. Nice attempt on a spin, maybe your bitter as well about Clinton since are most likely drinking her KoolAid heavy these days. Lets not forget your KoolAid seems to be changing flavors each day to try and scratch it's way into the nomination. I believe Clinton promised New Yorkers 20,000 new jobs when elected to senate and delivered a higher unemployment rate. I believe she has ran a campaign against Free Trade as well. But as it turns out that helping to pass NAFTA was one of her major accomplishments as first lady (experience I guess). She wrote about it being a huge accomplishment if you question my facts. Also turns out that in her campaign the two most recognizable figures are actively seeking to increase Free Trade not limit it or negotiate better Free Trade deals for Americans. Now I strongly believe Obama's message has staid consistent while Clinton's change like the wind. The test of a leader is telling the people it leads the truth regardless of whether it makes us comfortable or not. That's what Obama has done told the truth on the feelings of American people. Maybe your not one of them maybe your happy with the Iraq war, Economy, Healthcare, housing crisis, supreme court selections and education. Well I'm not I lost my job from my job going over seas and I currently make 55% of what I made and my bills are just going up and up. I do turn to my faith and familly to support and I'm refreshed that someone finally is willing to stand up and say No things are not going well, no the American people are not happy, no we will not let you divide us so that you can then run the country in a way that is outside our self interests. And I have a feeling that the other 13+ million voters who have voted with me feel the same. And yes 10 more states to go with almost no statistical probability that Clinton will overcome Obama in delegates. And Obama has made strides with two campaigns and an entire party and network FAUX attacking him on a daily basis. Yes we can!

[ Parent ]

: You realize (5.00 / 1) (#193)
by facta non verba on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:21:53 PM EST

that while Obama rails against free trade in Ohio and Pennsylvania, he comes here to San Francisco and touts it:

