On Iraq: Bush Wants To Stay; What Do Dems Want?

By Big Tent Democrat, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 12:47:23 PM EST
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Atrios writes:

I've been saying for along time that Bush's Iraq policy is "staying."

He says Dems are afraid of "Karl Rove." Are they? What will the Dems do about Iraq? September is here. What say you Dems? Will you capitulate again?

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On Iraq: Bush Wants To Stay; What Do Dems Want? | 47 comments (47 topical)

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read jayackroyd (5.00 / 2) (#1)
by selise on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 01:36:55 PM EST

jayackroyd posits that the washington concensus is to stay for at least 5 more years:

This leaves the Democratic candidates in a very difficult position. They are part of this Washington consensus. Their staffers tell them that it is irresponsible to call for a rapid withdrawal, and that it would be a disastrous policy. So they don't talk about withdrawal. They talk about redeployment. They leave room for those 50,000 soldiers to remain there for, variously, border protection, force protection, pursuit of terrorists, training. None of these candidates intends to leave. And none of them can say so. (Nor, you'll notice, will the gutless VSP say anything. They know how unpopular this will be. Hence all the bafflegab.

strongly recommend to all - read the whole thing, and don't neglect the comments, jayackroyd has some especially important ones near the end.

read edger (5.00 / 2) (#2)
by selise on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 01:44:40 PM EST

looks like edger comes at similar conclusion from a slightly different direction.

Parent

Washington Consensus? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:01:49 PM EST

The Washington Consensus Of Iraq Reality Is Delusion

Parent

not the point... (5.00 / 1) (#6)
by selise on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:18:11 PM EST

i agree with your post - but that's not what jayackroyd was getting at... did you read all his comment towards the end? he's trying to understand the political reality... so we can better know how to change it, to something more like what you describe.

Parent

Yes - I read them all. (5.00 / 2) (#8)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:24:51 PM EST

The reality of the Washington Consensus is obvious.

And it is delusion. And the only way to change it is to make them realize that they will have their seats and their power taken from them by the voters if they do not come to their senses.

IMHO.

Parent

intermediate step... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
by selise on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:40:01 PM EST

make them realize that they will have their seats and their power taken from them by the voters if they do not come to their senses.

that's kinda hard to do, when they won't actually tell us what they think. they pretend to have one policy goal to please us, and a diametrically opposed policy goal to please the VSP in the foreign policy clericy.

jay's point, i understand correctly, is that we need to start telling the truth about this... so that there can be something like a honest national dialogue.

then we'll be in a better position to do just as you suggest - attempt to vote the imperialists out of office.

Parent

When they won't actually tell us what they think? (5.00 / 2) (#11)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:42:57 PM EST

When they won't actually tell us what they think they are trying to mislead, i.e. lying, and deserve no support.

Parent

do both? (none / 0) (#12)
by selise on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:51:56 PM EST

if we target all the pols who lie to us, we'd have to get rid of the more than 90% of them.

what's wrong with trying to change the washington consensus?

why not have a real discussion of the costs and continuing on this path and the costs of changing?

it's going to cost us something to change from our current path - don't we have an obligation to understand that and attempt to justify it? if we aren't willing to have that honest conversation why would any pol try to make us?

Parent

We can talk forever. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:57:03 PM EST

And while we talk instead of do, all we do is talk.

Threaten them with loss of the seats and power next year. If they perceive it as a real threat with teeth they will act on it.

If they don't they won't.

Parent

To use an crude analogy (5.00 / 2) (#15)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:09:03 PM EST

I have two kidneys. One of them works just fine. The other was malformed at birth and over the past 55 years has been slowly growing scar tissue to the point that a few months ago it finally blocked and shutdown and started pumping toxins back into my bloodstream instead of removing toxins.

It is not doing the job it is there to do. And it will continue to poison the rest of my body as long as I let it.

There is no point in talking to it if it will not do it's job. I could talk to it forever and it will continue to poison me.

Tomorrow I go into hospital to have it cut out.

So I might miss a couple of days blogging. You'll have to make up for me. ;-)

Parent

If That Is True (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by squeaky on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:22:32 PM EST

I wish you good luck and a speedy recovery. Sounds like a big deal.

