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Is This True?

By Big Tent Democrat

Josh Marshall writes:

It's hard to say just what issues are responsible for the shift in momentum. It's hard to believe the NAFTA stuff hasn't played a role. The Farrakhan/Muslim/anti-Semitism stuff, which Clinton has pushed in concert with key press outlets, also probably plays a big role.

(Emphasis supplied.) I guess I missed it but I do not remember any Clinton campaign materials on Farrakhan, anti-semitism or Obama being a Muslim. Is Josh talking about Steve Kroft asking Hillary if Obama is a Muslim? Did Farrakhan and anti-semitism come up too? Anyone have any info on this? Do you know what Marshall is talking about?

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  • Display: Sort:
    It's not (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:57:55 AM EST
    true. But really, the media actually criticizing Obama for the first time EVER is what has turned the tide. This is ridiculous and Josh should be ashamed of himself for perpetuating this falsehood.

    So you know of nothing (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:59:35 AM EST
    that supports Josh's charges? Did we miss something?

    [ Parent ]
    Nope. (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:03:25 AM EST
    He's perpetuating DRUDGE reports and internet gossip. None of this is supported by anything at all. Other than his own delusions.

    [ Parent ]
    Is there a Drudge Report post (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:04:03 AM EST
    to that effect? I have not even seen that.

    [ Parent ]
    That is (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:07:21 AM EST
    what he's referring to with the "Muslim" part of the accusation. He rolled the Drudge post, the debate issue about Farrakahn, and anti-semitism all into one.

    [ Parent ]
    The garb was an (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:08:37 AM EST
    Obama is a Muslim thing? Really?

    And Russert's question was Clinton's doing?

    And what of the antisemitism thing?

    [ Parent ]

    The antisemetism thing? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:24 AM EST
    I don't get that one either. Unless it's a stretch of the Farrakhan thing.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't know (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:17:56 AM EST
    I am truly perplexed.

    [ Parent ]
    I have heard (none / 0) (#60)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:26:14 AM EST
    that Obama is specifically doing outreach to the Jewish community to persuade them that he is on their side.

    If I had to make an educated guess based on what is on the net (as opposed to what is true and what is not) I would say that the antisemitical charge stems from Obama's church and its pastor.  There have been many, many emails circulating with quotes from the pastor's sermons that are really alarming to a lot of folks who won't bother to find out whether or not they are true.  Also, there are a lot of rumors about open members of the Nation of Islam being on Obama's IL senate staff.

    The Nation of Islam is classified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

    [ Parent ]

    I Think That's The "Basis" (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by BDB on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:11:35 AM EST
    But I also think it's crap.  Obama is no anti-semite, at least publicly and in his policies (who can know anyone's heart and honestly I don't care so much about their heart, it's what they do and say that counts in politics).

    [ Parent ]
    oh, definitely crap (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:24:23 AM EST
    that was never an issue.  It's just like the night shirt rumor and the darkening of Obama's skin rumor--total conspiracy crap.

    You know, I really am surprised this is what the issue is today considering that last night on TDS, Clinton said she'd put republicans on her cabinet.  She went on to say that dems would first have to clean up the mess the repubs had made (meaning, I suppose, that she would do it in her second term, and maybe then it'd be a republican like Colin Powell before he compromised himself) but I totally assumed that the first part of her response would be the "lead" outrage today.

    [ Parent ]

    what the-- (none / 0) (#110)
    by kangeroo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:37:32 AM EST
    she said that?  okay, am i just being totally ignorant here, how common is it to appoint cabinet posts cross-party?

    [ Parent ]
    Bush had one Democrat (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by catfish on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:44:29 AM EST
    Transportation Secretary Norm Mineta.

    [ Parent ]
    there has been a tradition (none / 0) (#121)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:49:10 AM EST
    going back many administrations, can't say how many, to have one member of the other party in the cabinet.

    [ Parent ]
    A tradition going back many administrations? (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by plf1953 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:59:29 AM EST
    Aside from Cohen under Clinton and Mineta under Bush II, can you give me some other recent examples?

    [ Parent ]
    One other do not a tradition make (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by plf1953 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:07:45 PM EST
    in my book ...

    More like a rarity.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm not knowledgeble on this subject at all (none / 0) (#129)
    by tree on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:08:08 AM EST
    but it was mentioned quite recently (here?) that McNamara was a Republican.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, McNamara was a Republican (none / 0) (#140)
    by esmense on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:06:19 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Back to at least Eisenhower (none / 0) (#141)
    by DaleA on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:11:20 PM EST
    and may go back even further. The idea seems to be that having one opposite party appointment keeps the process honest.

