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Why Inherent Contempt III

Posts 1 and 2 here.

Eugene Volokh provides more justification for the use of inherent contempt by the Congress to enforce its subpoenas:

[F]irmly insisting on denying Congress any power to initiate prosecutions of people who resist its commands — commands that Congress wants to argue are lawful — would indeed make it much harder for Congress to make its commands stick. . . . Congress can itself prosecute the contumacious official(s) to coerce them to comply — a power that the Supreme Court has affirmed. . . . As Justice Scalia explained in Young v. U.S. ex rel. Vuitton et Fils, S.A., 481 U.S. at 820, this legislative prosecution authority is a constitutional anomaly of sorts — a "limited power of self-defense" for Congress, permissible because "any other course 'leads to the total annihilation of the power of the House of Representatives to guard itself from contempts . . ."

. . . [H]ere Congress would not only order a prosecution, but could actually try and punish the person, though subject to certain limits. This is a deeper departure from the separation of powers than simply ordering the Justice Department to prosecute — in front of a normal judge and jury — would be.

Nonetheless, it is a departure that is sanctioned by longstanding legal doctrines, and (relatedly) by our constitutional history. . . . [I]t seems like the legally authorized approach — the use of a traditional and narrow departure from standard constitutional norms, and not a new departure.

It seems difficult to see how unitary executive proponents can argue with the power of Congress to commence inherent contempt proceedings while at the same time denying the rights of the courts to review claims of executive privilege. Indeed, Volokh obviously can not. Yet another reason to favor inherent contempt proceedings in the face of the Bush Administration's outlandish assertions.

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    I'd hate for the House to let slide the blatant (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 07:20:36 PM EST
    refusal to appear in response to the sub. to Meiers or Ms. Taylor's claim of exec. priv.  But, I would prefer the House threw the gauntlet on something other than the removal of the US Attorneys--such as the lies forming the basis of the U.S. invasion of Iraw.  

    Inherent contempt creates a constitutional crisis? (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Aaron on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:16:42 PM EST
    So let us suppose that the Congress pursues the inherent contempt course, and a number of current and former White House members are seized by some law enforcement arm, I don't know exactly who at this point, who are the cops for Congress anyway.  But supposing you get to this point, what do you guys think George W. Bush will do when confronted with the possibility of his accomplices being incarcerated and perhaps pressured into revealing what they know? Hell with the precedents set by this White House, the Congress my be able to get away with water-boarding them.  At least we know that nasogastric feeding tubes won't be necessary because I can't imagine Karl Rove going on a hunger strike.  Now wouldn't that be the most watched C-SPAN broadcast of all time, Harriet Miers and Karl being dunked in wash basins right there on the House floor.  :-)

    Court-appointed Congressional torturer: Tell us who the traitor is piggy!  

    Karl, dripping on the carpet:  I'll talk I'll talk! Just don't dunk me again please!

    But let's just say that we got as far as the actual physical seizure of White House officials, does anyone here seriously think for one moment that George would stand for it?  He couldn't afford to, just like he couldn't afford to let Libby go to prison.  He cannot allow the the totality of his crimes to be revealed, and while he's in office, I imagine he will do everything in his constitutional power and beyond to prevent such an eventuality, and we all know that he has no problem overreaching executive authority.

     Something like this could push him over the edge, literally.  I don't even want to think about what could happen if someone in this administration, current or former started spilling their guts, and telling everything they know.  I never thought I'd find myself writing this, but perhaps it's better not to have this happen, at least while George is in office.  The man simply has too much power and the possibility of a dire constitutional crisis, one in which the military is used to quell civilian unrest, could become a genuine possibility.

    I think the most frightening thought is that those on the Right, those like our friend jimakaPPJ here, as well as many in critical positions of government and the military, would likely side with the president, regardless of what incontrovertible evidence were to come to light.  If tapes perhaps, such as those Nixon kept, were to be found and the president with his own words confirmed that he had indeed broken the oath he took to the Constitution and the people the United States, even in that eventuality, I think that Jim and those like him would find themselves compelled to take up arms against anyone who would try to enforce the rule of law on this president, even if he were a confirmed traitor.  Though Jim and everyone else in the military took an oath to defend the Constitution and this country against all enemies foreign and domestic when they were sworn in, so obviously this would be a dilemma for them, but it seems that their ideological beliefs would in all probability prevail and cast this president, and he alone, as standing for constitutional authority. I think they would find some plausible rationalization for supporting the man who represents their ideological beliefs regardless of what he's done.