Parent

It's true. (5.00 / 2) (#19)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:33:10 PM EST

My sister had the same problem exactly, same operation, complete recovery within 2 weeks. One kidney does the job just fine. It's a common laparascopic operation (nephrectomy), very successful 99.9 of the time and I am in very good health otherwise, so the surgeons expect no complications and I should be home the next day, or maybe Thursday if they decide to force me to rest. Which they'll have a hard time doing without chaining me to the hospital bed.

It's not as big a deal as making the Democrats do their job is turning out to be.

Maybe it's time for a politico-ectomy? :-)

Parent

I'll be thinking of you. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
by oculus on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:14:06 PM EST

Take care.

P.S. It will be really quiet here!

Parent

: Well the... I expect ::you:: (none / 0) (#33)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:29:40 PM EST

to YELL LOUDER!! ;-)
Somebody has to wake these people up!

Parent

OY (none / 0) (#21)
by squeaky on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:37:01 PM EST

I will be thinking of you. Any trip to the hospital makes me nervous.

Parent

Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#23)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:46:10 PM EST

I generally avoid the places myself, but I'm glad they're there when you need them, and what the hell, the kidney was free and it lasted me 55 years, so I figure it was a pretty good deal. ;-) I have a good surgeon who's done this about 250 times with never a complication, so I'm not too worried.

Parent

Nice To See (5.00 / 2) (#27)
by squeaky on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:06:07 PM EST

That you are in good humor about it all....

Maybe it's time for a politico-ectomy? :-)

Parent

Well... the problem is (5.00 / 1) (#29)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:09:24 PM EST

I've been warned here before by someone(??) that suggesting beheading is not really a very good idea here... ;-)

Heh!

Parent

: ha (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by squeaky on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:16:20 PM EST

even better

Parent

Thanks for your good wishes, Squeaky. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:33:57 PM EST

Parent

Good luck.... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
by desertswine on Tue Sep 04, 2007 at 10:09:42 AM EST

Good Sir. Come home soon.

Parent

Take good care friend (5.00 / 1) (#46)
by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 04, 2007 at 12:47:36 PM EST

I will be sending warm healing thoughts in your direction. Please let us know how you are. My grandfather ended up with only one kidney too, doesn't the one remaining healthy kidney grow in size a bit too to take up the slack?

Parent

Best wishes for a quick recovery, Edger (5.00 / 1) (#47)
by Alien Abductee on Tue Sep 04, 2007 at 02:11:44 PM EST

Parent

Thanks, Al-Ab , D'Swine & Tracy. (none / 0) (#48)
by Edger on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 12:40:23 PM EST

I don't know if the other kidney will get any bigger, but I just got home from the hospital and everything when according to plan with no surprises or complications and I feel quite good actually, other than a little tired, so I'm going get some sleep in my own bedroom for awhile and I'll be back here later. You can't get rid of me that easy! :-)

Thank you all for your kind thoughts...

Parent

: Nice (5.00 / 1) (#49)
by squeaky on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:30:19 PM EST

That you survived that ordeal and are back with us. You were missed.

Parent

we need to start telling the truth about this.... (none / 0) (#13)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:54:11 PM EST

Here's a good start:

"Ancient History": U.S. Conduct in the Middle East
Since World War II and the Folly Of Intervention

War On Terror: The Rise Of The Politics of Fear:
Nightmares, Lies And Manipulations

Parent

BTD (5.00 / 1) (#22)
by selise on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:41:11 PM EST

only a little OT...

thought you might enjoy (or be interested) in this interview with John Stauber (scroll down to August 19, 2007). good discussion of the dem party, netroots and iraq.

Listening (none / 0) (#24)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:55:55 PM EST

Excellent so far.

Thanks.

Parent

I will feature this tomorrow (none / 0) (#25)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:59:30 PM EST

in a piece with my Guardian article on a similar subject being published tomorrow.

