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Is The Florida Dem Race Getting Traction?

The Florida Democratic primary today will not select delegates, according to Democratic rules. The candidates did not campaign here or run ads, other than a national ad run by Barack Obama. Howver, all the candidates are on the ballot. It seems likely that the largest number of Democratic voters will cast ballots today in Florida that have voted in any state to date. Indeed, RECORD turnout is forecast. Can these votes be ignored by the Media? The Obama camp seems worried that it will not be:

. . . [O]n a media call that was led off by Sen. John Kerry. Here are quick translations of Kerry's opening remarks, which were directly specifically and near exclusively focused on the Clinton campaign's attempt to claim significance from what happens today in Florida:

"The bottom line is that Florida offers no delegates. It should not become part of some spin campaign. . . . You have a contrast today, a juxtaposition. You have an avoidance of a rule set up by the chair to create something that isn’t supposed to be something. In my judgment, personally, as voters look at the meaning of the Florida primary, the voters are not looking for spin to win the news cycle . . .

More....

This is intriguing in that the Obama campaign accepts that no delegates will be chosen by insists that EVEN PAYING ATTENTION to the vote is wrong. It is a hard argument, or would be if this was not Obama's camp making it. IF the shoe was on the other foot, I feel confident it would be a big story tonight.

What should the Media do? How about report the news. To wit, explain there was no campaigning and no delegates will be awarded and then report the vote count. Reporting. Try it some time Media.

< Open Thread | Florida Primary Results: First Live Thread >
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  • Vintage Kerry. . . (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:22:39 PM EST
    can anyone understand a word this duck is saying?

    It seems he said (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:56:38 PM EST
    bottom line, but I dare anyone to find his  :-)

    Parent
    It struck me as a bad argument (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:27:03 PM EST
    And Obama can not really say this is a rules violation so what are you left to argue? The Media should ingore Florida voters.

    IT is a tough sell.

    Worked in Michigan though.

    Parent

    BTD (none / 0) (#34)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:50:26 PM EST
    I think the argument worked better in MI because Obama's (and dear Edwards's, who is often forgotten in these debates) name was not on the ballot (didn't stop him from promoting uncommitted with his friends on the ground, though).  It seems to me that as the Florida ballot has all the names, all voters have the possibility of supporting anyone they wish.  I also think it's hard for Obama to make an argument about Clinton being quietly politicking there when he has made several fundraiser stops and has also shown a national ad there.

    And Kerry...well, what a reminder of why he did not win the election.  Though, with Obama as contrast, I have to say they both tend to parse too much and say too little of subsequence.

    Parent

    Not just a bad argument (none / 0) (#56)
    by Grey on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:19:58 PM EST
    They're all on the ballot, so no one can claim a loss or a win mean nothing.

    The other, more important thing, is that there seems to be record turnout in the Democratic primary in Florida: is anyone seriously going to pretend hundreds of thousands of Democrats coming out to vote in this primary do not matter?  That's absurd!  

    Today, the Florida Dem Party chair was on MSNBC and she specifically said this primary counts, that she fully expects the delegates to be counted in Denver and that nothing less will do.

    Obama & Co. are dismissing the importance of this primary at their own peril.


    Parent

    BO found a way to be on the ballot in Michigan (none / 0) (#96)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:14:54 PM EST
    too -- John Conyers' ads and appeal for Michiganders to vote "uncommitted," so that if its delegates were counted, those delegates could go for Obama.

    Of course, you didn't see much about that in the msm.  But yes, there were many ads and a campaign for Obama in Michigan, too.  Just as there are in Florida for other candidates -- just not BY the candidates' campaigns.

    The DNC really left so many loopholes in this that it's a farce, and the delegates ought to count.  Good for Clinton for fighting voter suppression.:-)

    Parent

    thanks larry (none / 0) (#15)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:34:21 PM EST
    I read it twice and had NO IDEA what Kerry was on about.

    People are voting - count the votes.

    Parent

    "something that isn't supposed (none / 0) (#19)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:35:56 PM EST
    to be something"

    Parent
    sorta like the Ny Times headline I just saw (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:43:01 PM EST
    :January 29, 2008,  1:12 pm
    Bill Clinton, in South Jersey, Doesn't Mention Obama.

    Thanks!

    Parent

    Kerry tries too hard to be relevant (none / 0) (#90)
    by felizarte on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:06:58 PM EST
    The guy can botch up a joke and he doesw not do any better on a straight statement.  I still have Kerry/Edwards 04 on my vehicle. But I suppose now I really should peel it off.

    As far as the media is concerned, they have a perfect excuse not to dwell on the democratic results and instead concentrate on the republican results since the there are "no delegates involved".

    I'm sure I will get the results from TalkLeft.

    Parent

    I'm hoping for live blogging here. (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:15:26 PM EST
    The media will repot that Hil (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:30:21 PM EST
    is going to Florida...is IN Florida...and will interview her in Florida and show her speech whatever the outcome.

    Following Obama's national ad buy, this is a good risky move on her part.

    BTW...telling Florida voters that their votes won't count isn't my idea of "How to Win Friends and Influence People."  They're kinda touchy about votes counting in Florida...Democrats, that is.

    Kerry's Comment Equals (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:32:16 PM EST
    Don't look at the 800lb. gorilla  in the room. Result: Everyone looks at the800lb. gorilla in the room.

    If Obama's campaign feels it is not important, why discuss it?

    yeah (none / 0) (#17)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:34:45 PM EST
    craaazy.

    Parent
    MSNBC code word (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by LadyDiofCT on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:57:13 PM EST
    Matthews has already put out the code word.  He says any newspapers that report the FL win for Hillary are Hillary supporters.  Oooo.. bad reporters!  Code words - if you ignore the dem primary winner in FL, you are an Obama supporter, you are one of us.  The media fairy tale continues.  

    What? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:57:55 PM EST
    No, he did not.

    Parent
    Yup! Did! (none / 0) (#63)
    by LadyDiofCT on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:30:58 PM EST
    Right after David Ignatius was on saying that oh so many Hillary supporters are disgusted with Bill that they now are supporting Obama.  Oh and Obama didn't snub Clinton, he was just turning around to talk to anti-imigrant McCaskill.

    Parent
    These Floridians (5.00 / 0) (#136)
    by bob h on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:42:06 PM EST
    went to the polls in the 100s of 1000s with something to say.  How can you ignore it, given that this is always a key swing state?

    Record Turnout Expected In Leon County (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by john horse on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:55:06 PM EST
    In Leon county supervisor of elections Ion Sancho is predicting a record turnout.

    Per the Tallahassee Democrat newspaper
    Supervisor of Elections Ion Sancho is predicting huge voter turnout in Leon County.

    "It's clearly of historic proportions," said Sancho, the Tallahassee-based voting chief who has been a prominent statewide critic of elections procedures for 18 years. "It's going to be a high turnout."