    You correct me if I've mischaracterized you Jim, but I've watched your comments for a long time and I find it hard to believe that there is any lengths to which you would not go in excusing the actions of this president and thereby keeping this country locked on its current ideological course.  Am I wrong?

    Crap, I'm kind of scared of Jim's answer.

    Aaron (1.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:27:32 PM EST
    Your problem is that you can not understand that you can support the national defense, and still be a liberal.

    Think JFK, Humphrey, Scoop Jackson, LBJ...

    The Left's problem is that it has been taken over by people who's agenda is driven by hatred for Bush, and what they see as a loss of power in the 2000 election. That has festered into a something that is a pathology. Some call call it BDS. I now just call it unreasoned hate.

    This hate now means that the US can not win because to do so would prove Bush wrong. Thus everything the US does is always wrong.

    Bush, of course, will be gone in a short while. And no matter who wins the troops won't be coming home. Hillary knows that, and she is going to be the candidate. The others know it too, they're just doing it to satisfy their oversized ego.

    So have a nice night and enjoy your fantasy.

    [ Parent ]

    Poor Jim, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings... (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by Aaron on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:51:18 PM EST
    ...but somehow I knew you wouldn't answer the question, as to exactly where your loyalties lie.

    But I'll pose the question in a multiple-choice format to make it easier.

    Where do your loyalties lie Jim?

    A. The United States of America.

    B. George W. Bush and his administration.  a.k.a. the treasonous dogs

    C. Vladimir Putin and the resurrected Soviet Union.

    I'd like to believe it's America, but somehow I think that we both know that deep down inside in that place you keep hidden, you're a Bush lover through and through, right Jim? It's OK, everyone can see it, you can come out of the closet.  Just be who you are Jim, you'll feel so much better about yourself.

    [ Parent ]

    Aaron, I think this point is where ppj (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:13:10 PM EST
    goes into complete avoidance and ignore mode.

    [ Parent ]
    He went to bed... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Aaron on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:33:00 PM EST
    ... but he'll be back again in the morning.

    Jim is nothing if not consistent.

    But sometimes I feel bad for him, and many of the Conservatives who have been so let down and used by the people they put their faith in.  It's not an easy thing to come to the realization that the people you support politically care nothing for you, and take you entirely for granted.

    Perhaps the Bush administration will be enough to rouse them from the hypnotic slumber they have suffered under for so many years.  One can only hope.

    [ Parent ]

    Yawn..... Aaron (1.00 / 1) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:51:23 PM EST
    Do you still beat your wife??

    I gave you  calm, reasoned response to your greatly over heated rhetoric.. I quote:

    Court-appointed Congressional torturer:  Tell us who the traitor is piggy!  

    Karl, dripping on the carpet:  I'll talk I'll talk! Just don't dunk me again please!

    And you actually thought you would receive a comment???

    Really. How drool.

    I was kind enough to point out my position that I am a social liberal who believes in national defense..

    As I have pointed out time and time again, my social positions put me at odds with Bush, but being rational, I have found that I don't have to agree with everything thing people do to take advantage of the things that they do that I am in agreement with. In fact, most people find that a rather mature, rational appoach to life.

    Since you have been around a while, and since I have pointed all of this out before, I assumed you had read it at least once and were capable of remembering it.

    BTW - All of these are in the archives.

    So you were either willfully disregarding facts that you had previously been told, or have the world's worst memory.

    Being gracious, I assumed the latter and went back over the basics. My reward was a bunch of BS from both you and edger.

    Not unexpedcted, mind you.

    So what you read is what you get. Enjoy.

    [ Parent ]

    An agenda driven by hatred of Bush (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 11:58:43 AM EST
    What an incisive, in-depth analysis.

    Of course to go any further into what engenders the "hatred" would involve examining and hashing out too many actual, specific, issues in the clear light and running the danger of being forced to defend the rabidly illiberal indefensible.

    Better to stick to the Left-is-full-of-hatred mantra.


    [ Parent ]

    Un-rouseable. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 04:40:13 AM EST
    He can't deal with it, Aaron. He can't even deal with your comment.

    [ Parent ]
    I told you to stay away from the White Lighting (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 11:42:40 AM EST
    This hate now means that the US can not win because to do so would prove Bush wrong.

    That is one theory. Not a very intelligent one. Another, more plausible theory is that the Iraq war was a bad idea, poorly conceived and poorly executed.

    The Conservatives  conceived it, they executed it, and they own it. Its your war and your defeat, the rest of us are along unwillingly for the ride. Congratualtions and have a nice day.


