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Weds. Night Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat

Your turn. Open Thread. Play nice. Hasta luego.

NOTE -Comments closed.

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    Thanks BTD. According to Tweety and (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:08:09 PM EST
    April Ryan, a spokesperson for Urban Radio, Monica Lewinsky is the new comeback kid of this election. Ms. Ryan brought her up first in Tweety's defense but I'm sure he got a tingle up his leg.

    I'm so starved for talk ... (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:17:15 PM EST
    about actual issues that I was about to bring one up, but my current issue-starved mind seems unable to think of one.

    Can someone bring up an issue, any issue?  You know like something that effects real people?  So I can get the bad taste of political strategy conversations out of my mouth.

    Think of it as a palette cleanser.  The blogospheric equivalent to lemon sorbet.

    March Madness? The most wonderful (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:23:16 PM EST
    time of the year.

    [ Parent ]
    Can't come soon enough for me. (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:25:12 PM EST
    ...my spouse and I will be able to sit in the same room and watch television again. He's upstairs watching you know who. Me, I'm watching HGTV.

    [ Parent ]
    Okay (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by hitchhiker on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:47:44 PM EST
    I'm 1500 miles from home and I spent the day at the hospital sitting with my critically injured brother and the rest of my family.

    Not your standard sad story . . . he was an alcoholic who lived on the absolute margin -- just barely getting by, small-time gambling, letting his health go to hell.

    He had a small stroke last year that left him with tunnel vision and a permanent sense of confusion.  Then last Friday, the ultimate series of unfortunate events: drunk on his ass, a 2nd stroke, and a bad fall down a flight of stairs.  Brain injury.  Surgery to relieve swelling that required removal of the occipital lobe.  If he wakes up, he's blind.

    So . . . we're here trying to be okay with what we have to do.  He could probably survive for quite a while in this condition; we're all hoping he just slips away but I don't think that will happen.

    So what's my issue?
    The end of life his life is promising to be unexpectedly healing to the rest of us.  For him, it's just a dismal, grotesque, horrible thing.

    See?  No politics at all.

    [ Parent ]

    My brother was an (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by echinopsia on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:44:41 PM EST
    Alcoholic, convicted felon, wife beater, liar, cheater, thief. Died at 42.

    I had a dream the other night that he was still alive. Woke up relieved that it was a dream.

    I feel your pain (not being snarky).

    I also felt a very peculiar form of grief when he died. Sad that he'd wasted his life causing so much pain to the people who loved him.

    [ Parent ]

    Well your brother's story (none / 0) (#64)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:02:01 PM EST
    is painfully similar to my Dad's story.

    I hope that whatever is best...happens.

    [ Parent ]

    Sounds an awful lot like my Dad's story (none / 0) (#76)
    by RalphB on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:07:30 PM EST
    Best wishes for you and your family in a trying time.


    [ Parent ]
    Then avoid Olbermann (none / 0) (#60)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:00:28 PM EST
    ...who is clearly off his rocker devoting a 15 minute "Special Comment" to bloviating on the non-scandal of Ferraro's comment.

    One more so-called "liberal" bites the dust...

    [ Parent ]

    Olbermann (none / 0) (#142)
    by gish720 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:43:33 PM EST
    Just sounds really off his rocker, speaking like an elocution teacher, don't know what has made him this angry. I haven't watched his show in some time and clearly he's consumed with this self righteous indignation shctick.

    An unrelated question; could someone please explain to me what the "okey-doke" thing means?  I honestly don't have a clue.

    [ Parent ]

    Words, (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:04:32 PM EST
    Malcolm X used the words hoodwink, bamboozle, been had, etc.  Obama used hoodwink, bamboozle, and okie-dokie.   They all mean the same thing.

    [ Parent ]
    Indeed... (none / 0) (#196)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:14:27 PM EST
    "You've been hoodwinked. You've been had. You've been took. You've been led astray, led amok. You've been bamboozled."

    [ Parent ]
    I was confused too... (none / 0) (#171)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:59:39 PM EST
    ...but looked it up in the Urban Dictionary.  Apparently it means you've been conned or tricked.

    [ Parent ]
    As in ... (none / 0) (#212)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:26:00 PM EST
    being tricked into saying yes (okey-doke), thus cons or tricks came to be referred to as "the okey-doke."

    [ Parent ]
    Okwy dokey is just a varian of OK, isn't it? (none / 0) (#217)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:31:25 PM EST
    That was what it meant when I was growing up. Is there some other context?

    [ Parent ]
    It's a sad day (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:39:48 PM EST
    when I find myself agreeing with Pat Buchanan.

    and other are turning to Fox news... (none / 0) (#129)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:35:05 PM EST
    for NEWS.  Dogs will be mating with cats soon.

    Did anyone watch NBC news tonight?  They showed a clip of Obama opening up a paneled white door, walking past an array of international flags, walking up a US flag-lined area, stepping up onto a blue-carpeted platform surrounded by suits and grasping the podium...

