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Howard Dean On FL And MI

Big Tent Democrat

Todd Beeton has Howard Dean's statement:

We're glad to hear that the Governors of Michigan and Florida are willing to lend their weight to help resolve this issue. As we've said all along, we strongly encourage the Michigan and Florida state parties to follow the rules, so today's public overtures are good news. The rules, which were agreed to by the full DNC including representatives from Florida and Michigan over 18 months ago, allow for two options. First, either state can choose to resubmit a plan and run a party process to select delegates to the convention; second, they can wait until this summer and appeal to the Convention Credentials Committee, which determines and resolves any outstanding questions about the seating of delegates. We look forward to receiving their proposals should they decide to submit new delegate selection plans and will review those plans at that time. The Democratic Nominee will be determined in accordance with party rules, and out of respect for the presidential campaigns and the states that did not violate party rules, we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game.

. . .

(Emphasis supplied.) I have a plan. But Howard Dean needs to be more proactive than he seems to want to be in this letter. I hope there is something being done with more urgency than Dean is showing here. More . . .

Dean continues:

"Through all the speculation, we should also remember the overwhelming enthusiasm and turnout that we have already seen, and respect the voters of the ten states who have yet to have their say.

"As we head towards November, our nominee must have the united support of a strong Democratic Party that's ready to fight and ready to beat John McCain. After seven years of Republican rule, I am confident that we will elect a Democratic president who will fight for America's families in the White House. Now we must hear from the voters in twelve states and territories who have yet to make their voices heard."

Pretty empty BS from Dean here. If this is all he has, he is failing the Democratic Party miserably.

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    Wow (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:42:17 PM EST
    Does his 50 state strategy include keeping one intelligent person at DNC headquarters?

    No Longer A 50 State Strategy (5.00 / 11) (#7)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:53:07 PM EST
    It is now the 48 state strategy. Must be nice to feel so confident that Obama will win the GE that the DNC is willing to concede FL and MI to the Republicans.

    Parent
    You've identified the critical flaw. . . (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:33:37 PM EST
    The DNC is headquartered in DC and therefore isn't in any of the 50 states!

    Parent
    Ha. They should move to Centerville IA. (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:49:24 PM EST
    The great Dean deceit is that he knows (none / 0) (#135)
    by Marguerite Quantaine on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:37:11 AM EST
    Florida Democrats didn't break the rules.

    Dean appeared on Good Morning America and, by omission of the facts, flat out lied.

    Charlie Crist, the Republican Governor of Florida, and the Republican Legislature of Florida effectively told Dean that Republicans were not bound by the rules of the Democratic Party so the Republicans changed the primary date over the protest of Florida Democrats.

    Dean then punished the Democrats for what Republicans did.

    The Florida Democrats then rose up AGAINST DEAN by putting all the candidates names on the ballot and marched to the polls in record numbers.

    Dean then disenfranchised voters in his own Party in order to -- what? Teach Republicans a lesson????

    Florida Democrats did not break any rules.

    WHY can't anyone understand that?

    WHY haven't the Democrats of other states stood up in defense of the Florida vote?

    Parent

    How did Howard Dean (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:42:19 PM EST
    become such an unresponsive buck passer?  This isn't the Howard Dean I expected......what the?  And because your plan thread had to be closed due to the overwhelming response to your genius I just thought I would say that yeah, it's a pretty good plan.

    How is he unresponsive? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:00:32 PM EST
    Is he supposed to submit the dates to the states for when primaries are to be held? Is he supposed to write out where the polling places are supposed to be?

    No, if Florida and Michigan want do-overs, they submit their plans to the DNC. What's buck-passing with that?

    Parent

    DNC (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by ghost2 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:00:02 AM EST
    what Dean doesn't say is this:

    Florida democrats had no choice in the timing of primary.  Their hands were forced by republicans.

    Further, on the election day, a very important initiative was on the ballot, so democrats had to show up.

    The rules stipulated stripping the violator states of half their delegates (like GOP, any controversy there?), but DNC's Rules and By-laws Committee, due to strong argument by yes, you-guessed-it Donna Brazille chose to strip Florida of all its delegates, and also to ban campaigning and spending money there to boot.

    Andgarden is definitely right.  DNC has managed to f&^k up a one car parade.

    Now, Dean is adding to it.

    Did I mention that DNC's solution for Florida was to offer them help of hold a caucus at 125 locations across the state?  yes, 125 locations for the whole state of Florida.

    Parent

    Cool. I've always wanted to live in (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:46:30 PM EST
    the White House:

    After seven years of Republican rule, I am confident that we will elect a Democratic president who will fight for America's families in the White House.

    But, why doesn't Dean address those other states that held their primaries b/4 the DNC-imposed date?  

    Also, BTD, your motives in posting this after J left the bldg. are quite suspect.

    I probably am in trouble for it (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:50:44 PM EST
    Dean hopes.... (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Coral Gables on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:55:15 PM EST
    Dean is pushing the buck down the calendar hoping for a Clinton or Obama drop out before the convention. Proactive he isn't.

    The state Dem parties will be on their own. Michigan perhaps justifiably so, Florida through no fault of their own.

    Seens DNC Is Pushing Only One Candidate (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:02:52 PM EST
    to drop out. Reference Brazile's frequent media attacks on Hillary and her statement.

     

      . . . "If these attacks are contrasts based on policy differences, there is no need to stop the race or halt the debate," Brazile said. "But, if this is more division, more diversion from the issues and more of the same politics of personal destruction, chairman Dean and other should be on standby."


    Parent
    but who is she speaking for not the Party surely (none / 0) (#14)
    by Salt on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:07:31 PM EST
    and if she is thats a major problem for Dems.

    Parent
    What does she mean...stop the race (none / 0) (#33)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:40:15 PM EST
    Is she threatening us?

    Parent
    Yeah. Stop the race. . . (none / 0) (#42)
    by hookfan on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:49:56 PM EST
    I'm sure that would go over well for both sides. I think she suffers from some overblown grandiosity.

    Parent
    Brazille is not the only one (none / 0) (#112)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:39:57 PM EST
    Obama is not going to lose the pledged delegates. Do the math, folks. That part is over. The Party does not want a fight at the convention where the black candidate has the nomination taken away from him by backroom deals. It would destroy the party.

    Therefore, the only way that Clinton wins is to destroy the party.

    Therefore, as we speak, superdelegates and party insiders are forming a line to announce their support for Obama. I heard one this afternoon this afternoon, and the narrative was "I support Obama, let's not destroy the party, Hillary." Party officials are talking to the usual money people to cut the flow to Hillary. For as many pity parties as Clinton supporters have had among themselves, the reality is that Hillary IS now the outsider, and will now be expected to be the good soldier and step down.

    The DNC won't refuse FL and MI their revotes, but the state parties will have to come up with plans and come up with the money. The DNC hopes that it will all be over before FL and MI have their revotes, if they have them.

    It's over, folks. Smile and wave at the cameras.

    Parent

    The "math" (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by hookfan on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:38:10 AM EST
    tells me neither can win enough delegates to win the crown. The superdelegates must step up and decide.
    Secondly, your "black candidate" can be substituted with "female candidate" and make just as much sense. It too would destroy the party. If money is being cut off to influence the election, dont you think there will be a huge backlash from Hillary's supporters? Talk about splitting the Party. the blade cuts both ways. "I support Hillary, let's not destroy the party Obama" is just as valid. Get a grip. . .

