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Heck Of A Way To Choose A Nominee

By Big Tent Democrat

Markos on the impending Texas caucus fiasco, from an unnamed source:

I imagine that will be the case in most of the polling places in XXXX County and probably most polling places around the state. Nobody is prepared for the turnout, and until several weeks ago there was almost certainly a majority of voters who didn't know about the caucus, and probably a lot of precinct volunteers who didn't realize there'd be caucusing. Ninety-eight percent of those showing up will be first-time caucusers.

In short, it's going to be a nightmare.

. . .

Still loving those Texas caucuses Obama supporters? More . . .

Here is a Hillary video explaining the caucuses:

Update [2008-3-1 11:56:20 by Big Tent Democrat]: I soooooo disagree with this from Anna:

The bottom line is this: sign in and stay. If it's hot, tough shit. If it's crowded, tough shit. If it's chaos, tough shit. This is democracy and this is how it works. People in other states have waited for hours to caucus. They sacrificed their time in order to participate.

This is NOT democracy! Democracy is the will of the voters expressed in an election. You should not have to "sacrifice" to have your vote counted.

I HATE the attitude that you have to earn your right to vote.

< Media Bias Against Clinton? No Kidding | Open Thread >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I am not a fan of the caucus system (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by desmoinesdem on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:05:37 AM EST
    even in Iowa, where the people running the caucuses and most of the people attending the caucuses know what they are doing.

    In almost every other state, the caucuses have been a total fiasco.

    I would absolutely support a DNC rule change requiring states to do the presidential selection through primaries.

    CLOSED primaries (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:08:02 AM EST
    Or in the alternative, national vote by mail.

    Parent
    Then work hard (none / 0) (#6)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:10:59 AM EST
    to change them, state by state, between now and 2012. Right now the rules are what they are.

    Parent
    Bob (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by SarahinCA on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:15:25 AM EST
    Easy for you to say considering where you live.  You do realize it's OK to talk about the un-democratic way we are nominating our candidate?  The "rule are rules" line is tired and adds nothing to the discussion.

    Parent
    Consider this the beginning (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:13:56 AM EST
    of the hard work Bob.

    It does bother you so to here bad things about caucuses. Makes you think you will be opposing such rule changes.

    Parent

    I, too don't like the caucus system (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by zfran on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:10:39 AM EST
    I live in Texas and will vote on Tuesday for Hillary Clinton. I find it interesting that when some people (including media) refer to Sen. Obama they call him "Senator Obama" but frequently call Sen. Clinton "Hillary." I find this very disrespectful and a double standard. I intend to caucus on Tuesday evening, although I think it's blatently bias, if this is what it takes to give Senator Clinton a few more delegates, then that is what I will do. I imagine after this campaign, probably the most important I have ever voted in (I'm 57), the rules will be changed. I hope so!!!

    she refers to herself as Hillary (none / 0) (#59)
    by ksh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:13:20 AM EST
    sigh.  There are, I think, sexist trends in Hillary coverage, but when all her signs say "Hillary" it's tough to make the argument that it's sexist to refer to her by her first name.

    Parent
    That (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:24:44 AM EST
    is why I go by Mrs. Bill Clinton.

    Parent
    Asians do too. (none / 0) (#97)
    by BrandingIron on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 04:45:02 PM EST
    Asians refer to women as their husband, so it's "Mrs. Bill".  An asian blogger in Texas commented about how the whole community is fired up, ready to vote and caucus for "Mrs. Bill".

    Parent
    It's not tough to (none / 0) (#65)
    by SarahinCA on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:18:51 AM EST
    make the argument.  The signs aren't for the media, they are for her supporters, tv watchers, the electorate.  The original comment was about how the media refers to the two candidates.  It's simple.  It's done on purpose, and it's clear the intention by most news media what is going on.  

    Parent
    What exactly (none / 0) (#83)
    by dogooder on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    is the intention? And just what is the proportion of incidences of "Hillary" to "Clinton" (as compared to "Barack" to "Obama") in the media? Have you done the research or is it all anecdotal?

    Parent
    I dunno, sounds a bit strained (none / 0) (#88)
    by ksh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:45:42 PM EST
    like I said, I think there is some sexism in coverage and probably some sexism driving some anti-Clinton votes, but use of her name is not where I'd place my emphasis.

