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More On the 3 AM Ad

By Big Tent Democrat

Kevin Drum and Matt Yglesias get it. Kevin writes:

Why is it somehow OK for John McCain to run on the basis of being the guy who can protect America while Hillary shouldn't? Why are we often so eager to practically concede to Republicans exactly the stereotypes they want voters to believe about us? Seems to me that Democrats ought to get used to the idea of competing on this dimension regardless of whether ads like this are precisely the right way to do it.

The funny thing is Obama did not shy away or shriek in fear of this ad. He responded forcefully. All the fearful shrieking came from some Left blogs. Pretty funny really.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Exactly (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by NJDem on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:35:11 AM EST
    it's because Clinton did it.  The ad as been played a million times on the MSM, but nary a word about the Harry and Louise flyer, even after HRC called him out on it at the press conference.

    That 3am call not only a relevant today, as we are involved in wars on 2 fronts, but that call can also relate to another natural disaster or assassination of a foreign leader--ala Katrina, Bhutto, etc.

    Incidentally, during the tragic aftermath of Katrina all I kept thinking was how different the response wold have been if BC was in office--how many people wouldn't have died that horrible week...

    IF the ad has been played a million times (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:48:11 AM EST
    for free, Clinton must be ecstatic.

    [ Parent ]
    I asked my husband if he'd seen it (none / 0) (#11)
    by katiebird on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:52:15 AM EST
    When I got home yesterday (he's at home care-giving for his mother) and he said, "Are you kidding? The news channels have been playing it all day..."

    Still, a million times is probably an exaggeration.

    [ Parent ]

    I bet not anymore (none / 0) (#16)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:00:07 AM EST
    The ad is being laughed at in the blogosphere because the attempted insinuation is laughably transparent and not believable.

    Plus, it gave Obama a chance for a free rebuttal on the judgment line, which is a debate that helps him.

    What concrete things has Clinton done that would lead anyone to think she'd be better at answering the Red Phone in a national crisis?

    [ Parent ]

    Laughed at in the blogosphere (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:22:54 AM EST
    when it comes to Hillary is a meaningless metric.

    [ Parent ]
    forcefully? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by p lukasiak on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:38:33 AM EST
    I think he responded 'calmly'.

    And I found his response more than a little lacking.  I mean, if there is such a thing as a "red phone moment", it wasn't the decision to vote for the AUMF, or Bush's decision to go to war.  

    and I gotta say that what Obama opposed (a unilateral invasion of Iraq without broad international support) and what Hillary voted for -- a resolution designed to disarm Saddam of what, at the time, everyone thought was his WMD capabilities.  And unless you were like me, and suffered from BDS at the time, Clinton's vote was not evidence of bad judgement.

    I mean, when Obama actually was running for the US Senate in 2003 (after the successful invasion, when there was little evidence to confirm his predictions of a disasterous occupation , he said he wasn't sure how he would have voted on AUMF, but said he would have probably voted against it on "technical" grounds.  (in other words, he shifted from being a staunchly anti-war candidate to a 'constitutional law lecturer' candidate.)

    Let's just say the IWR was not her finest moment (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by goldberry on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:23:30 AM EST
    And I am a Clintonista.  But Obama's response also left me cold.  If I were Clinton, I'd be saying, "Your judgement on the IWR?  That's it?! That's all you got to run a campaign on?  Hey, I've got constituents to protect, constituents who got hit BADLY during 9/11.  Yeah, I trusted Bush not to be a bonehead and screw things up.  That's where my judgment failed.  When I'm calling the shots, you can be sure I'm not going to ignore advice.  Go back to school, Barry.  There's more to running the government than bombing Pakistan."
    Er, but that's just me.

    [ Parent ]
    In in 2003 campaign? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:46:43 AM EST
    You have a link? I know he did in 2004, with the I think reasonable explanation that he did not want to rip John Kerry.

    In 2003, that would be more troubling.

    [ Parent ]

    can;t find the link, but this is consistent (none / 0) (#22)
    by p lukasiak on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:09:40 AM EST
    but from 2004... (maybe I'm mistaken then...but I could swear I saw something from 2003 that was similar to what is below)

    ''But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,'' Mr. Obama said. ''What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.''

    But Mr. Obama said he did fault Democratic leaders for failing to ask enough tough questions of the Bush administration to force it to prove its case for war. ''What I don't think was appropriate was the degree to which Congress gave the president a pass on this,'' he said.



    [ Parent ]
    And let's just forget (none / 0) (#27)
    by flyerhawk on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:14:25 AM EST
    the fact that Barack Obama was campaigning for John Kerry in 2004 and that John Kerry also voted for the AUMF.

    [ Parent ]
    At lest I am not forgetting it (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:22:25 AM EST
    That is why I think a 2003 statement to that effect is more troubling. Don't you agree?

    I am asking for a link to a 2003 statement.