    Sancho is expecting turnout of about 70 percent, including early voters. He said that is more in line with general elections than primaries.

    What's behind it?

    "The polls indicate Americans think the country is going in the wrong direction," Sancho said. "Americans realize more than ever they have to get involved to change their country."



    Re: (none / 0) (#1)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:17:15 PM EST
    I cannot understand why the preference of a million or so Dems would not be relevant as news.

    Relevant to the delegate count?  Maybe, maybe not, at the end of the day.  The same media that loves to print unadulterated WH spin in the name of giving "both sides of the story" seems oddly reticent to even note that the Clinton camp takes the position that the delegates will count.

    But even if we stipulate there are no delegates, it's still a preference being expressed by the 4th largest state in the nation.  This is the same media that breathlessly reports the results of the Ames Straw Poll, after all.

    I wonder how they will handle it (5.00 / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:19:19 PM EST
    I am surprised the Obama campaign did this call, and with Kerry to boot.

    Sounds a little panicky.

    Parent

    Using Kerry as the hammer (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:25:13 PM EST
    to nail a lid on a Clinton coffin doesn't make any sense...who the Hell listens to Kerry?  This is dumb.

    Parent
    To me (none / 0) (#9)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:27:00 PM EST
    Kerry is a very disloyal democrat when he can accept the Clintons help with fund raising etc and an endorsement but now turns his back on them....speaks volumes about character...

    Parent
    Or... (none / 0) (#81)
    by mindfulmission on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:52:08 PM EST
    ... it just means that he thinks that Barack Obama will make a better President.

    Parent
    Or (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:56:23 PM EST
    He secretly wants Hillary to win and knows the best thing he can do for her is to argue for Obama's candidacy with all the clarity and eloquence he brought to his own.

    Parent
    ROTFL n/t (none / 0) (#85)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:58:31 PM EST
    I love the schoolyard (none / 0) (#173)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:57:11 PM EST
    fight image. In the 1940's if you watched and of the Bowery movies, they would say: Who's gonna make me? Me and my right armie? Oh..yeah, your sister drives a pickle wagon. Your mother wears army boots. They would just go at it. Love them old movies

    Parent
    I am surprised they did the call.

    Parent
    You think Teddy was the (none / 0) (#55)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:18:59 PM EST
    coup de grace?

    Parent
    Perhaps it's the tracking polls (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:22:21 PM EST
    Since South Carolina Obama hasn't exactly soared in national polls as we approach Super Tuesday.  He's gotten virtually no bounce in Rasmussen. Here's Rasmussen (notice Obama's best day is the day of the South Carolina primary):

    Date          Clinton     Obama     Edwards
    01/29/08     41%     32%     18%
    01/28/08     39%     31%     17%
    01/27/08     40%     31%     17%
    01/26/08     36%     33%     18%
    01/25/08     41%     30%     16%
    01/24/08     42%     30%     16%
    01/23/08     42%     30%     15%
    01/22/08     42%     31%     13%
    01/21/08     41%     32%     14%

    Gallup is kinder to him, showing him pretty consistently chipping away at Clinton's lead, but since Gallup had a lot bigger lead for her than Rasmussen, it's just now gotten to 9 points, the same as Rasmussen.

    So basically after two weeks of Hillary Clinton being pounded by the media, Obama both winning SC bigger than expected and getting the Kennedy endorsement, he still trails her 9 points in the tracking polls.  

    And tonight, regardless of the delegate issue, Clinton is very likely going to get a decent-sized victory in the most populous state to vote so far.  Even if the media totally botch it, and they will, it's still going to put some damper on whatever momentum Obama has.  

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#72)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:44:25 PM EST
    I just saw the PPP polls for Tenessee: Clinton still has a sizeable lead (just down 3 points from a week ago: 14 then, 11 now).

    So while there is some movement towards Obama, it's just amazing to see that after a week of the media proclaiming both Clintons to be evil racists, and headlines of "Obama rides into Camelot" with the Kennedy endorsement, most Democratic voters are just not that impressed.

    It speaks volumes to the strength of Clinton's base.


    Parent

    remember this is how the citizens (none / 0) (#177)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 07:49:10 PM EST
    responded during impeachment. they did not view the repubs with any high regard. and they won't view the media or a snotty, rude obama with any regard either.

    Parent
    Re: (none / 0) (#14)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:33:00 PM EST
    It seems absurd for the media to be taking arguments from both sides as to how much play a story should get.

    It's news, report it, just as you suggest.  People can decide for themselves if it matters to them.

    Based on MI I thought the media would be doing Axelrod's bidding but you're right, they wouldn't have Kerry making this argument unless they were concerned.

    Parent

    Do they want the Media to not cover (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:35:07 PM EST
    Hillary's speech in FL?

    That would be audacious.

    Parent

    What they want (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:52:16 PM EST
    is for the media to cover Hillary's speech, with the Beltway Boys chattering the whole time about what a transparent political stunt it is to try and make a big deal out of claiming victory in a state that doesn't matter.

    That might be too tall an order even for this media.  But I wouldn't rule it out!

    Parent

    in my opinion that would be a very bad (none / 0) (#176)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 07:46:59 PM EST
    call. many dems in florida are thinking voter suppression whether is is accurate or not. and a dem voter in another states doesn't want the demless wits like kerry who hasn't done much for us in the senate to preen and tell them they don't count.

    Parent
    Bravo... (none / 0) (#178)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 07:54:59 PM EST
    Perhaps. . . (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:36:40 PM EST
    the media can appreciate nuance enough to understand that Michigan and Florida are different kinds of contests given that in Michigan only Clinton of the front runners was on the ballot?

    Oh wait -- it's the media.

    Parent

    There will be results to report (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:39:53 PM EST
    woth vote totals for Clinton, Obama and Edwards.

    It is harder to ignore.

    Parent

    And her presence there to (none / 0) (#37)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:52:31 PM EST
    tell them what it all means...she'll get a lot of free coverage all day and all night.

    Parent
    After Feb 5th (none / 0) (#3)
    by kindness on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:21:56 PM EST
    thing's will settle.  Right now, with the emphasis on the MSM framing, everyone is running scared.

    Pay no attention to that man behind the screen!

    looks like it (none / 0) (#61)
    by Nasarius on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:28:49 PM EST
    As far as I can tell, the Obama campaign should be panicking. Unless there are multiple large upsets, Feb. 5 is going to be a Clinton landslide.

    It's really looking like Clinton/McCain is it, which is the worst possible scenario for us media-wise.

    Parent

    The primary reform issue (none / 0) (#6)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:25:15 PM EST
    Florida and Michigan want to create this as an issue to change the primary monopoly by Iowa and New Hampshire. There is a movement to make it an issue so that it can be reformed. I actually would like to see that.

    as an avowed (3.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:54:52 PM EST
    Clinton supporter, this might sound disengenuine, but I have to say that if the shoe was on the other foot, I would be supporting Obama in his quest to make Florida count.  

