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Final California Delegate Numbers Out

An astonishing 9 million people voted in California's Feb. 5 primary.

Late Saturday, the state Democratic Party announced the final votes had been tabulated. Results:

Hillary Rodham Clinton won 204 delegates and Barack Obama won 166 delegates.

In the popular vote, Clinton beat Obama by 8 points. She received 51.5 percent to his 43.2 percent.

9 million total voters, 4.7 or more million of them Dems , 8% more of whom voted for Hillary ...that's a lot of votes.

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    Cal went for Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:38:42 AM EST
    the same way a lot of places went for Clinton early on. She was the best-known candidate. Obama was relatively unknown. A lot of people voted early for Clinton. Some people who would have voted for Obama when Edwards dropped out had already voted.

    Nevertheless, Clinton won the state. I don't know what the vote would be today, I suspect that Obama would close the gap like he's done in every other state since Super Tuesday. No matter. Whoever is the Dem candidate will win Cali.

    And Ohio and Texas went for Clinton, the same way (none / 0) (#65)
    by ChrisO on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 12:51:42 PM EST
    a lot of places went for Clinton later on. The fact is, late deciders in California broke for Clinton. I really have trouble with this notion that Obama would win every election if he only had enough time. I really think this stems from the fact that a lot of Obama supporters consider Hillary to somehow be an illegitimate candidate, as evidenced by the many references to her "low information" supporters. Many Obama people just can't fathom how a voter who knew what he or she was doing would prefer Hillary over him.

    The notion that Hillary had some huge name recognition factor by Super Tuesday is unsupported by reality. How is it that he only had low name recognition in the states that he lost? There had been many debates, tons of news coverage and he had scored several impressive victories, not to mention the breathless media covergae of his rallies. There was speculation that Super Tuesday could be the end of Hillary, but now we're supposed to believe that Obama was some plucky underdog? I don't buy it.

    Hillary started the campaign with much higher name recognition, and a big lead in the polls. But polls that far out are extremely unreliable, and Obama proved to be an attractive candidate and good campaigner. All credit to him for tightening up the polls, but many Obama supporters seem to think the polls are on some infinite trend line that would eventually lead to him getting 100 percent of the vote, if we only wait long enough.

    [ Parent ]

    Not exactly 8% of 9 million (none / 0) (#1)
    by Prabhata on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:15:41 AM EST
    One has to remember that there were other candidates in the ballot that received significant percentages because many people in CA vote by mail.  Some of them may have voted before the candidates dropped out, or some may have voted on February 5 for other than HRC or Obama to make a statement.

    Any way I just visited the Secretary of State website and calculated the difference between HRC and Obama to be 431500 votes, or about 5% of 9 million.

    http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/pres/dem/59.htm

    For one thing, you're linking (none / 0) (#6)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:45:03 AM EST
    to the stats on election night.  Many votes had to be counted since, as you say -- so they would not be in the election-night number, right?  Can you link to/do the math for the updated numbers reported now?

    [ Parent ]
    Results as of 3/4 (none / 0) (#57)
    by MKS on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:21:02 AM EST
    The site says results as of 3/4, not the night of the election....

    [ Parent ]
    It is 8% (none / 0) (#8)
    by Manuel on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:50:19 AM EST
    of a smaller number.  The total in the CA Web site for the dem primary is 4,882,620 votes.  Is the 9 million total for both democrat and republican primaries?

    [ Parent ]
    The total for both parties is 7720221 (none / 0) (#10)
    by Manuel on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:04:24 AM EST
    Not sure where the 9 million is coming from.  The results for other contests don't make up for the difference.  The original 9m reference web site isn't working for me.

    [ Parent ]
    Numerous articles cite 9 million (none / 0) (#12)
    by DudeE on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:07:43 AM EST
    Including the one linked in the post:

    "Secretary of State Debra Bowen says just over 9 million voters cast ballots, the most ever in a California primary."

    [ Parent ]

    It looks like 9m is a total for all parties (none / 0) (#14)
    by Manuel on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:17:49 AM EST
    And even after adding all third parties there are quite a few missing to get to 9m.  Perhaps the state web site has not been updated yet or perhaps there were a significant numebr of people that didn't vote on any presidential primary.

