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Breaking the Obama Fever

The Washington Post reports Obama Fever may be breaking. A rash of new Internet sites have cropped up which the Post says, show "Obamamania may be hitting a wall."

It's the nature of the Web -- and, really, of life. What goes up must come down. What's popular becomes too popular. What's seen as hip and hot and cool eventually gets mocked. Even, yes, Barack Obama.

Two of the sites named by the Post:

Some of the sites, like the Bicycle site, are by Obama supporters.

More...

On another Obama note, earlier we wrote about Obama's criticism of the 527 PAC putting out ads for Hillary in Ohio. The New York Times reports a 527 PAC from California, PowerPac, has sent out $150k of mailers for Obama in Texas. But, of course, it's different.

For Mr. Obama, the Powerpac.org effort is a bit awkward. His denunciations of special interest money have been a campaign centerpiece and the Obama campaign has asked Powerpac.Org and a sister organization, Vote Hope, to stop their activities on his behalf. But the campaign’s pleas have come to no avail.

Update: On Obama's Wisconsin win, MSNBC reports Obama outspent Hillary on ads 5 to 1:

Obama spent more than $1.5 million; Clinton spent $300,000. That, folks, is quite a gap.
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  • Display: Sort:
    Is the fever breaking? (5.00 / 9) (#3)
    by echinopsia on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:43:36 AM EST
    Dog, I hope so.

    He's a trend, a brand, a product. He took a chance that he'd stay trendy long enough and that people would not examine him closely, and so far, he's been lucky. It didn't hurt that his opponent has been demonized beyond all recognition. Forget her lifelong service to human rights, women and children - all that matters is one senate vote that he wasn't even there to make.

    It couldn't last. I just hope the fever breaks in time to not hand the most powerful position in the world to this amorphous greenhorn.

    That's been a main complaint of mine (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by annabelly on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 03:14:03 AM EST
    Since I've gotten to know him better after his 2004 convention speech, which did knock me on my heels for a while. Very powerful stuff. But, I began to notice and have been discussing Obama's marketed self-image and campaign, and how I distrust it for over a year now. Rock star to a bunch DFH is as much as a glass jaw in the GE as Clinton's so-called inevitability tactic (I don't think it was a tactic at all, I think it was a media set up) has been in the primary.  

    [ Parent ]
    I found the revelation that Obama's environmental (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by rhbrandon on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:32:34 AM EST
    voting record was a mediocre (for a Democrat) 67% eyebrow-raising. One only gets that relatively bad a rating by some serious DLC-esque triangulation. Clinton at least stayed in the 70s: so much for the environmental screeds against her on DOba from New York Obama-bots before the New York primary.

    He's just a Chicago pol and an inexperienced one at that; not the fulfillment of our our dreams.

    [ Parent ]

    Not positive... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by LittleMac on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:44:30 AM EST
    ...but I'm fairly certain that both Clinton and Obama's scores are only that low because they missed votes on account of campaigning. I think we can safely say that neither of the Democratic candidates are opposed to the environment.

    John McCain got a 0%. Again, not because he hates the environment that much, but because he missed every single important environmental vote for campaigning purposes (or more likely, because he lacked the political courage to take a stand on things that might put him at odds either with the conservative base or the independents he usually courts.)

    [ Parent ]

    Consider the example of Russ Feingold, (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by rhbrandon on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:56:01 AM EST
    a real progressive. According to the League of Conservation Voters, he comes in at 93%, 26 points ahead of Obama.

    Obama's no progressive, despite his supporters' claims.

    [ Parent ]

    Clinton and Obama's scores are (none / 0) (#84)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:09:03 AM EST
    identical or near identical on almost every score of Senatorial voting records. So I suppose you don't think Clinton is a progressive then either?

    Frankly, I think their positions are nearly indistinguishable and that efforts to say that one or the other is the real progressive is not productive.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't find either of them terribly progressive (none / 0) (#116)
    by spit on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:07:12 PM EST
    but I do find that one of them consistently uses rhetoric that IMO undermines core progressive causes.

    Every time I start feeling better about Obama, which I'm dying to do, he pulls out a Harry and Louise redux ad or makes it sound like maybe there is something reasonable to consider about school vouchers.

    [ Parent ]

    He's doing Harry and Louise mailings again (none / 0) (#118)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:22:20 PM EST
    in Ohio, misrepresenting Clinton's health care plan, as well as the mailer excoriating those excesses of the '90s under our only two-term Dem presidency in more than half a century.  And Hillary Clinton is calling him out on these mailers, at last -- stories on CNN, Google news, etc.  

    Of course, media are saying that she is "attacking" and "going negative" -- when it is against Obama's too-typical attacks.

    [ Parent ]

    Now I've seen it (none / 0) (#132)
    by spit on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 03:11:37 PM EST
    seems I was psychically connecting with a few of her comments, actually.

    Don't know whether it'll be wise in the campaign sense, but she's absolutely correct IMO.

    The media is out of its mind. She's "attacking" attack ads.

    [ Parent ]

    The Russ Feingold Who Voted Obama? (none / 0) (#96)
    by LittleMac on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:36:15 AM EST
    But again, I'm pretty sure BOTH Clinton and Obama's scores are low because of the 15 (or so) major votes the League of Conservation Voters used to determine the candidate's scores, they had missed several due to campaigning. This isn't an Obama supporting thing, it's a defense of both Clinton and Obama from a misleading use of statistics.

