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    We have gotten so involved in our petty (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:32:32 PM EST
    fights that we forgotten our children are dying overseas for a lie.

    I haven't (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:36:52 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The media seems to have. (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:37:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    i like the spitzer story on yahoo frontpage (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by TheRefugee on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:37:40 PM EST
    promiscuity linked to prehistoric....

    I wasn't aware that a hidden caveman gene caused adultery.  Why is that even a part of a discussion.

    A better headline would be...Adultery tied to stupid decision making.

    even better headline (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:47:16 PM EST
    "Man to blame for his own actions."

    It's called personal responsibility.  I know we haven't heard much about it, but it starts with admitting you are not controlled by some evil, secret gene.

    I mean, really, cavemen used to rape and pillage and live in caves and poo in the woods.  Are we going to excuse that behavior next?  How far back into the primordial ooze must we go before someone admits the guy is a self-righteous a-hole who paid a woman in her twenties to submit to whatever craven sexual fantasy he had?  When do we admit that he devastated his wife and children, that he dishonored their marriage and his family in an inexcusable and disgusting way?  And when, finally, are we going to admit that he gave money-quite a bit, actually-to fund the exploitation of women?  Do you really think those girls were getting even half of that money?  How would you feel if he was paying your sister to submit to him?

    I mean, come on.  He is not a victim.

    [ Parent ]

    Speaking of early man ... (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:55:54 PM EST
    having you ever heard of the "aquatic ape hypothesis?"

    It used to be a fringe theory, but it's gaining greater credence.

    It argues that early in our evolution our proto-human ancestors spent inordinate amounts of time in water, and survived primarily on fish and seafood.

    This explains the rapid growth of the size of our brains, since Omega-3s are one of the few agents which can increase brain size.  And Omega-3s are primarily found in fish and seafood.

    But it also explains why we lost most of the hair on our bodies, but not our heads, how we gained erect carriage, why our backs don't properly support us, why certain aspects of human births are only found in sea mammals, and a number of other mysteries of evolution.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm more of a Pinker gal myself (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:01:11 PM EST
    on the nature/nurture thing.  And you don't want to get me started on the God Gene.

    Robot, did you see that dolphin they found that had the remnants of feet?  Or the one whose front flippers made it possible to "walk" out of the ocean?  How about those chimps who are hunting with spears and taking shelter in caves?

    Fascinating stuff.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah, I love stuff like that ... (none / 0) (#37)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:02:27 PM EST
    all very cool.

    [ Parent ]
    Now that you mention remnant of feet (none / 0) (#39)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:04:00 PM EST
    and in a tie in with what Robot said did they go into the water or did some related species come out of the water. Dolphins and whales I mean.

    [ Parent ]
    IMO, there wasn't much land (none / 0) (#50)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:10:33 PM EST
    so there was no need for them to get out of the water.  When there was more land, and food grew on the land, then they got out and said, "hey, you gonna eat that?"  And then something else got out and ate them.

    My favorite animal behavioral sciences story is about a dolphin at Sea World in San Diego.  They put him in a tank with a mirror, and every day, he would stare at the mirror for hours, and they thought, "does he know he is staring at himself or does he think he is looking at another dolphin?"  So, to see what was happening, they sent him to a holding tank and put a plastic ring around his tail, then sent him back into the tank with the mirror.  He swam right up to the mirror, turned sideways and shook his tail so he could see the ring.

    Which is to say, when the dolphins learn to walk on land, we're gonna need some big mirrors to hold up to stop them.

    [ Parent ]

    Supposedly ... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:11:58 PM EST
    dolphins evolved from a species that moved from water to land, then it moved back to water and became dolphins, whales, etc..

    [ Parent ]
    Why they returned to the water ... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:16:08 PM EST
    is anyone's guess.

    Maybe they got a taste of early mammal politics and decided it wasn't for them.

    ;)

    [ Parent ]

    That's plausible (none / 0) (#65)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:17:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yeah but you know a lot of those supposedly (none / 0) (#58)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:15:21 PM EST
    are sometimes misreading of our very limited fossil data.  I guess it would be hard to figure out the exact process but no arguing it did occur and maybe more than once.

    [ Parent ]
    I said "supposedly" ... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:18:14 PM EST
    but they have similarities to land mammals up to a certain level, then they diverge ... that's one of the things supporting the theory, in addition to fossils.

    [ Parent ]
    That is true one of my pet theory (none / 0) (#73)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:20:17 PM EST
    is that as you said on that other comment they didn't like what they found.