    And then I would spread an internet rumor about him wearing women's shoes.

    Parent

    I'd Like to Think I Would, Too (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:36:09 PM EST
    I can't believe so many progressive voices think that the nomination is better decided by excluding democratic voters.  I don't think Josh Marshall would be all "rules must be obeyed" if Obama were ahead in Florida and calling for the seating of the delegates.  He'd be all, "Clintons are trying to disenfranchise voters."

    The most important thing to me is that whoever the nominee is that he or she has the support of democratic voters.  In that regard, I don't care about delegates even though I know that's how the nominee will ultimately be chosen.  I care about popular vote.  Because delegates aren't who we need to mobilize and win in November.  Voters are.  I no more want to see Clinton win on delegates, but lose the popular votes than I want to see Obama.  Disasterous, as far as I'm concerned.

    Parent

    The rule are rules argument (none / 0) (#78)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:48:49 PM EST
    why I don't buy it. These are malleable political party rules and every good politician will use them to their advantage. So, if it was the other way around they would have used it and tried to get the advantage. Axelrod would have been fighting to save the poor voters of Florida from the shame of 2000. I tell you Florida and Michigan mean to make this a fight.

    Parent
    this is almost (none / 0) (#7)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:25:34 PM EST
    dishonest and very much like Fox News....those media types simply cannot make fun of Fox News anymore if they drink the same Kool-aide of dishonesty.....

    Originally (none / 0) (#8)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:26:32 PM EST
    the thought was that the primaries would have a winner and the delegates would be seated and there would not be a problem. Well, now there could be a big problem. Wow, old style delegate battles.

    1972 (none / 0) (#16)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:34:36 PM EST
    Willie Brown, brought down the convention when they questioned the California McGovern delegates: ""Give me back my delegation!" Those were the days....!!

    Sigh...same song? (none / 0) (#22)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:37:08 PM EST
    Second verse?

    Parent
    Mr. Chairman, the great state of Alaska, . . . . (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:37:31 PM EST
    Florida does matter (none / 0) (#21)
    by talkingpoint on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:37:02 PM EST
      and the people voices must be heard. If the media darling Obama was ahead in Florida, it would be dominating the headlines. It does not matter that the haters are lining up against the Clintons, because no matter what they say are do they cannot stop the Clintons. The haters will be pulling their hair out on Super Tuesday. who are the haters? Anderson Cooper, Wolf Blitzer and the entire CNN staff, Fox news, and 90% of all other media outlets. MSNBC appears to be giving both sides of the story lately. MSNBC appears to be the most neutral right now. Key word RIGHT NOW.

    if MSNBC (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by djork on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:26:56 PM EST
    is considered neutral these days, I can't imagine how bad it is at CNN, which I have not had a chance to see yet. Chris Matthews' man-crush on Obama is getting like he was with Bush on the aircraft carrier.

    Parent
    NYT has the "snub" photo on page A20 (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:40:25 PM EST
    in black and white with a caption including "as Senator Obama turns away."

    This photo and its placement in the NYT do not concern me.  Just giving you the facts.

    Parent

    would be on the front (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:43:36 PM EST
    page if it were the other way around sadly

    Parent
    Obama denies snubbing (none / 0) (#46)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:02:32 PM EST
    he would be better off (none / 0) (#49)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:05:07 PM EST
    not discussing it....lol.....just highlights it...and if he was speaking to another senator the press would have seen it....what a liar....

    Parent
    Apparently Axelrod had a different take: (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:22:50 PM EST
    Ah, Dueling Statements (none / 0) (#65)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:36:03 PM EST
    AXELROD: this was obviously an awkward day from that standpoint, and I don't think he wanted to stand there while Senator Kennedy was greeting Senator Clinton and I think that was an appropriate sentiment. Unfortunately, the camera caught it in a different way, and so it got interpreted that way and that's the kind of environment we're in right now. It's a very competitive race, so every little thing is going to be interpreted in that way- but it was really, I think, a matter of letting Senator Kennedy have his own conversation, his own greeting with senator clinton without him hovering over them.


    Parent
    So Once Again, Now We Know (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:38:53 PM EST
    What Obama Really Meant.

    Parent
    The W.O.R.M. turns (none / 0) (#174)
    by Xeno on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 07:17:09 PM EST
    That guy needs more interpreters than bush at the UN.

    Parent
    Sequence of photos via Newsday AP: (none / 0) (#88)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:03:33 PM EST
    holy moses (none / 0) (#95)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:14:44 PM EST
    Talk about daggers of hate.  He's staring at her like he wants to slit her throat.

    Parent
    I was ragging on "icily" last night (none / 0) (#98)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:17:36 PM EST
    but now I'm thinking that is pretty accurate.  He just wishes he could wear at red power suit.

    Parent
    Yep. BTW, I'd rather be next to Joe Biden (none / 0) (#103)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:35:14 PM EST
    as Hillary was, any day.  My, the man can run on at the mouth sometimes, but he stands so firmly and passionately for important issues.  Last night after the SOTU, when too much attention was going to BO's snub, Biden hammered away at Bush saying he's sending more troops to war.  Go, Joe!

    Parent
    oh, for the love of peeps (none / 0) (#132)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:34:02 PM EST
    New Obama ad has pics of Kennedy interspersed with pics of Obama.  Talk about messing with a legacy.  Am I just blinded by Hillary love, or is this WAY overplaying an endorsement?



    Parent
    I hear it is ru nning in florida (none / 0) (#137)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:46:00 PM EST
    I think they will never convince us older Americans that Obama is JFK....that is laughable...

    Parent
    Remember (5.00 / 0) (#140)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:53:33 PM EST
    what happened to New Coke?

    Parent
    New Coke (none / 0) (#146)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:04:22 PM EST
    HahaHAHAHA HA HA HA!!!

    (please pretend I inserted something interesting here)

    Parent

    That Sequence Of Pictures Definitely (none / 0) (#118)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:04:06 PM EST
    doesn't put Obama in a good light.

    Parent
    This is rich: (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:10:42 PM EST
    McCaskill said she had "a ringside seat" to the incident, which she described as being overblown by the media, because "everybody's spoiling for a fight, which is the politics of old."

    Parent
    McCaskill Should Definitely Know (none / 0) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:06:11 PM EST
    all about the politics of old. She has practiced those types of politics for a long time.

    Parent
    Question (none / 0) (#24)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:38:59 PM EST
    Florida is sort of a lightning rod from the 2000 election and people not getting their votes. Did the idiotic Democratic party want this circus? How will it look, Democratic establishment denies Florida the vote. At this time, the Democratic establishment alligning with Obama. Wonder how that will play in Peoria.