    [ Parent ]
    My guess Alexrod has Josh on his blackberry (none / 0) (#180)
    by Salt on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 03:06:36 PM EST
    broadcast, but seriously, there is a change and its from what I can perceive white males rethinking after the debate, my good friend and his buddy who had not believed the country was ready for a female and no way intended to go for the girl in the race have switched late last week to Senator Clinton.  I'm not sure I understand the logic but he said he has "come to resent Obama" and his belief that Hillary can accomplish heath care, not sure how that translates but we are in Ohio and some of the commercials have been in poor taste I believe, one had rock music and applause with Obama saying he would end the Iraq war and then others are just creepy the personality adulation with Obama speaking of himself as a moment in time. Anyway a yuck factor is taking hold in an anti Obama camp and peevish behavior like yesterday press conference and the NAFA memo now really deadly to cute by far.

    Maybe it was the Farrakhan moment when he just changed and agreed with Senator Clinton so quickly and so now they believe the guy will roll over to just get along with anyone and accomplish nothing.  If you recall in the same debate his own list of his accomplishments in that were less than complimentary and it showed on his face.


    [ Parent ]

    No, not sure what he is talking about. Are you (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Angel on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:58:11 AM EST
    sure he knows?

    No (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:59:05 AM EST
    But thought maybe I missed something.

    [ Parent ]
    Have you asked Marshall? (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Josey on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:44:00 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It's really funny (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:00:09 AM EST
    in a piece about the Clinton folks supposedly working the refs, he appears to get worked by the Obama people. Or this is just his mild Obama bias showing through.

    maybe next he'll tell us (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:00:44 AM EST
    that the Clintons intentionally made Obama blacker in their commercial .

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:01:59 AM EST
    Well, if Josh's standard are those of the dkos rec list welll  . .. .

    [ Parent ]
    some of the titles on DK rec list (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by Josey on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:53:14 AM EST
    seem straight from NewsMax.
    That place has really gone downhill.
    Now Obama supporters want him to win it all tonight so "everyone" can come together and we all prepare for the general.
    See?  all the mocking and bashing of Hillary currently on the front page and rec list - are to be ignored while we all join hands with Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    I thought I was reading (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:10 AM EST
    The Onion when I saw that.  Obviously it was meant as satire, wasn't it? no?

    [ Parent ]
    I have no idea (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:00:48 AM EST
    I am just wondering if I missed something.

    [ Parent ]
    When bad things happen (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:00:33 AM EST
    It's always because Clinton (or better: "The Clintons") are evil, soulless machiavellian monsters.

    Didn't you know that?


    So is therre any evidence (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:01:30 AM EST
    to the charge? Even weak evidence? I am trying to see if I missed something.

    [ Parent ]
    The weak evidence would be... (none / 0) (#181)
    by jr on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 05:30:52 PM EST
    ...the infamous "reject v. denounce" debate segment.  I don't know of anything stronger than that, though.

    [ Parent ]
    First I heard that Clinton was.... (5.00 / 8) (#9)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:01:21 AM EST
    ...working in concert with key press outlets. If she has that much media cooperation then I guess it was also her idea to let herself be ridiculed and mocked  24/7.

    Its reverse psychology don't you know (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by Marvin42 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:03:56 AM EST
    Its very clever and fiendish really. First you get the media to ACT completely biased against you, constantly run negative unflattering stories and commentary while giving your opponent a complete pass. You do this for months and months until you almost lose. Then, when no one is paying attention, YOU MAKE THEM STOP.

    See? Clever, huh?

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:02:21 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I imagine (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:02:13 AM EST
    he is taking Drudge at his "word" that the Photo Phlap with Obama in tribal togs was planted by the Clintons.  Because, you know, the Clintons have been soooo good at controlling the press.

    Exactly. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:04:13 AM EST
    He's literally using Drudge as a valid source.

    [ Parent ]
    No, no, no (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by Lou Grinzo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:39:55 AM EST
    He's not using Drudge as a source, he's reaching across the aisle.  You know, the one that separates the reality based community from the people who live on surreal estate.


    [ Parent ]
    But that report (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:05:06 AM EST
    has nothing to do with Farrakhan or antisemitism or even if Obama is a Muslim.

    You sure that is the reference?

    [ Parent ]

    That's exactly (none / 0) (#22)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:06:15 AM EST
    what I think the reference is. And the Farrakhan statement is based on the endorsement and the "renounce/reject" business from the debate. And the anti-semitism thing I assume from same.  

    [ Parent ]
    I concur, (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:09:37 AM EST
    and I base this on the fact that there is nothing new.  What we're seeing is a picking of the bones for more meat.  It's the kind of thing we've seen coming out of the Obama campaign as the polls and internals show a drift back to Clinton.

    I think it jibes with the rantings we saw from a certain diarist the other day, threatening that he knows some horrible Clinton-related stories he's been sitting on out of...respect?...but will soon unleash on the world.