    [ Parent ]

    2004? Ring a bell with anyone? (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by tree on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:43:11 AM EST
    It seems to me that few forget that Obama was campaigning for Kerry in 2004 when he waffled on whether he would have voted for AUMF if he had been in the Senate then. What I want to know is why does everyone seem to forget that OBAMA was also running for the US Senate in 2004 when he waffled?

     He spoke out about it in October 2002 when he was running as an unopposed incumbent state Senator, but when he himself was running for the US Senate in 2004, he backed down and hedged his bets.  Not exactly a profile in courage.  

    [ Parent ]

    why does he (none / 0) (#59)
    by tree on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:45:48 AM EST
    get a pass on that? Anyone?

    [ Parent ]
    Sure (none / 0) (#60)
    by flyerhawk on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:46:26 AM EST
    he was indeed running for Senate.  However I fail to see how waffling on Iraq would have helped him in Illinois in 2004.  Please explain.

    [ Parent ]
    and I'm saying... (none / 0) (#50)
    by p lukasiak on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:40:39 AM EST
    and I'm saying I can't find what I remember reading.  So I'll happily withdraw the statement! ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    No problem Paul (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:42:18 AM EST
    I know your integrity.

    I was just curious if there was a 2003 statement.

    [ Parent ]

    absolutely (none / 0) (#62)
    by flyerhawk on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:47:31 AM EST
    I completely agree with you, BTD.  

    See, it can happen. :)

    [ Parent ]

    Perhaps if opposing the war... (none / 0) (#39)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:25:31 AM EST
    ...is such a dealbreaking for Obama, he should have campaigned long and hard for Dean in 2004.

    [ Parent ]
    And Maybe... (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by AmyinSC on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:46:03 AM EST
    He wouldn't have been stumping for LIEBERMAN, that warmonger, in CT against the anti-war Democrat!!!

    WHY DOES NO ONE EVER TALK ABT THAT??  I just don't get it - Lieberman has been such a war hawk and has been FAR to the right to many Republicans!  But no one says a word.  No one thinks it is problematic that CT went (barely) for BO BECAUSE of his "stand" on Iraq!!  Spin, spin, spin - just makes my head hurt.

    [ Parent ]

    The Clintons (none / 0) (#154)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:29:14 AM EST
    also campaigned for LIeberman in the primary. Obama and Clinton both endorsed Lamont in the general election however.

    So there's not really any difference in the Lieberman affair between the candidates. And don't bring up the canard about Lieberman being his mentor - Obama was assigned Lieberman as a freshman mentor; he didn't pick him.Tom Daschle and Dick Durbin were much more influential to Obama in the Senate than any glancing contact with Lieberman.

    [ Parent ]

    Um... (none / 0) (#159)
    by AmyinSC on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:21:54 PM EST
    Clinton isn't going around saying she is the most anti-war candidate since the beginning of history (yes, that is sarcasm) like Obama is.  Like someone else said, he's become, to paraphrase Biden, "the noun, the verb, and I didn't vote for Iraq" candidate.  That is ALL he has said - and HE DIDN'T have to VOTE on it!

    Are you SERIOUSLY going to tell me he was in a tough political fight against ALAN KEYES????  My CAT could beat Alan Keyes because SHE IS SANE!!!  A tough Senate race - yeah, right.  Like his first IL race, when he got everyone else taken off the ballot.  Yeah.  OK.

    And I have to check for myself if Clinton really did support Lieberman - no offense, but again - there is a FUNDAMENTAL difference in how the two candidates frame their campaigns.  Just sayin'.

    [ Parent ]

    His fight was very tough (none / 0) (#160)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:50:40 PM EST
    in the Senate primary in 2004. Ryan was a pretty serious opponent until he had to drop out, although of course Keyes was a push-over. But I'm not sure how that's relevant?

    I'm not saying that Obama should get major plaudits for opposing the war in 2002, but he did oppose it. Clinton was for it, and she has not apologized for the vote, and, in the run-up to the vote, cut the knees out from under those that opposed the AUMF. If she had apologized for it, then I would have substantially less of an issue with her. So, from the evidence that there is to gather, I know which I'd prefer to pick up the <insert your favorite color> phone.

    And, for the record, both Clintons had very nice things to say about Lieberman in the primary. You can look up the quotes for yourself.

    [ Parent ]

    Seriously - (none / 0) (#161)
    by AmyinSC on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:51:51 PM EST
    I am trying to find anything online to support that Clinton stumped for Lieberman, but canot find anything.  Do you have a source?  Thanks. (Though glad to hear Clinton supported Lamont in the GE, as it should be.)

    [ Parent ]
    Sure (none / 0) (#163)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 02:00:35 PM EST
    here are two links: Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton.

    And yes, I actually am glad that all three switched to Lamont.

