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Why We Need Krugman

By Big Tent Democrat

I always envisioned the progressive blogs and the progressive base as the Left flank of the Democratic Party, holding both our pols AND the Media accountable. The blogs have certainly held Hillary Clinton's feet to the fire on issues, and I applaud them for that. But the blogs generally have not held Barack Obama's feet to the fire. Worse than that, they have not only NOT held the Media to account, too often they have echoed what Paul Krugman labels the Clinton Rules:

What’s particularly saddening is the way many Obama supporters seem happy with the application of “Clinton rules” — the term a number of observers use for the way pundits and some news organizations treat any action or statement by the Clintons, no matter how innocuous, as proof of evil intent.

If folks wonder why I rail about the Media and the progressive blogs on this, I think Krugman offers an explanation:

I call it Clinton rules, but it’s a pattern that goes well beyond the Clintons. For example, Al Gore was subjected to Clinton rules during the 2000 campaign: anything he said, and some things he didn’t say (no, he never claimed to have invented the Internet), was held up as proof of his alleged character flaws.

For now, Clinton rules are working in Mr. Obama’s favor. But his supporters should not take comfort in that fact.

For one thing, Mrs. Clinton may yet be the nominee — and if Obama supporters care about anything beyond hero worship, they should want to see her win in November.

But more important even than that for me is that we are not engaged in politics to see particular candidates triumph. We are engaged in politics to see particular ideas and issues triumph. When we accept, even echo, the biases of the Media, in order to serve a candidate we prefer, we debase our commitment to the issues we claim to care about.

Paul Krugman understands this and has spoken faithfully to his views on the issues and to basic fairness. He is wrong on many things. But he is not shading his views to support the candidate of his preference. He argues for his issues and supports candidates based on how he perceives the issues he argues for will be effected by particular candidates.

I repeat my mantra:

As citizens and activists, our allegiances have to be to the issues we believe in. I am a partisan Democrat it is true. But the reason I am is because I know who we can pressure to do the right thing some of the times. Republicans aren't them. But that does not mean we accept the failings of our Democrats. There is nothing more important that we can do, as citizens, activists or bloggers than fight to pressure DEMOCRATS to do the right thing on OUR issues.

And this is true in every context I think. Be it pressing the Speaker or the Senate majority leader, or the new hope running for President. There is nothing more important we can do. Nothing. It's more important BY FAR than "fighting" for your favorite pol because your favorite pol will ALWAYS, I mean ALWAYS, disappoint you.

In the middle of primary fights, citizens, activists and bloggers like to think their guy or woman is different. They are going to change the way politics works. They are going to not disappoint. In short, they are not going to be pols. That is, in a word, idiotic.

Yes, they are all pols. And they do what they do. Do not fight for pols. Fight for the issues you care about. That often means fighting for a pol of course. But remember, you are fighting for the issues. Not the pols.

NOTE: Comments are now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Amen (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:43:01 PM EST
    Personalities are drowning the issues.

    Isn't that the media's goal? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Josey on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:29:00 PM EST
    This is the same media that created Britney, Paris - and Oblahma.


    [ Parent ]
    Oblahma (none / 0) (#63)
    by tek on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:36:42 PM EST
    LOL!

    [ Parent ]
    I love it. (none / 0) (#102)
    by ajain on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:55:27 PM EST
    I think the word Oblahma captures exactly the way I feel about Oblahma. We should make that his official web name from here on out.

    [ Parent ]
    I'd advise against it (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:01:04 PM EST
    It will just give them another reason to not vote for Hillary in November.

    [ Parent ]
    Well.. (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by ajain on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:15:20 PM EST
    I'm not going to argue with you there, but I hate how Hillary fans can't go negative on him but he and his fans can keep doing just that. I mean if calling her divisive is not a right wing political tactic then I don't know what is.

    [ Parent ]
    Totally (4.00 / 2) (#166)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:23:03 PM EST
    I just think we should bring his supporters back to earth in other ways... just not sure what those are. :-P

    [ Parent ]
    Bob Somerby elaborates (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by GOPmurderedconscience on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:47:11 PM EST
    Frank Rich (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by tek on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:45:33 PM EST
    Just before I came to Talk Left, I read Frank Rich's rancid article. I sent an e-mail to the NYTimes publisher and told him he should look at the real story, "The Clinton Rules."

    Actually, what bothers me more than the media slant against Hillary, is the fact that her own party stands back and lets anyone and everyone tell whatever outrageous lies about her and Bill and their campaign they want and says nothing, does nothing to defend her.  The Party might as well come right out an say "We don't want you." It's very disheartening. I'm really starting to believe the Democrats are too fractious to ever be a power in American politics.

    I'm waiting to see the effects on the Party when they destroy Hillary, push Obama to the nomination, and then he's eaten up by the Republicans and we have four more years.

    [ Parent ]

    Slate (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:51:37 PM EST
    is repeating the bogus claim that Clinton is calling for Shuster to be fired.  The XX Factor column seems to have denigrated into a Chelsea as robot story alongside the "Clinton is using this for political gain" crap.  One less blog I check out now.  This is so depressing.

    I wish Krugman's voice was not the minority.  Of course, I wish I was ten years younger and ten pounds lighter, so what do I know?

    The First Step Toward Recovery, Josh (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by xjt on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:52:11 PM EST
    Is admitting you have a problem.

