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Lightening Up: Hillary and Obama and a Little You Tube

It's been a contentious week in the blogoshpere and the media between the Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama factions. It's Friday night. Let's lighten up -- here's something for fans of each of them:

[hat tip to The New York Times' Caucus Blog.] This is an open thread.

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    Argh (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by reynwrap582 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:53:58 PM EST
    I've never been able to watch the will.i.am/obama video thing all the way through.  There's just something that makes me...ugghh...  I think it might just be the fact that I hate the sound of two people saying the same thing at the same time in a similar tone.  I can't listen to choirs either.  Plus it just reminds me that his speeches are all just lyrics.

    Public funding (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Kathy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:58:58 PM EST
    I'm sure there are lots of folks here who see Obama's hedging on committing to not taking public funding should he win the ge is all good fun, but does anyone rational recall that he made a pledge a while back not to do this, and that McCain agreed to the same terms?

    So, now that Obama thinks he might actually get the nom, he's waffling, and trying to paint it as if McCain is the waffler.  It was nice to see McCain hit back on that, actually.

    Smacks of "don't worry, I'll make sure the FL delegates are seated I mean what I really meant was that it's undemocratic for the FL delegates to be seated."

    Discuss.

    More info? (none / 0) (#37)
    by andreww on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:44:14 PM EST
    Kathy-
       I do recall this distinctly - that Obama and McCain way back when agreed that if they were the nominees of their party - ie, running against each other - they would accept public funding.  Has something changed recently?  I'm an ardent Obama supporter - and quite frankly one of the reasons I was hoping for an Obama v McCain general was for this very reason.  I thought we might see a campaign based on serious issues.  And with both candidates working within the same limits I thought we might see a different kind of general.  Maybe a different kind of campaign because neither would be worrying about fundraising.  Different options on networks other than the standard 90 second debates and things like that.  I for one will be really disappointed if Obama is changing on this now.  Has this happened?  What's the story?


    Parent
    Nothing's happened (none / 0) (#39)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:50:02 PM EST
    McCain is bringing it up as a reminder to everyone.

    Parent
    see: (none / 0) (#42)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:58:12 PM EST
    Here Is Some Info For You Andrew (none / 0) (#44)
    by MO Blue on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:01:34 PM EST
    Obama spokesman Bill Burton on Thursday called public financing "an option that we wanted on the table," but said "there is no pledge" to take the money and the spending limitations that come with it.MNBC


    Parent
    suspicious indeed (none / 0) (#46)
    by andreww on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:03:53 PM EST
    Yeah cause we REALLY want (none / 0) (#85)
    by slr51 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:52:40 AM EST

    .. the Democratic nominee, whichever one wins it, to work within the public funding rules when the Repub nominee says he doesn't think he will anymore.

    ....riiiiiight

    Let's just give the election away now, shall we?

    Parent

    Why I think allowing Crossover Republicans to (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:02:36 PM EST
    vote in your primaries.  
    1.  In my experience other than disgusted republicans like Myself who see a danger for America if this madness continues.  Most of my fellow Republicans who cast crossover votes will vote for the candidate they see as nearer to them and their beliefs.
    ie: 2006 votes for Nelson.  Who when you hear him speak can out conservative any conservative in the Republican party.
    1. It is none of their business who the Democrats nominate as their party's candidate.  Just do what I do and vote for the best candidate during the GE that's when you should crossover.
    2. If the candidate they voted for in the primaries does not win they will either vote Republican or not vote in the GE.
    (That is assuming they are sincere about crossing-over) I still think a lot of them figure the Republican primary is in the bag and are just doing it to hurt your parties chances.

    All of the Above is My Very Personal Opinion.

    Subject shoud have said (none / 0) (#17)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:04:17 PM EST
    ... it's a bad Idea.

    Parent
    Actually the best idea available (none / 0) (#26)
    by SandyK on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:15:59 PM EST
    because without crossovers, Hillary would've had to close shop early.

    The ones voting for her are otherwise moderate Republicans (hard to accept by partisans, but that's how it is). Same bread and butter issues, except with illegal immigration (that will be her sore spot in this election).

    Parent

    Sandy she has won the closed primaries (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:18:15 PM EST
    Speak the language, Hillary!! (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by SandyK on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:03:26 PM EST
    From yahoo...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080216/ap_on_el_pr/clinton

    "We're going to end every single tax break that still exists in the federal tax code that gives one penny of your money to anybody who exports a job. Those days are done," she said, her voice rising. "It is wrong that an investment money manager in Wall Street making $50 million a year gets a lower tax rate than a teacher, a nurse, a truck driver, and autoworker making $50,000 a year."