    [ Parent ]
    Morning wake-up thought was Hillary has to stay (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by jawbone on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:09:44 AM EST
    in the race through to the end--just in case the voters come to realize what they thought they wanted is not actually what they thought he was.

    Insurance against a flame out.

    C'mon, Texans--vote Hillary!

    Our MCM (mainstream corporate media) has once again not served the public and voters well--too much prattle about silly thing, too much horse race, and way, way too little about issues, proposals, and past history.

    The MCM thinks it can choose our candidates and then our president for us. So far, they've been doing very well and have been meeting their goals.

    What's it going to take to get better reporting?

    [ Parent ]

    That is an excellent point. (none / 0) (#117)
    by MarkL on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:18:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I just read a post on Open Left (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:20:32 AM EST
    explaining why the poster voted for Obama.  One reason:  Chelsea Clinton works for a hedge fund.  What a rationale.

    clearly that poster doesn't know (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by hellothere on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:03:27 AM EST
    what michelle did for the hospital district where she worked.

    [ Parent ]
    What did she do? (none / 0) (#111)
    by derridog on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:53:25 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    why don't you go and find out! (none / 0) (#133)
    by hellothere on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:39:05 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Let me guess... (none / 0) (#19)
    by Shawn on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:22:42 AM EST
    Stoller?

    [ Parent ]
    Hey. You're good. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:28:47 AM EST
    Lots of talk about HRC's "strident" talk about the Super Ds and why doesn't she just go away.  Nice.

    [ Parent ]
    there are some here (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:12:52 AM EST
    who base their Hillary-hatred on some law she supported to put ratings on video games.

    I am all for one-issue voters, but this issue?

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, but the call it "censorship", (none / 0) (#67)
    by Practically Lactating on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:19:12 AM EST
    which in my view, is entirely different than ratings.  

    [ Parent ]
    Not just video games (none / 0) (#85)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:10:26 AM EST
    also support for the Flag-burning amendment and her position on media consolidation (she's generally sympathetic to big media).

    Those are not encouraging signs if you're big issue is freedom of speech.

    [ Parent ]

    andrewwwm (none / 0) (#124)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:35:48 PM EST
    your flag burning issue was addressed in another thread, and I believe it was you who brought it up at that time, too.  Unless it was adrewww without the m?  At any rate, you need to investigate your "amendment" charge because you are factually wrong.

    I would provide you the links, but frankly, I am tired of providing links when people continue to ignore facts and post misrepresentations.  I am taking my ninth grade teacher's view when students would ask her the meaning of a word:

    "Look it up yourself."

    [ Parent ]

    Pointless Article (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Seneca on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:40:29 AM EST
    This is not actual new, but just spin - and wishful thinking - from the 24-hour spin zone.

    A dose of truth-telling. Obama's candidacy is not a "fever," or a "mania." Yes, he is very popular and his supporters are very fervent. But I daresay that the preponderance of his supporters back him for what they consider solid, valid reasons. His past accomplishments and future plans are very real.

    People have been predicting the ebb of this wave ever since last October. Every month or so, some hack at a newspaper with nothing to say decides to write an article saying "Has his popularity peaked?!" Folks, this ain't no fad. This is a movement; Barack is going to define and lead the Democratic party for the next eight years.

    Obama has said (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:51:37 AM EST
    People need to be inspired before they'll unite behind real change.

    It's almost as if a mere explanation of why it's right in clear rational terms would be insufficient.


    [ Parent ]

    For myself (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by kenoshaMarge on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:41:55 AM EST
    don't want to be inspired, I want to be convinced. And I'm not. Quite the contrary.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't think this is just a 'movement' (none / 0) (#39)
    by MichaelGale on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:24:23 AM EST
    I believe that a large number of Obama supporters  have read and researched his policies and are also moved by his oratory.

    On the other hand, I also think that the majority are mesmerized and are easily lead... they are followers. When you read about the experience that people have when seeing or hearing Obama, you hear about what happens to their body, their senses, their mind. They state their shared interest is "change" but that is pretty ambiguous.

    Add to that, the inability to hear, or tolerate any criticism of, or question any policy, or request any information about him is irrational.

    There is little discussion or process about electing a president. Those that attempt to do so are being caged and vilified.

    I think it is wrong to elect a president, particularly now, in this environment.

    [ Parent ]

    In my circle (4.25 / 4) (#49)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:05:57 AM EST
    I have not run into one Obama supporter who even knows the details of his positions, or Clinton's. They just repeat Obama campaign line about "its time for change," "I don't want a dynasty," "Clinton can't win."

    When I engage in conversation they really are kind of like those people on TV asked about Sen Obama's accomplishment, they just go quite and say, well, he is charismatic.

    And these are smart people who I used to respect and discuss politics intelligently in the past.

    So I am not sure the majority of Obama supporters are deeply rooted in his policies.

    [ Parent ]

    Well... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by LittleMac on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:52:52 AM EST
    I've read plenty of Obama supporters who know about his various positions/legislative accomplishments/etc. And plenty of Clinton supporters who know the same about her.