    Hillary's a pol (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by echinopsia on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:57:39 PM EST
    and she doesn't deny it. That's why supporting her IS supporting the issues I care about.

    Don't miss the Vanity Fair article on Gore in 2000 and how the press vilified him. Many of the same people are vilifying Hillary for the same reasons.

    Plus the article in the NYT by Stanley Fish: A Calumny a Day To Keep Hillary Away.

    Yes, indeed... (5.00 / 1) (#254)
    by Camorrista on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 04:43:35 PM EST
    What's odd--and worrisome--is that so many Obama supporters seem to detest her for exactly that - for being a politician.  As if only non-politicians (and/or visionaries) should be allowed to run for the presidency.  

    Some of us whose first vote was for John Kennedy love politicians, and are pretty skeptical of non-pols (and/or visionaries).  Nor we do we hang a nostalgic scrim over certain pols of the past--Robert Kennedy, for instance, who made his bones by helping Joe McCarthy and savaging Jimmy Hoffa (not to mention using some pretty ugly methods to get his brother elected).  In other words, a pol to his fingertips.  

    In fact, despite the poignant fantasies of some of his admirers, Obama is indeed a politician, and a good one.  He is not a one-note amateur--a Perot, or a Ventura, or a Wendell Wilkie, or even a Gene McCarthy.  He has policies, he has proposals, he has positions (though it helps to search his website to discover them).  

    Nobody gets as far as Obama has in politics solely because of his inspiring rhetoric.  If inspiring rhetoric could do the trick, William Jennings Bryan would have been elected president three times, and Alan Keyes would be serving his second term.

    The question is, is Obama enough of a politician to govern?  Part of governing is sweet-talking people; another part is knee-capping them, friends and enemies alike, when something crucial is at stake--i.e.,LBJ, and the Civil Rights Act.

    Obama's good at the first, but what about the second?

    I know he's a charmer.  But can he be a thug?  Every great pol (and great statesman) has been both.  

    [ Parent ]

    Bravo (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by mexboy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:02:31 PM EST
    I'm so discouraged by all the Hillary bashing. It's just NOT progressive and utterly suicidal to progressive issues.

    Clinton Rules (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by marirebel on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:05:26 PM EST
    Part of the problem is that Obama himself consistently applies Clinton rules.  He often refers to Hillary as "divisive," even though she won her Senate seat with the support of traditionally Republican counties in New York.  More, she has effectively worked in the Senate across the aisle, even with notoriously conservative Senators like Orin Hatch.  Hillary has a proven record of being able to facilitate alliances across significant differences.  So whay is she divisive?  Because some right-wing hatemongers hate her?  Well, one particularly vociferous and hateful member of this group, Coulter, has said she will campaign for Hillary.  And, should we have backed-off civil rights because many right wingers hated King?  Obama also refers to Hillary as the "status quo."  Isn't Bush the status quo?  And didn't part of the Clinton hate arise in the context of the Arkansas country bumpkins disturbing the Washington elite, i.e., being outside the status quo?  Then of course there is the dastardly "Clinton machine."  Obama did not get this far without a well-organized cadre of experts, strategists and workers working on his behalf.  I guess he has the Obama machine (though he doesn't speak of it)--and from what I've seen in the blogosphere, it's pretty damn mean!

    Yes, let's hear the candidates talk about issues and stop with the false characterizations.  And, yes, more debates are good. I have only seen one debate where these two candidates alone are able to articulate their positions and their differences.  

    Obama tactic (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:20:09 PM EST
    What Obama, his surrogates and his supporters have done is lash out. They have defined change to mean from Democrats and Republicans. In his effort to brand himself as different, even though he is a politician with a machine, he has demonized his fellow Democrat. In order for Obama to win, he had to demonize Hillary. The demonization of Hillary, was easy, he picked up the Republican Clinton hate book and added some distortions like the "he was against the war", the alleged better judgement, the anti dynastic mantra aided by the self proclaimed progressive blogs. In the Obama and blogosphere ego orgy, we have wounded the Democratic Agenda. Frankly, this is not how you build a party or movement.

    [ Parent ]
    Stellaaa (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by tek on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:51:53 PM EST
    This is exactly what I told a friend this weekend who is supporting Obama. He just couldn't believe I'm still supporting Hillary and had to know why and why didn't I like Obama? It reminds me of evangelicals who are trying to convert you.

    I told him that what bothers me is Obama's strategy to get the nomination is to destroy Clinton and to do that he has to destroy the Clinton legacy. He is perfectly willing to do that, even though millions of Democrats love the Clintons, so in essence he is demonizing his fellow Democrats.

    Of course, my friend denied that Obama is trying to destroy Clinton (!!), that there is any unfair bias against Clinton and that Obama is using any dirty tricks. I said I think it's possible that Obama will pick up some Republicans but lose half the Democrats.

    [ Parent ]

    Why Hillary appeals to conservatives (none / 0) (#226)
    by SandyK on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:28:03 PM EST
    Because she's a safe bet.

    I'm a conservative, but I'm crossing the line because of not only gender, my own side's candidate is m-a-d (he's ready to push Russia out of the G-8 and mess with their internal affairs...WWIV anyone?).

    Obama I don't know -- little voting history; no political experience other than local; and yes, his age. And he screams the word "CHANGE" too much.

    Hillary is the only stable candidate in the mix that isn't preaching extremism. The radical left is touting Obama, and for me that's fine. I want a president that can be presidential and not have to waste time learning how to be presidential (as he sure doesn't have the experience).