    Parent
    I am a Hillary Precinct Captain (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:15:10 AM EST
    and I can confirm that it will be a nightmare.  We will caucus at 7:15 on Tuesday, elect our delegates and then those delegates must attend a county convention on March 29th where they will indicate their preference.  After that the delegates elected at the county convention have to attend a regional convention, vote again and then again delegates are elected and they go on to the state convention in June where they will vote one last time.  At each juncture, the delegates can change their preference.  We will not know the allocation of those 67 caucus delegates for months.

    Caucus process question (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:27:18 AM EST
    From what I understand, you sign in at the caucus and part of the sign in is to state your preference of candidate?  Do you have to stay for the length of the precinct meeting for that preference vote to count?

    I will be able to hang in there, but I know lots of people might not do it.

    Parent

    You do not have to stay (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:48:59 AM EST
    but you should to elect your candidate's delegates.  If no delegates are "elected" your candidate is screwed.

    Parent
    Thanks. I'll stay then. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:53:25 AM EST
    I think this is incorrect (none / 0) (#91)
    by lobary on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 03:09:53 PM EST
    According to the Texas Democratic Party rules, a person does not need to attend the caucus to be a delegate to the county convention. You need to show up to sign in and have your preference counted to the delegate allocation.

    8. Election of Delegates and Alternates.

    (a) Apportionment.

    (1) Each Precinct Convention shall elect one Delegate for each 25 votes, or major fraction thereof, cast in the precinct for the Democratic candidate for Governor in the last General Election, with each precinct entitled to at least one Delegate; provided, however, that for the years 2008 and 2010, each Precinct Convention shall elect one Delegate for each 15 votes, or a major fraction thereof, cast in the precinct for the Democratic candidate for Governor in the last General Election, with each precinct entitled to at least one Delegate. (Temporary Rule Change)

    (2) If boundaries of an election precinct within a county were changed after the last General Election, however, the County Executive Committee shall determine the allocation of Delegates to such precinct(s), using any fair and reasonable method.

    (3) Each Precinct Convention shall elect one Alternate for each Delegate.

    (b) Qualifications. The qualifications for Delegates and Alternates shall be the same as those required for participation in the convention, except that a person otherwise qualified need not be present at the convention to be elected a Delegate or Alternate.


    Parent

    Do you need to be (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:31:34 AM EST
    a citizen of the US? Resident of Texas? Registered to vote? Can you show up at any caucus you want?

    Parent
    When you vote in the primary (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:35:03 AM EST
    you get a card with your precinct number for the caucus and verification that you voted in the Democratic primary stamped on it.

    If people at the caucus don't check the card and verify your ID, you got nothing...

    Parent

    If primary voting lasts until 7:00 and the (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Teresa on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:38:24 AM EST
    caucus starts at 7:00, how in the heck are you supposed to be at two places at one time. This really makes it unfair for people who can't vote until the evening. They'll never make it to the caucus on time. Can they continue to show up until 9:00?

    Parent
    From what I understand (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:41:56 AM EST
    the doors to the caucus could close as early as 7:15, but I'm not sure of that.  This is a real cluster**.  The caucus actually won't start at 7:00, rather it will start when the polls close at that location.  If there are long lines waiting to vote, the caucus could start much later...

    Parent
    But I thought the place you vote isn't (none / 0) (#38)
    by Teresa on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:43:50 AM EST
    necessarily the same place you caucus? If it is, at least that's helpful.

    Parent
    Election day voting locations (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:01:48 AM EST
    should be the same as your caucus location, but the early voting locations are different.  I hope people don't show up at the the early voting locations.  The more I think about this, the worse it seems.


    Parent
    So to participate in the caucus (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:38:52 AM EST
    You have to vote in the primary. Well, that is good.

    Who checks the cards at the caucuses?

    Parent

    I'll bet that "checking" varies (none / 0) (#37)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:43:39 AM EST
    from place to place.  I'd put money that at some locations Osama Bin Laden could vote.
     

    Parent
    This has all the makings of (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:45:13 AM EST
    a chaotic travesty.

    Parent
    checking cards (none / 0) (#58)
    by wasabi on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:12:58 AM EST
    It is up to the precinct chair to check if everyone has their card, or if they don't, to gothru the voting logs to verify that the person actually voted Democratic in the primary.  If the precinct chair does not do that, a "Point of Order" is called forcing the checking to occur.

    Parent
    Chaos and a travesty (none / 0) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:24:44 AM EST
    in the making.