    But don't forget, the Republican-dominated (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:41:21 PM EST
    FL legislature set this up.

    Parent
    Yeah.... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:45:39 PM EST
    I don't think Michigan will sit and take it either.

    Parent
    Democratic Party (none / 0) (#43)
    by HeadScratcher on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:58:49 PM EST
    The National Party has the power to award delegates, not the FL legistlature. It's the DNC that chose this - put the blame where it should be...

    Parent
    The Fl legislature (none / 0) (#44)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:00:21 PM EST
    wanted the early primary. Then the Dem party said they would not seat the delegates. I think the Republicans are only giving half.

    Parent
    Actually, delegates vote to accept delegates (none / 0) (#106)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:38:03 PM EST
    or not, at the convention.  At least, that's always the way it has been . . . so it could mean more good tv watching ahead then.  And it could mean that the @#$$! networks actually will give the convention air time this time.  (I so miss the old days of nonstop convention coverage, which turned me into a politics junkie as a wee one!)

    Parent
    my sister (none / 0) (#25)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:39:51 PM EST
    lives in Florida and believe me she is pissed...she is voting for Hillary...Proudly!!!

    Yup...even with the ad buy... (none / 0) (#31)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:44:55 PM EST
    NOW Axelrod is worried.  The TV mentions that Hil is going to Florida every time her name comes up.  

    They couldn't counter with anybody better than Kerry?

    Sheesh.

    Too bad Lieberman wasn't available...

    Parent

    My Dad (none / 0) (#69)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:40:47 PM EST
    is furious as well.  He said in any other election year, he'd sit on his hands in November to teach the DNC a lesson, but this time the election is too important.  

    If I were Howard Dean, I'd insist on an armed escort before I went anywhere near the sunshine state.

    Parent

    by the way (none / 0) (#29)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:42:44 PM EST
    was just reading the reason that Obama got more delegates then Hillary in Nevada was from the "be a democrat" for a day thing and enough republicans crossed over for him in this one predominately Repubican caucus (a small number of people over all apparently) that it gave him one more delegate....again republicans twisting our choices in the democratic party....

    Well...they're not national (none / 0) (#33)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:48:19 PM EST
    delegates committed to candidates, are they?

    Caucus delegates go to county conventions, cong. dist. conventions, then the state...and THAT's where the bulk of the national delegates are chosen...that's my understanding, anyhow.

    So...depends on who shows up at each of those stages and gets the 15% eligibility floor for delegates.

    I used to like math...

    Parent

    Correct, caucuses get delegates only to county (none / 0) (#107)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:40:32 PM EST
    and/or state conventions, and state conventions select delegates for the national convention.

    The Obama camp's claims about delegates from caucuses are projections, not realities -- yet.

    And then, some state delegations are committed only in the first round, some only through the second round, etc., I read.

    Parent

    Yep. All the caucus states (none / 0) (#115)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:59:25 PM EST
    will be up for grabs right up until game time.

    Parent
    Traction? (none / 0) (#35)
    by kid oakland on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:50:42 PM EST
    It's sure been getting spun.

    We'll probably all be in traction (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:11:26 PM EST
    before this is over.

    Parent
    RFLMO.. (none / 0) (#53)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:12:13 PM EST
    never can get that acronym right, but I agree.

    Parent
    Wow. If the comments at TPM Election Central (none / 0) (#124)
    by jen on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:12:14 PM EST
    are any indication of Obama's success at uniting people, I'd say we're better off the way we are! Yoikes!


    Parent
    How sure (none / 0) (#41)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 01:57:18 PM EST
    are the Clinton's that they will win? Any polls? What are the odds of a backfire? From the fighting, they know something.

    Stellaaa (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:04:43 PM EST
    Clinton polls over Obama anywhere from 50-51% vs. 30-ish.  Based on my old fogey friends in Florida (OFF) Obama has really ticked off a lot of people who might have supported him by saying that Florida does not matter.

    I see that the spin, according to CNN, is:

    Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton sharply responded to that statement. "If the Clinton campaign's southern strength rests on the outcome in a state where they're the only ones competing, that should give Democrats deep pause."

    I wasn't aware that she was competing, but apparently, Obamians are trying to make it seem that way.  And of course the media is going to back up this charge, even though it's not true and Obama is the one whose been running national ads there.

    Parent

    Obama is competing with his ad buy on CNN (none / 0) (#54)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:14:17 PM EST
    Re: (none / 0) (#47)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:02:35 PM EST
    You can see the Florida polls here.

    Anything less than a double-digit win for Hillary (not spinning here, just saying) would be a bad omen.  This is perfect Hillary territory - old people, Latinos, New Yorkers, Cubans who hate the Kennedys...

    Parent

    Dunno about Cubans (none / 0) (#50)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:06:34 PM EST
    Remember that kid and Janet Reno..Cubans don't like the Clintons in that way.

    Parent
    Oops. And Reno just endorsed HRC. (none / 0) (#99)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:20:46 PM EST
    Of course, Obama is on record saying he favors lifting embargo on Cuba.

    Parent
    Don't count Florida Latinos (none / 0) (#112)
    by mexboy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:50:47 PM EST
    Cubans in Florida usually vote Republican.

    Parent
    Now this is politics (none / 0) (#57)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:22:13 PM EST
    This is the fun stuff in politics. Real maneuvers. In one corner Axelrod, the Chicago Machine and the Old line Dems, in the other Hillary, the Clinton machine and company. This is politics, not the twisting of word, the gyrations and implications.

    Clinton Has the Better Argument, IMO (none / 0) (#62)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:30:19 PM EST
    Obama is basically stuck arguing that Florida democrats votes shouldn't matter.  Even though it's a hugely populous state.  Even though the democratic party isn't the one who moved the primary.  Even with the ugly history of disenfranchising Floridian democrats.  

    If he's the nominee because Florida didn't get seated and so he won on "delegates", but essentially lost the popular vote, I fear the Democratic party really will tear itself to shreds.  Fortunately, I think that has little chance of happening.

    And, yes, I do think Clinton's calling for their seating is driven in part by the fact that she's likely to win.  But I do think it was smart for her to call for it before the primary and not just because it's a way to appeal to Floridians, but because she did it when she doesn't know how the vote or delegates would break down.  Polls have been wrong this year.  And I think she has a good argument for not doing it earlier - it would've completely undermined the DNC.  It still undermines them, but not nearly as much as it would've had she done it right after Dean announced the punishment.  

    But then I'm on record as saying that skipping Michigan and Florida - two critical states in November 2008 - is one of the dumbest things the Democratic party has done in awhile.  The primary schedule is a mess because the party didn't want to take on Iowa and NH.  It's the lack of party leadership for decades that has led to this and the answer is to disenfranchise party voters?  Idiots.    