    [ Parent ]

    Krugman and Healthcare (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by BDB on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:16:05 PM EST
    Watching so many "liberal" and "progressive" blogs go after Krugman on his criticisms of Obama's healthcare plan or ignore the criticisms of Obama's plan has been incredibly depressing.  I can remember a time when universal healthcare was one of the top progressive/liberal causes.

    And it's not that I think holding Obama accountable for his weaker healthcare plan and his abysmal healthcare rhetoric means necessarily not endorsing him in the primary.  I think Obama supporters could do both - point out his policy weaknesses and still argue why he's the best choice.   And a few of them do this, but not nearly enough.

    The last eight years have been a disaster due in large part because of the lack of accountability - in government, in politics, and in the media.  The most worrisome thing about Obama's campaign is that it seems to continue this trend.  Whenever Obama does anything that should worry people who care about UHC or other liberal causes, the apologists come out in force.

    And what message does that send Obama?  That he can Harry&Louise UHC and that's okay.  That he can refuse to stand up for MoveON and that's okay.  That his campaign can push distortions about Clinton's comments about MLK and that's okay.  

    When he gets to the White House and starts cutting deals progressives dislike, we really have no one to blame but ourselves.   Politicians are only as good as they're made to be.  Obama could be very good, but we're letting him get by with way too much.

    I second this wholeheartedly-- (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by jawbone on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:12:11 PM EST
    I've noticed blogs that don't want to have flame wars seem to be avoiding mentioning Krugman this primary cycle.

    Which is so sad--he was one of the few voices in the MCM (maintstream corporate media) who articulated what was wrong with GWBush's campaign lies, wrong with his economic programs, tax plan, etc.  Krugman kept me sane during the 2000 campaign, which was before there was a large liberal blog presence and before I used the Internet for anything except business (no home PC at the time and folks got fired at my corporation for using the company's computers for private business).

    Recently, I seldom see front page links to Krugman--too controversial bcz it might upset the True Believers? Yikes!

    The reality-based community, alas, is as subject to sweeping rhetoric and unthinking reactions as anyone else, it seems.

    The NYTimes article about Obama's handling of his proposed legislation to require nuke power plant operators to inform the public of leaks was watered down to the point it was BushLite has not been featured on many blogs. Now is it much discussed if posted by a commenter.  Scary.  Where is the blogosphere reporting of how Obama legislatates, negotiates, manages differences?  

    Are we going to wake up to some big surprises if he is the nominee?

    And, yes, I have not yet "seen the light."

    [ Parent ]

    Where's the evidence? (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:17:28 PM EST
    Of Obama supporters who are public figures applying the Clinton rules to Hillary?  

    (Bloggers, commenters, and letters to the editor writers don't count. Obviously, there's plenty of mud being slung on both sides there.)

    I could start with Barack and Michelle Obama (5.00 / 8) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:18:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Please do (none / 0) (#35)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:25:53 PM EST
    Sorry about the double posting.  But please do supply some examples of Barack and Michelle applying the Clinton Rules to Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    Michelle (5.00 / 8) (#43)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:28:04 PM EST
    Talking about Hillary's tone as something that she would have to consider if she were to support her candidacy.

    [ Parent ]
    And why (none / 0) (#64)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:37:17 PM EST
    is that an example of the Clinton Rules?

    [ Parent ]
    Figure it out (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:40:57 PM EST
    I find this demi Socratic sophistry rather banal.

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:43:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Look (none / 0) (#77)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:44:27 PM EST
    It's the blogosphere, so I can understand why you wouldn't assume that I am asking in good faith.  But in fact, I am.  I came to this blog because it seemed like the premier outpost on the web for informed Clinton supporters.  I didn't come to bait people, I came to understand the arguments.  But instead of answers, I am being told to stop asking Socratic questions, or to go read the rest of the blog before I can participate in a conversation.

    [ Parent ]
    There's a reason for that (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by rebecca on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:52:45 PM EST
    Try getting the same questions every time you make a statement over and over and over.  After awhile you stop having patience with answering them.  You stop feeling gracious enough to look up the same answers again and again.  It becomes harassment that involves making you go through hoops on questions that have been asked and answered so many times that you really don't care anymore if the person is asking them in good faith.  It's all part of the what Obama really meant game.  You make a statement.  So an Obama supporter makes you back that statement up.  Then the Obama supporter goes into the 2nd part of the game explaining why what Obama clearly said isn't what he really said.  It gets old really fast.

    [ Parent ]
    You'll have to forgive us (3.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:47:57 PM EST
    This argument did not begin today.

    Perhaps someone else is in the mood to bring you up to speed on this debate. I am not.

    [ Parent ]

    AF pardon me for saying so (none / 0) (#83)
    by athyrio on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:47:19 PM EST
    but I think you would argue with a stop sign...

    [ Parent ]
    That's basically what I've been doing! (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:24:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If you are looking for answers (none / 0) (#88)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:48:57 PM EST
    Here's a boatload, if you can read fast (which I think you can; most of us 'internetters' can read almost as fast as we type, heheh.)

    [ Parent ]
    To be clear (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:02:21 PM EST
    I have been following the campaign and am not asking to be brought up to speed on everything that has happened, all the arguments for and against the candidates, or even all the negative comments that have been made by the campaigns or surrogates against each other.  I am trying to understand how Obama and his supporters are applying the "Clinton Rules," defined by Paul Krugman as "treat[ing] any action or statement by the Clintons, no matter how innocuous, as proof of evil intent."  This is a specific accusation, which Krugman did not support, and I am trying to understand it.