    I thought some of them were sore winners, but it's even worse when they think they are going to lose.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah. The Big Story (none / 0) (#156)
    by Daryl24 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:15:12 PM EST
    Any day now for the past 16 years the ultimate Clinton scandal will hit the fan. Stuff that makes the Turner Diaries look like, well the Turner Diaries only worst.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Russert asked the question (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:07:44 AM EST
    not Clinton. Not following the logic there.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, the question came from Russert (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:11:31 AM EST
    but then Clinton didn't stand up and renounce and reject the Muslim question on 60 Minutes.

    Like I said--picking the bones here.  Of course Clinton is to blame, in the same sense that Obama was blaming Clinton for his Rezko scrutiny in the press conference yesterday.

    It's the basic premise of all great Westerns: in order for there to be a good guy, there has to be a bad guy, and for some blogs, the bad guy is always going to be the woman.

    [ Parent ]

    So now Hillary has to fight Obama's battles? (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by diplomatic on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:15:28 AM EST
    The 60 minutes thing is only making Obama supporters look overly concerned about the "Muslim thing"

    Obama is starting too look too much like he thinks there's something wrong with being a Muslim.  I hear him deny it all the time and reinforce he is a Christian but rarely (or ever) does he also point out that "even if I was a Muslim, that shouldn't matter."

    [ Parent ]

    absolutely! (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by left is right on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:32:31 AM EST
    While we (Muslims Americans) are not a substantial voting block, you have nailed a point that I have heard more and more often in the community.  Obama had rather strong Muslim support initially, but his reactions that come across like being a Muslim is a horrid accusation, without EVER using it as an opportunity to open positive discussion about Muslims or ask why it would matter, has turned off many of many Muslims, and they are switching their support to Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    We must be mentally linked this AM (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by spit on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:10:24 AM EST
    it's started really bugging me, too. Initially, the responses were mildly annoying on that level, but it's really starting to chafe now. I'm not Muslim, but many of my neighbors are, and I've seen some of the discrimination they've had to deal with first hand.

    Not that the situations are really equivalent, but as a lesbian, it reminds me of all the times in the past I've watched people accuse each other of being gay and the response was almost always "Gross! No I'm not!". Hits me in the gut the same way.

    [ Parent ]

    This has bothered me for a long time (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by tree on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:25:49 PM EST
    He (or his campaign managers) have dealt with this whole thing in a very self-destructive way. By not making it crystal clear that, while he is not a Muslim, he doesn't see anything wrong with someone being a Muslim, he has missed a perfect chance to play up his unifier message, and he's pissed off American Muslims for no good reason. His reaction to the cultural garb is the same. His campaign acts as if IT thinks a real photo of him is somehow scary when the campaign whines about it allegedly coming from the Clinton campaign.

    All this fear on his part just makes it seem, in the minds of those who would be inclined to believe such rumors, that he must have something to hide, hence they'll leap to the conclusion that he must be a "secret" Muslim. If he'd just deny and clarify that being a Muslim is not a negative, and throw in a pitch for religious tolerance he could make the whole issue go away. Instead his  campaign's fearful response just eggs the issue on.  Why isn't he "bringing us together" on this? Just to get a few cheap shots in at Clinton? What a waste.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly. (none / 0) (#131)
    by manys on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:10:56 AM EST
    "I'm not, but what if I was?"

    [ Parent ]
    Kathy (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by auntmo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:54:18 AM EST
    Heard on MSNBC  last  night  (take  that  with  a  grain of salt, of  course)    that   Drudge  himself  is  claiming  the picture  came  from  a  Clinton   lower-level  staffer.    

    But  I'm  not  a   Drudge  fan ,  by any  means.

    Josh  apparently  has  become  a  Drudge  believer  in   his  Obama  love  fest.   Yuk.

    [ Parent ]

    Drudge has not earned (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:25:24 PM EST
    the kind of journalistic respect that his reputation among the news media implies.  He may very well be a nice guy, but he hasn't met that standard in a long while.

    [ Parent ]
    Drudge actually said (none / 0) (#171)
    by ChrisO on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:14:06 PM EST
    that he "obtained" the e-mail, not that it was sent to him. And I think it's telling that he didn't release the entire text. It appears to me that someone in the Clinton campaign (if Drudge is to be believed) sent the e-mail to someone else, and it made its way to Drudge. The message of the e-mail concerned the unfair treatment Hillary gets from the press, which, through the lens of an Obama supporter, read something like "Hey, let's all spread the word that Obama's a Muslim, so we can win the election through slimy tactics!"

    In looking at the picture, it's eyecatching enough that I can beleive someone would send it to someone else with no intention of smearing Obama. Look at all of the stuff that gets e-mailed around every day. I'm mostly amazed that it took so long to get out.

    The bottom line is, no matter how much you want to show respect for your hosts, if you have a problem with people thinking you're a Muslim, don't have your picture taken in a turban. It's that simple.

    You wouldn't see Bush getting his picture taken with a dunce cap on, would you? Although I'm sure we can all sorta see the dunce cap when we look at his photos.