    If you are calling Howard Dean (none / 0) (#73)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:44:35 PM EST
    an idiot, I hope your life insurance is fully paid.

    Whole lotta Deaniacs still out there....

    Parent

    I'm One Of Those Deaniacs That Are Still Out (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:26:21 PM EST
    there. IMO it was a dumb move. There had to be a better way to handle it. Especially in Florida since it was the Republican state legislation that decided to move the primary forward.

    Parent
    Eh (none / 0) (#87)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:03:11 PM EST
    The Deaniacs couldn't even beat John Kerry.  :-)

    No, I don't think Dean is an idiot about everything, but he is about this.  I can kind of see his argument re Michigan, but Florida was moved by the Republican-dominated legislature. And then there's the history, which still grates many down there.  

    Personally, I think Dean figured that there was no chance the nominee would be decided on delegates.  He'd "punish" them on the front end and then seat them on the back.  But the tightness of the race restricts what he can do right now.  I suspect Mr. Dean will be thrilled if either candidate could build a sizable lead so that the delegates will end up not mattering and so his little gambit doesn't end up in a bloody, drawn out convention fight that weakens whoever the ultimate nominee is.    

    Parent

    That is what I heard (none / 0) (#89)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:05:06 PM EST
    on the radio from the Florida and Michigan people. A nudge and a wink that they would get seated. No one thought it would be a close one.

    Parent
    Best-laid plans, etc. etc. (none / 0) (#92)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:08:03 PM EST
    BDB (none / 0) (#133)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:37:18 PM EST
    I am with you (and Dean).  No one could have guessed a year ago that it would come down to this tight race.

    But, I read on TPM that Obama has Ted Kennedy featured in a Spanish language ad they're doing in...Florida.  ???  I thought there was a pact?  Can someone tell me if it doesn't count if it's in Spanish?

    (also, I want to say again, that ad with Kennedy and Obama interspersed really annoys me.  Kennedy was OUR president. Using him like that just...ugh.)

    Parent

    If I Were Clinton (5.00 / 0) (#139)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:50:15 PM EST
    I'd say something like "Obama has said he wants to turn the page on the politics of the past.  We now know he wants to do that by going back to the politics of 1960.  I believe real change means going forward, not backward.  And I'm interested in the politics of 2060, not 1960."

    Or something like that.

    Parent

    BDB (none / 0) (#150)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:09:56 PM EST
    You had me at "If I were Clinton..."

    Totally agree with you.  This has got to be about disenfranchisement.  Obama's folks know they played this bad and they don't have time to do damage control.

    Well played by Clinton, I must say.  

    Parent

    i like dean fine but i completely (none / 0) (#179)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 07:55:28 PM EST
    disagree with this decison. maturity means that your favorites can make mistakes and admit it.

    Parent
    If Hillary (none / 0) (#64)
    by talkingpoint on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:31:27 PM EST
    wins Florida in single digits CNN and the other Pro Obama Media will spin this towards Obama favor. If Hillary wins big it will get little news, from media such as CNN. I must admit that when I use to hear the Republicans speak about bias media I thought they were full of crap, but I have witnessed that bias media is alive and well in America. My days of a CNN viewer is is reaching a climax.

    That's a dumb argument. (none / 0) (#67)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:37:08 PM EST
    A record turnout in Florida for Dem voters. More Democratic voters will be coming out than IA, NH, NV and SC combined.

    We don't know if there will be any delegates involved, but saying that the result won't mean anything is ridiculous.

    And that's a strong argument to make for Clinton. If the Obama campaign tries to poo-poo the result, they can say "I guess Obama is saying that the votes of 100s of thousands of Floridans are meaningless to him".

    Or, to draw another contrast: "I guess to Obama the endorsement of a few people are more important than the votes of 100s of thousands of Democratic voters." (I'd go for this one, it puts Clinton at the side of the people, vs. Obama the glamourous establishment candidate)

    Of course, this is the media we're talking about here. It'll be a footnote in the papers, and the main articles will be about Obama's "new politics" and how Bill Clinton is an evil meanie.


    no, the media spin (none / 0) (#77)
    by Tano on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:48:01 PM EST
    will be how John McCain is now the nominee.
    Or not yet.

    The Obama spin will be that Hillary will be looking silly claiming a victory in a state where there was no campaigning.
    And that is right, actually

    Parent

    Silly? (none / 0) (#80)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:52:08 PM EST
    So celebrating that a plurality (or even majority) of several 100,000 voters in Florida picked you as their candidate is sillier than celebrating that people named Kennedy endorsed you?

    I think that's very disdainful of Florida voters.


    Parent

    Thats a great argument (none / 0) (#82)
    by talkingpoint on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:54:56 PM EST
     and I see your point. well said.

    Parent
    Oh, so Hillary's word is worthless, huh? (none / 0) (#71)
    by tonyroma on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:44:04 PM EST
    "Hillary's word: It's worth nothing"

    COURTING VOTERS in Iowa and New Hampshire, last August Sen. Hillary Clinton signed a pledge not to "campaign or participate" in the Michigan or Florida Democratic primaries. She participated in both primaries and is campaigning in Florida. Which proves, again, that Hillary Clinton is a liar.

    Clinton kept her name on the Michigan ballot when others removed theirs, she campaigned this past weekend in Florida, and she is pushing to seat Michigan and Florida delegates at the Democratic National Convention. The party stripped those states of delegates as punishment for moving up their primary dates.

    "I will try to persuade my delegates to seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida," Clinton said last week, after the New Hampshire primaries and Iowa caucuses were safely over.

    Clinton coldly and knowingly lied to New Hampshire and Iowa. Her promise was not a vague statement. It was a signed pledge with a clear and unequivocal meaning.

    She signed it thinking that keeping the other candidates out of Michigan and Florida was to her advantage, but knowing she would break it if that proved beneficial later on. It did, and she did.

    New Hampshire voters, you were played for suckers.
    http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Hillary's+word:+It's+worth+nothing&articleId=08 53268a-d982-4190-81e8-740ae942f510

    Thanks for playing right into the narrative of Hillary being for nothing but her own ambitions.  Most people understand that a signed pledge isn't a suggestion, its a promise.  Hillary proves again that she's incapable of being honest.  The rest of this nation is noticing even if those in Florida aren't.

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:47:14 PM EST
    She hasn't violated the pledge whatsoever.

    Obama has technically violated the pledge by running national ads that are shown in Florida, but nobody considers that a serious issue.

    Parent

    Remember, just a few days ago (none / 0) (#175)
    by ding7777 on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 07:31:18 PM EST
    Obama's campaign was saying that because of the complexity of National ad they could not exclude Florida tv.

    Well, now they can do targeted state ads

    Barack Obama is airing state-specific ads


    Parent
    New Hampshire? (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:06:59 PM EST
    I'm afraid NH is under the impression that what it thinks continues to matter.  It got its disproportionate say earlier this month.  

