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Dow Plunging: Down 400+, Er 500+ . . .

Boy that bailout really did the trick didn't it? Dow down 400+.

Anyone have any cheery news? How about this - in 106 days, George W. Bush will no longer be the President of the United States.

Here is a joke to cheer you up, from Annie Hall:

Two elderly women are at a Catskills mountain resort, and one of 'em says, "Boy, the food at this place is really terrible." The other one says, "Yeah, I know, and such small portions." Well, that's essentially how I feel about life. Full of loneliness and misery and suffering and unhappiness, and it's all over much too quickly.

Didn't that cheer you up?

This is an Open Thread.

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    About GWB... (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Fabian on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:44:46 AM EST
    He could have been booted out any time the Democrat Congress had wanted to.  GWB going his full term is hardly a reason to celebrate.

    Is cowardice a prerequisite for election to Congress?

    geez (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by connecticut yankee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:47:23 AM EST
    I read this morning that Europe is about to pass a kidney stone.

    Are we all Americans now? (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Fabian on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:53:35 AM EST
    Sorry, someone was talking about post 9-11.  Now we aren't sure who the bad guys were or are, ditto for the good guys.  

    I think President Bush has just made perhaps his biggest contribution to his "legacy".  I want to see Condi Rice telling us that "history will decide" again just for laughs.

    Parent

    I love that, WE ARE ALL AMERICANS NOW (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:57:48 AM EST
    Our economy is much more global than most people understand.  We are turning into one big pocket book with each passing day and yeah, we are all Americans now.  I so agree about Bush's legacy too.  I'd like to see how they will figure out he saved us all by destroying us all.

    Parent
    Can we all be Europeans?... (5.00 / 8) (#27)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:05:12 AM EST
    I mean if the world is going bankrupt, can we at least get a couple more weeks paid vacation before the game is over?...:)

    Parent
    And have the stores (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:08:21 AM EST
    close on Sunday?

    Parent
    As long as I can get some fresh bread (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by scribe on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:12:31 AM EST
    for with breakfast Sunday, I'm down with that.

    The thing about having "long Saturday" and "short Saturday" and limited evening hours is that it keeps smaller, family-owned businesses in operation (or seems to, anyway) and facilitates having community organizations that actually can meet and conduct business.

    Moreover, since customers (i.e., people who work at jobs elsewhere) can't be told to go shopping at 10 PM or on Sunday afternoon, their bosses will have to back down on demanding additional time at work during the week.  After all, if you can't do your shopping, you aren't a happy employee.  

    Parent

    I read the Irish Tiger is whimpering (none / 0) (#73)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:05:06 AM EST
    after two decades of a phenomenal economy.  Property values and the construction boom have crashed.

    But Ireland and several other European countries have stemmed it by guaranteeing all bank accounts for two years.  All, up to any amount, period.  And they didn't need to do it with bailout bills.

    Interesting.

    Parent

    Oh, and I also read this morning (none / 0) (#81)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:13:58 AM EST
    that my state employees' retirement fund has lost lots of its value, and that was a month ago -- it has lost a lot more that has yet to show up in the end-of-September reports.  And I don't want to think about the reports to come for how much it has lost and still will lose this month.  Of course, current retirees are fine, as payments are set on the average growth of the fund for the past five years.

    So by the time I can retire -- a date pushed back again now -- the payments will be set on the years ahead that will, we are told, suck for the stock market and thus for the state employee fund.  Of course, the impact will not just be on us.  All those young uns who want our jobs will just have to wait longer for us to leave -- or be carried out of our offices in coffins.

    Parent

    Us young uns (none / 0) (#140)
    by CST on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 02:54:26 PM EST
    Don't want your jobs yet.  We want you to keep working so you can help us pay for social security so that by the time it's our turn there might be something left.

    Parent
    Actually, a lot of young uns (none / 0) (#141)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 03:50:49 PM EST
    want my job.  Astonishing number of applicants for every opening . . . but there are and will be even fewer openings now.  So a lot of the young uns are working a couple of parttime positions -- as did I, putting on 25,000 miles a year to do so.  But they will have to do so for far longer, and the mileage will cost a lot more.

    Parent
    Oh, also (none / 0) (#142)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 03:52:08 PM EST
    that's not how Social Security is funded.  I'm paying for the retirees now, you'll pay for me -- and you better have lots of kids to pay for you.