    [ Parent ]

    Was that (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:03:28 AM EST
    about Farrakhan or anti-semitism? I could see how you could wildly argue it has something to do with the be is a Muslim charge, though I would have thought that he would not make a charge like that based on that.

    [ Parent ]
    The stinkiest kind of ventriloquism (none / 0) (#155)
    by Ellie on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:13:35 PM EST
    Drudge blows it out his arse at sunrise and it wafts out of David Gergen's mouth in Prime Time. (From Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees, Aired February 25, 2008 - 23:00 ET)

    I'm including the comment from professional twit Gloria Borger, who gives a clinic on the gratuitous slams twits such as Borger hurl around simply because Sen Clinton is even running.

    GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: ... It's clearly an inconsistent campaign. She hasn't had one clear message. She's had three messages. One day she reaches over and she touches Barack Obama's arm. The next day she's saying, "Shame on you." The next day she's running as an experienced commander in chief. You know, it's difficult, Anderson, to win with one message, much less three messages. And I think, you know, this has all the trappings of a campaign that is having an internal argument about how to proceed because there isn't any clear direction. [...]

    Yeah, you go, Glo! Why can't she push -- in a cute little jingle -- the bombing of Iranian citizens, then canoodle with foaming at the mouth bigots like Rev. Hagee and then dispense slow-cooked conservative red meat at the Just Us Patriots BBQ and Schmooze like versatile John McCain?

    [cutting out Anderson "The Silver Fox" Kewper]

    DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: I agree very much with Gloria and everything she just said. The odd thing, Anderson, is that when you look at what Hillary Clinton has been saying on the stump the last three or four days, she's actually been giving some very good speeches.

    She's coming out fighting for the middle class, for people losing their jobs; they're effective. And she's holding on to a big lead still in Ohio. She's definitely not out of the game, but, you know, to go from the love fest at the end of that debate to the, as you say, the rant on Sunday, the angry rant on her part, and then the sarcasm on Monday.

    And now this ugly incident, which Matt Drudge says -- the disagreement is with Matt Drudge. Matt Drudge is saying that the Clinton staffers circulated this. But all that has obscured her basic message and it makes her campaign seem like a plane flying -- careening around in a bad storm.

    And in contrast, as Barack Obama answers these various charges, he seems like the calm and steady one. It does not, I think, help her campaign. I think it strengthens him. (... More schwah...)

    Amazingly, right and left pounced on this and assumed her guilty without even stopping to investigate. She was even castigated for not denying forcefully enough the propagation of an independently published, already-public photo which wasn't even offensive. (Who thinks it's offensive to wear local dress or otherwise honor a host?)

    And just to apply a bit of logic, why would HRC or a staffer confide in Matt Drudge of all people, the matrix for every revolting, wending, vining poison rumor that dogged fmr First Lady HRC and fmr. President Clinton for two terms, and continued at an insane pitch during her office as Senator?

    Despite the press still in sweetheart mode with Obama, this stank of dirty GOP tricks, as they're the ones who think having a middle name Hussein -- a common enough name -- is "bad" and in whose interest it is to malign both candidates.

    [ Parent ]

    Also the (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:05:19 AM EST
    "in concert with press outlets" line is laughable. The press that has had their knives out for her for 20 yrs and has stabbed her with them repeatedly in the last several months.

    I have seen no eviidence (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:05:51 AM EST
    of what Marshall has accused.

    Since I have virtually quit posting on the blogs to try to keep an eye on what is happening outside of the blogosphere, I think I would have noticed.

    This is a ridicuulous assertion until and unless there is a scintilla of proof. even then there must be more proof than simply saying it's so, or that some evil staffer (without name) or some group (again without name) allied to the Clintons has done this.

    The Farrakhan (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:07:24 AM EST
    stuff came from the debate. He should blame Russert for asking that question. I think it stretches belief to think that Hillary forced Farrakhan to endorse Obama.

    Why on earth Kroft asked Hillary about whether Obama was a muslim or not is beyond me. If he has such concerns then he should be asking Obama.

    So the theory is (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:09:39 AM EST
    Clinton forced Russert and Kroft to ask the questions they did?

    Is that really Josh's argument? Come on. There must be more to it than that.

    [ Parent ]

    Haven't you heard, Hillary is secretly (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:11:39 AM EST
    in control of the media.

    [ Parent ]
    No, seriously (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:28 AM EST
    There must be more to it than that.

    [ Parent ]
    I think it's Josh not reporting (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by andgarden on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:14:28 AM EST
    but just saying what seems truthy to him.

    Birds of a feather with "Al Gore invented the internet."

    Yes, I think he's really gotten that bad.

    [ Parent ]

    Truthiness (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by BDB on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:20:02 AM EST
    Much of the Left blogosphere has been injected with truthiness where Hillary is concerned.  It sounds like it should be true, so they say it.  It's almost like they are moved by some sort of cultural force that they think they're immune from and don't recognize when they see it.