    [ Parent ]
    I imagine Jeralyn... (none / 0) (#27)
    by sar75 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:25:58 AM EST
    ...will be taking down this clearly false number.

    And still, no matter how many popular votes Clinton got in California, she's still down overall.

    And Obama increased his overall delegate count this week with the addition of 7 Edwards' delegates from Ohio.

    Does anyone here really think that she is going to overtake Obama in pledged delegates AND popular vote?  If she can't do one or the other, she has no chance of becoming the nominee.

    [ Parent ]

    And he has NO CHANCE NOW (none / 0) (#33)
    by kenosharick on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:54:57 AM EST
    to win the general. If anyone thinks middle America independents will vote for him they are deluding themselves. (the 527's will destroy him)

    [ Parent ]
    Uhm Yes, in fact I do (none / 0) (#47)
    by Dancing Bear on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:44:52 AM EST
    Florida and Michigan will count and she will be ahead. You can pretend they don't exist but Iowa will not win the White House. Watch how the Super Delegates run from him now that we know a little more about some of his supporters. They don't want to be associated with corruption or racism .

    [ Parent ]
    yes I will (none / 0) (#63)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:50:47 AM EST
    make that clear, thanks.

    [ Parent ]
    There were many ballot initiatives (none / 0) (#30)
    by Blue Neponset on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:29:25 AM EST
    Some people must have decided to vote on the ballot initiatives without voting in any of the primaries.  

    [ Parent ]
    Sadly, Edwards had already dropped out... (none / 0) (#2)
    by ACitizen on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:19:01 AM EST
    ............a move hard to understand. Perhaps it was getting to be too much for Elizabeth's health. I give him a pass but gosh....

    Look where we are now.

    The Rethugs are licking their chops at the chance to get to the very compromised Obama. Who it turns out...

    ...is not only lacking in experience but has some vulnerabilities due to associations he's had with people and activities that most likely won't play well with many of the voters.

    I've got my popcorn. Let the festivities continue.

    And....

    Don't blame me if the Dead Loser Caucus snatches defeat from victory yet again.

    I wanted Edwards. The guy who could beat McSame like a drum...

    Remember him.

    Elizabeth's health was NOT a factor (none / 0) (#56)
    by Josey on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:21:01 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Oh wait, I thought Obama was going (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:37:45 AM EST
    to close it up in CA.  Wha happened?  

    Yes, Edwards was on the CA Dem. primary ballot, even though he dropped out a short time before.

    The bizarre part of this... (none / 0) (#13)
    by DudeE on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:09:48 AM EST
    ...is that Obama actually increased his delegate count from CA from 161 to 166...

    [ Parent ]
    Of course. Both increased. Uncounted ballots (none / 0) (#23)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:43:27 AM EST
    went to more than one candidate.

    [ Parent ]
    Double bubble issue? (none / 0) (#35)
    by ineedalife on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:04:01 AM EST
    Didn't the Obama camp convince the SoS to count hundreds of thousands of independent ballots that were initially ruled defective because both bubbles weren't filled out?

    [ Parent ]
    Congrats (none / 0) (#4)
    by chemoelectric on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:39:03 AM EST
    Congratulations to Hillary Clinton for her considerable net delegate gain and her share of the big turnout.

    (Although frankly the big turnout in the Dem primaries has had little to do with any Democrats, except maybe in their role as enablers of the Bushists, which both Clinton and Obama have been active in.)

    You don't think the high turn out (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:45:00 AM EST
    nos. this primary season signify an anybody but the Republican for Pres. movement?  I do note an extensive anti-Iraq war protest today--outside the U.S.

    [ Parent ]
    More confused... (none / 0) (#7)
    by Andy08 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:45:40 AM EST
    I look at the RCP numbers I don't understand them:
    they have Obama with about 2.1M votes and Clinton with about 2.5M (that's like 4.6 M only...)
    Then they have Clinton with 203 delegates and Obama with 167.

    9 million votes in total... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Blue Neponset on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:26:34 AM EST
    ...4.8 million of those people voted in the Democratic primary.  The rest of the votes were from Republicans voting in the Repub primary and people who didn't in the primary but did vote on ballot initiatives.  