    Parent
    Neither can win (none / 0) (#129)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:09:43 AM EST
    but Obama is the leader in pledged delegates and will be the leader going into the convention. That's just the math.

    True, neither can win without the superdelegates. But the truth is that if women want to abandon the Democratic Party because Hillary Clinton wasn't nominated where do they go? To John McCain and the Republicans? Then kiss reproductive and civil rights goodbye for your lifetime. Your choice.

    If my theory is true you will hear superdelegates one by one announce for Obama between now and Pennsylvania while party leaders come out calling for some kind of conclusion before the convention. The last thing that the leaders want is one candidate to have the delegate lead and another to have the popular vote, so don't expect the DNC to go out of their way to help FL or MI, but do expect the onslaught of superdelegates before PA. In the last few days Walter Shorenstein (a big Democratic party money man) said the race needed a conclusion. So did Art Torres, head of the Democratic Party in California. Why didn't either man endorse Hillary? After all, Hillary won California. Because, in order for the race to end before the convention Hillary has to lose and concede. She cannot win the nomination without a convention fight. They are doing the best they can to avoid that. Sherrod Brown did the same thing on NPR this morning. He talked about bringing the race to a close but would not endorse Clinton, who had just won his state. What does that say to you?

    It truly is a bad situation for the Party bigwigs. They don't want to see themselves snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    Obama is the leader in winning pledged delegates in the primaries. Having the most delegates is how you win. The sooner it's over the longer everyone will have for their wounds to heal.

    Parent

    And the A-A community? (none / 0) (#161)
    by hookfan on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:45:31 PM EST
    The same argument could be made about them. Where are they going to go? To McCain and kiss goodbye civil rights and any fairness in prosecution and sentencing laws? Yeah right. Also, you lean heavily on the women being in your pocket no matter how fairly Hillary is or is not treated. You can continue your delusions about that if you wish. I believe 20% have said they will not support Obama now (of Hill's supporters). With what you are proposing that can only go up.Foolish gambit you are suggesting. finally, consider the old codgers. Obama is alienating them with his ageism and statements about social security being in trouble. We vote (I'm an old codger too). He might very well lose them to McCain as well. So you want to make some adjustments to the argument that what is good for the party is to dis Hillary.

    Finally, pledged delegate count is only one measure to consider for who should be the candidate. Especially so since how pledged delegates are obtained is so silly and idiotic. Popular vote is another indicator, which is also largely hard to establish due to thevoter suppression that occurrs in caucus process (many caucuses don't even report actual votes-- they are estimates), as well as winning key states, and the final subjective of momentum. Focusing on only pledged delegates is idiotic if one believes in a truly representative Candidate. Besides what is pledged now can change in the process from the caucuses-- we don't know and won't know for some time what the actual delegate count will be.

    Parent

    Yeh, we all heard that the line of 50 (none / 0) (#113)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:41:41 PM EST
    s-d's was going to be rolled out by Obama today. Uh huh.

    Parent
    Now its a maybe for Thurs. (none / 0) (#114)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:46:59 PM EST
    It won't be today (none / 0) (#130)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:14:09 AM EST
    It will be over the next seven weeks.

    And it will be accompanied by party officials saying that they have to settle the race before the convention. That is nothing but couched language saying that Clinton has lost and needs to pull out.

    Hillary supporters have claimed that Hillary was the underdog with the media. I don't think that that's necessarily true. As someone elsewhere wrote, all Dems are underdogs with the media, each getting skewered depending on how it best serves the Repubs and the oligarchy. But listen to the message from the Party.

    Parent

    I'll tell (none / 0) (#126)
    by sas on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:07:47 AM EST
    you what.

    If pledged delegates take this away from Hillary, this woman is walking out of the party.  And I am not alone.

    The Democratic party has long taken us for granted.

    If they screw this up, they can go to hell.

    Parent

    Hillary (none / 0) (#131)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:16:40 AM EST
    can't win the pledged delegates. So where are you walking to? McCain? Nader? I would suggest joining your local Green Party and begin working for a viable local party. That's where I'm going when I give up on the Dems.

    Parent
    Spoken like a Repubican to Al Gore. (none / 0) (#137)
    by Marguerite Quantaine on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:41:29 AM EST
    Dean and (none / 0) (#125)
    by sas on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:05:29 AM EST
    Brazile and the others at the DNC are really beginning to aggravate me.

    I have long been angry at their stupidity in the way this whole process has been handled - the Florida and Michigan denials of delegates, the lack of action and preparation for what we all knew was going to happen.  

    This will be a divisive convention and there will be alot of unresolved anger if things are not handled fairly.

    I'm ready to bolt this party - not to go to the Republicans - just to get out and register Independent.  

    Parent

    I'd suggest (none / 0) (#132)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:18:26 AM EST
    the Greens. Just being independent would make you pretty meaningless and put you outside of any party.

    Parent
    Chip.On. Shoulder (none / 0) (#57)
    by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:16:18 PM EST
    Does this woman have a chip on her shoulder as big as Mount Rushmore (saw that posted here earlier today) or what?

    Or is she just on a routine power trip?

    Who does she think she is talking that way to candidates for the President of the United States?

    I'm now definitely in favor of keeping Guantanamo open, if only with one bed available.

    Parent

    Remember, Donna Brazile (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by litigatormom on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:28:20 PM EST
    was Al Gore's campaign manager.  Who got totally outgunned in Florida, on several different levels.  How did she get to be a senior DNC mucky-muck?

    And suggesting that the DNC would STOP the race? What the frak is that about?

     

    Parent

    Brazile has pretty much (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:34:23 PM EST
    already said she'd resign as a SP if Obama was not given the nomination.

    Yet another reason for Clinton to win.

    Parent

    She talked about a convention walkout (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:04:56 PM EST
    according to a story I saw on some blog. All we need -- I remember such walkouts before. We lost the White House very time. Brazile is a fool.

    Parent
    Brazile (none / 0) (#133)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:21:15 AM EST
    is providing the public narrative that the Party leaders are afraid of but won't admit to. Don't be so hard on her. It's her job.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Korha on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:25:42 PM EST
    Dean needs to step it up, now.

    Parent
    Actually, (none / 0) (#134)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:33:19 AM EST
    Dean is doing exactly what the Party leaders want him to do. He's defusing the MI and FL problem. A problem that Clinton has exacerbated in her quest to snag more delegates at whatever cost.

    Clinton has made no friends at the DNC with her midstream change of heart regarding the faux primaries.

    Dean has said, sure, go ahead and have do-overs. Which state is going to come up with another 20 million dollars to run primaries? There is no way a state party can afford it, and in both states the Republicans will get fantastic mileage if the Dems try to get the state to pay for it--and they won't get the states to pay for do-overs. In short, the party leaders in both states agreed to move the primaries in violation of party rules, so if there's a revote it's done on their dime. This means that there won't be a revote. It's conceivable that caucuses could be run, but that's not going to satisfy the Clinton campaign. Clinton would be the favorite to win Florida (Michigan would be iffier with the full explanation of the NAFTA story) but her odds go down considerably with caucuses. Plus, the more important part of those elections is the popular vote. Clinton would at least have an argument for the nomination if she came into the convention losing the delegates but with a lead in the popular vote. I don't think the Party now wants to give her the opportunity for that.