    Parent
    I know (none / 0) (#144)
    by CST on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 04:00:36 PM EST
    We need your help to continue paying for the current retirees.

    Also, it would be great if there were enough jobs for both age groups...

    Parent

    the Times reporting in the last couple of days (none / 0) (#117)
    by Christy1947 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:40:15 PM EST
    on Europe has been that they are disgusted, because a lot of the problems they are having are of European origin, not simply imports from the North American morons. The British and Spanish housing bubbles were bigger than ours.

    Parent
    Sweet Gawd I hope so. (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by Faust on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:02:53 AM EST


    I've got good stock.... (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:02:56 AM EST
    on assorted varieties of Chef Boyardee is anybody is at risk of not eating...my door is always unlocked.

    And if you need investment advice...I like the Saints -3 and the over tonight.

    Repeating myself (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:04:41 AM EST
     Old Greek mother, years ago said about Papa Bush, "that family has the mark of the devil, they are bad for America".  I hated it whenever she was right, but she was right often.  

    I want some lessons in being able (none / 0) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:08:12 AM EST
    to see the devil aura.

    Parent
    Don't know... (none / 0) (#33)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:08:48 AM EST
    she was creepy.  

    Parent
    She was gifted :) (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:12:15 AM EST
    You can't see it? (none / 0) (#134)
    by oldpro on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:58:23 PM EST
    Everyone I know can see it.

    It's on the ballot and in the ads...right after their names...it's an "R"  (or in some cases, "GOP" since the polls in WA State revealed that 10% of voters think GOP means Democrat - arggggghhhh).

    Parent

    And we still have one more, at least, (none / 0) (#40)
    by Teresa on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:14:00 AM EST
    to go. Sometimes I think they let this current mess happen now to get Obama elected so he has to deal with all these disasters and then they can run Jeb against him. Do you think George has tarnished the family name enough to rid us of them for good? What about the nephew?

    Parent
    LOL.... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:17:16 AM EST
    What about the nephew...I think I just heard he's applying for a name change:)

    The name Bush is the new Mudd:)

    Parent

    The nephew is named George, too, I (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Teresa on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:40:19 AM EST
    think. George P. Bush? He'd better change all of his names. :)

    Parent
    I'm partial to.... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:47:40 AM EST
    McLovin' myself..in case he's looking for suggestions:)

    Parent
    Fyi, the Mudd name no longer is mud (none / 0) (#82)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:15:30 AM EST
    as the good doctor was pardoned recently, if quite retroactively.  I know a Mudd, a member of the family that has fought for the pardon for years.

    Parent
    Sounds good to me.... (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:25:23 AM EST
    No doubt Dr. Mudd got a bad rap.

    From this day forth, let it be known that the saying should go "thy name is Bush".

    Parent

    I thought (none / 0) (#95)
    by eric on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:39:14 AM EST
    Mudd was pardoned by Andrew Johnson?  That's what wikipedia says, anyway.

    Parent
    Interesting. The term for what the family (none / 0) (#99)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:46:09 AM EST
    wanted, then, must be something different -- maybe an apology?  Or some legalism I don't know, but it matters to them.  (Thanks for correcting me on that -- if, of course, Wikipedia is correct.)

    Parent
    Looking (none / 0) (#104)
    by eric on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:01:05 PM EST
    at this a little more, it is clear that he was pardoned by Johnson.  What the family was looking for was for the conviction to be vacated.  Doesn't look like that ever happened, though.

    Parent
    After the Fannie article in the Times yesterday (none / 0) (#119)
    by Christy1947 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:41:36 PM EST
    Mudd is not so good either. Roger's son was the last Ceo of Fannie and looks not so good in the reporting either.

    Parent
    Jeb is at least competent (none / 0) (#96)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:39:18 AM EST
    by all accounts.

    Parent
    More Woody Allen (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:05:21 AM EST
    I have a very pessimistic view of life.  I feel that life is - is divided up into the horrible and the miserable. Those are the two categories, you know. The - the horrible would be like, um, I don't know, terminal cases, you know, and blind people, crippled. I don't know how they get through life. It's amazing to me. You know, and the miserable is everyone else. That's - that's - so - so - when you go through life - you should be thankful that you're miserable because you're very lucky to be miserable.

    Celebrate your miserableness!!