    [ Parent ]
    Ah, somebody has been reading Heller (none / 0) (#64)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:17:23 PM EST
    I dunno, I've always thought of the dolphins as smart enough to know better.  They do have those pesky patches of hair, though...

    Did you see the sea lions in SF who are attacking people on the docks?  I think they are getting tired of all those sewage "accidents" that keep dumping poo into their ocean.

    [ Parent ]

    Something like Hitchcock's the Birds (none / 0) (#67)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:18:17 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Even sea lions ... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:20:10 PM EST
    will only put up with so much sh*t.  

    Democrats on the other hand, we seem to have an endless ...

    I can't even finish that sentence.

    [ Parent ]

    Being an emigre from HuffPo... (none / 0) (#93)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:38:49 PM EST
    ...I'm not used to this caliber of intellect ;)

    [ Parent ]
    I emigrated from huffpo (none / 0) (#95)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:40:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I hear there are ... (none / 0) (#100)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:45:18 PM EST
    some nice duty free shops on the way out.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah I got me some nice Rum (none / 0) (#102)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:47:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    ethnic cleansing... (none / 0) (#108)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:50:25 PM EST
    ...even the last little ghetto of Hillary supporters has been largely run out of town...

    [ Parent ]
    Talk about intellect -- (none / 0) (#204)
    by mg7505 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:54:43 PM EST
    I emigrated from Kos!

    [ Parent ]
    Actually if you look hard enough (none / 0) (#23)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:52:54 PM EST
    you could probably find a gene for every behavior we have.  After all who's to argue.

    [ Parent ]
    You're exactly right (none / 0) (#28)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:55:14 PM EST
    Every action has roots in nature and nurture.  That explains it; it doesn't excuse it.

    [ Parent ]
    I am more of a Nurture type (none / 0) (#31)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:57:48 PM EST
    meaning that I am not a great believer on hard wired behavior.

    [ Parent ]
    What makes humans human... (none / 0) (#91)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:36:57 PM EST
    ...is the ability to override instinct

    [ Parent ]
    Read Matt Ridley's (none / 0) (#197)
    by mg7505 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:51:19 PM EST
    Nature Via Nurture for a good analysis of this subject. The two forces play off each other and are intertwined to an extent that we can't really quantify the role each plays -- this argument rests on a lot of research in evolutionary biology and related fields.

    Apropos to Spitzer, why does The Media feel compelled to publish bogus pseudo-science and armchair psychoanalysis since this happened? Leave the guy, his family, and his escort alone! Lord knows they're all suffering enough without every mediocre MSM journalist and talking head chiming in. How does all the "reporting" help anyone?

    [ Parent ]

    Only in America would people pretend to wonder (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:11:17 PM EST
    ... why anyone would want gratuitous hot (YMMV) sex and then move on.

    A costly date for Spitzer, but not so surprising, scientists say By Faye Flam, Inquirer Staff Writer

    Why would someone as rich and powerful as Eliot Spitzer put his family, his job, and his promising future on the line for an alleged $4,000 date with a prostitute?

    Is this pathological or inherent in human nature?

    Scientists says it's more likely to be the latter. They attribute this kind of behavior to natural promiscuity combined with opportunity - along with a risk-taking personality common to men such as Bill Clinton and John F. Kennedy.

    Run for the hills gals, it's them sexed-up Democrats spillin out of their genes again!!!

    It's what makes them seek office and what makes us vote for them. [...]

    "Men such as those in Spitzer's position do not so much pay for women to have sex with them; they pay for women to go away after having sex with them," said evolutionary psychologist David Buss of the University of Texas. "It's one strategy some men use for minimizing the costs, although obviously it did not work for Spitzer." (A costly date for Spitzer, but not so surprising, scientists say By Faye Flam, Philadelphia Inquirer, March 12, 2008)

    ahhhh HAHAHAHAHHA

    Yes, indeed, let's pretend no one could ever imagine why anyone else would just want an evening of companionship and sex and move on.

    Noooo, people only want sex with someone they love very very much. Sexuality outside that is so rare and so undesirable, it's a pathology ... that most of the population indulges in overtly or in transferred activities.


    [ Parent ]

    LOL! (none / 0) (#57)
    by tek on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:13:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hahahaha. (none / 0) (#78)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:24:51 PM EST
    That article is amazing.

    I can't wait until science is so good that we're able to prove how idiotically simplistic all these articles are.

    Come on brave new world!