    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Hate (Love) to tell you this ;-) (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:02:41 PM EST
    The Demos voted for it and I can show you long quotations about how they wanted Saddam's head on a stick.

    So the fact that the beautiful baby grew up to be a ugly adult doesn't mean a thing in the real world.

    Both parties are joined at the hip.

    [ Parent ]

    No we are not. (none / 0) (#61)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 04:06:25 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Yes they are. (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 09:45:05 PM EST
    Mama, he's looking at me!

    [ Parent ]
    Its the conservatives war (none / 0) (#66)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 10:22:56 PM EST
    The Conservatives  conceived it, they executed it, and they own it. Its your war and your defeat. No liberal was involved in the conception or the execution. You didn't want us, remember?

    Congratualtions and have a nice day.


    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Try answering his question (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:34:07 PM EST
    and addressing his points directly, instead of your juvenile attempts at avoidance, ppj.

    Or are you unable to avoid the juvenile avoidance now?

    [ Parent ]

    Here's what Ms. Noonan, a Reagan speechwriter (none / 0) (#40)
    by Dark Avenger on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:34:35 PM EST
    had to say on BDS:

    I'm not referring to what used to be called Bush Derangement Syndrome. That phrase suggested that to passionately dislike the president was to be somewhat unhinged. No one thinks that anymore. I received an email before the news conference from as rock-ribbed a Republican as you can find, a Georgia woman (middle-aged, entrepreneurial) who'd previously supported him. She said she'd had it. "I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth." I was startled by her vehemence only because she is, as I said, rock-ribbed. Her email reminded me of another, one a friend received some months ago: "I took the W off my car today," it said on the subject line. It sounded like a country western song, like a great lament.

    Link


    [ Parent ]

    DA -You too have a short memory (1.00 / 1) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:58:19 PM EST
    As an Independent Social Liberal who is strong on national defense, which I have told you often enough that it must have penetrated, I really wonder why you quote some Repub getting mad a Bush over whatever.

    I think the basic problem with you, Aaron, edger, et al, is that you are not capable of understanding that it is possible to work with the tools you have to get what you want.

    [ Parent ]

    PPJ, you can call yourself an (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 12:29:47 AM EST
    independent social liberal until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true.

    As for being strong on national defense, the fact is that someone who wants to have our troops stay in Iraq is on the same side as al-Qaeda.

    Al Qaeda supporters love the fact that American soldiers are there as easy targets, it serves their  propaganda purposes. If we were out of Iraq they would have no raison d'etre for being there as well, and would be driven out and/or slaughtered as the majority of Iraqis only support them now on the basis of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", a concept you claim to know something about.

    I doubt that the overwhelming majority of Americans who want us out of Iraq would characterize themselves as weak on national defense, so I don't mind being libeled by a wingnut such as yourself, as I'm one of them as well.

    As for your basic problem, JL doesn't have enough bandwidth for me to delve into that subject, except to say that accepting reality and not the nutty version that you continue to prate about here would be a significant step towards solving it.

    Unless you're paid by al-Qaeda, in which case, you've earned your '30 pieces of silver'.

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    DA (1.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 09:33:04 AM EST
    Let me see.

    We are engaged in a global war. Iraq is one battle.

    And you want to leave Iraq.

    You think that is logical and will not be seen as a loss by the world, including the terrorists.

    Okay. Fine. You may return to The Twilight Zone...

    [ Parent ]

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 11:32:00 AM EST
    We are engaged in a global war. Iraq is one battle.

    Which is where al-Qaeda wasn't until we invaded. The invasion allowed them to come in to Iraq and fight us.

    And you want to leave Iraq.

    Which al-Qaeda doesn't want us to do, as one of them told a French journalist while he was held hostage in Iraq:

    And at this time it was very, not funny, but amazing because it was at the time of the election, American election, where there was John Kerry and George Bush, you know, competing in the U.S. election. And I said to him, maybe you will vote to Kerry because he wants a withdrawal of the U.S. troops in Iraq. He said not at all. We want George Bush. I vote George Bush because with him it will be more confrontation, more violence and after one year, two years, we will be more stronger because we will be more experienced in the fighting against the Americans.

    Link

    You think that is logical and will not be seen as a loss by the world, including the terrorists.

    The terrorists will try to spin it, of course, but as we see, you're taking the side of the terrorists on this issue.

    BTW, why are you so worried about what the terrorists think?

