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Obama Speech: He'd Send Troops Into Pakistan

Barack Obama is speaking today at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington, D.C. ABC reports in an attempt to "seem more muscular" on foreign policy, he is suggesting we withdraw troops from Iraq but redeploy forces into Afghanistan and Pakistan to hunt down terrorists. From speech excerpts:

There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al Qaeda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will."

What's this all about?

[It seems to be] an attempt by Obama to ramp up his campaign to the next phase, where he hopes to seem not only a youthful idealist, but a president who would pursue a muscular foreign policy and protect the United States from terrorist attack.

....In many ways, the speech is counterintuitive; Obama, one of the more liberal candidates in the race, is proposing a geopolitical posture that is more aggressive than that of President Bush.

It could be just me, but I'm not in favor of sending our troops in Iraq anywhere but home to the U.S.

More from Obama's speech:

Obama will propose in his speech a more aggressive stance with that nuclear nation, making the "hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. military aid to Pakistan conditional, and I would make our conditions clear: Pakistan must make substantial progress in closing down the training camps, evicting foreign fighters and preventing the Taliban from using Pakistan as a staging area for attacks in Afghanistan."

Additionally Obama will call for at least two additional brigades to redeploy to Afghanistan to re-enforce U.S. counterterrorism operations and support NATO's efforts against the Taliban. This would be accompanied by political and economic efforts, Obama will say, pledging to increase nonmilitary U.S. aid to Afghanistan by a whopping $1 billion.

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    He probably just had lunch..... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 10:06:08 AM EST
    with a "defense" lobbyist....and got a check for dessert.

    UGh (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 10:21:45 AM EST
    Sounds like a caveman.

    Or More Apt (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:14:01 PM EST
    He is getting in touch with his inner caveman. Still revolting and wrong headed. Not to mention obvious.

    Parent
    Tough talking - from both sides of his mouth (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 10:24:32 AM EST
    This whole dynamic of riding the anti-war vote to power, then voting to fund an ongoing war while claiming to be ending it, reflect the conflicting necessities the Democrats face. As representatives of U.S. imperialism, they are committed to maintaining U.S. global dominance. Yet they fear the U.S. is sliding toward a strategic debacle of epic proportions and may already have lost the war in Iraq.  So they're trying to find a way to extricate most U.S. forces and reposition and strengthen the U.S. in the region.

    And they're trying to carry out this "redeployment" while making clear to the world and the powers-that-be in the U.S. that they can be just as tough and ruthless as Bush.  At the first Democratic Party candidates debate, both Hillary Clinton and John Edwards forcefully responded to a question about terrorist attacks with declarations that they'd act "swiftly" and "strongly."

    by Larry Everest, ZNet, May 10, 2007


    My quick reaction is "duh" (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:25:13 PM EST
    I would hope that such an incursion would be a last option, but I would want it to be an option.

    Open Your Eyes Folks (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Aaron on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 02:50:52 PM EST
    Obama is proposing to do what any responsible president would do.  George Bush chose not to eliminate these top leaders in Al Qaeda for the same reason he did not eliminated Osama bin Laden, this terrorist organization is for all intents and purposes the practical ally of the conservative Republican agenda.  If they are eliminated, then what do the people of the United States have to fear?  What reason do they have for voting Republican in the next election?  None.

    Ask yourself, if there is a large-scale terrorist attack within US borders in the next 12 months that kills large numbers of Americans, who will the frightened American populace vote for in the 2008 presidential election.  You know the answer I don't have to say. I don't see any other way that a Republican can win the White House next year.

    I'm not saying that this is a conspiracy or that Al Qaeda and conservative Republicans are complicit allies, I'm saying that Al Qaeda and the Bush Republicans are dependent upon one another for their mutual survival and continued expansion.  Removed one, and you crippled the other.

    Barack Obama is just stating the tactical realities involved in fighting a terrorist organization that recognizes no borders, if you can remove enough of the leadership that does the planning and organizing, you greatly reduce the possibility that a major terrorist attack will succeed.  General Musharraf, (the man is a dictator and referring to him as a president is something that only ABC and the other enemies of democracy would dare do) is backhandedly protecting Al Qaeda because that organizations continued existence helps consolidate his hold on power.  Musharraf's motivations are very similar to those of the Bush administration and the Republican agenda.  They need a resurgent Al Qaeda, otherwise their political foundation begins to erode like sand in the surf.  Musharraf and the Bush administration are playing games with the American people and the people of Pakistan, they must drag on this conflict indefinitely because it is to their continuing political advantage.  Obama's suggested course would help put an end to this game, he at least has the guts to propose doing what is tactically necessary, something the other Democrats don't have the balls for.