    [ Parent ]
    That's pretty bad (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:16:58 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I have been looking (none / 0) (#45)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:15:33 AM EST
    and there doesn't seem to be anything NEW regarding the Farrrakhan/Muslim crap.  Has anyone else found other "evidence" of the Clintons controlling the media over this one?

    I suppose you could argue that the media has loved Obama so long and so hard that there must've been something outrageous that happened in order for the press to turn as they have.  And of course, it's easy to say that Clinton is to blame.  It's the same excuse Obama used yesterday.  Blame Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    So as far as you know (none / 0) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:16:43 AM EST
    snark intended, this is nothing out there on this?

    [ Parent ]
    to the best of my recollection (none / 0) (#69)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:06:32 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Frankly (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:07:22 AM EST
    I'm left shaking my head as to what Josh's point is. I think it's perhaps, like a poster above said, that he's taking Drudge's word, Russert's and Kroft's question and rolling it all into a ball and somehow blaming Hillary for it.

    I'm with you though. If he has evidence then he should show it. I would think that if there was a flyer then he would have a copy.

    [ Parent ]

    Josh is trying to not look stupid and failing (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by goldberry on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:08:16 AM EST
    He backed Obama strongly.  He senses that the energy has shifted somewhat.  The blogosphere made a big deal over some little "As far as I know" grace note on the end of a Hillary Clinton comment about Obama being a Muslim and they all freaked out.  They completely ignored all of the other stuff that preceded that comment.  So, how can I take anything Josh says seriously anymore?  
    And what's the big deal about being Muslim anyway?  If I were a Muslim American, I'd be pissed that one candidate is taking such pains to distance himself from me.  How does Keith Ellison feel about that?  It's just bizarre.  But if he is the nominee, he's going to get this crap every single day.  He'd better figure out a better response than unrighteous indignation.  No one is going to care.  

    So this is about (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:11:23 AM EST
    Clinton saying when asked by Steve Kroft that Obama is not a Muslim? I mean, that is what she said. I do not get it.

    [ Parent ]
    Is "I take him at his word" legalese? (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by catfish on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:42:06 AM EST
    I don't get the uproar over Hillary's 60 Minutes response, but there does appear to be a lot of it.

    Even David Gergen said Hillary left some "wiggle room" by saying "I take him at his word" referring to Obama not being a Muslim.

    [ Parent ]

    She and we only know (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by esmense on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:24:49 PM EST
    ...about Obama's personal faith based on what he has said. It was absurd for Kroft to ask Clinton what faith she "believed" Obama practiced. Why would she believe he practiced any faith other than the one he said he practiced?

    [ Parent ]
    Is he going to go all Aravosis on us (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:07:18 AM EST
    if Hillary wins Texas?! What is his problem with Clinton? I've read TPM for years, and I am positive that Hillary's politics are much more in line with Josh's than Obama's. Hell, JMM was one of the original liberal hawks---HE cannot be upset about the AUMF vote.


    [ Parent ]
    It Seems All About (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:08:24 AM EST
    The debate and Russert teaming up with Clinton demanding that Obama use the word reject over denounce.

    Pretty thin, I think Josh's bias is the story.

    Russert teamed up with Clinton? (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:00 AM EST
    She got him to ask that question? Really?

    [ Parent ]
    No But (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:15:57 AM EST
    He must have imagined that he was doing her a favor for once. She owes him big time now.  

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:25:14 AM EST
    Russert doing Clinton favors? I assure you that was NOT his intent.

    Strange interpretation from you Squeaky.

    [ Parent ]

    Snark Alert (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:22:19 AM EST
    In any case she owes him... Because of that question her polling numbers have gone up. (snark alert) Wasn't that the reason Josh made his claim in the first place. He was perplexed about HRC's surging poll numbers. His answer was the press has felt bad for being so mean to her all these years and now is giving her a leg up.

    Many here have argued a similar point, but for different reasons. Commenters have argued that the SNL skit helped HRC, and woke up the MSM to its bias.

    [ Parent ]

    Josh Marshall doesn't blame Tim Russert? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by diplomatic on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:07 AM EST
    Hmm I guess that would not get him invited to be on the panel for Meet the Press in the future if he did such a thing.  

    Remember kids: It's always the Clinton's fault.

    Typical Josh At This Point (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by BDB on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:12:25 AM EST
    He no longer substantiate things he writes about Hillary Clinton.  But he has no reason to because most of his readers will not demand it.  They'll demand it about others, probably even McCain, but not about Hillary.  Where Hillary is concerned Josh has the same standards found on conservative blogs.

    Like the she's demanding they fire Schuster (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by katiebird on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:16:51 AM EST
    flap?

    Josh even printed the memo as proof and the fact that it didn't say any such thing didn't stop him (Josh) from the claim that it did.