    Yeah, it looks like they are staging him now as if he's already the POTUS.  Unbelievable.  It would be laughable if this wasn't the same thing Bush did back in 2000.  Remember that, how he acted like he'd already won so much that people started to believe him?

    [ Parent ]

    Yeesh. Dd the staging have that whole ... (none / 0) (#164)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:55:22 PM EST
    ... "dick in a box" thing happening?

    I got somethin' real important to give you
    So just sit down and listen


    [ Parent ]

    Wow (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:59:34 PM EST
    KO is livid.  He looks like he's about to pop a cork.  He's scowling his nose is wrinkled he's so disgusted... apparently he doesn't like Bill or sleeping children.... he's ranting again.  No, I'm not going to turn up the volume.  I am having a glass of wine and don't want to harsh my mellow.....

    Thanks for mellowing my mellow (none / 0) (#61)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:00:46 PM EST
    You are too funny.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, I wonder how many people are like (none / 0) (#183)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:08:33 PM EST
    me on this issue: the incredibly histrionic, eye-popping rage over something pretty innocuous---and true---is grotesquely funny.

    [ Parent ]
    Keith Olbermann (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Coldblue on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:02:53 PM EST
    deserves to have the top rated diary on Daily Kos.

    He keeps like company.

    hey KO (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by TheRefugee on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:04:52 PM EST
    count me out of being an even sometimes viewer anymore.  Your sanctimony is only exceeded by your hypocrisy.

    Opening:  "I'm not choosing sides in the battle between Obama and Clinton."

    Um, KO, you made that evident weeks ago.  You are the national spokesman for Obama.

    Basically you just called Hillary Clinton a racist.  You just called Hillary Clinton a liar.  

    You don't make any comparisons to Obama.  Obama hasn't patently and vociferously denounced the phrase "She's a monster"  or the person who spouted the words.  Obama didn't force Powers out, she resigned of her own accord.  Why aren't you holding Obama's feet to the fire sparked by the words of his supporters?  Because Jesse Jackson Jr has a history of misogynistic and homophobic comments is Obama "awash in the mess" of JJ Jr's beliefs and statements?

    Two-faced?  Double standard?  Hypocritical?  Sanctimonious bloviating?  Yes to all.  Go away Keith you besmirch the memory of the one you try to pay homage to, Edward R Murrow.  

    Goodbye Keith, Good night and good luck.

    Did he really say (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:09:38 PM EST
    that he wasn't choosing sides between Obama and Clinton?

    That alone blows my hair back.

    Yep, Wiley will never get my viewership again.  What a scumbag.

    [ Parent ]

    Say what? (none / 0) (#92)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:15:09 PM EST
    Chemoelectric said he was kind to Clinton.  Really?  Knowing MSNBC and KO, I find that hard to believe.  What did he say that was nice?

    [ Parent ]
    No, he was not kind (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Practically Lactating on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:25:13 PM EST
    He did that "earnest outrage" shtick that is so common in the blogosphere.  

    The key is to vacillate between anger and sorrow, channeling a child that has just had his favorite blankie shredded by that monster Hillary Clinton.  Think anger, betrayal, and self-righteousness.

    [ Parent ]

    He addressed her as Senator rather than (none / 0) (#104)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:20:01 PM EST
    Monster. That's about it.

    I need to read the transcript to fact check but he said Powers resigned by dawn the day after her comment. Wasn't it two days?

    The most stupid was calling the 3:00 am ad borderline.

    [ Parent ]

    Timing (none / 0) (#205)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:21:36 PM EST
    Was that from when she said in the article or when she got caught?

    [ Parent ]
    Power made the remarks to the newspaper (none / 0) (#211)
    by Dawn Davenport on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:25:35 PM EST
    a week ahead of when she resigned, which was a day or two after the story broke, about the same length of time it took Ferraro.


    [ Parent ]
    Well, his hair looked good ... (none / 0) (#203)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:20:00 PM EST
    and that's about the only kind thing I can say about KO tonight.

    [ Parent ]
    Pat just (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by PlayInPeoria on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:09:17 PM EST
    told Rachel to shut up on Abrams show.... they are discussing Geraldine.

    Like Manuel (above) (none / 0) (#83)
    by Polkan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:11:31 PM EST
    I'm also getting a little nervous that I agree with Pat (race is a big contributing factor to Obama's success)....

    :-(

    [ Parent ]

    Well he is obviously correct :-) (none / 0) (#95)
    by RalphB on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:16:30 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Not Rachel. The other lady. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:11:32 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Kelly (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by PlayInPeoria on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:19:37 PM EST
    Sheshe interrupted him while he was talking by  talking about black men in America... And he told her to shut up... I about bfell off my chair!

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry, but she should have been told that (none / 0) (#152)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:46:51 PM EST
    sooner by Abrams.  I can't listen to two people talking at once.