    It's unfortunate that so few people, on this site and on the left, are unable to recognize true leadership when it's right before your eyes, leadership that is at least less tainted by partisan politics than all the other genuine contenders for the presidency of this country.

     Grow up and open your eyes or you're going to find yourself living under Republican rule once again, or you'll end up settling for a Democrat that does nothing but placate voters in order to get elected, and will then get you to drink the same anti-democracy Kool-Aid the Republicans have been feeding you, and you'll swallow it and ask for seconds simply because it has a Democratic label.

    Time to wake up folks, if you want to regain control of your country.

    I can't endorse your comment (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:03:54 PM EST
    because of this:
    George Bush chose not to eliminate these top leaders in Al Qaeda for the same reason he did not eliminated Osama bin Laden, this terrorist organization is for all intents and purposes the practical ally of the conservative Republican agenda
    I mean, please, that's a conspiracy theory to top them all.

    Parent
    Not a conspiracy theory. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Geekesque on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:07:34 PM EST
    Al-Qaeda and the Neocons have a symbiotic relationship much as opposing extremists often do, e.g. Likud and Hamas.

    Parent
    He's essentially accusing (none / 0) (#23)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:09:38 PM EST
    George Bush of intentionally letting the terrorists go for political reasons.

    Parent
    Or that Bush lacked the political incentive (none / 0) (#25)
    by Geekesque on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:40:19 PM EST
    to make sure that Osama was captured.

    If Bush's reelection had depended on capturing bin Laden, do you think he would have diverted all of those resources to Iraq?

    Parent

    I'm amazed that you're defending this (none / 0) (#27)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:08:15 PM EST
    It's just stupid thinking.

    Parent
    Thinking (none / 0) (#29)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:14:04 PM EST
    is never stupid.

    Not thinking is.
    Parroting is.
    repeating is.
    conforming is.

    Thinking is smart. Try it.

    Parent

    Peaches (1.00 / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:02:15 PM EST
    Conforming is only stupid when the act conformed to is stupid.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:40:17 PM EST
    Being contrary for the sake of contrariness is equally idiotic.

    Parent
    Gabriel (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 08:56:57 AM EST
    being contrary for the sake of contrariness does not require one to think. Thinking requires that we consider possibilities, even absurd or contrary possibilities. Dismissing something out of hand without thinking about it because it is contrary is conforming and is stupid.

    That is why I am open to the possibility that we are not causing global warming and also open to the possibility that we do cause global warming. Holding to contrary thoughts in one mind and considering each possibility carefully and never coming to a absolute conclusion is a very reasonable and rational position to hold, while constantly weighing the evidence from all sides. This, of course holds true for many issues, including whether or not Bush benefits from having Bin Laden alive.

    Parent

    Jim (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 08:50:33 AM EST
    Conforming is always stupid when the act of thinking does not accompany it.

    Parent
    True or False?: (none / 0) (#30)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:22:02 PM EST
    George Bush intentionally didn't go after Bin Laden for political purposes.

    Parent
    No conspiracy, events just unfold (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Aaron on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 09:33:22 PM EST
    As to why the Bush administration would avoid killing or capturing Osama bin Laden, I think it's highly unlikely that George was even included in the loop when bin Laden was initially cornered in the mountains of Afghanistan.  I think it's much more likely that a number of people in the Pentagon and in the White House, I won't speculate on who, but I imagine these folks sitting across a table from each other after they had received word from commanders in the field, and they all just look at each other, no one needed to say anything.  All they had to do was wait and take no immediate action, then come up with some plausible excuses, like they didn't want to endanger the lives of US troops, or they wanted to allow our allies in Afghanistan the prestige of capturing bin Laden.  How ridiculously absurd, allowing the most hated terrorist in US history to quietly slip away, and then citing such excuses with straight faces.

    I have little doubt that the commanders on the ground wanted to send in an entire regiment using a direct frontal assault, backed up by every ounce of air power we could muster in the region, and what military or political leader could fault them for doing so.  But instead are forces in the field were told to virtually stand down.  I imagine that the people in intelligence who located bin Laden went berserk, much the same way our intelligence folks lost it when they were told to cancel the mission into Pakistan in 2005.  I imagine that these people are some of the most depressed and demoralized individuals in our government today.  I imagine they feel very used and abused.  After all they're the ones who were supposedly responsible for the so-called "bad information" about yellowcake uranium.  One would begin to think that we have the most inept intelligence community on the face of the globe, if you can bring yourself io continue believing the proven liars of this administration.