    [ Parent ]

    The stupidity (none / 0) (#55)
    by tek on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:12:08 PM EST
    of Spitzer's actions actually cause one to wonder if he's mentally ill.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe he wanted to avoid (none / 0) (#112)
    by ding7777 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:53:34 PM EST
    a Monica-type problem

    [ Parent ]
    This is the Hillary I know and love (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:46:15 PM EST
    Her biggest apology came in response to a question about comments by her husband, Bill Clinton, after the South Carolina primary, which Obama won handily. Bill Clinton said Jesse Jackson also won South Carolina when he ran for president in 1984 and 1988, a comment many viewed as belittling Obama's success.
    "I want to put that in context. You know I am sorry if anyone was offended. It was certainly not meant in any way to be offensive," Hillary Clinton said. "We can be proud of both Jesse Jackson and Senator Obama."

    "Anyone who has followed my husband's public life or my public life know very well where we have stood and what we have stood for and who we have stood with," she said, acknowledging that whoever wins the nomination will have to heal the wounds of a bruising, historic contest.
    "Once one of us has the nomination there will be a great effort to unify the Democratic party and we will do so, because, remember I have a lot of supporters who have voted for me in very large numbers and I would expect them to support Senator Obama if he were the nominee," she said.

    Pitch perfect.


    Yep n/t (none / 0) (#18)
    by Coldblue on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:48:51 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It would be amazing (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:53:23 PM EST
    To hear something like that from Obama.

    But I think the real truth of Obama is that he couldn't say the last paragraph without fibbing.

    Would Obama expect everyone who has voted for him to vote for Clinton???

    I don't think so.

    One can say I'm wrong if they want.


    [ Parent ]

    Actually he has said the opposite (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Virginian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:00:27 PM EST
    Something to the effect that many of his supporters would NOT vote for HRC...

    Michelle Obama carried that note on GMA or Today a number of weeks back too...

    I think it is clear at this point that he is not about the party, but is about the end goal (party be damned).

    [ Parent ]

    If (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by tek on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:10:16 PM EST
    Barack Obama thinks he's crafting an appealing image by attacking elderly white women in an attempt to discredit Hillary, I think he needs a new adviser.  It's so interesting to me that Geraldine Ferraro will not back down from her comments and insists to everyone who interviews her that her comments were taken out of context by Obama and she has received mountains of vicious mail and calls from his staffers.

    It appears the Obama camp went trolling for something to fling at Clinton because their Powers went overboard.

    I was watching Ferraro with Diane Sawyer.  She slapped Sawyer around but good.

    [ Parent ]

    Hang In Gerry (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Athena on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:19:16 PM EST
    Ferraro is a tough veteran of NYC politics, and she won't go away.  Good for her.

    [ Parent ]
    My first vote was for Ferraro (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:21:28 PM EST
    my birthday fell in the right timeframe so I got to vote for her when I was seventeen.  This was when you had to punch out the holes (hanging chads!).  My hand shook I was so excited.  I still get excited when I see her.  She made me consider the possibility...

    [ Parent ]
    Me, too (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:32:19 PM EST
    Mondale/Ferraro were my first presidential vote. I felt so proud, voting for a women for vice-president. I know it's sexist. I knew even then that they didn't stand a chance against Reagan, but she made me feel like women had a chance, like we were equal. I've learned a lot since then. I hadn't realized how much she meant to me until a couple of years ago, when she was interviewed in one of those "joke" interview segments on The Daily Show. She wasn't in on the joke, and they humiliated her. I was furious. I stopped watching the show for a long time, and I still don't watch their stupid interviews. I was so angry. Do not mess with Ferraro. She is an elder "statesman" to women of my generation. She doesn't deserve this. If they disagree with her, say so, but they should treat her with the respect she deserves.

    [ Parent ]
    I was living in PR and couldn't vote. (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:50:03 PM EST
    But since I had Voted for Carter in 80 I guess even though I was a Republican I would have voted for them.  Never did like Reagan

    [ Parent ]
    These statements above about Ferraro (none / 0) (#147)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:22:29 PM EST
    are just beautiful.  You said it all, I need not say more.  Thank you.

    Except to agree wholeheartedly that the imagery of Obama kicking around old ladies is not a good one.  I wonder if Alice Palmer is watching Gerry Ferraro?

    [ Parent ]

    They were taken out of context (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:24:51 PM EST
    Actually, they were distorted beyond recognition. I've heard people say that she said he was "lucky" to be black, that a black man couldn't be president without "affirmative action", and that she denied that he had any positive qualifications for the presidency. All she said was that a person with as little experience as Obama would not have a chance if he were white or a woman. She didn't say the only reason he was a Presidential candidate was that he is black - she said that it was what is putting him over the top right now.