    While we can pretend to decipher personal preferences among the Party elite, I believe that if the race were reversed, if Clinton had the delegate lead, you would be hearing the same rhetoric and the behind-the-scenes pushing would be directed against Obama.

    Parent

    Let's not be so hasty (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Lou Grinzo on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:04:52 PM EST
    Given all the states that have yet to vote, plus all the uncertainties about holding do-overs for those two states (including provisions for those in military service), I think this is a reasonable statement.

    For all we know he could be pushing very hard behind the scenes for re-votes in both states, the optimal little-d democratic solution, in my opinion, and doesn't want to cause problems for that process with his public comments.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:43:11 PM EST
    1,749,172 Democrats voted in the Florida primary.  Read that number again. Almost 2 million Democrats voted.

    Should this race be decided and we are not counted, bet on a suit.
    That would again not be a fair election...again.

    We will not accept that.

    Parent

    What about the people who were told (none / 0) (#117)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:54:53 PM EST
    that the vote didn't count? How are they served by now being denied their vote in a primary that would count?

    If "We" means that you won't accept the rules of the DNC after the fact, agreed to by all candidates beforehand, then you could sue the DNC. Good luck. You'll get a better chance of getting your vote counted by getting your state party get the revote process started. Good luck.

    Parent

    Don't blame Dean.... (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by p lukasiak on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:08:55 PM EST
    he didn't make the rules, the entire DNC was responsible for them.

    I think he's doing precisely the right thing... not taking sides, and passing the buck to the credentials committee where it belongs.

    There is one thing he could do, however, that might resolve this mess...  Set up a special DNC fund for people who want to contribute toward the cost of new primary elections in Florida and Michigan, and if the cash donated reaches what is needed to hold primaries by May 15, the money goes toward holding primaries in late june if the nomination has not been settled.  If not enough money is raised, or if the nomination is settled, the DNC keeps the money.

    The plain fact is that holding new elections won't get either candidate to the number of delegates needed to lock in the nomination... nor will seating the delegates allow Clinton to lock it in without Superdelegates.

    Ny solution is seat them, but don't let them vote on the first ballot.  If either candidate can win on the first ballot with superdelegate support, good for them.  If not, FL and MI get to vote, and the goalpost gets moved.

    Putting money where mouth is? (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:12:42 PM EST
    Michigan Governor is talking about Firehouse rules.  Jeralyn could have PayPal link for new primaries.  Little kids sell lemonade.  Teenagers have carwashes.  The possibilities are endless.

    Parent
    And the ever-popular bake sales (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:21:14 PM EST
    and craft fairs -- but I want Dean to make the cupcakes and Brazile to make the potholders . . . instead of making threats to only make this worse.

    Parent
    What are Firehouse Rules? (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by litigatormom on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:30:12 PM EST
    Do we get to have Dalmatians?

    Parent
    In a link in an earlier Fl/MI (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:42:33 PM EST
    post, of which there have been so very many today.  Apparently voters show up at the closest firehouse and vote; but there are lots less firehouses than precinct polling places so its a bunch cheaper.  

    Parent
    You know how far the nearest Firehouse is (none / 0) (#76)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:48:52 PM EST
    to my house?  

    Parent
    Holding a primary in June in Florida (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by athyrio on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:37:13 PM EST
    would be awful for alot of Florida voters that leave for the summer months...It would disinfranchize them totally....

    Parent
    somebody needs to make a nursing home joke (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:39:19 PM EST
    Not at all (none / 0) (#37)
    by Coral Gables on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:47:31 PM EST
    Florida has early voting, they also have absentee voting. There are no excuses in Florida.

    Parent
    Both state parties blew it. (none / 0) (#26)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:34:29 PM EST
    Dean basically said, Come up with a plan and we'll see if it's doable.

    Nothing wrong with that except it will give some people less to complain about. Let's get these governors to get some plans so that the people of Michigan and Florida can vote in a real primary.

    Parent

    Bob, have you noticed (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by hookfan on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:57:38 PM EST
    that Republicans are not having the problems we have? If the state parties blew it, why don't the Repubs also have problems? The DNC has contributed to this as well through their apparently shortsighted application of arbitrary consequences of the 'rules". The Repubs applied consequences too. But their application is accepted as even handed and fair. Not so with the Dems.

    Parent
    The GOP (none / 0) (#74)
    by p lukasiak on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:45:54 PM EST
    the GOP has a candidate.  That candidate can now graciously agree to seat the entire delegations from those bad, bad, states that broke the rules.

    which is precisely what was supposed to happen with the Dems.  I mean, when was the last time the nomination was still up in the air with only 14 states to go?   (even in 1968, everyone knew that Humphrey had the nomination going in....that's why so many people were PO'd).  Practically nobody who was involved in politics the last time this kind of thing happened is still around.  

    A brokered convention is something that was only a theoretical possibility to the DNC when this decision was made -- but everyone "knew" that it would be over by now.

    Parent

    Here's Matt Bai, BTD's absolute (none / 0) (#88)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:07:50 PM EST
    favorite political writer on FL/MI:

    GAMBLING THE FRANCHISE

    He says the last contested Dem. nomination was 1984.  Of course, he also says Obama's name was never on the ballot in MI, so what does he know anyways?

    Parent

    The reason (none / 0) (#136)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:41:02 AM EST
    why the Republicans aren't having problems is because they have a nominee. Their decision to penalize the two states by giving them half their votes is less than the old "3/5 rule". Imagine if Romney were still battling McCain and Michigan only counted half.

    Now the Republicans can say, sure, Florida and Michigan, your votes count just like the rest.

    If the Democratic race is over before the convention, expect similar deals to be made by the Dem credentials committee.

    Everyone loves democracy, especially when people's votes don't get in the way.

    Parent

    yeesh (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:38:40 PM EST
    Dean is certainly a cautionary tale.  This guy can't even solve the FL/MI problem and he wanted to run the whole country?

    Dean was speaking on behalf (none / 0) (#48)
    by p lukasiak on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:55:09 PM EST
    of the DNC as a whole.  Its not in Howard Dean's power as chair of the DNC to do anything -- other than put out letters that express the will of the DNC board/Exec Committee (which looks to me like them saying "hey, its not our problem").

    Parent
    Sorry but I disagree (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by chrisvee on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:45:42 PM EST
    He should be able to influence events and in a word, lead in order to get the party out of this mess.

    Parent
    Exactly. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:07:26 PM EST
    I've been on boards, these are people from all over the country, they come in and have to wade through all sorts of materials and look for leadership from staff, and Dean leads the staff, to say -- wait a minute, now let's anticipate consequences if. . . .

    Parent
    He is influencing the events. (none / 0) (#138)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:42:09 AM EST
    Just not the way Clinton supporters want.

    Parent
    Can he disqualify Donna as a Super D? (none / 0) (#59)
    by plf1953 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:19:48 PM EST
    Anyone suggesting a caucus in florida has (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:58:04 PM EST
    never lived in Florida.  

    CAUCUS. If I never hear that word again it will (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:09:58 PM EST
    be too soon.  Remove it from the dictionary, please.  What a tragedy these things have produced.

