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More On Civil Liberities, Obama And Jeffrey Rosen

Big Tent Democrat

Scott Lemieux replies to my post on his post about Jeffrey Rosen on Obama on civil liberties. Did you follow that? Hope so. Anyway, Scott writes:

Armando, like several commenters, isolates this passage in the Jeffrey Rosen op-ed I blogged about yesterday and uses it to reject the entire analysis:

Mr. Obama . . . is not a knee-jerk believer in the old-fashioned liberal view that courts should unilaterally impose civil liberties protections on unwilling majorities. [. . .]

The first sentence is, indeed, normatively problematic, and I don't think I can be criticized for being unwilling to criticize Rosen's criticisms of liberal "judicial activism."

Correct. Scott has, like me, been a severe critic of Rosen on this score. That is why his overlooking this critical passage surprised. In this followup, Lemieux rejects Rosen's view of Obama on this point. For the record I did not reject the entire analysis, I merely isolated this passage as the most critical and problematic part of Rosen's piece. I also must quibble with the rest of Lemieux's analysis:

Lemieux writes:

The second point is more important, and a strong point in Obama's favor. Rather than hoping (usually in vain) that the courts will correct bad legislation, Obama actually tried to make bad legislation better in civil liberties terms.

(Emphasis supplied.) It is noteworthy to me that Lemieux is arguing that whether a President believes in legislative civil liberty remedies is more important than whether a President will appoint judges and Supreme Court Justices who believe the courts should be a bulwark for the protection of civil liberties. Presidents come and go in 4 or 8 years and have to work with the Congresses as they exist. But when it comes to judges and Justices, they appoint people for life. Do the names Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts mean so little now?

And I think it is important to note that Lemieux's endorsement of this Rosen article was not unique from Obama supporters. Consider this post from Hilzoy, approvingly citing the passage in question. Her failure to recognize the problems in Rosen's piece, indeed in not even acknowledging that Rosen is one of the most virulent opponents of civil liberties because of his view that courts should not be bulwarks for protecting civil liberties, is not encouraging. Lemieux gets it. Most Obama supporters seem not to.

I also think Lemieux is wrong when he writes:

Rosen most certainly has a point empirically: as history quite conclusively demonstrates without allies in other parts of the government the courts are, in fact, extremely unreliable protectors of civil liberties. The judiciary has done very little to rein in Bush's assertions of arbitrary executive power, and this is predictable; without a better civil libertarian in the White House this trend will continue.

I think history does not bear this out at all, except as a function of Presidents naming the right type of Justices. The Warren Court revolution did not happen because Ramsey Clark was the Attorney General. It happened because the Court was comprised of Warren, Brennan, Marshall etc.

Indeed I believe Lemieux disproves his own argument:

[S]ubsequent Courts appointed by more conservative presidents have gutted most Warren Court landmarks. Unlike Rosen, I don't regard this as a largely salutary development, but Rosen is certainly right that this is what happens when the political branches aren't committed to civil liberties.

No. This is what happens when conservative Presidents appoint Supreme Court Justices who do not believe that the Court should be a bulwark of civil liberties. Nixon, Reagan and Bush as Presidents did not gut the role of the Court. It was when they appointed Justices that they gutted the role of the courts.

Finally, Lemieux argues that:

The most famous opinions of the last 50+ years, Brown and Roe, were always supported by national majorities, and even when the Warren Court's school prayer and criminal procedure decisions were counter to majority opinion they had significant support in the executive branch.

(Emphasis supplied.)I do not accept that. When Brown and Roe were decided, there was no clear national consensus on segregation or a woman's right to choose. More importantly, I am certain the Justices had no idea if there was a national consensus on these issues when they decided these cases. Was it countermajoritarian? Perhaps not. But it hardly embodied the clear consensus of the public. As for the school prayer and criminal procedure cases, I doubt that what the Johnson Administration thought about those cases entered the thinking of the Justices, other than those with close personal ties to LBJ himself (that is another story.)

In closing, I want to say that I agree with Lemieux that Rosen is wrong about Obama's view of the role of the courts. But Lemieux goes too far when he pretends the issue is of lesser importance. In my view, there is nothing more important to determining a potential President's commitment to civil liberties.

