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Obama Camp Claims DOJ Will Need To Review FL Revote Plan

By Big Tent Democrat

If you were in doubt if what posture the Obama campaign was going to take on revoting Michigan and Florida, wonder no more:

Sen. Barack Obama's campaign is raising red flags about the idea of a revote in Florida to solve the mess over the state's delegates to the presidential nominating convention. David Plouffle, campaign manager to Obama, noted that the lead advocate for a mail-in revote is Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida, is a supporter of his opponent Sen. Hillary Clinton. Plouffle said any revote would need to get U.S. Justice Department approval.

Does the DOJ need to approve a revote, presumably under the Voting Rights Act? There seems to be no Constitutional claims that could be made. Bill Nelson's lawsuit might have prospered if there were. If it does, then it is time to take another look at all the contests to see if the DOJ approved them and/or needed to approve them. The Texas contests (see in particular below my discussion of the last minute changes in the caucus system) in particular seemed to be institutionalized voter dilution of Latino votes in South Texas. Was that approved by the DOJ? Did it need to be? Would it be?

But what this really means of course is that Obama will say and do anything to stop the voters of Florida and Michigan from having a representative delegation at the Democratic National Convention. More . . .

I found this:

Certain activities of political parties are subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. A change affecting voting effected by a political party is subject to the preclearance requirement: (a) If the change relates to a public electoral function of the party and (b) if the party is acting under authority explicitly or implicitly granted by a covered jurisdiction or political subunit subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. For example, changes with respect to the recruitment of party members, the conduct of political campaigns, and the drafting of party platforms are not subject to the preclearance requirement.

Changes with respect to the conduct of primary elections at which party nominees, delegates to party conventions, or party officials are chosen are subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. Where appropriate the term "jurisdiction" (but not "covered jurisdiction") includes political parties.

The question becomes this, were ALL THE CHANGES that occurred in this primary season, in caucuses, in state laws, in DNC RULINGS, subject to preclearance?

Did the DNC, for example, have to clear its decision to strip Florida and Michigan of delegates? Did it have to clear its rule that the candidates no campaign in those states?

I am not an election lawyer, but I see a lot of interesting possibilities here.

But lawyers can dream of many things. Here is the best interpretation - this ALTERNATE method of selecting delegates for Florida and Michigan is in CONFORMANCE WITH EXISTING DNC rules. There is no change of procedure at all. This is what the rules contemplate. To take a different tack is to make every DNC ruling subject to pre-clearance.

Update [2008-3-12 13:0:20 by Big Tent Democrat]: I found this at the Texas Depart of State site:

Thursday, December 20, 2007 (75th day before primary election day) Last recommended day for a county chair to submit changes affecting voting to U.S. Department of Justice for preclearance. The federal Voting Rights Act of 1965 requires that any change in any "standard, practice, or procedure with respect to voting" be submitted to the U.S. Department of Justice for preclearance. Changes in election precincts, polling places, and various other actions require preclearance. Under Section 5, any change in a voting practice or procedure is legally unenforceable until the U.S. Attorney General (or a federal court in the District of Columbia) determines that the change does not have the purpose, or will not have the effect, of discriminating against racial or language minority group members.

The Attorney General of the U.S. Department of Justice has 60 days in which to interpose an objection to a submitted change affecting voting. Therefore, if the county executive committee has not already reviewed actions since the last primary elections to see if any changes must be submitted for preclearance, this should be done as soon as possible. If changes need to be made at the last minute, the Justice Department may be able to give the submission expedited consideration.

The Texas caucus rules were still being haggled over days before the caucus. Houston, I think we have a problem . . .

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  • Display: Sort:
    You think a caucus would get (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:13:59 AM EST
    pre clearance? Me neither. Great, let's annul all of the caucuses. How does that sound Mr. Plouffle?

    Florida (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by 1jane on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:46:19 AM EST
    Democrats representing Florida in Congress released this joint statement today.

    We are committed to working with the DNC, the Florida State Democratic party, our Democratic leaders in Florida, and our two candidates to reach an expedited solution that ensures our 210 delegates are seated. Our House delegation is opposed to a mail-in campaign or any redo of any kind.

    Prediction: a 50-50 split of delegates.

    [ Parent ]

    50-50 split makes no sense at all. (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:47:52 AM EST
    Why not split it 90-10 in Hillary's favor? That would make more sense to me.

