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Obama Wins

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:31:36 PM EST
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CNN projects. 37% for Obama, 30% for Clinton, 30% for Edwards.

Given the second choice deals with Kucinch and Richardson, it appears the here was basically a tie in first choices. But since the Entrance Poll results were never given, I can not know.

The DMR Gold Standard Poll remains intact.

(Speaking for me only) Joe Trippi on MSNBC makes an utter fool of himself. He attacks Hillary Clinton an STILL ignores that Barack Obama cleaned Edwards' clock in the battle to be the Hillary Alternative race.

More...

Here's a newsflash Joe, Edwards is toast. It is over.

Update [2008-1-3 22:7:41 by Big Tent Democrat]: Turnout was 212,000. Unbelievable. And lion's share of the credit to Obama.

Update [2008-1-3 22:31:11 by Big Tent Democrat]: Hillary is giving a helluva concession speech. Very well done imo.

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    Obama Wins | 85 comments (85 topical)

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    BTD.... (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Key on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:50:29 PM EST
    Edwards toast?  Basis for that is what?  Perhaps Clinton is toast?  Perhaps even Obama is toast, given that Edwards and Clinton will both probably go on a massive attack on Obama in NH.

    Although I wouldn't be surprised to see Clinton do most of the attacking while Edwards keeps hounding the Republicans.....

    Question:  Who do you think has the best chance of winning in the general election against Huckabee?  How about against McCain?

    Because ultimately, that's the question we all should be asking right now.  Who can withstand the hits?

    Clinton and Edwards both have, each in their own way, withstood the worst of the right.  But Obama has never really had to face the right.

    No (1.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:53:26 PM EST
    Edwards is toast. There is not a person with a brain that does not know that.

    Parent
    I Remember (none / 0) (#38)
    by Randinho on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:12:59 PM EST
    There were days when a comment like that would be considered an insult on this blog. Way to elevate the discourse BTD.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:15:18 PM EST
    I did not mean to insult anyone.

    I apologize if it was taken that way.

    Seriously.

    I just talk that way, not directed at anyone.

    Parent

    burnt toast (none / 0) (#82)
    by judyo on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:06:03 PM EST
    I have a very active brain and I don't know that.
    Why go so far out on a limb?  Anything can happen and your repeated statement may just burn your bum, er bun.

    Parent
    "Newsflash" (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by commissar on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:57:11 PM EST
    A black man just won one of the whitest states in the country.  It's a big deal.

    It is indeed (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:58:51 PM EST
    Proud night for Iowans that.

    Parent
    Second Choices (none / 0) (#1)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:41:04 PM EST
    It does look like the deals made the difference.

    The DMR poll keeps its reputation.  Did it accurately poll the caucuses or did it move the voters?  Doesn't matter, it was right.

    Can I just say shut up, Bill Bennett?  He just said that the great thing about Barack Obama is that he never plays the race card and shows African Americans that they don't have to be like Jesse Jackson.  Racism just exudes off this guy.  Ick.

    Iowans want change and not experience.  Change from what, I have no idea.  But then I'm just cynical enough to think a lot of voters come up with the rationale for their vote after they've selected the candidate.

    Bill Schneider says tie between Clinton and Obama among Dems.  Obama won 41-17% among independents, which made up 20% of voters.  They are over 40% in NH.  The Lieberman strategy works!

    Obama's Win (none / 0) (#2)
    by bob h on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:46:18 PM EST
    Edwards may be in a tight spot from here out.  Hillary's spinners can reasonably taint the Obama win because the Richardson-Obama deal has been confirmed.  It smacks of shady Chicago-style backroom politics.

    Hillary is toast if Edwards is toast (none / 0) (#4)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:49:48 PM EST
    If Edwards does not stick in this race for long, most of his votes will switch to Obama.  Then she's done.

    Parent
    that is a fair point (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:05:38 PM EST
    It is why I predicted Obama would win tonight and continue on to be the first African American President of the United States.