    [ Parent ]
    thanks, I've made the correction (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:49:18 AM EST
    it was 9 million total, 4.8 million Dems in primary.

    [ Parent ]
    Nine million votes (none / 0) (#9)
    by rolfyboy6 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:53:15 AM EST
    It's not that astonishing. One eighth+ of all Americans live in California, more than 33 million (and the Census always undercounts us).  Twenty percent of all American business is done in California and we produce about 25% of all tax revenue (and the Feds spend it and give us 15% back).    If California was an independent country we'd be the sixth largest economy in the world--like France.

    The Obama campaign was simply overwhelmed by the size of California both in population and geographically.  They really didn't understand until about ten days before the election that there was more to the state than L.A. and S.F.

    Yeah (none / 0) (#11)
    by clapclappointpoint on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:07:11 AM EST
    I'm pretty sure they just hung out by the Hollywood sign and then zipped up to SF for a chowder bread bowl.

    Do you seriously think that any national campaign would be that dense?

    [ Parent ]

    They may not be dense (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:39:27 AM EST
    But they did get smoked.


    [ Parent ]
    Clearly Cali doesn't have enough hip, young people (none / 0) (#22)
    by Ellie on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:31:38 AM EST
    You know, typical BO supporters.

    [ Parent ]
    We gotta ship some of the creative class (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 06:46:19 AM EST
    to California from Iowa, Mississippi, and other states just hoggin' more than their fair share, clearly.

    [ Parent ]
    ROTFLMAO (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by MO Blue on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:27:41 AM EST
    She shots - She scores a ten pointer (I allocate points by MO Blue rules not by any known game)

    [ Parent ]
    MO Blue gives me some (none / 0) (#71)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:41:30 AM EST
    March Madness points.  Excellent.  (I hang with a Hoosier, plus we just got home from a weekend in NY near Madison Square Garden, so I'm ready for some serious hoops talk for weeks now.  Go Wisconsin!)

    [ Parent ]
    Heh, Creative Class (none / 0) (#50)
    by rolfyboy6 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:50:54 AM EST
    Lemme know when those places do any software.

    [ Parent ]
    Evidently they were (none / 0) (#48)
    by rolfyboy6 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:46:11 AM EST
    The Obama campaign only opened field offices in Sacramento and Fresno 10 days before the election.  They didn't carry the Central Valley at all as they seemed to just find out about it right before the election.  There's 1.3 million people in Sacramento County alone.  There's one million people in Fresno County.  The Obama folks seemed to be flabbergasted at the size of the job.  They were fortunate that Edwards folded when he did or they wouldn't have won the North Coastal Counties by one and two percent.

    In my city the Obama campaign opened an office behind a nail salon at a strip mall 12 miles from downtown 10 days before the election.

    [ Parent ]

    The thing is, Obama didn't (none / 0) (#34)
    by tree on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:00:33 AM EST
    do that well in Los Angeles County. In fact Clinton won by a larger margin there than she won statewide. Los Angeles County made up over one quarter(29% to be more exact) of the Democratic voters in California, and they gave Clinton the county by approximately 178,000 votes(a 55-42 county margin, better than the 52-43 state margin). That's 40% of her statewide margin total.

    Obama won handily in San Francisco, but its much smaller.

    [ Parent ]

    In fact (none / 0) (#36)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:22:04 AM EST
    Obama did very well in a lot of the northern rural counties (some of which have relatively few people).  His campaign made a strong effort to get endorsements from all of the small-town papers.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, he won Alpine County (none / 0) (#49)
    by rolfyboy6 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:49:27 AM EST
    with it's 500 registered voters.  If Edwards had stayed in he wouldn't have won most of the North Coastal Counties.  In Sonoma and Mendocino Counties the backwoods vote that had been Edwards' went for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    That 11 in a row (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:38:17 AM EST
    What was the vote totals in those states?

    Anyone out there know?

    Doesn't matter anyways (none / 0) (#17)
    by clapclappointpoint on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:05:23 AM EST
    VA, WI and WA would never go blue in the GE.  And even if they did, they're all full of the latte-sipping, imported car-driving liberals we don't want in the Democratic party.