    Parent
    Sounds sketchy (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:44:05 AM EST
    BTW, Supposedly the caucuses can verify whether you voted in the primary if you bring your Voter registration or photo id. How is that possible if you voted at say 6:30?

    This is going to be a disaster.

    Parent

    caucus (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by wasabi on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:14:30 AM EST
    The caucus occurs at the same location as the voting.  15 minutes after the polls close, the caucus is to begin.  At that time, the Democratic voter logs are brought to the caucus room so verification if needed can begin.

    Parent
    Caucus locations still can change (none / 0) (#94)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 04:17:42 PM EST
    even on that day, per a wire story in my paper this morning. That was one of the issues raised by the Clinton campaign -- an issue that ought to matter in a democracy, and that even includes Texas. :-) But no, Obama and media say she just complains too much about it all. I'll tell ya, from reports I've read of other caucuses in other states (and I have gone to the local online newspapers to read hundreds of such reports now) -- caucuses too often now are, as BTD says, chaotic and travesties.

    Parent
    You don't have to stay (none / 0) (#90)
    by lobary on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 02:52:03 PM EST
    Your vote counts in the final precinct tally whether you stay or go. The only thing you lose by leaving is the ability to be elected as a delegate to the county convention.

    Parent
    Same caucus process in WA (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by oldpro on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:58:54 AM EST
    ...our primary, however, wasn't held on the same day and doesn't 'count' in delegate selections.  Still, hundreds of thousands more people voted in the Dem primary, knowing it wouldn't count, than went to the Dem caucuses.

    The results were quite different...caucuses, 2-1 for Obama.  In the primary, he got not quite 51%.

    Parent

    Oh my G-d, what? (none / 0) (#98)
    by BrandingIron on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 04:50:10 PM EST
    it's no wonder Clinton said that grown men are crying over this process.  This IS going to be chaos.  I'm glad I live in a primary state.

    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:16:26 AM EST
    all the caucuses should be gotten rid of. The vote in WA showed how unrepresentative they are of the voting population. I say go for all primaries. The one positive that will come out of all this is what a disaster our system has proven to be.

    I imagine if this was a foreign country (none / 0) (#95)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 04:19:10 PM EST
    and we were reading reports of our system -- try putting in another country's name -- we would be appalled and sending Jimmy Carter there asap.

    Parent
    Here's my question (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:18:02 AM EST
    Will there be a paper trail?

    At the caucus level (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:25:51 AM EST
    anyone that shows up can call the convention to order.  It's a question of who gets the caucus packet in their hands.  To vote in the caucus the only technical requirement is that you must have voted in the primary but no one person is responsible to qualifying the voter because the election judge is busy running the primary.

    To vote at the caucus who simply sign in and indicate your preference by checking off a box.  Anyone can move to cease the voting so long as there is no line and it is "reasonable". Based on the votes, the delegates are apportioned and they must be elected that night.  

    Is that a paper trail?

    Parent

    You gotta be kidding me (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:29:24 AM EST
    NO ONE is qualifying the voters in THE CAUCUS???

    Hell there not only is no paper trial, there is not even a vapor trial.

    This is disgraceful.

    Parent

    Jeez, outrageous! (none / 0) (#21)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:30:49 AM EST
    Seriously (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:32:41 AM EST
    Is this for real?

    Parent
    If you vote, (none / 0) (#26)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:36:24 AM EST
    that is if you sign in and leave, this is what the Obama campaign is telling the voter to do, and if they do not hang around long enough to elect their delegates, guess what, it was all for naught.

    At my tiny precinct, I live in a town of 2000 and we have three precincts, we have to elect 18 delegates and 18 alternates.  Do you know how hard it is going to be to find that many people to commit to attend the county convention three weeks from now?  Near impossible.

    Parent

    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:38:54 AM EST
    Now I know I've got to stay for the after caucus bake sale in order for my vote to count  :-)


    Parent
    But before you sign in (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:37:44 AM EST
    How do we know you are an eligible voter?

    Parent
    Who has the better paid enforcers on site. . ? (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:39:57 AM EST
    Maybe they (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:43:19 AM EST
    stamped your voter registration card when you voted in the primary and then maybe they didn't.  Maybe they gave you a little card if you chose to vote during the early voting period and then maybe they didn't.  They are supposed to stamp the poll list when you vote but each county, each precinct is different.  Some of these election judges are clueless.  Trust me I have been an election judge and it is a joke.  