    [ Parent ]
    prediction-obama will lose general election (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:49:11 AM EST
    due to poor campaigning and not caring about voting rights. anyone who thinks that 50% is fair needs to rethink their position. that is not democracy or anything near it. what it is in my opinion is trying to steal votes.

    [ Parent ]
    Funny prediction (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:51:26 AM EST
    given that the Florida delegation is demanding to be seated as is. But at least we are all on notice now as to what the latest Obamamemo is on this matter.

    [ Parent ]
    Because a 50/50 (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:51:37 AM EST
    split makes so much sense.

    [ Parent ]
    A 50-50 split (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by spit on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:54:23 AM EST
    is an even worse solution IMO than just not seating them at all. Talk about questionable legitimacy to the results. At least not seating them doesn't involve making them actually represent something in a way not supported by their vote.

    [ Parent ]
    It' s like going out to lunch and ordering (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:00:00 PM EST
    a salad, while your companion has the oysters on the half shell, the soup of the day, the market-price lobster, dessert and a half bottle of wine and when the check comes, thinks splitting the check 50-50 is just so much less complicated than each person paying for what they actually consumed...

    [ Parent ]
    And the wine (none / 0) (#146)
    by Paladin on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:32:45 PM EST
    Would be a $200 bottle.  Sounds fair to me!

    [ Parent ]
    DOJ (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:58:59 AM EST
    would  never   approve   50-50.  

    Obama  has  been hoist  on his own petard.

    [ Parent ]

    i hope so. arrogance just irritates me. (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:02:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    50 / 50 (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by cal1942 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:03:40 PM EST
    is the same as not seating them at all.  

    [ Parent ]
    No, it's not the same. (none / 0) (#184)
    by K Lynne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:35:18 PM EST
    As I posted elsewhere on the thread, a 50/50 split gives an advantage to Obama over and above the obvious difference between the actual results and the 50/50 split.

    If the primary were a simple case of 'the person with the most delegates wins', that would be the case.  However, there is the added factor of the 'magic number', at which that person wins the nomination uncontested.

    Now, I haven't taken a close look at the number of delegates remaining vs. the number of Superdelegates, etc - but simply giving both HRC and BO 50% if the delegates puts them both that much closer to the 'magic number' - and if BO is closer to start with, that means he needs 50 fewer Supers to secure the nomination.

    [ Parent ]

    MLK might weep at this candidate (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:23:28 PM EST
    being the one to abuse the Voting Rights Act. Wonder what John Lewis thinks of this. . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Nope (none / 0) (#83)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:52:22 AM EST
    The credential committee is divided in to 3 camps.  Obama, Clinton and Dean.  No one can get a majority.  Obama has enough to block Clinton from seating them as is, Clinton has enough to block Obama/Dean from a 50/50 split.

    [ Parent ]
    Furthermore (none / 0) (#140)
    by ineedalife on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:18:55 PM EST
    I could be wrong but can't a minority bloc force a floor fight? I thought you needed a super-majority (>80) to force anything through.  So nothing can be done without a consensus if the route is through the convention committees.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep (none / 0) (#160)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    Yes. Obama, even with the support of Dean's contingent, can be blocked by Clinton.  

    It's my understanding that the credentials committee deals with seating the stripped delegates.  Obama wants to split 50/50.  Clinton says no.  Clinton them seated as is.  Obama says no.  Neither can get enough votes to override the other.

    I think the only option to get delegates seated is a re-vote.  Clinton can get a majority on the 28 panel Rules committee which decides which type of re-vote is approved.  He wants a caucus.  I don't think he can get it.  Clinton wants a full primary.  I think she can get it by the rules committee, but I don't think she will get it.

    [ Parent ]

    as I said (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:16:53 AM EST
    delay delay delay
    that is the plan.  run out the clock till its to late.

    You know what that takes off the table? (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:18:11 AM EST
    "Hillary is trying to steal the election with Super Delegates."

    Unless the Obama rules continue to hold. . .

    [ Parent ]

    big "unless" (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:18:54 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Now, apparently. . . (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:23:15 AM EST
    she's trying to steal it with voters.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama is just echoing ... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:31:27 AM EST
    the old school yard chant:  "No keepsies, no do-overs!"  

    Well, isn't he?