    And I've seen some who don't know anything about both candidates. But really, if "some of this politician's supporters don't know the details of that politician's platform" is a reasonable argument against that politician, no one is ever going to be elected to any office again.

    [ Parent ]

    Wasn't my point (3.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:37:17 AM EST
    I was addressing the basic premise of this entry, that a lot of people seem to be drawn to Obama by the bandwagon effect, and not from actual positions. This kind of support MAY collapse, which would be very bad if he does indeed clinch the nomination.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by LittleMac on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:40:55 AM EST
    ...that his support could collapse between now and the election. But the same could be said of all three of the remaining major candidates.

    It's not as though Clinton or McCain lack for political celebrity, or as if their political celebrity doesn't lead to some degree of bandwagon effect (I mean, McCain is the ultimate bandwagon effect, since his own base is only starting to support him now that he's their only option).

    [ Parent ]

    I think Sen McCain's problem (none / 0) (#99)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:43:36 AM EST
    Is more because he did stick to his guns the base doesn't like him very much (how dare he vote how he believes! he should have towed the party line!)

    Sen Obamas support is because he is saying the popular things (imo), like "I was against the war." Sen McCain has taken unpopular positions and has been hurt.

    Now this could work against him, or against a candidate whose popularity is collapsing it could work to paint him as "authentic" and he could grab a lot of independents.

    [ Parent ]

    I think we agree more than we disagree... (none / 0) (#104)
    by LittleMac on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:13:57 PM EST
    Though I'd debate the idea that McCain is particularly principled (his entire political persona is based on bucking "special interests" and his campaign manager does lobbying work from a phone on the Straight Talk Express).

    I think the point that Obama says popular things about the war is going to be a strength in the general. When one guy says "I opposed the war you all hate now from the start and I'll move to end it" and the other guy says "I support this war, will continue it forever, and will also give you more wars. Don't worry though, I also don't care about the economy," I think we can safely bet on the independents lining up behind the first guy.

    Then again, I also think Clinton could ultimately beat McCain for similar reasons, although her ability to argue the war will be blunted by McCain replying to every challenge from her by saying "We both voted for this war, and the big difference is I want to win it."

    [ Parent ]

    McCain stuck to his guns? (none / 0) (#105)
    by AF on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:20:59 PM EST
    On what?  Abortion? Bush's tax cuts?  Immigration?

    This myth about John McCain as a man of principle has got to be put to rest.  

    [ Parent ]

    Obamania is a fad (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by myiq2xu on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 04:05:04 AM EST
    Although it's fairly unusual in American politics, Obama has been the latest fad sweeping the nation.

    Usually it's a musician or band that gets this kind of attention.  Beatlemania, Madonna, New Kids on the Block, the Spice Girls, all became incredibly popular virtually overnight.

    The Beatles and Madonna were talented and never faded away, even though their initial popularity receded somewhat.  The Spice Girls and the New Kids OTOH . . .

    Will Obama be more than a one-hit wonder?  He has talent, but only time will tell.

    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by robrecht on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:03:28 AM EST
    That 'Is Barack Obama the Messiah' site is hillarious.

    I loved the picture with the Messianic light (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:16:34 AM EST
    around the kleenex he was using to blow his nose.  

    Broke out in uproarious laughter.

    [ Parent ]

    About Wisconsin spending (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:29:43 AM EST
    In case anyone is wonder, using the CNN Wisconsin vote count:

    Obama spent $2.32 per vote.
    Clinton spent 66 cents per vote.

    Someone mentioned on MSNBC comments that they wondered if any of Obama's bazillion newspaper endorsements had anything to do with all the money he spends....the world will never know.

    About Wisconsin votes period (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by kenoshaMarge on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:39:09 AM EST
    The Rightwingers on-line and on-air in Wisconsin are taking victory laps and gloating about how they voted for Obama and beat the "B" Clinton. Do you think for one moment that these same people are going to vote for him in a general election?

    [ Parent ]
    Absolutely not (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:44:44 AM EST
    Very much agreed.

    [ Parent ]
    Clinton outdrew Kerry by far (none / 0) (#93)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:27:12 AM EST
    in Wisconsin votes, with more than 450,000 votes this week vs. about 325,000 votes in 2004 -- and with not that much difference in turnout overall, in a state with traditionally high turnout.

    Clinton actually got far more votes than the second- and third-place finishers combined in 2004, Edwards and Dean.  Clinton got more votes this time than ALL of the GOP votes combined.  

    More evidence of the massive crossover vote in Wisconsin, where the conservative blogs are chortling at the dumb Dems with so little historical understanding of what has happened before in our open primary -- see George Wallace doing so well in 1964, right after Wisconsin sent JFK on his way to the White House in 1960.

    And that Dems would be so worried about results in in a state with so few delegate votes compared to Ohio and/or Texas is cause for much of the chortling.  Speaking of Ohio, it has not an open but a "semi-open" primary, much less prone to crossover with its party ballots, voter registration rules discouraging students, etc.

    [ Parent ]

    BTW (none / 0) (#57)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:22:30 AM EST
    I am the typo queen (wonder=wonderING).

    [ Parent ]
    messiah (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by eric on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:20:46 AM EST
    That messiah site is creepy.

    Also, is it just me or is the official Obama campaign logo really strange in a religious sort of way?  With the O with a sort of light in the distance, it has a bit of a Eastern religion feel to it.  Kind of like an Enso with divine light.

