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Late Night: Small Town (2004 DNC)

John Mellencamp performing "Small Town" at the DNC in Boston, 2004.

Obama tries to cover his Gaffe (video)-- did he succeed? Seems to me he sidestepped his insults as if he never made them. Where does he address, let alone apologize for this comment?

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

This is an open thread.

Update: Hillary and McCain respond to Obama's Indiana remarks about his S.F. statement: [More...]

“Instead of apologizing for offending small town America, Senator Obama chose to repeat and embrace the comments he made earlier this week,” said Phil Singer, a spokesman for Mrs. Clinton. He added, “Americans are tired of a President who looks down on them, they want a President who will stand up for them for a change.”

Tucker Bounds, a spokesman for Mr. McCain, issued a similar response.

“Instead of apologizing to small town Americans for dismissing their values, Barack Obama arrogantly tried to spin his way out of his outrageous San Francisco remarks,” Mr. Bounds said, adding: “You can’t be more out of touch than that.”

Update: Comments over 200, now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Dang I go out to dinner.... (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:37:00 PM EST
    ...and all heck breaks loose.

    I doze off (5.00 / 2) (#211)
    by cal1942 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:09:53 AM EST
    in a chair after dinner and all hell breaks loose.  

    I like BTD but I can't agree with his final statement.

    "Not good. But Obama is a Media Darling and Bill Clinton screwed up today so Obama will get away with it mostly unscathed. That's why he is the better choice for Dem nominee."

    NO. He's not the better choice for the Democratic nominee. The media hates anything Clinton and Obama's their pet now only because he's opposing Clinton. If Obama is the nominee; come GE time they'll toss him aside like a one-night stand and go back to their everlasting love for McCain.

    It just won't make any difference who the Democratic nominee is when the gates open.

    The fact is, Obama isn't ready for prime time, has no convictions except himself and if elected could be a catastrophe for the Democratic party.

    Think of it this way: What would have happened if Al Smith had won the Democratic nomination in 1932 instead of Franklin Roosevelt.

    The New Deal was NOT a natural byproduct of the Great Depression.  It took the leadership of a real progressive with an understanding of the importance of economic justice to battle for the reforms known as the New Deal.  Smith's beliefs were the antihesis of Roosevelt's.

    [ Parent ]

    Hell breaks or expands to this new thread (none / 0) (#119)
    by andrys on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:25:20 AM EST
    At the older thread, closed now,
    Fabian said:

    His speeches are getting more and more predictable though.  Pretty soon someone will have a ObamaOratory program that will accept inputs[state, target demographic, significant issues] and crank out a speech for him.

    So he manages to say "I am running for President specifically so I can save you and you and  you.".  It's a good line, but how often can he use it before someone says "Hey, the only Change we've seen in these parts is a change for the worse.  What will you do that is different than what everyone else did?".

    Fabian, is this Obama Inspirationotron be a good start?

    [ Parent ]

    I think Jeralyn (5.00 / 0) (#5)
    by bjorn on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:49:34 PM EST
    got it just right. He seems to have completely side-stepped the offensive part of what he said, as if it was not said.  It might work unless the MSM pushes it further though.  Hopefully, someone will ask him about it at the PA debate later this month.

    Wonder how the voters would feel (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by nycstray on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:15:13 PM EST
    if they heard the original comments along with the laughter.

    damn he ticks me off {self censoring!}

    [ Parent ]

    Playing voters (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Practically Lactating on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:23:20 PM EST
    Sometimes I don't know whether to despise the man or admire him for the way he's played the voters.

    If that were my metric, George W Bush would be my hero.

    [ Parent ]

    He totally ignored the real problem (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by ajain on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:55:22 PM EST
    Clinton and McCain camps have both responded to that by saying that it is unfortunate that he didnt apologize for his comments.

    By embracing his comments I'm not sure what he does for himself. I mean calling people bitter and resentful is not the best way to get them to vote for you.

    Its hilarious that Clinton actually bashed him for not being optimistic. I mean this is the hope-change candidate.

    Has he ever spent any time (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:47:04 PM EST
    in a small town except to make a campaign stop?  He simply doesn't know what he's talking about, he's just repeating elitist crap stereotypes.

    The farmers in my small town (pop 1,200) voted solidly for him, and I feel bad for them if they hear about these comments.  The church is the center of life in this town, everybody hunts and owns guns.  There's no anti-immigrant fervor of any kind here.  The Jamaican guys who come to pick our apple crop are greeted every year like returning family, and the Mexicans of dubious status who work on many of the farms are fiercely protected from questioning by immigration authorities.  Both are well paid and housed in good homes.  My overwhelmingly white town elected a gay man with two little adopted African-American daughters to the school committee, for crying out loud.

    There are some angry, bitter, bigoted people in some small towns, I have no doubt, but I frankly saw much, much more of that poison in the "liberal" suburbs I used to live in than the small town that's now my home.

    This just makes me crazy.  The Democratic Party is supposed to stick up for not just African-Americans but also all working people and farmers, not trash them in order to court favor with wealthy white suburbanites.

    The folks here are low-information voters, but idealistic, and the shine in their eyes when they talk about voting for Obama is something to be proud of.  I haven't said a peep about my opinion of him because I can't bear to say a discouraging word about their idealism.

    Damn.

    [ Parent ]

    I have to agree regarding stereotypes (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Practically Lactating on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:01:10 AM EST
    Admittedly, this is anecdotal, but I grew up in what some would call the dirty south and went to an extremely liberal liberal arts school, spent some time on the east coast and jumped around. I found there to be equal stereotyping and denigration of other mindsets in all places. It's just that some kinds of prejudice are more acceptable than others.