    The threat of prosecution is suppose to be the deterent but whose gonna go through the thousands of votes cast?

    Parent

    A chaotic travesty in the making (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:47:03 AM EST
    At the caucus, no one will be verifying that (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:53:10 AM EST
    you are on the poll list.  If you do not have your voter registration card, you simply show id.  That can include a photo id, driver's license, student id, a utility bill, a cancelled check believe it or not.  When you sign in you are signing an affidavit saying you are an eligible voter.

    Parent
    Eligible voters (none / 0) (#70)
    by wasabi on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:24:44 AM EST
    You have to have registered to vote about 4 weeks prior to the election.  We don't register by party.  When you go vote you ask for a Democratic ballot or a Republican one. You show your voting registration card or your ID and they look you up on a computer if early voting or in the logsheets if at the voting/caucus site.
    Anyone who votes early will be on a list available at the voting site to prevent that person from voting in the election again on Feb 4th.

    Parent
    In Texas you do register by Party! (none / 0) (#73)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:28:29 AM EST
    But our primaries and caucuses are open so you may vote in either.

    Parent
    Then I hope they sign in and leave. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Teresa on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:40:15 AM EST
    yes they do (none / 0) (#63)
    by wasabi on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:16:17 AM EST
    But someone has to call a point of order to force the precinct chair to make sure you either have your card or you are listed in the voter rolls as having voted Democratic.

    Parent
    I suspect that will be coming up a lot (none / 0) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:23:53 AM EST
    Heh, I want video ;) (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:22:30 AM EST
    Where's TINS? (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:30:27 AM EST
    KO?

    Parent
    Reading the comments in that post, (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Teresa on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:22:12 AM EST
    even the Texas people that are active in politics are confused. One says you can sign in and then leave and another says no, you have to stay.

    I would be furious if, after I stood in line in a primary, then I had to go out that night into a crowd of confused people because I needed to vote again.

    Of all the crazy rules we've seen, this one is the worst. Well maybe the primary that didn't count in Washington belongs on that list.  


    If I lived in Texas (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:26:07 AM EST
    I would be bringing canapes.  Make friends and stuff you know, be influential while people could be starving or needing some comfort food ;)  GO Hillary!

    Parent
    Scuse me if I sound naive but... (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by kenoshaMarge on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:02:48 AM EST
    Having fair elections shouldn't have anything to do with who your candidate is. It should be about voters having the chance to participate. If Obama supporters are so sure that they are bringing more and more people out to vote they should want every dang one of them to have an equal chance to participate.

    Should some questions have been raised before now? Of course they should. But does that mean that we all just shrug our shoulders and say, "oh well, that's the way it is".

    I thought the Republicans were the ones that were all in favor of winning by any means. Seems I was wrong about that.

    I think it's sort of quaint in a Rockwell kind of (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by ksh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:17:50 AM EST
    way, but it doesn't seem to efficient.  

    However, Clinton's objections ring a bit hollow to me.  She had plenty of time to figure out how to best this forum.  I don't know if the "sue Texas" stuff is true (I have my doubts), but that would be unfortunate for her and make her look like a poor loser (if she loses...can't see her challenging the Texas system if she wins).

    I just wish it would all end and people can stop going for each other's throats.

    An election (none / 0) (#67)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:23:20 AM EST
    that best the will of the voters is a travesty.

    Is that difficult to acknowledge?

    Forget about Hillary. Think about the voters.

    Parent

    like I said (none / 0) (#84)
    by ksh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:20:53 PM EST
    not to [sic] efficent, but I've never caucused and I don't have a real feel for it.  The voters attend and participate, obviously, but I haven't heard a lot of complaints from those who've done it in caucus states or from the Dem party structure in those states.

    I have heard complaints from the Clinton campaign, however.  Not saying they aren't valid.  Just saying if she wins, I'm guessing it will be a non issue.

    I think her problem is more the delegate apportionment as it's based on the last election and there was more participation in the urban areas.  I don't know that for sure, but it's the conclusion I reached after looking at some stats regarding which areas have the most delegates and reading a diary about it posted on Daily Kos (I don't remember the diarist stating a preference, just explaining the system, but I could be remembering wrong).

    Parent

    common misconception (none / 0) (#86)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:40:02 PM EST
    about participation, at least where primaries are concerned.  This was cleared up for me by a gentleman at IVR Polls yesterday.