    Of course, this makes sense since his "strongest experience" in foreign policy involves his time spent in an Indonesian grammar school.

    [ Parent ]

    hard to imagine (none / 0) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:27:01 AM EST
    how the argument will be made that the voters are trying to steal the election from Obama.  but we both know it will be made.
    I have seen posts elsewhere that basically say flat out that no matter how Clinton wins she will have stolen the election.


    [ Parent ]
    I think what ticks me off, though, (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:32:42 AM EST
    is that the only clock Obama seems to be concerned about is the one running on his nomination, and that he fails to see - short-sightedness being something of a signature trait, in my opinion - the backlash that is likely to come that could have us all needing serious meds to deal with President McCain.

    I know politicians have to have solid egos - there's no way they could do this without one - but the Obama campaign is increasingly looking like a massively vain undertaking, with little realization that the contest does not end when he gets the nomination.

    The call for DOJ approval, in light of what has been happening there, should have us all running for the exits.

    [ Parent ]

    The Audacity of Hope (5.00 / 5) (#95)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:56:05 AM EST
    becomes the Audacity of Nope.

    [ Parent ]
    I thought the Supreme Court ... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:17:31 AM EST
    had been fairly clear on this matter.  Political parties can essentially do whatever they want.  They're not subject to equal protection arguments.

    Of course the MSM will play this as honorable and courageous on Obama's part.  If Clinton did it the word "whining" would be used.

    This is a Voting Rights Act issue (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:36:25 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    BTD (none / 0) (#69)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:47:26 AM EST
    Voting  Rights   Act   "issue"  includes  the  state  of Texas.  

    Do-over  must   therefore  be  required  there, too.

    [ Parent ]

    ok then let's redo texas. (none / 0) (#75)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:50:26 AM EST
    let kick s carolina around too. how about a 50% split there also.

    [ Parent ]
    Is it true the caucus results from TX (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:52:18 AM EST
    are going to be voided? I understand that the counting has not moved forward at all from the 41% mark.

    [ Parent ]
    MYDD (none / 0) (#88)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:53:37 AM EST
    There is a write up of some issues on MYDD.  It's not looking so hot right now.

    [ Parent ]
    meaning the caucus might be voided? (none / 0) (#91)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:54:41 AM EST
    that would be great news, as far as I am concerned.

    [ Parent ]
    i meant that as snark, but who knows! (none / 0) (#99)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:57:40 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Right but I thought ... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:26:11 PM EST
    the Supreme Court had spoken on this.  Voting rights provisions don't necessarily apply to party nominating contests.  Hence, the legality of caucuses which wouldn't pass a straight voting rights test.

    [ Parent ]
    That's how I read it, too. (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Primary   voting  are  the  venue of  the political  parties,  period.  It's  why  Nelson's  lawsuit  against   Dean's original  decision  was  thrown out.  

    Obama  camp  probably knows  that they wouldn't  win,  but  that's not  their motivation.  

    Their  purpose  is  delay,   until  the  time limit  is reached.  

    Unless, of  course,   Clinton  camp  agrees  to  a  50-50  split,  and  then they  won't  complain.    

    Go  figure.    

    [ Parent ]

    It's why the Nevada teachers' suit (none / 0) (#181)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:28:17 PM EST
    was tossed, too. So let's reopen that issue there -- where teachers, custodians, etc., had to work caucus site schools so could not get to their own caucuses. Remember, that effectively barred many in the AFT, the teachers union that endorsed Clinton, from participating. The court there tossed the case, saying it had no oversight because primaries are the purview of parties.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you, BTD. (5.00 / 6) (#6)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:18:37 AM EST
    For  whatever else,  I think your  newest  thread  shows   that it  is  Obama  who  will say  or  do  anything  to  get  elected,   no  matter  what it  costs  the party  as  a  whole.  

    I  see   diminishing  returns  in the  Obama  "magic."    

    And   he's  done  it  to himself.    

    x (none / 0) (#189)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:46:01 PM EST
    Yes, I think it's time Clinton started using this as a campaign issue. It shows a side of Obama that is not very pretty.


    [ Parent ]
    Will Ted Olson represent Obama? (5.00 / 8) (#9)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:19:16 AM EST


    John Bolton (none / 0) (#76)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:50:26 AM EST
    will storm the office where the mail-in ballots are being prepared

    [ Parent ]
    DNC (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:23:08 AM EST
    Why is threatening legal action?. It is up to the credentials committee and the Bylaws and Rules committee.  What is he doing.

