Petition Online to Seat FL and MI Delegates

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:40:44 PM EST
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An online petition drive by Florida and Michigan voters to have their delegates seated so their votes count has generated 8,500 signatures so far. The goal is 10,000. The petition will be delivered to Howard Dean and the DNC.

2.2 million voted in Florida and Michigan. The petition argues: [More...]

On January 15, 2008, 572,129 Michigan Democrats voted in the Democratic primary even though two of the three frontrunners for the nomination had voluntarily pulled their names from the ballot. On January 29, 2008, 1.7 million Floridians voted in the Democratic primary despite being told repeatedly that their votes wouldn't count.

We voted in record numbers because we are deeply concerned about the future of our country. We are thinking about the economy, national security, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, energy independence, the environment, and health care. We are not concerned with primary schedules.

We are private citizens, and we are not responsible for the tug-of-war between the state Democratic parties and the DNC. We demand that our votes be counted now before the primary season ends. We will not be subjected to another vote or a caucus.

UPDATED ON MARCH 20, 2008: A 50-50 split of delegates is also unacceptable.

It concludes:

Do not leave Florida and Michigan voters out in 2008. Count our votes now, or don't count on us to vote in November.

The Democratic party is in a pickle. Refusing to count the Michigan and Florida voters risks alienating up to 2.2 million voters in November. It's also widely perceived as undemocratic and an arbitrary punishment. I've argued repeatedly here for rescinding the penalty now, counting the votes and seating the delegates per the January primaries. If you're from Florida or Michigan, now it's your turn. Here's your chance.

The party may not listen, but maybe the superdelegates from all states will take it into consideration.

Update: Taylor Marsh asks, Why Won't Obama let Michigan and Florida revote?

bq. Every single Democratic senator and congress person is a "superdelegate." Howard Dean also is responsible for this mess. If they haven't heard from you, now is a good time to let them know that you believe Michigan and Florida's votes need to be counted. Or are we really going to let Obama give John McCain this gift?

< Where Kos And I Agree . . . And Disagree | Obama Releases Tax Returns, A Pittance for Charity >

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Petition Online to Seat FL and MI Delegates | 46 comments (46 topical)

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two questions: (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by cpinva on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:09:52 PM EST

1. i've never really been quite clear as to how this whole thing got started. why did the DNC set this rule up to begin with? what was the logic behind it, and how did IA, VT, SC and NH rate exemptions from it?

just point me in the right direction.

2. while i'll more than happily sign a petition, send and email or make a phone call, wouldn't 100,000 have more of an impact? 10K out of 2.2M is less than 1/2 of 1% of the total voters.

there are times i suspect that the leaders of the democratic party have a group career death wish. this is one of those times.

The Florida vote on moving the primary up (5.00 / 2) (#16)
by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:15:42 PM EST

was a poison pill added to the vote for a paper trail for electronic ballots.

If you're against the Democrats voting to move the primary up, are you also against their vote for a paper trail for electronic ballots? If not, you understand the dilemma they faced.

Don't bother answering me, since I think we'll both be deleted for being off-topic.

I'm from Florida (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by gish720 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:15:55 PM EST

And I signed with pleasure. I think the vote should count no matter what sort of convoluted reasoning goes into saying the people's votes should not count. What a massive pile of horse pucky. I mean really...I hope I would want the votes to count no matter who I was for. How in the world did Clinton know this race would be so close? Every vote should count. It strikes me as absurd that people would argue against their own vote from being counted.

You should know then (5.00 / 2) (#18)
by ruffian on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:17:54 PM EST

that the Dems voted for the primary date change because the Republicans attached it to the same bill that got us our paper trails for the voting machines. Would you have had the Dems vote against the paper trails they had worked hard to bring to a vote?

The DNC should have taken this into account when they leveed the punishment.

People are complaining (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by Step Beyond on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:25:08 PM EST

I don't find this issue important because of Clinton or in spite of her. And whether any candidate agrees or not is not in any way a determining factor in whether or not I think I should have a vote in the selection of the Democratic nominee.

On a side note - nobody here is complaining about seating our delegates.

There have been polls that show otherwise.

