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Is This True?

By Big Tent Democrat

Josh Marshall writes:

It's hard to say just what issues are responsible for the shift in momentum. It's hard to believe the NAFTA stuff hasn't played a role. The Farrakhan/Muslim/anti-Semitism stuff, which Clinton has pushed in concert with key press outlets, also probably plays a big role.

(Emphasis supplied.) I guess I missed it but I do not remember any Clinton campaign materials on Farrakhan, anti-semitism or Obama being a Muslim. Is Josh talking about Steve Kroft asking Hillary if Obama is a Muslim? Did Farrakhan and anti-semitism come up too? Anyone have any info on this? Do you know what Marshall is talking about?

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    It's not (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:57:55 AM EST
    true. But really, the media actually criticizing Obama for the first time EVER is what has turned the tide. This is ridiculous and Josh should be ashamed of himself for perpetuating this falsehood.

    So you know of nothing (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:59:35 AM EST
    that supports Josh's charges? Did we miss something?

    Parent
    Nope. (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:03:25 AM EST
    He's perpetuating DRUDGE reports and internet gossip. None of this is supported by anything at all. Other than his own delusions.

    Parent
    Is there a Drudge Report post (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:04:03 AM EST
    to that effect? I have not even seen that.

    Parent
    That is (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:07:21 AM EST
    what he's referring to with the "Muslim" part of the accusation. He rolled the Drudge post, the debate issue about Farrakahn, and anti-semitism all into one.

    Parent
    The garb was an (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:08:37 AM EST
    Obama is a Muslim thing? Really?

    And Russert's question was Clinton's doing?

    And what of the antisemitism thing?

    Parent

    The antisemetism thing? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:24 AM EST
    I don't get that one either. Unless it's a stretch of the Farrakhan thing.

    Parent
    I don't know (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:17:56 AM EST
    I am truly perplexed.

    Parent
    I have heard (none / 0) (#60)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:26:14 AM EST
    that Obama is specifically doing outreach to the Jewish community to persuade them that he is on their side.

    If I had to make an educated guess based on what is on the net (as opposed to what is true and what is not) I would say that the antisemitical charge stems from Obama's church and its pastor.  There have been many, many emails circulating with quotes from the pastor's sermons that are really alarming to a lot of folks who won't bother to find out whether or not they are true.  Also, there are a lot of rumors about open members of the Nation of Islam being on Obama's IL senate staff.

    The Nation of Islam is classified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

    Parent

    I Think That's The "Basis" (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by BDB on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:11:35 AM EST
    But I also think it's crap.  Obama is no anti-semite, at least publicly and in his policies (who can know anyone's heart and honestly I don't care so much about their heart, it's what they do and say that counts in politics).

    Parent
    oh, definitely crap (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:24:23 AM EST
    that was never an issue.  It's just like the night shirt rumor and the darkening of Obama's skin rumor--total conspiracy crap.

    You know, I really am surprised this is what the issue is today considering that last night on TDS, Clinton said she'd put republicans on her cabinet.  She went on to say that dems would first have to clean up the mess the repubs had made (meaning, I suppose, that she would do it in her second term, and maybe then it'd be a republican like Colin Powell before he compromised himself) but I totally assumed that the first part of her response would be the "lead" outrage today.

    Parent

    what the-- (none / 0) (#110)
    by kangeroo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:37:32 AM EST
    she said that?  okay, am i just being totally ignorant here, how common is it to appoint cabinet posts cross-party?

    Parent
    Bush had one Democrat (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by catfish on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:44:29 AM EST
    Transportation Secretary Norm Mineta.

    Parent
    there has been a tradition (none / 0) (#121)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:49:10 AM EST
    going back many administrations, can't say how many, to have one member of the other party in the cabinet.

    Parent
    A tradition going back many administrations? (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by plf1953 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:59:29 AM EST
    Aside from Cohen under Clinton and Mineta under Bush II, can you give me some other recent examples?

    Parent
    One other do not a tradition make (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by plf1953 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:07:45 PM EST
    in my book ...

    More like a rarity.

    Parent

    I'm not knowledgeble on this subject at all (none / 0) (#129)
    by tree on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:08:08 AM EST
    but it was mentioned quite recently (here?) that McNamara was a Republican.

    Parent
    Yes, McNamara was a Republican (none / 0) (#140)
    by esmense on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:06:19 PM EST
    Back to at least Eisenhower (none / 0) (#141)
    by DaleA on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:11:20 PM EST
    and may go back even further. The idea seems to be that having one opposite party appointment keeps the process honest.

    Parent
    My guess Alexrod has Josh on his blackberry (none / 0) (#180)
    by Salt on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 03:06:36 PM EST
    broadcast, but seriously, there is a change and its from what I can perceive white males rethinking after the debate, my good friend and his buddy who had not believed the country was ready for a female and no way intended to go for the girl in the race have switched late last week to Senator Clinton.  I'm not sure I understand the logic but he said he has "come to resent Obama" and his belief that Hillary can accomplish heath care, not sure how that translates but we are in Ohio and some of the commercials have been in poor taste I believe, one had rock music and applause with Obama saying he would end the Iraq war and then others are just creepy the personality adulation with Obama speaking of himself as a moment in time. Anyway a yuck factor is taking hold in an anti Obama camp and peevish behavior like yesterday press conference and the NAFA memo now really deadly to cute by far.

    Maybe it was the Farrakhan moment when he just changed and agreed with Senator Clinton so quickly and so now they believe the guy will roll over to just get along with anyone and accomplish nothing.  If you recall in the same debate his own list of his accomplishments in that were less than complimentary and it showed on his face.


    Parent

    No, not sure what he is talking about. Are you (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Angel on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:58:11 AM EST
    sure he knows?

    No (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:59:05 AM EST
    But thought maybe I missed something.

    Parent
    Have you asked Marshall? (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Josey on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:44:00 AM EST
    It's really funny (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:00:09 AM EST
    in a piece about the Clinton folks supposedly working the refs, he appears to get worked by the Obama people. Or this is just his mild Obama bias showing through.

    maybe next he'll tell us (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:00:44 AM EST
    that the Clintons intentionally made Obama blacker in their commercial .

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:01:59 AM EST
    Well, if Josh's standard are those of the dkos rec list welll  . .. .

    Parent
    some of the titles on DK rec list (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by Josey on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:53:14 AM EST
    seem straight from NewsMax.
    That place has really gone downhill.
    Now Obama supporters want him to win it all tonight so "everyone" can come together and we all prepare for the general.
    See?  all the mocking and bashing of Hillary currently on the front page and rec list - are to be ignored while we all join hands with Obama.

    Parent
    I thought I was reading (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:10 AM EST
    The Onion when I saw that.  Obviously it was meant as satire, wasn't it? no?

    Parent
    I have no idea (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:00:48 AM EST
    I am just wondering if I missed something.

    Parent
    When bad things happen (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:00:33 AM EST
    It's always because Clinton (or better: "The Clintons") are evil, soulless machiavellian monsters.

    Didn't you know that?


    So is therre any evidence (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:01:30 AM EST
    to the charge? Even weak evidence? I am trying to see if I missed something.

    Parent
    The weak evidence would be... (none / 0) (#181)
    by jr on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 05:30:52 PM EST
    ...the infamous "reject v. denounce" debate segment.  I don't know of anything stronger than that, though.

    Parent
    First I heard that Clinton was.... (5.00 / 8) (#9)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:01:21 AM EST
    ...working in concert with key press outlets. If she has that much media cooperation then I guess it was also her idea to let herself be ridiculed and mocked  24/7.