    It is spooky, (none / 0) (#70)
    by RalphB on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:33:43 AM EST
    but it's the fake messiah himself who creeps me out.

    [ Parent ]
    Wow I can't believe how offensive you are being (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:40:53 AM EST
    Whatever your view point, whoever you support, have you found that being this egregiously offensive has worked out well in your personal life? Or is this a trait you reserve only for posting on the internet.

    You do realize this is not a "sporting" event, right? That this is serious business?

    For Sen Obamas sake I hope you are in no way a reflection of his "movement."

    Honestly I have not seen many virulent anti-Obama (2.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:21:16 AM EST
    Comments here, and that is why I love this site. When there are occasional trolls or candidate-partisans they are removed. Almost everyone here (imo) argues intelligently about what they believe.

    Don't take this the wrong way, but I get the sense that you read any disagreement with your view (pro-Obama) as bashing. For example I for one don't have any issue with Sen Obama, except the following:

    1. He is not experienced enough for me,
    2. He seems to be dividing the Democratic party for his own win (a tactic, but one I don't like),
    3. He is injecting too much religious symbolism, language and tactics into his run. This is not an anti-religion issue, but I am a very strict believer of separation of religion and politics,
    4. He is using the Iraq war vote, when he would have probably voted the same way if he was actually in a position to have to take a stand that would have effected his political career.

    Are these virulent comments?

    Consider that you may be reacting a little too much to people whose opinions differ from yours. And a little bit of the language you use suggests that you may have jumped on the bandwagon a little too hard. It is always a good feeling to be on the winning side. Right now you appear to be backing the winning candidate. But keep in mind that your "opponents" are people who actually share your views, and that the "enemy," Sen Clinton, also shares the same views. And she is a very accomplished and impressive individual, not "the enemy."

    Heck, I am a democrat, I am used to being on the losing side! :)

    [ Parent ]

    Obama=political Macarena (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by frankly0 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:47:54 AM EST
    I predict that in some not distant day people are going to be as embarrassed about the excesses in their support of Obama as they are now about ever having danced the Macarena.

    Once upon a time, the Macarena seemed like just the coolest thing that everybody did. Now no one will own up to any knowledge of it.

    Yes (none / 0) (#88)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:13:51 AM EST
    because comparing a grass-roots movement is very similar to a dance fad.

    [ Parent ]
    Some of us (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:25:12 AM EST
    Don't really see this as a grass roots movement. Honestly. Its not meant as a dig. If I saw it as a true grass roots movements I would be very happy to support it. I see it as a very cleverly crafted political run/marketing campaign. It is tapping into the idealistic belief that we should have a better government, with individuals who are good enough to put the good of the country ahead of their own self interest or part interest. This is a great ideal. But it is not political reality.

    Can you tell me what I am missing about this "grass roots" movement? I am not asking for the talking points, but enlightenment. What is this grass roots movement about? What will change dramatically if Sen Obama was the president vs Sen Clinton? And how would this happen?

    [ Parent ]

    madness of crowds is (none / 0) (#113)
    by frankly0 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:56:53 PM EST
    madness of crowds.

    Maybe you'd be more comfortable if I called Obama a tulip?

    He does seem to require very special treatment.

    [ Parent ]

    And people wonder why some (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:12:36 AM EST
    Liken Obama support to a cult?

    If Obama doesn't speak out against this kind of thing....well, I won't be able to separate the man from his supporters anymore....if I ever did...

    Truly disappointing (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by CodeNameLoonie on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:20:14 AM EST
    The novelty of Obama "fever" wearing off is not only no longer a novelty, it is at this point irrelevant.

    Obamamania vs the Clinton machine? Shiny objects both. Self-serving media inventions doomed to crash against more media inventions.

    Someone please explain how promoting these mealy-mouthed metaphors advances any issue worth discussing.

    Vitriol for its own sake is not worthy. Enabling it is politically retrograde.

    If you tried just a wee bit harder (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by kenoshaMarge on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:09:01 PM EST
    you could probably be a little more condescending and arrogant. Then again maybe you could try for sanctimonious too.

    This is really getting absurd (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by fuzzyone on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:05:28 PM EST
    The idea that every supporter of Obama is some moronic zombie while every supporter of Hillary is seeped in policy (I'm sure there are no women supporting her who know nothing about her policies just because she is a woman).  And please spare me what the people you know say.  Anecdotes mean nothing to me.

    Silly websites are not evidence of anything other than people with too much time on their hands.

    Obviously Hillary's supporters are furious that Obama is a better speaker than she is, that he has built a more effective grass roots organization, and that he is winning.  But insulting the half of the party that supports him is just as bad as insulting all the unimportant states that voted for him.  Complain all you want about the media but if she can't overcome that problem now she can't overcome it in the general either.

    And the Times story said several things.  It said that Obama spent more money, which he was able to do because he had more money.  He had more money because he has done a better job of fund raising, in part because he focused on more small donors while Hillary focused on fewer, richer ones who are now capped out.  The article also pointed out that Obama's ads were more on message and less negative while Hillary gropes for a message.

    Obama is simply running a better campaign than Hillary.  