    The Iowa and NH monopolies cannot end soon enough for me.  I don't care that Clinton won NH.  It's still ridiculous.

    Parent

    Re: (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:23:17 PM EST
    This isn't even what New Hampshire thinks.  It's an editorial in NH's Republican newspaper, that's all.

    Parent
    And it's the second time (none / 0) (#110)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:45:43 PM EST
    they've published the same crock.  So who cares?


    Parent
    About Those Pledges (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:50:06 PM EST
    Published: September 30, 2007
    TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

    Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.
    Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.
    ...
    But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.
    The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences."Link



    Parent
    Kerry the Right Obama Spokesman (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:29:12 PM EST
    Since Obama was for seating the delegates before he was against it.

    Parent
    But Only If (none / 0) (#141)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:54:32 PM EST
    he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee. So much for the rules are the rules.

    We have gone from IARIYAR to IARIYABO.

    Parent

    Think I Got That A Little Mixed Up (none / 0) (#148)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:07:16 PM EST
    It should read:

    We have gone from IOKIYAR to IOKIYABO.

    So much for showing how good I'm at blog jargon.

    Parent

    Been in politics long? (none / 0) (#76)
    by oldpro on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:47:23 PM EST
    BULLSH*T (none / 0) (#79)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:49:42 PM EST
    None of that is true and anyone who takes the time to read about it knows it.

    Parent
    And what part of NO do you not understand? (none / 0) (#104)
    by tonyroma on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:36:35 PM EST
    Excuse me?  Isn't Hillary requesting that delegates from both Michigan and Florida be seated at the convention?  Isn't this expressly what the pledge denies in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS?

    I guess its no surprise that Clinton supporters espouse the same lack of ethics that she and Bill do.  I truly wonder if her supporters are so myopic that they can't see just how ruthless all these attempts at changing the rules after the race has already  started appear to people just looking for honesty and integrity from their elected officials.

    The politics of "win at all costs" is gone, or at least its in its death throes.  Winning should be based on being the favored candidate, not on gaming the system in your favor.  Quick question:
    Do any of you truly believe if Florida was open for campaigning that Hillary would win by 20 pts?  Once each state actually sees and hears from the candidates, her numbers drop like a stone and Obama's rise; Survey USA has California at 9 points today and Obama hasn't even hit it in full force yet.

    Parent

    What Part Of If Obama Was Leading In FL (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:00:08 PM EST
    he would be taking the same position that Clinton is now don't you understand.

    TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.Link



    Parent
    Correct Link (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:36:35 PM EST
    Link

    It works now.

    Parent

    Link doesn't work. (none / 0) (#153)
    by jen on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:22:40 PM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    Thanks - Fixed It Below n/t (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:37:24 PM EST
    Obviously, you are quite challenged (none / 0) (#109)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:44:09 PM EST
    so it probably will do no good to explain, however, delegates are seated by vote at the convention. The DNC has no voice in not seating any delegation unless there is no seating vote taken.  In years past, there have been many fights over which set of delegates got seated, note especially 1968.

    By the way, the vaunted pledge said that candidates would not campaign in Michigan and Florida.  Candidates do not control the seating of delegations.  That's all, got it now Oborg?


    Parent

    Stop being dishonest! (1.00 / 2) (#119)
    by tonyroma on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:05:49 PM EST
    There are NO delegates to seat because the election was DECERTIFIED by the DNC!  Everyone agreed to this, and signed on to this.  Now at the 11th hour all the Clinton supporters want to change the rules?  Thats rich.  Why don't we go back to SC and recount the votes so that blacks only count 3/5ths?  Hell, that was even listed in our founding documents when it came to proportioning representation, and none of the current Democrats even signed the documents!.

    The Democratic voters in Florida have been long aware that their primary was nothing more than a beauty contest, ie. meaningless in any political sense.  Why don't all of you just admit that because of Hillary's name recognition and the fact no candidates have campaigned in Florida, she's likely to win running away?  But to call this as equivalent to other states that experienced firsthand retail politics is ludicrous.  Its an affront to honesty wrapped in the moral invisibility of "letting the voter's votes count."  They will...come November.

    Parent

    HaHaHa, you sound like you're 12 (none / 0) (#149)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:08:54 PM EST
    You're too kind. n/t (none / 0) (#151)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:15:41 PM EST
    Re: (none / 0) (#114)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:57:33 PM EST
    No, that's not what the pledge denies, let alone "in no uncertain terms."

    You seem to view screaming as a substitute for accuracy.  Personally that's not my view.

    If you truly believe that Hillary will lose anywhere the candidates actually campaign, then just wait one week and all your dreams will be realized.  No need to flip your lid.

    Parent

    No it isn't. . . (none / 0) (#116)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:59:40 PM EST
    Isn't Hillary requesting that delegates from both Michigan and Florida be seated at the convention?  Isn't this expressly what the pledge denies in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS?

    Absolutely not, and it doesn't strike me you've been following the the issue particularly closely.

    The candidates pledged not to campaign in or participate in the primary elections in Michigan or Florida.  For the most part they didn't -- with some technical exceptions (Obama's national ad buy leaking into Florida, his surrogates "vote uncommitted" campaign in Michigan).  Also, there is some question about whether the pledge should have led candidates to remove their names from the election ballots in both states -- Edwards and Obama did in Michigan.

    Nothing about the pledge requires a candidate to adopt any particular attitude about how the delegates should be seated at the convention.  As long as they're not counted for the initial votes that decide the seating rules, the pledge has been upheld.

    Any candidate, assuming s/he has sufficient support to win a majority of delegates even with the disputed states will push to have them seated in the first round.  Because they're not dumb.  The only problem occurs if the math is such that Obama has a majority without the MI and FL delegates and Clinton has a majority with them.

    Then it will be a mess.

    Parent

    Per your final paragraph: but so much (none / 0) (#121)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:06:28 PM EST
    more interesting.  Lets also speculate:  if Obama wins the nomination, who will he select to be the keynote speaker at the convention?

    Parent
    Re: (none / 0) (#122)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:10:54 PM EST
    Just FYI, Clinton's surrogates were also doing some very low-key campaigning in MI, reminding supporters to get out and vote and such.

    Parent
    Are Clinton Supporters as dense as they appear? (none / 0) (#126)
    by tonyroma on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:19:52 PM EST
    Good Lord people, have you no integrity whatsoever?  Is distorting the truth the coin of your realm?  Why not go to the "internets" and actually learn what is factual and what's a figment of your hyperactive imaginations?

    The lawsuit, filed this month by Florida's leaders in Congress, accuses the Democratic National Committee and state officials with the unconstitutional and "wholesale disenfranchisement" of Florida's 4 million Democratic voters.