    And she is 100% right. Barack Obama has a lot of talent and brains, and I think he could have been a presidential contender in a few years no matter what shade his skin is. But I can't think of any person in recent history who has become president with as light a political resume as Obama. We've had a lot of governors, military leaders, Congressional leaders. Obama is a first-term Congressman. There is no reason that he should have gotten as far as he has. Charisma is good, but this isn't American Idol. This is the man who might have to lead America out of one of the worst financial crises in history... the man who has to find a way to get us out of Iraq without destabilizing the middle east... the man who might have to respond to another terrorist attack at any time. Good public speaking skills are not going to pull us out of the mess we are in.

    [ Parent ]

    Well said... (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Rainsong on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:18:03 PM EST
    I've been collecting sayings like this from scrapbook:

    Charisma is good, but this isn't American Idol.

    I originally supported Edwards, but when he dropped out I turned to next-best, Clinton - because its the economy, stupid. Its health care, stupid. Its experience in large-scale politics, administration and governance, stupid. Its standing for the core principles of the Democratic Party, stupid. No matter how bitter the primaries can be in some election years, usually the 'also-rans' still end up with some respect and dignity, for having run as Democrats, even if they trail right through to the end of the season with no chance at all.  

    So, before the Super-Tuesday aftermath I would have still voted for Obama like a good Democrat if he'd won, but when I saw the race-card played, (against the Clintons??) I asked more questions about him.

    I could even overlook his lack of experience, but when I looked at his closest advisors who might end up in his Cabinet, I became frightened of the guy. At the very least, I could see myself protesting against him within a year.

    Then I checked the detail on his health plan, and his Illinois and Senate records, and my warning radar started beeping very loudly - I don't agree with his politics on almost everything, he's just too far to the right. Sorry, Obama supporters.

    everything else about him - his tactics, the flip-flopping vague waffle, the same rhetoric repeated over-and-over, the mysogyny, threatening women voters with Roe vs Wade dog-whistles, bullying blackmail coded into every MSM, the Gomer Pyle gaffes on foreign policy etc, (the list goes on) just reinforced the radar beeps off the scale.

    [ Parent ]

    The sad thing is that (none / 0) (#152)
    by BrandingIron on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:25:15 PM EST
    some of the hard Obama supporters here don't see Obama's own playing of his rather huge race card;  they seem to absolutely stay away from/don't want to read Sean Wilentz's excellent article about how he's played the race card all along and blamed the Clintons (something that some of us lowly bloggers have noticed since the beginning).

    [ Parent ]
    Readiness... (none / 0) (#106)
    by faux facsimile on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:49:48 PM EST
    I seem to recall that in 1992, we elected a 46-year old Democrat with no experience in federal politics to the presidency. Guy by the name of Clinton. Oddly, his predecessor had 8 years in the White House and 6 years at the CIA. In spite of that, Mr. Reagan.V.P still lost his reelection campaign, and history says, it was to a better candidate.

    So why is this 46-year old Democrat any less ready?

    [ Parent ]

    Experience (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by dissenter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:53:01 PM EST
    The man had 8 years of executive experience as a Gov to start with. There are lots of agencies to run even in Arkansas. And then there is the fact we are in TWO wars at the moment with about 200,000 Americans, plus contractors in harms way. The times are a bit different wouldn't you say?

    [ Parent ]
    10 years actually ... (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:57:08 PM EST
    he served 2 years, was defeated, came back two years later and was re-elected, then served for another eight years.

    [ Parent ]
    A lot of presidents were governors (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:55:27 PM EST
    Bill Clinton ran Arkansas for 14 years. I'll grant that it was just running a state, but a lot of President's started in Governor's mansion's. It's all just a matter of scale. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I believe more President's were former governor's than were former Congressmen.

    So... what has Obama run? What leadership roles has he filled that will provide the kind of experience we need in a President?

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, Bush was a governor, so he had (none / 0) (#151)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:25:01 PM EST
    more executive experience than Obama.

    Is this really where the Obamans want to go?

    "He's almost as experienced as Bush was" is not a winning slogan.

    [ Parent ]

    Experience does not ensure competence (none / 0) (#176)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:38:51 PM EST
    I'll grant you that. But being president is not an on-the-job learning opportunity. He has to know how to set up an office, how to pick the right people to run it, how to get the kind of information he is going to need on the fly. It's possible to not have all of that even if you have executive experience. I don't see how it is possible to have it if you don't.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:02:15 PM EST
    I know he has said the opposite.

