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No More Drudgico!

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

Mostly what Atrios said:

I've thought a lot about what Boehlert had to say about concerns about liberal bloggers channeling Drudgico type horsesh[*]t about Hillary Clinton. I think his basic point is important and correct, but he's wrong to make it an Obama/Clinton thing. One can certainly find pro-Clinton bloggers and commenters who do similar. Personally, I've tried to call media bullsh*t on both sides when I see it and as much us possible live by my basic rule of not reinforcing right wing narratives against Democrats. But I don't claim to be perfect or imagine that I always succeed at what I intend to do along those lines.

What Atrios glosses over is NBC. Because MSNBC has been the cable network that has been most fair to Dems generally for the past few years, Left blogs have given it a pass on its blatant sexist and misogynistic anti-Hillary bias. Most will not tell the truth about Keith Olbermann especially - he has become a bad joke. Most will not say that. And that is what Boehlert is talking about.

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    Hear, hear! (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 05:55:38 PM EST


    MSNBC (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by Kensdad on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:12:48 PM EST
    has so pissed me off that i refuse to watch most of their programming.

    joe scarborough (of all people) can be even-handed.  dan abrams is o.k.  and i've been occasionally watching the new david gregory show, but i haven't made up my mind on that one yet.

    the minute chris matthews or KO show their ugly mugs on any of the above programs i immediately change the channel...  and i've pretty much stopped watching their news coverage as well though pat buchanan (of all people) can be even-handed...  gee, is anyone noticing a pattern?  the republicans are fair to hillary!  now that's ironic...  especially with what rendell said about fox news (but i'll have to take his word for it since i stopped watching them yrs ago...

    these days i'm pretty much stuck with CNN which has its ups and downs.

    what a sorry state of journalism!

    Olberman Is A Hack (5.00 / 10) (#10)
    by flashman on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:15:46 PM EST
    There are striking similarities between Barak Obama, the apple of Keith Olberman's eye, and Olberman himself.  Obama carries his self with such an air of invincibility that I half expected to see him light up a Lucky Strike during one of the station breaks of the last debate, just to prove that nothing can touch him.  Olberman has become so convinced that he himself is the darling of the media, as well as the arbiter of truth, that he no longer has to maintain journalistic integrity and objectivity.  In what have become the most disgraceful exhibits of bias and news spin, Olberman transformed from quality newsman to gushing political hack and Cheerleader in Chief for Obama's candidacy.  He devotes the first quarter-hour of each of his "newscasts" to spinning every comment from Clinton's campaign, no matter how insignificant or minute the comment may be, into a falsely perceived obfuscation that exists only in his vindictive mind, while simultaneously exculpating Obama from every criticism.  How can this man continue to call himself a newsman?

    I used to be a big fan of "Countdown" back when the Olberman would take on the right-wing thugs and liars.  Now, Olberman himself is a contestant in the race to the bottom.  I guess there are enough Hillary haters left to keep his program afloat, but he will never be the same courageous truth teller that he once was, in my eyes.


    My feelings exactly on KO (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Kensdad on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:53:42 PM EST
    i couldn't agree with you more about having liked olbermann when he stuck to exposing the real thugs...  i'll never watch him again regardless of how this election turns out.  same with "hardball"...  i used to watch both daily.

    Parent
    I have largely stopped watching (5.00 / 4) (#62)
    by Dave B on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:53:52 PM EST
    Regarding Olbermann, I am so dissappointed.  The impression I get is that he believes that he owes his recent success to Daily Kos readers, and he is pandering to them.  If you watch DK, and then turn on Olbermann, it is obvious that he's taking all his cues from the site.  I'm convinced that he's doing his research there and parroting what they say on his show.

    He's lost me, and he'll sadly never have a chance of winning me back.  Rather than fairness to Democrats, he had decided to peg his future on the Obama/Kos segment of the Democratic party.  Maybe he's right, but it seems to me that honesty is more important than ratings.  I hope that I've misjudged him.

    Parent

    He's gone... (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by DudeE on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:58:59 PM EST
    ...into the Dennis Miller column.  A guy who used to be entertaining but, somewhere along the line, became so ideological and mean-spirited that he just got a bit scary...

    Parent
    Yeah what the hell happend to Dennis Miller (none / 0) (#164)
    by voterin2008 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 03:19:34 AM EST
    I used to love him and now my opinion is that he souled out.  Really disappointing!

    Parent
    I'm sorry, but I just think this an overreaction. (none / 0) (#65)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:58:32 PM EST
    Would you be satisfied if he directed his vitriol towards Obama? That would be as detrimental.

    Parent
    I think it was clear... (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by DudeE on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:03:47 PM EST
    ...when poster mentioned 'rather than be fair to Democrats...'

    What you're doing is called 'begging the question'

    Parent

    Fair enough, I guess my point is that this idea (none / 0) (#74)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:06:44 PM EST
    of equity is determined by our own biases. If we are pro-clinton, our sense of fairness differs greatly from the same if we are pro-obama. I favor obama, but in the GE I am voting democrat irregardless of who emerges

    Parent
    Seems pretty objective... (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by DudeE on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:11:36 PM EST
    ...by any standard that Olbermann has focused the vast majority of his energy into attacking Clinton.  When he does a 20 minute "Special Comment" attacking Clinton for someone else's statement (Ferraro), it's pretty tough to argue he isn't showing bias.

    Parent
    I would also be offended (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by Dave B on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:23:12 PM EST
    If he went on 20 minute tirade against Obama, with anger intense enough to make his lower lip quiver, yes I would also be offended.  The special comment was what pushed me over the edge.  I had started watching Olbermann back when he first appeared on the scene.  I had high hopes for him, but alas, all hope is lost.

    I was originally an Edwards supporter.  When he dropped out I was having a difficult time trying to decide which way to go.  First it was health care that swayed me toward Clinton.  I recently lost my 49 year old brother who essentially died because of a lack of health insurance.  Then Obama playing the race card sealed the deal.

    Parent

    yeah, on that I completely agree, Olbermann (none / 0) (#85)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:15:23 PM EST
    is not objective as far as it regards the democratic contest. Is there someone out there in the MSM who you do consider objective? It seems everyone is entrenched on one side or the other

    Parent
    Onus is on you; Find a pro-HRC shill as bad (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by Ellie on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:35:02 PM EST
    ... as Obamann is in the tank for Obama.

    Wandering through the thread asking people to do your homework doesn't constitute an argument. It merely fogs the environment.

    Obamann, and NBC generally, are in the tank for Obama. It's baldly evident. The anti HRC bias is baldly evident.

    It doesn't "logically" follow that, like, So?, other networks are prolly for HRC and could you, like, show me.

    Please.

    Parent

    I was genuinely inquiring. I was not arguing. (none / 0) (#134)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:22:12 PM EST
    relax

    Parent
    I find... (none / 0) (#91)
    by DudeE on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:21:28 PM EST
    ...Stephanopoulos generally avoids any overt bias.  Likewise, Tom Brokaw.  They're out there.  Tweety tends to host the usual suspects - Andrea Mitchell, the editorial lady from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, etc.  All he has to do is say "Clinton" and his entire panel is rolling their eyes...

    Parent
    I saw (none / 0) (#155)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:23:16 AM EST
    Brian Williams on Letterman a few nights ago and had to leave the room before I threw something through the screen.  He had barely sat down when he launched into a diatribe demanding that Hillary quit the race.  He repeated Obama talking points like a stuck record. I didn't see the rest of his segment the first couple of minutes was too much.

    I can't imagine Walter Cronkite doing anything like that.

    Network news anchors once had a certain dignity, they were seldom seen in an entertainment venue.

    We've succeeded in cheapening everything.

    Parent

    Who other than Joe Scarborough and (none / 0) (#98)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:25:42 PM EST
    ..other Republicans are particularly fair or biased towards Hillary Clinton. I'm just asking cause I've missed them.

    Parent
    I would prefer...personally... (none / 0) (#153)
    by kredwyn on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:35:54 AM EST
    that his show cover the news and information without  engaging in spin doctoring himself.

    He is not a campaign operative. That's not his job.