    Now that's the spirit! Speak the language of those who work for a living.

    Then cut the tax rate. 1/3 of my sis's paycheck goes to taxes, before health/life and other payments. It doesn't matter if you make $800 a week, to only have less than $500 after the tax man and other obligations get their share.

    If Hillary can say, "I'll cut taxes!", folks will hear a huge sucking sound from the Right, too (a major bone of contention with McMoney). :D

    Want the votes across the board? Talk about cutting taxes. Bleed McInsane dry, and KO Obama cold.

    Why do you suppose (none / 0) (#24)
    by Hypatias Father on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:14:10 PM EST
    Barbara Ehrenreich, a fellow ex-Edwards supporter, sees it differently?

    Parent
    One look at this shows where she errs... (none / 0) (#30)
    by SandyK on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:24:40 PM EST
    "Let's take seriously what he offers, which is "change." The promise of "change" is what drives the Obama juggernaut, and "change" means wanting out of wherever you are now. It can even mean wanting out so badly that you don't much care, as in the case of the Ron Paul voters cited above, exactly what that change will be. In reality, there's no mystery about the direction in which Obama might take us: He's written a breathtakingly honest autobiography; he has a long legislative history, and now, a meaty economic program."

    When folks don't care where they're going (off a cliff); or because someone writes an autobiography (like that's solutions to the problems that Americans are facing, by some limelight in his personal life -- notice to readers, no autobiography is "honest", if it was, no one would like him); has a legislative history without many votes to judge his competence on the issues (can we say "empty suit"?); then all of a sudden writes a "meaty" economic program....ah...I can see how her opinion can be dramatically wrong!!

    Parent

    I have an Idea I have suggested in other Blogs (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:53:53 PM EST
    and maybe here before.  

    Why don't the different Candidates followers do a little research on the people who are advisors in both campaigns.  Specially the economic and foreign affair advisors but also the others.  Look up their bios see what they were doing during the 90's, see who they work for and maybe if you've read some of the writing they have published see were they stand on the issues.

    A lot of people look at candidates but ignore their advisors who have a lot to do with where the candidates stands on the issues.

    One example, (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:04:00 PM EST
    one of Obama campaign's foreign policy wonks, who was in Clinton state dept., and one of Clinton campaign's finance advisors, were both recently in Syria:

    NY SUN

    Parent

    well good night have a pleasant evening (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:28:47 PM EST
    I have to work

    I think those are both for Obama fans (none / 0) (#1)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:32:42 PM EST


    The first is sponsored by HRC (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:35:52 PM EST
    Nice try though. Watch to the end, Hillary may not shred, but she will end the war, tackle global warming and make college affordable.  It's sponsored by her campaign.

    Parent
    I never watched it till the end before (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:41:22 PM EST
    I still think that's funnier to Obama fans.

    Parent
    It's clear (none / 0) (#4)
    by Hypatias Father on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:48:38 PM EST
    from these exemplars, which campaign has the distinct edge in viral marketing.

    yes, and viral videos (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Kathy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:54:00 PM EST
    are so important when choosing the next president.  I particularly like will.i.am's "Song of Osama," where dulcet tones induce the long misunderstood mass murderer of thousands of Americans to come down from the mountains and unite our world.  Then, there's the ever popular, "Insurance Companies: Rise Up and Sing!"  And who could forget: "Build a Bridge Over Troubled Waters"?

    I'm telling you--viral videos are the only way we are going to get out of the war, obtain universal healthcare and fix our crumbling infrastructure.

    <sigh> if only there were a song to end female genital mutilation.  Has anyone heard from Bjork lately?

    Parent

    Maybe not important (none / 0) (#11)
    by Hypatias Father on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:57:11 PM EST
    in choosing choosing a candidate.  But increasingly important in electing one.

    Parent
    Am I the only one (none / 0) (#14)
    by Kathy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:00:15 PM EST
    who thinks those kids who are so hot for Obama are going to be pretty busy come November preparing for finals and/or moving rapidly on to the next big thing?  I mean, come on--if not for the writers strike, half of them would've been elsewhere these last two months.

    And I say this as a former college kid.