    Personally, I find disparaging remarks towards middle class Americans just as unacceptable as racist remarks, but I am learning that this opinion is not shared by everyone.

    [ Parent ]

    Small Town, Big City Neighborhood not much diff (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Ellie on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:00:55 PM EST
    Fewer chickens in the latter, but a lot of the same principles apply.

    I was born in a small town too and even after moving to the Big Bad City, the differences weren't huge.

    The food was better in the former, though. We always had farm-fresh eggs and dairy and unbelievable bread, right out of the local bakery's wood-fired oven.

    We moved to the market district of Scenic Undisclosed Location and got the benefit of fantastic fare from "small town" merchants who came from similar places all over the world, so YUM.

    If it were up to me to unify disparate parties and factions, I'd demand a sit-down ... lunch.

    We have this awesome Amish market... (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by kredwyn on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:33:59 PM EST
    I don't know when it started or how long it's been going on. But the summer squash? They're huge...like they're supposed to be. Same with the zucchini.

    Totally love it.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (none / 0) (#79)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:50:48 PM EST
    The food is glorious in the summer, in the winter not so much if you're many miles away from a supermarket with imported produce.

    But the truly fresh eggs! (groan) An egg still warm from the hen is food for the gods.

    [ Parent ]

    Real scrambled eggs w/ real buttered toast? Ahhh (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Ellie on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:08:20 AM EST
    The real deal with 100% organic fresh fare is simply unbeatable! It's still hands down my favorite meal, and don't get me started on what real milk does to home-roasted coffee.

    I was always being accused of distorting the food bragging with nostalgia until some foodies I know hit the family farm with me.

    Chicken soup? ("It's like the chicken was honored to die for this!")

    Salad? THIS is diet food?!?

    My advice to novice cooks: make simple stuff from excellent ingredients and you'll never go wrong.

    [ Parent ]

    and cheaper too! (none / 0) (#85)
    by white n az on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:59:20 PM EST
    have you seen the price of eggs lately? In fact, food prices are way, way up.

    [ Parent ]
    In Philly for the night (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by andgarden on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:06:55 PM EST
    a survey of about an hour of local broadcast TV shows that Hillary and Obama are about matched in the air war. Obama is running the ad where he talks to a group in a room about drug companies. Hillary is running the Nutter and the Rendell ad.

    This is so slimy (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by bjorn on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:07:13 PM EST
    He did not own what he said.  I am more disgusted with him after watching the video. It is one thing to read it, another all together to watch him twist it around like Clinton said something wrong and not him.  Gross! If you did not know what he said, what he really said, then this would work.  But if you know what he actually said at the fundraiser, this makes him look worse IMO.

    That really was Clinton's fault (1.00 / 2) (#155)
    by andrys on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:42:39 AM EST
    She did this badly.  You could see her thinking, "How can I take advantage of this without bringing up 'guns' ?"

      It was too calculating by half, and all she complained about was that he said they are bitter.  WELL, SOME ARE!  Pollyanna words from her will not be helpful here.

      What the harmful (for him) words from Obama were had to do with his equating the smalltown's bitterness with the economy CAUSING them to "cling to religion" -- and then linking 'religion' as an item alongside guns as well as racial and cultural prejudice (attitudes toward people who are different or who are immigrating [illegally, I presume].

      And that he said these words, based on values of the current audience, at a mansion in San Francisco, to only the richest people in the area (or in the world) invited to attend.  Reporters weren't allowed.  I'm surprised that a tape was made and was released.  Here again is the setting for those words, with photographs, as mentioned here a couple of days ago.  The monied people wanted to know why he wasn't doing better with the less-monied folks in Pennsylvania and other big states.

      She'll have to do better.  I was disappointed with her response.

    [ Parent ]

    What did he say in PA? (none / 0) (#29)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:15:41 PM EST
    I thought he made the offending remarks in San Francisco.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL, thought I was missing something. . (none / 0) (#43)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:23:57 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    comments (5.00 / 8) (#18)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:07:33 PM EST
    Here's the thing, for me, about his comments:  they were a way for him to blame the voters for not supporting him.  

    I agree with everyone who says they were insulting, stereotyping, elitist.  But they were also (again) deflecting attention from an obama shortcoming.

    Because what he was asked was why is he having trouble in pennsylvania.  And his response - rather than saying he had more leg work to do or he had to break through or whatever - was to basically say "these are a bunch of ignorant folks who don't know what their real problems are and don't know I will make it all better."

    So it's THEIR fault they haven't seen the light and it's THEIR fault he might lose.

    Nice.

    I don't think you're (none / 0) (#20)
    by 1jpb on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:10:38 PM EST
    going to be a BO speech writer anytime soon:

    "these are a bunch of ignorant folks who don't know what their real problems are and don't know I will make it all better."


    [ Parent ]
    you're right (5.00 / 5) (#40)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:21:57 PM EST
    I should have written, "a bunch of xenophobic, gun-toting, religous nuts who don't know I can make it all better."

    That would have been closer to the spirit of his comments.

    [ Parent ]

    what gets me is - (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:21:01 AM EST
    when Hillary goofs - she hurts HERSELF the most.
    But Obama smacks down Dems and Dem Party positions - and sees nothing wrong with it!!
    He hurts the Party longterm - even if he's not the nominee.
    That's the shortsightedness of Obama's unity schtick.  He's going to bring EVERYBODY together - but first he has to pi** off a LARGE chunk of Democrats!
    But of course - ALL the Dems will fall in line at the convention and ALL will fall down at the feet of Obama.
    Right?


    [ Parent ]
    Ha. Not right. (none / 0) (#129)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:31:30 AM EST
    But what a test for the unity theme. I think it has gone too far for many. Maybe not outside of the blogging world, although I know a lot of non bloggers who are not supporting BHO. They have a pretty good idea of what is going on and even recognize the media bias. They are not amused.