    Also, you like to say that "Eagles don't flock", that is, we should be independent of world opinion in our policy, except when it suits your purpose that we should consider it as in the present case.

    I wouldn't say you were in the Twilight Zone, because as Rod Serling himself said:

    You're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Twilight Zone!

    But since you display no imagination, you're obviously not from and/or going there, for now.

    Was this helpful to you?

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    Jesus. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 11:35:42 AM EST
    Is ppj STILL supporting al-Qaeda?

    Christ, you'd think he would have learned by now that the whole world is determined to eliminate terrorists.

    Amazing. I guess some people will just never get it.

    [ Parent ]

    DA (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:05:26 PM EST
    The terrorists will try to spin it, of course, but as we see, you're taking the side of the terrorists on this issue.

    Try???

    Let's see. US invades. Terrorists oppose. Demos say war is lost US leaves.

    Spin?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    [ Parent ]

    PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:46:46 PM EST
    SS, DD.

    US invades

    and turns the country into a broken morass , as well as failing to secure the borders against al-Qaeda types coming in, something that was predicted to happen before the invasion, BTW.

    Terrorists oppose.

    Again, and a shorter quote to help with your impaired reading skills:

    He said not at all. We want George Bush. I vote George Bush because with him it will be more confrontation, more violence and after one year, two years, we will be more stronger because we will be more experienced in the fighting against the Americans.

    If the invasion was successful, the terrorists would have no raison d'etre to be in Iraq, so by screwing it up so badly, we in effect gave a reason for the Iraqis to support them.

    The Iraqis want us out, as well, so that puts them on the side of the terrorists as well, by your logic.

    Demos say war is lost US leaves

    Actually, it's common sense as well as a majority of the American people, but you don't believe in polls unless they coincide with your beliefs on a given subject.

    It's not a war, BTW, it's an occupation that when ended, will give al-Qaeda no reason to be in Iraq, as I've outlined above.

    Of course they will try to spin it, just as you attempt on a almost-daily basis here attempt to polish the t***s that our occupation, and their spin  will work as well as yours does here, which is not at all sad to say.

    You really aren't good at logic, are you PPJ?

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    DA loves strawmen (1.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 09:43:39 PM EST
    For some reason you seem to think that if we become engaged in a war and if the enemy shows up, we should leave.

    My only possible comment is:

    Huh???

    [ Parent ]

    We didn't invade Iraq (none / 0) (#67)
    by Dark Avenger on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 02:19:34 AM EST
    and found that al-Qaeda was already there ready to fight against us(unless you're Dick Cheney), we screwed up the invasion(which even you admitted to a while back) and gave al-Qaeda an opening which they exploited.

    For some reason you seem to think that if we become engaged in a war and if the enemy shows up, we should leave.

    Your own fondness for oversimplified strawmen is much greater than mine, as any casual perusal of your comments would demonstrate to the intelligent researcher.

    I believe that if we become engaged in a war, we shouldn't abuse the civilian population to the point where an enemy can use such treatment as a reason for said population to be attracted to their side, and shouldn't have such poor control over the battle zone as to allow said enemy to come in from outside.

    Let's see if you're capable of complex and nuanced thought after digesting this:

    CROWLEY:  And this is a very complex situation because Pakistan has never had--the central government has never exercised authority over the tribal areas.  These guys are to some extent now in a safe haven in no man`s land.

    We have to find ways to support President Musharraf, push him to go further as he has in recent days to confront militants in his country.  We have to find ways to strengthen the Karzai government in Afghanistan.  But look, to a large extent, we have made bin Laden`s job a lot easier.  We have validated the al Qaeda narrative.  We are the occupiers of sacred lands.  We are war with Lizam (ph)(Islam? ed).  So lots of this is that we have to stop doing things that gives bin Laden unjustified legitimacy in the Muslim world.

    OLBERMANN:  And back here of course, timing is everything and we see one of these curious sequences juxtapositions again.  The Bush administration announcing today it has arrested the highest-ranking Iraqi leader of al Qaeda in Iraq.  The capture took place two weeks ago, but yet the White House is announcing this arrest, perhaps politicizing it because this is one day after it was given a failing report card in the war on terror by its own investigation of it.  Is this as blatant a - well we`ve got to come up with something big to obscure yesterday`s bad news for us as we`ve had before?

    CROWLEY:  Well, as Jon Alter said, nothing`s going to change the primary focus here, but I guess at least they didn`t say it was another turning point.