    [ Parent ]

    This is why I don't read TPM anymore. (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by Anne on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:04:36 AM EST
    They did excellent work on the US Attorney firings, but their campaign coverage has tended toward the sensational headline and willingness to make something out of rumor and innuendo, and taking a more stenographic role as opposed to a disinterested observer role.

    (Which leads me to say that BTD's and Jeralyn's concerted efforts to apply a more disinterested observer standard, even while disclosing their leanings, has allowed a more thoughtful and analytic discussion in the comments.  Finding lefty blogs that are not Obama or Hillary echo chambers is a lot harder than it should be.)

    Russert brought up Farrakhan, Obama responded, Clinton opined that she didn't think "denounce" was strong enough, and Obama eventually agreed.  I fail to see how it is a bad thing to get a candidate to take a harder line on bigotry; both of them - one as a person of color, and one as a woman - who know first-hand what bigotry and prejudice are all about, should be setting a very high bar on these issues.

    As near as I can determine, the Obama-in-native-garb pic was never proven to have come out of the Clinton campaign.  There was a lot of parsing and fly-specking of Drudge's story, but those should not be the standards for blaming one candidate or the other for anything.

    Sadly, what Josh has written is exactly the kind of thing he used to rake others over the coals for doing; it has been disheartening to see so many blogs and bloggers become the thing they got into blogging to be a voice and a force against.


    [ Parent ]

    I think in TPM's case (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by Virginian on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:14:33 AM EST
    and a number of other blogs, it is a illustration of blogs gaining an audience. Like Fox has an audience they pander too, so do many of the blogs, and their success and viability (both economically and in regards to relevance).

    In some respects its the "inmates running the prison," but specifically in regards to Josh, he sold out his  "above it all equal opportunity muck-racker" persona to don the "Mr. Popular" persona.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:24:49 AM EST
    Not 100% sure about Josh pandering. Whatever his issue it, it seems genuinely his own. However, I've  felt for week that DKos has been pandering to all their new members by letting much of the foolishness go unchallenged. A form of passive pandering, if you will.

    [ Parent ]
    Ugh, I need to preview my posts. (none / 0) (#101)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:27:21 AM EST
    Sorry for all the typos. My wireless network is so slow during the day, I have been hitting post instead of preview just to save time.

    [ Parent ]
    Have you checked out the reader (none / 0) (#78)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:10:00 AM EST
    diaries at TPM? It is MUCH worse than Orange Republic.

    [ Parent ]
    is that even possible? (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by kangeroo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:40:07 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Its been rather sad to watch his blog (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by Virginian on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    degrade over the last number of months in terms of its ability to cover the issues accurately...this is just the latest in a slow slide downhill for a guy who was being trumpeted as an example of what good investigative blogs could do positively

    [ Parent ]
    Josh does get at least some (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:57:45 PM EST
    critical feedback from readers on his anti-Hillary crap.  I responded to his request for opinions on the "60 Minutes" thing, as did someone else I know, saying that it was ridiculous and words to the effect that it smacked of Hillary Derangement Syndrome.  He emailed me back, "That's just whining."

    So that's his attitude these days, apparently-- email me if you agree with me, but STFU if you don't.

    [ Parent ]

    Interesting... (none / 0) (#161)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:32:12 PM EST
    ... you're not the first person to post about a rather snippy reply email from Josh.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD, didn't you get the memo? (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:30:13 AM EST
    Everything wrong or evil in this world is the Clintons' fault.

    It's raining?  Blame the Clintons.

    Have a headache?  Blame the Clintons.

    Your girl friend left you?  Blame the Clintons.

    The press corps still sells this fantasy every day.  The public hasn't believed it for years.

    Hmm... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by mindfulmission on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:50:04 AM EST
    Yea - I really don't know what Josh is talking about.

    I can think of two things:

    • The picture, and yes, I do think that the picture can perpetuate ignorant fears of Obama being a Muslim, even though the attire was not Muslim at all.

    • There is a story going around saying that someone from the Clinton campaign (I believe it was a volunteer phone banker) referred to Obama as Osama bin Laden on "accident."  I am not sure about the veracity of the story, but it could be another thing that Josh is thinking about.

    Now... I am not posting things to support Josh, as I believe that Josh is being more than foolish to claim that the Clinton camp is pushing any of the "Farrakhan/Muslim/anti-Semitism stuff."  I am just trying to point out what Josh may be thinking.

    what Josh is thinking (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by andrys on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:37:06 AM EST
    That would be instant faith in anything Drudge reports.

    As mentioned above, for details of the photo and its distribution, see this page which tells how it came to be and how it was distributed for the 2 days before Drudge reported it.

    [ Parent ]

    Throwing the kitchen sink at Clinton (none / 0) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:09:54 AM EST
    or scorched Clinton is the new TPM motto?

    That seems to be what you are saying.

    [ Parent ]

    maybe... (none / 0) (#94)
    by mindfulmission on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:21:14 AM EST
    ... I am more just trying to figure out what he is thinking.

    I know... that is a pretty dangerous thing to think about.

