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By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:52:20 PM EST
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By Big Tent Democrat

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< Can Clinton Win The Popular Vote? | Open Thread >

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    Open Thread | 257 comments (257 topical)
    is it my imagination (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:53:46 PM EST
    or is a lot more thread being chewed up here lately?

    it's the new Obama folk (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Kathy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:56:12 PM EST
    determined to set the record straight.

    [ Parent ]
    Pre-fab. (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:56:56 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Totally! (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:37:36 PM EST
    Hot off the fax/e-mail fundraiser

    [ Parent ]
    Rather than (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:05:59 PM EST
    looking at past post that present the facts, they keep bringing up old discussions.

    Then the whole discussion starts again with the same results.

    [ Parent ]

    Isn't that the definition of insanity? (5.00 / 1) (#254)
    by ricosuave on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:21:14 PM EST
    Repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#259)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:25:13 PM EST
    we are stuck in "insanity"! LOL!

    [ Parent ]
    Framing of the Obama Strategy (5.00 / 8) (#6)
    by Athena on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:58:03 PM EST
    The MSM has it backwards.

    Obama has decided to seek a nomination with the aid of superdelegates, rather than elected delegates.  His refusal to participate in Florida and Michigan enfranchisement means that he would rather rely on getting a nomination with superdelegates, rather than those elected by the voters.

    Obama is pursuing an anti-democratic path to the nomination.  Contrary to the prevailing MSM narrative, it is Obama who is trying to ride the superdelegates to a nomination and avoid a full evaluation by the voters, not Clinton.

    you may be right (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:11:08 PM EST
    but he'll be sorrrrrrry.

    [ Parent ]
    Throwing so much junk out there (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by felizarte on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:19:55 PM EST
    hoping that people will get distracted from Rezko, Rev. Wright, NaftaGate/Powergate.

    The desperation is so obvvious.  They can sense that Hillary has the momentum.  There are no new converts and perhaps even a peeling away.

    [ Parent ]

    so, obama is unpatriotic, a muslim, (1.00 / 6) (#21)
    by cy street on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:12:01 PM EST
    anti-democratic and thief.  maybe it would be easier to throw the satan narrative out there.  keeping up with all of his flaws is becoming tiresome.

    [ Parent ]
    Can you not read or comprehend? No one has (5.00 / 6) (#22)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:13:40 PM EST
    said that in this thread.  Go someplace else if you want to start a fight.  This is Good Friday, let us have some fun.  

    [ Parent ]
    I think we shouldn't answer these posts... (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:31:56 PM EST
    ...for two reasons, 1)they are sucking up the open thread and 2) they are really just trying to provoke us.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:35:47 PM EST
    Due to the "Stay On Topic." rule, I find it easy to OT ignore comments, especially if they are apparently baiting, instigating or picking a fight.

    [ Parent ]
    fight? (1.00 / 5) (#34)
    by cy street on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:19:05 PM EST
    i do not fight with democrats.  i vote for them and the last time i checked, obama is still a democrat.

    wait for it.

    just in:  obama is a card carrying hezbollah member.

    [ Parent ]

    He is?! Oh my, that's not good. (none / 0) (#54)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:33:35 PM EST
    /s

    [ Parent ]
    You did not see all those claims (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:14:37 PM EST
    in this comment -- or on this blog.

    Apologize.

    [ Parent ]

    desperation (5.00 / 6) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:16:32 PM EST
    its going to get worse

    [ Parent ]
    After Pa (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:44:43 PM EST
    primary it is going to get worse! Looks like she is going to get delegates and popular vote by large %.


    [ Parent ]
    think (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:48:07 PM EST
    viscous cornered wounded animal

    [ Parent ]
    let's hope (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by diplomatic on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:32:24 PM EST
    But Obama also knows that if he could win Pennsylvania he gets the nomination right then and there.  He might try to "do anything to win"

    Unlike Hillary he has an entire TV network dedicated to making this happen. (NBC/MSNBC)

    [ Parent ]

    Obama has zero chance of winning PA (none / 0) (#258)
    by OxyCon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:25:12 PM EST
    Obama outspent Hillary 4-1 in Texas and Ohio and still lost.
    He can spend all the money he wants in PA and all he is doing is wasting all the money his contributors gave him.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't think he's trying to win PA (none / 0) (#265)
    by Rigelian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:28:40 PM EST
    I think he's trying to keep the margin reasonable and beat expectations and he can afford to make that investment.  Needless to say if Clinton competed across the board in earlier in the contest, she would not be in such a difficult position.  