    [ Parent ]
    Hey, look over there! (none / 0) (#117)
    by blogtopus on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:23:21 AM EST
    is that a dikfer?

    [ Parent ]
    Bitterness (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by mouth of the south on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:08:01 PM EST
    I don't know about you guys but I AM bitter, frustrated, melancholy, depressed, hurt, and mad as hell at what has become of our country in the last 7 years.  Aren't you?  I find it refreshing to hear someone finally say it out loud.  Of course those who have lost their good jobs forever are bitter about it.  Who wouldn't be?  I just wish I had something to turn to like religion, but the religion that I grew up with is long gone in the part of the South that I live in, taken away from me by the Christianists.  I hate guns, so there goes that solice.  I don't hate Mexicans or Black people, in fact I like them.  So I am left with just bitterness and very little hope of salvation for our beloved county.  I get so discouraged that our hope for a Democratic President will be snatched from us and that we will turn to McCain who, in my humble opinion is far worse than Bush ever thought about being.  I just wish we would stop castigating our candidates who try to speak truth to us.  We need to hear the truth and not just platitudes.  We need a thorough cleansing of the unmitigated crap that has been heaped on all of us during the Bush administration.  Let's not blow it by tearing each other apart. Let's encourage our two very great candidates to be courageous and speak truth to us even if it hurts.  Let's not punish a candidate who is trying to start the process of healing that we so desperately need. It is not insulting to anyone to observe the obvious fact that the majority of Americans ARE bitter about the state of our government and the perilous financial problems that the majority of Americans are facing.  The future of our county is literally hanging in the balance in this election.  We MUST come together as a party and support whichever candidate wins the Democratic election.  To do otherwise and vote for McCain would be to surrender to our bitterness and disappointment to the great detriment of our country!  And I know none of us want that.

    Bitter was not the offensive word (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by nellre on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:18:00 PM EST
    The offensive word was "cling".

    I can't imagine anybody worse than Bush.


    [ Parent ]

    Bitter (none / 0) (#48)
    by mouth of the south on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:28:53 PM EST
    I just wish I had something to cling to like religion.  What keeps me going is my total commitment to seeing a Democrat elected President of this county this year.  Haven't you noticed the pervasive bitterness in this country towards free trade, immigration, our lying government, our ineffective House and Senate, the terrible waste of this war in Iraq?  God, the bitterness is so thick in this country that you could cut it with a knife.  That is one reason we are all so fervant about our chosen candidates.  I thorougly understand why people are so angry at either Obama or Clinton, depending upon whom they are supporting.  I get that way myself sometimes, but I still understand the Clinton supporters' feelings and I respect them,  But it won't get us a Democrat as President in this coming election and that is what we all want so badly that we have poured our whole hearta and souls into this election.  

    [ Parent ]
    Did you say all that to the Obama campaign (5.00 / 8) (#36)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:20:14 PM EST
    when they were accusing Hillary and Bill and all those other people of being race-baiters?

    No?  I didn't think so.

    Listen, whether intentionally or not, this man is not a healer in any sense of the word.  He's the most divisive guy I've seen come along in the Dem. Party in many years.  He cannot "heal" the divisions in this country by trashing half of all Democratic voters, Dem. leadership who don't support him, folks who are pro-choice, folks who are low-income, folks who live in small towns all over America, his own hard-working grandma, for God's sake.

    If you want healing, get behind Hillary, who has done NONE of those things.


    [ Parent ]

    He is divisive because he is a weak (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by MarkL on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:27:16 PM EST
    (unqualified) candidate with a lot of ambition and decent political instincts. Because he has nothing to run on, he has to tear the other candidates down.

    [ Parent ]
    he can't win the general (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by bigbay on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:48:02 PM EST
    In fact, he could get less than 40 %, at this rate. I do not want a Republican for another 8 years.

    At some point, his supporters are going to have to look at his weakness in PA and Ohio, and his propensity for gaffes. Calling small town America racist, bitter and weak (clinging) means it's over for him in those states.

    [ Parent ]

    He can just forget about (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Arcadianwind on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:19:34 AM EST
    Pa and Ohio, WV, TN, IN, FL, MI, MO, and WI now.
    He'll have to make do with those caucus states.

    [ Parent ]
    And those caucus states don't (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by andrys on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:50:39 AM EST
    ...the caucus states don't vote in the activist-oriented mob scene way during the general election.  Voting via primaries is far closer to GE processes, both of which include more than a small subset of the population of the area.

      And in the GE, they even include people from that other party.  His caucus results will mean almost nothing because they were not reflected in the big states with a wide range of Americans included.  And then those were just the Democrats.

    [ Parent ]

    I am voting for Hillary (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:33:26 PM EST
    So I hope the Obama people will heed your advice to come together.  There are bitter people all over the United States. I have disliked the last 7 years of GW ruling but I was not bitter. I was frustrated that he got elected, I was frustrated we could not get him out of office in 04, I am frustrated that after 2006, we are still not doing what we said we would do. What annoys me right now is that he talked about the people in Penna like we were the pits of the earth. Believe me, I have not spent 7 years being bitter. I used my voice but at the same time, I managed to go on with my life very nicely in my small town in PA. If any of you caught American Idol the other night where they were trying to get books to the children in Kentucky, I am sure your heart broke for those people. It was like the world discovering that there are poor people in New Orleans. And it broke my heart that we are spending so much money on other things and we never have enough to take care of our own. But don't worry, I will not vote for McCain because I am voting for President Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    I appreciate your heartfelt concern (5.00 / 7) (#63)
    by ChrisO on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:38:49 PM EST
    I really do. I'm not bitter, mostly because I see things changing, and I'm very confident that the Dems will control the White House and both houses of Congress next year. But really, this is an election. Whenever I hear people crediting a candidate for "telling the truth," I know the candidate just put his foot in his mouth. When Jimmy Carter said there was a malaise in this country, he was probably right. But then sunny, optimistic Ronald Reagan came along, and people said "That Jimmy Carter is a downer." The party out of power has a fine line to walk. It has to emphasize the fact that things have gone wrong under the current administration, but voters are turned off by candidates who say "everything sucks" and "people are miserable." That's why candidates always couch their criticisms with phrases like "You deserve better." People want optimism in their candidates.