    Why would the Bush administration intentionally avoid apprehending Osama bin Laden in 2002.  I can answer that with one word, Iraqi.    The plans for this war had already been laid and the process of bringing the American people on board was well underway.  The apprehension or killing of bin Laden would have provided a powerful psychological disincentive in the minds of the American people who would have concluded that we had accomplished a major milestone in this war on terror.  It would've made selling an Iraqi invasion 10 times harder, perhaps even impossible given the likely political opposition from the Democrats.  I think it's extremely naïve to believe that those working to further the agenda that George W. Bush represents, did not rightly conclude that bin Laden was far more useful to them and their designs on the Middle East, if he remained alive and on the loose.  

    And here we are six years later, and bin Laden is no longer even a priority, the administration claiming that he isn't in operational control of Al Qaeda.  They don't even need to continue the pretense of trying to find him, the war on terror has evolved beyond the need for a bin Laden.  I seriously doubt that bin Laden was ever in operational control of any Al Qaeda operation, regardless of what we've been told.  He is an ideas man, not a doer.  

    Osama bin Laden then and now represents the head of Al Qaeda and the larger Islamic fundamentalist movement, a figurehead much like George W. Bush.  Bush is certainly no man of action, remember how he sat there seemingly unable to react when he received the news that our country was under attack.  But figurehead's are always extremely important when it comes to enlisting the support of the masses. He and bin Laden have done their jobs, events will proceed as planned without either of them.  

    Nor was any conspiracy ever needed, George W. Bush simply put the right people in the right places in government, and from there things just unfolded according to design. There were a few bumps in the road, but overall the plan went beautifully, leaving our military entrenched in the Middle East, with no one in the Congress seriously entertaining a pullout anytime soon.  Remember how some thought that changing the face of Congress would lead to a pullout from Iraq, it hasn't quite worked out that way now has it.  In all likelihood we'll have a Democratic president in 2009, but regardless of who is in the White House, I'd be willing to bet that we'll still be in Iraq and Afghanistan come 2010, 2012, 2015 etc.

    Parent

    Re: people in intelligence who located bin Laden (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 12:02:26 AM EST
    Media Matters, Aug 24, 2006:
    Amanpour reported that the mission to capture bin Laden in the mountainous region of Afghanistan - led by a CIA paramilitary unit and supported by Afghan militias and Pakistani soldiers -- ultimately failed because, "[b]y most accounts," there were "not enough American soldiers on the ground." The documentary included a clip of Gary Berntsen, the now-retired CIA officer who headed the unit, explaining how he had sent "a message back to Washington" in early December 2001 requesting more U.S. troops, but never received them. But the special failed to note that the CIA warned Bush directly that more U.S. troops were needed in Tora Bora.

    BERNTSEN: In the first two or three days of December, I would write a message back to Washington, recommending the insertion of U.S. forces on the ground. I was looking for 600 to 800 Rangers, roughly a battalion. They never came.

    AMANPOUR: Also hunting bin Laden in Tora Bora, then Afghan militia leader, General Mohamed Zahir. Do you have any idea how many American soldiers were at the battle of Tora Bora?

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was not more than 50, 60, I think. Yeah, there was not more in that time.



    Parent
    Thanks Edgee (none / 0) (#43)
    by Aaron on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 02:22:37 AM EST
    Glad someone reads my comments. :)

    Parent
    Have you seen (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 04:52:36 AM EST
    this film, Aaron? It's 1 hr 24 minutes long, but starting at about 51 minutes in is the story of how al-Qaeda and bin ladin were able to get out of Tora Bora.

    It pretty much parallels yours and Gary Bertsen's descriptions.

    Parent

    51 min 32 sec (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 05:06:30 AM EST
    andgarden (1.00 / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:59:08 PM EST
    And what was Bush's motive?

    Parent
    Let me think about it. (none / 0) (#32)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:29:58 PM EST
    I'll get back to ya.

    Parent
    Like (none / 0) (#24)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:11:46 PM EST
    This
    Australian Prime Minister John Howard on Monday stood by his comments from a day earlier when he said that terrorists should pray that Sen. Barack Obama and the Democrats take over the White House in 2008.