    Another Times article pointed up another mistake that Hillary has made.  She trumpets her support for health care mandates, but does no say how she would enforce them, making it just noise.  Her call for mandates does put a huge target on her back for republicans.  Obama, says he would give some very small number of people the choice not to get insurance, but would also have some kind of consequence if they then came in for care.  There is little or no substantive difference given that Hillary does not say how she would support mandates, but politically Obama is much better positioned for the general.

    15 million uninsured is not a small number (none / 0) (#119)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:24:06 PM EST
    and do you understand that, without mandates, we will still be paying so much more for their health care than with truly UHC?  Economic estimates are that her plan costs us $2700 annually (less than I am paying for coverage now) while his costs us $4400 annually.

    [ Parent ]
    You miss the point (none / 0) (#122)
    by fuzzyone on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:33:43 PM EST
    Hillary has not explained how her mandates would be enforced. Until she explains it is a promise with no reality and a bullseye for Republicans.  Fake policy and bad politics.  (And please provide a link to your economic estimates.)

    [ Parent ]
    Obama has not explained (none / 0) (#128)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:40:21 PM EST
    how HIS mandates on families with children will be enforced.  He made some noises about it at the last debate, but of course no one pressed him on it and he hasn't since clarified.

    Clinton said there might have to be a garnishment of wages.  Obama seems to think that families can "hope" away their financial obligations.

    Universal healthcare should be like social security: mandatory.  We all have to pay.

    [ Parent ]

    A sobering comparison... (none / 0) (#120)
    by frankly0 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:30:31 PM EST
    Talking about being hyped by the media (from Wikipedia):

    The media discovered and promoted Carter. As Lawrence Shoup noted in his 1980 book The Carter Presidency and Beyond:
    "What Carter had that his opponents did not was the acceptance and support of elite sectors of the mass communications media. It was their favorable coverage of Carter and his campaign that gave him an edge, propelling him rocket-like to the top of the opinion polls. This helped Carter win key primary election victories, enabling him to rise from an obscure public figure to President-elect in the short space of 9 months."

    At least we know that the whole Presidency thing with Carter worked out just great, so we don't have to worry about Obama. All Democrats running for office have pointed with pride to Carter's term as a shining example to the American people of what the Democratic Party represents and can accomplish.

    [ Parent ]

    Or you could compare Obama to other inspirational (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by fuzzyone on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:35:39 PM EST
    figures like FDR, but I guess that would not fit your bias.  You could also say Hillary is like Carter, both uninspiring policy wonks.  Its all just nonsense.

    [ Parent ]
    Who knows (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by frankly0 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:40:25 PM EST
    where lurks Obama's killer rabbit?

    [ Parent ]
    Why not JFK? (none / 0) (#126)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:38:51 PM EST
    That seems to be Obama's favorite comparison.  It falls short for the same reason the FDR one does: lack of experience.

    [ Parent ]
    My point is simple (none / 0) (#127)
    by frankly0 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:39:20 PM EST
    Being able to ride a wave of public enthusiasm, driven by a media demonstrably biased toward your side, means, unto itself, zippo in terms of actual performance.

    Jimmy Carter would be exhibit A.

    [ Parent ]

    Am I the only one alarmed when (4.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:39:15 AM EST
    Obama supporters use Jesus and the religious movement when making their case for the Great and Mighty O?

    Next, we'll be hearing about "wonder working power."

    Interesting Gallup poll yesterday shows (none / 0) (#89)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:17:37 AM EST
    that churchgoers are far more likely to support Clinton than Obama.  It's probably a difference in forms of worship -- differences reaching back centuries to the more inner-directed first Great Awakening and the outer-directed Second Great Awakening with the religiosity of "witnessing."

    Speaking, as this thread does, of awakenings. . . .

    [ Parent ]

    you ask (none / 0) (#109)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:46:19 PM EST
    why is addressing things in religious terms so wrong?

    Because many of us are uncomfortable with religion creeping into our government. It's called separation of church and state. The idea that because Repubs do it we should do it too rather than attack it makes me shake my head in wonderment.

    I do not want a faith-based government and will do everything I can to advocate against a candidate who panders to one.

    [ Parent ]

    Dahlia Lithwick (3.00 / 1) (#112)
    by AF on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:55:56 PM EST
    has said all that needs to be said on Obama fatigue.  

    I know it's kind of lame to break up with you on Valentine's Day. And on the Internet to boot. But it's also kind of ironic. And that's what I need to tell you. As an ironic, contrarian, so-hip-it-hurts Gen X-er, I just can't love you anymore. I can't like you because ... because, well, everyone else does. And suddenly supporting you just seems soooo last week.

    Read the whole thing.

    I'm not sure your advice (none / 0) (#125)
    by Chino Blanco on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:38:36 PM EST
    to read the whole thing will have the intended outcome, considering that piece was satire and all.

    [ Parent ]
    I realize it's satire (none / 0) (#131)
    by AF on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:23:54 PM EST
    The point of the article, and my point as well, is that Obama fever and Obama fatigue are silly topics, having nothing to with the merits of Obama's candidacy.

    [ Parent ]
    The 527 issue is ridiculous (none / 0) (#1)
    by s5 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:32:21 AM EST
    no matter who is arguing it. I've never been moved by the idea that private individuals shouldn't be allowed to spend money to voice the political opinion of their choosing. As long as the campaigns aren't involved (and really not involved, not just "wink wink we're not involved"), then I don't see a problem.