    Parent

    nope you are right (none / 0) (#183)
    by coigue on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 06:47:03 PM EST
    there is an exact synergy.

    I've watched quite a few times where a story popped up on dKos, then was reported later on KO and nowhere else.

    Parent

    plus his suits are too shiny. (none / 0) (#182)
    by coigue on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 06:45:32 PM EST
    Pat Buchanan is delusional, check out his website. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:17:11 PM EST
    He's charming as long as you don't actually explore his opinions. His notions concerning African American heritage are unhinged.


    Agreed (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by nell on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:25:01 PM EST
    But he has been fair to both Hillary and Obama in his political commentary...he can have political insight apart from his personal political views. That is what reporters and pundits are SUPPOSED to do!

    Parent
    I would be hesitant to attribute his compliments (none / 0) (#38)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:36:20 PM EST
    of Hilary to impersonal motives. The man is possessed of true prejudices (once again, visit his website). Simply because he may be less favorably inclined to Obama does not make him objective, that is a poor measure. In the end, who in the media truly is objective? Jim Lehrer, Charlie Rose?


    Parent
    What he said a couple of weeks ago (none / 0) (#81)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:11:47 PM EST
    rang pretty sincerely.

    He said (on Laughlin... a paraphrase), she has been through some crap, and I respect her for how well she has handled it.

    Parent

    I've never found him charming... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:31:07 PM EST
    If he says things that I don't disagree with I chalk it up to either ulterior motives or a fluke.

    Parent
    I am relieved (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by bjorn on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:17:56 PM EST
    that at least some others think he is kind of joke too.  I went back and forth during the early primaries, but finally stopped watching about a 6 weeks ago and have not watched it since.  I used to tivo the show and watch it every night. He is pompous, biased, and embarassing to watch.  I guess he has become the "lunatic fringe" for the left IMO.  

    But what about Kos, Open Left, Ezra Klein, (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by dk on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:21:28 PM EST
    etc. etc. (in other words, the "A-list" bloggers.  BTD, you yourself have said that that the depiction of Hillary on much of the left blogosphere is, for the most part at least, absurd.

    Duncan, I'm afraid to say, sounds downright Broderistic here.  I'm not going to sit here and say that there aren't some Clinton bloggers and commenters who play dirty, but when you look at the collective shamefulness of the Obama side, and the sheer numbers of them, you can't realistically equate the effect that the smears have.

    Are we really just talking about NBC?  I don't watch tv news or cable news, but I certainly see a lot of silliness about Hillary on the A-list left blogs.

    I don't watch TV or cable news either, (none / 0) (#22)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:24:31 PM EST
    except on primary/caucus nights for the results.  It is amazing to me how much time is devoted here to repeatedly pointing out how biased certain news outlets are and how everyone has stopped watching them, but really hasn't. No wonder print newspapers are on their last legs.

    Parent
    Bloggers and MSM (none / 0) (#31)
    by ChiTownDenny on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:33:14 PM EST
    Apples and Oranges, IMO.

    Parent
    I might have agreed with (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by dk on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:35:08 PM EST
    you a year ago.

    Parent
    Atrios doesn't have clean hands (none / 0) (#139)
    by Alvord on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:50:52 PM EST
    In his own low key manner, Atrios usually finds a way to interpret a situation to Obama's advantage or to find fault with Hillary Clinton. The fact is Hillary Clinton gets worse treatment from the media, and the blogs, than does Barack Obama. By minimizing this fact Atrios is once again putting his thumb on the scale to favor Obama.

    Parent
    Indeed. (none / 0) (#143)
    by DawnG on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:34:18 PM EST
    I can't help but wonder what the world was like before we went around judging each other on the "Obama or Clinton" scale.  I can barely remember a time before EVERYONE had a bias (even if only one person saw it) and would be scorned and shunned by members of the opposite bias.

    It's been so long...

    I feel like I'm trapped in the Lord of the Flies and I'm just tired of it.

    Parent

    amen (none / 0) (#148)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:46:53 PM EST
    Oh hai... (none / 0) (#154)
    by kredwyn on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:41:36 AM EST
    have missed you <hug>.

    Please return to the discussion already in progress.

    Parent

    Oh my GOD! (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by DawnG on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 04:57:17 PM EST
    How adorable!  How you doing?  I'm branching out.

    Parent
    Am pretty good... (none / 0) (#184)
    by kredwyn on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 08:59:54 PM EST
    Have been in the midst of the lots of work...and needed to branch out also.

    Parent
    "Lord of the Flies" comment is spot on (none / 0) (#169)
    by abfabdem on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 08:08:40 AM EST
    I finally left DKOS due to the high level of vitriol and sexism.  It seemed to me it had become a boys club along the lines of Lord of the Flies!!  How interesting to see someone else come to the same conclusion!

    Parent
    i also think (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by Turkana on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:24:24 PM EST
    atrios misses one of boehlert's points: that the horseguano is disproportionately directed at clinton.

    I agree Turkana (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:35:57 AM EST
    I really don't know why he beggared in that manner unless he's read comments from his own readers and determined a majority (the nastiest) to be Obama backers. I detect a slight Obama slant from him but I may just be over sensitive.

    Parent
    OT but can anyone speculate about (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by RalphB on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:34:22 PM EST
    what the heck's going on with people at Chelsea Clinton's campaign appearances asking questions about Monica Lewinski?

    Is this some kind of planned BS or are these kids just incredibly rude and sick?  I ask because it's happened at her last two appearances.


    Since Wolf Blitzer had a day off..... (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:45:08 PM EST
    The Situation Room went crazy over this today. Carol Costello did a snarky commentary about Chelsea's unwise responses and how it was going to cost her mother votes with the young crowd. Then they had interivews with some college students who were basically Clinton haters and thought Chelsea should answer the questions and also John King and David Broder and Cafferty, of course, weighed in to say that Chelsea basically got what she deserved because she won't talk to the media and she has not right to say "none of your business" because basically her dad's infidelity is our business because it was done in the White House. All this crap all over again.

    They tried to pull this earlier in the week but Wolf kept saying, "I like Chelsea and I think her answer was just fine." So I guess since he was off today, they took the opportunity to get all the Chelsea hate off their chests. She is now a fully grown member of the Clinton family. Poor thing.

    Parent

    Chelsea seems (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by ChiTownDenny on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:48:51 PM EST
    amazingly poised, tough, and smart.

    Parent
    Magnificent young woman in every respect! (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by RalphB on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:55:01 PM EST
    Bill and Hillary raised a wonderful person.

    Parent
    What Bill Clinton did (none / 0) (#67)
    by themomcat on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:00:44 PM EST
    in the White House is our business. However that incident effected Sen. Clinton, his wife, is private and has nothing what so ever to do with Sen. Clinton's candidacy. "None of your business" might not be the best response but I give her credit for going out there and campaigning for her mother.
    Maybe she should say, "That question has no relevancy to my other's campaign. Do you have something else you would like to ask?

    Parent
    I strongly disagree (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by reality based on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:09:56 PM EST
    I am not interested in probing into the sexual activities of the inhabitants of the White House.  To sate my prurient interests, I'll rent a movie or go to a fundamentalist church and listen to the confessions of my fellow sinners.

    Parent
    And I agree (none / 0) (#96)
    by themomcat on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:24:16 PM EST
    but until he got caught and lied about it, it was none of our business. It was foolish and embarrassing for everyone. And considering all the illegal activities that have gone on since Bill Clinton left the White House, it was petty. To continue to use the incident as fodder in this election is beneath dignity and those questions should be ignored.

    Parent
    so it is justified to ask his daughter????? (none / 0) (#70)
    by ChiTownDenny on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:03:48 PM EST
    No, it is not. N/T (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by themomcat on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:06:01 PM EST
    Agreed. (none / 0) (#77)
    by ChiTownDenny on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:10:33 PM EST
    uck (none / 0) (#142)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:11:54 PM EST
    As somerby might say, they are rubbing their thighs over the opportunity to talk about this.

    Parent
    Damn right (none / 0) (#150)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:02:35 AM EST
    As far as I'm concerned, NO ONE under any circumstances, in any context, political or otherwise, should be asked about the sexual behavior or misbehavior of their parents, for God's sake.  It's unspeakable.