    Parent
    You find that unusual?? (1.00 / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:59:54 PM EST
    I can't believe I'm about to say that (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 02:47:55 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton seems to better understand that her Army is fairly well broken right now, but she does seem to have a good grasp of this.  And Obama sadly once again displays what seems to be a lack of maturity.  I think it would be a huge mistake to redeploy to Afghanistan because so much of the equipment is in poor condition or broken and many of the soldiers are in poor condition or broken.  It isn't that we couldn't deploy troops to the area if we pulled out of Iraq, but many someones need to sift through what is left and actually put together units to redeploy.  I wouldn't send a soldier into Afghanistan who had been deployed to Iraq for more than two tours and I wouldn't send anyone displaying PTSD symptoms because those soldiers just can't process stress properly anymore and needs either recovery time or reassignment or disabled.  Sending troops into a new combat situation who are so fatigued they can't think clearly and who have equipment so fatigued it doesn't function properly just seems to me to be ANOTHER AMERICAN MILITARY COMBAT MISTAKE.....and has he even tried diplomacy much yet in this get tough plan?  This all seems very fuddled and muddled coming from Obama and more of his Not Ready For Primetime Difficulties that many people see in him.

    Read the speech (1.00 / 1) (#4)
    by mdub12 on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 10:57:22 AM EST
    Progressives are FOR getting the terrorists who did this to us on 9/11. Everyone should be for that.

    Bush hasn't done that. He got us into the wrong war. Obama is the first candidate to present a comprehensive view of how we address this problem. It's a gold standard, not a departure. I think all of the other dem candidates will be measured by this.

    Speech here:
    http://www.barackobama.com/2007/08/01/the_war_we_need_to_win.php

    Then we should be invading Saudi Arabia (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Dadler on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:05:20 AM EST
    And not pumping billions in arms their way.  

    Pakistan is a nuclear nation, a country in which chaos would make Iraq's look quaint.

    Obama is off his rocker.  And evidences a pathetic lack of imagination.

    Parent

    Invade Germany too ... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Ellie on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:08:25 PM EST
    ... a good chunk of the 9/11 villainy was organized and hatched there.

    But since the standard set by the Chickenhawk in Chief is to shake an ineffectual plastic saber at or co-swagger comically with foreign heads of state the First Gut deems BFF or Foe of the Week ...

    Obama could just roll up any copies of the Bush doctrine that haven't been burned in disgust and use them to smack Bundespräz Kohler or Chancellor Merkel in the nose and give them a piece of his mind.

    Or maybe use it to smack Knut the Kute* in the nose as a symbolic gesture.

    (I'm not all that much of a poligeek: but, as implied upthread, this must be the month where every candidate says every stupid thing necessary to later claim they were(n't) whatever the Beltway Bobbleheads or hit squads will later claim they were(n't) when people are actually paying attention.)

    *compliments of a young houseguest who plays it incessantly.

    Parent

    Iraq Emergency Supplemental Spring 2007 (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:28:55 AM EST
    After years of Emergency Supplementals to fund the occupation of Iraq passed by the Republicans, the last one was passed by the Democratic controlled Congress in March this year.

    The more things change the more they remain the same.

    Measure Number: H.R. 1591

    Question:  On Passage of the Bill (H.R. 1591, As Amended )
    Vote Number:     126    Vote Date:     March 29, 2007, 10:36 AM
    Required For Majority:     1/2    Vote Result:     Bill Passed
    Measure Title: A bill making emergency supplemental appropriations for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2007, and for other purposes.

    Clinton (D-NY), Yea  
    Obama (D-IL), Yea

    The GOP is finished. There will be a Democrat sitting in the Oval Office in 2009.

    Who will it be? George W. Obama? Or Hillary R. Bush?

    Parent

    CORRECTION - Apparently the votes I quoted (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:38:14 PM EST
    above from Clinton and Obama are somewhat misleading, and although they did both vote yes on H.R. 1591, according to andgarden their intentions are a bit obscured by the whole "agree to the Senate amendment" blah, blah stuff, but the roll call is here" for H.R. 2206  (U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations Act, 2007), which they both voted against.
     

    Parent
    Not for nothing..... (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:59:55 PM EST
    the guys who actually "did it to us" died along with all those innocent victims.

    Parent
    He didn't say he'd send troops into Pakistan. (none / 0) (#8)
    by Geekesque on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:32:09 AM EST
    I know you're not a fan of his, but regurgitating false spin from the media isn't a good practice.

    Send them a friendly request? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:37:58 AM EST
    Wrapped around a few thousand bombs?
    If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will.

    After all, bombing targets in Afghanistan and Iraq has worked out so well....

    They came here as predators and now they are prey. The only thing an American understands is force, we sand nig*ers know a thing or two about that.
    Saba Ali Ihsaan, Baghdad, Irak

    Parent
    Bombing Pakistan would work well. :-/ (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 11:42:32 AM EST
    The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

    I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.
    ...
    And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.