    Its reverse psychology don't you know (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by Marvin42 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:03:56 AM EST
    Its very clever and fiendish really. First you get the media to ACT completely biased against you, constantly run negative unflattering stories and commentary while giving your opponent a complete pass. You do this for months and months until you almost lose. Then, when no one is paying attention, YOU MAKE THEM STOP.

    See? Clever, huh?

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:02:21 AM EST
    I imagine (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:02:13 AM EST
    he is taking Drudge at his "word" that the Photo Phlap with Obama in tribal togs was planted by the Clintons.  Because, you know, the Clintons have been soooo good at controlling the press.

    Exactly. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:04:13 AM EST
    He's literally using Drudge as a valid source.

    Parent
    No, no, no (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by Lou Grinzo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:39:55 AM EST
    He's not using Drudge as a source, he's reaching across the aisle.  You know, the one that separates the reality based community from the people who live on surreal estate.


    Parent
    But that report (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:05:06 AM EST
    has nothing to do with Farrakhan or antisemitism or even if Obama is a Muslim.

    You sure that is the reference?

    Parent

    That's exactly (none / 0) (#22)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:06:15 AM EST
    what I think the reference is. And the Farrakhan statement is based on the endorsement and the "renounce/reject" business from the debate. And the anti-semitism thing I assume from same.  

    Parent
    I concur, (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:09:37 AM EST
    and I base this on the fact that there is nothing new.  What we're seeing is a picking of the bones for more meat.  It's the kind of thing we've seen coming out of the Obama campaign as the polls and internals show a drift back to Clinton.

    I think it jibes with the rantings we saw from a certain diarist the other day, threatening that he knows some horrible Clinton-related stories he's been sitting on out of...respect?...but will soon unleash on the world.

    I thought some of them were sore winners, but it's even worse when they think they are going to lose.

    Parent

    Yeah. The Big Story (none / 0) (#156)
    by Daryl24 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:15:12 PM EST
    Any day now for the past 16 years the ultimate Clinton scandal will hit the fan. Stuff that makes the Turner Diaries look like, well the Turner Diaries only worst.

     

    Parent

    Russert asked the question (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:07:44 AM EST
    not Clinton. Not following the logic there.

    Parent
    Yes, the question came from Russert (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:11:31 AM EST
    but then Clinton didn't stand up and renounce and reject the Muslim question on 60 Minutes.

    Like I said--picking the bones here.  Of course Clinton is to blame, in the same sense that Obama was blaming Clinton for his Rezko scrutiny in the press conference yesterday.

    It's the basic premise of all great Westerns: in order for there to be a good guy, there has to be a bad guy, and for some blogs, the bad guy is always going to be the woman.

    Parent

    So now Hillary has to fight Obama's battles? (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by diplomatic on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:15:28 AM EST
    The 60 minutes thing is only making Obama supporters look overly concerned about the "Muslim thing"

    Obama is starting too look too much like he thinks there's something wrong with being a Muslim.  I hear him deny it all the time and reinforce he is a Christian but rarely (or ever) does he also point out that "even if I was a Muslim, that shouldn't matter."

    Parent

    absolutely! (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by left is right on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:32:31 AM EST
    While we (Muslims Americans) are not a substantial voting block, you have nailed a point that I have heard more and more often in the community.  Obama had rather strong Muslim support initially, but his reactions that come across like being a Muslim is a horrid accusation, without EVER using it as an opportunity to open positive discussion about Muslims or ask why it would matter, has turned off many of many Muslims, and they are switching their support to Hillary.

    Parent
    We must be mentally linked this AM (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by spit on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:10:24 AM EST
    it's started really bugging me, too. Initially, the responses were mildly annoying on that level, but it's really starting to chafe now. I'm not Muslim, but many of my neighbors are, and I've seen some of the discrimination they've had to deal with first hand.

    Not that the situations are really equivalent, but as a lesbian, it reminds me of all the times in the past I've watched people accuse each other of being gay and the response was almost always "Gross! No I'm not!". Hits me in the gut the same way.

    Parent

    This has bothered me for a long time (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by tree on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:25:49 PM EST
    He (or his campaign managers) have dealt with this whole thing in a very self-destructive way. By not making it crystal clear that, while he is not a Muslim, he doesn't see anything wrong with someone being a Muslim, he has missed a perfect chance to play up his unifier message, and he's pissed off American Muslims for no good reason. His reaction to the cultural garb is the same. His campaign acts as if IT thinks a real photo of him is somehow scary when the campaign whines about it allegedly coming from the Clinton campaign.

    All this fear on his part just makes it seem, in the minds of those who would be inclined to believe such rumors, that he must have something to hide, hence they'll leap to the conclusion that he must be a "secret" Muslim. If he'd just deny and clarify that being a Muslim is not a negative, and throw in a pitch for religious tolerance he could make the whole issue go away. Instead his  campaign's fearful response just eggs the issue on.  Why isn't he "bringing us together" on this? Just to get a few cheap shots in at Clinton? What a waste.

    Parent

    Exactly. (none / 0) (#131)
    by manys on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:10:56 AM EST
    "I'm not, but what if I was?"

    Parent
    Kathy (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by auntmo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:54:18 AM EST
    Heard on MSNBC  last  night  (take  that  with  a  grain of salt, of  course)    that   Drudge  himself  is  claiming  the picture  came  from  a  Clinton   lower-level  staffer.    

    But  I'm  not  a   Drudge  fan ,  by any  means.

    Josh  apparently  has  become  a  Drudge  believer  in   his  Obama  love  fest.   Yuk.

    Parent

    Drudge has not earned (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:25:24 PM EST
    the kind of journalistic respect that his reputation among the news media implies.  He may very well be a nice guy, but he hasn't met that standard in a long while.

    Parent
    Drudge actually said (none / 0) (#171)
    by ChrisO on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:14:06 PM EST
    that he "obtained" the e-mail, not that it was sent to him. And I think it's telling that he didn't release the entire text. It appears to me that someone in the Clinton campaign (if Drudge is to be believed) sent the e-mail to someone else, and it made its way to Drudge. The message of the e-mail concerned the unfair treatment Hillary gets from the press, which, through the lens of an Obama supporter, read something like "Hey, let's all spread the word that Obama's a Muslim, so we can win the election through slimy tactics!"

    In looking at the picture, it's eyecatching enough that I can beleive someone would send it to someone else with no intention of smearing Obama. Look at all of the stuff that gets e-mailed around every day. I'm mostly amazed that it took so long to get out.

    The bottom line is, no matter how much you want to show respect for your hosts, if you have a problem with people thinking you're a Muslim, don't have your picture taken in a turban. It's that simple.

    You wouldn't see Bush getting his picture taken with a dunce cap on, would you? Although I'm sure we can all sorta see the dunce cap when we look at his photos.

    Parent

    Was that (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:03:28 AM EST
    about Farrakhan or anti-semitism? I could see how you could wildly argue it has something to do with the be is a Muslim charge, though I would have thought that he would not make a charge like that based on that.

    Parent
    The stinkiest kind of ventriloquism (none / 0) (#155)
    by Ellie on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:13:35 PM EST
    Drudge blows it out his arse at sunrise and it wafts out of David Gergen's mouth in Prime Time. (From Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees, Aired February 25, 2008 - 23:00 ET)

    I'm including the comment from professional twit Gloria Borger, who gives a clinic on the gratuitous slams twits such as Borger hurl around simply because Sen Clinton is even running.

    GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: ... It's clearly an inconsistent campaign. She hasn't had one clear message. She's had three messages. One day she reaches over and she touches Barack Obama's arm. The next day she's saying, "Shame on you." The next day she's running as an experienced commander in chief. You know, it's difficult, Anderson, to win with one message, much less three messages. And I think, you know, this has all the trappings of a campaign that is having an internal argument about how to proceed because there isn't any clear direction. [...]