    The plaintiffs want the US District Court in Tallahassee, Fla., to undo the DNC's sanctions against Florida for its early primary date. Those sanctions stripped Florida of all its delegates to the 2008 Democratic convention, where the national delegate count determines the party's White House nominee.

    Without delegates, the lawsuit alleges, the results of Florida's Jan. 29 primary will be moot, denying a voice to all of the state's Democratic voters - and particularly its blacks, who disproportionately vote Democratic.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1016/p01s01-uspo.html

    Btw, Florida LOST the lawsuit.  Care to restate your notion of what this means?  What do the words "stripped of delegates" mean?  In my dictionary they don't equate to an option for seating later regardless of how you try and spin this.

    Parent

    Go away. (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:25:13 PM EST
    If there's any incorrect information in my comment, feel free to quote it and post evidence to the contrary.

    If not, please don't do to this site what so many crazed refugees from Democratic Underground have done to Daily Kos.

    PS: I'm an undecided (between Clinton and Obama) voter.

    Parent

    So being wrong is RIGHT? (none / 0) (#135)
    by tonyroma on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:40:28 PM EST
    Are these not your words?

    Nothing about the pledge requires a candidate to adopt any particular attitude about how the delegates should be seated at the convention.

    And aren't these the words of the DNC?

    ...sanctions stripped Florida of all its delegates to the 2008 Democratic convention....

    So the courts are wrong and you're right Larry?  I don't think so.  You are the one who needs to go away and learn reading comprehension before lashing out at someone only pointing out that you, yourself are wrong, not me as you accused.

    NOW, of course I know politics.  There is a difference between what's been upheld in federal court and the reality of what likely happens at the convention.  But on the facts, you're wrong, and the above post proves it.

    Parent

    I beg your pardon? (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:47:39 PM EST
    What do the Florida courts have to do with the pledge the candidates signed?  Are you suggesting there's some relationship?

    The Florida courts ruled that the DNC plans for the convention are legal -- those plans call for seating the delegates less MI and FL and then having those delegates vote on the rules for conducting the convention.

    A vote will almost certainly be taken on the matter of seating the MI and FL delegates.  Clinton has called for her delegates to vote "Yes" on that matter -- just as Obama has hinted he will.

    Everything is completely in accordance with both the pledge and the court ruling.

    Parent

    All I can do is point to the language. (none / 0) (#142)
    by tonyroma on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:54:37 PM EST
    I still haven't found your notions in either the court papers nor the DNC website.  I'm not saying your last post wasn't correct, just that I can't verify it.

    My point about the courts was Florida already lost a lawsuit to overturn the language I just posted above.  To me, it contradicts what you say is your understanding.

    Parent

    I'm not saying. . . (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:00:05 PM EST
    that you're a sentient alien fish creature sent to Earth from the planet Pookyfishfish to take over our supply of krill through fraudulent speculation in high risk securitized mortgages.

    I just can't verify that you're not.

    Please -- either you know that the information in my comment that you claimed is wrong really is wrong or else you don't actually have the facts of the matter to hand and you shouldn't be making outrageous charges in a public forum.

    Parent

    haha (none / 0) (#147)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:06:46 PM EST
    he wants our krill?

    Parent
    Cool itn Tonyroma (none / 0) (#172)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:50:38 PM EST
    Take this attitude back to Daily Kos.

    Parent
    For you to discuss knowledge of (none / 0) (#128)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:25:17 PM EST
    someone elses integrety is laughable...Grow up...

    Parent
    gee, take a chill pill. (none / 0) (#180)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 07:58:52 PM EST
    you sound kinda desperate. why is that?

    Parent
    Once again (none / 0) (#83)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:55:15 PM EST
    You are shilling for the Republican party....Congratulations on your lack of integrity for what you just wrote there...as none of it is true or it is twisted for your own reality.......There is no way under God's green earth Obama can win an election with his Rezko garbage etc....you are just playing into their hands....

    Parent
    Florida and Michigan (none / 0) (#130)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:27:43 PM EST
    want this to be an issue. They want to change the primary system. They are eager for fight and so are many other states.

    Parent
    Reporting. Try it some time Media. (none / 0) (#74)
    by Tano on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:45:26 PM EST
    Oh, like you think they arent going to report the numbers????

    The Smart Move (none / 0) (#86)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 02:59:24 PM EST
    Now HRC can say, she wants Florida to be heard. She gets the vote. February 5th, if HRC is clear winner, she can adhere to the rules and look good. ( I don't know to who) But if not she can fight to save the Florida votes. What are Obama's options: Argue the rules are rules. February 5, if he is ahead, he will have to fight the fight at the convention. He can say that he is gracious and law abiding. So he gets the perceived moral high ground. But since this is politics, what does it matter to anyone other than the Media or the Mainstream Blogopundings?

    80+ percent of news coverage tonight... (none / 0) (#93)
    by mike in dc on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:09:03 PM EST
    ...will be the GOP race there.  For the 20% coverage of the Dem primary, half of it will involve a pre-qualifying statement that it probably won't count.  

    So, I think she won't get a big bump, though she might get a small one out of Florida.  If it counted, she'd get a huge bump--but then again, if it counted, she probably would have a tougher time winning there, because it would really be contested between the three of them.

    I might be wrong but (none / 0) (#94)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:13:32 PM EST
    I really don't think that Hillary's supporters will be easily appeased....if the polls are correct, and who knows, she is still maintaining a lead nationally that is impressive and nothing is really moving it so far....at this point in my life, and I will be 63 on Friday, I am really impressed with the independence of the American voter....It is wonderful and I am proud to be one of them....

    athyrio (none / 0) (#100)
    by Kathy on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:21:32 PM EST
    I am not 63, but I am, too.  No matter what the establishment wants, the voters are speaking.  I think a lot resent the strong-arming with these endorsements, and the vitriol toward Bill Clinton.  Culinary Union split is the perfect example: don't tell us who you think we should vote for!  

    I may be wrong, but I think it's going to backfire, and I hope she is keeping count of the people who are knifing her in the back.  Not that I think it'll stop her from getting things done, but I think Kennedy's invitation to her birthday party might get lost in the mail.

    (ps: happy pre-birthday!)

    Parent

    One more thing.. (none / 0) (#102)
    by TheRealFrank on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:29:07 PM EST
    If I were the Clinton campaign (Mark Penn, move over), I'd know a way to get Florida into the news if other ways fail: have Bill say something.

    Journalists right now are just salivating and waiting for an opportunity to report that he said something "bad" again.

    Well, have him say that "the Obama campaign are saying that the Florida results didn't matter. Well, I don't know if they will get their delegates, but I think that it's very elitist and disrespectful to several 100,000 voters to tell them that their votes don't matter."

    You bet it would be reported.