    I still don't understand why taxpapers have to (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by athyrio on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:25:13 PM EST
    pay $18 million dollars for another primary just because Obama didnt win Florida....A bit of an expensive temper tantrum....

    For the same reason (none / 0) (#78)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:51:33 PM EST
    that I am forced to pay for a war I have vehemently against since day 1.  

    I realize that everyone wants to blame Dean, Obama, Clinton, Brazille, etc. But I just don't get why the state legislators of Fl and Mi are getting such a free pass.  They knowingly broke the rules.  

    It is insulting to say that this is nothing more than a tantrum.  

    Parent

    Because In Florida (none / 0) (#107)
    by BDB on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:00:23 PM EST
    the majority of legislators were Republican and they added a paper trail initiative to it to gain Dem support for the bill (not that they need it).  Do I blame the Republican legislature in Florida, yes I do.  But I also blame the DNC for letting the Republicans put us in this box.

    Having said that, I will give Dean this, via Digby he was excellent on Hardball about why this primary is not some vicious blood match that will destroy the Democratic party.  My favorite part of the exchange:

    MATTHEWS: Are there any rules that are being broken? The Republicans have this "11th Commandment" that Reagan sort of codified. Is there anything that`s improper in the way you`ve watched this campaign? Is either side, Clinton or Obama, getting a little too dirty for you?

    DEAN: Chris, four years ago, my opponents got together and had a political action committee, all four of which contributors contributed to the thing, which morphed me into Osama bin Laden. So this is pattycake. This is a tough campaign between two well--well-spoken, smart people, either of whom is capable of being president of the United States. But this is not, by and large, out of bounds.



    Parent
    You still don't understand. (none / 0) (#139)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:43:44 AM EST
    stop and think for a minute! (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Kensdad on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:28:24 PM EST
    excluding FL and MI is not an option.  it would only take a tiny percentage of pissed off voters in those states to switch from dem to repub in the general election to cause the dem to lose...  if they are excluded, the dems will lose FL and MI in the GE.  period.

    As a rough guess (none / 0) (#79)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:53:43 PM EST
    how many pissed off African-Americans do you think you will have if the DNC changes its rules in order to oust Obama?  

    You think that the Democrats have a shot of winning if they turnoff the AA vote?  

    And no it is not the same thing with women for Hillary. Even assuming that not changing the rules would upset women, they are not nearly as likely to abandon the party over this.

    Parent

    They didn't get upset when the rules (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by ivs814 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:05:38 PM EST
    were NOT enforced for South Carolina so how is that fair?  Threats of "pissed off" anybodys only serves to remind me of the thuggish Republican behavior we saw in Florida in 2000.  The rules are the rules so punish all them;IA, NH, SC, FL and MI.  Or better yet, none of them.  Seat the delegates already.


    Parent
    I have no idea (none / 0) (#86)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:07:21 PM EST
    what you are talking about.  What rules in South Carolina are you talking about?  

    I will be voting for the Democrat in November.  I have said this countless times.

    Parent

    When SC NH and IA put their Primaries and (none / 0) (#92)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:13:09 PM EST
    Caucus to be before Fl and MI they also violated the DNC rules.

    Parent
    SC primary was before Super Tuesday (none / 0) (#93)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:15:32 PM EST
    and that is why FL and MI are being punished. So why not SC? Btw, I've heard the answers, and they don't address the essential unfairness of this -- of how it would look, saying that a state that went for one candidate is free and clear but states that went for another get disenfranchised. It's a debacle.

    Parent
    You're kidding right? (none / 0) (#96)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:27:06 PM EST
    This is so ridiculously absurd I don't even know where to begin.

    The time to change things was BEFORE the elections not after.  If Hillary or her supporters wanted to negate South Carolina they should have said so BEFORE their RECOGNIZED primary.

    This is nothing more than results driven rationalization.  The FACTS are that BEFORE any election Florida and Michigan's delegates were stripped from them.  Hillary didn't say boo about it and as a matter of fact pledged to respect the DNC's decision.  Why?  Because she didn't want to piss off New Hampshire and Iowa that's why.  

    Parent

    I didn't realize Hillary had the power to (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by ivs814 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:20:11 PM EST
    negate elections.  With that kind of power you would have thought she would have "negated" all those mob caucuses that are grossly undemocratic.

    Parent
    Tell that to (none / 0) (#124)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 06:27:05 AM EST
    Florida Resident who seems to think that the candidates are the ones who get to decided these things.

    Parent
    But you see the rules are rules or so you (none / 0) (#100)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:30:30 PM EST
    have stated before.  So now it's Hillary fault because she did not want to disenfranchise SC IA and NH.  No the fact is that the rules were violated they were unevenly applied and the Democratic party may have to pay the consequences come Nov.

    Parent
    No, I am not kidding -- and you are (none / 0) (#116)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:53:20 PM EST
    really bad at this.  Don't claim to be a rules guy and then not know how the rules were evaded, only to then say it's okay because that primary was RECOGNIZED . . . by the same DNC.  And I suppose you don't know now that the DNC rules actually were like those of the GOP, to award only half the delegates -- but the DNC changed that late in the game, too.

    Your absurdities here, where you have been through this before and before, make you suspect.  Bye.

    Parent

    Yeah I understand this game (none / 0) (#123)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 06:25:45 AM EST
    It is an attempt to justify an ex post facto change of the rules by pointing out other technical violations of the rules.

    The problem for you is that Michigan and Florida intentionally violating the spirit and letter of the rules whereas South Carolina, Nevada, and New Hampshire were making a technical violation of the rules as a reaction to Florida and Michigan.

    And yes I do understand what the normal punishment was.  And I don't really know why they went with such extreme punishment.  But it doesn't matter.  Both candidates agreed with the punishment.  The full DNC agreed with the punishment.

    Just because it would help your candidate doesn't mean it should be changed.

    Parent

    If I recall (none / 0) (#140)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:47:57 AM EST
    the DNC authorized the South Carolina primary, as well as Iowa and New Hampshire.

    So if anyone thinks the "rules" were violated with those states, then perhaps they ought to cite them.

    "Rules" are not something you invent after-the-fact. They were the things that all candidates, including Clinton, agreed to in 2007.

    Parent

    If I recall (none / 0) (#141)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:48:18 AM EST
    the DNC authorized the South Carolina primary, as well as Iowa and New Hampshire.

    So if anyone thinks the "rules" were violated with those states, then perhaps they ought to cite them.

    "Rules" are not something you invent after-the-fact. They were the things that all candidates, including Clinton, agreed to in 2007.

    Parent

    I Am So Sick of Being Blackmailed (5.00 / 5) (#110)
    by BDB on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:14:06 PM EST
    I'm tired of hearing how terrible it's going to be if somehow Obama doesn't get the nomination (and you can bet if he isn't the nominee, folks are going to accuse Clinton of stealing it no matter what).  You know what?  If Obama and his people choose to divide the Democratic party, there's nothing I can do about that.  That's their choice, not mine.  

    And yes, I would put this on Obama because the only way African Americans or any other group of Obama supporters split the party is if he tells them to or is silently encouraging of it.   He has the power to keep that from happening and I expect him to be a good Democrat and do just that if he isn't the nominee.  If he is unwilling to do that then he is unfit to be the Democratic nominee.