    Parent
    Thoughtless (none / 0) (#13)
    by jarober on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:31:45 PM EST
    I'd worry about this more if I didn't consider it a simple chest puffing exercise by Obama.  However, if he's serious, sending troops into Pakistan would create a wider war in a hurry.  It would result in the current government's turn against the radicals in Waziristan into neutrality at best - at worst, it could result in the fall of that government.

    Now, last time I looked, Pakistan has nukes.  Oh boy, do I love the idea of a nuclear armed radical state that has a history of terror in Kashmir (and India in general).

    Why is Obama considered smart again?

    This post is inaccurate--he's not considering (none / 0) (#14)
    by Geekesque on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 12:51:49 PM EST
    sending troops into Pakistan.

    The media is distorting things.

    I know, hard to believe, right?

    Parent

    If I were President (none / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    Is the context.

    So if he is not saying that he would consider sending troops into Pakistan, what is he saying?

    Parent

    That if they have bin Laden in their crosshairs, (none / 0) (#19)
    by Geekesque on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 01:40:20 PM EST
    he's a dead man.

    Parent
    Then what about his replacement?.... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 03:49:28 PM EST
    and if the replacement is killed, his replacement. And so on and so on.  Osama's death accomplishes nothing without a change in foreign policy.  

    As long as we insist on f*cking with the world to maintain our economic/military dominance, we will have enemies out for payback.  Obama is whistling the same tune we've heard for over 50 years, just in a slightly different key.

    Parent

    one entity by definition is the most powerful.

    Regardless of whether or not that power is used in what is perceived by the less powerful entities in a relatively fair way - ie., whether or not the more powerful entity is perceived by the less powerful to be F*ing with the less powerful - those entities with less power will always want more power.

    And, yes, that power is a zero sum game. If a less powerful entity gets more power, it gets that power by taking it from the other entities, thereby reducing the other entities' power.

    Whatever your opinion may be of the relative fairness of the US's use of its power, the only factual solution to the problem of other entities becoming our enemies due to our greater power is for us to give up that power.

    So, what entity would you rather have be the one with the most power?

    (Bearing in mind that that entity will become the one perceived as F*ing with the less powerful entities, and we'll be one of those less powerful entities.)

    Parent

    Short oversimplified answer.... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 06:50:26 PM EST
    I'd give up some power for more peace, you bet. Foster a more equitable balance of power in the world, if you will.

    Not so much where we couldn't defend an attack on our borders...but enough to where we couldn't (or simply wouldn't) occupy other countries, stage coups, ally with opressors, etc.  If we gave up, or simply witheld, the power to do such things...call me naive...I think the world would be better for it.  With our large oceans beside us and our scaled-back power, I don't see us getting f*cked with.

    I don't see what I and most fellow Americans have got to lose, and we'd have the comfort of knowing we didn't help pay for bombs, coups, and assorted shadyness.  If we pay more for gas and sneakers, we pay more for gas and sneakers...it's worth some sacrifice.

     

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:03:34 PM EST
    and think of the money we would save not propping up dictators with arms that will eventually be used against us, and the money we would save not having to fight them or the folks who replaced them.

    See Taliban, Iran, Iraq, etc, etc, etc.


    Parent

    I'd rather pay more for gas and sneakers (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:02:40 PM EST
    than all the stupid stuff we purchase from the industrial complex that do no one any good......not even our troops.  I'd rather pay more for gas and sneakers than bigger bombs when the current ones do the job of keeping us as safe as we're going to be.  I have always thought that power and control are in part illusions and sometimes our illusions lead to delusions and then 11 hijackers armed with box cutters prove it to us.  Or a couple of insurgents armed with $300 worth of mortar shells builds an IED that proves that to our 5 million dollar Abrams tank, and I don't know what an RPG goes for on the black market but one lucky shot with one will bring down a 24 million dollar Apache Longbow.  After awhile it all starts seeming sort of silly.

    Parent
    I hear that.... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:29:29 PM EST
    all that power and might seems pretty useless at times...when up against people with their backs against the wall and nothing left to lose.

    Parent
    "Gas and sneaker" policies (none / 0) (#68)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:30:23 PM EST
    Militarytracy, it's fine for you to say you're willing to pay more. But that willingness must be tempered with the understanding that national policies which raise the price of gas and sneakers disproportionately impact the poor and the middle class.

    Parent
    ROFL, yes....I do drive (none / 0) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 07:55:48 PM EST
    a $35,000 Mitsubishi and wear a $5.00 flipflop.