    Yesterday on talk radio I heard (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by Faust on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:14:10 AM EST
    some lady apologizing for voting for Bush. She said she did it because she was mad at Bill Clinton for sleeping with Monica Lewinsky. I wanted to kill myself.

    A commentator (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Lahdee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:16:43 AM EST
    on CNN attributes the drop in the Dow today as the market expressing concern that "the fundamentals of the economy are not good."


    "I'm on the right side of the dirt." (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:18:09 AM EST
    Comment by a friend this week.  I hadn't heard this expression before.

    That's a good one.... (none / 0) (#48)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:22:30 AM EST
    I hear "still above ground" quite a bit.

    Parent
    I use (none / 0) (#52)
    by scribe on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:26:49 AM EST
    "not breathing dirt yet" pretty frequently, as the situation demands.

    Parent
    Other good news... (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:21:55 AM EST
    The Euro is cheaper.  

    On the Media (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Faust on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:26:00 AM EST
    A quote from Niklas Luhman:

    The programme strand of news and in-depth reporting is most clearly recognizable as involving the production/processing of information. In this strand the mass media disseminate ignorance in the form of facts which must be continually renewed so that no one notices.



    The BBC sez that (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by liminal on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:04:57 AM EST
    the ad hoc nature of the European rescues has added to the crisis.  The EU agreed to some sort of coordinated response to the financial emergency, but in truth, the monetary power of the EU lies in the individual countries, not in the EU itself, and that the individual countries have failed to coordinate their rescue strategies.  No coherent vision, or something.

    They also pointed out that all of these bailouts mean, in some form or another, significant loss of existing shareholder equity, which leads to more pessimism.  

    Palin is wearing an entire ensemble (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:15:44 AM EST
    of summer white today and ummmm it is way past Labor Day. Sorry, but those of us who grew up worrying about our attire are appalled, even Grandma Vera is trust me :)  Some beauty queen.  I suppose all whites are winter white in Alaska.  I'm forever stunted by my lower 48 upbringing.

    She obviously never saw (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:39:35 AM EST
    Serial Mom.  

    Parent
    What about people like me? (5.00 / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:56:39 AM EST
    Serial Voter?

    Parent
    You sure did a 180 on (none / 0) (#107)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:04:14 PM EST
    the bail out.  

    Parent
    Not really (none / 0) (#111)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:15:50 PM EST
    I wasn't for getting on bended knee to give a bail out without HOLC and the government being given shares in those they must bail out, and I most definitely wasn't for bail out without oversight or bail out without a plan to pay taxpayers back once financial stability has been reattained.  I got those things....maybe not exactly HOLC but I got the groundwork for HOLC.  The two bills are very different.  I was not for the first, I can stomach the second and agree that that is our only best option to an impossible situation.  The bailout is not going to fix what many attempted to trumpet that it was going to fix though.  It never had that capability and I did argue with those who were making claims that it did or could.  BushCo was trying to shock doctrine the House into giving him what he wanted and they wouldn't do it.

    Parent
    I figured you owned stock in (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:32:23 PM EST
    a business making wooden shafts for arrows marketed to kids.

    Parent
    Do they follow those "rules" in FLA (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by nycstray on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:52:05 AM EST
    and other hot spots? I can't remember if they did in SoCal as I always worn black, lol!~

    Parent
    I'm here in the land of Southern Belles (none / 0) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:58:39 AM EST
    right above the panhandle at the heartbeat of the pageant world Dothan AL. No girl around here is caught dead wearing white right now.

    Parent
    I bought a white skirt (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:02:05 PM EST
    in late July and was feeling some pressure to wear it before Labor Day.  But, a friend whose white skirts I admired sd.:  we're in Southern California.  Just wear it when the weather is hot.  So there you have it.  

    Do the stores still feature "cruise wear"?  Lots of white in those collections.

    Parent

    pfft.......elitest (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:08:19 PM EST
    white wearin CA latte sipper

    Parent
    Question... (none / 0) (#110)
    by CST on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:11:59 PM EST
    Is no white just for below the waist, like shoes and skirts and pants?  Or does it apply to shirts too?  What about if you have to wear it for work?

    Honestly, I had never even heard of the no white rule until I saw... Serial Mom

    Parent

    White blouse can happen (5.00 / 0) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:17:49 PM EST
    White jacket or blazer cannot.  You can wear winter white though.