    He doesn't want to upset his voters who have spent the last 15 years hating Clintons and would rather hold onto that hate than do what's right for the country.


    [ Parent ]

    Wants to take advantage of (none / 0) (#77)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:24:23 PM EST
    is probably more accurate.

    When someone really comes up with a new approach to politics that works, that will signal that we have evolved into different species.

    For the moment we are stuck in the human version of politics that none of us either individually or collectively can avoid.

    [ Parent ]

    This is going to keep me awake (none / 0) (#139)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:16:02 PM EST
    tonight, thinking.  What a provocative statement!

    [ Parent ]
    You say that, yet it is not he who (none / 0) (#41)
    by halstoon on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:04:34 PM EST
    continues to attack and disparage the other candidate in the face of nearly insurmountable odds.

    If the person who cannot overcome a delegate lead stays in the race, maybe it's not the leader who is only concerned for themselves.

    [ Parent ]

    The popular vote (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:06:28 PM EST
    Is well within reach.

    [ Parent ]
    Myth... (none / 0) (#84)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:32:02 PM EST
    ...of course his delegate lead is surmountable.  Obama's myth that superdelegates are a rubber stamp doesn't reflect on reality.  And, as stated, his popular vote lead is far from insurmountable given that 5 million voters are yet to weigh in...

    [ Parent ]
    You don't give up (none / 0) (#87)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:34:27 PM EST
    That's a basic tenet in the American psyche. You don't give up when you have a decent chance of success. I'll admit that Clinton is a longshot, but longshots do sometimes pull through. You do not pull your horse out of the race because it isn't the favorite.

    [ Parent ]
    And she knows that for posterity (none / 0) (#144)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:19:43 PM EST
    she stays in as long as she can.  The children are watching.  The next generation can go farther only if the generation before goes as far as it can.

    Seriously.  I have listened to Clinton for many years, and she has a sense of history -- and especially knows women's history.  She knows that even if we don't win today, it is only by trying as hard as we can today can we ever win tomorrow.

    She will not go down in history as the woman who gave up too soon.  If the guys going after her to quit would get this simple truth, they would save themselves time and save us from stupid stories.

    [ Parent ]

    Ferraro. Pelosi. Clinton. (none / 0) (#183)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:42:17 PM EST
    There are more, I know. They are weakening the glass ceiling. Someday our children's daughters may break through entirely. Most developed nations have had female leaders. For some reason we can't quite pull it off. But classy performances like this help. It was like when Jesse Jackson ran a few years back. I'm not a big Jackson fan. He is too much of a self-promoter for me. But he ran a clean campaign, and I gained respect for him.

    [ Parent ]
    The obvious... (none / 0) (#185)
    by mg7505 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:43:18 PM EST
    Obama didn't pull out back in winter when he was WAY behind Clinton in polls, $$, name recognition, media coverage... let's not expect Clinton to give up on odds that are way better than Obama's ever were. People who just brush her aside (the "just let Obama win already!" types) are the same ones who brush aside actually thinking about who should win this election.

    [ Parent ]
    He said they wouldn't (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:01:37 PM EST
    He said that one advantage to voting for him was that his supporters wouldn't vote for Clinton, while hers would vote for him. His wife wouldn't even commit to voting for Clinton if she won the nomination.

    [ Parent ]
    I know (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:02:56 PM EST
    It's very disheartening.

    [ Parent ]
    It was wrong. (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:10:41 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It can still be made (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:12:01 PM EST
    Right.


    [ Parent ]
    Not for me (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by dissenter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:15:45 PM EST
    I will never vote for him now. I would have several weeks ago even with my reservations.

    My very first vote for president was Mondale/Ferraro. There are a lot of women that remember what she put up with when she ran. This is just a replay.

    I don't trust Obama. I don't think he is a Democrat and there is almost nothing or any amount of whiskey that could get me to change my mind.

    [ Parent ]

    I hope you will reconsider (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:27:30 PM EST
    your position.  I don't like either, but I will vote for "The Democrat" in this election no matter what - and I will deal with their issues as we go along - I know that will be better than anything that McCain would offer.

    [ Parent ]
    The problem is (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by dissenter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:32:37 PM EST
    I don't think he is a Democrat. I also have a perspective here that might differ from a lot of people on the blog. I spend year in both Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy simplifies things to the point of absurdity. He has no clue how hard it is going to be to get out or even what needs to be done.