    [ Parent ]

    Josh Marshall (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by garage mahal on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:00:29 AM EST
    As for the garb photo, the Clinton campaign denied it and the only source for it is Drudge. Is that the new Josh Marshall standard?

    Keep in mind, Drudge never said the Clinton campaign sent HIM the email. He just said it had been "circulated". Marshall also knew the Clinton campaign never asked for Schuster to be fired. But, those are 2 things I literally heard at my water cooler based off horribly shoddy and deceptive reporting. Nothing new here.

    josh (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Turkana on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:03:44 AM EST
    must read the daily kos wreck list.

    sadly (5.00 / 5) (#80)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:11:27 AM EST
    what I think this type of story does is take some of the legitimacy out of the left blogosphere--and not just in relation to the media, but because many once-members of said blogosphere will have a hard time believing any new stories that are broken by the likes of TPM and Kos.

    It's the same thing that happened with Drudge, where the story becomes about the person writing it rather than the subject of the story.

    What this election cycle has shown us is that the majority of the left blogosphere has become just as biased and unreliable as the msm.  Even Alter manages to come up with some basis for his nasty attacks.

    And Jeffrey Rosen quotes Kathleen Williy! (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by jawbone on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:24:02 AM EST
    Somerby covered this yesterday at dailyhowler.com.

    ROSEN (3/1/08): Hillary Clinton's conduct during the Clinton impeachment does not inspire confidence in her respect for privacy. Kathleen Willey, one of the women who accused President Clinton of unwanted advances, charges in a new book that Mrs. Clinton participated in the smear campaigns against her. A federal judge found that the Clinton White House had ''committed a criminal violation'' of Ms. Willey's privacy rights by releasing her private letters. (An appellate court later criticized the judge's ''sweeping pronouncements.'')
    SNIP
    For the record, the unnamed federal judge to whom Rosen refers is the famous Clinton-trasher, Royce Lamberth. (Stephanie Mencimer: "During the 1990s, judge Royce Lamberth earned a reputation as a Clinton basher on par with independent counsel Ken Starr.") For some reason, the fact that Lamberth once accused "the Clinton White House" of something--and was "later criticized"--is presented here as evidence against Hillary Clinton. Go ahead--just try to explain that.

    Clinton Derangement Syndrome? Hillary Hate? What are these people thinking?

    [ Parent ]

    Does the name FLUFFY mean anything to you??? (none / 0) (#177)
    by Ellie on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:48:36 PM EST
    Willey's a personal fave among those with a bad case of CDS. I really hope her book is on remaindered audio when summer rolls around**, and she narrates, so that I might enjoy some shrieking good, quality hammock time.

    The Fox and Friends morning program detailed charges in the book that Willey's cat, Bullseye, was the victim of a targeted hit by a Clinton-hired henchman.

    "A man, he was pretending to be a jogger, he came up to me and just asked did I ever find my cat?" Willey told the New York Sun, who also picked up the cat story Wednesday. "He mentioned my cat by name and [said], 'Yeah, that Bullseye was a really nice cat.'" Willey told the Sun the abducted cat was part of an intimidation plan organized by the Clintons after she was called to testify in Paula Jones' sexual harassment suit against the president.

    "But it didn't stop there," said Fox News host Brian Kilmeade.

    "Does the name Fluffy mean anything to you?

    A year later she bought a cat, named it Fluffy. That cat ended up dead as well underneath the porch. She thinks somehow, and she claims somehow, the person who did this is linked back to Hillary."

    Willey appears to found her accusations on the word of conservative talk show host Melanie Morgan, who says she had a conversation in which a private investigator named Jack Palladino all but admitted to being the culprit in the cat business. "The only regret that I had about the whole thing was that Hillary did not pay me in a timely fashion," the P.I. allegedly said, according to Morgan's account. (Fox News airs bizarre claim that Hillary ordered hit on cats
    David Edwards and Jason Rhyne, Raw Story, November 7, 2007)

    Gosh, wonder why Melanie Morgan's station let her go.. (via Crooks and Liars)

    So long, farewell, auf weidersein good night, Mel. And don't let the door hitcha where the Good Lord splitcha. And in related insanity from Michelle Malkin (also via Crooks and Liars)

    I know she'll land on her feet.

    ::: eye wipe :::

    Mercy!

    **Heck, it's probably already remaindered and should fetch $0.25 on the lawn sale circuit by June.

    [ Parent ]

    I guess (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:14:19 AM EST
    It's the Obama rules and the Clinton rules rolled all together.

    You know Obama can't do no wrong and Clinton is the root of all evil.

    Josh Marshall & TPM . . . (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by Doc Rock on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:16:13 AM EST
    . . . lost its equilibrium and sense of balance to become an Obama noise box.  A remarkable fall from grace.  I can't read his blog any more.

    well, I agree with you, but there (none / 0) (#93)
    by MarkL on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:20:57 AM EST
    are many complaints in the comments over there about the pro-Hillary bias.