    As for African Americans, generally, I don't think the average African American is going to bolt the party if votes from Michigan and Florida - which include African American voters - get counted.  Several African American civil rights leaders, including Julian Bond, have already asked Howard Dean to ensure that those voters are not disenfranchised.  

    And I might add that all of these threats about African Americans start to sound a little racist, as if we can count on those nice white women to behave themselves but you never know what those black folks are going to do.  Gee, given that Obama and Clinton have remarkably high positive ratings among the vast majority of Democrats, I presume the vast majority of Democrats will follow their lead and unite behind the nominee.

    Parent

    Well put. These threats really do not (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:48:10 PM EST
    work well for Obama, coming from his supporters. They are not transcending race, are they now, to keep claiming that all AAs will act as a bloc. That is, in its way, disgracefully racist to say.

    Parent
    And yet (none / 0) (#142)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:55:16 AM EST
    I've seen a number of comments in this thread alone threatening to leave the party if ... (fill in the blank, but they all involve Clinton not getting the nomination).

    I think that the Party has made the logical decision that the winner of the pledged delegates is going to be nominee, and that winner is Obama. What is happening now is housekeeping. They are trying to resolve it prior to the convention. If it goes to the convention she still won't win. But a convention fight will be messier and would probably hurt the Dems in the fall.

    Parent

    I thought this wasn't about race? (none / 0) (#80)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:55:25 PM EST
    It isn't for me (none / 0) (#84)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:05:06 PM EST
    But it would utterly foolish to ignore the racial impact.

    I'm not making some sort of threat.  This is basic reality.  In a country where AAs have continually been denied the right to vote, among many other civil rights desecrations, you have to consider the very real possibility that they will feel betrayed if they feel the rules were changed or backroom shenanigans decided the nominations.

    I think most here know this to be true even if they won't discuss it.

    Parent

    But you make it sound like the AA population (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:10:58 PM EST
    are a bunch of little kids who will not play if their man is not the chosen one.  Being that the AA population has been one of the most loyal in the Democratic base that sounds bad.  Also how do you think Obama won in the northern part of Fl in those primaries if it wasn't for the AA vote which is very big in Democratic primaries in this area of the State.  A big chunk of the 1.7 million Democrats who voted were black.

    Parent
    No I'm not (none / 0) (#94)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:23:23 PM EST
    you are characterizing my statements as such.

    I don't think they are going to throw a tantrum if Obama loses per se.

    I believe they are going to feel betrayed by the party IF, IF, IF the DNC decides to seat Fl and MI as is and that leads to Hillary getting the nomination.  

    Chris Bowers says that Hillary would get a 79 delegate swing if Michigan were seated as is.  79 delegates.  To put that into context, Hillary got a 40 point swing from NEW YORK!  

    How would you feel if the DNC arbitrarily decided to double Illinois' delegate count?  Do you think you think you might feel a little betrayed?  Now imagine having a history of voter repression and intimidation tactics design to prevent your voice from being heard.

    This is not some pie in the sky theory and this is not some example of AAs being petulant.  

    Seat Florida and Michigan as is and you could literally see riots in Denver.  

    FTR, I'm not advocating that they be ignored.  But so far neither state has even tried to devise a delegate count that could be more palatable to Obama and his supporters.  As of right now Michigan plans to bring 80 Clinton delegates, 76 unpledged delegates, and 1 Obama delegate.  1.  

    Parent

    again (none / 0) (#97)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:27:28 PM EST
    you make it sound as if they are some kind of uncontrollable mob

    Seat Florida and Michigan as is and you could literally see riots in Denver.

    Then you say I am misinterpreting you?

    Parent

    Having fun? (none / 0) (#98)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:29:42 PM EST
    Where did I say anything about uncontrollable mobs.  

    It's not like riots have never occurred at a DNC Convention, you know.

    I doubt riots will occur.  But you can't just change the rules.  The DNC knows this and there is no way they will seat the delegates as is UNLESS the nomination has somehow been decided already.  Not. A. Chance.

    Parent

    Since when... (none / 0) (#102)
    by kredwyn on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:31:50 PM EST
    When was the last time you saw a controlled mob rioting?

    Parent
    I'd like to see one of those (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:34:01 PM EST
    Me too... (none / 0) (#105)
    by kredwyn on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:42:22 PM EST
    I've always thought that the definitions of riot and mobs included an "uncontrollable" factor.

    Parent
    it would be the AA population who will riot.  And if you know about the Chicago riots they had nothing to do with the primaries and a lot to do with other things.

    Parent
    Florida, (none / 0) (#144)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:59:35 AM EST
    you can rest assured. There will be no mobs because the delegations from the faux primaries will not be seated and the majority of the superdelegates will vote for Obama. It's over.

    Parent
    It's not even close to over... (none / 0) (#158)
    by kredwyn on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:51:25 AM EST
    as far as the primaries and superdelegates go.


    Parent
    Riots? (none / 0) (#101)
    by kredwyn on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:30:36 PM EST
    You're threatening riots? In Denver?

    Sorry...I just don't see riots happening.

    Parent

    I'm not threatening anything (none / 0) (#127)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:07:56 AM EST
    as I have said REPEATEDLY.

    Please, people, read what is written.

    Parent

    When you say something like... (none / 0) (#143)
    by kredwyn on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:58:08 AM EST
    "Seat Florida and Michigan as is and you could literally see riots in Denver."
    you are definitely insinuating the possibility of riots...even threatening that they might happen.

    Protests...I'd understand. Riots? Those imply fires, rock throwing, fights, and a whole bunch of violence. And you've effectively suggested, stated, implied, promised, threatened that they will happen in Denver if X happens.

    Parent

    It's called (none / 0) (#157)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:50:29 AM EST
    observation.  Threats would mean that if you did not comply in some way then I would somehow be able to implement the consequences.

    That is obviously not a possibility.  

    It is an extreme consequence obviously and unlikely.  My point was simply to understand that actions have consequences. I can assure you that the DNC understands this.

    Parent

    If the DNC understood that (none / 0) (#159)
    by kredwyn on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:54:56 AM EST
    actions have consequences, they would've thought about this whole thing through a lot further than they did.

    Parent
    A onsequence... (none / 0) (#160)
    by kredwyn on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:59:53 AM EST
    was a mailer that my parents received: "The Democrats in Washington are out of touch," the mailer reads in part. "Now -- thanks to their egos and political in-fighting -- yes, as a Florida Democrat, may lose your vote."

    Other boldface reminders: "No delegates. No votes." "Because of the Democrat rules, Democratic presidential candidates say they won't campaign in Florida--they'll only raise money here." link

    Parent

    kredwyn (none / 0) (#145)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:00:40 AM EST
    No riots, unless you plan on leading one on behalf of the defeated H. Clinton.

    Parent
    Since I'm not in either of the two camps... (none / 0) (#156)
    by kredwyn on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:49:35 AM EST
    and don't live near Denver any longer, that prolly won't happen.

    After seeing bits of Belfast burn during a recent Marching Season, I just don't consider the threat/promise/suggestion of uncontrollable violence to be a viable option.