    One of the reasons I support Hillary is that I see her as a tough politician who will use the Presidency to the best effect. I don't advocate her lying, but incessantly telling the truth is not always good politics, and I don't demand that of her.

    I say most of the above  because I'm responding to your comment. I think it's important to add the other part of the equation: what Obama said isn't necessarily the truth. I'm an East Coast, latte drinking liberal. But I come from a working class background, and even though I've left things like church going behind me, I recognize that not evryone is like me. I know many sophisticated, intelligent people who go to church with their families every Sunday. If anything, I think some churchgoers might be a little defensive, knowing that the intelligentsia looks down on them and their simple beliefs.  Obama's statement makes it clear that he shares that disdainful attitude towards the simple folk in middle America.

    Their desire to go hunting is so foreign to him, he can only think they are "clinging" to their guns out of fear and resentment. And by the way, this is reinforced by the fact that he delivered his little talk in front of a bunch of San Francisco liberals, in a setting that really made it sound like he was talking about "those people." If you asked the Clinton campaign what would be the most damaging place for Obama to make that kind of statement, they would have plunked him down right in the same spot, at a San Francisco fundraiser.

    Of course, his followers complain that his remarks are being misinterpreted, because only sophisiticate voters can understand the nuance behind them. Way to get those people he insulted back on his side. But since they insist, how's this for nuance? Obama recently defended his membership in his church in part because there are so many positive aspects to belonging, aside from the inflammatory statements that he never heard. So his church membership is based on positivity, but the hicks in central Pennsylvania "cling" to religion because they're being used and manipulated. That should fix everything.

    [ Parent ]

    Interesting (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by facta non verba on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:32:36 AM EST
    You wrote:

    Their desire to go hunting is so foreign to him, he can only think they are "clinging" to their guns out of fear and resentment. And by the way, this is reinforced by the fact that he delivered his little talk in front of a bunch of San Francisco liberals, in a setting that really made it sound like he was talking about "those people." If you asked the Clinton campaign what would be the most damaging place for Obama to make that kind of statement, they would have plunked him down right in the same spot, at a San Francisco fundraiser.

    And yet he told the good people up in Boise before the Idaho primary that he wasn't going to take their guns away because there were hunters in southern Illinois and so he understood them.

    The comments were made here in San Francisco and guns aren't so cool here. I'm guessing that his comments came at the Pacific Heights Getty Mansion, home of Ann and Gordon Getty, where one of his three Bay Area fundraisers were held. The others were in Atherton down on the penisula and up in Marin in Kentfield. Atherton & Kentfield are two of the wealthiest communities in the US. All this makes me think back to those comments to the good people of Boise back in late January. Was he sincere? Or they too clinging to their guns? In SF, we all too often take a dim view of the rest of the US, but does not give Obama the right to disparage people who are struggling. That is not a San Francisco value.

    Photos from the event:

    http://www.zombietime.com/obama_visits_billionaires_row/

    [ Parent ]

    No I'm not bitter (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by angie on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:39:19 PM EST
    I'm disappointed, I'm mad, but I'm not bitter -- words matter, right?  Furthermore, my disappointment doesn't make me "cling to religion" as I had religion before, but then again maybe I'm so stupid that religion is my opiate like it is for the rest of the unwashed masses Obama was referring to -- you know, the coal miners, steel workers, the "back bone of America, salt of the earth" people who live in small town PA.
    I notice how you mentioned your disappointment in the last 7 (W) years.  Obama lumped our only 2 term Dem president since FDR into his comments, because he said the last 25 years. Another revisionist history on Obama's part that I refuse to overlook or let him WORM his way out of.  


    [ Parent ]
    The majority of Americans voted (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:42:32 PM EST
    to reelect Bush so they really have no right to be bitter. And I don't think they are.

    [ Parent ]
    you want truth and not platitudes? (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by angie on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:06:00 AM EST
    then Obama is not your guy.

    [ Parent ]
    Stupid (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by jmcdonough120 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:12:40 PM EST
    from swimming freestyle:

    "Barack Obama is a remarkably eloquent man and turning into a remarkably capable politician.  But if the Senator believes it's smart to insult voters from a state critical to your success, he's hit one of the worst false notes yet in his campaign.

    Yeah, I know what his campaign said, and that may have been what he meant. But a sophisticated candidate doesn't refer to voters in language that can be construed as derogatory or insulting.  Obama asserted Pennsylvania voters are bitter and so simple and lacking in maturity and intelligence that they address their frustration by clinging to primitive and reactionary crutches rather than addressing their problems in constructive ways.

    It's divisive.  And not the way to attract the voters you need most."

    http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

    The problem I have with WORM (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:45:48 PM EST
    (What Obama Really Meant) is that a Harvard lawyer damn well ought to KNOW how to SAY what he MEANS in the first place!!! If Obama is so intelligent, why is he incapable of saying what he really means? Why does his campaign have to "clarify" his meaning every time he opens his mouth? Why can't he say what he means?? That is my main question regarding Obama's statements on anything that need WORMing. You know, until now WORM was something I did to my horses, dogs and cats. Not something I expect from a candidate.