    Traditionally, Latino voters in South Texas dominate democratic primaries in TX.  An example is Webb County, Laredo, where participation was 29% in '04 vs Harris County, Houston, where participation was 4% in the democratic primary.

    In the general election, participation goes up in the urban areas thus the current delegate apportionment.  What interests me is does the primary participation go sky high in those urban areas this time?  It looks like it will now.


    Parent

    exactly (none / 0) (#87)
    by ksh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:43:17 PM EST
    and it was The Burnt Orange Report, not Daily Kos.  A good two-part series that helped me understand it a bit better.

    http://www.burntorangereport.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4877

    Parent

    doesn't seem too efficient (none / 0) (#76)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:30:36 AM EST
    You're a master of understatement  :-)


    Parent
    yeah, well, I guess Nevada (none / 0) (#85)
    by ksh on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:21:36 PM EST
    underlies that one.

    Parent
    Your point, Big D? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:08:48 AM EST
    That they should have bigger tents and bigger halls to hold all the people who want to attend?

    The dual system, poll and caucus, has been in effect in Texas for twenty years. It is actually exciting to see so many people involved in the process.

    I presume that Clinton's lawyers' threats to somehow stop the caucuses wasn't done for safety concerns but rather because they believe that Clinton will lose those caucuses.

    If that happens then we have a Clinton campaign fighting to seat delegates from primaries ruled illegal by the Dems (after she had agreed not to have them counting), and blocking caucuses that have been happening for twenty years (because she was going to lose them). What next in the name of Clinton's campaign?

    My point is obvious (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:10:23 AM EST
    This system, caucuses, is a voter disenfranchising travesty.

    Having primaries AND caucuses and on the same day, is beyond a travesty.

    I take it you look forward to the impending chaos.

    Parent

    Is it exciting (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by SarahinCA on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:28:54 AM EST
    to see so many people NOT involved in the process?  Because that's what it sounds like the case will be.  The only people who will show back up at 7pm are people without kids, or, only one parent can come so the other can watch the kids, or, IMAGINE!  some people actually work at night!

    Bob, just because you love Obama doesn't mean you need to throw in the towel on the franchise.

    Parent

    Please be factual (none / 0) (#19)
    by Manuel on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:29:43 AM EST
    The Clinton campaign did not agree to not have MI anf FL count.  They agreed to not campaign there and they didn't.  The punishment for violating the rules was up to the DNC.  They chose the wrong punishment.  The issued a death penalty where a substantial fine would do.

    The DNC will need to fix the rules and the primary schedule.  This election cycle has exposed flaws in the system.  Surely we can all agree that the rules need to be fixed for next time.

    Parent

    challenging the rules of the caucus (none / 0) (#66)
    by wasabi on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:18:58 AM EST
    One of the concerns that the Clinton camp has is if the caucus location is too small, the caucus can be moved.  I would hope that there wouldn't be a problem with moving to a new location although that might be a problem for people who vote in their neighboorhood and walk to the polls, like me.  Will transportation be provided for all, or just some?

    Parent
    Caucus in TX (none / 0) (#11)
    by 1jane on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:19:00 AM EST
    In TX they can go to the polls between 7am to 7pm to vote. Then TX voters can sign into their caucus at 7pm. TX newspapers predict the participation on March 4th will blow the doors off!

    There are predictions and reports all over the internet that the Clinton campaign will challenge the caucus rules in TX.The Clinton campaign has been on record for days stating they may, indeed, challenge the rules. One blogger wrote about the Clinton campaign, "It's like the Clinton campaign knows its losing at half time, then they try to unplug the scoreboard."

    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:27:35 AM EST
    This is the comment I expected from you.

    Parent
    so in Texas (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by SarahinCA on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:30:08 AM EST
    no one works at night?  No one has kids that need to go to bed or sick parents to care for, or work or homework that's due the next day?  Must be a fancy place to live.

    Parent
    Halstoon and Obama mania (none / 0) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:36:39 AM EST
    You are suspended today.

    Do not comment until tomorrow. Your comment will be  deleted.

    I suspended you last night at 2:00 am (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:46:17 AM EST
    Not this comment.

    Come back tomorrow and follow the commenting rules.

    BTW, are you going to stick to one ID?