    Too bad Buchanan had to say it, but somebody had to stop her nonstop stuff for the sake of the viewer.

    And, yes, Buchanan is one of the best on tv these days.  I also am undergoing attitude adjustment in saying that.  But it's not me; it's how bad the rest of them are in the media.

    [ Parent ]

    Don't get me (none / 0) (#163)
    by PlayInPeoria on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:54:02 PM EST
    wrong... I'm with you on that. But I just couldn't believe he actually told her to shut up. I haven't seen Pat so that before.

    [ Parent ]
    why does it make you feel better (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by cy street on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:18:14 PM EST
    to belittle mister obama or miz clinton?  we are fortunate as a party to be in this situation so far as i can tell.  the battle being waged is driving up voter rolls, keeping their names in the free national media and proving to the voters at large that these two have the steel to lead the country.

    one will lose.
    one will win.

    what is gained by engaging in the mocking, character assassinations and clever back biting that goes on here?

    it reminds me of the recount in two thousand.  only this time its dem on dem.  sad if you ask me.

    i will be pleased to support the clintons or the obamas.  i look up to both.  why does the party have to torn apart on the basis of what is projected upon one or the other?

    this blog outpost and others like it might consider a what reconciliation looks like before it's too late.

    Considering our tiny, netty world... (5.00 / 4) (#109)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:23:19 PM EST
    As an outsider of the inner blogger realm, political campaigns, the media, and DC, I have been confused by the Obama's current campaign strategy. To whom does the Obama campaign and Keith Olbermann express their outrage?

    I noted elsewhere, I think the Obama campaign changed its strategy recently to reclaim the narrative in the media in a particular way. At first, I thought that meant to target the few remaining undecided voters and states in the nomination process. However, the national tracking polls show that the race has completely calcified. There is nothing but movement within the statistical error range, with each candidate gaining 45% of the likely Democratic voters week-to=week. What if the Obama campaign came to the realization that unity is no longer an effective political strategy?

    That would explain the heightened alienation of Clinton voters in the past week--they are not targeting us or independents at the moment. Greg Sargent suggests as much: "The Obama camp is now ratcheting up its public and private efforts to neutralize [Clinton's electability] argument, in hopes of persuading the super-dels to follow the winner of the pledged-del count." Enlarging that to a general strategy, the Obama campaign, with a six week hiatus until the next primary, appears to have abandoned the primary fight in order to marshal the superdelegates in the future.

    This also means that the Obama campaign is willing to shoot the moon with its own constituency: there is nothing he can say or do that will alienate his 45%. So, the current gambits over Florida/Michigan and charges of racism against esteemed superdelegates in the Democratic Party are not directed at the party rank-and-file. If we accept BTD's positions on Obama's gambit over Michigan/Florida and the pillory of Ferraro, it seems possible (I won't say reasonable) to consider that the Obama campaign wants to intimidate superdelegates. The Obama campaign is working over superdelegates such that it is next to impossible for them to enforce party rules in a way that disadvantages his current delegate lead.

    That said, the Obama-blogosphere and Keith Olbermann must also have superdelegates in mind. High-profile bloggers aside, Olbermann is not a stupid man, he must realize the potential to alienate 45% of his current viewers with a strong denunciation of the Clinton campaign on trumped-up charges of organized, coded racism. Yet, Olbermann, and MSNBC, like the blogs, are willing to risk that. If not for viewership, then, Olbermann's efforts must be for effect, and MSNBC then believes that Olbermann will have an effect on superdelegates' behavior.

    Over the weekend, I believe TL exposed the fact that Obama lost his electability argument in Texas and Ohio. The Obama campaign's last resort at this point seems to be to hamstring the party leaders so that the "rules" work in his favor.

    Oje, you've left me gob-smacked. (none / 0) (#133)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:38:42 PM EST
    Your argument is unassailable to me. Especially, as to the super-dels being intimidated by charges of racism. "Racism" was the first charge that effectively 'gored' Senator Clinton. I posted upstream about the difference between the outcomes of the Ferraro and Paterson stories this week.  

    [ Parent ]
    How would he (none / 0) (#138)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:41:10 PM EST
    get the Clinton supporters back?  I agree there is nothing he can do to alienate his base, but the number of her supporters willing to vote for him is falling.  Are you suggesting he just doesn't care about alienating Clinton supporters?  I don't see that working for the GE.

    [ Parent ]
    We are a tiny world... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:43:43 PM EST
    Talk to non-bloggers, and they only know vaguely of the charges or the actions of the campaign (especially since sites like CNN report "fair and balanced"). Plus, rank-and-file democrats remain united for both candidates, only the blogosphere is in a state of immolation.