    As a disclosure, some of the people who work for Vote Hope are friends of mine, and I know their motivations are good. In other words, it's not a grotesque "swift boat" type of thing. The most outrageous thing they've done to date is try to get younger decline-to-state voters out to the polls. Scary stuff, I'm telling you.

    it's not an issue of (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:07:57 AM EST
    who gets to pick the good ones and bad ones.  And I promise you I am not trying to be stroppy with you on this--or with your friends.  All PACs think they are doing good work.  C.U.N--you know the rest--undoubtedly thinks they are protecting America from the worst catastrophe ever.  

    I really want to explain to you why this bothers me, because I don't think the case has been made clear.  It's not that Obama is being supported by a "good" or a "bad" PAC, it's that he says all PACs are wrong, and his supporters say all PACs are wrong...except for the "good" ones that are really energetic about getting Obama elected.  If Obama really wanted to stop his PACs, he could, but they are working really well for him, so he's not.  To me, that's hypocritical.  Now, is it bad?  Well--it's politics; but his campaign is all about his judgment and his character, and changing the landscape of American political campaigns, and here he is doing the EXACT SAME THING he says is bad.  It goes back to the plagiarism thing.  If your sole campaign is based on the issue of your good character and good judgment, then you should be scrutinized on points that relate to these characteristics.

    I liken this to my view on hate crimes legislation.  In my opinion it is highly unconstitutional to penalize someone for what they were thinking when a crime was committed; however, because it punishes people who attack minorities and gays, I'm not shouting too loudly to get the statutes removed.  I feel the law benefits me, and while it is, in my opinion, unjust, I'm not going to rally at the capitol to stop it.

    Do you see what I mean?

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe you could pick another example (none / 0) (#137)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:28:42 AM EST
    I strongly oppose hate crime laws that trump the punishment for a crime based on what a defendant is thinking. It's not like we don't already have laws on the books with draconian sentences for murder, mutilation, kidnapping, rape, assault, etc.

    Every state has aggravating factors in sentencing that let the judge increase the already draconian sentence based on  things like the brutality of the crime,and the nature and extent of injuries, the length of the attack, etc. There is no need to also add time because of what the perp might have been thinking or why he picked that particular person.

    There are civil remedies to go after the perp for in cases where the penalty might not be as high as the victim wants it to be.

    So, please, go down and rally. They start out and say 40 years. In my mind that's too high. I look at the DA and say with a straight face , How about 30 years and cancer ,would you take that? You can see them weighing it, as if they might agree before it dawns on them that of course they can't, it's a joke at how high these nubmers have gottn. They toss the years around like they're cookies.

    Punish  for the crime and any injuries that resulted. Leave the imind alone.

    Sorry for the rant, but I feel pretty storngly against hate crime laws for my clients.

    [ Parent ]

    If it breaks, it breaks, but this is a bitter pill (none / 0) (#2)
    by Chino Blanco on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:32:39 AM EST
    If you think you've got the antidote for Obama Fever, go ahead and dispense it, but please don't go around passing out poison pills and calling it a cure:

    http://blog.hillaryclinton.com/blog/main/2008/02/22/143137

    In Case You Missed It: "Obama once visited '60s `terrorists'."

    We are all Democrats.  Hillary needs to let Wolfson know that this kind of crap is a deal-breaker.

    this site has not written about that (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:52:47 AM EST
    or called attention to it. I wish you wouldn't either. It's a baseless attack on Obama.  

    This site supports granting pardons and the rights of ex-offenders to engage in the political process. There's nothing wrong with a politician accepting donations from or fraternizing with someone with a criminal record.

    [ Parent ]

    It's best to get things in the open. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by myiq2xu on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 04:17:52 AM EST
    Even if we don't talk about these things, the other side will.  

    My mom is 74 and a life-long Democrat.  She's fairly liberal, but she goes to church with some very conservative types.  She keeps her mouth shut about politics at church, but she says she's always hearing from her Sunday school group about how Obama is a muslim and similar crap.

    The best cure for lies isn't silence, it's the truth.  Avoiding the subject just makes it look like Obama has something to hide.

    That doesn't mean that every scandalous rumor should be treated like news though.

    [ Parent ]

    But you do have to talk about it (none / 0) (#6)
    by kid oakland on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:58:53 AM EST
    if Howard Wolfson, the face of the Clinton campaign blogs about it on Senator Clinton's own blog.

    If I, with many others, can get Ben Smith and Politico to change that noxious headline...why can't Clinton's online supporters get Wolfson to change probably the vilest reference one Democrat has posted about another Democrat on their official website this entire campaign?

    It's not enough to "not print the story"...you should be getting Wolfson to take that off Senator Clinton's blog.

    [ Parent ]

    Neither I nor this site (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:06:34 AM EST
    have any connection to Hillary Clinton's campaign. I wouldn't know Wolfson or Penn if I found them in my soup. I don't think I've ever seen either.

    I have no obligation to write about something that is on their site, their blog or that they say on tv. I write about what interests me.