    He's doing this because the rules committee favors Clinton.  Of the 28 members, 12 already support Clinton, 7 support Obama.  Several others support Clinton they just haven't made official endorsements.  She may not have a majority on the credentialing committee as the Dean contingency sides with the Obama committee, but neithe can get a majority decision from the credentials committee, but CLINTON has the majority on the Rules committee which rules on whether or not a plan is accepted.  He will never get a caucus.  If Florida wants a primary, it looks like she could get it.

    I just answered my own question.  sigh

    Yes (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:35:47 AM EST
    This is a DNC matter, not a DOJ matter.

    [ Parent ]
    Universal Right (none / 0) (#41)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:37:08 AM EST
    Universal Right to Vote Act?

    [ Parent ]
    Who is threatening legal action? (none / 0) (#100)
    by tbetz on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:58:23 AM EST
    I don't see a threat in anything Plouffe has said.
    Ana Marie Cox does report that the Justice Department observation did come up in call, so it's not just one blogger reporting it.

    However, I do agree that Obama's campaign staff should shut their pieholes about even hinting at blocking a re-vote, and even if they would like to do so, they should let the Clinton supporters in the Florida congressional delegation do that work for them.

    [ Parent ]

    Gosh (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:27:28 AM EST
    I thought they were willing to go along with whatever the DNC decides?

    Now they will only go along with whatever the DNC and the DOJ decides. Anything to not have to go along with what the VOTERS decide.

    I hope those big money donors (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:38:58 AM EST
    he visited last year in Fl take this into consideration when he comes back for money.

    Okay, more Kathy Kwestions (tm) (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Kathy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:44:44 AM EST
    1.  Do we know what Obama's cash on hand is right now?  Have all his small donors been tapped out?

    2.  How is it going to play for the candidate who is "above all this politicking" to be calling in the DOJ or bringing in the lawyers?  Excellent article in (I think) the NY Times the other day about how Obama loses when he looks like a politician.

    3.  What are the networks going to say?  I see that Oberman is going to spend his time tonight scolding Clinton.  Wonder why he's not going to scold Obama for stopping a democratic vote?

    4.  Has Dean commented on any of this?

    5.  How does the statement from Obama-man Alcee Hastings from last night (claiming the congressional districts don't support a revote) impact this?


    You must be confused (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by dianem on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:45:14 AM EST
    Clinton is the candidate who will say and do anything to win the election. Obama is above all that. I know, because I've heard him say so numerous times.

    He just wants to avoid any flimflamming (none / 0) (#115)
    by Practically Lactating on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:03:51 PM EST
    in Florida.

    [ Parent ]
    excuse me! is that i joke? i hope so. (none / 0) (#127)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:10:44 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Totally a joke (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Practically Lactating on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:13:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    thanks! (none / 0) (#153)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:48:54 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Alternate title for my post (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:46:57 AM EST
    Obama Lawyers Up Against FL and MI

    Could this create a backlash big enough to... (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:51:37 AM EST
    jeopardize "the Math" for Obama?  I think it can and have made my case in a post below.

    Obama just needs to make sure Clinton doesn't blow him out in any of the remaining big states so she cannot make up enough of the deficit in pledged delegates.  He is now creating an opening, albeit the tiniest of slivers than can result in a disaster for him if and when the Michigan and Florida voters do get to re-vote.

    This alone may not be enough to provoke his own collapse in those states, but coupled with the continued race-related allegations and distortions (like going back to blame Clinton for that Drudge photo after he had said he took her word for it) can create a perfect storm.

    Watch out, I think I am going to be right on this one.

    [ Parent ]

    YES on the huge backlash. (none / 0) (#159)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:01:49 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Or this one: (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:56:25 AM EST
    Serious  Bamboozling  Begins

    "Okie-doke,"   says  the  DNC.  

    [ Parent ]

    How about (none / 0) (#171)
    by phat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:42:01 PM EST
    Obama to FL, MI

    Drop dead.