    There have been so many turning points over the past four years, we`re all becoming dizzy. I mean, at some point we have to - what the NIE ultimately reminds us is that not withstanding the president`s claim that we are fighting guys in Iraq today who are responsible for 9/11 -- that is not true.  It`s dishonest.  And what the NIE reminds us of is that these are the guys, core al Qaeda in Pakistan - in a safe haven, they`re the ones who are responsible for 9/11.  We know where they are and we also know why they still matter.

    And this:

    OLBERMANN:  This is a conversation we have had so many times before we could probably just act it out in mime.  But so long as the White House keeps making these claims, I guess we`re going to have to keep knocking this down.  Let`s start here with this equation: al Qaeda, the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11, was in all the papers, to the organization that calls itself al Qaeda in Iraq.

    Is that an honest parallel connection merging to make?

    CRESSEY:  No, it is completely and misleading.  The organization that attacked us on 9/11 is still trying to attack us.  That is the group that is primarily on the Afghan/Pakistan border that you have seen all of the intelligence community assessments about in the past few days.

    The group inside Iraq is very indigenous.  It is a function of what happened in Iraq after Saddam was overthrown.  In effect, we have actually helped create the conditions that allowed al Qaeda to take root in Iraq.

    It is clear that al Qaeda in Iraq has ideological sympathies with al Qaeda central.  That clearly there has been some communication between the two, but it is false and misleading for the president to make that direct linkage the way he did.  

    Huh???

    Perhaps this is the only time that you've been successful at reading my mind after I've read your comment.

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    DA - Lives in the past (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 10:26:06 AM EST
    It doesn't matter who was there, or wasn't there when we invaded. That is in the past.

    What matters is that if we lose, we lose in the present.

    The loss will be seen as a loss, and will impact our future relations with every country and every terrorist group.

    [ Parent ]

    ppj, what you dont (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 10:47:20 AM EST
    get (more like refuse to get), is that you need moral credibility to maintain public support for adventures like this. When you make your case based on obvious distortions, transparent Madison Avenue hocus pocus and flat out dastardly lies, the slow-to-catch-on public eventually catches up with the self-serving b.s. Suprise.

    [ Parent ]
    PPJ, perhaps this gentleman from Spain (none / 0) (#70)
    by Dark Avenger on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 04:10:54 PM EST
    was thinking of you when he said this:

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.


    [ Parent ]
    BTD (1.00 / 1) (#2)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 06:57:20 PM EST
    Nothing could suit the Repubs better than for the Demos to lock somebody up without going through what is the usually understood judical process.

    And you can explain until the cows come home but it will be seen as an overt grab of power driven by the Left.

    Ha, ha, ha, good one! (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Sailor on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 07:49:11 PM EST
    it will be seen as an overt grab of power driven by the Left.
    after years of 'signing statements', 'unitary exec', violating the constitution and GenCons and ignoring all over site it's the left that's making a power grab.

    Geebus, who writes this your material?

    But I am comforted because every prediction ppj has made has turned out to be wrong.

    [ Parent ]

    You didn't object when Bush decided (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:11:17 PM EST
    he could lock up an American citizen indefinitely without trial or evidence. What's your problem now?


    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Get in the game. Your facts aren't. (1.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 10:21:57 AM EST
    Talkleft12-17 1:06PM

    Lavocat - Check the archives. I have always supported trials in the US criminal justice system for all US citizens.

    The argument for holding him would be that he had valuable intelligence that could only be obtained over time, or that information he has given can only be checked out over time, or that a public trial could reveal the sources of intelligence and put agents in harm's way.

    The other point is, if the crime is committed outside the US, is the US required to try him within the US??

    I confess, I don't know. My bias is, has been and will remain.

    Try him as a citizen, and if convicted, hang him. That should be the fate of any citizen who decides to take up arms against his country. It is the ultumate betrayal.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree. (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 10:35:49 AM EST
    Try Bush as a citizen. Since he is one. Give him a fair trial, then hang him. Cheney too. Maybe some of their supporters too.

    The only question left, ppj, is do they deserve better treatment and fairer judicial proceedings than they've given to other American Citizens?

    Or do you think that what Cheney and Bush and their supporters offer to other Americans is good enough for them too?

    So I Remember Ev'ry Face - Of Ev'ry Man Who Put Me Here

    The original court filings, psychiatric evaluations, affidavits, and photos of Jose Padilla documenting some of his treatment in the Navy brig, are here.

    The treatment that Jose Padilla has been subjected to at the hands of his own countrymen and his own government flies in the face of every standard of human decency and every ethical and moral standard ever conceived.