    But hey, let's face it, not everyone is a great campaign manager like I would be.. sigh... ;-)


    Plus, if Bill says something. . . (none / 0) (#105)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:36:48 PM EST
    several thousand Obama supporters are likely to keel over from apoplexy -- a double win in the 2/5 states.

    As long as whatever Bill says doesn't involve a yacht called "Monkey Business" I'm all for it.

    Parent

    Why don't you design a poll (none / 0) (#108)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:41:37 PM EST
    so we can vote ahead of time on what Bill is most likely to say?  One press report I read of his appearance today in NJ mentioned he didn't say anything out of line.  

    Parent
    Does Anyone Have A Link To The (none / 0) (#113)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:56:41 PM EST
    ACTUAL pledge that the presidential candidates signed?  I have seen it referenced over and over again but have never seen the actual document and am interested in the exact wording. My google skills are primative and I have been unable to locate it on my own.

    Re: (none / 0) (#117)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:03:54 PM EST
    WHEREAS, Over a year ago, the Democratic National Committee established a 2008 nominating calendar;
    WHEREAS, this calendar honors the racial, ethnic, economic and geographic diversity of our party and our country;
    WHEREAS, the DNC also honored the traditional role of retail politics early in the nominating process, to insure that money alone will not determine our presidential nominee;
    WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar.
    THEREFORE, I _____, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.


    Parent
    Thanks n/t (none / 0) (#123)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:11:52 PM EST
    Name recognition (none / 0) (#125)
    by G Davis on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:15:26 PM EST
    The Florda and Michigan votes would be more interesting if all the candidates were nationally recognized names.  As it is, it's pretty uninformed.

    I fault the party for not getting it's stuff together on any level throughout this whole process.  Good grief, why should the voters be punished simply because a bunch of wanna be pols at all levels can't settle their differences?

    One more reason to vote against the status quo...maybe they'll all get the idea that the voters are the ones who should count, not them.

    So are you one of those who thinks that (none / 0) (#134)
    by Teresa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 04:39:10 PM EST
    anyone who takes the time to vote doesn't know who Obama is. Give me a break. He's on every channel I have.

    Parent
    No... (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by G Davis on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:34:09 PM EST
    Sorry, I did not mean to offend.  

    There are a great many voters who aren't on very political blogs as you are.

    You seriously think there are numbers that vote on name recognition?

    Parent

    According to polls (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Steve M on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:36:29 PM EST
    Hillary has 99% name recognition, Obama has 96%.

    Parent
    You're fine, I was snappy. Sorry. (none / 0) (#160)
    by Teresa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:04:58 PM EST
    I agree with your opinion on the voters being punished when they aren't at fault.

    And honestly, anyone who doesn't know who Obama, Hillary and even Edwards are by now, probably isn't going to vote anyway.

    Parent

    and maybe (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:08:32 PM EST
    should not vote. :)

    Parent
    or saw the mixed pictures of (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:16:12 PM EST
    JFK and Obama and think they are voting for Jack...again.

    Parent
    No problem (none / 0) (#185)
    by G Davis on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:14:51 PM EST
    No problem...I'm the new kid on the block so y'all don't know my style yet.

    The name recognition thing is real though...look at the stunning collapse of Rudy's polling when the other candidates got face to face with the voters.

    I just don't think it's good to get too cocky about a vote that had no campaign.  It could come to bite one in the ass later... ;0


    Parent

    hey the polls are looking good (none / 0) (#152)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:18:45 PM EST
    well they are if you are a Hillary supporter...lol......Geez they throw all their weapons at her and still not enough?? This is almost funny if it wasn't so sad....

    So Bill Shut up (none / 0) (#158)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:50:44 PM EST
    But will Kerry? Reminds me of a school fight, when Hillary had Bill defending her, everyone was saying: Huh, she is weak she needs her husband. Now, Obama has to get his old uncles to fight for him so he can just do the inspiring in the bubble of the campaign, protect the Obama story.

    I just dont think Kerry helps him (none / 0) (#159)
    by Judith on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 05:58:59 PM EST
    so he can chatter on and confuse the cr* p out of people for all I care.

     

    Parent

    they will twist everything (none / 0) (#166)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:17:36 PM EST
    that bill and hillary do...they always do...but the american people aint falling for it thank god so far...

    Parent
    Now I just heard (none / 0) (#167)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:21:45 PM EST
    He will bring his big sister, Oprah to California

    Parent
    MSM no clue about Calif (none / 0) (#168)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:23:50 PM EST
    Obama dissed the Asians, so the main Democratic clubs are going for Hillary. Asians have money. Asians remember. He would not agree to give Asians appointments, the head of Asian Dems, said if they don't agree they will not do it.

    Parent
    I have heard (none / 0) (#169)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:35:22 PM EST
    that Oprah is losing viewership but she probably doesnt care because she is so wealthy...

    Parent
    oh i think she cares. (none / 0) (#183)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:03:44 PM EST
    she is all about being famous, so being all that means a lot to her.

    Parent
    Oprah (none / 0) (#170)
    by PlayInPeoria on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:38:12 PM EST
    took alott of heat last time. Viewers did not like her getting involved.

    This may all backfire on Sen Obama. Citizens may view this as being TOO aggressive. Partner that with the recent picture portraying him as snubbing her.... this could go either way. I really thing it will motivate Hillary's base. May be influencing FL vote.

    Parent

    thats probably very true (none / 0) (#171)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:45:49 PM EST
    about Oprah, because at this point most people particularly women have already made up their minds....Not a good move on his part maybe ....and the florida percentages will encourage this base of women too....

    Parent
    i have been thinking about that. (none / 0) (#182)
    by hellothere on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:02:21 PM EST
    with all of the hoopla before south carolina, i don't see how oprah will be any type of rainmaker. in fact there might be a backlash. a number of her viewers have not responded well.

    Parent
    hollow victory (none / 0) (#162)
    by javaman on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:13:55 PM EST
    She signed a pledge and now she wants to break it, great leadership

    she didnt break it (3.00 / 2) (#163)
    by athyrio on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:16:07 PM EST
    However your God Obama sure did....he ran ads on CNN down there and he also held a press conference down there all of it not suppose to do...you are just mad cause Obama isnt winning Florida...sour grapes...

    Parent
    MSM (none / 0) (#165)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 06:17:21 PM EST
    Russert the pig is playing that game.

    Parent
    don't support obama (none / 0) (#181)
    by javaman on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 08:02:13 PM EST
    I like edwards and think he would be better than the two of them

    Yeah (none / 0) (#184)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 11:11:04 PM EST
    but what do we do now? I am political realist. I want to clean up government. I think we have to bring back the idea of public purpose. I do not want that comprimised. I want government cleaned up, cause in the end, it helps people.

    Parent
    Comments Now Closing (none / 0) (#186)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:16:47 AM EST
    Thanks to all for your comments. They are closing now.