    [ Parent ]

    Excellent historical allusion -- (none / 0) (#182)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:31:01 PM EST
    I enjoyed that. I can envision that old front page even now. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    The risk for Obama: THE MATH (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:47:09 AM EST
    The thought just occured to me that Barack Obama's attempts to block and stonewall on the re-vote issue can be the one surefire way for him to blow "the Math" and his own chances for the nomination.

    His refusal to recognize the importance of counting the votes in these two major states where millions of Democrats voted, could end up being a COLLOSAL MISTAKE if and when the process moves forward to have the voting take place anyway.

    If by then he manages to alienate enough voters, MAYBE, just maybe Hillary Clinton can achieve an unexpected blowout by a large enough margin that allows her to catch up in pledged delegates by the time Puerto Rico is done voting later in June.

    If he would just cut his losses right now and move to have the voting before there is too much resentment against him, he would never lose the pledged delegate lead.  But instead, they are going down a very dangerous path.

    This is the only realistic way that has emerged for Obama to "blow it" when it comes to pledged delegates.

    He is about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    kos himself (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Demi Moaned on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:52:47 AM EST
    And here's kos himself crowing over the obstructionism of the FL Democratic Congressmen and treating it as decisive:
    No redo in Florida.
    ...
    Here's how you seat them -- you cut them in half for breaking the rules, like the GOP did, and then you assign them 50/50 each to Obama and Clinton. Presto! Issue solved.

    So much for more party-building!

    This is just his supporters (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:56:54 AM EST
    Setting this up in such a way where when the revote happens it'll appear like Obama's doing us all a favor.


    [ Parent ]
    Do you still visit over there? (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:09:53 PM EST
    I've never GBCW because I just didn't even care enough to say goodbye.

    [ Parent ]
    Closing the Gate with a Crash (none / 0) (#183)
    by Cream City on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:32:59 PM EST
    on FL and MI -- the title of the Kos sequel.

    [ Parent ]
    Well Markos is consistent at least (ugh, ugh, ugh) (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:01:33 PM EST
    We are in a great deal of trouble if that blog is in anyway a kingmaker in our Democratic process.


    [ Parent ]
    Not necessarily (none / 0) (#148)
    by AF on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:33:33 PM EST
    An effectively run revote will be legitimate and shouldn't create a great deal of trouble.

    [ Parent ]
    My post is about the blog (none / 0) (#151)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:38:44 PM EST
    and the owner of that blog is not advocating what you just mentioned in your post.

    50/50 sham is what he likes.  Legitimate and effectively run revote is a different matter for us to agree on.

    [ Parent ]

    Concern troll (none / 0) (#188)
    by Demi Moaned on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:44:06 PM EST
    The man himself condescended to label me a concern troll for this.

    [ Parent ]
    Gotta love those 28 people that leapt for him (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:53:14 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    A seat does not mean a voice (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:08:01 PM EST
    Kos's plan gives the delegates an actual physical chair at the convention, and nothing else.  I hope they boycott if this ends up being the "solution"

    [ Parent ]
    It's funny because (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:17:47 PM EST
    I'm pretty sure it was Kos himself who first told me in one of his posts that this entire issue would be moot because we would have a winner by now who would graciously allow the FL & MI delegations to be seated.

    [ Parent ]
    Kos' glee (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by Demi Moaned on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:18:44 PM EST
    He was also an early and loud voice saying that we needed to seat delegations from both states for all the reasons we are familiar with. I am genuinely shocked that he would not only make a proposal so divorced from legitimacy, but actually be gleeful about it.

    I know many people have been disillusioned about DailyKos for quite some time, but this is a turning point for me.

    [ Parent ]

    kos? well it speaks for itself! (none / 0) (#97)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:56:54 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    the dnc called looking for money this (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:59:08 AM EST
    morning. i told them to seat floria and then we'd talk. after that i hung up on them.

    Thank you (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:01:18 PM EST
    I wrote to them a month ago and asked them to do the same thing.

    They asked me for money and ignored my concerns.


    [ Parent ]

    It's just about time (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by frankly0 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:00:53 PM EST
    for the Clinton campaign to call out Obama for his stalling tactics.

    What the Clinton campaign needs to do is make a clear, emphatic statement in favor of re-dos, with using the original primaries only as a back-up, coming from Hillary's own mouth.

    Having done that, Hillary can attack Obama, candidate to candidate, on this issue, and do so relentlessly. Obama will never have a good answer because there is no good answer. And the fallout from his opposition to basic democracy will be enormous.