    The only arguable evidence I can think of by Obama supporters who are public figures is the MLK/race card saga.  I agree that Hillary's comment was not meant in a racial way.  But I don't believe that the offense this caused in the African American community was insincere or nonexistent, or that it can plausibly be considered an example of the Clinton Rules.  I mean really:  It's African Americans who are out for the Clintons?

    So I really am trying to understand what this particular accusation, which as far as I know has not been made before, is about.  But apparently this has caused offense and annoyance, so I will stop.  

    [ Parent ]

    One more point (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:13:30 PM EST
    I agree that the media is often unfair to Hillary.  That is indeed rather obvious.  I was asking about the Obama campaign as opposed to the media.  And now I'll really get of your hair!  

    [ Parent ]
    According to Obama supporters (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:28:51 PM EST
    that is all I do.

    And then I am treated to many comments explaining "What Obama Meant" and What Michell Obama Meant" and "What David Axelrod Meant" and so on.

    No, I think you know EXACTLY what I am talking about.


    [ Parent ]

    Actually, I don't (none / 0) (#56)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:34:08 PM EST
    I'm new to this blog.  But I have been following the campaign pretty closely, and haven't noticed this alleged phenomenon, which is the topic of this thread, but for which no evidence has been supplied.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (1.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:37:44 PM EST
    then read the archives of this blog to catch up with what we are talking about.

    I do not think it should be required of me to do your research for you.

    [ Parent ]

    For starters (5.00 / 6) (#81)
    by echinopsia on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:45:55 PM EST
    Barack Obama:

    Hillary Clinton is divisive and polarizing.
    She is calculating.
    The Clintons hurt the Democrats.
    UHC mandates will bankrupt you.
    Republicans had all the good ideas in the past 15 years.
    Clinton is shameless.
    She does not respect our people.
    She is willing to say anything to get elected.
    She lies.

    Michelle Obama:
    If you can't run your own house, how can you run the WH. (She's to blame for all the false scandals of the Clinton years, and also for her husband's infidelity)
    I'd "have to think" about supporting Hillary.

    More here.

    [ Parent ]

    Barack statement on Hillary's healt care fight (5.00 / 2) (#209)
    by peon on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:00:36 PM EST
    "When I hear her say it was a lonely fight, I have to disagree. Eighty percent of the American people wanted universal health care at that time. It wasn't that lonely," Obama said, greeted with applause from over 700 attendees at the Cedar Rapids community college where he spoke. "The reason that it became lonely was that she made a decision to close the door and to work just with her people."

    Reality check:

    March 1994 - Democrat John Dingell approaches Carlos Moorhead of California -the senior Republican on his committee -- to raise the possibility of working out a health bill together. According to Dingell, Moorhead responds: "There's no way you're going to get a single vote on this [Republican] side of the aisle. You will not only not get a vote here, but we've been instructed that if we participate in that undertaking at all, those of us who do will lose Our seniority and will not be ranking minority members within the Republican Party." Thwarted on the Republican side of the aisle, Dingell turns back to his Democrats -- and once again finds Jim Cooper standing in his way.

    March 4-5, 1994 - Senate Republicans caucus privately in Annapolis, Maryland, in a retreat organized by Republican John Chafee, whose bill nominally has more support than any other from the Senate GOP. Going into Annapolis, Dole and Chafee still hold the view that public opinion and political prudence require Republicans to come up with an alternative to the Clinton plan. They view the erosion of public support as an opportunity for the Republicans to steal Clinton's thunder, not to block any change.

    At Dole's invitation, Newt Gingrich comes to the meeting. He implicitly warns GOP senators that any Republican concessions will be met with more Democratic demands. Phill Gramm also weighs in against any Republican compromise on health reform. The original list of speakers expands to include business lobbyists and consultants suggested by conservatives. Chafee -- who had hoped to discuss areas of agreement -- finds himself listening to speeches of opposition. This meeting becomes a crucial step, not in forming a Republican alternative to the Clinton plan but in demonstrating to Dole how dangerous it will be for him to be part of any compromise.

    If you want to follow all the sordid details go to PBS  at http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/may96/background/health_debate_page1.html

    [ Parent ]

    OMG (none / 0) (#92)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:50:40 PM EST
    That is a HUGE resource. How long has THAT been around?

    [ Parent ]
    MichelleO doesn't have to control her husband! (5.00 / 1) (#223)
    by Ellie on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:26:03 PM EST
    Responding to the 'Can Hillary control Bill?' cupcake (handed to her by ABC's Deborah Roberts) Michelle Obama said, "Barack and I don't relate to each other that way."

    Granted, her job isn't to make the Clintons look good, but it was borderline sleazy to pile on the ridiculously distorted coverage of their marriage to fuel the Obama strategy of blaming HRC for her unremitting persecution by bigots. (She's "divisive"!)

    A more genuine spokesperson for change would have commented on the treatment of candidates' families on the trail, or about misogyny towards women in office or who wield power at the workplace.

    She had another weasel moment pretending that Bill Clinton's comment about Jesse Jackson's campaigns for office was racist  -- it wasn't -- then when asked  if it upset or enraged her, sadly shaking her head and saying that the comment "didn't surprise" her. (I think I actually gaped at the screen.)