    [ Parent ]

    He was (none / 0) (#66)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:55:37 AM EST
    running in his own hard-fought primary in 2004, which ended after it was clear Kerry was going to be the candidate. So I'm not sure how he could have campaigned for Dean.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL, too busy campaigning... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:00:52 AM EST
    ...I keep hearing that. But perhaps he could have found the time to do a quick endorsement of Dean as the anitwar candidate?

    [ Parent ]
    Dean and Obama (none / 0) (#85)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:10:24 AM EST
    had a close relationship in 2004, but I can't find any article that indicates whether or not he endorsed anyone, partially because all the news sources from back then are in paid archives.

    [ Parent ]
    But it a vote for AUMF by Kerry (none / 0) (#79)
    by sleepingdogs on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:05:53 AM EST
    was forgivable by Obama--to the point he campaigned on Kerry's behalf--why is it now unacceptable for Clinton?  Does that seem hypocritical?  Just sayin'/askin'

    [ Parent ]
    He admitted it was a mistake (none / 0) (#162)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:53:51 PM EST
    she hasn't. That's a pretty big difference in my mind. She's gone on record saying that if the litmus test is realizing the AUMF vote was wrong (not just I would have voted differently if I knew what I know now), then she's the wrong candidate. I'm just agreeing with her.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:50:36 AM EST
    that this is one argument that Dems need to go toe to toe with the GOP on.

    I found Obama's response lacking in the fact that he never explains WHY being against the Iraq War is a positive national security argument. He hasn't set that up to be a winning argument IMO.

    True, because by that line of reasoning.... (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:11:57 AM EST
    ....I, Micheal Moore, and countless other people are  just as qualified to be president as Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    I'd say it's a minimum (none / 0) (#46)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:34:58 AM EST
    but not sufficient reason to be president. I.e. the minimum bar is realizing that Iraq was and is a huge strategic disaster. If one doesn't understand that reality, then there's no point in looking at other qualifications.

    [ Parent ]
    So Obama and Clinton (none / 0) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:36:09 AM EST
    both pass that bar. Then what?

    [ Parent ]
    Has Clinton actually called the (none / 0) (#61)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:47:24 AM EST
    war a major strategic failure?


    By February 2007, Clinton made a point of refusing to admit that her October 2002 Iraq War Resolution vote was a mistake, or to apologize for it, as anti-war Democrats demanded. "If the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast that vote or has said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from," Clinton told an audience in Dover, New Hampshire.

    So I'd say she hasn't, in my mind.

    [ Parent ]

    The editorial atop the speech (none / 0) (#67)
    by Kathy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:55:45 AM EST
    proves the bias.

    I heard Clinton say to a crowd in Atlanta as far back as early 2007 that the Senate was misled, that it was an authorization for force meant to make Sadaam back down (even Sadaam did not believe they would use force) and that with the benefit of hindsight, she would never have voted that way.

    But, Andrewwwm, why don't you investigoogle the statements Clinton made on the floor of the senate railing against use of force, warning Bush that he had to seek war authorization?  Or find the letters she wrote to the White House restating this?

    Or, better yet, find the ones that Obama sent once he got his US senate seat.

    [ Parent ]

    How about anything from Clinton (none / 0) (#72)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:59:52 AM EST
    that repudiates the strategic logic of going into Iraq? I've only ever heard her criticize Bush's conduct going into the war, not the fundamental ideology behind it.

    The reason: because she never has, and has consistently said so.

    Obama has been a consistent critic of the entire basis of the Iraq war.

    [ Parent ]

    Because that is your desire (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:06:27 AM EST
    I do not go on fool's errands.

    You will never believe she did no matter what you are provided.

    [ Parent ]

    And neither will you (none / 0) (#96)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:17:38 AM EST
    It's clear to almost all observers that she has not rejected the idea of preventative war, of waging wars against dictators whom we merely dislike.

    It's fine to say that this is not a problem for you, but to deny that this is her position is crazy.

    [ Parent ]

    All observers? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:34:05 AM EST
    Ridiculous.

    Andrew, you are incorrigible.

    [ Parent ]

    From her 2002 floor speech (none / 0) (#148)
    by spit on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:30:04 AM EST
    on her vote for the AUMF:

    "My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world."

    The rest is here. Some of the speech is frustrating looking back, but it's clear on reading it that she had a very much more nuanced opinion on things than most of the blogs care to remember. It's hardly full of glowing praise for Bush's pre-emptive war doctrine.

    [ Parent ]

    andrewwwm (none / 0) (#86)
    by Kathy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:11:35 AM EST
    You based your entire argument down thread on a red phone that wasn't even there.  Maybe you should investigate this stuff a tad more before you post?

    Clinton has said numerous times--on record--that the war was an absolute disaster.  She has called again and again for strategic reports and a withdrawal plan to get us out of this mess.  There isn't one windmill in the Bush White House she didn't rage against.