Parent

Yet another NYT review of The Argument. (none / 0) (#28)
by oculus on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:06:48 PM EST

This time by Nick Gillespie, editor in chief of Reason magazine. LINK

Parent

Idiotic review (none / 0) (#32)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:27:37 PM EST

Bai is a fool. Gillespie is a pompous fool.

Parent

: Ugh, talk about a terrible review (none / 0) (#38)
by andgarden on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:44:48 PM EST

An aside: I hope Markos really does write a book about Libertarian Democrats. He hasn't yet articulated what that means to my satisfaction, and his Reason article wasn't really much help.

Parent

glad you like the interview (none / 0) (#34)
by selise on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:39:13 PM EST

will look forward to reading your post and article tomorrow.

Parent

One last thing (none / 0) (#26)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:05:25 PM EST

Forward this to Glenn Greenwald.

Fantastic interview. I have read Stauber in the past and I do not know why, but it did not hit me as particualrly effective at highlighting the issues discussed.

But this is first rate.

Parent

uh.... (none / 0) (#35)
by selise on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:40:19 PM EST

better if you forward it too glenn?... g

Parent

Sure (5.00 / 1) (#39)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:54:38 PM EST

Got the impression you were friends with him.

I am friendly with Glenn obviously but seemed like you knew him.

Parent

not personally... (none / 0) (#41)
by selise on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 05:09:45 PM EST

i've been reading his blog since a few weeks after he started it, and commenting much of that time. who knows, maybe he's learned to hate me and my comments? but i've hosted some audio files for him and he was amazingly helpful last year when some of us were visiting our senator's offices to lobby for feingold's censure resolution.

i'm a big, big fan of glenn's, and i suppose i suffer from the conceit that one can know a person a little bit through their writing.

... i just think that an email from you is likely to be taken more seriously than some random commenter?

Parent

Well (5.00 / 3) (#42)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 05:19:02 PM EST

I listen to commenters sometimes more than other bloggers. Ask them.

Parent

: Heh! That's true... (5.00 / 3) (#43)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 05:50:30 PM EST

But they have to BE LOUD sometimes to be heard through the blast from your megaphone, don't they?.... rolls eyes, ;>)
</friendly humor & slight sarcasm>

Parent

Wow, you'd think Stauber has been reading BTD (none / 0) (#40)
by andgarden on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 04:57:49 PM EST

Parent

given last 10 mos, 7 yrs, 27 yrs (none / 0) (#3)
by seabos84 on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 01:56:48 PM EST

whining about meanie thugs and crying about despicable liars and sniveling about unethical liars

AND, btw

losing, selling out, losing...

I've been praying my atheist prayer since I was 20 in 1980 that the Dems would do more than make excuses for compromising with fascists, and

i've sent the excuse makers money hard earned money and I've done phone bank / doorbell / whatnot for the lame-o excuse makers, so

my bet is htat they roll over for halliburton to clean the cash drawer, AGAIN.

what the heck, LTV and Westinghouse are gone!

rmm.

Horses (none / 0) (#5)
by koshembos on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:14:50 PM EST

I cannot stop the war in Iraq; I don't have not enough influence to do that.

Most Democrats want to stop the war in Iraq; they don't the horse (i.e. numbers) to do it.

Screaming is not going to help.

: Let them show us that. (5.00 / 2) (#9)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:30:12 PM EST

Parent
: I don't have not enough influence (none / 0) (#7)
by Edger on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 02:22:02 PM EST

to do that?
A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.

Parent

seats taken from them, come to thier senses?? (none / 0) (#16)
by rumaco on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:10:24 PM EST

your post is absolutely 100% correct in every single way............that is why we took the presidency.....you lost....get over it!

trolling? (none / 0) (#17)
by rumaco on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 03:11:41 PM EST

Isn't that what they do in SAN FRANCISCO KALIFORNIA?

I think ... (none / 0) (#44)
by chemoelectric on Mon Sep 03, 2007 at 08:56:23 PM EST

... the Dems will pass some kind of tuition tax credit, again and again for 100 hours, to satisfy us so we won't bug them about Iraq. That ought to work, no?

On Iraq: Bush Wants To Stay; What Do Dems Want? | 47 comments (47 topical)

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