    [ Parent ]
    Now, now, now... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Fredster on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:21:05 AM EST
    VA, WI and WA would never go blue in the GE.  And even if they did, they're all full of the latte-sipping, imported car-driving liberals we don't want in the Democratic party.

    Now don't go getting all snarky and such.  Everybody is pretty civil here although I bet there's a lot of teeth-grinding at the keyboards.  Don't let this place become like Daily K  (don't even want to "say" it).  ;-)


    [ Parent ]

    My question (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:31:17 AM EST
    Was pretty specific.


    [ Parent ]
    Numbers (none / 0) (#64)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:58:43 AM EST
    I have numbers... some aren't current.  I need to go back to greenpapers and RCP.  I don't have WA

    State         Clinton      Obama          
    Washington  
    Louisiana  136925.00    220632.00   
    nebraska     12445.00    26126.00   
    Maine           0.00         0.00   
    virgin il       0.00         0.00
    virginia    349766.00    627820.00   
    MARYLAND     314211.00    532665.00
    DC           29470.00    93386.00
    DEMS ABROAD  7501.00    15214.00
    WISCONSIN    452795.00    646007.00
    hawaii       8835.00    28347.00

    Difference if these are correct....878,249

    [ Parent ]

    WI & WA might go blue, depending. (none / 0) (#20)
    by cpinva on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:11:05 AM EST
    the only way VA is going blue is if NVA is severed from the rest of it. SC isn't going blue in your lifetime either.

    edgar, i haven't a clue. i suspect the total of those 11 states doesn't equal CA though. strictly speculation mind you.

    Well (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:21:18 AM EST
    That was the point.

    Clinton wins CA by 800,000 votes

    But Obama wins 11 states in a row by, let's say, on average, 70,000 votes each.  800,000 > 770,000.

    You know.

    If someone can give me a list of those 11 states, I think I can take it from there.


    [ Parent ]

    mmmm (none / 0) (#26)
    by Rainsong on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:25:20 AM EST
    If someone can give me a list of those 11 states, I think I can take it from there.

    Feb 9 Louisiana, Washington, Nebraska
    Feb 10 Maine
    Feb 12 Virginia, MD and DC
    Feb 19 Hawaii, Wisconsin
    (Think I missed a couple)

    But a re-do on the math doesn't help,
    Obama always wins, that's the rules :(

    [ Parent ]

    The Numbers (none / 0) (#32)
    by ROK on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:51:49 AM EST
    Every possible pro-Clinton number scenario still gives Obama a lead (pop. vote, del count, state etc...). I'm not thrilled how this whole thing has turned out, but I'm not intentionally looking the other way.
     

    [ Parent ]
    And look at those margins. (none / 0) (#38)
    by zzyzx on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:56:53 AM EST
    We don't have ME or WA but look at the non-caucus states listed

    LA + 83,707
    VA +278,054
    MD +218,454
    WI +192,897

    All of those gains in the hugely populated state of California were more than wiped out in just VA and MD.  

    [ Parent ]

    Numbers are lower (none / 0) (#31)
    by tree on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:38:39 AM EST
    Clinton beat Obama by approximately 430,000 votes, with slightly under 4,900,000 votes in the Democratic primary. The rest of the 9 million voters voted in the Republican primary, and the lesser party primaries.

    [ Parent ]
    The problem with this sort of argument is... (none / 0) (#37)
    by zzyzx on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:52:50 AM EST
    Illinois.

    Clinton picked up a net 427,184 votes in CA and 317,477 in New York.   That's 744,661 votes.  Pretty impressive for just two states.

    There's just one thing.  Obama netted 650,304 votes in Illinois.  That almost singlehandedly wiped out Clinton's two biggest wins.  The thing about Obama is that when he wins, he tends to win by wide margins.  

    Obama managed to net more votes in Georgia than Clinton did in New York.  That's how she ended up here; when the contest isn't winner take all, you can't write off states or you'll lose delegates that can't be picked up later.  Big margins are a killer.

    [ Parent ]

    I think this story needs an update (none / 0) (#25)
    by Blue Neponset on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:23:55 AM EST
    9 million people didn't vote in the Democratic primary, 4,882,620 people did.  link  As a result, Senator Clinton won the race by 431,481
    votes.