    [ Parent ]
    You are simply ... (none / 0) (#21)
    by chemoelectric on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:04:59 PM EST
    ... wrong. Congress's approval numbers will go up, even while the Big Bad GOP Wolf huffs and puffs. And, because Bushâ€<sup>TM</sup>s he-manly play-acting will appear feeble, he will further lose the support of his Big Bad Base.

    [ Parent ]
    woops (none / 0) (#22)
    by chemoelectric on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:06:55 PM EST
    that should say 'Bush's he-manly play-acting'. This site is dumb about Unicode.

    [ Parent ]
    Molly B and sailor (1.00 / 1) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:26:53 PM EST
    I have no problem. You do.

    I am merely pointing out what will happen.

    Please be my guest and make sure it does.

    Delusion exemplified. (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:37:05 PM EST
    Well done, ppj. Well, maybe overdone. Burnt, actually.

    [ Parent ]
    edger (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:48:28 PM EST
    Please be my guest and join MB and sailor.

    The general lack of understanding of the american public by the Left is truly astonishing.

    [ Parent ]

    Here (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:49:49 PM EST
    Maybe this will help you. I don't have much faith though.

    [ Parent ]
    Your entire argument... (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:56:40 PM EST
    ...rests on your firm belief that a majority of the American people are reactionary idiots who, despite the unquestioned constitutionality of Congress's action (and their own dislike of the president), will nonetheless, like a bunch of mentally impaired children, hold Congress in greater contempt for persecuting poor little Harriet Myers and Bolton -- who are aides to a president as reviled as any in this nation's history.

    Reviled by whom?

    A solid majority of the American people.

    This is simple, straightforward logic, Jim.  

    When you're in contempt of Congress, and the President says "I won't allow the courts to look at this", the only legal recourse Congress has left is inherent contempt.  That's all this is about, Jim.  But if you're convinced Americans are just too stupid to grasp that, well, I guess I have more faith in my country than you do.

    [ Parent ]

    jahhahahahha (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 12:22:45 AM EST
    The general lack of understanding of the american public by the Left is truly astonishing.

    ppj belives that his views are representative of the majority of general public.

    What a laugh

    [ Parent ]

    You underestimate the American People (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:48:11 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    MB (1.00 / 1) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:58:12 PM EST
    The public will see this for what it is.

    A political argument.

    [ Parent ]

    Why is it a political argument and not a legal one (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 09:46:47 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    I said the "public" (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 09:30:59 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Your logical basis for this belief... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:48:15 PM EST
    ...is non-existent.  Your prediction reads as desperate and as if not even you believe it.  I never knew you liked the rule of Kings.  Guess I was wrong.

    You are defending Bush's decision to make himself accountable to no one on what grounds again?  That he only has to win an election and has free reign?  To fix elections by stacking the federal prosecutors office with lackies and election rigging yes-men?  

    If your old bugaboo Clinton had done anything remotely similar to this you'd have been screaming louder than anyone.  Don't even try to suggest otherwise.  At least Clinton had his people testify under oath.  Your half-wit silver spoon trustfund boy doesn't even respect the American people enough to stand up, be a man, and let the chips fall where they may.

    Oh no, he's not hiding anything.  

    Please.

       

    [ Parent ]

    Jim's been a monarchist ever since I can remember (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:00:13 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    MB (1.00 / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:16:30 PM EST
    I can always tell when I write the truth by the protests.

    [ Parent ]
    Stay away from Owsley's White Lighting! (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:17:38 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    I guess (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:23:31 PM EST
    one wasn't enough. Here's another. Take both. If they don't work nothing will.

    [ Parent ]
    edger (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:29:46 PM EST
    Like I said, I can always tell when I score by the moans from the stands.

    BTW - You really can't refute my argument. You know it. I know it.

    [ Parent ]

    It's irrefutable. (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:43:03 PM EST
    Because it is a brainless argument.

    Here's another one. Don't OD.

    [ Parent ]

    dadler (3.00 / 2) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 08:56:40 PM EST
    Try to concentrate.

    I am defending no one. I am just describing how the public will react to actions by the non-judical branch of the government.

    Worse, these are women, and I assume have families.

    How about a shot of them hugging their children as they are snatched off to jail??

    Do you remember the Cuban boy, and the picture of him being taken away by armed INS agents in full battle dress?? How many votes do you think that cost??

    Try to think sometimes. You had a popular VP of a popular President during peacetime when the economy was coming off a tremendous boom.

    How could Bush ever even get close?