    But, let me ask you this: how do you feel about the fact that Obama supports a CORNERSTONE to American occupation, which is private mercenary firms like Blackwater, while Clinton calls to totally ban them and let the American military do the work for the American people?

    [ Parent ]

    Where has Clinton called to totally ban them? (none / 0) (#93)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:16:12 AM EST
    I admit I was wrong on the color of the phone, but the implied message is clear: a serious national security event requiring use of the hotline is only ever done in nuclear situation, regardless of the actual color of the phone.

    And finally, read this Larry King transcript of an interview with her.

    It's fine to say that she's your candidate despite her Iraq war logic, but there is no way that you can say her position rejects the strategic logic of the Iraq war.


    Obviously, I've thought about that a lot in the months since. No, I don't regret giving the president authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States, and clearly, Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for the international community for more than a decade....

    The consensus was the same, from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration. It was the same intelligence belief that our allies and friends around the world shared.

    But, she said, the Bush Administration "really believed it. They really thought they were right, but they didn't let enough sunlight into their thinking process to really have the kind of debate that needs to take place when a serious decision occurs like that."



    [ Parent ]
    Here ya go: (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Kathy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:24:05 AM EST
    Yet again, doing the work for you, Andrewwwm.  (As to your quote above, I don't read it how you do, but that is unsurprising)

    Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton announced today that she has cosponsored legislation to ban the use of Blackwater and other private mercenary firms in Iraq...The legislation requires that all personnel at any U.S. diplomatic or consular mission in Iraq be provided security services only by Federal Government Personnel.

    LINK to her statement.

    And Obama?  According to the Nation:

    Will Obama do that before November? "The answer is no, in all candor," says the senior Obama adviser. "Obviously it's a dynamic situation, and he'll continue to analyze it."

    So, yet again, Obama tries to play it to both sides.  He sure has a lot of "analyzing" to do, whether it's school vouchers or social security or keeping American mercenaries from raping and killing civilians in the name of our country.  

    Taylor Marsh breaks it down: LINK to story

    So, I ask again, what do you think of Obama refusing to stand up to folks like Blackwater while Clinton vocally opposes them?

    [ Parent ]

    Good FOr Her (none / 0) (#155)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:49:16 AM EST
    To come out against mercs, finally. It took Obama's statement of uncertainty to force her into it, which is not a bad thing. Maybe this will open Obama's eyes and he will also condemn mercs.

    [ Parent ]
    I guess you have not been listening then (none / 0) (#77)
    by cymro on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:04:15 AM EST
    She has said repeatedly that the surge has been a failure, when judged against the strategic objectives that Bush used to justify the surge. I hear her say that every time she is asked about the present situation in Iraq, and why we need to bring the troops home.

    Surely you are not claiming that her position is that the surge was redundant because the war was already a success before the surge was instituted, and that's why we can withdraw the troops now?

    The only alternative is that her position, and the reason for withdrawing the troops at the first possible opportunity, is that the war has been a strategic FAILURE. It was a failure before the surge, and it is still a failure now.

    [ Parent ]

    I said nothing about the surge (none / 0) (#87)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:11:40 AM EST
    I was only discussing her position on the 2002 arguments for the Iraq war.

    [ Parent ]
    would you like to give (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Kathy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:16:28 AM EST
    an exact time on that day the vote was taken to limit our responses?  Because she pretty forcefully added a codicil to her vote.  I'll let you look up what she said because, frankly, I'm getting tired of searching for and posting links that folks either don't read, or read and disregard because even when it's a clear fact, if it supports Clinton, then it must be wrong.

    [ Parent ]
    I've read her codicil (none / 0) (#97)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:18:57 AM EST
    And basically she was somewhat fearful of Bush's rush to war, not the strategic basis for the actual war.

    That doesn't cut it in the judgment category for me.

    [ Parent ]

    Relevant excerpt from Clinton's (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by tree on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:41:38 AM EST
    statement made on the Senate floor in October 2002 on the AUMF:

    "Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

    Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

    This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.

    [...]

    My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world."

    (From a good piece by eriposte on the AUMF at the Leftcoaster)

    [ Parent ]

    Beat me to it (none / 0) (#149)
    by spit on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:31:31 AM EST
    I should've read the whole thread before posting the same.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm kind of disappointed (none / 0) (#109)
    by Kathy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:29:50 AM EST
    Andrewwwm, usually you are a lot better at this.

    "She was somewhat fearful of Bush's rush to war"?  =  "Oh, dear, what will we do, what will we do?  What if he goes to war...?"

    Come on.  She has made more speeches (which apparently are the things that really matter), added more resolutions, written more letters and supported more resolutions to stop this stupid war than Obama has.

    He gave ONE SPEECH and that is the entirety of his reason for being president.  She has myriad ACTIONS behind her.

    But, no, those actions just show that she is "somewhat fearful" but not actually outraged or demanding answers.  If that is how you want to categorize her actions, then I think you should use the same yardstick for Obama's vaunted speech against the war--that he was only somewhat fearful that it would go awry.  Certainly, given his later politically motivated equivocations, I could certainly buy this argument.