Poll

Voters said that if the controversy is not resolved and Florida Democratic voters do not have a voice in choosing the Democratic nominee, only 63 percent will still vote with Democrats.

A whopping 31% of Democrats polled 3/10 by InsiderAdvantage for Florida Insider say they would be "less likely" to vote for the Democratic nominee if Florida's delegates aren't seated at the national convention.

More than three out of four Florida Democrats say it's "very important" that Florida's delegates count toward the nomination, and one in four said they would be less likely to support the ultimate Democratic nominee if Florida's delegates don't count.

You think people could be more vocal in making sure our delegates are seated? How? People have asked for DNC donations refunded. 1.7 million bothered to vote for a candidate. People have said they won't vote for the nominee. People have sent email, letters and called the DNC. There have been 2 lawsuits. People have written letters to the editor and multiple blog posts. The people of Florida can not make the DNC seat the delegates any more than they could change the primary date. But they have clearly complained.

One More Floridian Signing The Petition (5.00 / 0) (#49)
by john horse on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 04:29:46 PM EST

I'm from Florida, I voted in the Florida primary, and I think my vote should count as much as those of you from other states.

Howard Dean can resolve this but for some reason he isn't. We should be fighting Bush, McCain, and the GOP instead of each other.

: we think your vote should (5.00 / 0) (#50)
by cpinva on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 04:49:51 PM EST

count as much as ours also john.

Signed (none / 0) (#1)
by diplomatic on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:45:45 PM EST

I signed the petition (none / 0) (#2)
by vigkat on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:50:00 PM EST

with the assumption that support from voters other than those who live in Michegan or Florida will be noted.

Yes. That was my question. Can anyone sign? (none / 0) (#13)
by derridog on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:10:45 PM EST

Yes! (none / 0) (#34)
by Joan in VA on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:45:39 PM EST

: Signed. Thanks. (none / 0) (#45)
by 0 politico on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:34:02 PM EST

signed, thanks for the opportunity (none / 0) (#3)
by RalphB on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:50:11 PM EST

Just about 1500 to go (none / 0) (#4)
by katiebird on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:54:31 PM EST

And 3 people had signed after me in the time it took to check.....

Thanks. Signed. (none / 0) (#5)
by Fabian on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:55:58 PM EST

I left a brief, sound bite worthy comment as well.

Signed (none / 0) (#7)
by kenoshaMarge on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:03:25 PM EST

And I would think that 10,000 would be a drop in the bucket once this gets rolling and people know about the petition.

Didn't sign (none / 0) (#8)
by rilkefan on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:03:51 PM EST

when I saw that it opposes revotes.

: shoot for the stars, land on the moon (none / 0) (#26)
by diplomatic on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:27:56 PM EST

Putting pressure on the DNC to resolve this situation is important. What this petition does is make it clear that it is unacceptable that a nominee be chosen without counting Florida.
The parties involved may come to see a re-vote as a more acceptable, middle position.

The petition says (none / 0) (#9)
by AF on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:04:23 PM EST

"We will not be subjected to another vote or a caucus."

Do people who signed the petition really mean this? You opposed re-votes?

I DID support re-votes (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by katiebird on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:19:37 PM EST

But how long do we let THAT game play out? Supposedly, they are off the table. If that's so, we've got to agree to seat the delegates we have.

I'm sick of playing this game.


Yes, I oppose a revote (none / 0) (#15)
by BarnBabe on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:13:50 PM EST

2.2 mil people voted. Why should they have to do that again? And if it is because someone tried to pull a sly thing in Michigan, then it really does not deserve a revote. AS IS.


yes, I did (none / 0) (#33)
by Jeralyn on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:43:06 PM EST

and explained many times why.


: I know you did, Jeralyn (none / 0) (#44)
by AF on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:13:04 PM EST

But you didn't find many takers -- not even the Clinton campaign.

So, I'm assuming you didn't vote at all, right? (none / 0) (#14)
by derridog on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:13:18 PM EST

Or did you vote for Obama and are now opposing any revote or seating of the delegates because he's your guy and you prefer to game the outcome to favor him, even if it means disenfranchising your state voters?

I'm assuming you're a Clinton supporter (none / 0) (#20)
by PaulDem on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:21:00 PM EST

Would you support seating the delegates if the outcome of the primaries favored Obama?