    Parent
    It's good to be a guy..... (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:19:42 PM EST
    as long as what you're wearing didn't come out of the hamper, you're golden:)

    Parent
    Either you didn't grow up (none / 0) (#114)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:29:58 PM EST
    in the Midwest, or the "rules" changed there since I left.  

    Parent
    I didn't grow up in the midwest (none / 0) (#130)
    by CST on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:34:43 PM EST
    Kdog - it only matters if you let it matter - male or female.  I am more than willing to bear the wrath of the fashion police to wear whatever I want.

    Parent
    Of course you're right.... (none / 0) (#139)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 02:31:06 PM EST
    In fact, with the metrosexual revolution and all, guys are often worse than the ladies with this stuff.

    Parent
    And Dubya has hit main street (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:24:33 AM EST
    on CNN and has said he has talked to some small business owners today and the credit crunch is affecting them.  Now he is parading around the rescue bill as him figuring this problem out and this is why we sent him to D.C....to figure out problems.  I don't think that bill is going to free up much money for main street in the short term...that money is not likely to trickle down to them.  He is having to actually think right now and his forehead is deeply creased.  He says he's in Texas, I bet he's spending the rest of his presidency hiding at the ranch.  Whenever he is in deep doo doo he can be found at the ranch in the middle of no where with nothing but brush and ranch dogs in his face.  And since he makes the secret service wear wranglers and ropers while they are there I guess you can even pretend they aren't the secret service.....they are just ranch hands in his little ranch world.  What an idiot!

    Waxman Hearing On Lehman (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by santarita on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:37:01 AM EST
    I'm watching the hearings now.

    The narrative of the meltdown is now hardening...

     In these hearings Democrats  are blaming  poor supervision, excess executive compensation and incompetent boards and only ask questions about this.

    Republicans have already decided that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are culpable and will only ask questions about this.  This is because the Republican Congress actually proposed some regulatory reform for those entities in 2005.  So they have to inflate the importance of Fannie and Freddie to score what little political points they can.

    Me too (none / 0) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:59:50 AM EST
    Waxman asking CEO about his billion dollar art collection.

    Parent
    But that art collection (none / 0) (#106)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:03:20 PM EST
    will benefit an art museum at some future date.  A quandry.

    Parent
    Now I know you're snarking (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:06:51 PM EST
    Either that or you are watching too.  This dude doesn't say more than 40 words a minute, any way he can CYA.  He is choosing every single word very carefully.

    Parent
    I was thinking about how angry I (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:05:13 PM EST
    get when I see a museum exhibit of, say Monet or Matisse or Van Gogh, in which some paintings are labeled "private collection."  And I've never even seen photos of the painting before.  Really aggravating.  

    Parent
    The last line of Annie Hall (5.00 / 0) (#123)
    by Dadler on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:58:40 PM EST
    ALVY'S VOICE-OVER
    After that it got pretty late.  And we both hadda go, but it was great seeing Annie again, right?  I realized what a terrific person she was and-and how much fun it was just knowing her and I-I thought of that old joke, you know, this-
    this-this guy goes to a psychiatrist and says, "Doc, uh, my brother's crazy.  He thinks he's a chicken." And, uh, the doctor says, "Well, why don't you turn him in?" And the guy says, "I would, but I need the eggs." Well, I guess that's pretty much how how I feet about
    relationships.  You know, they're totally
    irrational and crazy and absurd and ...
    but, uh, I guess we keep goin' through it
    because, uh, most of us need the eggs.

    start counting those chickens, people.

    Have you seen VickyChristinaBarcelona? (none / 0) (#126)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    If you close your eyes, you hear Mia Farrow and Diane Keaton, although they aren't in this particular movie.  

    Parent
    Almost down 500 now (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:39:57 AM EST
    ugh.

    Memories... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Steve M on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:27:07 AM EST
    The price of gas is down. (none / 0) (#2)
    by Fabian on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:40:58 AM EST
    Almost down to the prices this time last year!

    Now don't you feel so much better?

    Let me know when the milk prices (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by nycstray on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:09:45 AM EST
    drop back down!

    Parent
    Hey, I just got home from the grocery store (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:14:42 AM EST
    and was welcomed by this but milk had dropped 20 cents a gallon sometime this week where I live.

    Parent
    First of the month (none / 0) (#49)
    by nycstray on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:24:07 AM EST
    I forgot about that. Many states adjust monthly. We have a cap and each month it's set and they can only price higher if they meet certain qualifications.