    Yeah, you go, Glo! Why can't she push -- in a cute little jingle -- the bombing of Iranian citizens, then canoodle with foaming at the mouth bigots like Rev. Hagee and then dispense slow-cooked conservative red meat at the Just Us Patriots BBQ and Schmooze like versatile John McCain?

    [cutting out Anderson "The Silver Fox" Kewper]

    DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: I agree very much with Gloria and everything she just said. The odd thing, Anderson, is that when you look at what Hillary Clinton has been saying on the stump the last three or four days, she's actually been giving some very good speeches.

    She's coming out fighting for the middle class, for people losing their jobs; they're effective. And she's holding on to a big lead still in Ohio. She's definitely not out of the game, but, you know, to go from the love fest at the end of that debate to the, as you say, the rant on Sunday, the angry rant on her part, and then the sarcasm on Monday.

    And now this ugly incident, which Matt Drudge says -- the disagreement is with Matt Drudge. Matt Drudge is saying that the Clinton staffers circulated this. But all that has obscured her basic message and it makes her campaign seem like a plane flying -- careening around in a bad storm.

    And in contrast, as Barack Obama answers these various charges, he seems like the calm and steady one. It does not, I think, help her campaign. I think it strengthens him. (... More schwah...)

    Amazingly, right and left pounced on this and assumed her guilty without even stopping to investigate. She was even castigated for not denying forcefully enough the propagation of an independently published, already-public photo which wasn't even offensive. (Who thinks it's offensive to wear local dress or otherwise honor a host?)

    And just to apply a bit of logic, why would HRC or a staffer confide in Matt Drudge of all people, the matrix for every revolting, wending, vining poison rumor that dogged fmr First Lady HRC and fmr. President Clinton for two terms, and continued at an insane pitch during her office as Senator?

    Despite the press still in sweetheart mode with Obama, this stank of dirty GOP tricks, as they're the ones who think having a middle name Hussein -- a common enough name -- is "bad" and in whose interest it is to malign both candidates.

    Parent

    Also the (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:05:19 AM EST
    "in concert with press outlets" line is laughable. The press that has had their knives out for her for 20 yrs and has stabbed her with them repeatedly in the last several months.

    I have seen no eviidence (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:05:51 AM EST
    of what Marshall has accused.

    Since I have virtually quit posting on the blogs to try to keep an eye on what is happening outside of the blogosphere, I think I would have noticed.

    This is a ridicuulous assertion until and unless there is a scintilla of proof. even then there must be more proof than simply saying it's so, or that some evil staffer (without name) or some group (again without name) allied to the Clintons has done this.

    The Farrakhan (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:07:24 AM EST
    stuff came from the debate. He should blame Russert for asking that question. I think it stretches belief to think that Hillary forced Farrakhan to endorse Obama.

    Why on earth Kroft asked Hillary about whether Obama was a muslim or not is beyond me. If he has such concerns then he should be asking Obama.

    So the theory is (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:09:39 AM EST
    Clinton forced Russert and Kroft to ask the questions they did?

    Is that really Josh's argument? Come on. There must be more to it than that.

    Parent

    Haven't you heard, Hillary is secretly (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:11:39 AM EST
    in control of the media.

    Parent
    No, seriously (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:28 AM EST
    There must be more to it than that.

    Parent
    I think it's Josh not reporting (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:14:28 AM EST
    but just saying what seems truthy to him.

    Birds of a feather with "Al Gore invented the internet."

    Yes, I think he's really gotten that bad.

    Parent

    Truthiness (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by BDB on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:20:02 AM EST
    Much of the Left blogosphere has been injected with truthiness where Hillary is concerned.  It sounds like it should be true, so they say it.  It's almost like they are moved by some sort of cultural force that they think they're immune from and don't recognize when they see it.

    Parent
    That's pretty bad (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:16:58 AM EST
    I have been looking (none / 0) (#45)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:15:33 AM EST
    and there doesn't seem to be anything NEW regarding the Farrrakhan/Muslim crap.  Has anyone else found other "evidence" of the Clintons controlling the media over this one?

    I suppose you could argue that the media has loved Obama so long and so hard that there must've been something outrageous that happened in order for the press to turn as they have.  And of course, it's easy to say that Clinton is to blame.  It's the same excuse Obama used yesterday.  Blame Clinton.

    Parent

    So as far as you know (none / 0) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:16:43 AM EST
    snark intended, this is nothing out there on this?

    Parent
    to the best of my recollection (none / 0) (#69)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:06:32 AM EST
    Frankly (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:07:22 AM EST
    I'm left shaking my head as to what Josh's point is. I think it's perhaps, like a poster above said, that he's taking Drudge's word, Russert's and Kroft's question and rolling it all into a ball and somehow blaming Hillary for it.

    I'm with you though. If he has evidence then he should show it. I would think that if there was a flyer then he would have a copy.

    Parent

    Josh is trying to not look stupid and failing (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by goldberry on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:08:16 AM EST
    He backed Obama strongly.  He senses that the energy has shifted somewhat.  The blogosphere made a big deal over some little "As far as I know" grace note on the end of a Hillary Clinton comment about Obama being a Muslim and they all freaked out.  They completely ignored all of the other stuff that preceded that comment.  So, how can I take anything Josh says seriously anymore?  
    And what's the big deal about being Muslim anyway?  If I were a Muslim American, I'd be pissed that one candidate is taking such pains to distance himself from me.  How does Keith Ellison feel about that?  It's just bizarre.  But if he is the nominee, he's going to get this crap every single day.  He'd better figure out a better response than unrighteous indignation.  No one is going to care.  

    So this is about (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:11:23 AM EST
    Clinton saying when asked by Steve Kroft that Obama is not a Muslim? I mean, that is what she said. I do not get it.

    Parent
    Is "I take him at his word" legalese? (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by catfish on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:42:06 AM EST
    I don't get the uproar over Hillary's 60 Minutes response, but there does appear to be a lot of it.

    Even David Gergen said Hillary left some "wiggle room" by saying "I take him at his word" referring to Obama not being a Muslim.

    Parent

    She and we only know (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by esmense on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:24:49 PM EST
    ...about Obama's personal faith based on what he has said. It was absurd for Kroft to ask Clinton what faith she "believed" Obama practiced. Why would she believe he practiced any faith other than the one he said he practiced?

    Parent
    Is he going to go all Aravosis on us (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:07:18 AM EST
    if Hillary wins Texas?! What is his problem with Clinton? I've read TPM for years, and I am positive that Hillary's politics are much more in line with Josh's than Obama's. Hell, JMM was one of the original liberal hawks---HE cannot be upset about the AUMF vote.


    Parent
    It Seems All About (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:08:24 AM EST
    The debate and Russert teaming up with Clinton demanding that Obama use the word reject over denounce.

    Pretty thin, I think Josh's bias is the story.

    Russert teamed up with Clinton? (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:00 AM EST
    She got him to ask that question? Really?

    Parent
    No But (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:15:57 AM EST
    He must have imagined that he was doing her a favor for once. She owes him big time now.  

    Parent
    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:25:14 AM EST
    Russert doing Clinton favors? I assure you that was NOT his intent.

    Strange interpretation from you Squeaky.

    Parent

    Snark Alert (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:22:19 AM EST
    In any case she owes him... Because of that question her polling numbers have gone up. (snark alert) Wasn't that the reason Josh made his claim in the first place. He was perplexed about HRC's surging poll numbers. His answer was the press has felt bad for being so mean to her all these years and now is giving her a leg up.