    Parent

    Let's belittle a whole group of people (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:09:03 PM EST
    just because they don't like your candidate.  College kids are tuning in for the first time in a generation, it should be celebrated.

    Parent
    I *did* belittle them (1.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Kathy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:21:20 PM EST
    Why is it okay for folks to go on the national news and say, "women  are obviously a problem" because they vote for Clinton, yet to say anything in any way negative about our Precious Young Hopelings is tantamount to shooting a mockingbird?

    The only good thing that will come out of an Obama nomination is all these spoiled little self-centered tots whose parents were so afraid of letting them lose anything that they fixed their freakin' t-ball games will learn what it's like to really lose.

    Nobody felt sorry for me when Mondale lost.  Tuning in is all well and good, but staying tuned in is the real judge of character.  And that is what politics is all about.

    Parent

    wow (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by andreww on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:02:24 PM EST
    that's overgeneralizing a bit don't you think?  I'm just curious and was wondering if you could help me out with something - I'm 31, married, have 2 kids, live in a two bedroom condo in the city of Chicago, am self employed so I have to take care of my own health insurance, and the school that would be our neighborhood school is a s&%t hole, yet we don't want to move out of the city because we love it there, and I won't go into details but have certainly experienced loss in my life.  I happen to believe that Obama is the best candidate for a number of reasons and have been hoping he would run for president since before he announced.  Do I count as a "spoiled little self-centered tot whose parents were so afraid of letting them lose anything"

    Or do I not count because Obama's my Senator - clearly unable to think logically about who I support and why I support them.

    Parent

    You count (none / 0) (#48)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:07:41 PM EST
    and I hope you take your vote to the ballot no matter who the nominee is.  Every vote counts.  At state level the Electoral College that's a different story.

    Parent
    no, i was specifically (none / 0) (#49)
    by andreww on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:11:51 PM EST
    wondering if I count as a "spoiled little self-centered tot whose parents were so afraid of letting them lose anything"

    Parent
    IMO, no. (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:32:00 PM EST
    Query:  has Obama represented your interests well?  How?  Thanks.

    Parent
    In early February the League of Women (none / 0) (#75)
    by hairspray on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:47:57 AM EST
    Voters of which i am a member held a noontime presentation at a local community college with lots of information on the ballot measures of the state.  We had been invited by the student union personnel and they advertized heavily. Three students showed up. At 1 p.m. as we were leaving, an Obama rally appeared.  The student union was packed.  I am NOT impressed.  And this is what I have seen over the years.

    Parent
    you count (none / 0) (#76)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:07:17 AM EST
    but it sounds like you are going to have to choose between the city and private schools or moving to the suburbs for decent public schools. Neither Obama nor Hillary will be able to make a difference before your kids hit junior high or high school. That's reality. Crummy, but true.

    Parent
    The young Obama supporter (none / 0) (#32)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:36:57 PM EST
    My oversimplified and therefore critical view of the majority of the young Obama supporters, this is a generalization.  

    There is a contingent of young people that have really, really gotten into it and looked at the certain issues,like the war,  they chose Obama.  Still I find that they seek their information from the blogs, tv and friends.  Consequently, the Hillary bashing has made it practically impossible for them to even take a look.  They don't read independent critical analysis, they have not delved beyond the comfort zone.  This follower becomes zealous feeling they have looked at everything.  

    But there another large number that is just following the fad with little or no information and parroting the memes.  These I would call the "thumb" people, the text message, myspace, facebook, you tube viral ones.  It's fashionable and they want to belong.  It feels good and  they think they can actually like their country.    This one just wants to belong.  They choose because they like the feeling of belonging to a movement.  

    Parent

    I have nothing on young voters (none / 0) (#35)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:42:15 PM EST
    I was one once and my daughter is one now (22) but I just hope that unlike before this time they do go vote in the GE.  I remember back in the 60's and seventies most of my friends did not vote.  They talked up a storm but they did not vote.  For America's sake I hope they do this year and that they vote Democrat.

    Parent
    Fad voters (none / 0) (#36)
    by Hypatias Father on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:44:01 PM EST
    Then all the more important for a candidate to be savvy enough to figure out how to tap this resource.  In terms of the GE, one fad voter for us means one less for them.  We can dismiss their naive enthusiasm and feel self-satisfied (re. our more sophisticated identities as mature voters), but surely it's better to have them than to not have them.  

    Parent
    Obama broke the code (none / 0) (#58)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:11:58 PM EST
    I agree.