    Don't get me wrong, we need to get out but it isn't as simple as driving a tank back down the road. We have jeopardized the lives of tens of thousands of locals. What do we do about that now. Leave them to be slaughtered? It is this kind of simplicity that sends me over the edge. We need thoughtfulness and planning. He gives speeches about things he knows nothing about. Hell, I have more foreign policy experience than he does. His advisers are running around the world making stupid comments, undermining US policies and he isn't even the Dem nominee.

    Plus, I can't go with him on social security, increasing payroll taxes, I hate his health plan, etc. There really is no there, there for me. There is nothing to vote for when I add it all up

    [ Parent ]

    I'm 100% with you on this. (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by RalphB on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:39:47 PM EST
    He scares me with so little experience.  To me, he's the equivalent of Bush and I do not want another of those, ever.


    [ Parent ]
    I'm routinely scoffed at... (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:48:11 PM EST
    ...when I point out that Obama is to the right of Clinton.  No mandate for universal healthcare.  Refusal to cap mortgage interest rates or stall foreclosures.  Economic advisers with long histories of espousing free markets and semi-private retirement plans.  Watered down 'present' votes on choice legislation.

    But bring this up and you'll get smacked with a single vote from Clinton in 2002 which instantly makes her the neo-con poster girl

    [ Parent ]

    You can still vote down ticket for Dems (none / 0) (#154)
    by Salt on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:25:52 PM EST
    if he would gain the nomination, larger margins in the Senate are needed to move a Dem agenda and also not provide a rationale for not moving one as well, like the FISA Telecom immunity many Dems like McCaskill crossed over, unfortunately.

    [ Parent ]
    That's my strategy (none / 0) (#189)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:44:17 PM EST
    If we can give him a Congress that is Democratic enough, we can mitigate the damange either he or McCain would do to our nation. I'm supporting a downticket Dem who has a decent shot at a pickup, but the race will be competitive. Charlie Brown is our man.

    [ Parent ]
    Those of us who remember (none / 0) (#157)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:28:09 PM EST
    how the Vietnam War ended are with you on this -- on a withdrawal that does not leave those who worked with us in desperate straits to almost certain death.

    And thank you for your service.  I hope all is well.

    [ Parent ]

    Thank You (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by dissenter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:40:48 PM EST
    I'm okay. Thinking about the people left behind keeps me up at night though. My brother is a combat medic. He just got home today. We are the lucky ones and we never forget that. I am glad there are people here that do think about those that worked for us and put their lives on the line. They are going to need a lobby soon enough. I will count you in.

    [ Parent ]
    I trust him even less (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by BrandingIron on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:28:03 PM EST
    since he's been getting away with political murder with all of the sexism and crying racism (of having his surrogates crying racism).  I don't know why Americans are putting up with this at all, or why they're swallowing it up whole, as the Clintons have decades upon decades of civil rights activism behind them.

    [ Parent ]
    Collective guilt (none / 0) (#193)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:47:49 PM EST
    We recognize racist tendencies in each of us. We all have them. The more self-aware people see them, and control them. Those less aware give all of us a bad name. People want to prove that they can elect a black president. Obama is a good candidate. He has everything going for him, except that one big flaw (inexperience) which could easily be fixed. But they don't want to wait. Who knows what could happen in 8 years while he's getting experience? For one thing, that experience will require making decisions which will be used against him. Better to lean in the safe direction and let him have it now. It's not like he won't be able to learn on the job. Even Bush did that. Of course, look how things turned out.

    [ Parent ]
    At least Hillary (none / 0) (#72)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:20:12 PM EST
    Has gone on record to say you're wrong to think or feel this way.

    BTW, I agree with you and not her on this issue.


    [ Parent ]

    I interned at Silver Cup Studios ... (none / 0) (#81)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:31:15 PM EST
    and one day I was dressing a set for commercial.  We were told a very important person was going to be in this commercial, and we'd all have to leave the set during shooting.

    I didn't find out till some weeks later that it was Geraldine Ferraro doing that Diet Pepsi Ad with her daughters.

    [ Parent ]

    absolutely (none / 0) (#75)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:21:47 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    dianem (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:04:11 PM EST
    to be fair, MO said she'd have to hear Clinton's "tone" before she made the decision.  She didn't rule it out completely.  Fingers crossed!

    [ Parent ]
    What's her alternative? (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:35:23 PM EST
    I don't think it's tenable for any high profile Democrat to express reservations about voting for the party nominee in a general election.