    Thanks for the heads up on the lower price!  :D

    Parent

    Not down much in my town (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:17:44 AM EST
    reports the spouse, just back from a stop at the pump.  We often have the highest prices in the country, owing to a special sort of gas we have to use, owing in turn to ozone problems -- owing in turn to air pollution from Chicago and Gary that floats north.  Nice.

    Parent
    Wisconsin also has higher state gas taxes, I think (none / 0) (#128)
    by DFLer on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:17:46 PM EST
    Yep, every vice except beer (none / 0) (#135)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:59:08 PM EST
    is taxed to the max here.  Ciggie prices are out of sight, too (so causing a lot of border crossings).  But the courageous legislator who suggested amid all our budget problems that we raise the tax on beer for the first time in a generation got nowhere with that one.

    And it's not for the breweries, as few are still here.  It's a break for the boozers, as Wisconsin leads the country in drinking while driving.  Just a warning for those considering a scenic drive here.

    Parent

    Sad when.... (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:46:08 AM EST
    your eyes light up at 3.49 a gallon and you think you're getting a deal.

    Better down than up, that's for sure...unless you're an enviromental extremist that is.  The stock market should tank more often:)

    Parent

    My beautiful bride (none / 0) (#54)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:27:46 AM EST

    filled at $3.01 on Saturday.  A half mile down the road it was $2.99.

    Parent
    News just said under 3 in places in NJ (none / 0) (#71)
    by nycstray on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:04:09 AM EST
    Time for another Atlantic City run.... (none / 0) (#124)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    to fill the tank and do some investing:)

    Parent
    I don't mean to rub it in (none / 0) (#55)
    by scribe on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:27:54 AM EST
    but I saw $2.979 (cash) at the local off-brand place this morning, down from $2.989 Friday.

    Parent
    I don't mean to rub it in (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by rghojai on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:50:55 AM EST
    but I saw 90 cents/gallon this morning... in Kuwait.

    (I don't work with other Americans, but ALL the non-Americans want Obama. The cabbies, shopkeepers, people working in IKEA, etc., are hip to it.)

    Parent

    Here's something: (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:42:18 AM EST
    As End Game Begins, Obama Controls the Media Board:

    The reality of this race is that Mr. Obama is in control. His nationwide buys have been climbing a systematic 20% a week since the beginning of September, while Mr. McCain's have flatlined.

    Apparently Obama is spending $2.8M/day.

    Look on the bright side, we'd (none / 0) (#4)
    by tigercourse on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:42:22 AM EST
    probably be testing 9000 without the bailout.

    Dow down 570 now (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:44:07 AM EST
    you may have spoke too soon.

    Parent
    Oops. Look out below. (none / 0) (#8)
    by tigercourse on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:45:19 AM EST
    Damn... (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:10:02 AM EST
    If I was as skittish and chicken without a head-ish as the Wall St. gamblers when I gamble, I'd be missing both thumbs and be 3 months behind on my rent by now.

    The golden rules of gambling....

    1. Never bet what you can't afford to lose.
    2. Never lose your head.
    3. Don't throw good money after bad.

    In case anyone is in need of a reminder.

    Parent
    You forgot one (none / 0) (#129)
    by Manuel on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:26:33 PM EST
    Never hit 17.

    This crisis is the result of greed overwhelming the ability to asses risk.  Now, we'll overdo the fear as much or more than we overdid the risk.

    Parent

    Yikes well I hope those TIAA-CREF (none / 0) (#85)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:19:26 AM EST
    fund managers are as smart as they claim to be.

    Parent
    Moral bankruptcy, fiscal bankruptcy, (none / 0) (#5)
    by No Blood for Hubris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:43:53 AM EST
    it's remarkable how truly effective Dirty Bush has been at ruining the country in a mere seven and a half years, no?

    Wait for the 2009 report on the military. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Fabian on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:46:33 AM EST
    I hope Iraq and Afghanistan are getting ready to fly solo.

    Parent
    We are Americans (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:47:19 AM EST
    We will survive this.  We will adapt and overcome, it is what we our famous for and it is the one legacy the greedy can never take from us.....that we have all grown up with the opportunity to realize much of our potential if we want to.  I'm not scared right now.  Things will be different for quite some time.  Our kids are going to drop a few pounds along with their parents, and while greed has died for some time we will remember what is really important in our lives.  I remember after 9/11 how close the country was.  It was incredible the good will we each had for one another and then our leader used that to create a horror.  That SOB is leaving though in January, his time is up and he is outta there forever and ever.  Let this country be close again and give us the leader that will seal that and be part of empowering us all to be everything we can become.  