    [ Parent ]
    He meant what he said! That's the problem (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by felizarte on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:13:02 AM EST
    He was speaking casually to a group of supporters.  He was saying his truth as several of his supporters have confirmed and applauded in this site. The truth about what a person really believes in has sometimes a funny way of oozing out at the most inappropriate time.

    I am one of those who rely on my faith in Divine Providence to sustain me with the stamina to cope with everyday challenges.  I am disappointed that the present administration has misused the opportunity to uphold the values of the founding fathers.  And I would be disappointed if once again, the majority of the voters elect someone incapable of righting the ship of state.

    I am glad that even if it is a little late in the process, the true beliefs and nature of Sen. Obama is coming to the surface when there is still a chance for people to rethink their inclination to nominate him.  I fo once have always believed that the times need someone like Hillary Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    insulting for months (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by 1950democrat on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:47:31 PM EST
    He's been insulting various groups of voters for months! For no particular reason that I could see, early on, he started insulting the whole Boomer generation.


    [ Parent ]
    Barack gaffes again (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Universal on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:15:34 PM EST
    This is not going to play well in PA, to say the least.

    I just finished a piece on the latest Obama imbroglio:

    http://www.villarrealsports.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=359

    Obama had been gaining well on Clinton in PA, but this should at minimum halt that trend. More likely, it will start the wheels moving in the other direction.

    Actually, he was starting to trend back (none / 0) (#50)
    by Cream City on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:30:31 PM EST
    a bit in the Real Clear Politics average of polls today nationwide.  The trendlines on the daily tracking polls are worth watching over a week or more, and Gallup's was starting to tighten a bit.  And Rasmussen's!  Obama had dropped in recent days from a 9-point lead to a 7-point lead to, today, a 3-point lead.

    Looking at those about three days from now will tell us whether the California comments will hit hard, huh?

    [ Parent ]

    susa has been nailing state after state (none / 0) (#61)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:37:44 PM EST
    they had Clinton up 18 this week...until they have Obama gaining ground I'm not buying...at some pt susa will get one wrong but till they do they are my pollster of choice.

    [ Parent ]
    oops maybe you (none / 0) (#64)
    by TheRefugee on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:38:55 PM EST
    were talking national, not PA..my mistake.

    [ Parent ]
    I was talking national polls, but yes (none / 0) (#83)
    by Cream City on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:57:44 PM EST
    I watch the Penn polls, too, and I think that SUSA may have been a bit high -- but I read that it will release two more polls before the Penn primary, and I suspect we'll see some impact from this.  (I don't know, though, when the next one is -- if SUSA started polling already, it won't tell us about any hit from this, as it will take a few days.)

    [ Parent ]
    He is making it harder and harder (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Practically Lactating on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:18:27 PM EST
    for me to support him in the GE. I'll get over it and vote for him anyway.

    I am an unabashed and loyal Democrat, but my interest in social justice trumps my party loyalty, particularly when I feel as though my party is undermining the core social beliefs which I subscribe. Though my low information brain has difficulty recognizing complicated moral issues like abortion, there are certain things I "cling" to out of bitterness. A woman's right to choose is one of them, as is my respect for all classes of people.

    If I get any more bitter.... (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:21:17 PM EST
    ...I'm going to start clinging to my bitterness.

    [ Parent ]
    With Bush it was outrage fatigue, (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by Practically Lactating on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:31:28 PM EST
    so I am looking forward to mixing things up a bit with some bitterness fatigue, or I would be, if I weren't already bitter from being a typical white woman.

    [ Parent ]
    good thing that (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Arcadianwind on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:39:46 PM EST
    you saved the bitterness till after dinner...
    tis better for digestion.

    [ Parent ]
    well there ya go..... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:47:06 PM EST
    ...my bitterness now has a purpose!

    [ Parent ]
    third way (5.00 / 0) (#82)
    by 1950democrat on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:57:19 PM EST
    He is making it harder and harder ... for me to support him in the GE. I'll get over it and vote for him anyway.

    There is a Third Way alternative -- ask your Superdelegates to support the better candidate for the nomination, namely Hillary.

    [ Parent ]

    seriously? (none / 0) (#87)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:01:23 AM EST
    ask your Superdelegates to support the better candidate for the nomination, namely Hillary.

    would you really want this?

    so IF the voters voted for Obama (more states, more votes, more delegates) you'd be ok w/ the superdelegates pushing Hillary into the nomination??? First, that won't happen and second, that is about the last thing, from a democratic or equitable point of view, should happen.  it is all happening.  

    [ Parent ]

    absolutely unequivocally 100% yes (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by TheRefugee on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:59:25 AM EST
    I'd rather the superdelegates get the nomination right than legitimize a popularity contest.  

    I use the term popularity contest because that is what caucuses are--the candidate with the most motivated supporters wins.  It has nothing to do with the will of the general public, just the will of the turnout.  And don't tell me that it matters that Obama's crowd made the effort.  There is a reason Clinton can't do well in Caucuses...her working class base has to..um...well..work on weekday afternoons and even some evenings.  The primary states Obama has won aren't going to matter in the GE, either they are strong blue or strong red...that Obama supporters trumpet caucus wins and red state wins as proof that he is electable..how is it that Hillary wins the swing states dems can't win the WH without?  That shouldn't be a more relevant factor than winning the Idaho caucus or Kansas?  Electoral projections shouldn't matter?  

    I get your point now.  Obama should be given the nomination because he will lose FL, MI, and probably lose PA and OH but he could expand the map by maybe winning NV and CO.  Makes sense now that I think about it.  Excuse my ignorance.