    Parent
    Incredibly rude and sick (none / 0) (#39)
    by goldberry on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:36:27 PM EST
    They are trying to goad her into losing it and they are keeping it fresh in everyone's minds.  She's handling it ok.  Don't worry about her.  This will backfire.

    Parent
    I'm not worried about Chelsea (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by RalphB on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:51:51 PM EST
    she seems to be handling it just fine.  I think "none of your business" is a perfectly reasonable answer but the so-called journalists seem to think she should provide some kind of answer.  What a bunch of cretins.  They continially piss me off further, when I don't think they can be worse!


    Parent
    Overly enthusiastic Obama (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:38:56 PM EST
    supporters?

    Parent
    Backfiring... (none / 0) (#83)
    by anniethena on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:12:36 PM EST
    CNN's situation room visited this several times, including Jack Cafferty's first "here's the question" segment.
    The pundits were asking if Chelsea's "none of your business" statements would backfire on Chelsea. While they admitted some sympathy for her getting these questions in the first place, in their opinion she's going to have to answer it at some point.
    I think it's extremely rude for anyone to direct questions to Chelsea about this matter. And I suspect the questioners know it's a low blow too.

    Parent
    I'd wager at least (none / 0) (#157)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:38:25 AM EST
    some are Obama supporters.

    Parent
    Whaaa? (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by QuakerInABasement on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:43:10 PM EST
    "Because MSNBC has been the cable network that has been most fair to Dems generally..."

    Whaaaa?

    Doesn't anyone here remember 1999 and 2000 with Williams and Matthews working out their personal issues at Al Gore's expense? Rembember Gennifer Flowers being invited on to roll out insane conspiracy theories about the Clintons? Remember the uncritical reporting of the Swift Boat nonsense? The castration jokes bandied about by Tucker Carlson? The unceasing coverage of Clinton pardon "scandals"? Matthews projection of his own gender issues as he slimes Hillary Clinton?

    If this is "the most fair" network, get used to having a Republican president.

    Primarily the main reason they were fair to Bill (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:46:57 PM EST
    during the impeachment is because of Geraldo Rivera.

    Parent
    They all work for GE (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by reality based on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:47:01 PM EST
    I don't think we live in the golden age of TV journalism any more.  GE runs MSNBC in its own perceived interest.  Matthews and Russert sold out.  We all know the story of Welch, Russert and the Bush button under his lapel, don't we? GE News realized the center left market was available and they snapped it up with Olbermann.  It became even more important when Bush Republicanism began its decline. They can now use him to try to manipulate the Democrats.  When they can decide who they feel more comfortable with in the general election they'll move the coverage and commentary in that direction. When GE wants they'll rein Joe in. It's not news, it's propaganda. Don't fall for it.

    I watch CBS (none / 0) (#88)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:18:41 PM EST
    and amazingly enough, I think they run pretty fair.

    Not everyone has forgotten what journalism is.


    Parent

    I guarantee (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:04:17 PM EST
    that those who still think Olbermann is okay because he shills for THEIR candidate will someday find themselves on the wrong side of his opinion and be as peeved at him as I am.

    I'll never watch his show again.

    I can't help but ask... (none / 0) (#146)
    by DawnG on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:43:21 PM EST
    ...do you only think that because he's not shilling for YOUR candidate?  Do you honestly think you'd be as disgusted by him if he was noticably pro-Clinton?

    What's most unfortunate about any bias (real or perceived) is that it's only good when you share that bias and only bad when you don't.

    The truth is that a bias in and of itself is neither good nor bad.  Like anything else in this world, it's what you do with it that matters.

    Parent

    Bias is always bad. (none / 0) (#160)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:24:10 AM EST
    I don't think I ever said it wasn't.  I only said that people who DEFEND him will someday get burned by him.

    He's a shill.  Someday you won't like what he's shilling.

    Parent

    That Sounds Nice & Reasonable (none / 0) (#170)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:05:58 AM EST
    The truth is that a bias in and of itself is neither good nor bad.  Like anything else in this world, it's what you do with it that matters.

    So is it all right that many of us don't like what he's done with his bias? Or that many of us don't think that a "news" program should be so blatantly biased?

    I stopped watching Olbermann long before he became a part of the Obama campaign staff.

    Look, I enjoyed a good Bush bashing as much as the next gal, but after it was all done you had to ask yourself what it was. And what it was was one man's opinion. If you respected his opinion then probably you were fine with his rant. I didn't so I wasn't.

    My questions are, other than the fact that he attacked Bush regularly wasn't his show pretty boring? Wasn't it sort of sophomoric? Wasn't it really second rate? If you didn't think so then and don't think so now, fine. I thought so then and wouldn't know about now cause I wouldn't waste my time watching. And as for Cafferty? Don't even get me started on that pin-headed old Pundidiot!

    Parent

    that is certainly fine. (none / 0) (#179)
    by DawnG on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 05:09:32 PM EST
    But, it's disingenuous to claim that you dislike someone because of they have a bias, when in fact you probably dislike them because their bias doesn't match yours.

    Olbermann has a rather blatant left-leaning bias.  And that was always okay with most becuase he was bashing republicans.  But now that he's perceived to have an Obama bias, people who are for Clinton don't like him.

    I'm on the fence about him myself.  He has moments of startling brilliance surrounded by silliness and snideness.  It's like there's a part of him that is a principaled journalist in the tradition of Edward R Murrow and there's a part of him that's still a sports caster cracking jokes with a bunch of (at least the political equivilant) jocks.

    I can appreciate him for the brilliant moments.  

    That being said, I don't really watch him becuase he's on when I work.  So all I usually see of him is when someone points out and posts footage of his brilliant moments.

    Parent

    Atrios Closet Obama Fan (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by pluege on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:10:35 PM EST
    as good as Atrios is, he too has an Obama bias clearly detectable if you read him enough. But admittedly, it takes considerable Atrios reading to detect it - he's subtle, such as the cited post.

    He's allowed to have an opinion. (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:21:15 PM EST
    He appears to favor slightly Sen. Obama, but he is allowed to have a favorite. I think he comes off pretty even-handed, especially when compared to other bloggers.

    I don't think it counts as bias unless it skews your reading of facts. If he's hiding it well enough that you have to read a lot of him to detect it, I think that's good. There's no missing the bias of Olbermann. Whole different story there.

    Parent

    agree, it may be too much to ask impartiality. (none / 0) (#100)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:27:43 PM EST
    However, even as an Obama supporter, and though I typically enjoy Olbermann, he is, as it regards the democratic contest, essentially a spinner for Obama, the equivalent of Lanny Davis for the other side (someone whom I truly detest)

    Parent
    But Lanny doesn't have his own show (none / 0) (#161)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:25:07 AM EST
    does he?

    Parent
    Yeah but as a Obama supporter I must say (none / 0) (#165)
    by voterin2008 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 03:28:05 AM EST
    Lanny is really really good.  If Obama does manage to win I look forward to seeing Lanny debating the other side.  Heck even if Obama doesn't win I look forward to seing Lanny take on the other side.

    Parent
    Agreed (none / 0) (#133)
    by pluege on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:16:55 PM EST
    "If he's hiding it well enough that you have to read a lot of him to detect it, I think that's good"

    Atrios rocks!

    Parent

    It's Not Just (none / 0) (#158)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:49:45 AM EST
    skewing facts. It's also what's included and what's excluded.

    Although not a blog, Buzzflash has shown incredible over the hill bias both with their editorials and with the articles they include and exclude and the articles they put in prominent positions on the page.

    They frequently link to Krugman columns but when Krugman writes either critically of Obama or in praise of Hillary, Buzzflash omits a link to his column, like it never existed.  I've been checking over the last couple of weeks.

    Parent

    Yup. (none / 0) (#92)
    by ChiTownDenny on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:22:32 PM EST
    But we're all adults.  We can respect a diversity of opinions.  But the line is crossed at many other blogs with the insidious, derogatory, name-calling attacks.  