    Parent
    I doubt we are the target audience of (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:00:21 PM EST
    Obama's 26 and under speech writing team.  well, maybe Ted Sorensen.

    Parent
    Goodness (none / 0) (#83)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:09:52 AM EST
    what a little hornet's nest I stirred up!  Let me continue to belittle our vaunted youth (Please note that I still believe the children are our future, but you have to teach them well and let them learn the way, and they don't do that by having everything handed to them, do they Ms. Whitney?) but in addition to that, I would like to bash the baby boomers, who gave us this current batch of youth, a bit as well.

    I did make a broad generalization, and of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but I am frankly tired of all these older (usually baby boomers) who say, "I switched because my kid told me to!"

    Number one: we are at war.  People are dying.  The economy is in tatters.  We are TORTURING people in the name of the United States of America.  We are EXECUTING innocent people on death row (among other places).  Our international reputation is in pieces. Mentally ill people are in our schools (thanks, Reagan!) shooting their friends.  You are switching your vote because your nineteen year old told you Obama is cool and makes you feel good?  

    Number one (a): why would you let someone who has never balanced a checkbook, never held a steady job, never had to pay his own insurance and never had to take care of himself on his own persuade you to change your vote?

    Number two: let's make a deal: get out of your mom's basement and get a job, and then I'll vote for Obama (you'll see a Clinton sign in the stairway the next day)

    Conclusion: Kids are kids.  They are, in general, a lazy bunch that migrates to the next big thing, and by November, I'm sure there will be ten next big things.  There is a reason why auto insurance drops in price when you're over twenty-five.  There is a reason why credit card companies stop sending you as many offers when you are over twenty-five.  Until around that time, you are basically a mess of wants and a barrel of hopes.  You have to take time to mature and to learn from failure (a novelty, I'm sure).

    A greater problem here is the blatant youth-seeking by baby boomers that is just as bad.  "Let's ride the new wave, no matter the fact that my scar from my knee replacement surgeries keeps getting caught on my spandex shorts!"  These are the people who brought Botox to the market.  They will, as a group, literally inject poison into their faces for the appearance of "youth."

    Of course they are listening to their wrinkle-free offspring who tell them Obama makes them young!  So, they put on their low-cut jeans and their belly-baring tops and snap their LiveStrong bracelets and go to the rallies and come out feeling young again--until their mortgage comes due or they lose their health insurance.

    (And I hope they don't mind working until they're seventy, because Obama has already said he's going to raise the age for retirement to "bail out" social security.)

    Parent

    Here, here. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Hypatias Father on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:37:58 PM EST
    Tuning in is all well and good, but staying tuned in is the real judge of character.  And that is what politics is all about.

    I can't argue with that.  Fortunately, we won't have to speculate for much longer whether younger voters will bother to turn out in significant numbers.

    If they do, however, then your own logic would force us to offer some respect to them.  We shall see.

    Parent

    I think there will be a bump in young voters (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:12:22 PM EST
    no matter who the candidate is for Dems in the fall...is all this energy just suddenly going to fade away?  I can only really speak for college kids but I think if colleges have really expanded their political organizations and students their involvement, they'll both stick around for November more or less.  Plus my college went crazy for Kerry in '04, and if you can go crazy for Kerry you can go crazy for anybody I'd say.

    Parent
    woo! (none / 0) (#52)
    by mindfulmission on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:17:58 PM EST
    When you can't attack ideas, attack the people!

    Stay classy.

    Parent

    Like Obama (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:12:14 PM EST
    Jeralyn... (none / 0) (#65)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:04:14 AM EST
    ... I already renounced that comment.  

    And come on - are we in grade school?  Do I really need to say that two wrongs don't make a right?  

    Do I really need to ask if one person's classlessness justifies another?

    You have to be kidding me.

    I have to admit Jeralyn... I am pretty disappointed that you are justifying direct attacks of people simply because they are young and support Obama.  

    Parent

    I have not attacked anyone (none / 0) (#78)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:10:24 AM EST
    because of their youth. I am a trumpeter of youth, always have been. Commenters here have made that argument, but I haven't. I have criticized his "hope, optimism and change" meme and said it's an illusion, but I have never criticized his youthful supporters. I'm all for getting out the youth vote. In November, if it comes down to youth power or gray power, I think the gray power voters will show up in greater numbers, but that's not a criticism of youth.