    [ Parent ]
    well he needs to WIN Pennsylvania (none / 0) (#283)
    by diplomatic on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:55:44 PM EST
    to end the primary right then and there.  Cutting the margin of defeat won't be enough to take away Clinton's argument that she wins the big swing states and he once again failed to do so.

    [ Parent ]
    Also, when you realize (5.00 / 6) (#104)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:54:26 PM EST
    That on some blogs you no long have the Hillary supporters and so you have to go looking for them somewhere else to keep up the bickering.

    [ Parent ]
    I hadn't thought of that (5.00 / 6) (#147)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:16:23 PM EST
    but you are so right! They must be getting bored with agreeing with themselves!

    [ Parent ]
    Or bored with telling Whoppers (4.00 / 1) (#187)
    by ding7777 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:37:09 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes this is going on all over the Intertubes (none / 0) (#253)
    by OxyCon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:20:44 PM EST
    Obama's supporters are fanning out and, dare I say it, trolling blogs with very obnoxious and confrontational postings.
    They say Obama attracts the "youth vote", and unfortunately it seems they are out to prove it.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama's Superdelegate Reliance (5.00 / 7) (#29)
    by Athena on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:17:07 PM EST
    Basic political analysis here.  Pointing out that Obama will now place more reliance on the superdelegates to get a nomination is a necessary corrective to the prevailing meme that tarnished Clinton for using superdelegates.

    The tables have turned.  Obama is now willing to plead his case to superdelegates rather than submit to FL and MI voters.  It's very clear.

    [ Parent ]

    that narrative is already out there (none / 0) (#25)
    by diplomatic on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:14:32 PM EST
    or maybe you haven't Googled antichrist + Obama.

    You might be surprised at how many hits you get, lol.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama is afraid to (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by sas on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:59:10 PM EST
    have Democrats vote in Michigan and Florida.  He knows he'll lose them.

    I made a decision today not to vote for Obama, because in my view instead of doing it the right way, with all states in play, he wants to tap dance around it.  He's afraid.

    Not s leader for me.

    [ Parent ]

    actually as a voter it is your job to keep (none / 0) (#141)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:13:22 PM EST
    up with his negatives especially since you are a supporter. you are concerned with that right? i mean beyond rushing to refute it blindly.

    [ Parent ]
    Very good point. Obama and his campaign are (none / 0) (#124)
    by DemBillC on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:07:50 PM EST
    really the biggest Hypocrite's since George Bush and his posse. I did not trust George Bush and I do not trust Obama. His choice of friends such as
    slumlord Rezco and the wingut Rev Wright are very troubling. I do not feel I could back Obama in the
    general election.

    [ Parent ]
    Ditto, (none / 0) (#149)
    by felizarte on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:16:50 PM EST
    "a rose by any other name . . ."
    inexperience is a fact;
    inspirational? It is in the eye of the beholder.
    Talk plus $4.00 will get you a gallon of gas.

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree (none / 0) (#236)
    by Rigelian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:07:20 PM EST
    the reality of this primary is and has been that super delegates were going to ultimately decide this notwithstanding Florida or Michigan.  This would be true if Clinton ends up the nominee or Obama ends up the nominee.  

    [ Parent ]
    So true.... (none / 0) (#276)
    by Oje on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:41:58 PM EST
    And, there seems to be a new push to end the primary now to complement that strategy. From politico to atrios to TPM, the drumbeat for withdrawal once again resounds. And now that a childhood actress has denounced Clinton and Bill Richardson endorsed Obama, there seems to be no further point to the Democratic, and democratic, process. All those pesky women and Hispanics are now spoken for: Obama Roolz!