    Parent
    Olberman Is A Hack (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by BlueDemocrat on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:24:08 PM EST
    Helo,
    My first post and I'd like to use it to compliment
    flashman for a critique which was well said.

    "He devotes the first quarter-hour of each of his "newscasts" to spinning every comment from Clinton's campaign, no matter how insignificant or minute the comment may be, into a falsely perceived obfuscation that exists only in his vindictive mind, while simultaneously exculpating Obama from every criticism.  How can this man continue to call himself a newsman?"

    He never was a newsman, just a commentator posing as one. An incomparable dick is how I prefer to think of him.
    Anyway, tonight he's 21 minutes in and just getting warmed up on his Hill-bashing.
    They have some kind of evil Simpsons character now
    supposedly as Richard Melon Scaithe supered over a photo of Hill from the Pittsburgh Trib interview.

    This may be the most disgraceful political content that's ever aired on national television in this country.

    Scaiffe is repulsive however, even though your (none / 0) (#101)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:29:36 PM EST
    point on Olbermann may stand

    Parent
    Honestly (4.66 / 3) (#106)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:34:41 PM EST
    I think the problem is caring what the media thinks about your candidate, period.  Rendell was right - Fox hates both our candidates equally.  ABC is still obsessed with some old bodily fluids, and NBC is obviously, from Matt Lauer in the morning til Olbermann screaming at night, intent on painting Hillary as the shrill harpy you never knew New York elected.  They ALL SUCK.  They get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to say what we say on their unpaid lunch breaks.  Why "grassroots activists" go batcrap crazy over the big media makes no sense to me.  Care about local markets, if you're going to care at all.

    Factoring in the media's current story on your candidate might be practical, but it doesn't sit well or make sense in the long term to me.  Your candidate is closer to the media than you.  I understand why BTD cares about the media darling status but there is certainly need for a media f-u coup.

    We're faced with the conundrum of a candidate who is winning based on the media, and a lot of grassroots support.  Who do you think he's going to sell out first if he hasn't sold out someone already?  

    "Got big big bodies, got great big heads..."

    Screw 'em all.  Esp if your intent is to be some sort of 'progressive.'  McCain shows how fostering media love comes from being duplicitious.  Just what I want to encourage in a candidate!  And now that the blogs have apparently allied themselves with the big media, what are the other alternatives?  Reboot Media 2.0?  Clinton still succeeding is a sign that people don't watch as much cable news at night as you think they do.  Then again, maybe it's a sign that they DO - NH.  I don't know how much of their TV time people are willing to devote to TV news.  Perhaps there is some way we can con the news channels into being so annoying, so untruthful, that they become entirely irrelevant.  

    There is a real need for alternate media.  Perhaps that is why BTD focuses on broken credibility.  It's over for TPM, Kos, OpenLeft...news sources have become feeding troughs, and anyone who comes back to them after all this is going to have the same dumb optimism we do when we listen to sources like NBC.  

    But maybe the blogs were just a media fight anyway.  The amount of loathing that comes from the sources I just listed for the average person, the person that they simply have a hard time measuring, is sickening.  These people, it being a democracy, after all this country, do matter.  They are the deciders.  They don't, and won't care about you, if you keep acting this way.

    The Huffington Post?  What average joe wants to listen to a fake newspaper?  Esp one that is more ridiculous than Olbermann???

    I care (none / 0) (#162)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:25:57 AM EST
    because these people sway opinion.  That's the only reason I care.

    They can think whatever they want.

    Parent

    One viewer's analysis: (4.00 / 1) (#4)
    by mattt on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:10:26 PM EST
    Olbermann and MSNBC have been favoring the Dem frontrunner, who happens to be Obama.  Clinton is trying to tear down the Dem frontrunner, and therefore they don't like her.

    Matthews does have a unique problem with Hillary, and likely with women in general, and the left blogs have been pretty tough on him for that.

    The Media Matters (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Fabian on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:13:57 PM EST
    on Matthews was probably the last good thing to come out the blogs this election.  The last good discussion on sexism I had on dk, too.  

    Parent
    The fallacy... (5.00 / 6) (#44)
    by DudeE on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:38:04 PM EST
    ...is that there's something inherently wrong with trying to win the nomination.  Of course Clinton is pointing out Obama's shortcomings and, by contrast, her strengths.  Obama does likewise.  I never heard a peep from Olbermann and crew when Clinton had 20 point national poll margins and Obama was taking shots at her.

    Interesting argument, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

    Parent

    Actually, when Clinton had a 20 point lead (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by esmense on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:51:41 PM EST
    ...there were lots of "peeps" from the media -- urging Obama to go  after her.

    Parent
    Taking shots at her? (none / 0) (#89)
    by mattt on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:19:50 PM EST
    When did Obama say that the GOP nominee would make a better president than Clinton?  That's what Hillary said with her line about some mythical "commander in chief test."

    I've heard Obama say several times, both early on and up through the last debate, that Hillary would make a fine president.

    Parent

    His campaign has been based on calling her (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by MarkL on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:31:28 PM EST
    a pathological liar, and worse. Where have you been?

    Parent
    Yeah, his campaign has pushed that meme, yet, and (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:33:40 PM EST
    I admit this may be parsing it too much, but he has not, as far as I can recall, said as much himself

    Parent
    Yes, that's parsing it too much. (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by MarkL on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:34:45 PM EST
    WAY too much.

    Parent
    Since when (none / 0) (#108)
    by mattt on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:34:58 PM EST
    did that disqualify anyone from office?  LOL

    A bit more seriously, I think you're conflating Obama's statements with his supporters'.

    Parent

    his official campaign speaks for him, and (none / 0) (#111)
    by MarkL on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:38:25 PM EST
    it's position is that Hillary is a liar, a monster, etc.

    Parent
    The liar comment or as they would say (none / 0) (#166)
    by voterin2008 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 03:40:37 AM EST
    inconsistant statement has been prooven more by the Clinton campaign then Obama.  The monster comment was dealt with in the only manner you can when someone makes a statement you don't approve.  Thats not an attack its an emotional supporter who went to far.  This has been a mild campaign both candidates are as guilty as the other and anyone who wants to argue that Obama's attacks have been more vicious that doesn't have a vested interest in Clinton I would love to hear their arguement. If you do have a vested interest we could play tit for tat but I'll just say you win it's a silly game to play and I will not sway you nor will you sway me.  

    I still don't understand why Clinton gets a week of coverage for "misspeaking on bosnia"  I understand the ongoing coverage of Rev Wright but it seems unfair.  In comparison to McCain who "misspoke" several times on Iran being connected to Al Quaida which has a thousand times more impact on issues that are more important.  Clinton is running on experience ok she was in Bosnia, she was meeting with leaders in the world so the experience check, she has got it.  McCain runs on Foreign policy experience he's in a country where a we are in a war based on false intelligence and inaccurate information and what does he do.  Tells us Iran is supporting Al Quaeda call it a "senior moment", "misspeaking" or just a good old fashion lie.  Doesn't this speak to the foundation of his credibility.  Remember this wasn't a one time event he repeated it three times!

    Sorry for the rant,

    Parent

    You seem... (none / 0) (#113)
    by DudeE on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:40:52 PM EST
    ...to lack any sense of consistent principles in your argumentation.  It's not a disqualifier to call a candidate untruthful but lordy jeebus you need to be run out of town on a rail if you suggest your opponent can't pass the C in C test?

    Wow.

    Parent

    how about both positions are false? (none / 0) (#129)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:55:07 PM EST
    Well, thank you! (none / 0) (#176)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:21:59 PM EST
    What's so incredibly galling is the Obama campaign's pretense that it is super-virtuous and above politics and all about "unity."  It's not.

    And you might want to ponder what the point is of Obama's claim to the presidency if he's just another politician after all.

    Parent

    Correction (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by Davidson on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:38:20 PM EST
    Clinton challenged Obama to prove his C-in-C qualifications.  She said both McCain and herself had passed and now it was up to Obama who so far had only pointed to a speech.

    Obama has taken several deeply personal shots at Clinton himself (including his staff wish invoke the most sordid of right-wing attacks on her and her family) and is not above citing Drudge to accuse her of being a damn racist (after he stated that he didn't believe she was behind it) when it was the Free Republic that released that benign photo of him in African garb.