    [ Parent ]
    Not true (none / 0) (#151)
    by dissenter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:46:39 PM EST
    Most of my friends don't go near blogs...and I've heard from three of them today saying they vote for Nader if BO is the nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, I am thinking of the exit polls... (none / 0) (#173)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:00:37 PM EST
    Like I said, I am just trying to get a grasp of events for myself. I do not understand the point of offering preposterous proposals and objections to a revote or the pillory of a superdelegate with Ferraro's stature in the party.

    My anecdotal evidence is not as uniform as yours, but I live/work in a high Obama density environment.  Could Obama miscalculate the pushback? Sure. Might they expect? Yes. Perhaps they hope time heals all.

    [ Parent ]

    No healing (none / 0) (#180)
    by dissenter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:06:21 PM EST
    My friends are from IA, VA and CO. All women. And they aren't looking for a make up kiss. They are simply done.

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmm... (none / 0) (#192)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:13:08 PM EST
    I should think that, with the Supreme Court on the line, women voters are the most elastic group of voters to alienate.

    If Democratic women do not come home to the Democratic party, they will create conditions in which Roe v. Wade is overturned. That may be a good thing in the long run - considering that the Democratic party, the bloggers, and the media seem to have deeply disturbed views of women and feminists - but that is risky choice to make for the immediate future.

    Besides, V.P. candidate Granholm or V.P. candidate Boxer or any number of other Democratic officeholders might sway them.... or, Obama has decided to bend to the will of voters and accept the Dream ticket.

    [ Parent ]

    Oje (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:26:39 PM EST
    the Supreme Court threat has become a flashpoint for me.  A couple of weeks back, every time I said something negative about Obama as a possible nom, people kept throwing up, "what about the Supreme Court?!"  Then, Obama made a comment about abortion being a "moral issue" and that he could understand the other side, and it got me to thinking that he was using just the kind of soft language that has been used over the last ten years to push through hateful legislation like the third trimester ban, and the Supreme Court stopped being a threat that worked for me, because Obama says he is a uniter and a changer, and I wondered if abortion was something that he would use as a bargaining chip to get some of this compromise he's talking about done.  Because, make no mistake-in order to get the republicans to move on things, he is going to have to sacrifice some core dem issues because he doesn't have any chits in his pocket, because he lacks the experience and the relationships a president needs to get things done.  Is abortion going to be one of those bargaining chips?  

    Is he going to sign more laws limiting a woman's right to choose, mandating time outs, mandating waiting periods (for all those women who are going to the store for bread but decide to get an abortion instead), mandating ultrasounds, mandating partner notification...?  Because those are the "moral issues" the right has been trying to legislate for years.

    (and I say this as someone whose friend was forced, here in Georgia, to carry a dead fetus in her womb for three weeks because the procedure to remove it was illegal.)

    [ Parent ]

    Or they may decide that the Dem (none / 0) (#200)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:17:59 PM EST
    nominee would not defend them as hard as they would hope.

    [ Parent ]
    Nice Try (none / 0) (#201)
    by dissenter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:19:20 PM EST
    Thanks for the concern. We are aware of the Supreme Court. However in my state I don't have to worry about that. You might find this shocking but women are not always one issue voters. Some worry about social security. Some worry about amateurs running foreign policy. Some worry about taxes. You do get the picture.

    Women tend not to vote for people that they have a visceral dislike for.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend... (none / 0) (#210)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:24:17 PM EST
    I was just responding with possibilities... I certainly do not think that women are single issue voters...

    [ Parent ]
    and... (none / 0) (#214)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:26:37 PM EST
    This is what I had in mind. Corrente shows that women were open to both candidates before the latest round of attacks. I will leave open the reason why they tend to support the Democratic party, rather than one Democratic candidate to this point.

    [ Parent ]
    Mommy dear (none / 0) (#208)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:23:13 PM EST
    My mom is not on the net and she is not happy.

    [ Parent ]
    excellent analysis! n/t (none / 0) (#147)
    by OldCoastie on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:46:09 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    So what do you think will happen? (none / 0) (#148)
    by Polkan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:46:27 PM EST
    Can the Dem superdelegates be intimidated over this issue even if it means potential loss in GE?

    Someone over at TPM already said that superdelegates will not be intimidated over something like this, they'd rather live through a few weeks' worth of "storm" but move towards GE.

    Do you agree?

    But I wonder if they can be intimidated on two fronts: this and their own constituencies.

    [ Parent ]

    I Think The Super Delegates Are Already (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:06:58 PM EST
    thinking that they will lose the AA vote if Obama does not win and that is already making a strong impact on some of their decisions.

    [ Parent ]
    I dunno... (none / 0) (#184)
    by Oje on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:08:39 PM EST
    In the past, the Obama campaign's efforts to define democracy and the will of the voters as the "pledged delegate count" failed. But, as we saw in 2000, the power of a party to overturn what appears to be the "winner of the initial vote" is a difficult prospect, particularly after the media buys in to the notion of a "winner."