    Parent

    in a word, yes. (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by cpinva on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:44:41 PM EST
    You think that the Democrats have a shot of winning if they turnoff the AA vote?  

    let me repeat, for those with short-term memory loss:

    AA's, while certainly an important and valued democratic constituency, constitute a mere 12% of the total population. white women outnumber the entire AA population by themselves.

     as well, the greatest density of the AA population is situated in the southeast. specifically, in those states which have gone republican in the past few presidential campaigns, since at least reagan in 80.

    statistically, this is not likely to change radically, regardless of who the democratic nominee is, the increased AA vote notwithstanding. while the loss of AA votes would certainly be unfortunate (and shooting themselves in the foot), it wouldn't be the overwhelming catastrophe that some would have us believe.

    you conveniently overlook another, much larger minority constituency that has thus far provided a bulwark of support for sen. clinton: the hispanic community. in florida, hispanics outnumber AA's by about 2-1. excepting the miami cuban hispanic community (disproportionately loud for its actual size) florida hispanics have traditionally voted democratic.

    many more hispanics came out to vote in the florida mis-primary than had previously as well. i suspect they'll make up, in large part, for the loss of many AA's, should obama not be the nominee.

    all of which leads me to the comment i was originally going to make. in all the talk by howard dean and other DNC grand poobahs, they've conveniently glossed over the potential disenfranchisement of close to 3 million democrats (FL & MI), none of whom had anything to do with the premature scheduling of their state's respective primaries. and yet, SC seems to have been given a free pass.

    how, exactly, do dean and the rest of the DNC square that with the concept of "following the rules"?

    cpinva (none / 0) (#146)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:06:41 AM EST
    Are you saying that more than half of the Democrats will stay home, give up their reproductive rights as well as everyone's civil rights because Clinton wasn't nominated despite the fact that she didn't have the majority of pledged delegates? Or that the DNC didn't change the rules she agreed to after the fact in order to hand her more delegates?

    Anyway, if you do walk, I would suggest the Green Party. I think that they may even have a woman candidate at the top of their ticket.

    Parent

    Florida wants a pony not a primary (1.00 / 1) (#61)
    by joejoejoe on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:20:37 PM EST
    Who pays for a new Florida primary (or 1/2 primary per your plan)?

    [cricket noise, cricket noise]

    I don't see Crist moving forward to authorize state money to pay for a new primary, I see him issueing a grandstanding press release that helps John McCain. And the Florida Democratic Party chair Karen Thurman isn't interesting in solving problems, she wants Howard Dean to peel her a grape.

    FL Democratic Party chairwoman Karen Thurman:
    "It is important also that we are clear about one issue. At this time, no suggested alternative process has been able to meet three specific and necessary requirements: the full participation from both candidates, a guaranteed commitment of the millions of dollars it will cost to conduct the event and a detailed election plan that would enfranchise all Florida Democrats, including our military service members serving in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

    The Florida Democratic Party cannot consider any alternative that does not meet these requirements. Indeed, it is very possible that no satisfactory alternative plan will emerge, in which case Florida Democrats will remain committed to seating the delegates allocated by the January 29th primary."

    Howard Dean called Crist's bluff, said 'go ahead, hold a new primary that conforms to DNC rules' and Karen Thurman moves the goalposts yet again. The Florida Democratic Party leadership isn't interested in resolving this situation. They're still issuing ultimatums.

    I accuse the Florida Democratic Party leadership of bad faith in this entire process -- FL Dem. chair Karen Thurman, Sen. Nelson, Rep. Wasserman-Schultz, Rep. Alcee Hastings, Rep. Corinne Brown. I've seen FL Democratic chairwoman Thurman make clear misstatements on FL TV where she's said she had 'assurances from Speaker Pelosi's people' that the delegates would be seated, only to have Speaker Pelosi say the exact opposite. And all the other elected officials (Nelson, Wasserman-Schultz, C.Brown, Hastings) are part of the Clinton campaign and acting in that capacity, not on behalf of all Florida Democratic Party members.

    I'm tired of the entire double game that Florida Democratic leaders are playing, saying one thing to the national press, saying another to the Florida press, all the while putting their thumb on the scale for the Clinton campaign. It's time to either submit a plan that conforms to DNC rules or accept the fact that the gambit to mute a Jan. 29th Obama win in South Carolina blew up in your cheating faces.

    Dean has given FL option after option to solve this problem include an offer of DNC funds to help defray the cost of a contest that would meet DNC rules. The first excuse was there was a property tax measure on the Jan. 29th ballot that was too important to delink from the primary. I can't even count what excuse we are on now from Karen Thurman. But somehow it always ends up 'Seat the delegates from the beauty contest for Clinton'. Gee, I wonder how that could be?

    I donated to the DNC, and I don't want (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:10:34 PM EST
    millions of dollars going to fix its stupid mistakes when our donations were supposed to go for getting the White House and Congress. This is one of the reasons, of several this season, I decided to do no more donations to the DNC -- or to a lot of other Dems who have proven to be fools and are blowing our chance to win.

    Parent
    That's how we voted. (none / 0) (#77)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:51:11 PM EST
    It was a fair, peaceful election.

    Over 1,700,000 happy and patriotic  Democrats marching to the polls, casting their votes.

    Parent

    The DNC has resolved the problem (none / 0) (#147)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:08:11 AM EST
    They told Michigan and Florida to come up with primaries.

    Parent
    Don't worry....Be happy (none / 0) (#1)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:40:40 PM EST
    It will all go away....

    That's a plan (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:51:22 PM EST
    A bad one.

    Parent
    Yeah, but (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by oldpro on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:54:49 PM EST
    we're really really good at bad plans...when we have plans at all...

    Parent
    It appears to be Dean's (none / 0) (#12)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:03:44 PM EST
    plan....

    But to try to force a do-over election on a state might be more offensive than letting the states have some say in the process......If Mich and Fl come up with their own plans, it will go down better....A Dean-imposed plan might be rejected as illegitimate.....Or so the thinking appears to be....

     

    Parent

    The word from the other Todd (none / 0) (#18)
    by vigkat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:18:48 PM EST
    The one on MSNBC, is more positive respecting Dean's statement.  My impression was that Dean wants to find a resolution to the issue.  Todd pointed out, however, that it was unlikely Florida would hold a new primary because the state cannot afford it, and that it was more likely that any revote would be by caucus.  That would probably benefit Obama.

    Parent
    A caucus? (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by sonya on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:25:42 PM EST
    I think Florida democrats who cast their votes in good faith in a primary may have a problem with a "do-over caucus."  I know I would.  

    Parent
    I would hope Florida would reject such a plan (none / 0) (#28)
    by vigkat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:36:10 PM EST
    I should emphasize that the pundit appeared to be speculating as to how a revote would go when he said this.  I don't think it reflects Dean's position or words.  Apparently there is a lot of activity around this issue right now, with an attempt to find a resolution by everyone involved.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#36)
    by hookfan on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:44:51 PM EST
    A caucus would just lead to more issues about disenfranchisement in a state that has already had more than enough "dis" regarding voting as it is. But a primary has the added problem of who pays? As well as the questions of open or closed. what a mess.

    Parent
    Open or Closed (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Coral Gables on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:48:36 PM EST
    There is no question there. Florida only has closed primaries.

    Parent
    Ok. And (none / 0) (#55)
    by hookfan on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:15:19 PM EST
    do the normal rules still apply to the potential negotiated rules for a second primary after the traditional primary has already been held? Or does Obama have some leverage for negotiating for an open primary, where he would most likely perform better? What are the rules for the new primary?