    First, I must (none / 0) (#44)
    by NJDem on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:50:12 AM EST
    concur that caucuses, and especially the system in TX, is/are an absolute travesty (and we're supposed to be spreading democracy around the world?, o.k.)

    Obviously we can't predict what will happen in TX.  But speaking generally, in a sociological (not prejudicial, and I hope BTD agrees with me) way, Latinos are, by and large, a very family/communal/group oriented people.  

    So this may help HRC (if she continues to win this demographic) in the caucuses because if one family member is planning on going, it will likely turn into a big group event where all friends and family go together.  
     

    I sure hope so :-) (none / 0) (#50)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:59:29 AM EST
    In defense of Texas Democratic Party (none / 0) (#92)
    by lobary on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 03:21:19 PM EST
    I think there's something inherently democratic about this caucus process in that it allows the average citizen the ability to participate in the delegate selection process. It provides an opportunity for anyone to become a delegate to the state and/or national convention. I think that's pretty cool myself.

    From the party rules:

    9. Balancing Delegations.

    (a) In selecting Delegates and Alternates at all levels, the Nominations Committee and the Convention itself shall make every effort to select persons so that the delegation as a whole shall reasonably reflect the political preferences (in non-presidential years) or the presidential preference (in presidential years) and the proportion of women, young people, and minorities present in the district or state.

    (b) At least one-third of the Delegates and onethird of the Alternates of any delegation elected at any level shall be of the sex opposite to that of the rest of the delegation.

    I think we should all acknowledge the good faith attempts by the Texas Democratic Party to make its delegation representative of its constituency.


    Parent

    You would have a point if (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 04:11:58 PM EST
    there were absentee ballots for the caucus.  Otherwise it disenfranchises some citizens who have obligations which keep them from the caucus.

    In fact, since the sign up is the caucus vote, why not accept such sign ups during absentee voting?  Assuming the voter is not running to be a delegate.


    Parent

    The Obama campaign (none / 0) (#47)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:56:18 AM EST
    has sent out slick color flyers they call the "Texas Two Step" where they tell their voters to sign in and leave.  It's that easy!  Well if they leave they will not be there to select their delegates and they will be screwed.

    I hate that! (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:58:12 AM EST
    That is disenfranchising. That is terrible.

    I assume that was a mistake but the effect is the same.

    this is just plain awful.

    Parent

    Further clarification? (none / 0) (#56)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:11:02 AM EST
    Do you know how the delegates counts from the precinct conventions will be announced?  That is that candidate A get xx while candidate B gets yy delegates.

    Will the announced numbers be based on delegates elected by the caucus or by the count on the sign in sheets?  The confusion could be bizarre.


    Parent

    The delegate count was (none / 0) (#72)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:25:42 AM EST
    determined on a precinct basis by dividing the number of votes Chris Bell got in the GE in the governor's race divided by 15.  They will be allocated by the candidate's proportion of the votes.

    Parent
    Actually I was wondering if the announced (none / 0) (#78)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:37:10 AM EST
    numbers would be based on the numbers from the sign in sheets or candidates delegates actually elected during the convention?  If lots of people sign in and leave, it sounds as if those numbers could be different?

    Parent
    It's about Bragging Rights (none / 0) (#80)
    by MsAmericanPie on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:55:42 AM EST
    I don't know about Texas, but in Washington State voters could sign in, but the delegates were only elected by the people who stayed.  Sounds like that's the same there.  So if the Obama campaign is really telling people that they can sign in and leave, it is because they don't care about the actual delegate selection but just want claim victory on election night based on the number of people who showed up.

    Parent
    That's my concern (none / 0) (#82)
    by RalphB on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 12:25:58 PM EST
    that bragging rights are used to mislead.


    Parent
    They're determined proportionally, (none / 0) (#89)
    by lobary on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 02:47:59 PM EST
    They use the stated preferences listed on the sign-in sheets to determine each candidates' respective numbers. Regardless of whether an individual participant stays or goes, their stated preference on the attendance sheet WILL COUNT in the final tally.

    Example: I live in a very, very blue precinct in Austin. Because of huge support for Chris Bell in the last gubernatorial election, my precinct has the third-most delegates in Travis County (87).   So, let's say four hundred people sign in at the precinct convention that night. Let's say Obama gets 250 signatures and Clinton gets 150. Obama would be entitled to 62.5% of the delegate count whereas Clinton would get 37.5%.

    So:

    87 x .625 = 54 Obama delegates to send to the county convention.