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  • Display: Sort:
    One thing I don't feel I know. . . (none / 0) (#1)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 08:26:44 PM EST
    enough about is Obama's philosophy in appointing judges.  Your argument, as I understand it, is that the statement

    The second point is more important, and a strong point in Obama's favor. Rather than hoping (usually in vain) that the courts will correct bad legislation, Obama actually tried to make bad legislation better in civil liberties terms.

    indicates that Obama would not search for and appoint judges that consider civil liberties a priority in legal enforcement.  But I think that's a somewhat tortured reading of that statement.  To me it indicates a legislator who doesn't cede his responsibility for legislatively enforcing civil liberties to the courts with a "that will never get through the courts" attitude.

    It doesn't mean that he believes the courts shouldn't enforce civil liberties, simply that historically they've frequently disappointed in that regard.  It's not necessarily at odds with appointing strong civil libertarians to the bench as an executive.

    That said, I repeat my first statement which is that I don't know what Obama's judicial appointments philosophy will be.  I only know that Lemieux's statement as excerpted in this post don't appear to me to indicate that he's unsympathetic to roll of the courts in supporting civil liberties.

    No (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 08:29:18 PM EST
    I think he would. I wish I had stronger evidence to that effect though. My quibble was with the oohing and aahing for Rosen's piece that completely ignored this pernicious passage. Lemiuex knows better, or so I thought.

    His response to me required a response to restate my views on this as I think it is one of the most important things a President can do, especially with the age of some of the Justices.

    Parent

    Personally. . . (none / 0) (#3)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 08:32:23 PM EST
    Lemiuex knows better, or so I thought.

    I wouldn't take the word of an NHL player on any matter of jurisprudence that doesn't involve sticking.  That many knocks on the head, and I'm surprised he remembers the difference between Democrats and Republicans.

    Parent

    Many NHL players (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 08:36:57 PM EST
    to choose from. Some of them may be legal scholars.

    Parent
    Which NHL Lemieux is he referring to? (none / 0) (#17)
    by scribe on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:12:22 PM EST
    Mario is God incarnate (at least in Pittsburgh and to Pens fans), but Claude, um, not so much....

    Parent
    especially not (none / 0) (#16)
    by Nasarius on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:11:40 PM EST
    When they're freedom-hating Canucks.

    Parent
    Court History (none / 0) (#4)
    by call me Ishmael on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 08:32:27 PM EST
    while I agree with your central point about the importance of the question of judicial appointments I don't think that your history really supports your position.  As a general historical reality the courts (and the supreme court especially) have not been bastions of civil liberties or progressive causes--the Warren Court was the great exception.  That is why it was so hated by conservatives.  The reason I mention this is that I think that taking the Warren Court as typical has led people to overestimate the help they can get from courts as opposed to politics.  I agree that we should think carefully about who Obama or Clinton will appoint.  But if we count on courts to protect us on the model  of the Warren Court we will be waiting till some future generation.

    To me that is like saying (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 08:34:41 PM EST
    FDR did not change the Presidency and the federal government.

    The Warren Court changed the role of the Court forever IF we insist upon it.

    Parent

    And perhaps more importantly ... (none / 0) (#7)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 08:48:53 PM EST
    the President isn't a legislator.  But he does appoint judges.

    And if you don't think judges have an effect on civil liberties (your rights) look at a history of the courts actions on Fourth Amendment protections.

    Here you see what a long impact a president can have on civil liberties with their federal judges still in place long after they leave office.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 08:52:31 PM EST
    And Presidents can insist that the courts retain the Warren Court role.

    That is the history.

    Parent

    History? (none / 0) (#19)
    by call me Ishmael on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:07:49 PM EST
    actually your continuing to insist "that is the history" isn't very persuasive.  FDR changed the Presidency and the Federal Government but whether it is for ever is an open question and is the point that those who are insisting on political remedies are actually making--he changed it insofar as he was able to build a lasting coalition in favor of a certain form of government.  That coalition started to go under during the late 1960s and 1970s and a New Deal now seems almost utopian.  Nor did the Warren Court have the same long lasting effects.  Presidents can only insist on the Court within certain limits--as Eisenhower and Nixon found out.  The point about the Federalist Society is correct.  They didn't just seek to appoint judges but to create a cadre of legal actors to connect to politicians and undermine the residual consensus on the legal regulatory system.  There is no question that appointing SC Justices is important--and with the Roberts court structured as it is very important.  But the notion that the Warren Court changed the role of the courts is reaching at straws.