    [ Parent ]

    really? (none / 0) (#135)
    by 1950democrat on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:34:21 AM EST
    You said you'd find it hard to vote for Obama in the GE. Do you still think he's a better candidate than Hillary?


    [ Parent ]
    Rules are rules (none / 0) (#147)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:38:43 AM EST
    SD's can vote how they want, you cannot change the rules.  C'mon, play by the rules.  

    [ Parent ]
    sorry.... (none / 0) (#186)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:55:21 AM EST
    rules might be rules but superdelegates are people and people aren't stupid -- they're not going to support her.  suicide if they did, and as my friend the superdelegate said, "i ain't dying for her".

    [ Parent ]
    wow, another excellent well-reasoned (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by TheRefugee on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:01:15 AM EST
    rational expression of Obama-think--

    [ Parent ]
    superdelegates and metrics (none / 0) (#223)
    by 1950democrat on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:41:10 AM EST
    Not to take this thread further off topic, but maybe we could discuss this somewhere....

    If you think Hillary would be the better candidate but approve Superdelegates choosing  Obama instead on metrics like 'delegate lead' or 'states won', I'd like to discuss with you just what combination of metrics Hillary would have to win to meet your approval. (If you oppose Hillary for other reasons, no point wasting bandwidth.)

    And -- why are any metrics so important? As to suicide, what's important to most elected Supers would be their own constituents, and/or pressure from Kennedy or Pelosi et al. Those factors aside, if HIllary is more likely to win in November, wouldn't she be the safest one to support? Wouldn't it be kind of dangerous to the Super to support Obama and have him lose in November?


    [ Parent ]

    "from a democratic or equitable point of (none / 0) (#160)
    by nycstray on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:45:02 AM EST
    view"

    you mean like the 48 state strategy?

    [ Parent ]

    AWESOME... (none / 0) (#130)
    by jor on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:32:31 AM EST
    .. vote for McCain in the GE. Affirm your values. Seriously people who are going to vote for McCain over Hillary or Obama are NOT democrats in the first place. McCain is on another planet. If you can't tell the difference --- YOU are out of touch.

    [ Parent ]
    I wasn't aware he needed our votes (none / 0) (#163)
    by nycstray on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:46:04 AM EST
    He sure doesn't act like it.

    [ Parent ]
    the hillary supporters.... (none / 0) (#170)
    by jor on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:48:58 AM EST
    ... on this site, are as adamant as the 25% of the country that continues to support Bush. There is nothing Obama could do to get their support until Hillary concedes. Lets face facts. I'm not going to say this is right or wrong, but its impossible to win over the people here, until hillary herself concedes.

    [ Parent ]
    He's been more concerned about his (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by nycstray on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:14:29 AM EST
    Movement, than actually getting out there and understanding the dem party on a national basis. I recently saw a piece where he was talking about winning the GE and changing the map. Nothing about us though . . .

    I'll be writing Hillary in if need be. That's called voting for a Democrat.

    You have to realize he had many of us in the beginning when it started narrowing, but he's managed to really lose people as time goes on. I originally thought he would be a great VP or if he got the nom, I would vote for him. I want neither now.

    [ Parent ]

    No not even then (none / 0) (#181)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:52:54 AM EST
    We, unlike some supporters of others candidate, do not parrot and mime and blindly follow "the leader." We make up our own minds, based on what we see. We analyze, we criticize, we are honest and can see the flaws in candidates we support.

    And IF Hillary concedes then most of us will still make an independent decision. Some of us MAY vote for Obama, some of us won't.

    But posts like yours, insulting US, will probably only go to increase the numbers that won't. Think about that next time you plan to be condescending, insulting, or get the urge to compare democrats to GW Bush supporters.

    [ Parent ]

    Definitely when Obama concedes (none / 0) (#209)
    by andrys on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:07:47 AM EST
     ... Ever hear of not counting your ...

     I'd say that too many Obama supporters certainly mirror his own arrogance, which is why he is not likely to win in November IF he actually does get the nomination, which is still up in the air -- a reality which makes Obama people say even louder that "it's over" because they believe saying so makes it so, despite an underlying fear they carry that he may not get that nomination unless they can get Clinton out now.

    [ Parent ]

    It is rank arrogance (none / 0) (#178)
    by angie on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:50:49 AM EST
    to tell people they are not Democrats based on your opinion of how they must vote in the GE.  That is the opposite of Democracy.  

    [ Parent ]
    He needs to surround himself with flags (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Trickster on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:20:03 PM EST
    And give a big, eloquent speech in prime-time on the continuing curse of out-of-touch elitism and how we can overcome with in a big rainbow circle of hope.

    Notice how Obama makes you (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by MarkL on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:23:32 PM EST
    embrace his mistakes, in order to support him.
    Today, if you are an Obama supporter,  you must engage in a full-throated defense of (almost) everything Wright has said, because Obama does so.
    Tomorrow, you will have to speak as an expert on small town disillusionment, tsk-ing at the poor people who still cling to their guns and religion to explain.. to explain their frustration??
    How many people have commented that what Obama said doesn't even make any sense?
    "Marybeth, you know what? I think we're poor because I love my guns!". Is that how Obama sees it?

    really? (none / 0) (#49)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:29:34 PM EST
    ""Marybeth, you know what? I think we're poor because I love my guns!". Is that how Obama sees it?"

    so that's your understanding of what Obama said?  

    [ Parent ]

    other way (none / 0) (#94)
    by 1950democrat on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:07:35 AM EST
    Other way around, wasn't it? Because we're poor we cling to our guns to explain our frustration which is really because we're poor but we're too _ to notice that we're poor?