    Many here have argued a similar point, but for different reasons. Commenters have argued that the SNL skit helped HRC, and woke up the MSM to its bias.

    Parent

    Josh Marshall doesn't blame Tim Russert? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by diplomatic on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:07 AM EST
    Hmm I guess that would not get him invited to be on the panel for Meet the Press in the future if he did such a thing.  

    Remember kids: It's always the Clinton's fault.

    Typical Josh At This Point (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by BDB on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:25 AM EST
    He no longer substantiate things he writes about Hillary Clinton.  But he has no reason to because most of his readers will not demand it.  They'll demand it about others, probably even McCain, but not about Hillary.  Where Hillary is concerned Josh has the same standards found on conservative blogs.

    Like the she's demanding they fire Schuster (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by katiebird on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:16:51 AM EST
    flap?

    Josh even printed the memo as proof and the fact that it didn't say any such thing didn't stop him (Josh) from the claim that it did.

    Parent

    This is why I don't read TPM anymore. (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by Anne on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:04:36 AM EST
    They did excellent work on the US Attorney firings, but their campaign coverage has tended toward the sensational headline and willingness to make something out of rumor and innuendo, and taking a more stenographic role as opposed to a disinterested observer role.

    (Which leads me to say that BTD's and Jeralyn's concerted efforts to apply a more disinterested observer standard, even while disclosing their leanings, has allowed a more thoughtful and analytic discussion in the comments.  Finding lefty blogs that are not Obama or Hillary echo chambers is a lot harder than it should be.)

    Russert brought up Farrakhan, Obama responded, Clinton opined that she didn't think "denounce" was strong enough, and Obama eventually agreed.  I fail to see how it is a bad thing to get a candidate to take a harder line on bigotry; both of them - one as a person of color, and one as a woman - who know first-hand what bigotry and prejudice are all about, should be setting a very high bar on these issues.

    As near as I can determine, the Obama-in-native-garb pic was never proven to have come out of the Clinton campaign.  There was a lot of parsing and fly-specking of Drudge's story, but those should not be the standards for blaming one candidate or the other for anything.

    Sadly, what Josh has written is exactly the kind of thing he used to rake others over the coals for doing; it has been disheartening to see so many blogs and bloggers become the thing they got into blogging to be a voice and a force against.


    Parent

    I think in TPM's case (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by Virginian on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:14:33 AM EST
    and a number of other blogs, it is a illustration of blogs gaining an audience. Like Fox has an audience they pander too, so do many of the blogs, and their success and viability (both economically and in regards to relevance).

    In some respects its the "inmates running the prison," but specifically in regards to Josh, he sold out his  "above it all equal opportunity muck-racker" persona to don the "Mr. Popular" persona.

    Parent

    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:24:49 AM EST
    Not 100% sure about Josh pandering. Whatever his issue it, it seems genuinely his own. However, I've  felt for week that DKos has been pandering to all their new members by letting much of the foolishness go unchallenged. A form of passive pandering, if you will.

    Parent
    Ugh, I need to preview my posts. (none / 0) (#101)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:27:21 AM EST
    Sorry for all the typos. My wireless network is so slow during the day, I have been hitting post instead of preview just to save time.

    Parent
    Have you checked out the reader (none / 0) (#78)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:10:00 AM EST
    diaries at TPM? It is MUCH worse than Orange Republic.

    Parent
    is that even possible? (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by kangeroo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:40:07 AM EST
    Its been rather sad to watch his blog (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by Virginian on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    degrade over the last number of months in terms of its ability to cover the issues accurately...this is just the latest in a slow slide downhill for a guy who was being trumpeted as an example of what good investigative blogs could do positively

    Parent
    Josh does get at least some (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:57:45 PM EST
    critical feedback from readers on his anti-Hillary crap.  I responded to his request for opinions on the "60 Minutes" thing, as did someone else I know, saying that it was ridiculous and words to the effect that it smacked of Hillary Derangement Syndrome.  He emailed me back, "That's just whining."

    So that's his attitude these days, apparently-- email me if you agree with me, but STFU if you don't.

    Parent

    Interesting... (none / 0) (#161)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:32:12 PM EST
    ... you're not the first person to post about a rather snippy reply email from Josh.

    Parent
    BTD, didn't you get the memo? (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:30:13 AM EST
    Everything wrong or evil in this world is the Clintons' fault.

    It's raining?  Blame the Clintons.

    Have a headache?  Blame the Clintons.

    Your girl friend left you?  Blame the Clintons.

    The press corps still sells this fantasy every day.  The public hasn't believed it for years.

    Hmm... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by mindfulmission on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:50:04 AM EST
    Yea - I really don't know what Josh is talking about.

    I can think of two things:

    • The picture, and yes, I do think that the picture can perpetuate ignorant fears of Obama being a Muslim, even though the attire was not Muslim at all.

    • There is a story going around saying that someone from the Clinton campaign (I believe it was a volunteer phone banker) referred to Obama as Osama bin Laden on "accident."  I am not sure about the veracity of the story, but it could be another thing that Josh is thinking about.

    Now... I am not posting things to support Josh, as I believe that Josh is being more than foolish to claim that the Clinton camp is pushing any of the "Farrakhan/Muslim/anti-Semitism stuff."  I am just trying to point out what Josh may be thinking.

    what Josh is thinking (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by andrys on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:37:06 AM EST
    That would be instant faith in anything Drudge reports.

    As mentioned above, for details of the photo and its distribution, see this page which tells how it came to be and how it was distributed for the 2 days before Drudge reported it.

    Parent

    Throwing the kitchen sink at Clinton (none / 0) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:09:54 AM EST
    or scorched Clinton is the new TPM motto?

    That seems to be what you are saying.

    Parent

    maybe... (none / 0) (#94)
    by mindfulmission on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:21:14 AM EST
    ... I am more just trying to figure out what he is thinking.

    I know... that is a pretty dangerous thing to think about.

    Parent

    Josh Marshall (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by garage mahal on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:00:29 AM EST
    As for the garb photo, the Clinton campaign denied it and the only source for it is Drudge. Is that the new Josh Marshall standard?

    Keep in mind, Drudge never said the Clinton campaign sent HIM the email. He just said it had been "circulated". Marshall also knew the Clinton campaign never asked for Schuster to be fired. But, those are 2 things I literally heard at my water cooler based off horribly shoddy and deceptive reporting. Nothing new here.

    josh (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Turkana on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:03:44 AM EST
    must read the daily kos wreck list.

    sadly (5.00 / 5) (#80)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:11:27 AM EST
    what I think this type of story does is take some of the legitimacy out of the left blogosphere--and not just in relation to the media, but because many once-members of said blogosphere will have a hard time believing any new stories that are broken by the likes of TPM and Kos.

    It's the same thing that happened with Drudge, where the story becomes about the person writing it rather than the subject of the story.

    What this election cycle has shown us is that the majority of the left blogosphere has become just as biased and unreliable as the msm.  Even Alter manages to come up with some basis for his nasty attacks.

    And Jeffrey Rosen quotes Kathleen Williy! (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by jawbone on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:24:02 AM EST
    Somerby covered this yesterday at dailyhowler.com.

    ROSEN (3/1/08): Hillary Clinton's conduct during the Clinton impeachment does not inspire confidence in her respect for privacy. Kathleen Willey, one of the women who accused President Clinton of unwanted advances, charges in a new book that Mrs. Clinton participated in the smear campaigns against her. A federal judge found that the Clinton White House had ''committed a criminal violation'' of Ms. Willey's privacy rights by releasing her private letters. (An appellate court later criticized the judge's ''sweeping pronouncements.'')
    SNIP
    For the record, the unnamed federal judge to whom Rosen refers is the famous Clinton-trasher, Royce Lamberth. (Stephanie Mencimer: "During the 1990s, judge Royce Lamberth earned a reputation as a Clinton basher on par with independent counsel Ken Starr.") For some reason, the fact that Lamberth once accused "the Clinton White House" of something--and was "later criticized"--is presented here as evidence against Hillary Clinton. Go ahead--just try to explain that.