    [ Parent ]
    Local Philly Coverage (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:03:29 PM EST
    for the "Typical White Person" comment.

    funny, how many (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:09:50 PM EST
    times was "move on" in those comments.
    translation - you got me and I dont want to talk about this any more
    (Bill - even a stopped clock is right twice a day - O'Reilly)

    [ Parent ]
    What he meant was... (5.00 / 1) (#268)
    by ricosuave on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:30:44 PM EST
    How many of us are sick of having a president where the advisors have to come out and clarify what he really meant?  Seems to be another Obama-Bush similarity.  Do we need four more years of that?  From the article linked above:

    In an update, the blog quoted a clarification from Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt: "Barack Obama said specifically that he didn't believe his grandmother harbored any racial animosity but that her fears were understandable and typical of those often shared by her generation."

    According to this, it is not all white people who are racists, just old ones?

    [ Parent ]

    I noted that earlier (none / 0) (#280)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:47:25 PM EST
    He was just reassuring his youth vote his doesn't hold their parents views against them?  He already lost the closed minded old lady vote...

    [ Parent ]
    Obama, Clinton, NAFTA, and Iraq (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Manuel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:04:26 PM EST
    Let's see.  Hillary made some public comments in support of the Clinton's administration's NAFTA position.  Obama downplayed his support for the war when Kerry was running.  Where is the difference?

    Axelrod and Penn and all other campaign operatives are disgusting.

    I would make a different comparison (5.00 / 1) (#285)
    by ricosuave on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:56:52 PM EST
    Hillary was part of a team working on policy issues.  She disagreed on NAFTA and worked to ensure that her concerns were heard and understood.  She lost the argument with the rest of the group, and supported the administration in their efforts.  Nobody who keeps bringing up NAFTA honestly believes that she should have stormed out of the whitehouse, left Bill, railed against him on national TV, and killed his efforts in every other political area because they didn't take her side.  She pressed her argument, she lost, and she moved on to fight another day (hopefully Jan 22 of next year!).

    Contrast that with Obama and his recent travails.  He says he is disturbed by Wrights comments.  He had to be concerned about and know about the direct and personal insults his preacher gave to both Clintons, even in the unlikely case that he didn't know about the awards for Farrakhan, trips to Libya, vague statements that blacks should stop being afraid to mention Israel, US of KKK A, etc.  There is no evidence that Obama did anything about this.  He didn't leave the church (which would have been an odd first reaction anyway), but he also does not seem to have approached Rev. Wright about the matter, he doesn't seem to have given a speech in the church about why words matter and how we can better communicate our grievances (or even one similar to his speech the other day).  He has never written about the fact that this language troubled him, has never brought black and white ministers together to discuss race issues, has never attempted to shield his family from words he says he considers hateful.

    Hillary's words now and all accounts of her actions surrounding NAFTA (and everything else, really) are very consistent and tell the story of someone who felt strongly about an issue and let everyone know, but was mature enough to recognize that she lost without having to slash and burn everything around her.

    Obama's words now and his complete lack of action on race issues (and Iraq and healthcare and financial issues, etc) show a serious disconnect between his words and his actions.  This is further exacerbated in the case of NAFTA by his advisor's assurances to the Canadians or in the case of Iraq by his other (now former) advisor's backtracking on his whole Iraq plan.  His lack of leadership on all of these issues when he had the opportunties to deal with them (sending universal health care to death by committee in Illinois, silence before the racism in his church, complete lack of any action on Iraq between his 2002 speech and his 2007 start of the presidential run) speaks volumes beyond the soaring speeches he has given and the vague plans he has presented in this campaign.

    [ Parent ]

    Look at JMM's precious indulgence (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:11:54 PM EST
    Sadly, I must tell you that Hillary has no chance.

    I have respect left for the site, and for David Kurtz, but Marshall? What a sad decline.

    Your link doesn't appeat to be correct (none / 0) (#27)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:15:24 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Oops. (none / 0) (#31)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:17:25 PM EST
    link

    [ Parent ]
    this one will be hard for BTD to resist (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by diplomatic on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:19:42 PM EST
    he has been holding back on taking JMM to the woodshed.

    [ Parent ]
    you have to wonder what these folks (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:22:26 PM EST
    think is going to happen to their meal ticket blogs when this is over, Hillary is in the white house and all their current readers go back to the coffee shops and skateboard parks.