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
He's telling Gordon Getty and other billinaires that don't worry this why I am saying what I am saying because I really am pro free-trade. Now I personally think free trade is fabulous as I am sure Gordon Getty does too and free trade is not what causing the drain of manufacturng jobs to China, corporate greed and tax loopholes are, but Obama has been caught in a bind. Not only did he attack small town America painting them as gun-loving Jesus freaks, he did it here in San Francisco, the place many Americans especially those in rural areas think as some modern day Sodom and Gamorrah but he made his comments in front of Gordon Getty, a registered Republican (though he has fundraised for Democrat before), and his friends in this mansion on Pacific Heights in an area called "Billionaire's Row" on Broadway & Divisadero here in SF.
Photos from the event:
http://www.zombietime.com/obama_visits_billionaires_row/
Obama consistent message? Really? Against driver lisences for undocumented migrants in Iowa but for them in Los Angeles. Voted for a border fence in the Senate but against it in Texas. Up in Boise, Obama told them that "he wasn't going to take their guns away" but here in San Francisco he tells those billionaires that while serious gun control isn't political feasible right now that he, Obama, would work to close loopholes and ban certain types of guns. On gay rights, he tells us that he is for full equality but not for transgendered because again it's not politically feasible but then he goes around South Carolina with Donnie McClurkin preaching to Churches that homosexuality is immoral and can be cured. Or he spends time with his good friend the Reverend Wright who thinks HIV is a government plot or the Reverend Meeks a strident homophobe. The problem for Obama is that Rev. James Meeks, like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, preaches a message that appears to be directly at odds with the promise of hope, unity and bridging social, racial and political divisions upon which his campaign is built. That will turn off both progressives and conservatives and many moderates.
On Iraq he gave a speech in 2002. Well done! In the Senate he has voted to fund the war every single time. His mentor in the Senate is Joe Lieberman. His voting record in the Senate is nearly identical to Clinton's on Iraq. 84 out of 85. The sole difference is that Clinton did not vote to confirm General Casey who turned out to be well a disaster. And while Obama is saying he wants out of Iraq, his advisors are saying something else. And to be frank, we are not going to leave Iraq until we get a consensus from the DC and NY foreign policy estalishment in which they are satisfied that Iraq is not going to be left in a vacuum. That is going to require getting a regional agreement and perhaps a partition of Iraq. The foreign policy establishment trusts Clinton or McCain though they would take different tacts and approaches both would be something that the foreign policy establishment could likely support. Obama is a crap shoot. He's inexperienced and while he may have gotten the big picture right in 2002, during his tenure in the Senate he has failed to call a sub-committee meeting on Afghanistan, where the war really is to begin with and where it is going rather badly. His comments on Pakistan were appalling. He lacks not only gravitas but judgment in the details.
NAFTA has not been a disaster. The problem is China, not Mexico or Canada. Wages in Mexico are much higher than in China. Job growth in Mexico has been neglible why do you think there is an illegal immigration problem in the US? If there were jobs in Mexico, there would be fewer migrants here.
Healthcare? His healthcare proposals run $4,200 per new insured person and doesn't cover everyone. Clinton's plan runs $2,300 per new insured and does approach universality. It's not a single-payer system but it's more affordable and casts a wider net. Obama is hard to take seriously on healthcare because for 60 years the Democratic Party has had but one goal: universal health care and so for many of us we see his proposals as a sell-out of core Democratic values. A frequent complaint.
Energy is another issue with Obama. He's Cheney-light. Bigger on ethanol than the others and ethanol has a horrible ROI, about 14%. It takes 7 BOEs to make 8 BOEs of ethanol. He's a huge fan of coal and nuclear both of which have major problems. He says he doesn't take money from oil companies. True. No one does. It is illegal. He does however take money from oil company employees.
Ditto lobbyists. He claims that he doesn't take any money from registered lobbyists. True. But take his wife's former law firm Sidley-Austin LLP. It is the sixth largest law firm in the world with over a billion dollars in revenues with clients that are mostly Fortune 500. Guess what? It is a registered lobbyist. But Obama doesn't collect contriutions from the lawyers in the firm who registered lobbyist only from those who are not. It is a partnership. Compensation is pooled so the work of one benefits all. He is mincing the truth. And like Sidley-Austin he has 18 other law firms who are registered lobbyists that bundle cash for him.
He likes to make believe that his prodigious amount of cash comes from small donors over the Internet. Less than 50% does. Small donation being defined as $200 or less.
Should Obama win the nomination, he would lose the general election by a wide margin. I won't vote for him. He's inexperienced, dangerous, hypocritical, a fraud and he's not a Democrat. I'll sit it out and hope for Edwards in 2012.
But Obama supporters don't have a problem with any of the above because they take him at his word. He touts his own messanic qualities with his "we are the ones we have been waiting for." You realize that to some that sounds like a cult of personality. And the fact that you can't see obvious flaws only reinforces that assertion.
I prefer Clinton. She has flaws, no doubt and there is much I overlook, but I think she is a fighter and not an appeaser or someone who is afraid to expend political capital on tough issues like gay rights, healthcare or gun control. She's the only Democrat in the race and if given the chance she will be the best President and the most transformative since FDR.

[ Parent ]

A speech ref doesn't equal a remedy for injustice (5.00 / 7) (#18)
by Ellie on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:16:24 AM EST

This conceit that since Obama gives good speeches, it makes him the second coming of MLK, just doesn't pass muster.

MLK was at the forefront of demanding change, creating strategies to keep issues on the front burner, and -- here's the important part -- being the FIRST one to take the hits for doing so.

He LED. He was OUT FRONT. He locked arms against the purveyors of injustice.

He didn't hide nor run from his words and actions. He didn't cozy up to the same people he called out when it was opportune for his political needs of the moment.

As another TL poster stillife pointed out, this notion of Obama's that all he has to do is give a speech and Presto Change-O all will be solved is simply ludicrous.

Even Obama's speeches aren't his own. They're cobbled bits and bites from much greater people, and much braver and smarter activists.

It's often said that pols are all talk no action. Obama is this in the extreme.

: and don't forget (5.00 / 6) (#25)
by angie on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:33:52 AM EST

MLK wasn't doing these things to garner glory for himself, or to get himself elected to public office.

[ Parent ]

Just because Obama says it's so (5.00 / 3) (#19)
by Mark Woods on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:17:30 AM EST

Doesn't make it real. Isn't this exactly what we've been saying about Bush for 8 years? I place no confidence in Obama at all to stand up for the rights of my me and my gay family.