    Clinton Derangement Syndrome? Hillary Hate? What are these people thinking?

    Parent

    Does the name FLUFFY mean anything to you??? (none / 0) (#177)
    by Ellie on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:48:36 PM EST
    Willey's a personal fave among those with a bad case of CDS. I really hope her book is on remaindered audio when summer rolls around**, and she narrates, so that I might enjoy some shrieking good, quality hammock time.

    The Fox and Friends morning program detailed charges in the book that Willey's cat, Bullseye, was the victim of a targeted hit by a Clinton-hired henchman.

    "A man, he was pretending to be a jogger, he came up to me and just asked did I ever find my cat?" Willey told the New York Sun, who also picked up the cat story Wednesday. "He mentioned my cat by name and [said], 'Yeah, that Bullseye was a really nice cat.'" Willey told the Sun the abducted cat was part of an intimidation plan organized by the Clintons after she was called to testify in Paula Jones' sexual harassment suit against the president.

    "But it didn't stop there," said Fox News host Brian Kilmeade.

    "Does the name Fluffy mean anything to you?

    A year later she bought a cat, named it Fluffy. That cat ended up dead as well underneath the porch. She thinks somehow, and she claims somehow, the person who did this is linked back to Hillary."

    Willey appears to found her accusations on the word of conservative talk show host Melanie Morgan, who says she had a conversation in which a private investigator named Jack Palladino all but admitted to being the culprit in the cat business. "The only regret that I had about the whole thing was that Hillary did not pay me in a timely fashion," the P.I. allegedly said, according to Morgan's account. (Fox News airs bizarre claim that Hillary ordered hit on cats
    David Edwards and Jason Rhyne, Raw Story, November 7, 2007)

    Gosh, wonder why Melanie Morgan's station let her go.. (via Crooks and Liars)

    So long, farewell, auf weidersein good night, Mel. And don't let the door hitcha where the Good Lord splitcha. And in related insanity from Michelle Malkin (also via Crooks and Liars)

    I know she'll land on her feet.

    ::: eye wipe :::

    Mercy!

    **Heck, it's probably already remaindered and should fetch $0.25 on the lawn sale circuit by June.

    Parent

    I guess (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:14:19 AM EST
    It's the Obama rules and the Clinton rules rolled all together.

    You know Obama can't do no wrong and Clinton is the root of all evil.

    Josh Marshall & TPM . . . (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by Doc Rock on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:16:13 AM EST
    . . . lost its equilibrium and sense of balance to become an Obama noise box.  A remarkable fall from grace.  I can't read his blog any more.

    well, I agree with you, but there (none / 0) (#93)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:20:57 AM EST
    are many complaints in the comments over there about the pro-Hillary bias.


    Parent
    ?! it boggles the mind. (none / 0) (#119)
    by kangeroo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:46:58 AM EST
    two front battle (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by lily15 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:17:59 AM EST
    Real Democrats, who actually have principles, are fighting two fronts...the right wing and the Obama wing...both of them distort and outright lie to achieve their objectives. Because in their world view, the end always justify the means.  These lies need to be cataloged...and these liars exposed for what they really are...fake progressives.  Because pushing fake narratives is really a measure of their character after all.  Needless the say, the pushback from those who know what they are doing, needs to be vigorous. They should not go unpunished.

    Clinton has increased ad spending (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Prabhata on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:18:57 AM EST
    HRC has simply battled back with good ads.  Obama outspent her in WI 4 to 1 and was able to win easily.  That game is over.  HRC has received lots of contributions and has been able to counter Obama's campaign of words.

    Game Over? (none / 0) (#124)
    by plf1953 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:51:43 AM EST
    I hope not and I don't think so.

    Did you mean to say "game not over?"

    Parent

    Tabloid sells (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:21:51 AM EST
    that's all it is.

    I hope they're making skads of money this election cycle, because that's all they'll have now that they've sold their credibility.

    Did Josh Skip Journalism 101? (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by JoeCHI on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:32:57 AM EST
    Marshall just keeps embarrassing himself.  Sigh.

    Why are we even discussing this? (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by ChrisO on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:40:05 AM EST
    This isn't a criticism of BTD, but I find it amazing that a supposedly legitimte site like TPM (which has been my first read in the morning for quite a while) can make a blanket statement like that, and we are left to figure out what the hell he's talking about. I think it's beyond scurrilous to just throw out a charge like "The Farrakhan/Muslim/anti-Semitism stuff, which Clinton has pushed in concert with key press outlets," without feeling any obligation to back up the comment. Josh has really gone off the deep end. I think he's been reading too many of the Hillary hate comments on his site.

    If I had to guess... (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:29:33 PM EST
    ... without much evidence, which seems fashionable in the blogosphere, I'd say that most of the A-list bloggers read each other and reinforce their own viewpoints. Combined with their manifest disdain for the traditional news outlets, they quickly end up in an isolated echo chamber.

    TPM used to be a giant--huge not only in the liberal blogsophere, but also gaining real prominence in the mainstream news as well. The US Attorney scandal should have been their star turn. But instead, they've turned into a provincial soapbox like everyone else.

    Parent

    Yeah, (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by frankly0 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:51:41 AM EST
    One thing that struck me as pretty obvious was that if Hillary really had in mind to sew doubts about whether Obama was really a Christian, would she wait until she's asked essentially the same question multiple times before those doubts get expressed? How could she possibly have known a priori that she'd be faced with the same question more than once? How could she have deliberately planned this?

    Never thought I'd say this, but (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Jim J on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:53:22 AM EST
    it's amazing how the Obama "phenomenon" has mirrored the Bush campaign in its uncanny ability to convince everyone around it to actively work against their own self-interest.

    TPM used to be a damn good blog, but Josh is now mortgaging his future for pennies on the dollar to get a short-lived spike in traffic as an Obama echo chamber. How do you recover from such an obvious devolution? (I'd say the same about dKos, but it jumped the shark long ago.)

    Ditto with Moveon.org, which lost so much credibility by backing Obama after he stabbed them in the back on the Petraeus thing.

    Bush used to make people do self-destructive, idiotic short-term moves like that. Obama seems to be much better at it than even Bush is/was.

    even KOS says Hillary is personable (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by thereyougo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:07:20 AM EST
    and genuine in person. I see that too, but the media doesn't pick up on it. Its there.

    When 60 mins asked Hillary the Muslim question, she gave a definitive response. No, no, no I don't believe he is. She said this 3 seperate ways. They reported up the "negative" response when she said as far as I know he's not. Those were unambiguous answers to normal people, and not headlined by drudge or the rest of the media.

    Josh got a little lazy I think and lumped all the media together, obliquely saying it helped her and it has

    Even Tweety said that yesterday... (none / 0) (#150)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:54:06 PM EST
    ...right after he played a tape of her SNL appearance. He said it with a sort of "believe it or not" tone of voice.

    Parent
    Thye've Become What They Assail (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by OxyCon on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:16:01 AM EST
    Both Keith Olbermann and Josh Marshall have made their latest careers all about their ability to be fair, educated, impartial arbiters of truth who go after the dishonest, despicable bad guys.
    Yet, due to these two men becoming ill with Obama-itis, they no longer have the ability to be fair arbiters of the truth and have instead become the same very people they have attacked and ridiculed these past few years.
    They've become "Bushbots", except they are acting on Obama's behalf. Truth and decency be damned.
    Olbermann's show has become the "Bash Hillary Hour with Keith Olbermann".
    Marshall's blog has become the "Hillary Clinton Black Helicopter Society - You Know She Killed Vince Foster" web page.