    I initially liked her straightforward style, so this obliqueness to intentionally create damage was not only disappointing but dismaying. As an experienced PR flack, she clearly, consciously chose to propagate the lie to diminish the other campaign AND play victim. She could easily have made her response to a corrected version of the question or brushed aside the poorly based question to make a general statement about racist coverage (and scored more points.)

    My yardstick in these things, since I've known a lot of people who work in media or deal with being in the public eye, is: how many, even in intensely competitive fields like politics, would INTENTIONALLY propagate what they know to be a serious, personally damaging falsehood about someone? Even the slickest operators from shark infested feeding grounds stay away from stuff like that.

    Lamentably, she even gilded her cynical moment (and herself) by adding that she knows this is how politics works. Were this the case, then doing the worse thing when the campaign's main promise is to change how things work is double-douche.

    A real "forgive them cause they know not what they do when they stone those slut Clintons in the marketplace" kind of moment. (And please, don't anyone tell me that propagating a lie is the same as spinning the truth in one's favor and at someone else's expense, which is par for the course. The former, however, is straight out of the Rove cookbook.)

    [ Parent ]

    Um (none / 0) (#53)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:32:39 PM EST
    Read: Every speech where he claims he is above politics, and not beholden to corporate interests. He is very much on the take from corporate interests, as much as Hillary.

    As for Michelle, I don't have that info. I just think it's divisive, as Barack says Hillary is, to not be immediately ready to support the Dem candidate whether it is your husband or not.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama in SC (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:27:08 PM EST
    He kept talking about the Oke Doke, and it was directed at the Clintons, not the Republicans. The wink and the nudge that the Clinton's tricked the AA in the past.

    [ Parent ]
    I believe (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:31:22 PM EST
    supplying an example, in a the blogosphere, means a link, or at least a specific reference.  To be clear, though, the question isn't whether Obama supporters have criticized the Clintons, it's whether they have applied the so-called "Clinton Rules."

    [ Parent ]
    Do you doubt I have provided examples (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:35:03 PM EST
    AT THIS BLOG?

    [ Parent ]
    So in order to understand your point (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by AF on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:39:52 PM EST
    I am supposed to go back and read the entire blog up to now?  You can't supply an example for the point you are presently making?  I don't mean to be rude.  But I don't think I'm asking too much for someone to link, on this thread, to a couple of specific examples of what the thread is supposed to be about.

    [ Parent ]
    Not the entire blog (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:42:46 PM EST
    But I do not plan on rehashing an argument that has carried forth for 3 years.

    Indeed, you have to go to daily kos and read my work there as well.

    If you do not want to, then that is your choice.

    [ Parent ]

    I am so annoyed (1.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Kathy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:05:21 PM EST
    by these folks that come onto TL and try to make their own rules.  We all agree when we post to the terms.  To not lurk for a while before jumping in, then on top of that to come out firing against people, is just wrong.

    [ Parent ]
    sorry bucko (none / 0) (#76)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:43:53 PM EST
    that's not his job to do your research. He's provided examples, numerous and easy to find, and you sit there on your thumbs complaining about how he's not spoon-feeding you examples which you will likely ignore or reply with a typical 'What Obama Really Meant' response.

    It isn't worth his time. (apologies for using masculine pronoun - I don't remember if BTD is gender-neutral or otherwise).

    [ Parent ]

    Oke Doke (none / 0) (#231)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:45:18 PM EST
    As a member of the Krugman cult ... (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Mimir on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:30:05 PM EST
    Could we get some more specifics on why Krugman "is wrong on many things?"  

    I've been reading him since 2000, and I have to say his track record in being RIGHT is fairly impressive.  A Cassandra for our times, as he tried in vain to warn against the Bush (s)election, the Bush tax cuts, the Iraq invasion, the housing bubble, etc.

    In the column (none / 0) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:36:24 PM EST
    I think he is wrong to think Obama will not get good Media treatment in a GE.

    And as a general matter, when you opine as much as Krugman, you get a lot fo things wrong. He gets most of them right.

    [ Parent ]

    Both of you are just guessing (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:47:46 PM EST
    as are we all, concerning possible media treatment of Obama by the media in a GE.  We'll never know for sure until and unless it is tested.

    For me, the question is, why wouldn't Obama get the same treatment from the media that every Democrat has since JFK?  Every single one in my memory...

    Two media darlings...Obama and McCain...who would be favord?  History says McCain, wouldn't you say?  

    Add to that, it's McCain's last hurrah...Obama's first.  Will the media play on that theme as well?  I think they will, accenting the war hero status for all it's worth.  Remains to be seen what that value is for a candidate who talks about being in Iraq 100 years.

    [ Parent ]

    Both of us are (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:50:13 PM EST
    offering our opinions. All we can do on that really.

    [ Parent ]
    Yup. I agree. (none / 0) (#116)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:59:57 PM EST
    I haven't been reading and blogging full time this past week so I probably missed any discussion re your assessment of why the media will not turn on Obama in the GE.

    Have 'we' covered that?

    [ Parent ]

    frankly, (none / 0) (#124)
    by english teacher on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:02:59 PM EST
    i'll be much more concerned if the DON'T turn on him  if he gets the nomination.  

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly! (none / 0) (#175)
    by magisterludi on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:28:39 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Krugman (none / 0) (#108)
    by tek on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:57:46 PM EST
     As I stated earlier, the Republicans I know are licking their chops for Obama to be the candidate because the Republicans already have a media campaign to destroy him. They claim they have tons of dirt on Obama--he hasn't had to be confronted with any of that so far.  Add that in to the punditry, I don't think he'll have an easy time of it.