    (And I will leave it to others to brandish the charge of sexism here, because I don't think you're being sexist so much as blind.)

    [ Parent ]

    I'm still very upset at her (none / 0) (#120)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:36:06 AM EST
    for the way the acceptance of the basic logic of the Iraq War project and for her and her husband providing cover to the administration on intelligence issues. It was unacceptable. That she wrote resolutions asking to make it run better and wait a while longer doesn't excuse the very poor judgment shown on these other aspects.

    This is the main reason I oppose her candidacy (the other being her advisers). It was heartbreaking to me to watch the Dems fall in line in 2002, and made me very angry that her and her husband helped deliver the coup de grace to the opponents in the Senate.

    I freely acknowledge that Obama didn't have much responsibility then, but that's a far sight better than Clinton's conduct in my book. Since then, to the extent they've had divergent foreign policy preferences, Obama has almost always been to the left of Clinton. I know which judgment I prefer.

    [ Parent ]

    Where did you mention 2002? (none / 0) (#100)
    by cymro on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:21:14 AM EST
    You said that:

    the minimum bar is realizing that Iraq was and is a huge strategic disaster

    Has Clinton ever said that the war was a success? No.
    Has Clinton ever said that the war is a failure? Yes, repeatedly.

    Case closed, by your own stated criterion. End of discussion.

    [ Parent ]

    No (none / 0) (#108)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:29:16 AM EST
    she said it has been run ineptly. She never said that the whole project was wrong from the start (preemptive war, etc).

    [ Parent ]
    "pre-emptive war, etc." (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by tree on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:45:54 AM EST
    My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

    From the speech I partially quoted above, made ON THE DAY THAT CLINTON VOTED FOR the AUMF in October 2002.

    [ Parent ]

    Hopefully you won't have to... (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:49:00 AM EST
    ..post this a third time, but ya never know. ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    tree...tree...tree... (none / 0) (#138)
    by Kathy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:52:09 AM EST
    speeches don't matter unless Obama makes them.  A year later.  And in front of an audience.  And then re-records them so they sound prettier.

    [ Parent ]
    Then why did she say this? (none / 0) (#142)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:05:51 AM EST

    In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

    It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.
    ....
    So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.
    ....
    So, Mr. President, the question is how do we do our best to both defuse the real threat that Saddam Hussein poses to his people, to the region, including Israel, to the United States, to the world, and at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations?
    ....
    In the case of Iraq, recent comments indicate that one or two Security Council members might never approve force against Saddam Hussein until he has actually used chemical, biological, or God forbid, nuclear weapons.

    Preemptive war means attacking before any signs of use.

    She said that if we don't get a UN resolution, then we should attack anyway ("with our hand strengthened") to prevent Saddam from sending weapons to terrorists or him achieving capabilities with  WMD. That's preemption under any reasonable definition of the word.


    [ Parent ]

    "She said ... (none / 0) (#151)
    by tree on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:35:01 AM EST
    ...that if we don't get a UN resolution, then we should attack anyway."

    You see red phones that aren't there and imagine arguments being made by Cinton that have no bearing whatsoever on what she actually said. She said nothing even close to what you allege above. You seem to have your believes and then try to marshal facts to support them, squeezing and distorting everything to match your pre-conceived ideas.

    I just got off a long shift a few hours ago. I need  to sleep. Maybe someone else wants to bang their head against the wall for a while. I'm too tired.  

    [ Parent ]

    She Can Call Her Vote Anything (none / 0) (#156)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:53:36 AM EST
    She wanted to, that doesn't make it so.  It was a vote for preemptive military action, obviously. Many saw the AUMF for what it was and voted against it.

    [ Parent ]
    If you keep moving the goalposts, eventually ... (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by cymro on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:46:27 AM EST
    ... you will find a criterion that allows you to justify your biases.

    [ Parent ]
    Which goalposts? (none / 0) (#146)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:10:33 AM EST
    I think it showed bad judgment for her to accept the intelligence of the Bush administration on Iraq. I don't think it disqualifies her as a candidate.

    Her continued refusal to reject the underlying logic of the Iraq war and her non-apology apologies for her vote are what, in my mind, disqualify her.

    [ Parent ]

    What are you talking about? (none / 0) (#13)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:56:28 AM EST
    He's said it time and again - the Iraq war hurt our economy, destroyed our international credibility (which is useful to get things done) and diverted us from Afghanistan and the hunt for the real radical terrorists.

    I don't think this is still a point of debate among Democrats is it?

    [ Parent ]

    I'm talking (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:08:35 AM EST
    specifically about this ad.