    I should say, though, that I think that the campaign, the blogosphere, and the media (overly generalized) are on three distinct trajectories with their own motive power and interests. That creates three different pressure points on the superdelegates, not just one orchestrated and nefarious plot. That is what makes any response by Clinton or superdelegates so unwieldy.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree and I believe they are catching on to this (none / 0) (#218)
    by Salt on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:39:58 PM EST
    Icon Dems, regardless of what Rachel believes, being used as red meat thrown under the campaign bus charged as divisive racist and being used as an inflammatory prop for the Clinton bad Obama good rehabilitation routine yet again, same events we saw play out when Clinton won NH.  And regardless of what Obama's strategy this race will not be ended prematurely, he is not winning the Big States needed in Nov and signs are he can't pull States like Ohio after the NAFTA fumble and I don't see the Dem Governors being intimidated with by this behavior. And there are signs this isn't working this time no one other than KO and activist bloggers are running to his rescue if that was the plan, JF has coattails and was the wrong target.  A next step for all might be to re focus on what the Party can bring to the Country the good stuff, take on McCain Bush, get the racist fish hook out our noses, and don't let it be reinserted or tweaked again we all know real racist when we see one charges of racism requires more than words you don't like being used.

    [ Parent ]
    Can I share good news? My nephew will be (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:30:08 PM EST
    home for R&R on Monday! He's been gone almost ten months and it's his third tour. He has five kids with my niece (yours, mine and ours) and they all live full time with them. They aren't in on the surprise.

    Great news. Those kids will be... (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:33:56 PM EST
    ...over the moon!

    [ Parent ]
    That is awesome! (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:34:27 PM EST
    Enjoy!!!

    [ Parent ]
    congrats to him and his family as well as you (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:34:42 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Congrats! (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by smott on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:37:18 PM EST
    to Teresa and your nephew!

    [ Parent ]
    Thank all of you so much. I have shared our (none / 0) (#135)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:40:21 PM EST
    fears and pain with many friends at Daily Kos this past year and I can't go there any longer. I just needed to share the good news. Thanks.

    [ Parent ]
    Lovely piece by Nuala O'Faolain about Hillary's (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by jawbone on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:22:40 PM EST
    work in Northern Ireland with women.

    Thank you, Susie Madrak, for this post.

    http://susiemadrak.com/2008/03/11/20/56/hillary-in-ireland/

    This may be an objectional comment, but.... (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by miriam on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:05:48 PM EST
    From where I sit and from what I'm hearing, there are more and more women who are truly enraged by the treatment Hillary Clinton is receiving from the O campaign and from the media.  (I'm a historian and work in the area of women's history.)  They are vowing not to vote for O if he wins the nomination, and the Supreme Court appointments by a Republican president are secondary to their fury at learning how mysognistic this society truly is.  And they are highly suspicious, anyway, of O's ambiguous record on women's choice in the Illinois Senate.

    Here is what I'm beginning to hear with increasing
    frequency: Obama cannot win against McCain and many women will not vote for him in any event.   They are saying their emphasis will be on helping the congressional candidates, because when McCain is elected he will be effectively hog-tied by a Democratic House and Senate.  And better that, they say, than having yet another incompetent amateur, and unrealistic dreamer, in the White House.            

    Make it stop (none / 0) (#2)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:08:11 PM EST
    I can't take it anymore.  No one is a racist, they just say racist comments.

    LOL... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:14:23 PM EST
    ...heard that one during the Olbermann/Robinson pattycake game.  And of course Obama has never ever claimed anyone was racist.  Only his surrogates who of course don't speak for him (unlike Clinton's surrogates who are scripted by Hillary herself).

    [ Parent ]
    "I've been oppressed (none / 0) (#9)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:14:21 PM EST
    since the garden of Eden"  "What's an apple anyhow?"  [Eugene Robinson]  Um. OK.  VERY respectful.  If this race has proved anything, it's the inability of anyone in the media to have a serious discussion of either racism or sexism without smearing each other endlessly.  Unbelievable.

    [ Parent ]
    I hate to say it (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:19:20 PM EST
    I don't think it can happen on this blog either.

    I've been trying to point out some things that seem perfectly sane and unoffensive to me, my wife and at least one other person I've discussed it with.

    And those comments keep getting deleted.

    I'll try again.  I'm perfectly willing to admit, in fact I see no weakness or insecurity whatsoever in the observation that a part of Clinton's support comes from women who are supporting her because she's a woman.

    I know that's part of why my mom supports her.

    I know the dreams of women who have been fighting their whole lives are wrapped up in this.

    Now by the same token, could I say the same thing about black people and their support for Obama?

    Not without being called a racist.
    </deleted comment>

    [ Parent ]

    It's pretty complicated though. (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:30:03 PM EST
    Lots and lots of women support Obama instead of Hillary (apparently there is generally a generation gap between those who support Obama and those who support Clinton).  There is nothing wrong with supporting someone who comes from your own underrepresented, oppressed group, from a group that rarely holds the (let's call them) the reins of power.  Latinos supporting a Latino/a would be similar.  