    Parent
    I'm Not Sure Edwards' Supporters Go To Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:16:25 PM EST
    Some will, but I suspect more than expected will go to Clinton.  They seem to be splitting the same group of core voters.  Plus, if Edwards fades I think Clinton wins the white votes in the Southern States.  I hate to say it, but I think the deep south splits along racial lines if there is only Clinton and Obama.  I'd love to be proven wrong about that one.

    Parent
    No they mostly go to Edwards (none / 0) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:23:29 PM EST


    Parent
    Wait... (none / 0) (#25)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:06:42 PM EST
    He's a black guy?

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:07:33 PM EST
    Don't you think that there were others, of course with much lighter skin, that is.

    Parent
    gee, that's funny, (none / 0) (#3)
    by cpinva on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:49:29 PM EST
    according to the DMR poll, 40% of the dem caucasers were purportedly "independents", what happened to the other 50%?

    I do not know (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:54:16 PM EST


    Parent
    20% were former Ind's (none / 0) (#11)
    by commissar on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:54:51 PM EST
    CNN showed that O. ran even amongst existing Dems.

    So, for all of BTD's posts about DMR's 40%, in fact, Obama won, with only 20% of caucus-goers being Indies.

    Parent

    His win came from that though (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:04:45 PM EST
    But hats off to Obama tonight.

    We can continue the discussion tomorrow.

    Parent

    Iowa (none / 0) (#5)
    by brat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:50:14 PM EST
    It's going to be interesting to see where things go from here. I suspect that it's going to be a dog fight between Obama, Clinton and Edwards going forward.

    Say good-bye to Richardson, Biden and Chris Dodd. Although I would LOVE to see Dodd challenge Reid for Senate Majority leader.

    Edwards is done (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:53:49 PM EST


    Parent
    So you're saying... (none / 0) (#52)
    by magster on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:21:12 PM EST
    Edwards is done?

    Speaking of done, Romney and Giuliani.

    I was hoping Paul could beat McCain.

    I'm afraid of a McCain resurgence, and an Obama win should pull indies to the Democratic ticket. Even if Hillary can come back, Obama's win tonight makes McCain's road harder.

    Parent

    Romney is NOT done (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:22:54 PM EST
    But he is in serious trouble.

    Mike Huckabee has to be the favorite now.

    Parent

    McCain v. Obama in NH (none / 0) (#59)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:25:00 PM EST
    Does this help or hurt McCain?  Will independents think Obama has it locked up and feel free to go to McCain or will they be inspired to go for Obama?

    This thing is just starting the battle, IMO.

    Parent

    He of course sez (none / 0) (#64)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:34:22 PM EST
    he'll fight on.

    Parent
    I second your Dodd dream (none / 0) (#12)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:55:19 PM EST


    Parent
    Ann Seltzer is a genius (none / 0) (#7)
    by GOPmurderedconscience on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:52:43 PM EST
    BTD,

    let's just bow a show our respect to Ann. Zogby is still a fraud.

    I stuck by her (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:56:33 PM EST
    I picked Obama SOLELY based on the DMR poll.

    Parent
    She is a genius (none / 0) (#34)
    by pontificator on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:11:30 PM EST
    And Trippi was 100% right about turnout. . . four years early.  Turnout was about what Trippi predicted it would be in 2004.

    Parent
    Congrats! (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:14:16 PM EST
    I am sincerely happy for you and Geek and some of the saner Obama supporters (well Geek can be sane.)

    You guys are gonna hate my piece in the Guardian Online tomorrow.


    Parent

    Oh, I bet I won't. (none / 0) (#44)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:15:24 PM EST
    Is is Guardian US?

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:27:58 PM EST


    Parent
    I will read! (none / 0) (#65)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:36:59 PM EST


    Parent
    I can take it (none / 0) (#60)
    by pontificator on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:26:53 PM EST
    I'm in a good enough mood.

    Seriously, the most striking news is the youth turnout.  It seems like every election people predict that there will be record youth turnout, and every election they end up being completely wrong.  Here, for once, they were right.  

    Parent

    Ann Seltzer (none / 0) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:28:26 PM EST
    She's a genius.