The time for this petition was last fall after the DNC voted to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates. Now it's just a self-serving ploy to bump up Clinton's delegate totals so she can make a more compelling argument to the superdelegates to use the Nuclear Option to overturn the pledged delegate contest results.

I'm not even a huge Obama supporter (never gave money, never volunteered) and these arguments really smack me as disingenuous.


I would (none / 0) (#24)
by nycstray on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:24:54 PM EST

I think it will make a difference in the GE.


Then the time was last fall (none / 0) (#36)
by PaulDem on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:47:46 PM EST

The facts of the situation have not changed since the DNC rules committee voted last year to strip Michigan and Florida of their delegates as a punishment for Michigan and Florida moving up their primaries in violation of DNC rules. The Michigan and Florida state parties had months to respond to this punishment by changing their nominating contest dates and chose to do nothing.

The voters who voted in these primaries knew their votes would not count. Other voters stayed home knowing their votes would not count. What happens to their right to select a nominee if we just seat the delegations as-is?


: I realize all of that, (5.00 / 0) (#46)
by nycstray on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:47:34 PM EST

but I just think it was bloody stupid to strip 100% of the delegates. And Fla was kinda underhanded (from what I know) by putting the date change on the same bill/ballot as the paper trail.
And I think the party pays for the stupidity in the fall. So that is why I would support a re-vote or some type of resolution no matter which candidate benefits. President McCain just doesn't work for me.

I always thought it was ridiculous to (none / 0) (#32)
by derridog on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:39:32 PM EST

disenfranchise two major states. I agreed with Kos, who said last January, before he drank the Koolaid, that the DNC wouldn't dare not seat these delegates and that it would be taken care of by the rules committee.

I certainly believe that Florida, especially, should be counted because all the candidates had their names on the ballot and only Obama ran ads there. I am more torn about Michigan, but I agree that Edwards and Obama chose to take their names off the ballot and, it wasn't like there wasn't an option for their voters to choose. In fact, they were urged by Obama to vote uncommitted and many did (why would he do that or run ads in Florida, if he really believed that these votes would never count?). In any case, if the votes were apportioned they way they stood at the time of the election, Obama would be getting all of Edwards' votes, as well as Gravel's and Richardson's and Biden's and Dodd's (all of whom were on the ballot). That is more than fair to him and could very well make up for the Dems who decided to go play games in the Republican primary.

In any case, as to your question --yes, I am a Hillary supporter, although I was an Edwards supporter and before that a Gore supporter. I think that she is the best candidate remaining.
I also believe that the Democratic Party would be shooting itself in the foot not to count these ballots, whoever won. In fact, I was for having a revote, even though it didn't appear that Hillary would do as well in a revote as she did in the original vote. It was Obama who squelched that idea. He apparently doesn't want to take any chances, but would prefer to just have votes he didn't earn handed to him or else Hillary's earned ones taken away. If that happens, there is no way that people will consider this election legitimate. I've voted for Dems in every election since Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964. I will choose only to vote downticket, if Obama continues to bully his way to the primary victory using these tactics.


My understanding... (none / 0) (#40)
by PaulDem on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:55:12 PM EST

is that the legislatures of Florida and Michigan could not come to agreement to hold new primaries. Obama's support notwithstanding, the legislatures could have voted to hold new primaries but couldn't get that done.

Nevertheless the state parties could still hold party-run caucuses regardless of what the candidates agree to.

I still maintain the time to demand a change to the punishment of FL and MI was BEFORE we knew the outcome of the primaries.


: It's my understanding that the DNC gave both (none / 0) (#43)
by derridog on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:11:08 PM EST