    It all depends upon whether you're making your point about this support respectfully.  Saying "women do the same" or "blacks do the same" can often appear, or be, disrespectful and too general/charged to be informative.

    When we say 'women support Clinton' we should think - what women?  From what groups?  From what economic classes (etc.).  When we say, blacks support Obama, we should think - what blacks?  From what groups?  What classes?  Etc.  If we want to analyze things fairly.

    [ Parent ]

    Well - If you (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by PlayInPeoria on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:31:46 PM EST
    keep it as "demographics", then you can say...

    There may be a tenedency of one demographic group to feel connected to a person of same demographic.

    I wonder if there have been any studies on this?

    [ Parent ]

    I haven't seen your deleted comments but (none / 0) (#21)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:28:49 PM EST
    maybe they were considered off topic? Or maybe you phrased it differently. We have discussed this many times on this blog. I think AA's are extremely proud of Obama and many women feel the same about Clinton. I think that's pretty apparent to everyone.

    I'm not the least bit angry with people who vote according to who they identify with. I'm very angry at the media and many bloggers for their behavior in this campaign.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:35:56 PM EST
    Well they were deleted.  

    Nah. Um. Some of them were off topic.

    One was in an Open Thread, so, maybe I did say it differently then.

    I've just been trying to figure how I'd feel if Geffen said this:


    If Clinton was a man, she would not be in this position. She happens to be very lucky to be who she is. And the country is caught up in the concept.

    I would have to muster a whole hell of lot of energy to express even 1/10000000th of the outrage I see expressed over Ferraro's comments.

    In the end, I'm not sure I'd disagree with the comments.

    Geffen calling the Clinton's liars.  I disagreed with that.  Big time.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with you! (none / 0) (#24)
    by Polkan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:34:04 PM EST
    Isn't it identity politics at its starkest?

    Personally, I see nothing wrong with that when there's no double standard. We have two distinct groups defined by their unique social issues. So it only makes sense that they would identify with some candidates more than others.

    What surprises me, however, is that Clinton has an acknowledged feminist record, in her life and in her actions. I probably need to learn more what Obama's record is in race relations.

    [ Parent ]

    But you can't be like, (none / 0) (#29)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:40:14 PM EST
    a "blackist."  Comparing sexism and racism is a little like apples and oranges.

    [ Parent ]
    Why? (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Polkan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:46:23 PM EST
    Both are hurtful, negative and damaging. Or do you mean to say one can still get away with sexism?

    [ Parent ]
    Lately I'm beginning to think they can (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:50:58 PM EST
    I mean reading the Papers and listening to radio and watching TV

    [ Parent ]
    I don't know what you mean. (none / 0) (#52)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:55:35 PM EST
    I'm trying to say pro-women's issues = feminist.  Pro-black issues does not equal "blackist."  It's hard to stand up for African-American issues in the same way as women's issues, I believe.  I don't know what word would describe a black person standing up for black issues the same way a woman could a woman's.  See what I mean?

    [ Parent ]
    I think I understand (none / 0) (#58)
    by Polkan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:59:27 PM EST
    But what's the implication of this? If I take your thought to its logical conclusion it means that AA voters only have race to rely on, to get that kind of identification. Is that what you mean, I'm not sure...

    [ Parent ]
    I meant my remarks as a response to (none / 0) (#79)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:09:20 PM EST
    this paragraph:

    "What surprises me, however, is that Clinton has an acknowledged feminist record, in her life and in her actions. I probably need to learn more what Obama's record is in race relations. "

    I just think it's easy to align some of Clinton's views as feminist, but that it would be harder to align Obama's views as pro-African American.  (Feminist = pro-choice, etc.)  Standing up for African-American issues and rights is not as easily identifiable as standing up for women's issues and rights (can we think of one issue that would make us say, ah!  a supporter of African-American issues!).  Or so I think.  I can't think of a word that describes that.  Maybe my mind just ain't working.  Is that clearer?  I don't mean to imply anything but that, and I don't understand what you think my implications are.  Are we getting our signals crossed or what?? ;)

    [ Parent ]

    got it now! (none / 0) (#93)
    by Polkan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:15:40 PM EST
    :-)

    so, two thoughts off of that:

    • Obama in fact tried to avoid the perception of "AA candidate"

    • who were the candidates in the past who stood up for AA issues and rights (Al and Jesse I guess)


    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (none / 0) (#108)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:23:17 PM EST
    Obama tried to avoid being the AA candidate when he spent months invoking MLK and harkening back to the '60s civil rights era?  Or standing beside Oprah when she claimed voting for him would bring MLK's dream into reality?  Or when his campaign decided that any mention of his self-described drug use was off limits for reasons of his skin color?