    Being repeatedly and falsely accused of being a racist is one hell of charge and his camp (including Obama himself) have done it with ease.  So forgive me if I'm not as outraged by you when Clinton simply calls him to prove himself and doesn't campaign on his behalf (which apparently provokes disgust amongst some).

    Parent

    Where have you been? (none / 0) (#112)
    by DudeE on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:39:06 PM EST
    Living in the Obama bubble for the last 6 months?  You really can't be serious:

    "You need a candidate who will tell you the truth"

    "If you start off with half the country not wanting to vote for you, you don't have a lot of margin for error"

    "I don't want Bush-Cheney light"

    Parent

    Nonsense (none / 0) (#75)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:09:47 PM EST
    there ways of pundits focusing on the campaign without favoring one candidate over the other.

    Sigh. I miss real news and commentary.

    Parent

    Baloney! (none / 0) (#171)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:10:36 AM EST
    They were attacking her when she was the front-runner. No excuses for the Obama Cable Network formerly known as MSNBC.

    Parent
    Keith Olbermann (none / 0) (#2)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:00:26 PM EST
    appeared to originally be pro-Hillary.  He was not impressed when Obama won Iowa, and was happy he was vindicated when Hillary won New Hampshire.

    Sometime after New Hampshire, he tilted toward Obama....Bill had taken on a greater role, and then there was South Carolina.

     

    I thnk he originally appreared fair which to (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Teresa on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:03:08 PM EST
    Obama supporters means pro-Clinton. I never thought he was for her. Then he just lost it.

    Parent
    I'm not sure I should be proud (5.00 / 7) (#6)
    by Fabian on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:11:19 PM EST
    But I've never listened/read a single KO Special Comment about Hillary or Obama.  I did catch a few where he went after GWB - and there are oh-so-many reasons to criticize GWB, that I never thought he was being unfair.  But when KO went after Hillary, my first thought was "What has she done to you?  For that matter, what has she done to any of us?.

    That's what struck me as truly off target.  Sure the media has given GWB more slack than any president deserves, but Hillary Clinton?  I remember no deference given to her.  

    Maybe it makes the advertisers happy?  I don't know.

    Parent

    Yes, I am always completely baffled (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:17:31 PM EST
    at where this hatred and contempt comes from.  Especially since now we see that so much of the "Clinton racism" was manufactured by the Obama people.

    Parent
    I have the same question re Eliz. (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:20:26 PM EST
    Edwards, who is reported by unnamed sources to strongly dislike Hillary Clinton.  Is it the "stood by her man" thing?  

    Parent
    I have a liberal friend who (none / 0) (#26)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:27:57 PM EST
    was for Edwards (now Obama) who hates Hillary/Bill because of the Monica thing. "I don't trust them" she says.  She is a smart woman, but there is something there about that infidelity that clouds all reason about how our country improved under BC.  But surely these blow dried guys (who may indeed have been unfaithful somewhere along the line) are not all caught up in that?

    Parent
    My daughter brought that up to me.... (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:33:46 PM EST
    ...as a reason to not like Hillary...the fact that she stayed with Bill. I asked her what she would think if someday Jennifer Aniston took Brad Pitt back and she said that would be different. LOL.

    Parent
    Ha. (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:36:38 PM EST
    I work with a "smart" woman (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by stillife on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:37:54 PM EST
    who knows way more than me about the stock market, but she's a solid Republican, voting for McCain.  I was rather horrified to learn that her 16 year old daughter is a McCain supporter (my own 18 year old daughter loves Kucinich).  If you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart, as the saying goes.

    I feel like a lot of the folks who hate or distrust the Clintons b/c of Monica or Whitewater are either too young to have actually experienced the 90's as adults, or are former Republicans.  And that goes for a lot of Big Bloggers.


    Parent

    KOS (none / 0) (#159)
    by cal1942 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:13:16 AM EST
    is a former Republican who supports 'free' trade.  He may not admit to the free trade thing now but I read it in one of his posts a year or two back.

    Parent
    My solidly Republican friends (none / 0) (#175)
    by hairspray on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 11:59:19 AM EST
    have a different attitude about "personal responsibility".  Many have not had hard knocks, nor experience with people who have had them. They cannot conceive that bad circumstances are anything more than bad choices.  Many are of course. But bad choices often come from bad circumstances.  It is system thinking versus linear thinking.

    Parent
    I find it bizarre... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by DudeE on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:44:29 PM EST
    ...that some portion of the population still hasn't grown up to understand that infidelity is part and parcel of holding political office.  Hell, McCain was having an affair with Cindy while he was still married yet nobody is calling him untrustworthy and he was the one actually having the affair

    Parent
    try to get anyone talking about this... (none / 0) (#123)
    by white n az on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:15:14 PM EST
    His ex-wife won't
    The media won't
    Cindy won't
    Obviously John won't

    Parent
    I wonder how much (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:21:35 PM EST
    of Olbermann's blatantly anti-Hillary stuff is to keep the love coming from the blog denizens, DK in particular.

    Once KO discovered lefty blogs, he was clearly reading them regularly.  He adopted a fair amount of lefty blog terminology on air ("the intertubes," "reality-based community" and the like) and following up stories about the Bush admin. that only the blogs thought were important.  I think he was the first MSM type to pay any attention at all to the stuff Josh was uncovering on U.S. attorneys, wasn't he?  And then he started posting occasionally to DK, to rapturous applause.

    So I think the anti-Hillary tack possibly just reflects what he reads on the blogs and is, essentially, quite deliberately pandering to his biggest fan base.

    Parent

    Or Maybe (none / 0) (#23)
    by flashman on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:24:46 PM EST
    he just decided to let DK do his thinking for him.

    Parent
    To be honest (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by spit on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:36:48 PM EST
    part of why I usually don't comment much on Olbermann is that I've never particularly watched him. I'm one of those boring people who is frankly a little disturbed by the trend toward infotainment, and that's very much what his show is. That was true when he was going after the right, too, except that it was easier to agree with the point of view he was presenting, and there was so much other slant toward the Bush admin for a long time that it maybe seemed refreshing.

    I accept that news comes from a point of view -- somebody has to make editorial decisions, and all too often it even goes way beyond that -- but I have serious problems with the idea that we can simply counter the conservative infotainment in the media with lefty infotainment of our own.

    I suppose it serves a purpose for those who can't stand dry reporting. But I don't like Pravda for the left any better than I like it for the right, honestly. I'll take the dry stuff anyday over the flashy tabloid crap that pretends it's news in this country.

    Copper coinage. Other mileage will, no doubt, vary widely. And I don't like my drinks sweetened, either. :P

    Parent

    Schuster (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:10:56 PM EST
    I think they all got mad when Schuster got called on the carpet for the pimp remark, Hillary complained and Schuster was suspended for a little. Up until then Schuster was a up and coming ready for his own show.  I have been a Keith watchers since the 90's. I do not watch him anymore. Just can't because he was always Murrow like before but now it just plain revenge and someone got on his bad side. He even had to do the apology for MSNBC. Guess he did not like the taste of that.

    Parent
    What if Schuster had said Obama 'pimped' Michelle? (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Ellie on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:16:13 PM EST
    I wonder how many prObama MS/NBC shills -- or generic HRC &/or "The Clintons" haters -- would circle their wagons to protect Schuster

    &/or vilify his critics for being enemies of free speech

    &/or smack TeamObama and his supporters around just to appear thorough about the process. I mean, even independently observed negative speech / actions from Obama must mystically have have originated from HRC, doncha know.

    (She's not just a bad lady, but has the hypnotic power to create visions in Obama supporters -- or undecideds and people neutral in the process -- who notice he's doing something hypocritical or otherwise wrong.)

    Parent

    He was anti-Hillary before NH (none / 0) (#64)
    by wasabi on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:57:48 PM EST
    I remember him with Matthews looking a little sheepish after the votes in NH came in.