    Speaking for me only (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:03:42 PM EST
    I think the Clinton campaign has a tendency to be too diplomatic at times.  It is a consequence of all those years being shellshocked by the right wing and the media, I think.

    But sometimes you've got to make clear, declarative and unafraid statements that speak to the truth of the matter.  If this kind of thing continues from the Obama campaign I would welcome more bluntness from them.

    [ Parent ]

    I think that (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by frankly0 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:13:14 PM EST
    the Clinton campaign is gradually leading up to the attack on Obama on this point. It's setting down a series of markers, including the just issued letter to the Obama campaign, pressing the issue. Each further obfuscation or delay then will become part of a large, very effective case against Obama. There's enough time left that this can be done effectively -- but I certainly wouldn't wait terribly long before raising it to the highest level.

    Even if Obama were to manage to sabotage the re-do in FL and MI, he would

    1. completely undercut his claim that the FL and MI primaries shouldn't be used as a basis for seating delegates since they would be not fully democratic -- he would have taken a far more anti-democratic approach himself
    2. create an extremely powerful argument for Hillary in all remaining elections, turning many potential Obama supporters against him.


    [ Parent ]
    That seems to be the Clinton style (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:26:15 PM EST
    more methodical, but reliably effective.  They seem especially adept at building the crescendo of a narrative at just the right time when their backs are up against the wall.  I just wish they'd frontload a little more and put the pressure on earlier.  Always seeing the person you support having to come from behind in miraculous fashion is taxing to say the least.

    [ Parent ]
    The HRC campaign (none / 0) (#164)
    by magisterludi on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:13:40 PM EST
    is no doubt taking notes. Right now, Obama is doing their work for them. Might as well play it out for a, hopefully, short while longer.

    [ Parent ]
    50/50 is the biggest joke of a solution ever (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by diplomatic on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:06:56 PM EST
    It is beyond a non-starter. It makes a Caucus seem like a great and Democratic resolution by comparison, which is perhaps the entire motivation behind floating it.

    Move the goal posts so drastically to one side that you end up getting what you want after the haggling is done.  Sorry, the Clinton family is just a tad too smart and have been around the block long enough not to fall for that.

    Such a political blunder- afraid of Edwards? (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:16:31 PM EST
    This is a political mistake in so many ways.  If Obama said right now, like Clinton did, that he would tell his people on the credentials and rules committees to seat the FL and MI delegates as they stand from the January primaries (as he WILL do at the convention if there is no revote and it is clear he will be the nominee) he would get huge political kudos for being brave enough to take the risk, being a uniter, etc.  And it would shut Clinton up on this issue. Even I am convinced that his Math, even if you count FL and MI right now, is invincible.  He would still have a 100+ lead in pledged delegates.  

    That he does not do that tells me he is not nearly as confident of his Math as he pretends to be.  Admitting that weakness is a political mistake in itself.  But why is so worried about it?  I believe he has reason to believe Edwards will endorse Clinton before the NC primary, and she will get the Edwards delegates as well.  That is the only conceivable reason I see for him being so seemingly stupid right now.

    That 5 is because I want you to be RIGHT. (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by MMW on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:23:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    it's about the voters... (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:17:19 PM EST
    and nothing else, imho:

    • seating delegates as is is unfair (not because it's unfair to Obama but because it's potentially unfair to voters who didn't vote). But, yes, it's also unfair to Obama.

    • 50/50 split is unfair (not because it's unfair to Clinton but, again, because it's unfair to voters). But, yes, it would also be unfair to Clinton.

    The only fair thing to do at this point is a primary re-vote. It is outrageous that people keep discussing this in terms of what advantages/disadvantages accrue to which campaign. This is the U.S. and this is an election - we must look like a laughingstock at this point.

    Let the people vote!

    A laughing stock (none / 0) (#141)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:19:24 PM EST
    at this point? I think that point was reached back in 2000 as far as voting is concerned.

    [ Parent ]
    Am I missing something? (none / 0) (#172)
    by K Lynne on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:42:59 PM EST
    Not only is the 50/50 split unfair to Hillary because it is contrary to the actual vote split in the election, it actually gives Obama an advantage (over not seating the delegates at all) because it gets him closer to the 'magic number' - basically enabling him to secure the nomination with fewer Supers.  