    Plenty of past candidates have stood up for civil rights.  Heard of Hubert Humphrey?  And really - what initiatives has Obama endorsed to further civil rights?  His entire vision of equal opportunity appears to boil down to voting for him.

    [ Parent ]

    Well he only did that in SC, didn't he? (none / 0) (#117)
    by Polkan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:27:52 PM EST
    I want to say that was meant for the specific demographic, not for the general electorate, right?

    [ Parent ]
    Well, imagine if we had a term like (none / 0) (#118)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:28:08 PM EST
    "blackist."  Obama is trying to avoid the perception of being the AA candidate.  If there were a term or body of beliefs defined as "blackist," perhaps we'd be in a better place.  'AA candidate' suggests he only serves a certain constituency, only understands a certain place.  It suggests he's only 'for' a certain group.  

    If we had a term like 'blackist,' it would suggest we were advocating to reduce disparity between races.  The way 'feminist' suggests advocating to reduce disparity between genders.  But we don't.  

    Being an 'AA candidate' and being 'a blackist' would be two different if not mutually exclusive things (as being a feminist and being a 'woman candidate' would be).  I think if we had a category like 'blackist' it would help in our media coverage and ability to view those issues.  Hypothetically.  It could turn out to be a wack disaster.  But right now we're still in a begrudging place regarding racial disparity, if not in total denial.  "So blacks have it worse.  On average.  STATISTICALLY.  So what?"  

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, (none / 0) (#150)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:46:31 PM EST
    did you think I meant blackist as in black supremacist or "reverse discrimination"-ist?  I did not mean it like that at all!  I meant it as an imaginary concept that would envelop the empowerment of African Americans and issues that most disproportionately affect them in society.  

    [ Parent ]
    If you're asking me, I didn't (none / 0) (#170)
    by Polkan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:59:32 PM EST
    I'm still thinking about your concept though. In my mind, you have an "advocate for women's rights" and an "advocate for AA rights", which probably encapsulates what you were talking about. Then we have the following:

    Clinton:

    • candidate for Dem nomination
    • advocate for women's rights
    • woman

    Obama:
    • candidate for Dem nomination
    • AA

    Dan Abrams, btw, just made a direction comparison between AA and feminism as issues, without any problem

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah (none / 0) (#188)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:10:43 PM EST
    your two advocate categories ("advocate for women's rights" and an "advocate for AA rights", ) encapsulate what I'm saying.  

    But some people would say Obama and Clinton are equals in advocating for women's rights.  Their policies ARE the same.  I would say Clinton HAS done a lot of speaking out for women's rights as human rights (speech in China, for instance).  

    When we say women's issues though, we basically know what we're talking about...abortion, health-care, issues re: rape, etc.  When we say AA issues, I think the consensus is less clear, as these issues are often wrapped up in gender and class concerns as well.  I certainly think Obama and Clinton are much better advocates for AAs than McCain!  But Edwards was probably even better, on issues.

    It is reminscent of the flap over whether Obama would attend the State of the Black Union.  Being an advocate for AA issues is a tricky situation esp if you're AA.  But being a feminist and a woman can also be hard, as some stats suggest (as Paul in Correntewire suggests today).  Being percieved as too connected to your own demographic alienates people from other demographics.  In Clinton's case, white men.

    [ Parent ]

    Stanley Fish in the NY Times had a piece where he (none / 0) (#37)
    by pukemoana on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:45:16 PM EST
    said that a person from an under-represented group voting for someone from that same group isn't necessarily voting on just the shared attribute, but potentially on the hope that the shared attribute might lead to greater recognition of issues facing that under-represented group.  but he used more than one sentence . . .

    [ Parent ]
    I'm Not (none / 0) (#27)
    by rose city on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:39:45 PM EST
    supporting HRC simply because she's a woman. But I reckon there is no "proving" this to you. This is something you need to believe, for whatever reason. And I assume the reason is to discount the support in some way. It's disturbing to me that you need to see it this way.

    [ Parent ]
    Everyone reads absolutism into it (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:41:07 PM EST
    I said "part of."

    [ Parent ]
    Im fine with your comment as long as you (none / 0) (#67)
    by Salt on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:03:04 PM EST
    also understand that we support Senator Clinton because we believe she is the stronger candidate, with an excellent resume and it's a plus for some that she is a woman as well.

    [ Parent ]
    We wouldn't be supporting Courtney Love (none / 0) (#71)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:05:56 PM EST
    And I think any sane person would assume that even Ferraro knows that Obama supporters wouldn't be supporting Bobby Brown.

    [ Parent ]
    We should just use the term 'bigotry' (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ellie on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:12:59 PM EST
    It's simply more practical to isolate that particular hostility, hatred and desire to oppress on the basis of -- filling in the attribute of gender, race, creed, LGBT orientation, etc. -- from mere thoughtlessness or boneheaded comments.