    Democrats forget too, it's possible to guilt liberals into voting for an AA because we're so sensitive about racism. Republicans are not. They're proud of it and they don't want a black president. The majority of them truly believe Obama's a Muslim and they fear that he is a terrorist. One can only imagine how that will get played up.

    I already saw a tabloid cover this morning at the grocery store claiming Barack Obama is having an affair with Oprah Winfrey.

    [ Parent ]

    They can't hold Obama's feet to the fire (5.00 / 4) (#65)
    by SandyK on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:37:20 PM EST
    Sadly, because it'll be turned into a race issue. I'm from the South, and my whole street voted for Obama based solely on race (it's openly discussed). If Hillary fights him too aggressively, Blacks will consider it an attack on him and by extension them (Bill's defense in SC really alienated them).

    Hillary walks a fine line between 2 worlds. One that's accepted as "fair game" to attack (gender); the other (race) can't be touched with a ten foot pole. It's become that polarized and PCed. This is a disadvantage for her, and one I wish I knew had an answer to fix, as it is unfair. It's so bad that if I get a Hillary sign and place it on my lawn, I'm afraid those very same Obama voters will take it as an attack on them, when it's a preference for another reason, gender.

    Personally, believe that Obama is getting a free ride. Not only due to race, but gender, and that to me is the insulting part. The media and beyond still wants a man first (no matter the race), it's trumps gender.

    Really need to brainstorm this, to find a workaround without alienating the very votes Clinton needs.

    Keep your head up (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by talkingpoint on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:45:14 PM EST
     i'm being call an uncle tom because I support hillary. Most people just don't undersand how hard it s for African Americans to make it known to fellow Blacks tht they suport Hillary, because we simply believe her to be the best qualiied. This thing as become more aout race in the black community tha most would admit and want to realize. How can we talk aganst White racism when most of us have turned from hillary because she is running against a Black man. are we any better? No.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by SandyK on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:13:00 PM EST
    But the media won't report it.

    And the worst thing they did was report about it in SC. Turned the White vote against Hillary, and the Black vote didn't want a part of it. It was insulting all over.

    Whites are voting for Obama due to guilt and believe it will attone for 200 years of injustice. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Money and gifts don't do the attonement, it's daily action.

    Only a little over 3,000 voted for Hillary in my county (I'm on the border between GA/SC) and one of the few Democrat strong holds here left, where quad-triple that voted for Obama. Sis and I did our part to vote for Hillary, but we're stuck in trying to promote the vote. Sis is sick of the Obama talk at work, and any effort to counter it gets the, "oh, she's upperity" look.

    How do you counter this divide? It's like a 10 foot high wall, and there's no latter tall enough to get over it.

    Wished Hillary campaigned more in this locale. I would've walked 10 miles to see her if she showed up. But didn't even get that opportunity. She really needs to visit these cities, as it can and does energize the votes. It's not Atlanta, but 20,000+ votes can decide things now.

    Come on Hillary, start stumping hard. Break down the barriers and let votes see who you really are -- not some soundbite on TV.

    [ Parent ]

    There are three Hillary signs in my yard (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by echinopsia on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:58:30 PM EST
    (I have a big yard on a corner lot).

    I have three backups in case they are stolen, defaced, or if anyone else wants one.

    After I put my signs out, others appeared. Did my signs influence that? I don't know.

    All I know is that it is ridiculous and frightening that supporters of one Dem candidate are afraid to put out signs for fear of what another Dem candidate's followers will do. In America?

    [ Parent ]

    It IS that bad (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by SandyK on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:27:46 PM EST
    There's some truce going on, since the normally very active Democrat campaigner at the corner has no signs in his yard. I was more than a little surprised, because during the 2000 election, there were signs all over his yard and up the street. There are no signs period in this whole area -- and I mean for miles -- no Hillary and no Obama. It's a covert situation.

    If I place a Hillary sign in my yard and upset this status quo, I'm afraid of more than sign defacement -- like a rock through a window.

    I'm going to get those signs, and I'll travel all the way on the bus back home with them in hand. But folks that's a lot of courage. Not only going against the local favorite, against the good ol' boys who are still staunachly Republican. I'll do it because my sisters faced worse to vote, but most won't and that's the problem. And because I'm so angry because of this, I'm going to make an ERA banner and place it there, too. Careless what anyone thinks, I want a woman president -- this doesn't come everyday.

    [ Parent ]

    It really is too bad (none / 0) (#71)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:41:07 PM EST
    Hillary isn't black, too. Then all of that silliness would go away.

    But then, nobody would vote for her, because 'she's a clinton'. wink.

    You have to ask yourself, what if Obama had been a Clinton? Would the media be able to get away with blatantly racist rhetoric because of that?

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly... (none / 0) (#78)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:44:39 PM EST
    Axelrod was looking to turn AA community on the Clintons. The whole Jessie Jackson charade of racism, was the most cynical use of race card ever contrived. This will go down in history as one of the most brilliant or devilish manipulations of a throw away comment by Bill Clinton. Now, any Obama criticism can and will be manipulated. Hillary and Bill can never mention the anointed one.