    My first thought was that the 50/50 split would be mathematically equivalent to not seating the delegates at all, but that is only if there isn't the magic number at which the nomination is clinched.  

    I'm sure Hillary gets this and is preparing a HUGE media blitz when the time is right...

    [ Parent ]

    I believe (none / 0) (#185)
    by spit on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:38:00 PM EST
    that seating FL would also change the "magic number", which right now doesn't include delegates from FL or MI as part of the needed total.

    If that's not the case, you'd be correct. But I believe it is, which means 50-50 is just like not seating them -- thereby utterly missing the point that the complaint isn't about some Fl party insiders getting to party in Denver, but about people's votes counting.

    [ Parent ]

    Judgement call? (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by D Jessup on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:35:52 PM EST
    Since Obama is in the lead for the Democratic nomination and the nominee is the leader of the party, FL and MI would be his first major judgment call.  I guess if this judgment call goes his way and they are not counted or seated, and he wins because of that, he can tell FL and MI that he was against seating them since the beginning.  Come on Obama show some leadership somewhere.

    Obama rode the golden child wave to this? (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:56:47 PM EST
    This is going to be become the bad child wave very quickly.  I'm not happy. I want this race to be about issues and distilling our candidate but it looks like I must settle for campaign antics and poodles leaping through hoops aflame all the way around.  Whaaaaaaaaa!

    Wow. (none / 0) (#2)
    by rooge04 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:15:16 AM EST
    They're really really really trying to make those votes not count, huh?

    Sounds like (none / 0) (#8)
    by 0 politico on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:19:02 AM EST
    an attempt to roadblock any revotes in these states by bringing the DOJ into this.  I don't know if they (the DOJ) have a real play in this, but it would be time consuming if DOJ gets involved.  Perhaps enough time to ensure a revote cannot take place.

    Wasn't another part of Plouffle's comments that any reseating of FL and MI delegates should not be based on the prior (implies any) vote tallies, but simply a 50-50 split.

    Hmmm?  Any solution that insures his candidate maintains his delegat lead, regardless of the wishes of the voters in FL and MI seems to work for Plouffle.  Or, am I reading this wrong?

    I don't think you are reading it wrong (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by tree on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:36:48 AM EST
    A mail-in revote needs DOJ approval. Ignoring the votes of Florida and Michigan needs no approval. Whatever gives Obama the lead is fine, anything else is questionable. That's about the gist of the argument.

    [ Parent ]
    Absentee (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:55:51 AM EST
    Florida already has an established absentee voting process.  How is having a mail-in different from an absentee?  Potaato, Potawto... they are the same thing.  Mail them out, fill them out, mail them in.

    [ Parent ]
    Not sure (none / 0) (#161)
    by auntmo on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:07:16 PM EST
    a   mail-in  revote   needs  a  DOJ  approval.  

    Nelson's  lawsuit   against  Dean's   decision  was  thrown out  by  the  courts    saying  the primaries  were  the  responsibility  of  the  political parties,  and not  the  courts.  

    This   is  just  a  stall   tactic  by  Obama  campaign.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, we need more politicization (none / 0) (#87)
    by Practically Lactating on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:53:37 AM EST
    of the DOJ, not less. Obama Rules.

    [ Parent ]
    Is he really in such a strong position (none / 0) (#10)
    by katiebird on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:19:38 AM EST
    that he can do this without risk to the legitimacy of his campaign?

    It's unreasonable to think that some FL & MI delegates won't be seated at the convention.  How does he expect to get them there?

    Also, it seems to me that winning MI or FL would give him a much clearer path to the nomination.  How can he do that by blocking or dragging his heels on every revote plan?

    Well, what I (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by rooge04 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:21:31 AM EST
    think is that his ardent supporters will justify no re-vote by claiming 'the rules' again. And they don't want those votes counted. If CLinton wins the nom, they will claim it is stolen no matter what the situation.

    As for the GE, goodbye 2 critical states.

    [ Parent ]

    goodbye democratic presidency. (none / 0) (#118)
    by hellothere on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:04:44 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Whatever happens, Obama is going to (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:22:11 AM EST
    challenge any attempt to seat the FL and MI delegates. If there is a re-vote, his campaign will claim it is invalid, because the DOJ did not approve it, or some other such nonsense.