    I want what ... (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:04:30 AM EST
    she's having!

    ;)

    Parent

    MT's last sentence made me worried (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:48:43 AM EST
    she started sipping the koolaid.

    Parent
    It's the only thing left to drink :) (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:51:02 AM EST
    I just read that 60 minutes (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:53:09 AM EST
    link about the CDS market.  Just wondering if any of our leaders realize that the people could rise up and just smite them if they get really hungry and cold.  If this CDS market estimate is correct, when that hits home I can't find the bottom to any of this.

    Parent
    I realize the considered wisdom here (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:00:28 AM EST
    is the tanking stock market is a benefit to Obama.  But, since both he and McCain supported the bail out bill, won't both lose credibility if it doesn't stablize the market before the election?  

    Parent
    I think it comes down to who if either (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:08:28 AM EST
    one of them made any sort of claim this was going to "fix" anything long term.  The only thing the bailout was ever capable of doing was preventing a collapse in the short term and that was a maybe, not a given.  Was it necessary to do?  Yes, and the House really did blow me away with what they ended up getting Bush to agree to because Bush originally wanted the money with no oversight and the government not being given anything of value in return for bailing out.  There was no plan to repay the bailout either and now there is.  That plan creates consumer and market confidence.  Where there is accountability there is confidence.  This entire scenario is a disaster for McCain though who has supported fully all deregulation policies as far as I know.  All the deregulating is what created this.

    Parent
    They will, but they shouldn't (none / 0) (#93)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:36:03 AM EST
    The bail-out wasn't aimed at propping up the stock market.  Once Paulson actually gets going and the credit markets start to loosen up, if they do significantly, that should give te stock market a bit of a boost.  But honestly, all the analysts I've heard/read don't think the stock market has hit bottom yet.

    Parent
    If you take a couple of (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:11:09 AM EST
    deployments swallowed with the lubrication of a morally illegal war, crashing economies can make you almost giddy.  This is easy for my soul to survive :)

    Parent
    Right on (none / 0) (#131)
    by Manuel on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:42:02 PM EST
    As an eternal optimist, I think I hate to see fear overdone even more than I hate to see greed overdone.  Here is the chorus from one of my favorite Bill Satines tunes which has brought me comfort over the years.

    You can trust the moon to move the mighty ocean
    You can trust the sun to shine upon the land
    You take the little that you know
    And you do the best you can
    And You see the rest with the quiet faith of man.



    Parent
    oops. meant to say it is what we are famous for (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:49:11 AM EST
    just very frustrated right now.  None of this needed to happen but it is going to so I'm going to meet my lessons head on because I can't stop what is happening.  All I can do is be the best person I can be and help those I'm able to help.

    The Bailout equals ... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:49:44 AM EST
    W's Economic Iraq.

    In a couple of years will McCain back a surge strategy on Wall Street?

    No one could seen... (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Fabian on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:56:02 AM EST
    No one could have predicted...

    Let's roll out those Bush administration classics!

    Parent

    Heh. (none / 0) (#18)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:57:42 AM EST
    Cheery? (none / 0) (#20)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:01:48 AM EST
    I'm in money-markets.  Probably will convert to stocks sometime between election and inauguration days.

    Smug bastard (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:03:56 AM EST
    guess what, I have it all in gold - course I only have a couple of ounces of gold, but there it is.

    Parent
    Yeah, but. . . (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:05:01 AM EST
    who wants to have to pull his own teeth to pay for the early bird in Fort Myers?

    Parent
    see my Woody Allen quote above (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:06:23 AM EST
    You and Ron Paul (none / 0) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:05:23 AM EST
    I thought Silver's commentary (none / 0) (#39)
    by Faust on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:12:45 AM EST
    on Georgia today was interesting. Certainly I am interested to see what happens on election day as far as demographic breakdowns are concerned.

    Question- I know nothing about (none / 0) (#43)
    by kenosharick on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:16:15 AM EST
    these financing issues. Did those of you who supported and were cheerleading the bailout last week expect an instant turnaround?