    People are being too nice to Josh (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:17:01 AM EST
    He's either deluded or a liar.


    BTD, let me clear this up (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by cpinva on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:55:26 AM EST
    for you:

    josh marshall doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. he, like the right-wing smear machine, is just pulling disparate constructs out of thin air, in hopes they'll coalesce into something of substance.

    if not, look how much time he's made you waste today.

    Fom TPM 2/27/2008 (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by ding7777 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:14:39 PM EST
    Typical Josh of late... he jumps from Hillary complaining about the media being against her to "Clinton has pushed in concert" the media's scrutiny of Obama re "Farrakhan/Muslim/anti-Semitism stuff".

    Working the Refs

    Is Hillary's 'media's against me' offensive getting results? CNN goes long
     on the Obama-Israel-Scary-Muslim front.


    Josh Marshall... (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:24:45 PM EST
    Of all the cases of Clinton Derangement Syndrome, Josh Marshall's has been the saddest to watch. What we desperately need during a fiercely contested primary is a highly respected ecumenical place where we can all be united as Democrats. TPM was once such a place, but has now fallen into the same sectarian cesspool as much of the rest of the blogosphere.

    I think Marshall has decided that every single one of the smears against Clinton must be true--that the photo flap, the Farrakhan thing, Clinton's emphatic rejection of the Muslim smear on CBS, maybe even stretching back to Bob Kerrey's wildly misinterpreted remarks. I don't think he has anything new--if he did, you can be sure it'd be up in 24 point font on his website, which I no longer visit.

    For my part, I'm not inclined to make idle threats to not vote for the Democratic nominee. Our nominee would have to do something seriously offensive to lose my vote. But scurrilously accusing Hillary Clinton of racism/race-baiting/planting Muslim smears qualifies. My patience is already worn extremely thin by the way the Obama camp pushed the whole ridiculous LBJ/MLK stuff, and their reaction to the photo flap. If I get any sense that they (as opposed to loose blogging cannons) are trying to make hay out of things like the 60 minutes interview, they'll lose my vote. Some things are that important.

    Orange Fur have you read this blog before? (none / 0) (#148)
    by Independence33 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:43:55 PM EST
    Once again I must say that all this "democrats should be united" talk on this site in particular is a joke. What is currently the lead story on this site. Rezko Trial Day Two.  This site is following this trial harder than most right wing blogs waiting for anything to pounce on. Every single reputable news source has said that Obama did nothing illegal. He has admitted to making a mistake in dealing with him but thats it. This sounds familiar doesnt it. Sounds alot like all the mess Bill and Hillary got into and it was a bunch of crap. Do we really want this again? With all this horrible media bias against Clinton, where is the story of Frank Guistra. Maybe we will find out when we get her tax records.

    Parent
    Jeralyn... (none / 0) (#149)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:47:20 PM EST
    ... wrote a post earlier explaining why she'd be covering the Rezko trial. I forget the exact details, but she's done trial coverage before and this is something that she's very good at doing.

    Parent
    Good for her but we are talking about Talk LEFT! (none / 0) (#152)
    by Independence33 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:59:19 PM EST
    Im sure that she is a great court reporter but my point is this website is doing everything it can to take down the current Democratic frontrunner. I dont contend that there havent been websites that have been brutally unfair to Hillary, I just have a problem with people looking for Dem. unity or impartiallity on this site and getting upset with Josh Marshall. TPM is one of the best political blogs there is and maybe he just sees the writing on the wall like lots of others do. His headline right now is Democrats want Hillary to stay after Mar.4.  Oh my god that sounds like an attack on Hillary right? Compare headlines and tell me which one is being fair.

    Parent
    Talk Left IS Jeralyn (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by tree on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:24:19 PM EST
    with a little help from her friends like BTD.

    And she's not a "court reporter". She's a criminal defense attorney who also writes on the law and legal system. See Here.

    Parent

    Have you considered the fact that (none / 0) (#154)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:08:28 PM EST
    this is a legal blog?  

    Parent
    Then they should know better (none / 0) (#157)
    by Independence33 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:18:02 PM EST
    If this is a legal blog, why would it go down the path we have already tread? there could be no better comparison to this than whitewater and at least the Clintons were named in that particular trial. So far there has been no mention of Obama and today they made clear that he would not be asked to testify. This has nothing to do with him. This is one of the most politically motivated blogs I have read in awhile so dont tell me that its a "legal" blog. Its a pro Hillary blog

    Parent
    if you say so (none / 0) (#158)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:20:53 PM EST
    It would really help if you would (none / 0) (#160)
    by tree on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:26:15 PM EST
    look around the place before you get on your high horse. See my post below.

    Parent
    oops, (none / 0) (#166)
    by tree on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:43:20 PM EST
    I mean look at post #159.

    Parent
    Please tree, I dont buy it (none / 0) (#170)
    by Independence33 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:09:26 PM EST
    Im not trying to get on my high horse and I do apologize to Jeralyn for calling her a "court reporter". I meant no harm and I realize that there is a big difference between what she does and what a court reporter does. My bad. My argument still stands though. I have been coming around this blog for about two months now because I like to get both sides of the story. If you only look at people who agree with you than you become a little warped. I noticed early on that this was a pretty pro-Hillary site but it has gotten out of hand. I see all kinds of stories about how Obama is not democrat enough yet they have done nothing but attack him on every little thing. They are mad at Josh Marshall for supposedly being bias yet this site is extremley biased towards Hillary. Also I have not seen another story from her "recently" that had anything to do with a trial except Rezko. She has made some posts about Bushs federal judges problem but you can find them on any left leaning political blog. What she has done is post many politically motivated pieces that are anti-Obama even one from her nemisis the Green Party. This is a political blog, come on now.

    Parent
    Really (none / 0) (#173)
    by ChrisO on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:22:15 PM EST
    what in the world is a site that calls itself "The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news" doing covering a trial? You're right, Jeralyn should be covering one of the other high profile trials going on right now, like..umm. you know.. help me out here,Independence33.

    Parent
    What trial was her Farrakhan post covering (none / 0) (#176)
    by Independence33 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:32:39 PM EST
    Or her repeating of the Green Party hit job by Matt Gonzalez who turned out to be, oops Naders running partner. If you are trying to get an un-biased story of this trial is Jeralyn really the person to get that from. Most people who report on trials at least try and hold a semblance of impartiality. Is she an impartial voice ChrisO. What injustice has occured here that Obamas name should be dragged through this just like the Clintons were before? The true injustice here is a Clinton supporter reporting on the Rezco trial as a impartial observer

    Parent
    I think what has happened is that as the (none / 0) (#179)
    by hairspray on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:52:37 PM EST
    other blogs have become more pro Obama and some of them have become so warped the responses here have become more intense. An example of course is the Josh Marshal/Drudge reports that are being flogged in the MSM plus the unsubstantiated attacking of Hillary on the Muslim-racist issue. Those have been extremely unfair and neutal/pro Hillary and even some Obama supporters have been upset. Maybe that shouldn't cause anti-Obama feelings but there is a feeling that some of the racism stuff actually started with Jesse Jackson Jr.

    Parent
    It's rather condescending (none / 0) (#169)
    by Lena on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:54:57 PM EST
    to refer to Jeralyn as a "great court reporter." Are you channeling Obama now?