    Parent
    Having worked (none / 0) (#40)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:13:53 PM EST
    for the Iowa Poll at the DMR, I never had a doubt about the papers ability to accurately assess the political climate in the state.  They've been doing it for a long, long time.

    Even with the Gannett carpetbaggers running the place...

     

    Parent

    Trippi (none / 0) (#15)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:58:48 PM EST
    Perhaps he's delusional enough to think he can make Clinton go away?  

    It's sad for me to say because Edwards was a strong second choice for me (behind Clinton), but I think he is toast.  The question is whether he tries to play spoiler or kingmaker going forward.  He was a long shot to be the nominee, now I think he's a no shot.

    Clinton's path just got harder, but she still has one. Edwards is not going to be able to compete in New Hampshire and isn't on the ballot in Michigan.  He's never gained traction this time around in South Carolina and any union help he might've gotten in Nevada is probably going to Clinton now.

    And I know I said this earlier, but Shut Up Bill Bennett.  Having already shown his racism, he moves on to sexism telling Barack Obama to watch his back and kneecaps because you know how awful the Clintons are.  And then they all chuckle about how they wouldn't want to be Bill Clinton tonight.  Because Hillary is such a castrating witch.  Ugh!

    Trippi's bad on TV--was in '04, too (none / 0) (#48)
    by jr on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:17:08 PM EST
    Remember back in '04 when he said that dumbass comment about how "you'll just have to wait and see" when Dean went to meet with Carter in Plains, and instantly everyone shifted expectations so that Carter NOT endorsing Dean became a huge loss for the campaign?

    Yeah, not the best guy to put in front of the cameras.

    Parent

    Amazing (none / 0) (#17)
    by andreww on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 08:59:25 PM EST
    This is an amazing win for Obama as well as the country.  It should not be viewed negatively that a Democrat was able to draw independents towards the Democratic party instead of turning them away.  Obama is building a movement and he understands that a movement requires you to communicate in a way that unites people.  I suspect this is why many turned to him as their second choice.  This isn't a bad thing by the way - it shows that he will retain support of the Democratic party when the general election rolls around.

    Amazing Victory!

    To his credit (none / 0) (#18)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:01:52 PM EST
    Obama won even though only about 20% of the voters were democrats.  I think the real story is the second-choice deals with Richardson and Kucinich, especially Richardson.  It sounds like entrance polls had Clinton tied or slightly ahead.  

    Parent
    20%? (none / 0) (#20)
    by andreww on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:04:05 PM EST
    That doesn't sound right.  

    Parent
    Oh no (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:03:33 PM EST
    I still have serious problems with his political style.

    Just because he won does not change that.

    Parent

    Right there with you on that one. (none / 0) (#27)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:07:26 PM EST


    Parent
    really? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:08:34 PM EST
    I thought you liked Obama. Must have you confused with someone else.

    Parent
    Nope. (none / 0) (#35)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:12:00 PM EST
    You confuse my dislike of Hillary with my affection for Obama.

    Edwards/Dodd

    I'm not sure I will vote for Obama if he is the nominee.  May send me over to the Greens.

    But I am happy America has taken this large step with an African American.

    Parent

    I'm happy (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jgarza on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:05:24 PM EST
    Open left said Obama won entrance and Hil Edwards were too close to call second and 3rd.


    Given the second choice deals with Kucinch and Richardson, it appears the here was basically a tie in first choices. But since the Entrance Poll results were never given, I can not know.

    Nice spin job at trying to diminish his victory.  Is that going to be your new line, it was all back room deals, that did it.  Seriously is it a requirement that you have to find an excuse to bash Obama to post here?

    they are mistaken I think (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:06:47 PM EST
    The words were the trance plus key precincts.

    To date, no one has released the entrance polls and that bothers me a ton.

    Parent

    I'm Not Trying to Spin (none / 0) (#32)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:10:11 PM EST
    That's what I heard.  If that's not right, then it's not right and I'll concede that.   But the stuff I saw said something different.  