    87 x .375 = 33 Clinton delegates to send to the county convention.

    The only reason a voter would need to stay is if that voter wants to actually be elected as a delegate to the county convention. The math is unchanged whether they stay or leave.

    Parent

    Any provisional ballots? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:00:21 AM EST
    What then?

    If you vote on a Provisional Ballot (none / 0) (#54)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:04:39 AM EST
    you can caucus.  How they are gonna kick those votes out if the provisional is thrown out is a mystery.

    Parent
    Wonderful (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:08:43 AM EST
    This Texas system seems set up to (none / 0) (#57)
    by kenosharick on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:12:57 AM EST
    give barack a backup plan if he were to lose the primary vote. The MSM will declare him the winner no matter what happens.

    The Texas system existed before (none / 0) (#77)
    by ivs814 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:31:02 AM EST
    anyone knew who Barack was.

    Parent
    I said "seems" (none / 0) (#96)
    by kenosharick on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 04:20:23 PM EST
    I am not stupid.

    Parent
    I just read the rules... (none / 0) (#81)
    by p lukasiak on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:59:50 AM EST
    ...and they all seem to say different things.

    Now I understand why the Clinton camp was so upset --- the rules are not merely confusing, but contradictory.   I would strongly suggest that anyone who attends the caucus print out at least pages 22-26 of the Official Rules of the Democratic Party of Texas that currently appear on the state party website, familiarize yourself with them, and bring them with you to the caucus.  Since these are the official rules of the party, they should be the determining factor in how the caucuses are handled.

    Under those rules....

    1. the meeting is called to order at 7:15 (or when the last voter has voted at the precinct, whichever is later) by the temporary chair.

    2. The "temporary roll" is prepared where people enter in their names, addresses and presidential perferences.  

    3. A Permanent Chair, Secretary (and any other 'necessary officials') are elected.

    4. The election of Delegates to the county convention is announced.

    Note that LATE ARRIVALS are allowed to fully participate up until the time that the "election of delegates" is announced (i.e. right through the election of officers for the caucus -- these late arrivals MUST BE included in determining the breakdown of delegates to the county convention.  Individuals arriving AFTER the "election of delegates" have been announced are not considered when determing the allocation of delegates to each candidate, but can participate in the election of the delegates themselves within their candidate group.

    [page 22]  Rule 6 B
    ....Persons arriving
    after the list of participants is completed
    and who are otherwise qualified to participate
    shall have their names entered on
    the list and may participate in proceedings
    subsequent to their arrival
    . Such persons,
    however, may not vote on matters previously
    voted upon or on which a vote has
    been called for by the Chair. Their political
    preference shall not cause a change in the
    proportional allocation of Delegates if the
    same has been announced at the time calling
    for the election of Delegates
    and Alternates
    in the Order of Business prescribed
    by the Rules.

    [page 23] rule 10 Election Procedure in Presidential Years.
    In presidential years, as all qualified participants
    enter their names, residence addresses,
    and cities or towns upon the Temporary Roll
    of the Convention, they also shall indicate their
    presidential preference or uncommitted status.
    When it is time in the Order of Business to
    elect Delegates and Alternates to the County or
    Senatorial District Convention, the procedure shall be as follows:
    (a) The Convention Chair shall announce the
    number of eligible voting members on the
    roll, the number of Delegates and Alternates
    the Convention is entitled to elect, and the
    number and percent of each presidential
    preference or uncommitted status reflected
    on the roll.
    (b) On the basis of such determination, those
    preferring each presidential candidate and
    those who are uncommitted shall caucus
    separately to elect the same proportion of
    County or Senatorial District Convention
    Delegates and Alternates as their group
    represents at the Precinct Convention.



    No travesty in Texas (none / 0) (#99)
    by B on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:15:30 PM EST
    The primaries nationwide are a mess because of the intellectual and moral sloth of Howard Dean, the DNC, the Clintons, Barack Obama, John Edwards, and dwarf also rans who demonstrated zero leadership in reforming the primary process. As a registered voter in Texas, I have had little difficulty navigating the caucus system and have been elected a state convention delegate, which is a far as I wanted to go. I am more concerned that the Texas Democrat Party fails to field and support legitimate congressional candidates in the Dallas and Ft. Worth area. The Republican incumbents are low ranking hacks who don't even bother to claim to have ever thought or acted independently of the president and the house Republican leadership.