    [ Parent ]
    I will (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by tek on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:02:13 PM EST
    always believe this is why Dick Durbin pushed Obama to run. What other way to defeat Hillary than run a black man and split the Party? The Clintons can't use their traditional hard-hitting defense against smears, because then they're accused of racism. As Krugman said, they haven't even said anything racist, and yet, Bill Clinton had to apologize for something he never said. That's just too surreal for me. I'm done with the Democrats over this debacle.

    [ Parent ]
    Edwards cancelled (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by talkingpoint on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:39:32 PM EST
    his meeting with obama. The best thng that can happen is that after Obama big wins tomorrow (due to the African American populaion in those states)is for Edwards to come out abd enorse Hillary. That will stop all of Obama's momentum for Wisconsin (Hillary best chance until March 4th).

    I would be shocked... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by doordiedem0crat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:53:09 PM EST
    if Edwards used his influence specifically to minimize Obama's momentum. Especially when there is a 50% chance of shooting himself in the foot.

    I believe he will remain neutral until after the March primaries.

    [ Parent ]

    I think the same (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by lisadawn82 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:55:45 PM EST
    I'm hoping, but I really don't know, that Edwards does not endorse anyone.  

    [ Parent ]
    Where did you read this? I'd like to see it for (none / 0) (#113)
    by Angel on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:59:12 PM EST
    myself and get a feel for what it says.  Thanks!

    [ Parent ]
    This thread lacks all perspective (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by tnthorpe on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:50:02 PM EST
    Really folks, the target ought to be McCain and the perpetual war machine that's draining the economy, destroying our rights, and pulling the US ever backward among nations.

    HIllary isn't inevitable and Obama isn't the golden boy. His change and unity message is pretty boringly anodyne. Her experience message isn't a great deal better.

    The media is unfair--wow, there's a colossal insight.

    Do the people on this thread want to win in November, or stand around and peck each other to death?

    Winning in November is a means (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:51:20 PM EST
    not an end.

    You miss the point of my post and Krugman's column entirely.

    [ Parent ]

    no I haven't missed the point (1.00 / 1) (#99)
    by tnthorpe on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:54:47 PM EST
    I'm not impressed by whining.

    You are missing the point of the primary season apparently.

    [ Parent ]

    Whining? Since when is telling the truth (none / 0) (#119)
    by Angel on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:01:27 PM EST
    "whining?"  The discussion here is the fact that the media hold different standards when reporting about HRC and any other Clinton family member.  Obama is given a pass.  We are not whining, just discussing this hideous phenomenon.

    [ Parent ]
    Since you do not address the point (none / 0) (#134)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:06:48 PM EST
    I can only assume you missed it.

    "Whining" is what you call it. You still focus on the means and not the end.

    I think you prove conclusively you do not get it at all.

    [ Parent ]

    oh brother (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by tnthorpe on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:14:38 PM EST
    the self-satisfied tone of your post simply documents my point

    this isn't a conversation

    you don't seem to able to have one

    [ Parent ]

    I am not satisfied at all (none / 0) (#158)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:16:50 PM EST
    That you miss the point.
    '
    It is a failing in me that you continue to avoid my point.

    The key words - "means" and "ends."

    [ Parent ]

    Reputation (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:52:15 PM EST
     
    ..."Clinton rules" -- the term a number of observers use for the way pundits and some news organizations treat any action or statement by the Clintons, no matter how innocuous, as proof of evil intent.

    How is this different from reputation?  When your attack dogs describe complaining women as trailer trash it tends to set your reputation.

    Signature Song

    You have no problem with Krugman (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by halstoon on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:56:14 PM EST
    advancing the "Obama fans are a cult" line, but then Rich is eviscerated for pointing out Hillary's ridiculous tactics, and their failings.

    Way to be fair about it all, you guys.

    Krugman at least does tell these truths, which you all don't apparently believe or want highlighted:

    "Both have broad support among the party's grass roots and are favorably viewed by Democratic voters."

    "Supporters of each candidate should have no trouble rallying behind the other if he or she gets the nod."

    I really think Krugman would have you focus on those lines. That seems to be his actual thesis.

    I did not write a post about Rich's column (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:02:08 PM EST
    But I must ask, do you support that column?

    Please answer.

    [ Parent ]

    I think Rich was wrong for the personal attacks (none / 0) (#207)
    by halstoon on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:00:21 PM EST
    like accusing her of intentionally avoiding having black voters ask her a question. That was way unfair.

    I support his assertion that making this process about race and sex is bad for the party, which is essentially how he ends his column.

    I also support him calling her campaign out for its blatant lies about Latinos and black politicians. She shouldn't be allowed to get away with that.

    Finally, I would just like to say that I wish both sides would drop the demographic fighting they both engage in. It is bad for Democrats, and if they both really care about the people, the party, and the country, they'll stop it.

    I also think you should stop promoting the cult line. You and Jeralyn are both really smart people, and I don't think you need to use tactics like that to advance your arguments.

    Wouldn't you agree that an election based on logos would enter the fall stronger than one based on pathos? Especially if that pathos-based argument leaves people angry and divided?

    At least that is how it should be.

    [ Parent ]

    Fran k Rich played by the Clinton Rules.

    That is why I was surprised you brought it up.

    [ Parent ]

    I guess you missed this (none / 0) (#224)
    by halstoon on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:26:15 PM EST
    Read it here and then look at Sergio Bendixen's comments here

    Then note back in Rich's column that Hillary claimed Bendixen was citing a historical reality, but then Rodriguez called her on it.