    And in passing, I want to know why women, black voters and latino voters have to explain and justify their votes, but the whole system bends to what pleases / flatters white (southern) men or white men generally actually and no one says, "Boo."

    When's the last time you saw white men (and trickling  down from that distinction along the RW attributes) being pestered to explain their voting patterns for like?

    [ Parent ]

    This is excalty the same campaign tatic used (none / 0) (#50)
    by Salt on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:54:14 PM EST
    After NH to tarnish Clintons joy, discussing the specific is a red herring, JF was this weeks Ala. red meat the Gay Marriage Amendment the attack on her a fellow Dem was intended to inflame and drive up turn out and enraged voters she was a pawn.  We've watched this same politic for 8 years now how can it not scream exploitation of a group to fear and hate?  There is not merit or honor in this none.

    [ Parent ]
    The Clinton campaign doesn't believe in (none / 0) (#4)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:11:00 PM EST
    apologies per Eugene Robinson. Really? That's all they've gotten done lately. KO says Obama immediately apologized for the "tears" comment. Is that true? JJ Jr. didn't.

    The only apology I've ever heard (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:11:55 PM EST
    From Obama is the one regarding Samantha Power.

    That's it.


    [ Parent ]

    Just to revise (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:15:13 PM EST
    He apologized about the 'wasted lives' comment.

    And also the 'd-punjab' episode.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't recall Obama saying anything (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:12:20 PM EST
    at all about the "tears" comment, actually.

    [ Parent ]
    Olbermann (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:12:43 PM EST
    Never lies.


    [ Parent ]
    Wow. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:15:50 PM EST
    Obama's press secretary?

    Just watched the Obama BS about "right wing attacks."  Right.  Maybe Harry and Louise live in, I don't know, Florida?

    [ Parent ]

    Given what Obama has engaged in in the past (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:15:45 PM EST
    I can't help but laugh.

    [ Parent ]
    ditto Im with ya (none / 0) (#89)
    by Salt on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:13:19 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    gotten? lol, can't use with have. That's the (none / 0) (#13)
    by Teresa on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:15:46 PM EST
    hillbilly in me comin' out I reckon.

    [ Parent ]
    I used to really like Eugene Robinson... (none / 0) (#34)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:43:49 PM EST
    ... whatever happened to him?

    [ Parent ]
    I don't know (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:11:10 PM EST
    Maybe Geffen was calling all white people liars.


    Likewise McPeak... (none / 0) (#16)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:18:31 PM EST
    ...who claimed Clinton didn't have the gravitas once she cried on television.  And this was, of course, not slam on her gender.  

    What's with Obama's pants... (none / 0) (#17)
    by DudeE on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:19:15 PM EST
    ...which never quite meet his ankle?  Apparently even his tailor borrows from the Kennedy era...

    How about this topic?? (none / 0) (#25)
    by smott on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:34:25 PM EST
    The tanking economy!
    Do we have any good breakdown of their various plans? ARe there any? We know McCain is a self-admitted non-expert on the economy...

    It gives me the willies 'cause anybody remember when we head a Dem Congress and a Dem WH and the economy cratered?

    Yes. Carter....

    According to exit polls... (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:47:59 PM EST
    ... the economy ranked 49th on a list of voter concerns, behind 1) what Geraldine Ferraro ate for breakfast, 2) exactly what kind of monster Hillary Clinton is, and 48) is Hillary's laugh too loud? At least that's what you'd guess from following the national news.

    From what I understand of them, I like Hillary Clinton's plans the best. They seem the most attuned to the actual economic situation we have. Generally, I feel that Obama's three main economic advisers, while highly respected, are too centrist and unwilling to let the government try to intervene. Their opposition to stronger action to curb the housing crisis is not an accident.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually... (none / 0) (#68)
    by smott on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:03:36 PM EST
    I'm from PA, and here per SUSA, the economy is the #1 concern. At least among us Democratic voters.


    [ Parent ]
    Wrong. You must follow your orders (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:34:40 PM EST
    from the media and observe the list above.

    Your issues do not matter.  The media's issues do.

    [ Parent ]

    Stagflation (none / 0) (#30)
    by PlayInPeoria on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:40:24 PM EST
    is the economic term for what we are experiencing.

    Stagflation occurs when the economy isn't growing but prices are, which is not a good situation for a country to be in. This happened to a great extent during the 1970s, when world oil prices rose dramatically, fueling sharp inflation in developed countries. For these countries, including the U.S., stagnation increased the inflationary effects.

    Having lived through this already.... there is no easy way out of this.

    [ Parent ]

    New Topic: American Idol (none / 0) (#32)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:43:23 PM EST
    (yeah, this pertains to voting!)

    Doesn't the kid with the dreadlocks look an awful lot like John Travolta? and he sounds like him too!


    I think he's cute.... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:52:33 PM EST
    ...but yeah, the John Travolta voice, I hadn't thought of that. But I watched last night for the first time this season.

    [ Parent ]