    Parent
    David Shuster (none / 0) (#119)
    by ineedalife on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:54:45 PM EST
    Hillary took down their fair-haired boy Shuster after he used whore imagery to describe Chelsea. All of the boyz everywhere, including Keith went a little nuts since then. They resent having to wear a cast-iron cup while covering this race.

    Parent
    Hillary has Lou Dobbs in his corner though, he's (none / 0) (#9)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:14:31 PM EST
    her Olbermann

    Nope. Find one HRC TV shill who's on it 24-7 (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Ellie on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:15:11 PM EST
    Lou Dobbs is a lame example of being comparable to Keith Obamann, in degree (fanboy-jools) or time spent in breathless sycophancy (blovi-hours) or cutting down HRC as an Obama "enemy" (flying monkey air miles.)

    Dobbs doesn't even make the zero / neutral grade here. To be a shill has to involve more than "Not Hating Her Guts or Unfairly Smacking HRC in a Pox on Both THeir Houses Way."

    Try again. Remember, the Obama rules (see end) -- and two-headeded coin -- don't power Real Worldsville.

    • (1) HRC is bad for being part of the partisan old politics and held up as what BO is "fighting".
    • (2) When Obama's ride shows cracks, HRC is bad for not living by his "new" post partisan rules that he's shown not to be obeying.
    • (3) Plus we hate her, so even when uninvolved in the latest BO show of clay feet, she's trotted out as doing "too" even if it's something from fmr. President Clinton's administration.

    NO SALE, try again.


    Parent
    Atrios has been a bit wobbly on this (none / 0) (#11)
    by jerry on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:16:06 PM EST
    I think Atrios is the best blogger ever.  I do.  

    I appreciate his "your candidate sucks" and "your candidate's supporter's suck" posts.

    I still feel he has been a bit wobbly on this.

    I think it was Dumbledore, awarding Neville 10 points who said, There are all kinds of courage. It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends.

    A lot of the Obama vs. Clinton abuse has come about because in the past seven years or so, bloggers and commenters on the left have let a whole bunch of abuse of others get a pass, because it was done by "our friends."  It starts by calling people troll and concern troll and brownshirt and by ousting people from our party as in "you don't fool me, you can't be a liberal or a Democrat, you must be a repuke!"  You can see this sort of nonsense and abuse even in Atrios' threads today.

    From there it's just a hop, skip, and a jump to Obamanistas and Clintonobots going after each other's throats.  Or to encourage Keith Olbermann to play fast and loose because he sounds so good.

    Thank god for Albus Dumbledore who is able to shine a light on courage (I think it takes more courage to stand up to our friends.)

    It seemed (none / 0) (#15)
    by mattt on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:19:11 PM EST
    when Hillary cozied up to Scaife in order to get a Wright jab in at Obama, Atrios almost wobbled off the fence.

    Me, I almost hurled.

    Parent

    Really? I thought it was a brilliant move for her (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by goldberry on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:34:49 PM EST
    I'm betting that there are a lot of people who regret the way they treated the Clintons after what Bush has done to the WH but they need a graceful way to be allowed to support her.  So, she makes the first move and they see that she's not so bad after all.  What's wrong with reaching out to a new constituency?

    Parent
    come on, the guy is mendacious. Listen (none / 0) (#47)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:40:51 PM EST
    simply because he is pro-Hillary does not make him decent. What he did to the Clintons was atrocious, he is the very epitome of the right wing slime machine. He is in every way as bad as the depiction of reverend wright, acting with utter malice and completely unconcerned with the truth. There are other advocates for Hillary that are decent and I completely sympathize with their point of view, but Scaife  is not one of them

    Parent
    I doubt very much (none / 0) (#147)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:44:09 PM EST
    that Scaife has much of a problem with the way Bush has behaved.  I think he's essentially just perverse and probably gets that now legendary thrill up his leg from consorting with Hillary, even from a distance.


    Parent
    "cozied"? (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by themomcat on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:36:12 PM EST
    She was invited by the editorial board of a newspaper that Scaife owns. Sen. Obama has been invited as well but has so far not responded to the invitation. Scaife may have made statements that indicate his opinion of both Clintons had changed but I certainly would not trust him. I give Sen. Clinton a good deal of credit for that interview. She answered the questions honestly and fairly, especially with regards to the Wright issue and when pressed about Wright with regards to Sen. Obama, she said they would have to ask him. Scaife had said that his checkbook was closed as far as anti-Hillary campaigning was concerned. Let's hope it stays closed if Sen. Obama wins the nomination.


    Parent
    False. Clinton responded to (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:22:17 PM EST
    a question.

    Parent
    She knew the question was coming, she knew who she (none / 0) (#27)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:29:07 PM EST
    was cozying up to. I don't even blame her though, it is a fair question, because it may have an impact on the general election. But this last fact is sad that people can be so easily exploited, in a perfect world wright would not be relevant.

    Parent
    In a perfect world, (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by dk on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:31:33 PM EST
    people wouldn't defer to other people who say mean and stupid things just because they wear ministers' collars.  But I'm an atheist, so perhaps my definition of perfect world differs from yours.

    Parent
    Telepathy doesn't equal fact; Try arguing SOP (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Ellie on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:40:53 PM EST
    ... or making a plea to reason. In the absence of empirical fact, making a case using logic and long-observed rules of a particular game do make for a stronger case.

    Telepathy? Nope. Saying she did know the question was coming, no sale, Carnac.

    Parent

    Get off it (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by echinopsia on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:11:33 PM EST
    with the "cozying up" cr*p. She gave an interview. For all she knew it was going to be a hostile interview, and it probably started out that way and would have continued that way if she had not defused the tension with her joke, "It just seemed so counterintuitive!"

    Or is it also your contention that when Obama gave the interview to the conservative paper in Las Vegas and talked about Reagan's "transformative" presidency, that he was "cozying up to" Republicans?

    If you think it's a good thing when he sucks up to Republicans - and he does it all the time - why is it a bad thing when she gives a single interview to Scaife?

    Maybe because she impressed someone who was inclined to dislike her, and that scares you?

    Parent

    She didn't "give an interview." (none / 0) (#99)
    by mattt on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:27:20 PM EST
    She made a pilgrimage to the offices of Scaife's paper and sit across a table from the man who personifies the vast right wing conspiracy.  Likely, since I give her all the credit in the world for intelligence and strategery, for the purpose of answering some questions about Obama.

    Meanwhile: no comment on the "Wright jab" line?  I thought that was pretty good. ;)

    Parent

    You mean a candidate gave an interview (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:33:29 PM EST
    during a campaign???

    I am shocked!! Simply shocked!!!!

    Parent

    I'm shocked that (none / 0) (#172)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:20:00 AM EST
    you missed the slur; she didn't give an interview, she "made a pilgrimage." Nasty rhetoric, don't ya think?

    Parent
    I see.... (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by DudeE on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:46:39 PM EST
    ...Primary coming up in PA...Pittsburgh Post-Gazette is largest daily newspaper in the region...and apparently Clinton's visit with the editorial board is some sinister strategy to get in a dig at Obama!  Something she could have done anywhere else at any other time!

    But, no she made a pilgrimage for no purpose than to hope and pray they asked her a question about Jeremiah Wright!

    She's not running for President.  She's stalking Obama.  Right?

    Parent

    Why shouldn't she answer a question (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by caseyOR on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:50:44 PM EST
    about Rev. Wright? It is not Hillary's job to protect Obama from his own bad decisions.And it's not like she is broadcasting ads all over the country playing the reverend on an endless loop. She was asked a question and she answered it.

    Parent
    Geez, it wasn't a pilgrimage (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by ChrisO on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:14:13 PM EST
    She went to the paper's offices, just like she's gone to a zillion other papers. I'm sure it would give Obama's supporters great comfort to have her blow off the paper in the middle of the campaign, to somehow "teach them a lesson." And why shouldn't she answer the question? This whole incident is a perfect example of the sense of entitlement on the part of so many Obama supporters, who actually think Hillary should be carrying Obama's water for him. The guy insulted her and her husband while humping a podium, and we're supposed to be shocked when she says he wouldn't be her pastor? She would have been justified saying he can go f*ck himself.