    I'm a big supporter of Rock the Vote and every other youth initiative out there. Let's be fair.

    Parent

    Jeralyn (none / 0) (#81)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 07:28:35 AM EST
    Fair?  Come on ... I never said you attacked young voters.  I said I was disappointed that you were supporting or justifying Kathy's attack because Obama made a different inappropriate comment.  

    If you are going to delete "geriatric" comments, you should delete comments that admittedly "belittles" young voters and refers to young Obama supporters as "spoiled little self-centered tots whose parents were so afraid of letting them lose anything that they fixed their freakin' t-ball games will learn what it's like to really lose."

    Parent

    I don't think that... (none / 0) (#57)
    by mindfulmission on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:36:34 PM EST
    ... it is okay to belittle people for supporting a candidate.  Period.

    Well... maybe if they support a Republican, but that is a different conversation.  :)  (and for those humor-impaired folks, the smiley face?  that means it is a joke)

    I don't attack women for supporting Hillary.  And I don't think that African American's should be attacked for supporting for Obama.

    I don't think that the young should be attacked for supporting Obama or the old for supporting Clinton.

    And by the way... do people realize that just because one group gets wrongly attacked, that doesn't mean you should or need to wrongly attack another group?

    Parent

    Women are a problem...? (none / 0) (#61)
    by hvs on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:17:12 PM EST
    Nobody outside of Bill Kristol thinks this was okay.

    Parent
    Proof is in the pudding... (none / 0) (#23)
    by SandyK on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:11:52 PM EST
    when November comes.

    They'll show up for the primaries, but when it comes time to commit, they're like many before the alter, get cold feet and never show up!

    Parent

    huh? (none / 0) (#53)
    by mindfulmission on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:19:51 PM EST
    Somehow you are trying to say that youth will turn our more for primaries than the general election?

    Has any group, ever, shown up in larger numbers for a primary than a general election?

    And how is choosing a candidate in a primary not a commitment by choosing a candidate in a general election is?

    Parent

    Have you ever voted before? (none / 0) (#60)
    by SandyK on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:12:57 PM EST
    Because if you did, you wouldn't be asking the question.

    GE comes, those who show up to vote are grannies and middle aged workers trying to get in before going to work, or during their lunch.

    Has been like this forever -- thus, the skeptism of seeing more than 1 or 2 college aged kids in the line.

    Parent

    An even more tempting (none / 0) (#62)
    by SandyK on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:22:44 PM EST
    my polling station is right next to a high school. I have n-e-v-e-r seen a student come across to vote after school (which is about the time I usually vote to avoid the crowd). Heck, the same when Tech was housed there 20 years ago!

    Added bonus: those holding the signs aren't kids. Added Added bonus: you sure don't see them wearing the "I voted" stickers, either. A status quo thing here, so much a bus had it stickerd on it's coin changer...lol

    Telling you they don't show up, and definitely don't show up for local voting. Couple months ago we have one bill to vote upon, only ones there were the graying pollsters, and ever grayer voters (yeah, me included!).

    Parent

    high school? (none / 0) (#64)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:00:33 AM EST
    The vast majority of high school kids can't vote.  

    so I am not sure what your point is.  

    Parent

    At 18 you can... (none / 0) (#66)
    by SandyK on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:06:48 AM EST
    and there's no excuse for Tech students to not vote (especially when granny does!).

    Waited in 1992 (when I was in my twenties).

    Waited in 1996.

    Waited in 2000.

    Waited in 2004.

    Will I wait in 2008 to see the same thing again?

    Parent

    Very few... (none / 0) (#67)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:08:31 AM EST
    ... high schoolers are 18.  Especially in November elections.

    Parent
    Also... (none / 0) (#69)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:12:23 AM EST
    ... isn't that point that Obama is bringing out young voters who have typically not voted before?

    They haven't voted in General Elections at high levels, and they especially have not voted in primaries at high levels.

    And I still don't get the assertion that more people vote in primaries than general elections.

    Parent

    First... (none / 0) (#63)
    by mindfulmission on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:59:11 PM EST
    ... yes, I have voted.  More than once.

    Second, more people vote in the General Election than Primary elections.

    For example... roughly 3-3.1 million people voted in IL's primaries this year.  Over 5 million people voted in Illinois in the 2004 General Election.  

    I have no idea where you get the idea that more people vote in primaries.