    [ Parent ]
    He certainly supported Bush (none / 0) (#64)
    by Kathy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:51:40 AM EST
    when Bush bombed parts of Pakistan (no matter the huge collateral damage that the European networks are reporting).  He also claimed that Pakistan didn't know it was coming, though the same European networks say the government was told through back channels so they wouldn't, you know, think India was attacking them and throw a nuke their way.

    At least Obama keeps his foreign policy short and sweet: "I told you so!"

    [ Parent ]

    Interesting topic.... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:08:02 AM EST
    The funny thing is Obama did not shy away or shriek in fear of this ad. He responded forcefully. All the fearful shrieking came from some Left blogs. Pretty funny really.

    If I could develop the objectivity to look past all the faux outrage and hysteria from some of these blogs, I might actually like Obama better. I'm working on it, but I'm only human.

    I know what you mean (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:22:54 AM EST
    I've done a lot of introspection on this lately. I know that it is wrong and petty of me to not like Obama based on the noxious behavior of his supporters, and I'm honestly working on hard on getting past that.

    But I've also thought a lot about what my reaction would have been if the tables had been turned during this period of time - in other words, if instead of being witness to the constant mockery and ridicule of Hillary (thick ankles, unlikeable, claws, shrill, only there because of her husband, and on and on), we had instead witnessed an avalanche of ridicule and mockery towards Obama with the same kinds of demeaning language (one can imagine what kinds of analagous words would have been used), the I honestly think I would be rallying behind him instead of Hillary. I think I just can't stand unfairness.

    [ Parent ]

    Copycat candidate (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by ineedalife on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:10:53 AM EST
    I think Hillary has (or had) a golden chance to pile on Obama with the plagiarism issues here. His camp just took the first half of her ad and tacked on a couple stock slides at the end. That is how they got it out so quick.

    Hillary shouldn't discuss this as a response ad but ridicule it as more copycat work that Obama is now famous for. He lifts his stump speech from Patrick, his Henry and Louis ads from Karl Rove, his health care plan is a triangulated-down version of Hillary's, etc, etc.

    All hat, no cattle. The "Copycat Candidate".

    When I (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:22:05 AM EST
    watched the ad... that was my first impression.

    Does this guy realize he was he is copying AGAIN!!!

    She should go after that one.

    [ Parent ]

    The problem with that argument is (none / 0) (#30)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:20:46 AM EST
    that Clinton's ad is almost a direct ripoff of the 1984 ad by Walter Mondale, used against Gary Hart. So I'm not sure she wants to go down that road.

    Plus, it's pretty clear that Obama's using the segment from her ad as parody.

    [ Parent ]

    Not a problem (none / 0) (#40)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:26:13 AM EST
    She did not COPY the exact images form that ad.

    [ Parent ]
    In isolation maybe. (none / 0) (#43)
    by ineedalife on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:29:09 AM EST
    But now that he has a track record of copying whatever works without regard to authorship he is vulnerable. This one instance just gets added to the growing list.

    [ Parent ]
    In this case (none / 0) (#53)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:42:40 AM EST
    it's clear that he's using it as parody - anyone watching it will know that it was an intentional effort to use Clinton's argument but instead turn it towards Obama.  

    [ Parent ]
    I must (none / 0) (#68)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:56:42 AM EST
    NOT be ANYONE.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (none / 0) (#130)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:44:32 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I think that's (none / 0) (#41)
    by kmblue on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:26:40 AM EST
    a really bad idea.


    [ Parent ]
    Just my opinion. (none / 0) (#42)
    by kmblue on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:27:18 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Can I just take a moment to praise the bloggers (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by goldberry on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:26:41 AM EST
    who run this site.  
    You are really doing an excellent job of not losing your minds when all around are losing theirs.  And, YOU, BTD, have come a long way from the days when you used to torment some poor Kossacks (might have even been me on occasion).  
    Bravo!  Keep it up.

    Breaking my rule (none / 0) (#1)
    by Deconstructionist on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:32:23 AM EST
     because it's a short post with no comments, so I read it and will respond.

      Would not a major difference be that McCain is a Republican questioning a Democrat's competence as opposed to one Democrat questioning another Democrat's competence?

    You have a rule? (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:41:35 AM EST
    I'll answer your question. Your argument, I gather, is that instead of touting Hillary's competence to answer that call, the ad is arguing that Obama is incompetent to do so.

    I suppose that is a plausible interpretation. Let's suppose for a moment it is. If Obama can be viewed in that fashion, is is illegitimate to raise it? The ad does not argue why Obama is incompetent. It would be using existing beliefs.

    In that sense, while this view is something you have to bring to the ad because it is not explicitly there, Obama has expressly argued that Clinton is beholden to lobbyists. Did you object to Obama campaigning in that fashion?

    Here's my point, if you object to negative campaigning, then you need to object to ALL of it.

    I object to character attacks - i.e. - when Edwards, Dodd and Obama along with the cheering of the Media reveled in calling Hillary dishonest.