    [ Parent ]
    Their current readers will stay (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by diplomatic on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:32:57 PM EST
    I have no doubt in my mind that the majority will continue to continue to spew their Clinton hatred even if Hillary is our President and it will be hard pressed to distinguish the so-called progressive kool kids from right wing bloggers.

    Actually if you pay attention... at this moment the conservative bloggers treat Hillary with more respect and reality-based analysis than the left!

    [ Parent ]

    its true (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:36:55 PM EST
    its absolutely stunning.

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:48:15 PM EST
    Just like "big libs" Maureen Dowd and Frank Rich spent much of the '90s beating up on the Clintons and Gore, if Hillary wins, the "big blogs" will do the same.  Best way to get on MTP afterall.

    [ Parent ]
    I also (5.00 / 4) (#116)
    by sas on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:03:11 PM EST
    decided today that the Democratic left can go to hell, and I was a member before this.  I have never seen such hateful people.  I realized they are just as rigid as the conservative right.

    From now on it's the Independent center for me.

    The Democratic party has taken women for granted for too long.

    [ Parent ]

    There are good Democrats (5.00 / 1) (#267)
    by dianem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:30:27 PM EST
    Every time I feel like abandoning the party, I think about Bill Clinton's Global Initiative, and Jimmy Carter's promotion of Habitat for Humanity. I could list a dozen Democrats off the top of my head who work hard to make a difference in the world, not to make a profit for themselves and their friends like so many Republican leaders. Don't let the Obamabots get you down - I suspect most of the Obama supporters who truly fit into that category are trolls who are using this campaign to feed their need for conflict.

    [ Parent ]
    I've had that epiphany myself (5.00 / 1) (#273)
    by OxyCon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:37:55 PM EST
    What always motivated me politically was my utter revulsion of the far right wing agenda in this country. I could always tolerate the extreme far left.
    But after reading and seeing what has been going on in the Liberal blogoshpere on sights I used to frequent, such as Americablog, Kos, TPM, DU, Huffpo, and other smaller blogs, I can honestly say I agree with you. These far leftist aren't a whole lot better than the ignorant right wingers I've been battling for so long.
    If my candidate Hillary loses, I think I will be cured of politics. I know I will never, EVER have anything to do with those aforementioned blogs again. I'll most likely move on and drop out of the discussion.

    [ Parent ]
    Irony (none / 0) (#282)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:55:11 PM EST
    More irony, I find them not to be real lefties.  They have diluted left politics to the politics of coolness.  They choose the left issues they like and dump others.  They have no class identity or solidarity.  

    [ Parent ]
    who was it that said (none / 0) (#286)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:58:34 PM EST
    you become what you hate?

    [ Parent ]
    Um (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by dissenter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:43:16 PM EST
    Not vote for Obama for president because he is clearly unqualified.

    [ Parent ]
    One other thing (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by dissenter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:44:08 PM EST
    I am supposedly the educated creative class.

    I am still not voting for him.

    [ Parent ]

    I am of the educated creative class, no supposed (none / 0) (#110)
    by nycstray on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:59:20 PM EST
    about it ;) I suddenly have the urge to put it on a T-shirt to stop my personal confusion over the stereotypes the media and Obama have pinned on me.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by dissenter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:51:14 PM EST
    Is not qualified. End of story. I'm not voting for American Idol and I'm not voting for John McCain. I don't however, OWE Barack Obama my vote.

    Further, I don't even think he is a democrat.

    If I am hated in blogosphere so be it. I spend most of my time in war zones and I'm not voting for someone who clearly has serious judgment problems.

    And I am not alone.

    [ Parent ]

    no (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:53:49 PM EST
    you are not
    I have said I will vote for Obama but believe it or not the "typical white person" thing could be the deal killer for me.
    that is an unacceptable statement.  from anyone.  about anyone.
    period.  end of story.


    [ Parent ]
    Well, if it's Obama vs. McCain, the (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:51:36 PM EST
    choice is between someone dangerously unqualified, or just plain dangerous. Yuck.

    [ Parent ]
    In a war zone (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by dissenter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:54:16 PM EST
    They are equally dangerous my friend.