    Parent

    Nope, not with kids (none / 0) (#68)
    by SandyK on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:11:14 AM EST
    they simply don't show up for the GE.

    This is the problem folks been saying, and so skeptical about -- will the youth vote ever materialize beyond the primaries?

    Parent

    Any evidence? (none / 0) (#70)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:13:58 AM EST
    Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

    Specifically... give me an example where a candidate brought in unusually large numbers of young voters and won the primary, but then those young voters didn't show up for the general election.  

    Parent

    One links says it all! (none / 0) (#71)
    by SandyK on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:26:20 AM EST
    More food for thought... (none / 0) (#72)
    by SandyK on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:34:58 AM EST
    http://www.indstate.edu/adp/docs/bhvr_prjct_fnldrft.pdf

    The 2000 presidential election between Republican George W. Bush and Democrat Al Gore, only garnered 32 percent of the vote from 18-24 year olds, while 55 percent of eligible voters participated, according to the "Youth Vote Coalition" (Ricks, 2004). Other discouraging
    numbers reported by the Census Current Population Surveys of Levine and Lopez (2002), calculated that the 18-24 age bracket equated into only 32 percent voter turnout, as opposed to 64 percent of those 25 years of age and older. These numbers only further validate the notion that many of today's youth are becoming disengaged from the political process at a quicker rate than older adults, because of little or no interest in the process (of voting) or the platform (of the
    candidate running for office).

    These aren't ideas, the come with facts. The same facts you see at poll stations in every election.

    Parent

    ugh... (none / 0) (#74)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:38:58 AM EST
    ... you are arguing one thing and then using facts that support a different thing.

    I have never denied that the youth turnout has been relatively low when compared to the total turnout.  

    What I am saying is that you have ZERO evidence to support you assertion that more young voters vote in primaries than they do in general elections.  Youth turnout is high.  I believe that it has been higher in the primaries than it has been in decades.  And you have ZERO evidence to support your claim that these youth will not show up in November.  

    Parent

    No... (none / 0) (#73)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:36:25 AM EST
    ... not really.

    I still want to see an example where more young voters showed up in a primary than a general election.  If you can show me that, you may have a small argument.

    If you can show me that those young voters supported a primary candidate who won, and then they didn't show up in the general election, than you would really have an argument.

    But a quick perusal through that site doesn't show anything of the sort.  I am to tired to spend much time reading through each report, but from what I could quickly see, there were no reports that compared primary and general election turnouts among young voters.

    Further... all of those reports indicated an increase in 2004 among young voters.

    So I am really not sure what you think that site says.  Because it sure doesn't look like it supports what you have been trying to say.

    Parent

    B-o-r-e-d...Here's some data (none / 0) (#77)
    by SandyK on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:09:55 AM EST
    Dig and you'll find a jewel...

    The Dismal Gen X Voter Turnout Rate in 2000

    Despite all of the hoopla about new voters being brought into the fold and record turnouts in Republican primaries, turnout among 18-29 year-olds was rather pathetic. In no state did this cohort turnout in greater numbers than their elders. In our report we detail the turnout rates in 16 contested primaries and cite how badly young adults under-represented themselves. In some of the worst cases, Xers participated at only one-third their proportion of the voting-age population.

    [Where's the red highlighter when you need it!]

    Neglection Report 2000

    Parent

    Patience, patience, patience (none / 0) (#80)
    by SandyK on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:13:41 AM EST
    "But a quick perusal through that site doesn't show anything of the sort.  I am to tired to spend much time reading through each report"

    You need to dig, MM, dig. Research doesn't just drop in your lap, you have to actively search for it. Spent 30 years researching one historical event, and still researching it!


    Parent

    Come on... (none / 0) (#82)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 07:30:07 AM EST
    ... if the data exists, show it to me.

    If you claim something is true, you should be able to back it up.  You say that site proves your point, but I don't see it.  And you keeping pointing out numbers that say the youth turnout is always low.  But that doesn't prove your point.  

    There is no data that supports your assertion.  None.

    Once again... you claim that more young voters show up in primaries than in general elections.  You also say that more voters show up in primaries than general elections.

    And you can't back either of them up.  

    Parent

    Kids! (none / 0) (#86)
    by SandyK on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:48:20 PM EST
    "You say that site proves your point, but I don't see it.  And you keeping pointing out numbers that say the youth turnout is always low.  But that doesn't prove your point."

    Partisans are like like a Boston creme pie. All gooey on the outside, and what's on the inside, is pudding!