    [ Parent ]
    Completely delusional (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by RalphB on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:56:17 PM EST
    This is worthy of the Bushie's self-created reality.

    Obama-Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by chemoelectric on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:13:51 PM EST
    I've made a little Obama-Clinton banner for my LiveJournal. I don't like Hillary Clinton anymore, as in I don't want to go out for coffee with her, but we really could use her on the ticket IMO.

    (The banner is copylefted.)

    I have little doubt that Obama will be the nominee, so I think I have the order right. No?

    Simply picking her as a VP (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:20:07 PM EST
    Won't make me want to vote for him.


    [ Parent ]
    And why would she accept (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by dissenter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:22:43 PM EST
    It is laughable. She should go for majority leader in that scenario. A lot more powerful, and meaningful.

    [ Parent ]
    The only way I could imagine it (none / 0) (#158)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:28:16 PM EST
    Is if they gave her the kind of power Cheney now has in the Bush white house.

    You know like setting policy and running things while Obama makes all the nice speeches.

    I could see that.  Even then it's just another man taking credit for a woman's work.  On a national scale.  But that's what would be best for the country if it came down to it.

    If they were just bringing her along to get Clinton voters, and not to give her any real power in the administration then she's associating her name with a potential nightmare of incompetence.

    So really it depends on what kind of deal they struck.

    [ Parent ]

    Nah (none / 0) (#164)
    by dissenter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:32:10 PM EST
    Can't you see Hillary at the barricades holding up the horrible judicial appointments. It kinda makes me smile. She can do way more in the Senate and set herself up for 2012 if that is what she wants.

    Being Obama's lap dog is not in the cards. I just can't see it.

    [ Parent ]

    For some reason (none / 0) (#167)
    by BrandingIron on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:32:57 PM EST
    I just got this image of Clinton out hunting with a friend...I think it's the Cheney thing.

    [ Parent ]
    Ditto. (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by BrandingIron on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:31:45 PM EST
    And I see that the blog's picked up some other fellow LiveJournallers (I've been courting the more sound writers to come take a peek, so forgive me if any of the new ones misbehave)...cool.

    But yeah, I don't know about the VP slot for Clinton.  Her talents would be wasted in that slot.  Obama's would be honed in that spot.  Clinton/Obama would be unbeatable, IMHO.  Obama/Clinton...notsomuch.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:29:23 PM EST
    The more experienced woman as VP on the ticket with the less experienced man as P is just going to piss a lot of women off.

    Sounds good to you.  Not to me.

    [ Parent ]

    actually... (none / 0) (#173)
    by white n az on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:36:37 PM EST
    ignoring gender issues (which are large and almost impossible to ignore)...

    The P/VP inexperience/experience factor is exactly what we have in place now with Bush/Cheney.

    So in theory, she might be a very powerful Vice-President, following Cheney's footsteps and just guessing that Obama might be the kind of President that would benefit from an experienced VP.

    On the other hand...there seems to be no way that he would ask her, little likelihood of her accepting. I think that they would take a long look and see what the likelihood of Obama winning the general election and it just seems impossible, with or without Hillary on the ticket.

    [ Parent ]

    Either Way (none / 0) (#211)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:59:45 PM EST
    Works for me. Allows for lots of face saving.

    [ Parent ]
    Warped - again (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:15:10 PM EST
    "Their plan was to get the support of voters who were hesitant to vote for a black man by making race an issue"

    This is just nonsense.  In the weeks leading up to the South Carolina primary - where the population is 50% black - charges of race-baiting mysteriously emerged.  At the time Clinton polled quite well among African-Americans and those racist white folks weren't going to vote for Obama anyway.

    So...who stands to gain when the Clintons are suggested to be disparaging African-Americans?  Certainly not Clinton.  She loses blacks and gains... the whites who would've already voted for her?

    Ask yourself who gains and then ask who's most likely to have pushed the meme.

    It's the simplest rule in politics ... (none / 0) (#153)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:25:24 PM EST
    who stood to gain?

    Obama.

    So who is likely to have done it?

    Obama.

    Is there evidence of his involvement?

    Yes.

    So he did it.

    Only those who've placed their critical reasoning faculties in a blind trust, would see it otherwise.

    [ Parent ]

    When has Hillary Clinton (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by miriam on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:28:20 PM EST
    ever dissed black voters?  You are, in effect, accusing her of being stupid as well as racist.  She was not the one who alienated black voters, far from it.  But Obama needed the African-American votes and, by making the Clintons look racist, he got them.  (Remember the 4-page memo?) Which to me was a particularly despicable tactic.    