    Parent
    Idiots! (none / 0) (#24)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:06:29 PM EST
    Gloria Borger just said that if Clinton comes in third she has a huge hurdle in New Hampshire.  That's right, if Clinton loses to Edwards - who has no money - by something like .4 percent, then she's screwed in NH.

    The "deal" and the entrance polls. (none / 0) (#29)
    by commissar on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:08:01 PM EST
    Check CNN entrance polls.

    Obama had 35% going in. C. & E. seem to have picked up more than O. did, if the entrance poll equates to  first preferences.

    more from the entrance poll (none / 0) (#36)
    by commissar on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:12:36 PM EST
    Obama won women, 30-44year olds, identified Dems, etc.

    There's a lot more to his win than "the deal."

    Parent

    Right, (none / 0) (#39)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:13:32 PM EST
    Women think he's "hot."  At least the ones I talk to do.  Like my wife, for instance.

    Parent
    30-44 Year Olds (none / 0) (#49)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:18:09 PM EST
    My age group and the most conservative generation in America.  FWIW.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#69)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:40:44 PM EST
    'Cause that's my generation and that's the first I've heard of it.  

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#77)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:54:07 PM EST
    From one of the studies
    Overall, Gen-X'ers, especially males, are more Republican in their party identification and conservative in their ideological orientation than any other generation. Concern with the economy and taxes ranks high for this group. The Gen-X'ers seem quite pragmatic in their attitudes on political issues and appear to position themselves on an almost issue-by-issue basis. They tend to favor strict punishment as the best means of handling crime and are more likely than any other group to believe the invasion of Iraq was correct. The Gen-X'ers seem broadly to favor a libertarian position on social issues such as abortion and same sex marriage and moderate (or pragmatic) positions on environmental protection, economic intervention, and educational policies.


    Parent
    Hmmm. (none / 0) (#85)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 08:39:45 AM EST
    Interesting.  Oh well, I always have been the exception to the rule.  And, I guess all of my friends are as well.  Viva la difference!

    Parent
    so far (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jgarza on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:08:21 PM EST
    212,000 plus turnout

    That's what did it. (none / 0) (#33)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:11:01 PM EST
    Turnout was always going to be the decider and it was.  

    Parent
    always good.. (none / 0) (#43)
    by andreww on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:15:22 PM EST
    ...when more people give you better results.  Another great thing for Obama coming out of tonight.  We are witnesses to history - absolutely no doubt about it - what happened tonight will tell the world something great about America.  Wonderful wonderful night.

    Parent
    Good strong win for Obama (none / 0) (#37)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:12:58 PM EST
    and amazing turnout.  

    Odds on when Edwards drops out?  Before SuperTuesday  sending all his people to Obama?  Or after?

    After South Carolina (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:16:25 PM EST


    Parent
    Can he send his people to Obama? (none / 0) (#50)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:19:25 PM EST
    I don't know that Edwards people in other parts of the country are loyal enough - unlike Iowans - to simply go where he tells them.

    Obama is definitely the frontrunner now, however.

    Parent

    They won't go to Clinton (none / 0) (#53)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:21:16 PM EST
    or continue to vote for Edwards - just because he drops out doesn't take his name off the ballot -  I don't think. Or maybe there's a time deadline.

    Parent
    that was supposed to be (none / 0) (#55)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:21:47 PM EST
    they'll go to Obama or still vote for Edwards if possible.

    Parent
    Nah (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:21:39 PM EST
    But a lot will go there anyway.

    he's gonna be the next President.

    Pretty darn exciting really.

    Parent

    It's a historic night. (none / 0) (#56)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:22:44 PM EST
    Might as well celebrate.

    There's always tomorrow to criticize him :)

    Parent

    The frightening thing is Huckabee (none / 0) (#47)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:16:50 PM EST
    He didn't just win, he destroyed the competition.  That is a bit unnerving.

    Huckabee has always scared (none / 0) (#51)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:20:04 PM EST
    the bejesus out of me if he gets the nomination.  Lots of people today telling me how much they enjoyed him on Leno. When I said he was a nutcase they looked shocked.  