    Parent
    What make you ASSUME that my (none / 0) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 08:00:25 PM EST
    willingness isn't tempered and what causes you to ASSUME that you can so easily predict economic developments in the land of capitalism?  How come everytime a winger hears something that doesn't fit into their spoonfed talking points and COULD (used cautiously) have some sort of economic impact suddenly we have the economy of the old USSR?

    Parent
    Fair enough (none / 0) (#40)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 07:13:34 PM EST
    as with many discussions on TL it comes down to a matter of degrees.

    Most likely, no matter how little power you have, those with less will think you're F*ing with them at some point. And those with more will F with you.

    What is the correct balance in the trade off between power and the natural enmity from those with less power?

    I don't know the answer, I just know that if given the choice between the US having more power and someone else having more power, I choose the US.

    I trust us more than them, whoever them might be.

    That is not to say, of course, that our use of our power should not be questioned by us...

    Parent

    Fair enough... (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 06:19:54 AM EST
    We can have more power than the next guy and not use it in evil ways....I guess that's my point.

    Who knows, maybe my view doesn't jive with real human nature, only ideal human nature. Maybe you're right and those with power are powerless not to use it to f*ck with people. Having never had or desired power over others, I don't know how I'd use it if I had it, I only hope I'd use it righteously.

    Parent

    Well, to be clear, (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 12:26:37 PM EST
    those with more power can't help but F those with less power, in the perspective of those with less.

    For example, you work, you have a job. I assume there were others who interviewed for that same job? You didn't purposely F those others over by getting the job they wanted - needed, even, perhaps -  but to those that didn't get the job, in their perspective, you did.

    OK, maybe not a perfect example, but you get what I mean...

    Parent

    I got ya..... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 12:43:11 PM EST
    My only retort there, to your example, is that perception doesn't match reality.  I didn't f*ck those fellow applicants, I was merely better qualified, or just luckier.  I didn't sabatoge their resume or tell lies to the interviewer about them...catch my drift?

    The arab world perception that we've been f*cking with them is backed by hard evidence.  One example of the top of my dome...the CIA backed overthrow of Mossadeq in Iran back in the 50's.  

    It's more than just a perception held by the powerless arabs...there is hard evidence to prove just how much we've f*cked with that part of the world.

    Parent

    No argument (none / 0) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 01:09:40 PM EST
    again, in many situations, it's a matter of perspective.

    One person's F*ing is another persons helping.

    Those who were overthrown naturally have the perspective that they were F*d with, those who overthrew have the perspective that they were helping.

    Those that overthrew did so because they believed it needed to be done because they believed what they wanted was better than what those they overthrew wanted, likewise, those that got overthrown believed what they wanted was better than what the over throwers wanted.

    We are going to F with every other nation we have relationships with and every other nation is going F with us for time immemorial as dictated by each party's perspective.

    Likewise, every other nation will F with and be F*d by every other nation they have relationships with for time immemorial as dictated by each party's perspective.

    As a matter of degree you believe we should be less involved in the world stage, that that would result in less F*ing all around. That's certainly a valid opinion.

    My point is that I don't think the perceptions that someone is F*ing with someone else or being F*d will ever end for any nation no matter what.

    Of course, that is not to say we shouldn't try.


    Parent

    I hear ya.... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 01:40:02 PM EST
    perceptions are like opinions and a**holes...everybody has one.  

    I could percieve you are f*cking with me right now, but there would be no hard evidence, and an outside observer would say I'm nuts for saying you are f*cking with me.  An outside observer could not say, with a straight face, that the US hasn't been f*cking with arabs for 50+ years...to much evidence to the contrary.

    Parent

    and presumably will continue do so after those 50 years.

    And the Brits F*d with France, and the French F*d with the Germans, and the Germans F*d with...and the Chinese F*d with...and the Chileans F*d with...and the Armenians F*d with...and the Christians F*d with...and the Muslims F*d with...and the Anglos F*D with...and the Asians F*d with...and cheerleaders F*d with...and the stoners F*d with...and the jocks F*d with...and the whoevers F*d with...etc., etc., etc.

    Everyone F's with everyone else to get done what they think is best. Often, too often, on the international stage, that Fing leads to conflict and violence.

    For the most part I think humans try to avoid such violence, sadly I don't think we don't try enough and/or are too often unsuccessful when we do try.

    Parent

    You are right SOU (none / 0) (#60)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 02:16:42 PM EST
    At the risk of sounding corny, all I can say is, quoting Mr. Lennon

    Imagine

    But, you may say I'm a dreamer...

    Parent

    Can't we all just get along? (none / 0) (#61)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 02:28:19 PM EST
    I still remember a quote on this board by someone, I can't remember who.