    But you already know all this, I'm sure. You just don't want to admit it.

    You also didn't address my questions to you about the rhetoric and focus of the campaigns. Care to answer?

    [ Parent ]

    Being wrong is not lying (none / 0) (#234)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:53:58 PM EST
    Bendixen was wrong.

    As for the campaign rhetoric, are you really arguing that Clinton has focused on race? You are a fool if you say that.  A compelte fool.

    The Obama campaign focused on race, under the radar as much as possible of course.

    [ Parent ]

    You are completely off the reservation (none / 0) (#237)
    by halstoon on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 04:00:48 PM EST
    It was a mistake? It has been Obama pumping race below the radar??

    Did Obama bring Jesse Jackson into the discussion? Did Obama's supporter say that Latinos don't support blacks?

    I did think you were a fair person, but now I see you're just a shill for the Clintons.

    [ Parent ]

    If you're going to complain (none / 0) (#242)
    by SandyK on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 04:10:54 PM EST
    Don't use rhetoric that's completely racist to begin with. "Off the reservation", is NOT pleasant. Next thing from you will be black face and watermelon jokes, huh? >:(

    [ Parent ]
    you probably know more of those jokes than me (none / 0) (#251)
    by halstoon on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 04:29:47 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Favorite tactic (none / 0) (#250)
    by echinopsia on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 04:28:57 PM EST
    Of Obamafans who don't like to face the truth: If you disagree with me, Hillary made you say it.

    Here is a timeline of what happened in SC, with all the racial crap that Obama's camp started:

    Following the South Carolina primary, both Mitchell and Tim Russert claimed on Nightly News and Today that the leadership of the Democratic Party is "mad as hell" at Bill Clinton for "attacking" Obama, and are lining up to back the Illinois senator. No sources were offered to substantiate the accusation.

    ...

    Unlike Florida, Clinton's New Hampshire win was not blacked out on television, but accusations of racism surfaced in the days that followed. On-air pundits and Obama surrogates suggested white voters had defied their publicly declared support of the African American candidate in the secrecy of the polling booth. During the same week, Clinton made a speech in South Carolina tying Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech to President Johnson's signing of the 1964 Cvil Rights Act, highlighting the role of Johnson. A senior advisor to Obama circulated a 4-page memorandum urging surrogates to slam Clinton for being disrespectful to King.

    If you tracked the coverage of the ensuing feud between the two campaigns, you would never know that this it was this memo that sparked the race-card accusations. Before the smoking gun showed up on the internet, Obama claimed in a television interview thea neither he nor anyone on his staff had accused Senator Clinton of insensivity. He added that he was "baffled" by her suggestion that they were involved. When the dust cleared, the media downplayed both the Obama memo and subsequent denial. Former President Clinton, however, continues to be barbecued over several angry comments uttered on the campaign trail in defense of his wife. (He also, incidentally, blasted the media's role in disseminating the racism talking points of Obama staffers.)

    Intelligent and astute, Hillary herself has historically shied away from personal attacks, whether it comes from sexist New York firefighters or Chris Matthews of MSNBC's Hardball. (Her campaign recently cut off relations with the network when another MSNBC reporter declared that the Clintons had "pimped-out" daughter Chelsea in order to win superdelegates.)



    [ Parent ]
    I forgot (none / 0) (#252)
    by echinopsia on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 04:30:56 PM EST
    replace nouns (none / 0) (#123)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:02:56 PM EST
    where it says Obama, replace it with anyone else. Observe your feelings changing from Anger to Alarm.

    [ Parent ]
    I have a hard time (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:07:54 PM EST
    Taking Mr. Krugman seriously when he says something like this.

    . I'm not the first to point out that the Obama campaign seems dangerously close to becoming a cult of personality. We've already had that from the Bush administration -- remember Operation Flight Suit? We really don't want to go there again.

    Comparing either candidate to George Bush should be clearly beyond acceptable bounds.  

    But I guess that's ok because it doesn't violate the "Clinton Rules".

    I, myself, heard Obama (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by oldpro on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:12:32 PM EST
    talk about not wanting "Bush-Cheney lite" ... more than once.

    You missed that theme?

    [ Parent ]

    A very fair rejoinder (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:13:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    That's a fair point (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:13:07 PM EST
    He should not have written that.

    [ Parent ]
    If the shoe fits (none / 0) (#146)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:12:01 PM EST
    Cults of Personality don't abide by 'the rules'. People loved Bush DESPITE the facts on hand. Same with Obama. It's not Krugman's fault he's calling it like it is.

    [ Parent ]
    I like Krugman (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:15:29 PM EST
    Find him one of the most credible out there. Not willing to let him off so easily for that analogy though.  One was a publicity stunt calling a war won, and the other is a campaign following coming on the heels of surviving president codpiece.  Very different men and very different circumstances.

    [ Parent ]
    I can accept your reasoning (none / 0) (#163)
    by blogtopus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:21:00 PM EST
    I just don't like it when something, which, in my opinion, is a reasonable thing to say (similarities with regards to unquestioning support in a election setting, vitriolic defensiveness, and unwavering loyalty in the face of undeniable facts) is immediately condemned because it 'goes over the line'. I don't believe in sacred cows, or the opposite either, that some things just shouldn't be said.

    That said, I can see where you're coming from. Peace. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Ditto and Peace :-) (none / 0) (#179)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:29:59 PM EST


    [ Parent ]