He's merely making nice with GLBT community after the PR debacle with the Philadelphia gay newspaper, that's all -- damage control.

I will work to elect Hillary because she has the proven track record for our issues, not Mr. Johnny-come-lately-Obama.

In my estimation, either we elect Hillary or move to Canada, if we want hope of equal rights in my lifetime.

And let's see whether Obama ever will take a stand on the new Florida gay marriage ban bill -- oh that's right -- we bad, so we don't exist.

I am seriously (5.00 / 2) (#28)
by facta non verba on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:40:54 AM EST

tryig to talk my partner in moving as well. I am tired of this nonsense.

[ Parent ]

Does Canada (5.00 / 2) (#41)
by MKS on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:02:22 AM EST

have gay marriage?

Here in California, there was a recent poll that showed people favoring gay marriage by three points....The California Legislature passed a gay marriage bill that was vetoed by Arnold....

They key is having more Democrats elected to public office.

[ Parent ]

: Yes, Canada does (5.00 / 4) (#54)
by badger on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:23:00 AM EST

And the key is electing the right kind of Democrats to public office, not those who are afraid to lead on any issue, much less gay rights.
It makes almost no difference what the polling is on gay marriage - hardly anybody lists it among the top 5 or 10 issues they care about most or the issues that decide their vote. The few who do aren't voting Democratic anyway.
But if you don't lead strongly on any major issue, then the GOP (which doesn't either) gets to frame the debate in terms of things like flag burning, the Pledge of Allegiance, abortion or gay rights. By centering your campaign around nebulous concepts like hope, change and unity, you allow the GOP to define the issues and the terms of the debate.

[ Parent ]
: Would that include (5.00 / 1) (#98)
by kenoshaMarge on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 07:06:48 AM EST

people like the 48 Blue Dog Democrats in the House that do everything they can to obstruct any progressive agenda?
Electing Democrats isn't enough. Electing "Progressive" Democrats is what's needed.

[ Parent ]
: Yes (none / 0) (#134)
by Just another person on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:17:32 AM EST

Canada does have gay marriage. Marriage is now defined constitutionally as a union between two persons (not a man and a woman).

[ Parent ]

I Agree This Interview Was Damage Control (5.00 / 1) (#46)
by NOBAMA08 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:09:33 AM EST

for not speaking to Philadelphia Gay News. I heard a lot of complaining from my gay friends as well as allies. As an ally I was also wondering why he turned down the interview and what he was planning to do to get back in the gay community's good graces. This is it. Axelrove or someone on his campaign probably told him that he should do a high profile interview with a gay magazine before he loses his latte drinking gay S.F. vote. I really cannot trust anything that comes out of his mouth anymore. I'm not saying I trust ANY politician including Clinton, but Obama is just another John Kerry. The GOP will be label him a flip-flopping elitist, which he is.

[ Parent ]

Media control (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:23:57 AM EST

not just damage control IMHO. He wanted to pick a more established place to give his interview. I am guessing (GUESSING) he was able to control the questioning better. More canned responses, less real thinking.

[ Parent ]

I'd say (none / 0) (#73)
by hlr on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:05:22 AM EST

pick a more established place

he had Philly's black vote in mind. They are less likely to bump into The Advocate.

[ Parent ]

: Exactly right. (none / 0) (#138)
by oldpro on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:26:10 AM EST

[ Parent ]

This is what kills me. . . (5.00 / 1) (#103)
by hellskitchen on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 08:12:48 AM EST

Isn't this exactly what we've been saying about Bush for 8 years?

Having voted for Gore and for Kerry, having watched otherwise intelligent people vote for Bush and then, finally six year later, I watch them give themselves a V8 smack on the head for not understanding what a deceiver Bush was, and now people are making the same mistake about Obama.

Hey, what's that I hear about learning the lessons of history?

[ Parent ]

: What kills me... (5.00 / 1) (#140)
by oldpro on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:28:59 AM EST

is seeing the people who voted for Gore and Kerry make the same mistake as those who voted for GWB, unable to recognize the syndrome when it applies to them!
Argggghhh....