    [ Parent ]
    actually, (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by cpinva on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:31:42 PM EST
    Where does he address, let alone apologize for this comment?

    in an award winning bid for the "a boring constancy is the hobgoblin of little minds." prize, he never does, ever.

    if you go back through all the "bumps" in his campaign thus far, the common thread is his absolute rejection of personal responsibility for any of them.

    he never comes out and says "i screwed up, sorry about that.", or "my staff erred, but i take responsibility, since i am ultimately in charge."

    it's "gosh, no i didn't say that.", or "this is what i actually meant.", or "someone on my staff did that, i'm not responsible."

    sen. obama has laid claim to the mantle of john kennedy's heir apparent. if so, he better damn well start acting like it. pres. kennedy, for all his faults (and they were legion), stepped up to the plate and took responsibility for his administration.

    the "bay of pigs" fiasco is a classic example: he could have, with considerable basis, laid the blame for that failed venture at the feet of pres. eisenhower and cia director john foster dulles, responsible for authorizing and planning it respectively. kennedy did no such thing, he accepted full blame for it, even though he was a less than enthusiastic supporter. as a consequence, both the press and public gave him a bye.

    i just don't see sen. obama doing this. he'd be blaming everyone under the sun, disavowing knowledge of it and placing the responsibility on underlings.

    this is his pattern, it won't stop if he does become the nominee and president.

    Yeah, this is something that's (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by frankly0 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:02:21 AM EST
    bothered me about Obama from the start.

    Everything about him and the way he behaves says that he has an infallibility complex.

    [ Parent ]

    It seems he has mastered the art (none / 0) (#136)
    by felizarte on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:34:41 AM EST
    of plausible deniability.  

    [ Parent ]
    Another example of his infallibility (none / 0) (#207)
    by frankly0 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:06:42 AM EST
    complex was how he handled the foreign policy gaffes he made in the early debates.

    It was as obvious as could be that he had simply goofed, and he even tried to pretend at first that some of his statements just meant something different from what they clearly meant. When that didn't fly, somehow, those very gaffes got turned into a brand spanking new Obama foreign policy, as if he had intended all along to articulate this new approach.

    Of course the MSM saw to it that he garnered nothing but praise for his bold new ideas in foreign policy.

    [ Parent ]

    Lame response (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by stillife on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:33:38 PM EST
    from Obama.  He goes on the attack, deflecting blame  on his opponents.  I know, it's politics.  But wasn't he supposed to be a new kind of politician?  Man up, Barry, and admit when you've made a gaffe.

    And what was that bit he inserted about gay marriage?  Voters are discouraged about the economy so they vote on issues "like gay marriage and take refuge in their faith"?  Way to suck up to the bigots.

    Oh, and the last 25 years?  Nice way to implicate the Clinton Administration.  As usual, the Democrats are equally to blame.  I can't stand the way he panders to Republicans.  

    Meritocracy the new Aristocracy (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:43:02 PM EST
    Elitism.  Gee, never thought that would be our battle.  The class that benefited from all the advantages of the FDR and LBJ era, are now attacking the people they came from .  

    The creative class who are they?  The children of the boomers who were the children of the Gi's who got the GI Bill education, then moved into an FHA house, then got a higher standard of living cause our economy was doing great in the 60's.  All of us the huddled masses now spawned a class that thinks they are better than those that did not get the benefits of the meritocracy.  

    And us, the silly boomer parents, all we did in the 80s and 90s is find ways to retain the merits for the next generation.  And now the little putzes think all the struggles before them were idiotic and so last century.  They diminish the people that did not make it up the merit ladder as gun carrying losers, stuck in some other time and bent on their knees.  

    Yet those who benefit from the spoils of America, do not risk their sons and daughters to the wars or the permanent caste of the under class that is criminalized , medicated and discarded.  

    I guess we are the old ones, we are called now racist and not wanting change.  We are demonized, for what?   These are the people we were waiting for?  Oy vay.  

    Looks like (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Left of center on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:08:09 AM EST
    Hillary will win Pennsylvania,West Virginia,Kentucky and Indiana by even larger margins now.  Thanks Barack

    it doesn't matter... (none / 0) (#101)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:12:18 AM EST
    it's all over... it has been for a while.  it is really just a matter of how far Hillary and her supporters are willing to bring down the party, Obama, and Clinton herself... well, that's my opinion (and the numbers).

    [ Parent ]
    Don't throw that on us too (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:22:41 AM EST
    I believe it was Obama who said that his supporters would not vote for Hillary.  So talk to him first about bringing down the Democratic Party. And if it was all about the Party, he would not have jumped in the fray with his little Senate time. So go and look at the people who encouraged him to run against Hillary. They are the culprits. I truly believe that if he waited and got the experience, he would not be sounding like GW. And then he would make a good President.

    [ Parent ]
    No, Obama is the one (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by waldenpond on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:30:17 AM EST
    bringing down the party.  He is the divisive candidate.  Obama supporters have backed the wrong pony but are so knee deep in it, they want another chance (shovel) to recover from O's latest blunder.  Obama has alienated baby boomers, women, the working class and tossed aside progressive values.  Nobody is bringing down poor little Obama except 'can't stop insulting the nation' Obama.  I'm sorry yet another Obama supporter must wring his hands in despair that so many of us voted for Clinton.  Oh, the tragedy....  I'll be writing Clinton in on my ballot.  Tally that one with your little numbers.