    [ Parent ]
    If Obama didn't exude such confidence (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:56:27 PM EST
    about what the military could accomplish in Afghanistan and Pakistan, I'd be less worried.

    [ Parent ]
    I think its his "exuding" (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:00:10 PM EST
    about Pakistan that has a lot of people worried.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't worry, he'll have good advisers. (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:08:20 PM EST
    In fact, he promises to use people from the Bush I administration. I'm sure Bush's Sec Def. would be happy to give Obama advice.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly why one should worry (none / 0) (#169)
    by felizarte on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:26:45 PM EST
    he can't seem to keep away people like Rezko and Wright in his inner circle. That's what they said about Bush when he was cheered for having Cheney as his mentor in foreign policy.

    [ Parent ]
    His Israel statement shocked me. (none / 0) (#145)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:15:20 PM EST
    I'll agree that Israel is an ally, but we need to deal with many Islamic powers in the region about the P/I conflict and Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan.

    The Middle East is a whole lot bigger than Israel.

    [ Parent ]

    Can you tell me which statement you (none / 0) (#148)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:16:26 PM EST
    are referring to?

    [ Parent ]
    Daman, can't find the quote. (none / 0) (#203)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:42:40 PM EST
    But looking over the google results, I think Obama has wavered on the whole Israel/ME question.

    It all depends who he is talking to as to what he says and how he phrases it.

    [ Parent ]

    Ok, if you find it any time later, let (none / 0) (#205)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:44:11 PM EST
    me know, thanks!


    [ Parent ]
    I can't get the whole article. (none / 0) (#241)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:10:20 PM EST
    There is an article in the WaPo by Dana Milbank on 03/17 covering a meeting of Clinton's Eagleburger, McCain's Lewis and Obama's last minute pick Kurtzer.  

    My link to the archive isn't working and I can only get one page...  Here are a couple of clips.

    [The skepticism continued through the question time. Daroff said he had "heard in the hallways here" that Obama "doesn't see the U.S.-Israel relationship as much of the mainstream of the Senate or the Jewish community sees it."

    Kurtzer blamed such sentiment on "attack dogs" and writers of scurrilous e-mails. "He's right within the mainstream of American society and Jewish community concerns," TBA said.]

    [Next question to Kurtzer: Obama's assertion that he needn't have a 'Likud'view" -- that of Israel's right-wing party -- to be pro-Israel. Kurtzer explained that Obama wanted to see a "plurality of views." Silence in the room.
    To that, Lewis retorted: "The role of the president of the United States is to support the decisions that are made by the people of Israel. It is not up to us to pick and choose from among the political parties." The audience members applauded.

    Eagleburger piled on. "There's a distinction between those you do talk to," he said, "and those who declare themselves as intent on the destruction of the state of Israel. And if that's their policy, I think we ought not talk to them." More applause.

    A conference attendee from Richmond pressed Kurtzer on Obama's "judgment about not disavowing Reverend Wright's views earlier." Another question prompted a back-and-forth about whether Obama had been advised by Brzezinski, who won the enmity of pro-Israel groups for, among other things, accusing Israel of the "killing of hostages" in Lebanon.

    "I'm not Brzezinski's spokesperson," Kurtzer demurred. And after yesterday, he may think twice before being Obama's TBA again.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (none / 0) (#214)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:50:01 PM EST
    At one point he appeared to be more sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians than the usual US policy, but now he is as mainstream as HRC, in that the defense of Israel (our major allies) is priority above all.

    [ Parent ]
    That was the gist. (none / 0) (#218)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:54:21 PM EST
    Israel is our #1 bestest buddy!  Their security is our top priority!

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#232)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:05:13 PM EST
    HRC is down with that sentiment as well.

    [ Parent ]
    been there done that (none / 0) (#59)
    by diplomatic on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:34:49 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    knock yerself out (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:39:07 PM EST
    I have been stereotyped by professionals.
    lets see. poor stupid old white trailer trash low brow low information hicks.
    missing anything?

     

    [ Parent ]

    a fair number (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:45:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    beer drinker (none / 0) (#135)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:11:03 PM EST
    ......    :)

    [ Parent ]
    you forgot (none / 0) (#191)
    by wasabi on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:38:50 PM EST
    old bag or hag.  Take your pick.