    Jeralyn didn't say Dem primary (none / 0) (#40)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:14:09 AM EST
    -- she said primary.  Btw, this is how it's always stated; does everyone here who just discovered that demand retractions from their newspapers, too?

    [ Parent ]
    Good point, but (none / 0) (#41)
    by tree on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:20:14 AM EST
    Jeralyn also wrote about "8% of 9 million", as if that was the total net advantage for Clinton. That's what's wrong with the post.

    [ Parent ]
    No, but (none / 0) (#42)
    by Warren Terrer on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:23:12 AM EST
    by writing '8% of 9 million' in the last sentence Jeralyn clearly believes that 9 million voted in the Dem primary alone.

    [ Parent ]
    Jeralyn certianly deserves the benefit... (none / 0) (#59)
    by Blue Neponset on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:31:04 AM EST
    ..of the doubt.  But I would hope she makes her opinion a bit clearer because right now the post is confusing.  

    [ Parent ]
    Just google the stats (none / 0) (#70)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:38:17 AM EST
    for ourselves, and it's not confusing at all.

    [ Parent ]
    Jeralyn, is the link OK? (none / 0) (#39)
    by ghost2 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:03:11 AM EST
    The link doesn't work for me.  

    SUSA and poll question (none / 0) (#43)
    by smott on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:23:47 AM EST
    ....gang I have a question about the nat'l polls, and SUSA in particular since they've been so accurate up 'til now...

    Do these polls take turnout into account?

    Ex) Let's an OH GE election poll shows McCain narrowly beating either BO or HRC say 51-49...

    Are they just polling equal nbrs of reg'd Dems and Repubs?
    BEcause if so, and the Dem turnout in Nov buries the Repub by a factor of 2 or something, then that small margin for McCain gets completely blown away.

    Does anyone have more info on this?  I keep hoping that a lot of "close" polls are kind of moot because the Dem turnout is going to be historically huge...

    I don't think Dem (none / 0) (#66)
    by sas on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:52:21 PM EST
    turnout will be huge.

    There will be alot of Dems who stay home because their candidate is not on the ballot.

    [ Parent ]

    come on (none / 0) (#69)
    by diogenes on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:51:31 PM EST
    How many Hillary supporters (except for bigots who would never vote for a black) in Ohio really would support John McCain or stay home because they will think that she was "cheated" of the nomination that was rightfully hers because the superdelegates didn't roll her way?

    [ Parent ]
    Jon Swift has a post up this mornin about Hillary (none / 0) (#44)
    by Angel on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:30:10 AM EST
    supporters deserting DKos.
    A great take on the attitudes of BO supporters.  Worth the time to read, IMO.


    Very funny (none / 0) (#46)
    by tree on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:43:15 AM EST
    Thanks. The man writes great satire.

    [ Parent ]
    Lets see (none / 0) (#51)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:25:42 AM EST
    After Wisconsin etc, the alleged momentum should have resulted in a wipe out of Hillary.  20 to 30% losses.  Obviously, the Democratic voters are not convinced.  So, you can argue about delegates, a few votes here or there, recounts, but it's clear:  There is no mandate for Obama.  He cannot close the deal.  I

    f he is such a winner, why is he struggling to get Republicans to register as Democrats.  You can call it whatever you want but now the party and the candidates have to do something to keep the Democratic momentum and they are not.  

    Obama's tactical mistake was taking the democratic base for granted and pandering to his "manufactured coalition".  

    Exactly (none / 0) (#52)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:29:06 AM EST
    Obama's tactical mistake was taking the democratic base for granted and pandering to his "manufactured coalition".  

    I think he firmly believes that he can go back and rebuild that burned bridge.  It is laughable to think that he is doing all the stupid things Kerry did (and his supporters are helping the narrative by calling Clinton supporters "elderly women, low-information voters and the working poor" as if that's three strikes) and will still have a chance in the ge.

    The biggest problem O will have if he gets the nom is that he will not have an energetic ex-president cheering him along.  Clinton will probably find that he has pressing foundation matters in Africa when O wants him to stump for him.  And I would not blame him a bit.