    People are very sensitive over such things. Congress may have the right.

    They'll be fools to excercise it.

    [ Parent ]

    The Cuban Boy??? (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 09:05:22 PM EST
    You mean the kid who was reuinited with the father that loved him and wanted to take him home?

    If that cost anyone votes, well, sometimes the right thing to do is the hardest because it WON'T make you popular.  

    However, my boy, the two situations are about as incomparable as you could get.  Why?  A little boy is a sympathetic figure.  Neither Meirs nor Bolton will get anything within a solar system of that kind of sympathy.  They are extenstions of a president reviled by his own nation.  

    [ Parent ]

    dadler (1.00 / 1) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:13:54 PM EST
    You, and the Left in general, are why you lose elections.

    [ Parent ]
    Walls closing in? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:16:40 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    delusional (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by Sailor on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:56:18 PM EST
    66% of Americans disagree with you.

    [ Parent ]
    As happened in the 2006 midterms? (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Dark Avenger on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:25:54 PM EST
    before which you wrote the following:

    I think the Demos are getting worried, and I see some whistling past the graveyard.

    Your track record of predictions isn't exactly sterling, and the fact is that an overwhelming majority of the public isn't on your side, PPJ.

    You can b**, moan, cast blame all around, but you should acknowledge reality sometimes, even at the cost of the entertainment your comments provide  et al around here.

    T!

    [ Parent ]

    da, sailor, mb, et al (1.00 / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:36:12 PM EST
    I love it.. keep on trying to convince yourself..

    BTW - Congress, which is now DEMOCRATIC ran, has terrible ratins...

    [ Parent ]

    You can't even convince yourself (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 12:06:33 AM EST
    that your track record on predictions is something to be proud of, much less anyone else, PPJ.

    Also, you're the one who tells us that Arbusto does the right thing without reference to the polls, but you want a poll-driven Congress, or do you only cite polls when they seem to be to your advantage?

    "The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks."

    Anyhoo, this is what Glenn Greenwald had to say about Congress and the polls:

    These specific issue findings also highlight one of the most misused and exploited facts waved around by our pundits -- namely, that the approval ratings for Congress are as low as, if not lower than, the ratings for the President. That fact is used to imply that Bush's unprecedented unpopularity is merely a symptom of unfocused discontent with politics generally and/or that the Democratic Congress is unpopular because it is perceived as being too extreme, overzealous and radical in its opposition to the President.

    In fact, the Democratic Congress is stuck at this depth of unpopularity for one principal reason: namely, because (as the polling data above demonstrates) it has done too little to oppose the Bush administration, both on Iraq and in exercising its oversight responsibilities. The low approval ratings for the Congress are due to dissatisfaction among Democrats that Congress has been too passive, not due to dissatisfaction among independents and Republicans that it has been too aggressive.

    Just review President Bush's approval ratings by party breakdown from the latest CBS News poll:

        "Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?"

        REPUBLICANS:

        Approve - 66%

        Disapprove - 23%

        Unsure - 11%

    Even as unpopular as he is, three times more Republicans still approve of his performance as disapprove. Compare that with the approval ratings from Democrats with regard to the Democratic Congress, from the same poll:

        Do you approve or disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job?

        DEMOCRATS:

        Approve - 37%

        Disapprove - 49%

        Unsure - 14%

    Plainly, the reason the approval ratings for the Democratic Congress are so low is because the rank-and-file of their own party disapproves of the job they are doing, by an unusually wide margin. It is Democratic discontent, grounded in perceptions of excessive passivity, which is responsible for the low esteem in which the Congress is held.

    Thus, even the causes and meaning of the low approval rating for Congress are wildly misrepresented by our media's conventional wisdom. It is due primarily to the failure of Congress to restrict, challenge, investigate and limit the actions of the Bush administration, i.e., in its failure to go far enough in providing a desperately needed counterweight to the fringe movement and the corrupt government that has been ruling our country for the last six years.

    Link

    Anything else you need clarification on, PPJ?

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    DA can't focus (1.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 09:21:44 AM EST
    Clarify what and by who? Glen Greenwald?

    Surely you jest. (But of course you don't.) I'd as soon accept Kristol as Greenwald when it comes to politics. Neither can see past their nose.

    He claims that the Demo controlled Congress has poor ratings from Demos because it isn't investigating the Executive enough. No proof. Just a claim.

    Could it be that they are disgusted with the fact that the DEMOS aren't addressing any of the problems of the country? Corruption? Earmarks? Healthcare? Energy?