[ Parent ]

Unity = no courage to change (5.00 / 6) (#21)
by Prabhata on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:29:25 AM EST

That's the problem I see with BO's unity schtik, but people buy it. I wish I could support him, but I don't see any possibility of that happening. The more he talks, the less I trust him and the less I like him.

The timing is suspect (5.00 / 4) (#24)
by facta non verba on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:32:29 AM EST

because he was vilified in the Philadelphia Gay News for not giving interviews with the gay media. So now one with the Advocate. He was asked about the lack of interviews with the gay media and his response:

Obviously, when you've got limited amount of time, you've got so many outlets. We tend not to do a whole bunch of specialized press. We try to do general press for a general readership.

Pathetic on that score. He is always a day late and a dollar short. Same contempt for Hispanics. Could be because we are not his number one fans.

And why aren't we fans?

Oh Donnie McClurkin, the Reverend Meeks, not wanting to get his picture taken with Gavin Newsom, his instance that gay marriage is a state's rights issue which means gays in Utah get that all too familiar shaft.

Then he gets to EDNA which is bone of contention because it leaves out the transgendered. As a point of reference let's take the Spanish situation where the Spanish PM Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero enacted a law protecting the 13,000 transgendered people in Spain against the most unbelieveable opposition by the Catholic Church and the opposition Partido Popular. Why did Zapatero do this? Because it was the morally right thing to do.

And so the Advocate asked: You think it's transgender-inclusive?

Obama's answer:

I think that's going to be tough, and I've said this before. I have been clear about my interest in including gender identity in legislation, but I've also been honest with the groups that I've met with that it is a heavy lift through Congress. We've got some Democrats who are willing to vote for a non-inclusive bill but we lose them on an inclusive bill, and we just may not be able to generate the votes. I don't know. And obviously, my goal would be to get the strongest possible bill -- that's what I'll be working for.

Again just like the credit card rate cap, the best deal I can get. Like Jeralyn stated in the introduction, no political capital will be expended. So every proposal begins as a sell-out?

But what really gets me mad his premise that gays should be talking to those who want to kill us. He said it in the Febrary letter to the Human Rights Council and he repeats here in slightly different form:

The flip side of it is, you never create the opportunity for people to have a conversation and to lift some of these issues up and to talk about them and to struggle with them, and our campaign is built around the idea that we should all be talking.

The idea that I am going to have something to say to James Dobson, the FRC, or whomever else he thinks I should negotiate my human rights is simply absurd. James Dobson has no say in whether I can marry my partner or not. No one does.

To close what does a President have if not political capital?

How is Obama's position (3.00 / 1) (#26)
by MKS on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:40:05 AM EST

really different than Hillary's?

They both:

1. Are in favor of civil unions
2 Oppose gay marrieage
3. Want to abolish don't ask, don't tell in the military.

They are indistinguishable on the actual issues....

[ Parent ]

Same but different (5.00 / 6) (#29)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:46:49 AM EST

It really comes down to trust. And frankly I don't trust Obama on any issue. I believe has come with a set of "positions" that he will "support". But has nothing that he will fight for. Except his nomination of course.

[ Parent ]

What this tells me (5.00 / 1) (#115)
by Kathy on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 09:13:00 AM EST

is that Obama sees the gay community as fighting for special rights, not human rights. He's looking at protecting our transgendered brothers and sisters as a luxury. And of course, GLBTs choose their sexuality, so why not?

"Yeah, I'll get to it, you know, when I have time. But vote for me anyway."

Here is a great clip from an HRC banquet wherein her leadership role in defeating anti-gay legislation is highlighted:


[ Parent ]

Hillary as fighter (3.00 / 1) (#40)
by MKS on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:58:07 AM EST

and Obama as seeker of common ground....That is really a difference that cuts across many issues....I am not big fan of Hillary the fighter....I saw a video of her in the very early days circa 1980 saying about Bill's opponent that she "would bash his brains out." This was before any of her travails....

The reason I think her negatives are so high is because she is so combative....I am just not a believer in that being effective....