    Looking back at looking forward... (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:40:47 PM EST
    Here is a good illustration at some of the differences that define Obama supporters and Clinton supporters. The expectations Rorschach...

    TPM looks back at an article with the views of Jesse Jackson and Geraldine Ferraro on the 2006 race between an African-American and a woman--and comes up with the snarky conclusion that "[Ferraro Was] For Reason Before She Was Against It?"

    When I look back at that article from 2006--in which both Jackson and Ferraro express the idea that a woman will have it easier than an African-American in the election--I realize just how much I did not expect the openness of the progressive media and voters to sexist and misogynistic discourses, regardless of whether that discourse is overt or cloaked in Clinton Derangement Syndrome.  

    --and thanks Foxhole, for the compliment.

    correction... (none / 0) (#181)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:42:00 PM EST
    ... looks back at a 2006 article.... on the 2008 race..."

    [ Parent ]
    You're awfully quiet. Good night and I'll be (none / 0) (#1)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:30:22 PM EST
    pulling for you tomorrow. Maybe we'll get lucky and both be playing Sunday at 1:00.

    When it gets close to 200 comments (none / 0) (#6)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:36:53 PM EST
    my screen goes haywire with cryptic data and most of the comments aren't all there. Does that happen to everyone? Any point of interest left over from the previous thread?

    i'm a newbie (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by TheRefugee on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:41:16 PM EST
    but apparently talkleft has some sort of limitation on comments---200 being the cutoff which is why you see all 'comments closed' notations as 200 comments is approached or exceeded.  don't know about why your screen gets mixed up...but that might be the cause.

    [ Parent ]
    Look At Your User Perferences (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:49:20 PM EST
    For comments. Change overflow mode to nested.

    That may help.

    [ Parent ]

    Squeaky, thanks for tech tip. (none / 0) (#27)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:54:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The dollar vs euro (none / 0) (#9)
    by Coldblue on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:39:43 PM EST
    My US (Virginia) made vacuum tube power amplifier uses Russian made vacuum tubes. After eight years of constant use, the amp needed new tubes.

    $329.

    Yikes (none / 0) (#10)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:41:09 PM EST
    At least the russians will put your money to good use! :)

    [ Parent ]
    OUCH (none / 0) (#11)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:41:13 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Thats a lot of Vodka (none / 0) (#13)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:41:46 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    guitar amp? (none / 0) (#19)
    by TheRefugee on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:49:05 PM EST
    mine has 16 tubes...12 relatively cheap at 20 bucks per...4 which are 100 bucks per

    [ Parent ]
    HiFi (none / 0) (#22)
    by Coldblue on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:52:22 PM EST
    2 channel.

    I'm an analog guy living in a digital world; and loving it.

    [ Parent ]

    There is a certain moodiness to (none / 0) (#25)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:54:05 PM EST
    analogue sound

    [ Parent ]
    I'm an audio guy (none / 0) (#29)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:55:46 PM EST
    And I love solid state, cuz its cheap! :)

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah (none / 0) (#44)
    by Coldblue on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:08:21 PM EST
    but it sounds so bad (most of the time). And I don't have an iPod either :-)

    [ Parent ]
    It's like comparing pixels and brush strokes (none / 0) (#49)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:10:17 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Go analog! (none / 0) (#47)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:10:00 PM EST
    Here's a gadget to give your digital world that analog flavor.

    I've been wanting one of these for months.  But I can't convince myself it's worth the price.

    It's a nifty little amp though.

    [ Parent ]

    I am new to blogging and commenting... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:44:25 PM EST
    so I just wanted to follow up on a discussion from the last open thread.

    Obama may be willing to alienate Clinton's voters right now because the statistical evidence suggests that Democratic women seem to stick with the party. From the featured article at Corrente that I linked to in the previous thread:

    "The expansion of the gender gap is due almost entirely to changes in how men vote. Only a few more women (1.6%, comprising 0.9% of all voters) prefer Clinton when matched with McCain than when Obama is matched with McCain--women pretty much stick with the Democrat regardless of whether its Clinton or Obama."

    I should not have tried to surmise why that is... My interest in the last thread was to think through Obama's strategy, not guess why American women vote the way they do. My bad. Mea culpa. My apologies for the single-issue reductionism.


    Depends on the poll (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by RalphB on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:52:09 PM EST