    Negative campaigning on issues seems to me to be fair game.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm just saying (none / 0) (#14)
    by Deconstructionist on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:58:04 AM EST
      that is a difference, and some people might view negative ads targeting fellow party members differently than they view those targeting ther other party.

     It's up to each individual to decide for himself or herself what type,  if any, of negative campaigning they condone. Sadly, despite your exalted position, you don't get to decide how other people are required to think and behave.  

      As for viewing the ad as anything other than a purposeful attempt to make people doubt Obama's competence in a national security crisis, I might consider that if there was anyone else left in the race.

    [ Parent ]

    Then do you agree (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:30:21 AM EST
    that if they view negative ads on fellow Dems as bad they should have raised their ire towards Obama as well?

    My point is they only mind negative ads from Hillary, not negative ads from Obama.

    Making their objections to Hillary's negative ads shameless hypocritical.

    [ Parent ]

    It doesn't really matter (none / 0) (#48)
    by Deconstructionist on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:36:36 AM EST
     whether I agree or not, but yes I would say both candidates should be held to the same standard with regard to campaign tactics targeting each other.

    [ Parent ]
    Well none of this matters (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:43:22 AM EST
    I was just asking your view of it.

    [ Parent ]
    Go to work on Decon for a while, BTD! (none / 0) (#26)
    by scribe on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:14:11 AM EST
    And, while you're at it, consider the possibilities of an Obama-Bloomberg ticket.  The NY papers surely are, and Obama's called Bloomberg for "a friendly chat".

    Lieberman's protege chatting amiably with Lieberman's buddy.

    All Holy Joe, all the time.  Just what the doctor ordered. (/sarcasm)

    IMHO, that possibility would surely sour the stomachs of most Democratic voters, and might ensure the election of Lieberman's best friend in the Senate, McBush.

    [ Parent ]

    That is the entire premise of Obama's campaign (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by ineedalife on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:58:12 AM EST
    Obama's only  thing is that he claims superior judgement on national security issues and continually beats Hillary over the head with the AUMF vote. NON-STOP. All the rest of his campaign is just window dressing. Without this issue his campaign was a non-starter.

    Hillary pushes back and she is tearing down another Democrat. The double-standards are amazing.

    [ Parent ]

    No one forced Clinton (none / 0) (#18)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:05:00 AM EST
    to vote yes on the AUMF. Turns out that was, by far, the biggest vote Congress has taken in probably the last 20 years. And she got it wrong and won't apologize for it. There's not much else to say about it.

    [ Parent ]
    She has said maybe (none / 0) (#37)
    by ineedalife on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:24:20 AM EST
    But the point of the post I was responding to was that Hillary's ad was bad because it questioned the competence of a fellow Democrat.  But by that standard both campaigns suffer. And even further, that is all Obama has.

    Hillary has backed off the AUMF vote and said she would do it differently if she knew then what she knows now. Of course she hasn't apologized for it because a vote is made in the context of the times. Even Obama has said that if he was in the Senate then he might have voted for it. Of course, that was before he was running for president when he decided to demonize her on this issue.

    [ Parent ]

    It was the biggest vote (none / 0) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:44:58 AM EST
    and Clinton is rightly being called on it.

    But the reality is Clinton's vote on the IWR was meaningless on the issue of whether we went to war. It was passed 77-23.

    [ Parent ]

    She's a senator from NY (none / 0) (#63)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:50:22 AM EST
    she was in no danger of losing her seat by voting no on it. If she had been from Nebraska or Ohio, then maybe I can see it as an electoral calculation. But there were 22 other senators in much riskier states that voted no (for example, Paul Wellstone).

    Furthermore, her and her husband's vocal support for the president's claim of WMD actually undercut those who opposed the war. It was really low.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with that (none / 0) (#98)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:19:15 AM EST
    Her thinking, my speculation here, was like John Kerry's, running for President in the future.

    But you have strayed far off of your original point.

    [ Parent ]

    I was only replying to your point (none / 0) (#105)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:24:54 AM EST
    about the significance of her vote and her comments around that time. Both cut the knees out from under the Iraq War critics, for no obvious senatorial electoral gain (but obviously for possible presidential gain).

    She cut the knees out from under the critics of the most essential vote we've ever had to further her own presidential ambitions. Charming.

    [ Parent ]

    McCain benefits from the stereotype bordering on (none / 0) (#6)
    by rhbrandon on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:44:03 AM EST
    caricature that the GOP is better on national security.  McCain has no more significant real experience than Clinton or Obama: many have military experience of one sort or another that we would be mad to entrust with our national security (not, not Dubya as such; thinking along the lines of Barry Goldwater).

    McCain does, in his own way as a result, benefit from the soft bigotry of low national defense expectations as a Republican (after all, he's running as Bush's third term). Obama benefits from a similar short-term softness because of his movement status. Clinton catches no breaks at all because the kool kids are determined that she won't, even though more Democrats have voted for her during the primary season than for Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    curious -- do you object (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:18:07 AM EST
    to the incidents when Obama negatively campaigns against Hillary too?