candidates veto power and that the Obama supporters were actively working against any solution that didn't favor him (he's fine with 50/50 -so how is that not changing the rules?). Those people included their supporters in the legislatures.
I agree that the punishment of Florida and Michigan should have been challenged immediately, but it was widely discussed on the web at the time that it was very unlikely to stand, and that the rules allowed for amelioration of the problem by petitioning the rules committee and/or receiving a punishment of 1/2 of the delegates. Nowhere did it say that each candidate would be allowed veto power over the resolution. That was Dean and the DNC's doing. You can certainly say that Hillary wants this change because she won, but she is still on the right side of that argument. She was willing to count the existing votes or to have a revote, even though a revote would have been a riskier move. Obama, on the other hand, has been actively fighting either. But, of course, SHE'S to blame, not him!
Yes, of course, Obama wants caucuses. He does well in caucuses because far fewer people can participate and those people tend to be well-off, college types and Dem activists, not the people that support Hillary (lower class, older women, hispanics, etc). In the Wyoming caucus only 7,000 people showed up. Compare this to the 1.7 million who voted in Florida. Please also note in this regard the results of the Washington State primary (which didn't count) versus the Washington State caucus which did.
In any case, your position hurts your own candidate. The polls show that 35% of the Democratic voters in Florida will not vote for the Dems if their votes aren't counted. The whole thing is nuts.

I didn't even know about this (none / 0) (#39)
by Joan in VA on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:55:11 PM EST

last Fall and I don't think I'm alone.


Thanks Jeralyn (none / 0) (#21)
by BarnBabe on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:22:05 PM EST

I will forward site to my Hillary friends for sure. It always give me a uplift when I see us taking some action.

I knew Bill Nelson was fighting (none / 0) (#22)
by ruffian on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:23:17 PM EST

to have the votes counted, all fall and until and after the primary. 1.7 million people voted because they thought somehow the votes would get counted. Hillary started fighting for it before thew primary also. Sure, I'll grant you that it was in her slef interest to do so - but Obama and Dean still fail to see that it is in their respective interests also.

: Yes, but Debbie Wasserman Schultz... (none / 0) (#27)
by sweetthings on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:29:16 PM EST

was fighting just as hard to NOT count them. And she's a Clinton co-campaign chair.
I get why people say Obama stood in the way of MI. (I don't agree, but I get why people think that.) But if anyone stood in front of Florida, it was Clinton.

I signed it! Thanks Jeralyn (none / 0) (#23)
by Mark Woods on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:24:47 PM EST

I'll post it in my UK blogs tomorrow -- they're read by some members of Democrats Abroad. We're still off work today after the long Easter bank holiday here in Cymru.

Legal question (none / 0) (#28)
by Saul on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:31:36 PM EST

Does a party either democrat or republican have the legal authority to trump the rights of citizens who want to vote. Seems that the right to vote and to have those votes counted cannot be dictated by any one else but the State in which the votes took place. The authority to defend that right IMO would be that it is an inherent right to vote and no one one can come in and say because we made these rules your votes do not count. Is their a deeper legal right on the side of MI and FL that we are overlooking which trumps the ruling of the DNC? Any legal scholars out there to include Jeralyn

: In a primary? (none / 0) (#31)
by sweetthings on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:34:44 PM EST

You bet. Parties have wide, wide discretion in how they select their candidates. Remember, this is a primary, not an election. Nobody has the right to say your vote does not count in the election, but in the primary, the party can do pretty much whatever it likes.

Recommend the diary at myDD (none / 0) (#29)
by jes on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:32:28 PM EST

here if you are a member there. The more people that see this the better.

Mission Accomplised! (none / 0) (#35)
by Radiowalla on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:47:30 PM EST

Signed! Thanks. Now I'll get busy emailing the petition to friends.

Radiowalla (none / 0) (#38)
by jes on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:52:48 PM EST

can you recommend the diary on mydd also - there are currently only three recommenders and I've seen you comment there.


: Done! nt (none / 0) (#47)
by Radiowalla on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 04:13:03 PM EST

I signed it too. (none / 0) (#37)
by derridog on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:48:01 PM EST

AFter all (none / 0) (#41)
by tek on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:00:03 PM EST

you sign the petition go to AOL.com and vote in the straw poll for Hillary! She's creaming Obama. Is that OT?

And if you donate to Hil today, you have a chance to see the Elton John concert free.

It doesn't (none / 0) (#42)
by tek on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:04:02 PM EST

seem like no Floridians are complaining because 25% of Florida Dems have said that if their votes don't count they aren't going to vote for the Dem ticket. Complaint or no?

I sign! (none / 0) (#51)
by eliza500 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:36:09 AM EST

Agree that the voters should not be disenfranchised.

Elizabeth Bennett