    No. Of course not!!!!! It is because Congress isn't doing what the Left wants!!!!!! (Careful. Heavy sarcasm.)

    [ Parent ]

    Have more coffee. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 09:37:30 AM EST
    Read. Pay Attention. Deluding won't help you.

    WASHINGTON - Dismal approval ratings for the Democratic-led Congress - even worse than President Bush's - don't seem to be a threat to the party in next year's elections.

    Congress' reputation is hurt by widespread anger over the war in Iraq
    , and lawmakers' inability to change the war's course. On that point, Republicans are still far more vulnerable than Democrats, say strategists in both parties.
    ...
    "The Democrats now own a share of discontent with national conditions, but it's a minority share. People still look to the White House and Republicans" as the people responsible for most of the discontent, said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press.
    ...
    The numbers for Congress are the worst in a year, and match the dubious standing of the GOP Congress in 2006, months before voters rejected Republicans en masse. AP's survey indicated that the war, more than anything else, was seen as the most important problem facing the country.
    Forbes, July 20/07

    [ Parent ]
    edger (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 09:40:29 PM EST
    The Democrats now own a share of discontent with national conditions, but it's a minority share. People still look to the White House and Republicans"

    The issue is who will win in 2008.

    Bush isn't running, so beating up on him won't work.

    The individual races are just that. I don't have the numbers, but historically people have disdained Congress but loved their rep/senator. Overall it should be remembered that the Demos took control based on some very slim wins in 2006. That "minority share" could very easily be their undoing.

    [ Parent ]

    Don't support linking to my own past comments, (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 09:12:01 PM EST
    but, --- I did mention "Little Elian" and the Janet Reno rescue from the Little Havana branch of the family in a comment in BTD's first post-conversion diary on inherent contempt.

    OT but interesting:  although at the time I thought Elian belonged with his father, I've changed my mind after reading Waiting for Snow in Havana and reading the author's thoughts on the subject of Little E.  

    [ Parent ]

    The chivalry card Jim? (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 09:37:12 PM EST
    Chivalry is dead thank God.....died when Guinevere stepped out on Arthur and women had to be responsible for their actions without Knightly and Kingly protections.  Every time some guy who doesn't know me is trying to be chivalrous toward me he is usually using me for his own personal agenda.  Imagine that!

    [ Parent ]
    What?? (1.00 / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 10:15:42 PM EST
    It won't be me. The Demo Congress will do it for the Repubs.

    [ Parent ]
    Elian Gonzalez's return to his father in Cuba... (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Aaron on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:26:54 PM EST
    ...was a parental custody issue, where a judge interpreting the law made the final determination.

    While politics was involved, the law prevailed as, ideally, it always should.

    Yet another example of your insistence on placing ideology ahead of the law, and ethical morality Jim.

    Basically your argument is that winning by any means is all that counts, even if you sell out the American people and destroy the Republic in the bargain, it's OK as long as you hold onto to the last tiny thread of power as everything collapses around you.  If the Conservatives must abandon their integrity and destroy democracy in order to keep themselves in power, then I submit that they have lost all perspective, and are destined to self-destruct over and over again.

    [ Parent ]

    Re Harriet Meiers: (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 09:06:53 PM EST
    single, as I recall,in dedicated service to Mr. Bush, the younger.

    [ Parent ]
    That load of hooey (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 04:02:01 PM EST
    from the guy who wants to publicly string up young American soldiers (an ingenious p.r move if there ever wasn one), for disobeying orders.

    [ Parent ]
    Who do we need to push, and when? (none / 0) (#1)
    by jerry on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 06:07:14 PM EST
    I am concerned that if Congress delays prosecution with inherent contempt past the recess, nothing will happen when they get back.

    Are my fears justified?

    What do you think the timing of this should be, or will be?

    Though I have never watched a bloggingheads all the way through -- I don't hate myself THAT much -- it might make for an interesting blogging heads debate.  30 minutes total!  One constitutional law blogger mano a mano with another constitutional law blogger.

    Two bloggers enter....

    Now We Know (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 06:03:27 PM EST
    Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA) warned Gonzales yesterday: "My suggestion to you is you review your testimony to find out if your credibility has been breached to the point of being actionable," Specter said. Time reports, "The maximum penalty for being caught lying to Congress is five years in prison and a fine of $250,000 per count. Specter wryly noted to reporters during a break that there is a jail in the Capitol complex."

    think progress

    Not that I believe Specter is going to put any of BushCo in it. Still, there are others to do the job.