    The reason Obama's camp is jumping on this so much is because they dont want to face the fact that the Wright thing is all of Obama's making. Hillary smartly said not a word about it, even when it looked like Obama was quelling the controversy with his speech. But she makes one relatively benign comment, and there's celebration in the Obama camp. "We knew it. The whole thing is Hillary's fault."

    Parent

    It's not cozying up (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:42:20 PM EST
    when the guy runs one of the major newspapers in a state everybody agrees you have to win and win big in order to stay in the race.  What was she supposed to do, refuse to meet with his editorial board?  Hillary is a tough, tough girl, and not so stupid.

    She'd already been asked a couple times about Wright and basically said, "No comment," and clearly realized it wasn't possible to keep doing that. So she had a response thought out and prepared for the next time the question was thrown at her, and she used it.  It was a good and honest response.

    Wright is a sideshow, I agree, except in that it gives Obama yet another chance to falsify and dissemble.  Not that anyone but us ever notices.

    Parent

    In a perfect world, Obama would not have (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:34:06 PM EST
    aligned himself w/The Rev. Wright, given Wright's inflammatory style and personal vitriol from the pulpit towards the Clintons.  I can see why Obama chose that particular church, as has a huge African American membership and is in his Il. Senate district.  But I don't know what other choices he had in the district for a church home that would be less controversial when running for national office.

    Parent
    Moreover, she had been asked the same question... (none / 0) (#82)
    by tbetz on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:12:27 PM EST
    ... the previous day and had declined to answer it.

    This time, the answer was calculated both to cater to Scaife's political perversions, and to deflect her Tuszla lie.


    Parent

    Or maybe (none / 0) (#94)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:23:56 PM EST
    it was deemed time to answer it.

    C'mon. Everyone knew what her answer would be before she said it.

    Even if she's the all scheming pol people make her ot to be, then she's been planning a run since she was 12, and would make sure her pastor wasn't noncontroversial.

    Don't blame Hillary for Wright. Wasn't her fault.

    Parent

    correction (none / 0) (#97)
    by SantaMonicaJoe on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:25:29 PM EST
    pastor was noncontroversial.

    My keypad is having "issues" and the backspace isn't working. I will try to be more careful.

    Parent

    Could you illustrate how you arrived at this? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Ellie on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:42:26 PM EST
    Which portions of her answer or actions led you to tht conclusion?

    I don't see how you can pin your conclusion on what you linked, other than your particular choice of candidate. (You're of course totally entitled to your preference, but YMMV here and I believe that gap in interpretation makes for the difference.)

    Parent

    Timing. (none / 0) (#185)
    by tbetz on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 09:37:00 AM EST
    That's enough.

    Parent
    The Guy Working For David Brock (none / 0) (#118)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:49:25 PM EST
    is complaining about just talking to Scaife?  How ridiculous (but deeply serious) he is.

    Parent
    it's curious... (none / 0) (#126)
    by white n az on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:38:00 PM EST
    that the people who are bothered by Hillary sitting through an interview with Scaife are Obama supporters.

    Why would someone get the impression that Obama supporters are so eager to find things to criticize Hillary for that they jump on a non-story like this that doesn't involve them at all.

    Perhaps you almost hurled but I for one am unimpressed with your overly dramatic and certainly faux outrage and wish you had better things to do with your time than to lay this tripe here where it's not useful.

    Parent

    Olbermann has lost all creditbility (none / 0) (#17)
    by ChiTownDenny on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:21:08 PM EST
    MSNBC, part of the a(N)yone (B)ut (C)linton network, has become a disappointing sham.  Gov. Rendell was right, Fox News has become the arbiter of non-bias reporting on this Dem primary.

    and in defense of Olbermann (none / 0) (#25)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:25:13 PM EST
    yes he is a blowhard (they all are) and he is clearly enamored with Obama and has become an antagonist of Senator Clinton's, but besides these points he often fights the good fight, exposing the Bush Administration, etc. And I do appreciate as of late how he continues to pursue Walmart for their gross action against a disabled woman who has lost a son in Iraq. I think once this primary season is over people will appreciate him again.

    Nope. (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by wasabi on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:01:23 PM EST
    There is no going back for me.

    Parent
    Me neither (none / 0) (#173)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:23:44 AM EST
    Once someone behaves in such an unethical way I don't care what else they have to say. He's the "worst person in the world" to me. He had a chance to be somebody of substance. He chose to be just another buffoon perched beside Tweety. Sad really.

    Parent
    Never been to Drudge (none / 0) (#30)
    by goldberry on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:31:54 PM EST
    I can't think of why a pro-Clinton blogger would want to go there for info.  The Clinton geeks frown on bad data.

    Which pro Clinton bloggers... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:38:55 PM EST
    ...rely on Drudge as a source? I thought it was JMM and Kos over the muslim garb photo "scandal." Anybody else that I'm not aware of?

    Parent
    Josh Marshall, sadly (none / 0) (#131)
    by esmense on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:03:54 PM EST
    on the muslim garb issue...but he did admit that he did so (use Drudge as a source) with some reservations. Just not enough reservations to pass on a juicy opportunity to smear Clinton

    Parent
    Olbermann seems very objective to me (none / 0) (#43)
    by digdugboy on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:38:01 PM EST
    almost robotically so. I wonder if our perceptions of him depend upon which candidate we favor?

    Apparently so.... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by ChiTownDenny on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:42:03 PM EST
    I wouldn't call him objective, but clearly our (none / 0) (#51)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:43:34 PM EST
    present opinions of him are greatly influenced by our own candidate. Like I said, I think his virtues will come through once again when this mess is over

    Parent
    I would be just (5.00 / 6) (#60)
    by themomcat on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:52:02 PM EST
    as disappointed in his rhetoric if it were directed at Sen. Obama. I expect a so-called "journalist" who is emulating Edward R. Murrow to be as objective and as fair as his hero. And I am old enough to remember watching Murrow on TV in the 1950's. The mainstream corporate media has one objective since the end of the "Fairness Doctrine" and that is to protect their corporate interests. And those interests include electing Republicans.

    Parent
    Olbermann Sensaltionalist (none / 0) (#87)
    by pluege on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:18:21 PM EST
    it is clearly not realistic to expect Olbermann to be objective - it is not his schtick. Olbermann is a  sensationalist. We love it when he points his fire at republicans, but a main Democrat...not so much.

    In reality, Olbermann is a fine example of the infotainmentization of news. He gets a pass from the  left, again, because of his usual targets that we all hate, but in realty, he is as much a part of the problem as the wingnuts.

    Parent

    Nope. (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by wasabi on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:03:48 PM EST
    Not gonna happen.

    Parent
    What virtues? (none / 0) (#174)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:27:35 AM EST
    Attacking a Democratic candidate for president relentlessly with spin and Republican talking points? Being so biased that even FOX looks evenhanded?

    It isn't about which candidate I favor, I started as an Edwards supporter, it's about honesty and decency. Never, ever going back.

    Parent

    Its the Triage actually, of NBC-Newsweek (none / 0) (#103)
    by Salt on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:33:03 PM EST
    and Wapo political tabloid and really bad journalism to boot its starts with Alter.  KO is a joke past mention in my view.  It took Lou Dobbs, LOU DOBBS of all people last night to defend Hillary, against the media bias and the get out of the race drum beat not being sourced to the Obama campaign and his supporters properly when reporting the story.  And it was also Dobbs who covered the media study showing that had Obama 82 percent positive compared to Hillary's 52 positives coverage.

    Heh, I'm not a Dem but if I were, I would not want Dean out there representing the National Committee or the Party's credibility and spouting rules rules rules while supporting the disenfranchisement of so many Democratic Party voters as too bad he could have just said SO and had the same affect.

    Dobbs (none / 0) (#116)
    by themomcat on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:43:49 PM EST
    was defending her again tonight, several times.

    Parent
    As an HRC supporter, that scares me (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by trishb on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:55:33 PM EST
    I don't want to see his name and hers in the same sentence.

    Parent
    This does not equal being an actual shill, tho (none / 0) (#136)
    by Ellie on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:35:40 PM EST
    ... as several ObamaFans seem to think.