    [ Parent ]
    You left out bitter old woman (none / 0) (#247)
    by echinopsia on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:16:39 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You'll have to just trust me (none / 0) (#74)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:42:37 PM EST
    When I say I waited until the 20th time I was called "low-info" before I started stereotyping Obama supporters.

    [ Parent ]
    So many "low-info" Ph.D's here who (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:53:37 PM EST
    support Hillary.
    Sad.

    [ Parent ]
    I have a masters (none / 0) (#287)
    by ricosuave on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:09:16 PM EST
    I must be "low info" compared to all you PhD's (though don't get me started on making fun of PhD folks!).

    If "low info" is what keeps me supporting Hillary, then I don't want to be "high info."  Is there a special chip they would install for us to make us high-info?  Is this like a Dr. Who episode?

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (none / 0) (#111)
    by Virginian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:59:33 PM EST
    Visceral = high info

    [ Parent ]
    That's a good (none / 0) (#78)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:43:38 PM EST
    One.  Can I use it?

    [ Parent ]
    Now that (none / 0) (#94)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:50:15 PM EST
    is the way to influence people... insult them.

    This is a HUGE problem within the Dem Party.

    Sen Obama and his supporters will HAVE TO reach out to unite the party. Comments like this are just not going to unite.

    The Uniters must be from the winning nmominee... since you are convinced Sen Obama will be that nominee... maybe you sould start practicing.

    I will vote for the Dem nominee... but not everyone will. Look for alot of HIllary write-ins or votes for McCain.


    [ Parent ]

    dont forget Nader (none / 0) (#96)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:51:08 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    This is a good point (none / 0) (#193)
    by Rigelian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:38:58 PM EST
    however, I haven't heard any words about united the party from Hilary Clinton supporters either.  Does this mean that they've already decided that she is not going to be the nominee or that they believe that insulting Barack Obama supporters doesn't matter.

    Frankly the sniping is counter productive and the exageration about the flaws of both of our candidates has reached the level of toxicity that it has lost all connection to reality.

    [ Parent ]

    Then you weren't listening in every debate (none / 0) (#202)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:42:19 PM EST
    and every post-primary speech, whether acceptance or concession speech, when Clinton consistently calls for party unity.  Even when she lost, she said it was a good day for Dems.  She has said this over and over. . . .

    So the question would be why you can't hear her.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry I've listened to the debates (none / 0) (#207)
    by Rigelian on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:45:42 PM EST
    and I've listened to what was said on the campaign trail.  Suggesting that Barack Obama is talk and nothing else, the suggestion that he is unqualified to be the CiC, comparing him unfavorably to John McCain speaks far louder than the throw away lines in a debate.  But the point of the matter I didn't say Clinton, I said this about "Clinton supporters", and the Clinton supporters I have seen here, and on other blogs have been no less insulting that Obama supporters.  Or haven't you been paying attention?

    [ Parent ]
    You must not (none / 0) (#238)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:08:44 PM EST
    of read some of the posts around here. This site supports UNITY of the Dems for the GE! This site encourages voting Dem!!!

    That said... we do not have the illusion that Sen Obama or Sen Clinton are the perfect pols.

    I'm not sure hwo "they" are? But I know that Hillary odds are not that good.

    I can assure you that I will challenge insults from Obama supporters.... for the good of the party.

    For myself, I watch how I frame my comments about Sen Obama. So please do not stereotype me.

    [ Parent ]

    Well That Is Great (none / 0) (#246)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:16:01 PM EST
    And a theme I have not seen here very much. Please trumpet it loudly, because your fellows here do not seem to be on board with you. At best I have heard some hrc commenters, under duress, admit that they will hold their nose and vote for BHO if he is the nominee. But mostly here it is slam and slime BHO at every possible opportunity.

    That you would not notice that fact is telling.

    [ Parent ]

    I will (none / 0) (#270)
    by PlayInPeoria on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:32:55 PM EST
    still hold my nose and vote for BHO.

    I do not want a repub in the WH. We will lose so much if the repubs win the GE.