    I don't think anyone around here (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Faust on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:24:54 AM EST
    was cheerleading the bailout. But as someone who was supporting the bailout with 6 clothspins and a pneumatic vise holding my nose shut, no. I did not expect it to turn anything around. The purpose of the bailout was to prevent total collapse. The bailout as currently constructed cannot solve anything. It's a stopgap pschological measure that is politically necessary in the short term. I very strongly hope it is completely re-written in November.

    Parent
    Expensive psychological measure.... (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:38:29 AM EST
    wouldn't it have been cheaper just to give every clown on Wall St. some Valium?  Or better yet, a sack of high quality reefer?

    Parent
    I prefer a bottom up approach (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Faust on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:48:48 AM EST
    Valium for the masses! Oh wait. We already have that. It's called Reality TV.

    Parent
    At least in "Brave New World".... (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:51:40 AM EST
    the state gave you real drugs to cope with your sorry state-run existence...reality tv don't cut it for me.

    Parent
    Soma vacation! (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Faust on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:12:35 AM EST
    I would go for that about now. Personally I hate reality TV. I prefer other forms of fluffy diversion. Like blogs.

    Parent
    I hear that.... (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:30:22 AM EST
    I prefer conversing with you knuckleheads for kicks than watching the latest episode of whatever the hot reality show is.

    But I think that makes us the weirdos:)

    Parent

    Except during "Boston Legal." (none / 0) (#136)
    by oldpro on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 02:04:42 PM EST
    Then, I'm offline for sure.

    Parent
    I wasn't cheerleading a bailout (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:40:32 AM EST
    without most of what the House did end up getting.  I really wasn't that excited about it once they got those things.....it isn't anything to get excited about it is only what must be done.  Those items were/are important for the longterm we all face though.  Short term I knew that this was going to happen.  This will not be the only day we go through this either.  We are in a global recession that is going to get worse before it begins to get better.  The next thing that will floor us all is going to be the unemployment we will soon face.  That will crater the markets more along with some more bank failures that are going to occur because we have some banks out there in really really bad shape and our leaders will chooose to allow some of those banks to be bought out instead of attempting to bail them out.

    Parent
    Seat belt lights still on, but the (none / 0) (#56)
    by KeysDan on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:31:40 AM EST
     bumpy night but will, I think, become a better day.  The German government has guaranteed private savings accounts, and bailouts are being arranged for their greedy and corrupt lenders, bankers and insurers.  The effects of our bailout/rescue efforts will takes a long time, but maybe the emotions can be distilled off and some confidence will return in much less time.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#98)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:41:49 AM EST
    The bail-out's intent is only to try to keep one aspect of the economic mess from going from bad to worse.  And it'll be a couple weeks before Paulson can get it going, in any case.

    Parent
    Facts are getting out. Hopefully folks are (none / 0) (#58)
    by vicndabx on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:39:23 AM EST
    paying attention to stories like this story last nite from 60 Minutes..

    I missed that (none / 0) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:49:08 AM EST
    and obviously should not have.  The CDS market is estimated based on volunteer survey to amount to 60 or 70 trillion dollars?  I'd say we are "F"ed much worse than I suspected.

    Parent
    I would recommend this story to anyone who is (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by vicndabx on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:09:38 AM EST
    following this stuff.  To me it explained things in simple terms.  Specifically, this line
    What most people outside of Wall Street and Washington don't know is that a lot of people who bought these risky mortgage securities also went out and bought even more arcane investments that Wall Street was peddling called "credit default swaps." And they have turned out to be a much bigger problem.
     This is the line the piqued my interest when I was watching the story.

    Parent
    Cheery? (none / 0) (#61)
    by Lahdee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:41:24 AM EST
    Cheerleaders with guns stage Shakespearean epic. The staging included shooting kneeling prisoners in the back of the head.

    You would think more parents (none / 0) (#76)
    by nycstray on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:09:44 AM EST
    would be upset. I find it interesting that there's a protest about it framed as gun promotion. Hello, execution and school shootings anyone?!

    Parent
    Drop in spite of bailout, or because of (none / 0) (#77)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:11:16 AM EST

    Since the bailout had no real reform of Fannie and Freddie, perhaps thats the reason for the nose dive.

    Please (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Steve M on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:25:24 AM EST
    You embarrass yourself when you write things like that.