    [ Parent ]

    I would argue, respectfully (4.00 / 1) (#10)
    by kid oakland on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:12:40 AM EST
    that Howard Wolfson writing about:

    In Case You Missed It: "Obama once visited '60s `terrorists'." Read more

    Should be of interest to anyone who supports Senator Clinton and has cited post after post here from Taylor Marsh.

    That's not trivial. That's not an issue that can be brushed away.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:18:50 AM EST
    It's not going to happen. Please drop it.

    [ Parent ]
    who are you to tell this blog what to do? (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by diplomatic on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 04:01:42 AM EST
    People can blog about whatever they want.  You can and should start your own blog, btw.  Then you don't have to rely on others to set the record straight.

    [ Parent ]
    Mea Culpa (none / 0) (#23)
    by Chino Blanco on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:38:57 AM EST
    I didn't mean to suggest that TL was propagating this smear, but upon re-reading my own comment, I can see that your objection is well-founded.  My apologies.

    [ Parent ]
    I wrote to Ben Smith (none / 0) (#4)
    by kid oakland on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:51:23 AM EST
    and asked why that title? What good did it serve? How did it reflect the facts as represented in his story?

    It didn't.

    And we exchanged a couple emails about it. I'm sure I wasn't the only person who wrote in to register that concern.

    The title of that story on Politico now reads different from what Wolfson posted on Clinton's blog and has for 18 hours now. There is currently no longer a reference on Politico to "terrorism" in the title of that piece. But Senator Clinton hasn't changed her website all day. You click on Howard Wolfson's "read more" link and Ben Smith has changed the title to "Obama once visited '60s radicals."

    There's no indication of this change on Senator Clinton's website.

    That is a deal breaker. If Ben Smith and Politico can correct the title of an already flawed story with poor sourcing, certainly Senator Clinton can pull her reference to a flawed and rescinded title that no longer actually exists at the link she send her readers to. That's the least she owes a fellow Democrat and her supporters.

    Right?

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Shawn on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:11:20 AM EST
    I'm sure when Hillary logs in to her site this morning, she'll change that reference.

    Is it any worse than Axelrod blaming Clinton for Bhutto's death?

    [ Parent ]

    kid oakland, let me ask you a question. (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by hellothere on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:58:51 AM EST
    did you stand up when hillary was being attacked as a woman by obama? did you stand up when the false allegations that she and bill used racist remarks by the obama campaign? inquiring minds want to know! or do you complain just when it is obama you think isn't treated fairly?

    [ Parent ]
    Your link shows no such thing (none / 0) (#13)
    by kid oakland on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:17:50 AM EST
    my link shows exactly what my blockquotes indicate:

    In Case You Missed It: "Obama once visited '60s `terrorists'." Read more.

    Under the byline of Howard Wolfson.

    That title changed at Politico at 7AM PST Feb 22nd. I know this because I was engaged in an email exchange with Ben Smith at the time. Obviously, Senator Clintona and Wolfson are in no hurry to change that blog post.

    [ Parent ]

    That's how it was universally interpreted (none / 0) (#18)
    by Shawn on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:22:07 AM EST
    Apparently you weren't paying attention to the campaign then.

    You emailed with Ben Smith. Congrats. Hillary Clinton probably has more pressing matters than blog posts.

    [ Parent ]

    You People (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:14:55 AM EST
    Whining about deal-breakers.  Are you saying you wouldn't support Clinton in the general election????

    Are you considering supporting Clinton in the Primary and this just now turned you off supporting her in the primary???

    He quoted Smith's headline.

    Then Smith changed his headline.  

    So now it stands to reason he'll change the entry there accordingly in good time.

    Or they might just move on to something else.

    But damn.  One thing like that and you folks are making threats.

    There's a few things I'd like Obama and his supporters to retract too, you know.

    They could be deal-breakers for me!!!!!!

    I'm not a big behemouth movement like you people but hey.  There was a post up earlier here that maybe you folks underestimate that YOUR BEHAVIOR might have had some negative impact too.

    You know???

    Deal-breakers indeed.

    Grow up!!!

    [ Parent ]

    I'm not referring to (none / 0) (#15)
    by kid oakland on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:20:07 AM EST
    supporting the Democratic nominee.

    I'm talking about a basic decency we accord one another in our party.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:21:57 AM EST
    Geffen:  "The Clintons are liars."

    Obama:  "Not my job to comment on that."

    The tone of this campaign was set by Obama.

    Stop whining about decency!

    [ Parent ]

    basic decency? that is a funny term to use (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by hellothere on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:00:31 AM EST
    considering the attacks on clinton for being a woman and the wrongful accusations about racism. i clearly remember obama saying he was going to start using chicago style tactics. huh?

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, given that kid oakland (4.20 / 5) (#58)
    by frankly0 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:24:37 AM EST
    is supporting a campaign that did all it could to foster racial resentments so that it could win over the African-American vote in SC, appealing to "basic decency" is a little beyond rich.

    You want to talk about "deal-breakers"? What could have been more of a "deal breaker" than to accuse fellow Democrats groundlessly of racism just to promote your own guy?

    [ Parent ]

    Kinda like Michelle Obama saying (4.20 / 5) (#20)
    by LatinoVoter on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:25:15 AM EST
    That if you can't take care of your house then you can't run the White House? That kind of decency?

    Or maybe the kind of decency the Obama campaign was affording the Clintons when they circulated the memo falsely claiming Bill was giving speeches on 9/11/06? That kind of decency?