    He said:

    "Reasonable men can come to opposing conclusions, if the stakes are high enough conflict can result."

    or something like that...

    Parent

    Nobody tries hard enough.... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:21:21 PM EST
    you right buddy, you right.  

    My main concern is who my country f*cks with, and who f*cks with my country.  If Chile and Argentina are f*cking with each other, that is their concern.

    I'd like some evidence though to back up the perception that the stoners f*cked with anybody:)

    Parent

    Of course, they may have had the perception some others were Fing with them, so their actions were OK in their view. ;-)

    Parent
    Now you're..... (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:32:10 PM EST
    f*cking with me:)

    Parent
    Only if you think I am. ;-) (none / 0) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:34:44 PM EST
    What? (none / 0) (#31)
    by koshembos on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 04:29:13 PM EST
    Is Iran next on Obama's list?

    He is the biggest disappointment of the campaign. While HRC gets better, he is getting worse. I was not impressed with the simpleton: we talk with enemies to make peace; it's as old as Greece and Rome (I just am ignorant about Asian history, they may have said it before Europe).

    up until recently, (none / 0) (#36)
    by cpinva on Wed Aug 01, 2007 at 05:45:18 PM EST
    i thought the idea of starting the 2008 campaign basically a year early was ridiculous. i'm changing my mind. what i realized is that it results in the filtering process taking place now, instead of just before the conventions.

    by spring of 2008, when the real primaries occur, most of the wannabe's will be gone. what'll be left are those who have a legitimate shot at the oval office. sen. obama, guliani and thompson will not be among them, having imploded long before that.

    i submit the democratic candidates left standing, by primary season, will be clinton & edwards. for the republicans, i've not a clue, none so far have exhibited any substance.

    this is yet another example of why sen. obama should step back, get some seasoning, and consider running in 2016. apparently, someone on his staff neglected to inform him that invading a sovereign country is considered an act of war. you'd think a lawyer would know that.

    You think Musharraf would declare war? (none / 0) (#44)
    by jr on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:28:17 AM EST
    He'd puff his chest and act angry, then as soon as the microphones were gone he'd mutter a prayer of thanks for the fact that we did what he couldn't and took the rallying point for radical fundamentalists down.  I'm sure his outrage might even come across as genuine.  I'd be surprised if he even considers ordering Pakistani civil defense forces to fire on US troops.

    We're talking about an incursion to capture or kill a war criminal and international terrorist who, among other things, has supported repeated assassination attempts against Musharraf.  We're talking about overthrowing the government and collapsing the state into chaos, but removing a very real and increasingly powerful threat to that government in such a way that the government can either take all the credit or shunt aside all the blame.  

    Besides, the single greatest insult that could be heaped onto the injury of 9/11 would be to let the man who engineered the whole thing die free.  You kill 3,000 Americans, you either die in jail or resisting capture.  Anything less is a massive injustice that I find unacceptable, and any candidate who aims for anything less is not getting my vote.

    Parent

    unfortunately, Obama's also managed to get (none / 0) (#50)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 07:54:30 AM EST
    a nickname and an image out of this.  Sadly, the online edition of the Murdoch New York Post, which has a couple articles on the topic actually written in complete sentences, does not include it's headline from the print edition:  "Berserk Obama", nor the cartoonish photoshopping of OBama's face into a blowup of the 1988 Dukakis-in-a-tanker's-helmet photo.

    Shows what Hillary's investment in ally-making with Murdoch can do, if nothing else.

    Frankly, the distinction between Hilly and Obama on the one hand, and any potential Republican condidate on the other is the difference between Nice Polite Establishment Republicans and Crazy-*ass Wingnut Republicans.  In other words, they're all Republicans, carrying out the policies of Empire.

    kdog and SUO (none / 0) (#57)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 01:51:02 PM EST
    kdog and SUO, I'm enjoying your exchange. I would like to see what you guys would say about some problems that arise from withdrawing from exercising international power.

    First, kdog, you note that you think it is possible to scale back our (military?) power to the point where it would not be possible to "occupy other countries, stage coups, ally with oppressors," but still maintain national defense.

    I understand you haven't done more than sketch this out as a possibility, but could you describe how such a scaled back system would have responded to the September 11th attacks, specifically regarding the Taliban. Presumably, we wouldn't have been able to invade Afghanistan and oust the Taliban had we been in the situation you envision. What would or should we have done?

    And SUO, along those same lines, obviously we possessed relatively greater military power than the Taliban and indisputably we used that power to "F* with them." Are there circumstances where it is justified to F* with other countries? Is that what you meant when you said "That is not to say, of course, that our use of our power should not be questioned by us..."?