    My concerns with BHO is his ability to get in WH. There are times when I hear him saysomething I just want to beat my head on my desk!

    Like BTD... I can see the flaws in both candidates. At this time I just believe HRC has a better chance to get in the WH... flaws and all.

    I'm VERY concerned that Sen Obama has painted himself into a corner on race. My concern is not "blaming" but for electiblity.

    [ Parent ]

    I have been saying the same thing (none / 0) (#274)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:38:48 PM EST
    but I am not sure now.
    the more I think about the "typical white person" thing the more it bugs and me

    [ Parent ]
    we are a varied group of people. (none / 0) (#155)
    by hellothere on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:19:57 PM EST
    instead of coming on here looking for a fight, i suggest you engage in conversation. but that might be asking too much. you seemed interested in insults and commercials for obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Wine drinking, sushi eating (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by otherlisa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:38:33 PM EST
    entertainment industry bureaucrat here!

    [ Parent ]
    Excuse me (none / 0) (#163)
    by standingup on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:24:35 PM EST
    There are plenty of blogs where your attitude is well received but this is not one of them.  Enough of the derogatory comments.    

    [ Parent ]
    That's nice. Lump everyone in together (none / 0) (#182)
    by shoephone on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:35:41 PM EST
    in your overly generalized view.

    As an Edwards supporter turned Hillary supporter, I will vote for whoever gets the nomination. Because I am a Democrat. If it's Obama in November, then he'll get my vote. Doesn't mean I have to shut my eyes and ears and mouth when I am confronted with his never-ending gaffes.

    I did hope we could have a new president who wouldn't have to rely on scripted speeches and teleprompters.

    [ Parent ]

    10-Year-Old dying of cancer; daughter's last wish (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by jerry on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 01:33:49 PM EST
    I wanted to ask people to read my diary, detailing a 10 year old girl dying of cancer whose father is in a Federal Prison on a non-violent drug charge....

    A funny per Marc Ambinder (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:08:11 PM EST
    Per Marc Ambinder.....

    The Obama campaign distributed Gov. Bill Richardson's endorsement speech...note the stage direction:

    I know Senator Obama well.
    I first got to know him when I chaired the last Democratic National Convention, where he gave that wonderful keynote address.

    And then, last year, as we campaigned against each other for the Presidency, I came to fully appreciate his steadfast patriotism and remarkable talents.

    I also felt a kinship with him because we both had one foreign-born parent and we both lived abroad as children.

    In part because of these experiences, Barack and I share a deep sense of our nation's special responsibilities in the world.

    [Turn toward Obama and smile]

    Barack Obama, you are an extraordinary leader who has shown courage, sound judgment and wisdom throughout your career.

    You understand the security challenges of the 21st century, and you will be an outstanding Commander in Chief.


    this is so good (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:14:41 PM EST
    that it might deserve to be used as a web address and new blog site: turntowardobamaandsmile.com. I'm not going to do it, but someone should. It's just too funny.

    [ Parent ]
    so (none / 0) (#157)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:20:31 PM EST
    if Hillary is Ralph and Obama is Jack and Richardson is Piggy who is Simon?  Ferrarro?

    [ Parent ]
    Wright of course (n/t) (none / 0) (#171)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:29:57 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Heck, the first version was really weird (none / 0) (#172)
    by Cream City on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:30:31 PM EST
    so be glad for the editing as above.  This was the first draft:

    In part because of these experiences, Barack and I share a deep sense of our nation's special responsibilities in the world.

    [Turn toward Obama and, as the heavens open above, and the all-encompassing epiphany hits, smile]

    [ Parent ]

    Aaah, thanks I needed that :) (none / 0) (#179)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:34:58 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    They published (none / 0) (#133)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:10:33 PM EST
    The script?

    Singer's right.

    It's amateur hour.

    Do you have a link?

    [ Parent ]

    Marc Ambinder (none / 0) (#190)
    by waldenpond on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:38:48 PM EST
    at the Atlantic or check out Politico.  I like Politico (and RCP.)  Note.. just don't read the comments at Ben Smith.  Interesting items on both sides but the posters are.. a little extreme.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL (n/t) (none / 0) (#134)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:11:01 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I'm sure (none / 0) (#140)
    by dissenter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:12:32 PM EST
    that will bring great relief to all Americans sharing in the "romantic" war experience.