    Defending a candidate against unfair, emotional, unfactual, distorted attacks from media personalities indulging personal biases is what any competent journalist SHOULD be doing. That's the JOB.

    If Dobbs did this, good for him. But that doesn't make him a pro-HRC shill just because he's not part of the mob.

    By the measure of HRC-hating Obama fans' though, not piling on her "equals" being a shill. This might pass muster in Bush's Banana Republic(an) paradise or your more famous fascist states.

    It's well below the mere standard of competence in a democracy with a functional news and current affairs media though. It certainly doesn't fit covering a primary where the "refs" are supposed to report fairly on both candidates.

    TeamObama think they're owed x-years of codpiece sniffing, only their guy's codpiece. Yes, my selection of gender and panties or manties here was entirely intentional.

    Parent

    does support of Obama necessarily indicate sexism, (none / 0) (#137)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:40:01 PM EST
    or a delusional state? that is pretty dismissive

    Parent
    just happen to think that people can be justified (none / 0) (#138)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:41:30 PM EST
    in their support of either candidate. You can argue for Hillary without the hostility

    Parent
    I sort of (none / 0) (#151)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:10:29 AM EST
    agree with you, although my values are such that I could never under any circumstances support Obama for any position of responsibility.

    But you've wandered into a blog that's pretty much the last refuge of Hillary supporters, and we've, um, let's say lost patience.  Two months ago, we were all arguing politely with Obama supporters, but we've had that literally beaten out of us.  So don't expect unemotional responses from us here.

    Parent

    haha, I will keep that in mind (none / 0) (#152)
    by demps on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:17:59 AM EST
    Whaaa --- ? Are you on koolaid or something? (none / 0) (#141)
    by Ellie on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:37:29 PM EST
    Where on earth does outlining established conventions of neutral journalism -- which you have left entirely out of your standard for distinguishing questions about HRC bashing from shilling FOR her -- now constitute accusations of sexism or qualify as hostility?

    Questioning facts is questioning facts. Questioning bias is questioning bias and whatever the distortion stems from is a step beyond.

    Admonishments telling me to "relax" because I'm using REASON are just too bizarrely self-rebutting to address at all, so I'll leave that to you.

    You're on thinner ice than your tissue=thin arguments here.

    Parent

    I like to hear the worst (none / 0) (#120)
    by 1jpb on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:06:41 PM EST
    about the candidates who I support.  My tv/radio time is limited, but when I get a chance I mostly look for views that are different than my own.  I (a BO supporter) have recently found that Lou Dobbs is very satisfying in this regard.  I'm a fan of Rush, Hugh, and Rusty on the radio.  Hannity is a favorite on tv.

    But, I've  always liked KO because he has great coverage of the Bush administration.  If people don't like his HRC coverage (which often occurs during the first segment) they can switch to Bill O for the first segment, where you're likely to see BO attacked, and then after that segment you can switch to KO--this is what I do (on the occasions when I can watch the first broadcast where the two programs are on simultaneously.)

    I learn a lot more from those who test my assumptions than I do from those who agree with me.  That's why I really like talkleft, you keep me on my toes.  I hope that some here realize that the benefit could be mutual.  In my opinion, HRC's prospects are strengthened when her supporters accept and respond to questioning.

    I am in the same boat, Barack supporter as well (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:12:03 PM EST
    though Hannity is tough to stomach, simply because he is so very stupid

    Parent
    The more I hear about cable (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 08:00:13 AM EST
    the less I think I am missing.

    About twice a month I take the kids to McD's and tune in to msnbc or cnn.  After 20 minutes, I'm quite happy to leave - the choppy format is lousy, the commercials dominate and the all manner of tabloid and news of the weird bits are included.

    I stick to NPR and get Wapo and NYTimes online.  The cable pundits seem only to detract and distract, not to add to the discussion.

    Parent

    being a BO supporter, what is your opinion of the (none / 0) (#122)
    by demps on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:13:38 PM EST
    Michigan, Florida mess?

    Maya and Hillary (none / 0) (#135)
    by carrienae on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:34:18 PM EST
    Celebrating Women: A Note from Dr. Maya Angelou
    by Dr. Maya Angelou
    3/31/2008 11:45:30 AM

    This entry is part of a series in celebration of Women's History Month.

    You may write me down in history
    With your bitter, twisted lies,
    You may trod me in the very dirt
    But still, like dust, I'll rise.

    This is not the first time you have seen Hillary Clinton seemingly at her wits end, but she has always risen, always risen, much to the dismay of her adversaries and the delight of her friends.

    Hillary Clinton will not give up on you and all she asks of you is that you do not give up on her.

    There is a world of difference between being a woman and being an old female. If you're born a girl, grow up, and live long enough, you can become an old female. But, to become a woman is a serious matter. A woman takes responsibility for the time she takes up and the space she occupies.

    Hillary Clinton is a woman. She has been there and done that and has still risen. She is in this race for the long haul. She intends to make a difference in our country.

    She is the prayer of every woman and man who long for fair play, healthy families, good schools, and a balanced economy.

    She declares she wants to see more smiles in the families, more courtesies between men and women, more honesty in the marketplace. Hillary Clinton intends to help our country to what it can become.

    She means to rise.

    She means to help our country rise. Don't give up on her, ever.

    In fact, if you help her to rise, you will rise with her and help her make this country a wonderful, wonderful place where every man and every woman can live freely without sanctimonious piety, without crippling fear.

    Rise Hillary.

    Rise.

    Keith Olbermann was a good (none / 0) (#140)
    by facta non verba on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:19:00 PM EST
    sportcaster but as a news commentator I have never found him that appealing. It is not as if he some sort investigative reporter uncovering deep secrets of the realm. Anger and rants only get you so far and that's pretty much the extent of his programme. Even going a few years, watching his show did not exactly leave me feeling better more informed or more savvy after watching it.

    Looking at his ratings provides an interesting picture. His HH (households) reach back in late 2007 was just shy of 800 k homes a night, far short of O'Reilly's 2.5 mm homes a night. January 2008 began to see an uptick to near 1 mm homes, or 25% increase, for KO's Countdown. But that seems more tied to the start of the primary season. The ratings then take a dramatic rise around SuperTuesday consistently grabbing more than 1 mm HH a night. His peak came in late February reaching 1.6 mm HH. But then came the Special Comment on Ferraro, the most galling unnecessary and hateful commentary I have ever heard. Ferraro a racist? Honestly what did she say? And over a two week old interview in the Torrance Daily Breeze?

    Well Keith's ratings dropped off cliff, down well below 1 mm HH and have since recovered to around 1 mm HH.

    Nielsen ratings through March 12th:
    http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/03/14/oreilly-vs-olbermann-through-wednesday-march-12/2941

    Had he stayed somewhat objective (none / 0) (#163)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:34:42 AM EST
    I wonder where his ratings would be.  I have to wonder if he was "encouraged" to become a shill by people like Matthews, because they knew this would inevitably harm him....

    Keith seems pretty gullible to me.  I suspect he'd fall for something like Matthewsian sabotage.

    Parent

    When Pat Buchanan has (none / 0) (#144)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:38:15 PM EST
    no dog in the fight, he's a damn shrewd observer.  He's an odd duck, for sure, with some absolutely vomit-inducing beliefs, but he mostly keeps those under wraps when he's on the teevee.

    Olbermann (none / 0) (#149)
    by vcmvo2 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:52:30 PM EST
    I will no longer read his special comments or his posts on dkos. He is making an ass out of himself,He was much better targetting Bush. He's lost oa lot of credibility with me.

    Take a Look (none / 0) (#167)
    by bob h on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 05:19:30 AM EST
    at the NYT OpEd pages; the "liberal" columnists have all turned into rabid Hillary-bashers; only Paul Krugmann has kept his head.

    Keith has become a joke. (none / 0) (#180)
    by coigue on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 06:43:11 PM EST
    It's very unfortunate.

    I am back to a diet of Frontline and the NewsHour

    Keith has become a joke. (none / 0) (#181)
    by coigue on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 06:43:31 PM EST
    It's very unfortunate.

    I am back to a diet of Frontline and the NewsHour