    I'm sorry the word "terrorist" offended you and I'm even more sorry that Ben bent to your mob. The facts remain they were terrorist and you can call them "radicals" but to many they are what they are, and that is terrorists.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm disappointed to hear a fellow Dem ... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Chino Blanco on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:55:56 AM EST
    ... slip so easily between past and present tense, between radical and terrorist.

    Anyway, I think Jeralyn got it right the first time.  We're the guys who support the rights of ex-offenders.

    [ Parent ]

    Put away the strawman until next Oct. (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by LatinoVoter on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 03:03:23 AM EST
    Nobody is saying their rights should be taken away.

    [ Parent ]
    I support their rights (none / 0) (#45)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:58:22 AM EST
    if they show remorse.  Does that matter to you?

    [ Parent ]
    This query is for Chino Blanco (none / 0) (#56)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:20:59 AM EST
    and somehow landed here.  Chino?

    [ Parent ]
    Im here ... (none / 0) (#121)
    by Chino Blanco on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:32:32 PM EST
    But I'm not interested in taking this further here.  I found Jeralyn's response to be that of a true Democrat.

    Sexism and racism are both valid areas of concern and inquiry that we Democrats rightfully argue over every four years or so during the process of choosing our nominee for highest office.  Sadly enough, in this day and age, there's been a new -ism introduced for consideration, that of terrorism.  As far as that particular -ism is concerned, well,  to inquire whether my choice of candidate might not be informed by certain (conscious or unconscious) sexist or racist tendencies, that is not something I'd take immediate umbrage with, but to suggest that either I or my preferred candidate merit disqualification from the process due to terrorist sympathies ... I regret to inform, this I will not tolerate in the course of a Democratic primary.  I am an American and a Democrat, and I'm the best kind of American because I'm a Democrat in the worst kind of way ... loyal to a fault.    Questioning love of country has no place in a Democratic primary.  Full stop.  

    [ Parent ]

    come on (none / 0) (#75)
    by jstrick on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:41:01 AM EST
     You know that the "can't take care of your house" comment is taken completely out of context. If you don't then please look up the entire quote.


    [ Parent ]
    Your presumption is unbelievable (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by frankly0 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:11:34 AM EST
    kid oakland, everywhere you post, I see little more than moralizing, self righteous lectures presuming to instruct other Democrats on "correct" behavior. Somehow, you seem to know, better than they might possibly can, what it is that they should be doing.

    The sanctimoniousness of it is pretty revolting.

    Other people have other points of view. They don't always agree with you. Agreeing to disagree, a concept honest and open-minded people of all persuasions accept implicitly, entails that one gives up the notion that people on the opposing side can be hectored into submission.

    You need to make a very serious effort to get over yourself.  

    [ Parent ]

    Thread hijack (none / 0) (#80)
    by herb the verb on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:51:37 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hitting the wall, as I noted here ... (none / 0) (#7)
    by cymro on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:59:28 AM EST
    ... on Thursday.

    Another first for TL!

    after the fever of being in love, (none / 0) (#12)
    by Tano on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:15:26 AM EST
    comes the deeper and more enduring kind of love.

    Glad its happening now. By November it will not only be strong, but deep and mature as well.

    Hehe - no, I am not a cultist, just offering y'all some rather obvious alternative interpretations.

    Not always (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by kenoshaMarge on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 06:00:12 AM EST
    "After the fever of being in love, comes the deeper and more enduring kind of love."

    Or sometimes, ofttimes comes the question, how in the world did I end up with this clown? Were that first feverish love sustainable we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate in this country and being a Divorce Lawyer wouldn't be such a lucrative career.

    And if you think some of us are gonna fall out of love with our candidate and into love with yours you really need to give yourself a reality check. The best, the very best you can hope for is that some of us will be able to hold our noses long enough to vote against McCain and thus for your candidate, should he win.

    [ Parent ]

    Or Obama Comedown Syndrome. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:14:33 AM EST
    Have you ever heard the phrase "The honeymoon is over"? The is when the reality of what you have is what you get.

    This is the reason those of us not struck by Obama-mania want the substance of where he stands on issues.

    When the Magic Fades

    Up until now The Chosen One's speeches had seemed to them less like stretches of words and more like soul sensations that transcended time and space. But those in the grips of Obama Comedown Syndrome began to wonder if His stuff actually made sense. For example, His Hopeness tells rallies that we are the change we have been waiting for, but if we are the change we have been waiting for then why have we been waiting since we've been here all along?

    You can still like the guy and what he stands for without all the mania. This will eventually hurt our chance of getting a Dem in the White House.

    [ Parent ]

    Brooks? (none / 0) (#61)
    by LittleMac on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:49:11 AM EST
    Somehow I doubt that David Brooks wrote that column with the best electoral interests of the Democratic party at heart.

    [ Parent ]
    There will (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:59:03 AM EST
    be more articles like this one..... from many who do NOT have the

    best electoral interests of the Democratic party at heart.

    That is the point... that is why I'm worried about the GE.

    [ Parent ]

    Riiiiight (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by kmblue on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 10:07:39 AM EST

    And the sexist media and A-list blogs all DID have the best interests of the Democratic Party at heart.

    Glad that's been cleared up.

    [ Parent ]