    Parent
    Refer to post 170 Lena, it was a mistake (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Independence33 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:14:49 PM EST
    I was trying to say that I am sure she is good at what she does and for some reason court reporter came out instead of trial investigator which is what she is doing right now. I can guarantee you I would love to have her as my defense attorney. Her defense of Sen. Clinton has been impressive and tenacious. I appreciate Jeralyn and what she has done I just disagree with what she is doing now.

    Parent
    And (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by tek on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:35:23 PM EST
    so we see another Rovian trait running through Obama's personality:  blame Clinton.  

    I'm so tired of his whining.  It's fine if he totally trashes her, but if she tells the truth about him, we get whining.

    I don't know where JM (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Lena on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:46:56 PM EST
    is getting his material to back up his statement that HRC is pushing smears of Obama in the press, but I do know that it would have been totally ridiculous for HRC to "leak" the photo of a turbaned Obama to the press -- on the same day that she was trying to get some positive spin on her endorsements by some major military brass.

    Does it make any sense to Josh that she would have stepped on her own toes in unveiling a treasure trove of military endorsements by simultaneously pushing a supposedly scandalous picture of Obama?

    To the extent that Josh thinks that Obama in a turban equals Obama as a muslim, and that HRC is responsible, he makes no sense.

    Arguably she pushed Farrakhan in the debate (none / 0) (#26)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:08:05 AM EST
    but nothing since (as far as I know). Farrakhan association lends itself to accusations of anti-semitism. Obama countered it nicely.

    I guarantee you in some circles, Obama passing Farrakhan on the street means they are blood brothers and yes it is racist, because those people are looking for a reason to justify their position.  

    Then arguably she added a qualifier (I think she said as far as I know) about Obama being a Muslim.

    Other than that, I don't know what Josh is talking about.  

    Russert asked the question (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:10:13 AM EST
    How does Clinton get blamed for that?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#55)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:19:33 AM EST
    I said arguably. But after Tim asked the question, what did Hillary do? She tried to claim a difference between rejecting and denouncing as though Obama's response was not sufficient and there was some reason to be skeptical of his claim.

    Arguably that is pushing Farrakhan onto Obama. Obama handled that one well by denying the premise and then doing what Hillary demanded- rejecting and denouncing.

    All in all its pretty thin for Josh to hang his argument on.

    Parent

    Arguably, she did Obama a favor (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:09:01 AM EST
    by forcing him to reject Farrakhan.
    I think that one really got Josh's dander up, since he has been  writing snide headlines about "rejecting and renouncing" ever since.

    Parent
    Even Andrew Sullivan (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by catfish on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:48:04 AM EST
    praised Hillary and criticized Barack for that passage in the debate. He said Barack was "weak, weak, weak" in rejecting Farrakhan and said it was Barack's "worst moment" to date in all the debates.

    Parent
    Sullivan said something decent about Clinton? (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:40:05 PM EST
    Good Grief, maybe a snowball does have a chance in hell.

    Parent
    I believe. . . (none / 0) (#43)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:14:39 AM EST
    that fairly early on (perhaps in Iowa) a couple of low-level Clinton staffers or perhaps volunteers were forced out for circulating fliers with Obama as Muslim claims.

    This is a vague recollection on my part and something I would have read about on blogs rather than in the so-called respectable media, so take it for what it's worth.  A quick google out to ferret out the original "reports" on this.

    That's what Josh is referring to? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:15:35 AM EST
    Wow. That took a lot of time to germinate.

    Parent
    No idea. . . (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:04:45 AM EST
    whether that's what Josh is basing his statement on.  You asked whether there was any evidence whatsoever that the Clinton campaign was involved in this kind of stuff and I do remember, not vividly, their having to get rid of a couple of people in one of the earlier states for engaging in this kind of behavior.

    That may have contributed to the ginning up of the "Clintons are racist jerkball" narrative you see in the demento-sphere these days.

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:11:03 AM EST
    it was emails that were supposedly forwarded not flyers. And the Clinton staffers or volunteers were fired for doing it.

    Parent
    Maybe TalkLeft (none / 0) (#48)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:16:28 AM EST
    Maybe TalkLeft isn't a key press outlet, or maybe you're just not seeing what the rest of the country sees.

    For ex, H. Clinton's weird demand in the last debate that Obama use "reject" along with denounce, reprehensible et al when describing Farrakhan and his anti-Semitism. Or Clinton's bizarre equivocating to the equally bizarre question on 60Min regarding whether or not Obama is a Muslim. Imagine the tepid repsonse if she'd been asked if Obama was a terrorist with a bomb factory.

    Drudge reported that H. Clinton's camp supplied the native garb photo and the official response was on the level of "I don't think so." I will grant that that was a double-gotcha, which suggests Republican origin.

    If Big D relies on his reading of Clinton campaign materials to find dirty, underhanded campaign stories circulated against Obama he will never have to worry about finding it.

    So TL is a ket media outlet now? (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:21:04 AM EST
    Thanks!

    As for the rest, so Clinton was behind Russert asking his question and Kroft asking his question?

    As for the garb photo, the Clinton campaign denied it and the only source for it is Drudge. Is that the new Josh Marshall standard?

    I knew it was yours.

    Parent

    The source of the garb photo of Feb. 25 (none / 0) (#102)
    by andrys on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:29:47 AM EST
    I've mentioned this before.  I found that a Free Republic (conservative Republican) member scanned that photo on Feb. 23 and posted it that night on Free Republic, where it was re-posted by another member a few times - in two days of forum threads, resulting in a lot of discussion and, little doubt, lots of emailing.

      That scanned photo was uploaded for discussions TWO DAYS BEFORE Drudge reported it was being disseminated.

      I have details, for those interested, at http://andrys1.blogspot.com/2008/02/source-of-obama-photo-from-kenya.html

      A read of Drudge's report is that he "obtained" a "email" that discussed the photo.  It was not mailed to him.

    Parent

    so how does any of this support the contention (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:09:49 AM EST
    that Clinton has pushed this stuff in concert with key press outlets? Really, does everyone just get to lie with impugnity now and all will go along?

    "The Farrakhan/Muslim/anti-Semitism stuff, which Clinton has pushed in concert with key press outlets, also probably plays a big role."

    Parent

    So you think Hillary should have (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:11:27 AM EST
    said "Obama is a good Christian"?

    Parent
    Bizarre Equivocating, My A** (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by plf1953 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:45:50 AM EST
    This was the exchange with Kroft.  Does anyone else beside Bob see any "bizarre equivocating?"

    "You don't believe that Senator Obama's a Muslim?" Kroft asked Sen. Clinton.

    "Of course not. I mean, that, you know, there is no basis for that. I take him on the basis of what he says. And, you know, there isn't any reason to doubt that," she replied.

    "You said you'd take Senator Obama at his word that he's not...a Muslim. You don't believe that he's...," Kroft said.

    "No. No, there is nothing to base that on. As far as I know," she said.

    "It's just scurrilous...?" Kroft inquired.

    "Look, I have been the target of so many ridiculous rumors, that I have a great deal of sympathy for anybody who gets, you know, smeared with the kind of rumors that go on all the time," Clinton said.

    Bob, please point out what is "bizarre" or "equivocal" about Clinton's response to Kroft's badgering?


    Parent

    You know (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by spit on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:49:49 AM EST
    frankly, this stuff is starting to offend me:

    whether or not Obama is a Muslim. Imagine the tepid repsonse if she'd been asked if Obama was a terrorist with a bomb factory.

    They're not even remotely equivalent questions.