    The MSM knows he's a nutcase but they like a story.  

    Parent

    He's giving a very personable (none / 0) (#71)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:42:29 PM EST
    victory speech.  

    Parent
    Non-concession speeches (none / 0) (#63)
    by commissar on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:29:08 PM EST
    Edwards made no concession at to anyone

    Hillary congratulated "ALL the candidates."

    Really classless. WTF is wrong with these people?

    The Election is not over (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:39:52 PM EST
    They're just conceding Iowa, not the nomination.  I think both of them did very well.  I particularly liked Clinton's nod to the record turnout and how that's good for Democrats.  But I thought Edwards did a nice job, too.  

    Parent
    I agree w/BTD: Hillary Clinton's speech (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:38:11 PM EST
    is strong, underlines she is a Democrat and urges a Democratic victory in Nov.  Bill looks stricken.

    Now about John King's hair!

    Parent

    Sticken? (none / 0) (#73)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:45:09 PM EST
    I must've missed that.  When I saw him I thought he looked remarkably upbeat (although I'm sure that's something of a front).

    But then he's a former president, his wife's a senator, and they are both multimillionaires at this point.  Kind of hard to feel very sorry for them or any of these guys really.  They all lead pretty good lives with or without the presidency.

    Parent

    J agrees with you. (none / 0) (#81)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:03:42 PM EST
    My thoughts:  he is used to winning and not used to standing by quitely while his wife gives a speech.

    Parent
    Looking like (none / 0) (#67)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:39:05 PM EST
    Obama 38%
    Edwards 30%
    Clinton 29%

    That's bad for Hillary.

    Eh (none / 0) (#72)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:43:37 PM EST
    If she'd been a distant third, that would be terrible.  This is essentially a tie and there's no way Edwards can make it through Feb. 5th.  For Clinton it isn't necessarily deadly, a distant third might've been, but it's definitely a setback and she needs a strong showing in NH.

    I wonder if Michigan will come back and bite Obama in the butt.  Did he really need to take his name off the ballot to win Iowa?   It's an opening for Clinton to regain some momentum.

    Parent

    Meh (none / 0) (#74)
    by dmfox on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:46:33 PM EST
    If Obama isn't running in Michigan, it's hard to see that getting her any momentum.  She needs to beat him head-to-head, not in a contest where she's running unopposed.

    Parent
    What a fantastic moment (none / 0) (#70)
    by dmfox on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:41:07 PM EST
    I'm thoroughly ecstatic at the Obama victory, at the unprecedented turnout, and the sheer amount of enthusiasm for the Democratic party.

    DMR and Selzer got it right (none / 0) (#75)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:52:13 PM EST
    Obama was the apparently the first choice of Democrats, but not by the margin he got in the end, which came, as predicted, from independents.

    I share BTD's reservations about Obama's political style, and I worry about how this will turn out in the long run.

    Especially if McCain wins (none / 0) (#76)
    by DA in LA on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:53:53 PM EST
    Or an independent joins the race.  Obama is carving out the middle, an indy could really hurt.

    Parent
    We heard tonight from the RNC (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:55:53 PM EST
    that their campaign against Obama will be about experience.  I don't think this works for anyone but McCain, but I think there's a decent chance it works with McCain.

    Parent
    i don't think... (none / 0) (#79)
    by andreww on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:56:29 PM EST
    a viable independent will enter if obama wins the nomination

    Parent
    Updated turnout numbers (none / 0) (#80)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 10:43:57 PM EST
    via Jonathan Singer:

    On a separate note, per MSNBC, new turnout number for the Democratic caucuses: 236,000. Astounding.
    In a state... (none / 0) (#83)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:06:53 PM EST
    ...that is fairly evenly split between the two major parties, democratic caucus-goers outnumbered republicans almost two to one.

    I have to wonder if there is really that much apathy in the ranks of the Republicans or perhaps a growing fissure within their various factions.

    Parent

    Children of Republicans (none / 0) (#84)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:10:17 PM EST
    turning Democrat maybe?  

    Parent
    Obama Wins | 85 comments (85 topical)

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