    [ Parent ]
    exactly what I think (none / 0) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:22:56 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The inmates at Orange Republic (5.00 / 7) (#17)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:24:24 AM EST
    must be furious that Clinton is trying to thwart Democracy by counting votes.

    [ Parent ]
    he now has an army (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:22:33 AM EST
    of flyine monkeys who will, it seems, argue anything he does is legit.

    [ Parent ]
    The campaign responses (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by spit on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:26:49 AM EST
    indicate to me that they have some pretty bad data out of FL and MI. They'd probably lose FL by about the same proportion, but I have much less of a grasp on MI. If they lost both, and PA, by biggish margins, that's a scenario that could really hurt Obama's chances, so it makes sense from a political point of view.

    But I didn't think they'd go so far as they're going trying to avoid it. They're floating every balloon to try to get around a revote they can manage. Frankly, IMO, they're many days late, and have already lost that argument -- there will almost certainly be a revote, and they're just making themselves look bad with this stuff. Their best hope now, as far as I can tell, is jockeying for the fairest revotes that can be had and getting to work building campaign in MI and FL, to minimize Clinton's popular vote gains there.

    I really don't understand their current positioning on this.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (none / 0) (#18)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:25:28 AM EST
    I found some information on this.  Florida, like Texas, is one of the states which has to obtain preclearance of changes in voting procedures from the DOJ.  28 CFR 51.7 provides:

    Certain activities of political parties are subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. A change affecting voting effected by a political party is subject to the preclearance requirement: (a) If the change relates to a public electoral function of the party and (b) if the party is acting under authority explicitly or implicitly granted by a covered jurisdiction or political subunit subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. For example, changes with respect to the recruitment of party members, the conduct of political campaigns, and the drafting of party platforms are not subject to the preclearance requirement. Changes with respect to the conduct of primary elections at which party nominees, delegates to party conventions, or party officials are chosen are subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5. Where appropriate the term "jurisdiction" (but not "covered jurisdiction") includes political parties.

    Just in case there is any doubt, section 51.12 provides (in remarkably plain English):

    Any change affecting voting, even though it appears to be minor or indirect, returns to a prior practice or procedure, ostensibly expands voting rights, or is designed to remove the elements that caused objection by the Attorney General to a prior submitted change, must meet the Section 5 preclearance requirement.

    "Preclearance" essentially means you have to make a formal submission to the DOJ and give them 60 days to object if they find the change would be discriminatory in purpose or effect.

    This is all from seat-of-the-pants research so I could be missing any number of things.

    So to be clear (none / 0) (#19)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:26:11 AM EST
    this is a requirement that kicks in whether or not the Obama campaign objects.

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:35:23 AM EST
    I do not believe it kicks in at all.

    The existing DNC rules allow for the choosing of an alternative delegate selection process. there has been no rule change.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly (none / 0) (#89)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:53:53 AM EST
    This is a matter of DNC rules and nothing else, as courts already ruled when Nelson challenged the barring of the FL primary.   Obama is just trying to throw up false challenges and roadblocks.  Nothing could be clearer.

    [ Parent ]
    Is this a relict of strictures from (none / 0) (#22)
    by MarkL on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:27:13 AM EST
    Civil Rights Acts violations?

    [ Parent ]
    That's my understanding (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Steve M on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:32:59 AM EST
    it actually applies only to five counties in Florida, I guess, but obviously this would be a statewide re-vote so it makes no difference.

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree with you (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:34:22 AM EST
    that this is a change in Party rules.

    The best interpretation is that the DNC is applying its existing rules.

    [ Parent ]

    so (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:35:03 AM EST
    so we have time to make it all happen?

    [ Parent ]
    The clock is the DNC June 10 clock (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:37:25 AM EST
    The DOJ is irrelevant UNLESS someone wants to sue.

    [ Parent ]
    UNLESS (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:38:05 AM EST
    uh oh

    [ Parent ]
    60 days (none / 0) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:29:00 AM EST
    does that give us enough time?
    thanks for the research btw


    [ Parent ]
    So under THIS obligation (none / 0) (#25)
    by katiebird on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:29:38 AM EST
    is there time for a revote?  Or have we already missed the chance?

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree with Steve's interpretation (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:33:36 AM EST
    There is no rule change. This is in conformance with the DNC's OWN RULES.

    [ Parent ]