    Parent
    I would think... (none / 0) (#69)
    by reynwrap582 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:39:14 PM EST
    It would have to be a closed primary if the previous one was closed.  Otherwise you'd have republicans being able to vote both in the previous republican primary (which half counts) and then the democratic party re-do.

    Parent
    Florida Caucus? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Coral Gables on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:34:06 PM EST
    The Florida Dem primary in January had about 1,684,0000 voters even when told their vote wouldn't count. It's not possible to have a caucus. The state has never had a caucus. They wouldn't know where to start. It's a regular primary, a vote by mail, or take it to the committee at the convention.

    Parent
    If the FLA governor offered (none / 0) (#27)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:36:09 PM EST
    to hold another primary then the Florida Dems need to get that primary planned.

    Parent
    I didn't hear anything to indicate (none / 0) (#34)
    by vigkat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:41:11 PM EST
    Any such offer had been made.  My impression is that there is a lot of discussion about how a revote could be achieved.  There was recognition that Florida probably could not afford to hold a new primary.  Perhaps other alternatives are being discussed.  Watch the Olbermann show tonight.  That's where the discussion I'm summarizing took place, between KO and Todd (sorry, I can never remember his last name).

    Parent
    Actually the Governor has said (none / 0) (#38)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:47:43 PM EST
    he would back another Primary.  You see he puts our money where his mouth is.  He has to make the Republicans happy too..  He'd like to be considered for VP with McCain.

    Parent
    Actually.... (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Coral Gables on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:49:57 PM EST
    He said he would back it. He never said the state would pay for it.

    Parent
    Jennifer Granholm (none / 0) (#58)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:17:45 PM EST
    said she does not want to pay for it.  Suggested a "firehouse" vote.

    Parent
    what is a firehouse vote? n/t (none / 0) (#67)
    by litigatormom on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:33:21 PM EST
    Firehouse vote (none / 0) (#81)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:55:49 PM EST
    All firehouses are open all day and Democrats go to the nearest firehouse and cast their vote.

    I don't know if there ever has been one but that was Granholm's suggestion.

    Parent

    Problem is our polling place is 6 miles from me (none / 0) (#82)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:58:20 PM EST
    nearest firehouse is about 20-25 as the crow fly.

    Parent
    How do you prove that you are voting (none / 0) (#95)
    by litigatormom on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:25:32 PM EST
    at the firehouse nearest your house?  What if you live equidistant between two firehouses?  What if your nearest firehouse is in a different town?

    Sounds like a recipe for lawsuits alleging fraud. All you need is chad and you've hit the trifecta.

    Parent

    Florida (none / 0) (#75)
    by americanincanada on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:46:59 PM EST
    is also suggesting that only people who were registered democrat at the time of the first primary be allowed to participate. They have no intention of letting repubs and indys stack the deck by being 'dems for a day'.

    Parent
    So if there is a redo (none / 0) (#39)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:48:02 PM EST
    and the  vote comes in lower....even a few hundred thousand, how is that fair when we already did it and had the highest turnout ever recorded?

    Parent
    The states did have a say. (none / 0) (#148)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:13:58 AM EST
    Conform to the Party rules or don't be counted. Party officials in both states (the Florida move was bipartisan, folks; look it up) said that they'd rather have early primaries in violation of the rules made by the DNC and agreed to by all candidates, including CLINTON, in 2007.

    If you are a Clinton Dem in either Michigan or Florida you do have a right to be angry, but not at Obama. Why aren't you angry at your state parties for doing this to you? Or why aren't you angry at CLINTON who agreed to cut off your vote?

    At least Obama and the other candidates haven't been hypocrites on this. Why would you not hold Clinton responsible? Let me guess. Because you are a Clinton supporter.

    Parent

    Pick Flick! (none / 0) (#10)
    by annabelly on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:01:53 PM EST
    Okay, this IS on topic, I promise.

    So my hubby and I just rewatched the movie Election for kicks, thinking it would funny during the campaign season. But it turns out to be a near perfect analogy to the Dem race. We decided Mr. McAllister was Howard Dean, and the two votes he trashed to throw the race to the jock were analogous to MI and FL.  If you've seen it, you know what I mean. Hilarious.

    Speaking of which . . . . (none / 0) (#46)
    by blueasthesky on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:53:19 PM EST
    Did you see this one, from Slate?  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rleUPHX8yfM

    Parent

    Buck passing, yes ... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:17:47 PM EST
    But he went on record with two things:

    One, he hasn't shut the door on new contests in Michigan and Florida.

    And, two, he suggests that a seating of the delegates by the credentials committee would be following DNC rules.

    Both of these things may have always been true, but Dean has never so clearly stated them.

    The Dean Rules (none / 0) (#20)
    by Coral Gables on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:22:28 PM EST
    It is clear that both states can legally have a new primary. It would be nice however if the powers that be work towards a resolution that includes the votes of the people prior to a meeting of the rules committee at the convention.

    Parent
    BTD, what is your sense of who (none / 0) (#23)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:31:05 PM EST
    the DNC leadership sees as the most viable candidate? And what's their rationale?

    Parent
    From previous posts here, it appears (none / 0) (#53)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:09:05 PM EST
    the DNC's candidate is Obama.

    Parent
    Exactly. (none / 0) (#149)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:15:32 AM EST
    Which votes of what people? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:38:38 PM EST
    Not the faux primaries back in January.

    Parent
    Howard Dean must be an Obama fan (none / 0) (#44)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:50:09 PM EST
    with that plan.  Any of his plans; seat half the delegates, do it over.

    Phffff

    Parent

    I don't think (none / 0) (#150)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:16:40 AM EST
    that Dean is necessarily an Obama fan. Obama is the pledged delegate winner. He's not going to do anything to prolong the agony.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Coldblue on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:29:14 PM EST
    "Through all the speculation, we should also remember the overwhelming enthusiasm and turnout that we have already seen, and respect the voters of the ten states who have yet to have their say.
    Dean has lost me. 1.7 million Florida voters...

    Keep topic on topic (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:00:54 PM EST
    I just deleted 3 off topic comments.

    I don't understand (none / 0) (#52)
    by Josey on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:06:43 PM EST
    my comment was about the delegates.


    Parent
    Your lack of understanding (none / 0) (#151)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:18:02 AM EST
    is off-topic. Censorship is the ultimate off-topic thingie.

    Parent
    Obama and Florida (none / 0) (#56)
    by jeffrey78 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:16:16 PM EST
    In his typical George W Bush style, Barack Obama has smugly dismissed the millions of votes cast in tonight's Florida democratic primary. This dismissive attitude hearkens back to his attempt to frame himself as the winner in Nevada due to having gained one delegate more than Clinton, despite Clinton's clear win with the majority of the votes. In eight years W hasn't been able to convince us that delegates are more important than the votes of individual citizens, and neither will Barack Obama.

    See: Obama Loses Bigtime in Florida


    and speaking of the 2000 election... (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by tandem5 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:30:28 PM EST
    I can't get over the irony of Donna Brazile's actions in these matters.

    Parent
    Obama (none / 0) (#152)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:22:16 AM EST
    or more precisely his campaign didn't dismiss anything, though it is understandable that a Clinton supporter would want to make this personal.

    Repeat, it said that this was a problem between the DNC and the state parties.