    [ Parent ]

    Contrary to popular belief (none / 0) (#53)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:35:38 AM EST
    Obama had to destroy the Clinton's to create the "coalition" since it is based on Hillary hate and Clinton alleged racism.   Along with destroying the Clinton's he and his supporters destroyed the Clinton voter.  

     Now, how will he and his coalition ask for support from the "racist" Hillary voters?  How will he tell the "lizard brained" (Arianna's descriptor of Ohio and Texas voters) voters, the low information voters that he values them?  How now will the Clinton supporter not be the okie doked bamboozler?  Words...words.  

     

    [ Parent ]

    Probably the same way... (none / 0) (#54)
    by zzyzx on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:01:23 AM EST
    ...Clinton will ask for supporters from the "unimportant" states if she gets the nomination.  Her camp has dismissed me in three different ways - I'm from Washington State, I drive a Prius, and I've been known to wear Birkenstocks - but come November, if she's the nominee I'd vote for her.

    [ Parent ]
    equivalency? (none / 0) (#68)
    by tree on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 05:27:01 PM EST
    Some of the equivalencies that get thrown around don't make sense. "Wearing Birkenstocks", "driving a Prius" is as much a put-down as being called "lizard-brained"? I don't see it.  

    [ Parent ]
    Hear, hear (none / 0) (#61)
    by sas on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:47:38 AM EST
    After all the vitriol against Hillary, how can they honestly expect her voters to support him?

    [ Parent ]
    I really (none / 0) (#67)
    by sas on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:56:40 PM EST
    resent the fact that the Obama supporters say awful things about Clinton and her supporters, and then expect them to come back in the fall and support him?

    Also he says her supporters will support him, but he's not sure if his supporters will support her?

    Stupid, amatuerish comments by Obama...the voters do not like to be taken for granted.

    [ Parent ]

    Pot meet kettle (none / 0) (#72)
    by Skex on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:58:16 PM EST
    There has been plenty of venom flying in both directions so stop playing victim. I thought Clinton's supporters liked hard ball no holds barred fights?

    As a current Obama supporter I think I can say quite honestly that if the shoe were on the other foot and and Obama was looking at the same math Clinton is now that I'd be supporting Hillary in the interest of putting a democrat in the white house because as much as I dislike the DLC people supporting her they are still better than any republican by a large measure.

    However she isn't it's that simple. At this point Obama is going to be the nominee unless the Super Delegates decide anoint her in defiance of the will of the electorate. In which case the party will split.

    That isn't a threat it's a prediction. Because there is no way in which Clinton can win the nomination at this point that will look legitimate. I think the math I've seen says she'd have to blow Obama out at like 70 to 30% that just isn't going to happen.

    For all the fanning of the flames that the MSM is engaging in this issue really isn't going to amount to much by November. With the direction the economy is going coupled with the billion dollars or so a day going into the black hole we call Iraq people will be going Reverend what?

    Lets get real here. Issue wise you could split hairs with the difference between these two candidates.

    But I'm a believer in the 50 state strategy and that means I'm on Obama's side. The Big state strategy just means we loose out in the house and senate. Because there are very few red states hell  there ain't that many blue ones. They tend to be purple and as 2006 showed quite conclusively democrats can win those Red states.

    The 50 state strategy means that we pick up more house and senate seats simple as that even if we don't get the presidential electors more seats means more can be accomplished. As more is accomplished more support is gained and that's how you change a red state into a blue one.

    Remember it wasn't all that long ago that Texas elected a Woman Democrat as governor.

    I do reiterate my prediction, If Clinton gains the nomination in a way that does not appear legitimate (I don't care if the rules say the supers aren't bound by the pledged count it still won't appear legitimate) then all hell is going to break loose, As all the people supporting him all those millions of people who made their small donations all those people who worked on his campaign and especially the African Americans who will see the first black presidential contender robbed.

    You can rationalize until the cows come home you can equivocate and bellyache but that's the way it's going to look to millions of Americans if Hillary is given the nomination by the party insiders.  

    That's the reality check people over here need. That's the reality check Hillary and McAuliff and that whole DLC gang needs to get through their heads. That's why many of us on the 50 state side of the debate are getting so angry.