    [ Parent ]
    Sure it doesn't (none / 0) (#125)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:29:20 AM EST
    Because if she is ahead in popular vote when this is done it won't matter. Keep saying that to yourself over and over as PA results come in... ;)

    [ Parent ]
    Do you really think the SDs won't (none / 0) (#134)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:34:19 AM EST
    decide that Obama is too big of a risk in the GE?? He is losing the major states, the ones with the most Electoral votes. And those are what count in the GE. And, FYI, every convention I have watched, since 1960, the "pledged" delegates are only bound until the first ballot. If no one has enough votes to win on the first ballot, and neither of them does, the delegates can then vote for the one they think will actually WIN the GE. And Obama is making one mistake after another. First the stupid purge of his CA delegates, replacing, or trying to replace them, with "loyal" delegates. Then this PA debacle. It wouldn't have been as bad if he hadn't been speaking to a bunch of super-rich people and sneering at Hillary. It was a nasty piece of work, and people will remember it.

    Oh, and don't forget FL. We are still pissed about his stand on the delegates. If the FL delegates get blocked from voting at the convention by Obama, McCain will take FL in a landslide. The prevailing sentiment is that if Obama didn't think our votes worth having in the primary, he can whistle for them in the GE. I do not take that tack myself. I will hold my nose and swallow me stomach and vote for him, IF he is the Dem candidate. But he will get slaughtered in the GE. Completely massacred. The media, aka the GOP smear machine, will have a feast to remember. With Obama as the main course.

    [ Parent ]

    you are kidding, aren't you? (none / 0) (#154)
    by cpinva on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:42:15 AM EST
    it may well be over, but not how you think. i believe sen. obama's run has reached it's end, and he'll be torched in the next few primaries, displaying his complete lack of electability in the GE, for all to see.

    as such, the honorable thing would be for him to quickly cede to sen. clinton, and stop causing the divisiveness he brings to the democratic party.

    shame on him!

    [ Parent ]

    you guys are losing it... (1.00 / 1) (#205)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:04:59 AM EST
    its over guys.  really.  i know you want it so bad but unfortunately its too late.  Didn't take him seriously enough.  complacency is the very worst trait in a leader.  shining like a national guitar...

    superdelegates are SMART - they won't commit suicide for her.  they've said it behind closed doors.  after NC/Indiana, they'll move to Obama quickly.  

    [ Parent ]

    Read definition (none / 0) (#208)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:07:22 AM EST
    Of chattering on this site. You may be violating the terms by repeatedly posting the same thing over and over. There are many site out there where this is actually encouraged if you feel you have a need.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama's run has reached it's end. (none / 0) (#199)
    by Arcadianwind on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 01:01:48 AM EST
    I like the sound of that... I think we've seen it coming for awhile. He's fallen on his own sword; as it should be.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama had poor people in his District (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:19:19 AM EST
    Did he care that they lost their housing?  NO. He did not even notice when the buildings were boarded up and he actually said: affordable housing fails cause of the socio economic conditions.  How out of touch is that?  

    well that was not a very informative post (none / 0) (#115)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:21:03 AM EST
    explain please as not all of us are up to speed on that Stellaaa. thank you.

    [ Parent ]
    TL people are (none / 0) (#122)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:27:46 AM EST
    Here it goes.  Rezko, his buddy, had over 30 affordable housing projects that went into default in Chicago.  11 were in Obama's District.  Rezko, the slumlord, was not paying heat and not maintaining the properties.  Now, his district is not very big.  Many of these projects were projects that were Joint Ventures with the Non Profit Obama represented in his law firm.  Obama, did not attribute any responsibility to Rezko, who drove the buildings to the ground he said the following to the Sun Times:

    Q: Many Rezmar government-financed housing deals have ended up in legal battles, including foreclosure. Several Rezmar buildings are now boarded up, and others are in need of major repairs. Taxpayers have lost millions of dollars on these deals. While Senator Obama has called Mr. Rezko a legal client, campaign contributor and a friend, there's ample evidence that Mr. Rezko was a slum landlord. Was the senator aware then that Mr. Rezko's projects were deeply mired in physical and financial problems? Does the senator think it is fair to characterize Mr. Rezko as a slum landlord?

    A: Housing partnerships in which low-income-housing tax credits are syndicated frequently struggle financially. The reasons for the problems such partnerships struggle are complex but frequently include urban crime, demographic changes and social factors outside the control of any developer or owner. Senator Obama was not otherwise aware of financial and physical problems attributable to misconduct by Mr. Rezko


    SunTimes

    [ Parent ]
    PS. TL people know. (none / 0) (#124)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:29:06 AM EST
    We have researched and discussed these issues.  

    [ Parent ]
    I was just thinking---TL for me is like (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by MarkL on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:32:38 AM EST
    firedoglake was 4 years ago. I hardly go there anymore. I really dislike the current layout, and there are too many writers for my taste.

    [ Parent ]
    The poster should know this (none / 0) (#144)
    by waldenpond on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:37:58 AM EST
    but agreetodisagree just started here yesterday.  I'm sure the poster is aware of all of this data and was being sarcastic and will respond that none of it is relevant.  'Obama has the math, get used to it and get in line' 'Scotus' etc.....

    [ Parent ]
    what exactly are you saying though... (none / 0) (#152)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:41:41 AM EST
    that Obama is what?  

    he didn't attribute blame? is that really what you want to hang your hat on?

    http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_obama_have_a_real_estate_problem.html

    and i like your slap on your on back comment.  solid.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama took money (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:48:15 AM EST
    and made a real estate deal with a guy who was basically back stabbing his community.  Obama did not care to find out what was happening to the low income people.  Obama did not look.  Obama did not have connections in the community to tell him 11 building were in default?  Honey, some of us have worked in the field for years and we don't buy fact check or Obama's word.  The real estate deal he made was crooked but he will get away with it.  Treating his community the way he did, well, that is not something he can get away with.  

    [ Parent ]
    funny thing about that community... (none / 0) (#182)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:52:58 AM EST