    [ Parent ]
    ?! it boggles the mind. (none / 0) (#119)
    by kangeroo on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:46:58 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    two front battle (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by lily15 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:17:59 AM EST
    Real Democrats, who actually have principles, are fighting two fronts...the right wing and the Obama wing...both of them distort and outright lie to achieve their objectives. Because in their world view, the end always justify the means.  These lies need to be cataloged...and these liars exposed for what they really are...fake progressives.  Because pushing fake narratives is really a measure of their character after all.  Needless the say, the pushback from those who know what they are doing, needs to be vigorous. They should not go unpunished.

    Clinton has increased ad spending (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Prabhata on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:18:57 AM EST
    HRC has simply battled back with good ads.  Obama outspent her in WI 4 to 1 and was able to win easily.  That game is over.  HRC has received lots of contributions and has been able to counter Obama's campaign of words.

    Game Over? (none / 0) (#124)
    by plf1953 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:51:43 AM EST
    I hope not and I don't think so.

    Did you mean to say "game not over?"

    [ Parent ]

    Tabloid sells (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:21:51 AM EST
    that's all it is.

    I hope they're making skads of money this election cycle, because that's all they'll have now that they've sold their credibility.

    Did Josh Skip Journalism 101? (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by JoeCHI on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:32:57 AM EST
    Marshall just keeps embarrassing himself.  Sigh.

    Why are we even discussing this? (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by ChrisO on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:40:05 AM EST
    This isn't a criticism of BTD, but I find it amazing that a supposedly legitimte site like TPM (which has been my first read in the morning for quite a while) can make a blanket statement like that, and we are left to figure out what the hell he's talking about. I think it's beyond scurrilous to just throw out a charge like "The Farrakhan/Muslim/anti-Semitism stuff, which Clinton has pushed in concert with key press outlets," without feeling any obligation to back up the comment. Josh has really gone off the deep end. I think he's been reading too many of the Hillary hate comments on his site.

    If I had to guess... (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:29:33 PM EST
    ... without much evidence, which seems fashionable in the blogosphere, I'd say that most of the A-list bloggers read each other and reinforce their own viewpoints. Combined with their manifest disdain for the traditional news outlets, they quickly end up in an isolated echo chamber.

    TPM used to be a giant--huge not only in the liberal blogsophere, but also gaining real prominence in the mainstream news as well. The US Attorney scandal should have been their star turn. But instead, they've turned into a provincial soapbox like everyone else.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah, (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by frankly0 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:51:41 AM EST
    One thing that struck me as pretty obvious was that if Hillary really had in mind to sew doubts about whether Obama was really a Christian, would she wait until she's asked essentially the same question multiple times before those doubts get expressed? How could she possibly have known a priori that she'd be faced with the same question more than once? How could she have deliberately planned this?

    Never thought I'd say this, but (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Jim J on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:53:22 AM EST
    it's amazing how the Obama "phenomenon" has mirrored the Bush campaign in its uncanny ability to convince everyone around it to actively work against their own self-interest.

    TPM used to be a damn good blog, but Josh is now mortgaging his future for pennies on the dollar to get a short-lived spike in traffic as an Obama echo chamber. How do you recover from such an obvious devolution? (I'd say the same about dKos, but it jumped the shark long ago.)

    Ditto with Moveon.org, which lost so much credibility by backing Obama after he stabbed them in the back on the Petraeus thing.

    Bush used to make people do self-destructive, idiotic short-term moves like that. Obama seems to be much better at it than even Bush is/was.

    Axelrod Strategy (none / 0) (#168)
    by Practically Lactating on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:48:56 PM EST
    The parallels with the Bush campaign are not a coincidence.

    Obama's Narrator

    There are a variety of problems of political communication that the industry's operatives spend their time obsessing over. One, which obsessed James Carville, is persuasion: How do you persuade people who believe one thing to believe another? A second, the big one for Joe Trippi, is commitment: What motivates your party's loyalists to go to the polls in larger numbers? But Axelrod has become animated by a more basic challenge of political communication, the problem of breaking through, of sounding different and new. Axelrod says that the way to cut through all the noise is to see campaigns as an author might, to understand that you need not just ideas but also a credible and authentic character, a distinct politics rooted in personality. ("David breaks them down," Peter Giangreco, a Chicago direct-mail consultant who often works with Axelrod, told me. "Who is your mother? Who is your father? Why are you doing this?") This, Axelrod says, is what Karl Rove understood about George W. Bush. "One of the reasons Bush has succeeded in two elections," Axelrod says, "is that in his own rough-hewn way he has conveyed a sense of this is who I am, warts and all."

    From a distance, he watched Karl Rove help George Bush win two terms as president by "understanding that every election is a reaction to the last president" and then in 2004 by "figuring out how to make Bush's stubbornness into a political virtue."