    I understand that it's hard to watch your candidate loose hell I think I've mentioned I'm a Texas Liberal it's like a way of life for us down here in the Lone Star State.

    But there comes a time when you gotta open your eyes and face reality. This match is over it's time to move on to the next fight.

    Clinton lost this round simple as that. She was out campaigned plain and simple. She made a solid showing no one can reasonably say she got clock cleaned.

    But at least on my side of the fight it's less about the candidates and more about the direction of the party.

    You see the McAuliff/Clinton/DLC thing isn't working for us. That way of doing things gave 8 years of George Bush. It gave us 8 years of Republican control of the house and senate.

    But most of all it's undermined the Progressive message of the Democratic party. It has taken us away from our populist roots it's changed us from being the party of the little guy into a slightly gentler version of the GOP.

    I often joke that the difference between a Democrat and a Republican is that the Democrat will give you lube and a reach around.

    Well I for one am tired of that. I want a democratic party that works for the people not the corporations. I want a democratic party that is beholden to us not Haliburton. I want a Democratic party that doesn't take campaign advise from the opposition.

    Yes I'm passionate about this and so are many others on my side of the divide. I don't doubt your commitment I don't doubt your sincerity but I do doubt your judgment and there is a tendency when dealing with people who appear to be immune to facts to get frustrated and lash out with some less than gentle language.

    Also people get caught up in the moment and we all can say things that are less than polite when angered.

    Well that's where the Obama people are coming from. The vitriol comes from there. It's isn't that we think Obama is the second coming. He's just a man he's not a saint, hell he's a politician we know he ain't perfect. For many of us he wasn't ever our first choice.

    But for good or ill he's going to be the nominee yet here we have the people who should be the ones getting behind him doing the republican's jobs for him.

    We as progressives should not be out condemning Wrights words and feigning shock and ignorance. We should be out providing that context to the story. Explaining what he meant, explaining why what he said is actually pretty damned accurate.

    Empathy is something I consider to be the core of liberal philosophy. the ability to put oneself in the shoes of another to be able to understand why someone else feels pain to be able to grasp how ones actions affect others.

    In the case of Reverend Wright I can understand the knee jerk reaction attack since he attacked your candidate.

    But put yourself in his shoes for a moment. Here he is a black man in America who put up with all the racism who lived through the days when calling someone a nigger was socially acceptable.

    Then he's got a member of his congregation a man who he's know for years a man who he officiated over his wedding who's children he baptized, A man who is first serious black candidate for the highest office in this land.

    Then here come Ferraro who he probably supported in her vice presidential bid who he probably had some level respect for up until that moment. He watched her come out and spew one of the most vile attacks possible.

    In one sentence she evoked all that anger all that oppression all that gentile polite racism that seethes under the civilized veneer of our society.

    This idea that a black man could not measure up to societies standards save as a token, the implication being that Obama's success is do to some sort of Affirmative action.

    This attack not from some righting bigot blow hard but from a fellow democrat another supposed liberal another minority with whom one should have common cause.

    So yeah he lashed out and used some language that was was rough and made some points in a less than gentle way. But you know in your hearts if you actually take a moment to really think to really consider the lot of Black men in America that every word he said is true and that's why your so mad about it.

    He holds the mirror up and you can't admit to what you see.

    [ Parent ]

    misleading spin (none / 0) (#55)
    by Skex on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:17:33 AM EST
    Clinton looses delegates and you're trying to spin this into a win for her?

    WOW

    My goodness (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:22:51 AM EST
    A strange world indeed where getting 400,000 more votes than the other candidate counts as a win.

    [ Parent ]
    Loosing ground (none / 0) (#60)
    by Skex on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:34:07 AM EST
    isn't something I'd be bragging about.

    Since the California Primary isn't the only one in this fight and since it is not a winner take all primary this news is not good news for Clinton. The significance of the event at this point is that Clinton's margin was more narrow than was previously thought.

    Further the implication that 8% of the 9 million voters in the Primary is misleading as well since it would be more like 4% since half that 9 million voted in the republican primary.

    What we have here is someone trying to put a positive spin on what is really bad news for Clinton.

    [ Parent ]