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Talks Too Much. He's All Hat, No Cattle. (none / 0) (#2)
    by GeekLove08 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:34:21 AM EST
    Anyone notice that immediately after Hillary's ad, Obama denounced and rejected that type of fear-mongering ad only to turn around and release the same type of ad?

    I fail to see how he is an example of the "new style of politics".  I guess he was against these type of ads, before he was for it.

    In my view he's just a talking head-- here's my youtube video:  Obama "Talks too Much".  He's All Hat, No Cattle.
    Enjoy.

    Frankly, at 3 a.m., I want a President who will PUSH THE RIGHT BUTTON.

    That is false (1.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:44:32 AM EST
    Obama said the ad raised a legitimate question and then said the right answer to it was you want him to be answering that phone call.

    Your comment is false.

    [ Parent ]

    From news reports, (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by tree on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:23:51 AM EST
    it looks like Obama tried to have it both ways.

    According toYahoo news

    "Obama, on a roll after winning the last 11 nominating contests in the race to be the Democratic Party candidate in November's presidential elections, hit back, accused Clinton of using fear to whip up votes.

    "We've seen these ads before. They're usually the kind that play upon people's fears and try to scare our votes," the 46-year-old senator told a rally in Texas."

    And then his campaign ran the very same kind of ad.

    Personally, I didn't think either one of the ads were fear-mongering. They both simply played up their campaign's talking points on national security.

    But some bloggers are claiming its Rovian tactics(but only when Clinton did it, of course.) That's ridiculous. I just saw a similar ad put out by Mondalein 1984 against Hart. Just a red phone ringing. The ad negatively mentions Hart by name. The Clinton ad is quite tame in comparison.
    I wish people would actually look at the old Willy Horton ads, or the Cleland ads to see what a real Rovian type attack ad is. Clinton's and wasn't an attack ad.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama "Talks too Much". (none / 0) (#12)
    by GeekLove08 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:53:03 AM EST
    The question of security is legitimate but in response to the ad, he said, "We've seen these ads before. They're the kind that play on people's fears to try to scare up votes."  He even added he doesn't think it will work.

    [ Parent ]
    You said that (none / 0) (#23)
    by flyerhawk on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:10:08 AM EST
    he denounced and rejected the ad.  He did not in any way do so.

    He trivialized the ad.  

    [ Parent ]

    He responded to the ad (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:24:27 AM EST
    That is hardly trivializing it. He did not shriek about the ad.

    His response was the right one. Whether he has the better of the argument, I leave that to others. But his ATTITUDE towards the ad was the right one.  

    [ Parent ]

    OK (none / 0) (#56)
    by flyerhawk on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:44:18 AM EST
    I'm not arguing with you about that.

    I wasn't bothered by the Clinton ad at all.  I thought it was fairly blah in truth.  

    [ Parent ]

    Clinton's ad (none / 0) (#28)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:17:08 AM EST
    is almost a direct rip-off of the one used by Mondale in 1984 to scare up votes against Gary Hart. It's also a descendent from the Daisy-Cutter ad used by Johnson against Goldwater, and also the Wolves ad used against Kerry.

    But people have become fairly desensitized to these types of ads by now (one good thing I guess Bush has done) so I'm not really sure how it helps her.

    [ Parent ]

    That is absurd (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:30:54 AM EST
    The Daisy ad? You have jumped the shark.

    [ Parent ]
    Clearly it is (none / 0) (#49)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:39:30 AM EST
    using the image of serious national security threats to question the credibility of the other contender. It's the same basic template (including using images of kids), but significantly toned down.

    Have you actually watched the daisy ad? I suggest doing it right after watching Clinton's ad. The parallels are not perfect but it is clear that they are of the same class of ads.

    [ Parent ]

    Have you? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:41:23 AM EST
    It includes a nuclear explosion.

    And you compare it. You have so jumped the shark you cannot even see the shark.

    Do you even understand what was offensive about the Daisy ad?

    [ Parent ]

    Uh yes (none / 0) (#57)
    by andrewwm on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:44:47 AM EST
    Using the threat of a massive national security failure as an argument to vote for a particular candidate.

    Clinton used the implied threat of an unspecified national security failure as an argument to vote for a particular candidate. In fact, the Red Phone is only ever intended to be used for nuclear issues, so they're closer than I thought in the first case.

    [ Parent ]

    You've SOO jumped the shark (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by tree on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:57:55 AM EST
    ... that its ruined your color perception.

    In fact, the Red Phone is only ever intended to be used for nuclear issues, so they're closer than I thought in the first case.

    Might make SOME sense, if it wasn't for the pesky fact that the phone that Clinton picks up is WHITE! Looks like a case of seeing what you want to see rather than what's there.

    [ Parent ]