    Second, setting aside the question of military might, what about economic supremacy? Certainly, the exercise of military might overseas has made enemies. But so, too, has the daily exercise of U.S. economic activity. That activity was cited as a reason for opposing the U.S. in OBLs 1996 Fatwa. kdog, do you think it possible that even if we were to scale back our military power our economic power would continue to inspire people to violence against the United States? If so, what do we do about it? If not, why not? SUO, what do you think?

    Third, let's say that starting with the new administration in 2008 we dramatically and publicly scale back our power as you suggested. kdog, how long do you think it will be before we see any benefit from withdrawing? After all, you just now cited CIA activity from the 1950s, something which no one in the current government can be held responsible for and only few living Americans can be said to be involved. And yet, you continue to hold it against the United States as a whole. So how long before we can say to other countries, "Don't be mad about all that history, that wasn't us."

    Off the top of the dome again.... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:01:59 PM EST
    and please realize I'm just a knucklehead who is entertained by thinking about the state of my country and the world.  Thinking out loud on an internet page.

    I would have responded to 9/11 more as a criminal act than an act of war, at least at first.  Investigate to find those directly responsible and attempt to apprehend them through cooperation with foreign governments.  If the govt. of Afghanistan, aka the taliban, refused to cooperate and help bring the killers to justice...at that point I'd say we'd have no choice but to fire up the aircraft carriers stationed on the west coast and head over there to apprehend them ourselves....all cooperative and diplomatic attempts at apprehension having failed.  Once we caught Mr. X, Y, and Z we were looking for we'd bring the aircraft carriers back to our coast.  All with as little hardship (or "f*cking with") inflicted on the local population as possible.

    As for economic dominance, I definitely think that could lead to violent reactions in extreme cases.  What I'd do there is hold foreign nations/corporations, or US corporations doing business overseas, to comparable workplace/marketplace standards that we have here at home.  Level the playing field a bit more.  In a nutshell, we come up with a bare bones international standard on human/worker rights in the marketplace, and if a nation/corporation doesn't meet them they can't do business here.

    If all my pipe dreams were implemented in '08, I'd say it would probably take a generation to see the fruit...too much bad blood out there right now to wash away all the dirty deeds of 50+ years.  Maybe a little less once people saw we were singing a new tune, our troops leaving their countries, our corporations treating them more equitably.

    I don't hold the CIA coup in Iran against my countrymen, I hold it against the US govt....the politicians and bueracrats may be different, but they are playing the same games.  There are more recent examples I could provide, but I'm sure you're aware of them.

    Parent

    Or.... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:07:44 PM EST
    If you just wanna disband the federal government and roll with an experiment in anarchy...I'm game for that too:)

    Parent
    Big questions Gabe (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 02:14:29 PM EST
    you correctly realized that I'm speaking about more than just military power. Economic and cultural power is at least, if not more, important. In fact, you cannot separate the three, imo, they are inextricably entwined for us as they are for any nation state.

    Someone, by definition, has to be the most powerful.

    If not us, then who?

    For better or worse, I vote for us.

    I've been reading kdog's position as that we don't have to be an 800 lb gorilla, that we could be, say, a 600 lb gorilla.

    If that is his position, I'm certainly open to exploring the possibility - with the understanding that if we are a 800 lb gorilla it is only by our good sense, common decency and, what the hell, democracy, that we're not an 1800 lb gorilla...

    Parent

    Over there. (none / 0) (#72)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 03:35:02 PM EST
    Another obvious objection just occurred to me (I'm embarrassed to say I didn't think of it earlier). What happens if we come across a situation where we want to project military power overseas? If we've disarmed ourselves and withdrawn to our borders, I fear that we will just shrug our shoulders and say "bad things happen...over there."

    Parent
    Good point Gabe (none / 0) (#73)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 05:19:01 PM EST
    gotta say, I'm kinda wiped out on this topic.

    Parent
    Wiped.... (none / 0) (#76)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 05:51:37 PM EST
    yeah, my head started to hurt there for a minute....I'm glad to have you around here sarc...nobody forces me to think deeper into my random crazy thoughts like you bro.  I feel I benefit from it.

    Have a good night friends, time to fire up the bbq and not think for a bit.

    Parent

    That sounds goood. (none / 0) (#77)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 05:58:27 PM EST
    Mmmm, barbeque, gaaaaahrg...

    Parent
    Right back atcha. Enjoy. (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 06:10:04 PM EST
    between you, ppj and Peaches, above, is a TL classic.

    Parent