    I gave you facts and figures. Well, researched figures as well, with a good sized sample. Even a "quick scan" will give you the info you were seeking. I take it you didn't even bother to read it, huh?  

    So, please don't say that kids don't show up to the GE, unless you can prove it. I did. :)

    Parent

    Stop. (none / 0) (#87)
    by mindfulmission on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:15:58 PM EST
    Your original point was that more people show up to primaries than general elections.  This is patently false.

    You then claim that young voters show up more to primaries than general elections.  

    And then to support your claim, you give stats that show low youth turnout.  But low youth turnout in the general election is irrelevant if you cannot compare it to youth turnout in primaries.

    Once again - give me one example, just one, where youth turnout has been higher in a primary election than the general election.  

    It shouldn't be too difficult if you say it is so easy to find.

    Parent

    Hey maybe not in this Blog but (none / 0) (#25)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:14:15 PM EST
    in other blogs I see a lot of belittling of the Older generations by these young voters.  Check out some of the comments in Huffpo and others.

    Parent
    Honestly (none / 0) (#28)
    by Hypatias Father on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:21:15 PM EST
    I don't think we even have to leave this blog to see evidence of both generations belittling one another.

    Parent
    at least Jeralyn (none / 0) (#84)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 09:14:53 AM EST
    stopped them from calling us "elderly" last week!

    Parent
    I'd go and give the tots the Marine DI (none / 0) (#40)
    by SandyK on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:53:35 PM EST
    treatment.

    But I'll probably last about 1hr before being banned...lololol

    DK........Banned
    Hannity...Banned

    Won't go to DU, one of it's founders was kind to me at Hannity, so won't mess up his house.

    Parent

    finals? (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by mindfulmission on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:14:20 PM EST
    finals are typically early/middle of december.  

    i am pretty sure that most college students are not even thinking about finals during the first week of november.

    Parent

    That's a definite concern... (none / 0) (#18)
    by reynwrap582 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:04:19 PM EST
    Obama Girl didn't even go out to vote for him.

    Parent
    That say enough right there! n/t (none / 0) (#22)
    by SandyK on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:09:45 PM EST
    I dunno... (none / 0) (#19)
    by Hypatias Father on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:05:49 PM EST
    It will be very interesting to see.  I think youth turn-out during 'Spring Break' here in Texas might be a good indicator.  In any case, I'm just impressed (and heartened) that they're voting in 'primaries'.

    Parent
    No! (none / 0) (#20)
    by Kathy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:08:41 PM EST
    The Texas primary is during spring break for you guys?  Are you kidding me?

    More teachers voting, more kids drinking!

    Parent

    Open Thread?? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Florida Resident on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:50:07 PM EST


    yes that means (none / 0) (#6)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:51:33 PM EST
    readers can pick the topics to discuss rather than have to stick to the topic of the post.

    Parent
    McRib is back!!! (none / 0) (#10)
    by Kathy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:55:12 PM EST
    Hey! (none / 0) (#9)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:54:37 PM EST
    You put the Hillary video on top!

    I'm telling!

    Wow... (none / 0) (#12)
    by reynwrap582 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:57:46 PM EST
    uncanny resemblance to a TPM commenter...  Good job!

    Parent
    See Bill playing the saxaphone: (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:36:11 PM EST
    Interesting Exit Poll Question (none / 0) (#34)
    by AF on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:38:42 PM EST
    Which Candidate Attacked Unfairly?

    MD (p. 5)

    Only Clinton (21%)

    Only Obama   (4%)

    Both         (25%)

    Neither      (45%)

    VA (p. 5)

    Only Clinton (26%)

    Only Obama   (5%)

    Both         (21%)

    Neither      (44%)

    I know these are Obama states, but virtually nobody thought he was the only one attacking unfairly.

    My fav Hillary vid (none / 0) (#38)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:48:51 PM EST
    Posting would be close to trolling so I won't.  Check youtube under Hilllary Cough if you're curious.

    i have to say... (none / 0) (#54)
    by mindfulmission on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:24:09 PM EST
    ... that the Clinton as is very unimpressive.  And i was pretty surprised to see that it was created by the Clinton campaign.

    But I guess I don't really matter... I already voted, and wouldn't have been influenced by such an ad anyway.

    I'm turning in as well (none / 0) (#79)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 01:11:58 AM EST
    See you all tomorrow.