    [ Parent ]
    Perfect Union (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:12:10 PM EST
    The speech has drawn out a lot of discussion about race here at work.  Some echo the O'Reily line about being scared to talk about race for fear of being called a racist.  My position is that anyone honestly expressing all their views and feelings on race is likely to offend at least someone.  But if you approaching it in a sincere and earnest effort it is likely to be forgiven.  You should also make the effort to forgive those who have offended you.

    Good, (none / 0) (#158)
    by abfabdem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:21:56 PM EST
    Geraldine Ferraro will be glad to hear this!

    [ Parent ]
    It tends to work better (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:36:26 PM EST
    if you say you're sorry for offending.

    To me her point would have been less offending if she had said a component of his popularity is his race rather than the only reason he is even here.  But even that would offended someone.

    She took the position of saying I don't care if anyone is offended by what I say.  That's where things break down.

    [ Parent ]

    I have a feeling there is a need (none / 0) (#192)
    by jes on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:38:54 PM EST
    for the call for forgiveness after Obama (typical white person), Kerry (he can heal Islam because he is black), and McCaskil (on non-victim black candidate).

    I'm pretty sure, however, the forgiveness will flow only in one direction.

    [ Parent ]

    You're really only responsible for yourself (none / 0) (#211)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:47:54 PM EST
    and it's about more than politics.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#197)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:40:49 PM EST
    Obama's invitation was to open up discussion about race, not close it down. I hope that the recent wave of new TL commenters (single issue HRC supporters) are not typical Americans, because if they are the topic of racism in America will turn ugly and become all about attacking the messenger.

    [ Parent ]
    It was a desperate attempt to help himself (none / 0) (#208)
    by Angel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:45:55 PM EST
    politically.  Nothing more than that.  And besides that, who gives him the right to be the moderator for racial relations?  

    [ Parent ]
    Well (none / 0) (#226)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:00:12 PM EST
    if that's all it was then it's having some unintended positive results.  At least where I am.

    [ Parent ]
    You Are The One (none / 0) (#229)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:02:27 PM EST
    Appearing desperate.  And as far as claiming the right to moderate discussions you are once again attacking the messenger. He never suggested that it would, could or should be his position to be any such thing. He in effect opened discussion and said 'the ball is in your court'.

    One of his main themes, whether you like him or not, is to invite others to become active and take the ball. This clearly reflects back to his Alinsky influence, an influence he shares with HRC.

    [ Parent ]

    I have one question? (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by ajain on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:16:59 PM EST
    Why is the Obama camp going crazy attacking Hillary's character so directly and pointedly. I mean, I get it, he wants to change the subject and point fingers at her, but if he is the nominee, which a lot of people believe he will be, why do that to her and her supporters? Does he think this will draw her supporters to him.

    Also if you want to her to get out of the race does anyone really think attacking her character and denigrating her character will be something that will motivate her to drop out? I mean I would want to gut him with a knife further if I were Hillary Clinton. I mean I'm sure she wants a Dem to win, but certainly this kind of blatant insult will not make her want to do anything to help him out, given that she really does like John McCain.

    Hum (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by dissenter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:20:06 PM EST
    Desperation and Delusional come to mind. This is not a long term thinking guy. He is short term cuz it has always worked for him.He is going to find out, it doesn't on the big stage.

    [ Parent ]
    he is doing it (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:23:57 PM EST
    because he sees the nomination slipping through his fingers.

    [ Parent ]
    Because (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:24:47 PM EST
    Because he's a different kind of candidate running a different kind of campaign?

    Seriously though, the annoying thing is that many members of the media will still say things like, "he doesn't attack, it's hard for him to respond to attacks because he's above that" even after recent actions.  Because he's "different" and "transcendent".  Despite evidence to the contrary.

    Just like McCain is still a "straight talker" after shifting his positions on a million issues and being caught in outright lies like the Iran/Al Qeada thing.  

    Once something is repeated by the media enough, it becomes gospel.  Even if it isn't true.

    [ Parent ]