    Granted, Clinton may have a problem since she agreed to the rules in December and now she and her supporters regret that decision. Perhaps it should be chalked up as part of her 35 years of experience. As Tim Hardin once sang: Don't make promises you can't keep.

    Parent

    Jesse Jackson, Jr. has spoken. (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:20:34 PM EST
    He is not signing on to BTD's plan:

    HUFF POS JJJR

    He thinks the FLA primary was (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by litigatormom on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:42:19 PM EST
    "uncontested" because the candidates didn't physically campaign there?  He thinks that the votes aren't legit because the voters formed their views of the candidates based on what was happening next door in SC, what was on TV, what they read in the paper?  He thinks 1.7 million voters showed up for an uncontested primary that didn't matter?

    I can understand saying that MI was "uncontested," or at least unfair, even though Obama and Edwards took their names off the ballot strategically.  But FLA? Everyone was on the same footing. People came out to the polls in droves.  Tell people in FLA it didn't count, and now they should figure out how to have a caucus?

    They do that and Nader will get a lot more than 90,000 votes in FLA this time 'round.

    Parent

    Well, J J Jr. sd. FL shouldn't think (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:44:57 PM EST
    Obama wouldn't care about them in the GE.  Isn't that enough already?

    Parent
    Yes , He Will Reach Out To Them When (none / 0) (#122)
    by MO Blue on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:30:37 AM EST
    he is the nominee. I'm sure that will work. He will go to FL and MI and convince them that he is sooooo awesome that they really don't mind that he disenfranchised them.

    Bond to work like a charm (for the Republicans).

    Parent

    Disregard Jesse Jackson (none / 0) (#153)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:23:57 AM EST
    He is only a pawn of the oligarchy, much like Gloria Steinem. They are injected into the public discourse in order to divide constituencies.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#109)
    by BDB on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:05:52 PM EST
    But he wants to assure the voters of Florida and Michigan that even though Obama is going to fight to keep their votes from counting, it's not personal.  They may think this is about their votes and they may think it's because their votes do not benefit Barack Obama, but nothing could be further from the truth.  It's about Obama's love of the rules.

    Parent
    I love that ObamaintongPost doesn't even (none / 0) (#120)
    by LatinoVoter on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:30:05 AM EST
    pretend to be impartial. They allow the Obama camp to post propaganda accusing Hillary of trying to steal the election.

    The only thing that made reading that piece of tripe worthwhile was reaching the comments section and coming across this comment

    I never thought I would see in my lifetime a Jackson actually argue for the disenfranchisement of voters.You should be ashamed of yourself.

    You are either are on the side of the franchise or not. You obviously have chosen political expediency over what is right and democratic.
    -Serfie



    Parent
    There's a couple things I don't get... (none / 0) (#91)
    by reynwrap582 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:12:07 PM EST
    First, Obama can't really claim that the people who were for him didn't come out to vote because they knew it wouldn't count, since a glance at the election results shows that he did better in the election than all but 2 out of 25 polls projected in the two weeks prior to Florida (those were both Strategic Vision).  So the argument that Obama voters stayed home more than anyone else just doesn't wash.

    He didn't campaign in Florida?  Big deal.  Neither did anyone else.  But they get national news like everyone else, they get internet access like everyone else, and they get local news reporting on the election like everyone else.  That's where most people get their information on the presidential primaries.  At best it's a weak argument to say that it shouldn't count because he didn't campaign there (especially because he campaigned more than anyone else).

    I grew up in a town where I would have to drive at least 4 hours to see a presidential candidate in person.  Should my vote not count? I never got to see the candidate in person!

    I personally think it gets most sketchy for Obama when we're reminded that he said he would see to it that the Florida and Michigan delegations were seated if he were the presumptive nominee.  What kind of unity message is that?  I'll only respect their vote if it either benefits me, or if it can't hurt me?  I understand he's a politician, but this should remind everyone that he's a... POLITICIAN.  If he's doing so well that his campaign and surrogates are telling Hillary to drop out and that she's finished, shouldn't he be doing well enough to say that we ought to just seat them?  Again, I know, he's a politician.  I wish someone would tell -him- that.

    And $18 million to run a primary for 1.7 million people?  More than $10 per vote?  And there's no way to do some sort of absentee deal to registered democrats that would cost 41 cents for postage, a few cents to print a ballot, and a whole bunch of volunteers to staff the counting machines?  It seems iffy, as if Florida won't take re-do for an answer, and the DNC won't take seat-the-delegates for an answer either.  Who loses?  Floridians who just want to be counted as real Americans for once.

    By the way, if the DNC's worst nightmare is protests in Colorado or a brokered convention, then it's no wonder the Republicans get away with calling us weak.

    Get this, renwrap (none / 0) (#154)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:30:40 AM EST
    The argument isn't with Obama. It's with the DNC. If you're a Hillary supporter, it's with her too.

    So whether or not Obama would have done better is pure speculation. In just about every state where Obama has campaigned he has either closed any initial lead Clinton had or has won outright. His campaign involves people at the grassroots level organizing and getting out the vote. None of that existed in either state. Clinton, on the other hand, had a tremendous advantage in name recognition in January. Not so much now.

    We could argue about how an election would turn out now, but hypotheticals to justify past elections that don't count aren't part of the rules TO WHICH CLINTON AGREED IN 2007.

    The states know what they have to do to send delegates to the convention: Have authorized revotes.

    Parent

    If anyone thinks Clinton would agree to a Caucus (none / 0) (#119)
    by diplomatic on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:26:11 AM EST
    You're dreaming about a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

    And yet (none / 0) (#155)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:36:04 AM EST
    she agreed in 2007 that these faux primaries don't count.

    Besides, if the state of Florida and Michigan want to have caucuses, what say does she have? If she wants to try to prevent those, so be it.

    Clinton is a candidate, not a state official in Michigan or Florida. There is a real possibility that neither state can afford a full primary. If a caucus is their only choice, and Clinton fights to prevent them, then that will mean that she TWICE has supported a position denying those states delegates to the convention.

    Parent

    There are many rational, strategic voters. (none / 0) (#128)
    by scoutfinch on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:23:46 AM EST
    Yes, voter turnout for the Florida primary was high.  There was also a MAJOR property tax initiative on the ballot (and here in Dade County, the most populous, a controversial gaming initiative as well).

    Despite the fact that many voters are not rational actors, many people decide to vote strategically based on the system and the race as it looks at the time they vote. There are many, many people who voted for John Edwards after it was clear he could not win. Why? Probably in part to send the message that they wanted his issues included in the platform/GE campaign. Same with Huckabee on the Republican side. I also know Democrats who registered Republican for the Florida primaries so they could have some impact on who the GE candidates were, since we understood that Democratic votes would not affect the nomination.

    It's difficult to say how campaigning would have affected the outcome of the primary. Yes, there were ads. But Obama has consistently won over voters in person. On the other hand, if Obama and Hillary had a real debate about Cuba policy, perhaps her lead would have been even stronger. The point is that we don't know what would have happened had there been a contested election that the candidates and voters thought would impact the general election.

    To say that because many people voted the results necessarily reflect what the outcome of a true primary neglects the fact that both candidates and voters are entitled to make strategic decisions based on the rules at the beginning of the game.

    In an election this close, both seating delegates based on the January 29 primary and failing to seat Florida delegates are bad options.  The snowbirds are still here. We should revote.