Seeking common ground does not mean compromising on principle....

[ Parent ]

Well (5.00 / 3) (#43)
by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:04:37 AM EST

We wouldn't want to reduce a 20 year career down to one soundbite would we?

[ Parent ]

: I don't think people change (3.00 / 1) (#45)
by MKS on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:06:25 AM EST

that much.
I think McCain was shortfused hothead before the Hanoi Hilton....

[ Parent ]

Fighter (5.00 / 5) (#49)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:15:00 AM EST

may mean different things to different people. Most GLBT persons that I know (including myself) don't expect ANYONE to charge into congress, sword drawn chanting " they're here, they're queer, get used to it!"

But rather, to have a solid ideology that will not be compromised. Of course negotiations must occur. Of course reasonable discourse is desirable. But when failure occurs (and it will) I expect my candidate to try again and again and again. Not say " well, we tried". That is one of the differences I see.

[ Parent ]

actually that is what you should expect (5.00 / 1) (#70)
by TheRefugee on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:54:34 AM EST

I'm for Hillary to be sure and I think her willingness to meet with and march with the GLBT community shows her the more unbiased candidate but I go off a purely constitutional, declaration of independence interpretation.

I've always had a problem with blacks being left as a fraction. The same could be said in modern times about gays. The government doesn't see your community as being of 5/5 a person.

What should be expected of a true patriot, a true friend to the citizenry of the US is that that person would march into Congress demanding that "If all men are created equal...then all have the same rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If one person is excluded from the full freedoms of this country then this Constitution isn't worth the ink with which it was penned. We have had over 200 years to right the wrongs of our forefathers. It took us 80 years to demand that all people be free from forced servitude. It took us several more decades before blacks and women were created equally enough to earn the right to vote. It took several more decades to realize that a man was a man was a man and a woman was a woman was a woman regardless of the color of their skin; that a black student could learn alongside a white student, that a white couple could share a restaurant with a black couple, that a white man could legally love a black woman and vice versa. You would think that we would have learned to work faster in cases concerning equality for all--but we haven't. How many decades must a man who loves a man, or a woman who loves a woman wait before they too are included as fully protected equal beings in the eyes of this country? We proclaim ourselves as beacons of light in a world full of darkness, yet we trailed behind the civilized world in ending slavery, trailed again in granting suffrage, trailed again ending segregation and allowing lawful mixed race marriage. Once again this country, the beacon of light, is shrouded in the darkness we claim to abhor as we lag behind other nations in granting equal rights to our GLBT citizens. I call on this country to act, to finally enforce the words, that all persons are created equal regardless of creed; regardless of race; regardless of color; regardless of heritage; regardless of gender; regardless of sexual orientation."

Or something like that.

[ Parent ]

: What you said (none / 0) (#128)
by allimom99 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:06:13 AM EST

[ Parent ]
: ERA....still waiting (none / 0) (#149)
by oldpro on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 10:48:02 AM EST

for that one to pass. Good luck with ... well, you know.
It's rare to make progress in leaps and bounds...usually we get there one day, one legislator, one law at a time. And for that to happen, our neighbors have to change their attitudes and their willingness to vote for GBLT advocates or issues.
It's slow and incremental but in my adult politically active lifetime it has...to my great surprise...changed almost totally. There are now 4 openly gay members in my state legislature. We began with one in the 90s.

[ Parent ]

If she is a fighter tell me what (none / 0) (#80)
by voterin2008 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:33:52 AM EST

she has actually won? Besides NAFTA of course.

[ Parent ]

She has won (5.00 / 1) (#81)
by LoisInCo on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:36:40 AM EST

my respect, my admiration, and my trust. Anything other than that is just a bonus!

[ Parent ]

: Well I do admire honesty, and if Clinton is the (none / 0) (#83)
by voterin2008 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:42:05 AM EST

nominee I will vote for her as well she would be a great president. I just like you believe my candidate would be better.

[ Parent ]

So...... (none / 0) (#188)
by michitucky on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:07:20 PM EST

You're ok with Michelle Obama stating she'd like to claw Bill Clinton's eyes???

[ Parent ]

The difference is... (5.00 / 5) (