    Parent
    But has the court (none / 0) (#10)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:03:01 PM EST
    been a bulwark to protect our civil liberties since the Warren Court?  The Berger was simply a wind down of the Warren Court.  The Reinquist Court was a mixed bad.  The Roberts Court hasn't shown much promoise so far.

    Certainly these courts haven't been reactionary and annulled the gains from the Warren Court but I wonder how much of that is simply because the Democrats have controlled the Senate for most of the past 40 years.  

    Parent

    Not of late (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:05:36 PM EST
    But even in this era, it took the Court to stop Bush on unlawful detentions. Hamdan, Hamdi and Rasul.

    It sure was not the Congress.

    Parent

    Fair point (none / 0) (#14)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:08:37 PM EST
    And a good example of when the courts need to step up to the plate.

    Parent
    Yeah... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Alec82 on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:13:12 PM EST
    ...but when you read those decisions and consider how narrowly they were decided, and how divided the Court was, and the big questions left, don't you find yourself wondering, is Justice Kennedy having a good day or a bad day?

    Parent
    Federalist Society (none / 0) (#15)
    by Alec82 on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:09:08 PM EST
    Okay, the elephant in the room with that comment is the Federalist Society.  Their laboratory experiment in Michigan shows just how disastrous this country will become if the achieve a real majority on the SC.  This machiavellian manipulation of legal analysis has been decades in the making, they are financed and fueled by the scariest people imaginable and their corporatism is barely disguised.  I have listened to their speakers sell outright lies to captive audiences while a standby wife praises "the old days with Nino."  I believe the rising stars in that group are best described as monied theocrats.  

     But we've already ceded the ground, haven't we?  It is tort reform, not corporate handouts, as Nader likes to remind people.  The discourse has shifted so far to the right that Brown was, ironically, used to narrow Brown's holding.  Roe survives, but in tatters.  Judges never seem to see a Fourth Amendment violation they can't rubber stamp on some theory.  

     The only progressive landmark case we've seen in the last decade was Lawrence, where the Court finally said the government couldn't prohibit sex between two consenting adults, a reversal of their wrong-headed turn in 1986.  What an accomplishment.  

     Oh, and now we have some cases coming up that explore such issues as indefinite imprisonment and the ability of the US government to execute Americans by using puppet foreign governments to try and sentence them without any evidence...that's progress!

    Parent

    Ruth Kaplan (none / 0) (#9)
    by ruthinor on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:01:04 PM EST
    Apparently, Rosen has used Kathleen Willey (remember her??) as a source of information.  I wouldn't trust ANYTHING he says.

    as this paragraph from a Rosen column shows: (none / 0) (#12)
    by ruthinor on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:06:23 PM EST
    "Hillary Clinton's conduct during the Clinton impeachment does not inspire confidence in her respect for privacy. Kathleen Willey, one of the women who accused President Clinton of unwanted advances, charges in a new book that Mrs. Clinton participated in the smear campaigns against her. A federal judge found that the Clinton White House had "committed a criminal violation" of Ms. Willey's privacy rights by releasing her private letters. (An appellate court later criticized the judge's "sweeping pronouncements.")"

    The man has no scruples.

    Arguably, the important decision a President makes (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailorman on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:07:46 PM EST
    is the appointments to the bench.  We live in an era dominated by conservative appointees to the bench whether that be at the trial court, appellate court or the supreme court.  In the last 40 years, republicans have had the appointment power for 28 of those years.  It has had a telling effect on our jurisprudence.

    Bush had the foresight to appoint young men to SCOTUS.  With so many of the Justices reaching a very advanced age, the next President, especially if a conservative, will so dramatically shape the future that age old bulwarks like stare decisis will be only of historical interest.  

    Watch out for the 1780's here we come, whether you want us back or not.  That is unless SCOTUS needs to be active to install a President in the 21st century.

    If for no other reason than appointment of judges, this election is so imperative for PROGRESSIVES to prevail.

    Somewhat OT (apologies) (none / 0) (#20)
    by NJDem on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:22:09 AM EST
    but check out HRC's answer to this question.  I would think that this answer makes it obvious which candidate has civil liberties on the mind.  LINK

    I posted this (albeit rather old article) on the open thread, so feel free to delete.  But I don't recall a thread about this article.  Doesn't she nail this answer?