    Parent
    Today on the way to lunch (2.00 / 0) (#116)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:36:54 PM EST
    there was an ad on the radio for FHA mortgages up to $360K with "little or no money down."  Securitizing those risky mortgages is at the root of this mess.

    Parent
    I saw an "investment" type ad last night (none / 0) (#118)
    by nycstray on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:41:21 PM EST
    and at the end it carried a disclaimer like the pharma ads do. Is that new, or have I just missed it in the past?

    Parent
    Have you seen the one.... (none / 0) (#121)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:50:48 PM EST
    that trys to play itself off as a news broadcast, with a 800 number to call to refinance or consolidate or whatever snake oil they're selling?

    That one cracks me up.

    Parent

    Yeah, that showed up right after (none / 0) (#137)
    by nycstray on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 02:12:06 PM EST
    something happened. Can't remember what right now, but Countrywide started a similar commercial shortly after. They were trying to get people to consolidate their house loan, car loan and any other loan with them and I think, take out a third loan. I was like "WTF?!". Essentially they were trying to get you to put all your eggs in the Countrywide basket and they would hold your purse strings.

    Aside from the fact I just got nailed by the new NYC rent increase, I'm damn glad I'm a renter and not in the stock market right now.

    Parent

    I completely agree with you (none / 0) (#122)
    by Steve M on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:57:16 PM EST
    Are you under the impression, however, that Fannie and Freddie securitize risky mortgages?

    Parent
    Abso freaking lutely (none / 0) (#127)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:11:52 PM EST

    It started under the Clinton administration.  The reason these risky loans were made is not because the lender wanted to hold them, but rather that they could be sold.

    Parent
    Interesting (none / 0) (#138)
    by Steve M on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 02:25:53 PM EST
    From where I sit, no one is securitizing these mortgages any more, and all the lawyers who used to make a living out of creating the securities have been laid off.  But maybe you have your own information that suggests the market for mortgage-backed securities is going gangbusters.

    Seriously, the idea that the market is reacting negatively to the lack of Fannie and Freddie reform in the bailout package is just complete lunacy.

    Parent

     

    Parent
    Gloom (none / 0) (#78)
    by lentinel on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:12:05 AM EST
    There would have been only one thing that would have made me interested in the bailout. That would have been if it helped people who had lost or were about to lose their homes.

    Neither Obama nor McCain expressed any interest in that.

    Their priority seemed to have been raising the FDIC guarantee from $100,000 to $250,000.

    And they talk about concern for the middle class.
    I guess when you have two candidates who are millionaires, it is not to be expected that they would empathize with us.

    Yeh, this is no way to win an election (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:23:40 AM EST
    and not worth it, people losing their houses and jobs to give a millionaire, either millionaire, the White House and a job that neither one really is ready to do.

    There is no reason to cheer these poll results.  One will win, but everybody is losing a lot.

    Parent

    Here's some non-Woody humor. (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:22:19 AM EST
    What was on the screen of Jeff Toobin's laptop as he assessed the VP debate?

    Via L A Times

    Hilarious! (none / 0) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:26:49 AM EST
    I Told Ya's So! (none / 0) (#120)
    by Doc Rock on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:47:03 PM EST


    Pending doom (none / 0) (#132)
    by liberalLibertarian on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:44:41 PM EST
    I had hoped the increasing carelessness, dishonesty, and unbelievable incompetence infusing our world, our culture... would hit a breaking point and we'd wake up.
    I had hoped it'd happen without destroying everything. That they'd wake up before it was too late. Sadly it hasn't happened that way.

    We are goin' down. All engines have flamed out and there is nobody in the cockpit. Our so called leaders are running around spouting what ever they think will benefit themselves. They don't have the competence to find real solutions, but even if they did they'd lack the courage to implement them.

    Depression is looming,  Boomers reaching retirement and their 401Ks have tanked big time. Most American's biggest net worth comes from their home equity. That's about to disappear.

    Global warming which could leave this planet uninhabitable if the worst scenarios come to pass (such as the  sudden release of the methane held in the oceans) inevitable now without money to fund fixes.

    The potentially poisonous melamine was introduced into our food supply to make watered down milk appear to contain an acceptable amount of protein in order to increase profits.  It's a perfect example of what's gone wrong with our global systems.

    I am scared!

    Coming up to 750 point down (none / 0) (#133)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:48:41 PM EST
    wow. . .