    I know that politically and in the interests of actual truth, it's important for Obama to be very clear that he's not Muslim. But I would really, really like it if the blogs would stop acting as though Muslim = terrorist... while that's a political point people are making (and they're sadly often correct that the two are conflated in the minds of many Americans), I don't feel like most people do a very good job of wording it to matter-of-factly correct the rumor without sounding insulting to Muslims.

    The Obama is a Muslim rumors could be countered without making it constantly sound as though being Muslim is a terrible thing to be.

    Parent

    Please explain the disconnect (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by ChrisO on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:27:58 PM EST
    between the Obama campaign, as well as people like Josh, skewering the Clinton camp because they couldn't immediately state with certainty that an e-mail hadn't been sent out by one of their hundreds of staffers, and the Obama campaign taking days to realize that their chief economic policy advisor had met with representaitves of the Canadian government? I mean, they only had to check with one guy.

    I'm not just throwing stuff against the wall here. I had an e-mail back and forth with Josh about his comment that the Clinton campaign's non-denial "spoke volumes."

    I was going to respond to your comment about 60 Minutes, but it's clear that little incident is already firmly lodged in Obamaland folklore.

    Parent

    To be fair ... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:09:41 AM EST
    it was Russert who originally made the "weird demand" to reject Farrakhan's endorsement.  Obama wouldn't, then Clinton brought it up again.

    Frankly, whether they intended to or not, I think they both did him a favor getting him to finally use the word reject.

    Your mileage may vary.

    Parent

    This site itself promoted the Farrakhan story. (none / 0) (#52)
    by Independence33 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:17:46 AM EST
    Come on BTD, check your own site. Anything that has been remotely negative about Obama you or Jeralyn have reported it including this Farrakhan swill which was roundly rejected by most left leaning blogs. We had to waste time in a debate because of this nonsense and Obama did everything he can to seperate himself from it. Denouncing is every bit as strong or stronger than rejecting if you actually look it up. Denouncing actually means you are calling the statements "evil". There was no offer of support or help so he had nothing to reject. Instead of supporting Obama and showing some class she attacked him and pointed to her opposition to some New York group which she actually said nice things about later which I noticed you didnt cover.

    Say that is so (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:18:52 AM EST
    And I reject your accusation, this blog is not part of the Clinton campaign.

    Parent
    "Do you reject" (none / 0) (#107)
    by andrys on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:32:58 AM EST
    Russert's question was "Do you reject..."

      So, he answered in kind.  

    Parent

    Another thing to consider... (none / 0) (#59)
    by mike in dc on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:25:27 AM EST
    ...is that Josh is technically part of the "news media" now, and he may be privy to what the Clinton staffers are pushing out to the press.
    I guess the Clinton "reject vs. denounce" response, plus the "doesn't he look like a Muslim dressed up like this?" photo flap, plus the rumors that Clinton proxies are propelling the "whisper campaign" against Obama in the Jewish community, are what leads Marshall to this conclusion.  I think his characterization may be a little overstrong, but the "working the refs" comments are a bit more on point, in my opinion.  She has been fairly effective recently in complaining that the media's taking it easy on Obama and giving her a harder time.

    The Media runs stories with out (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:11:40 AM EST
    telling us what it is talking about?

    You must be joking.

    Parent

    mmm, i don't know about this: (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by kangeroo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:19:19 AM EST
    "She has been fairly effective recently in complaining that the media's taking it easy on Obama and giving her a harder time."

    i think the media's recent scrutiny has little to do with hillary and everything to do with SNL's skits, blogs like TL, and polls indicating increasing public awareness of media bias.  hillary's still hillary; it's the media that's come around for the last few hours.  let's see if it holds up.

    Parent

    Be on guard (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Manuel on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:44:07 AM EST
    Balance to the media means being equally unfair to both candidates.  That is not much of an improvement.

    Parent
    I missed the part whare a Clinton supporter (none / 0) (#175)
    by ChrisO on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:30:11 PM EST
    said "Doesn't he look like a Muslim?" Please provide a link, I'm sure it's fascinating reading.

    Parent
    Sorry you're all wrong this is the real reason (none / 0) (#61)
    by Neal on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:27:38 AM EST
    ah, limbaugh. (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by kangeroo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:27:08 AM EST
    the gop's been actively encouraging republicans to cross over to vote for obama for a while now, and the vast majority of cross-over republicans are clearly voting for obama, not clinton.  this looks to me like a last-minute coverup effort, purely for show.  the bonus for them is that it reinforces the obamagroupthink-driven myth that the gop wants to be up against hillary.  ha.

    Parent
    Yeahhhh! (none / 0) (#164)
    by tek on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:38:36 PM EST
    Someone in the media is in her corner!

    Parent
    Question: Ethics law and Obama (none / 0) (#86)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:14:33 AM EST
    Is there a big Jewish vote in Ohio or Texas that is causing this?  

    Should be just question... (none / 0) (#104)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:31:34 AM EST
    Hate this.. title pickup did not check.

    Parent
    There used to be a significant (none / 0) (#137)
    by oculus on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:46:19 AM EST
    Jewish population in Cleveland area.  

    Parent
    Wow, My PC told me I'd lost connectivity, (none / 0) (#87)
    by jawbone on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:15:31 AM EST
    so I reposted--very sorry, Did not mean to post twice and lost my original point of posting.

    Honest!

    I was having incredibly slow uploading--not sure what the problem is....Again, sorry for a (long) double.

    These vicious lies used to (none / 0) (#90)
    by kenosharick on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:18:43 AM EST
    slander Sen. Clinton go unchallenged by the MSM-and so get more and more outlandish.

    This site has little room to talk. (none / 0) (#132)
    by Independence33 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:13:49 AM EST
    Am I supposed to take all this TPM Obama bias stuff seriously from this site! This site has done nothing but run positive Clinton stories and negative Obama stories for the past 2 months and everyone is pissed that Josh Marshall has a sort of pro Obama post. This is the height of hypocrisy. I understand that they are not trying to run away from being pro-Hillary here I guess,although every attempt to say that they are is met with blanket denials. They have jumped on this pro McCain nafta story/Farrakhan Rezco anything that could possibly tarnish Obama. The Rezco stuff is the best because I guarantee you no one wants to look at the Clintons business dealings in the past and present and evidently Clinton doesnt want us too because she wont release her tax returns. Im sure the argument will be that their just trying to balance all the other media out but I think this is nonsense. The media always loves the underdog and Obama has been up until now.

    The question is not bias---it's honesty. (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:16:05 AM EST
    What on earth was JMM talking about?
    Clinton working in concert with the media to slime Obama? That's a serious charge.

    Parent
    Okay (none / 0) (#163)
    by tek on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:37:54 PM EST
    for him to do, though.  Face it, the only thing that the Obamanians could possibly like about Hillary is to see her walking away from the race.

    Parent
    As far as I know (none / 0) (#136)
    by 1jane on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:24:40 AM EST
    Clinton is not Jewish, as far as I know.
    Obama is not a Morman, as far as I know.
    Clinton is not a 7th Day Adventist, as far as I know.
    Obama is not a Catholic, as far as I know.
    Clinton is not a Southern Babtist, as far as I know.
    Obama is not a Methodist, as far as I know.
    Clinton is not a Muslim, as far as I know.
    Obama is not a Buddist, as far as I know.
    Clinton is a Christian, as far as I know.
    Obama is a Christiaon, as far as I know.

    The only thing that I have ever seen that would (none / 0) (#178)
    by BrandingIron on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:51:09 PM EST
    support the whole anti-Semitism claim other than the whole Drudge thing is that Debbie Schlussel blog post, but she's a wingnut.  And seriously, I've looked all over for real Obama/anti-Semitism ties and that's the only thing I've found.  So I wouldn't take any of it to be true.