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How About Congress Gives Bush Until April 1 2008?

By Big Tent Democrat, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue May 08, 2007 at 10:27:20 AM EST
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Via KagroX, some are saying September is the key month on Iraq:

"Many of my Republican colleagues have been promised they will get a straight story on the surge by September," said Sen. Gordon Smith (R-Ore.). "I won't be the only Republican, or one of two Republicans, demanding a change in our disposition of troops in Iraq at that point. That is very clear to me."

Via Talex, Obama agrees:

Presidential candidate Barack Obama on Sunday launched a public campaign to win enough votes to override a presidential veto of a troop withdrawal from Iraq. . . . Obama said he believed a phased troop withdrawal could be pushed through Congress this fall if the public applies enough pressure on Republicans over the summer. . . . "I think by the fall, if there's been concerted pressure over the summer (it could happen)," he said. "

Well, I don't. But take your best shot Senator. In the meantime, if you do not get that veto-proof majority in September, will you THEN commit to NOT funding the Debacle after April 1, 2008? That's 11 months from now. Surely the Surge, and the "ratcheting up the pressure" and all the excuses for not doing what has to be done to end the Debacle will have been proven duds by then if September is not the month that means something? Will you, Senator Obama, commit to NOT funding the war after April 1, 2008?

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    How About Congress Gives Bush Until April 1 2008? | 60 comments (60 topical)

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    2008?...Dream on (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by kdog on Tue May 08, 2007 at 10:41:39 AM EST
    The USO will be performing on Iraqi soil in 2010, 2020, and beyond.  We're not leaving that oil unattended ever.

    I am beginnig (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 10:54:36 AM EST
    to believe that the benchmarks for bringing the Troops home are not meant for Iraqis but Blackwater instead.

    It may not be politically acceptable or desirable to keep our troops there forever, but our presence will  certainly be felt and it will come at taxpayers expense until the oil and gas are all gone. You are correct about that, Kdog.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (none / 0) (#4)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 11:46:21 AM EST
    Just as in other countries we will maintain an Embassy in Iraq. Given the the terrible position we have put ourselves in with a large swath of the population there by invading and occupying we will need a more than normal size force to protect that embassy. That is just common sense like it or not.

    As for the oil - there is no question we are there for the oil. Now the question is to protect it or to not protect it. To not protect it would be to put current and future Iraqi oil supplies at jeopardy. To put it in jeopardy and disrupt it's supply further would probably mean gasoline in the $6 to $8 dollar range minimum given how much oil Iraq has.

    Also to not protect it would mean another country may go into protect it. Russia nd China would be two likely candidates. Given that energy is everything to us and that ample alternative sources are decades away one must ask if allowing Russia and China to control that oil be wise?

    Just things to think about.

    [ Parent ]

    "alternative sources are decades away" (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Dadler on Tue May 08, 2007 at 11:58:25 AM EST
    Given that we waste energy hand over fist, at a rate that is disgraceful; given that the oil lobby has bribed many a politician in the last hundred years so we DON'T develop ample alternative energy....how can you claim that statement as even half serious?

    In one day, Americans waste enough to fill our genuine NEEDS for many days.  We all know that, and almost all of us do nothing about it.  Because that is our very culture -- consume, consume, consume, waste, waste, waste, use, use use...

    If we are decades away, it is only because we have chosen to be.  A clear and unambiguous choice.  Which we can unmake at any time.  It's up to us.  Period.

    [ Parent ]

    Ha (none / 0) (#14)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:18:41 PM EST
    Given that we waste energy hand over fist, at a rate that is disgraceful; given that the oil lobby has bribed many a politician in the last hundred years so we DON'T develop ample alternative energy....how can you claim that statement as even half serious?

    Partly for the exact reasons you just gave.

    Why ask a question of me when you had part of the answer all along?

    [ Parent ]

    Eh??? (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Dadler on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:35:38 PM EST
    You made the statement and it read purely technological in nature.  I didn't get any sense you had conservation in mind as a major area of relief.  And if you do view conservation as a major component, then why would decades have anything to do with it?  If you think we CAN'T conserve as we should in a timely fashion, that Americans just aren't capable of such major victories when needed, that our better bet is to keep war alive in Iraq, then say so.  Saying we have to in order to keep China or Russia out makes sense, sure, but you're really saying stay there because we can't possibly do better in a reasonable amount of time.  Yes, I think we waste like mad, I think consumer culture is committing suicide, but I also think that odd freedom thing about America is still capable of showing us a better way and doing so in a hurry when required.

    I guess, thinking about it, you're more cynical than I am about the American public.  I'm skeptical, no cynical.  I may get angry as hell, or depressed as sh*t about the political divide and what I perceive as my fellow American's failings, as well as my own, but I still have faith in our survival instinct and in the freedom we have to invent and think and change.  It's getting late, but it can be done.

    [ Parent ]

    I Conserve (none / 0) (#30)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:28:19 PM EST
    I drive a small vehicle. I make less trips to the store. I keep lights tuned off at home. But on the way to the store there are far more giant SUV's on the road with one person in them than there are small cars.

    As for alternative source I say decades because it will take decades to develop and incorporate into the infrastructure.

    [ Parent ]

    dadler (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:03:29 PM EST
    Guess the oil lobby kept us from developing nuclear power.

    Uh huh. Sure.

    Repeat after me:

    Envrionmental Wackos.

    [ Parent ]

    And don't pin your hopes on Ethanol... (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:09:23 PM EST
    Ethanol is widely touted as an eco-friendly, clean-burning fuel. But if every vehicle in the United States ran on fuel made primarily from ethanol instead of pure gasoline, the number of respiratory-related deaths and hospitalizations likely would increase, according to a new study by Stanford University atmospheric scientist Mark Z. Jacobson. His findings are published in the April 18 online edition of the journal Environmental Science & Technology (ES&T)

    Link

    If you want to debate, let's go to the open post.

    [ Parent ]

    Iraq should, and will, protect their own oil (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by fairleft on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:18:38 PM EST
    they had no problem doing so under decades of Saddam. So, that is another alternative: a sovereign Iraq, deciding by itself what to do with its oil. What they will very likely do is sell it to the highest bidder.

    [ Parent ]
    Make Bush's Case Why Don't You (none / 0) (#15)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:24:45 PM EST
    They can't protect it all by themselves now - so when?

    Are you saying that we should stay there until they can? That is what Bush wants.

    As for selling it to the highest bidder - in general oil sells at or below world market rates regardless who it is sold to. We have not yet reached the point where supplies are so low that people are bidding for it at auction. But some day we will if we don't move on alternative sources.

    [ Parent ]

    _They_ can, they and us can't (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by fairleft on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:56:24 PM EST
    As long as the U.S. occupies Iraq for the purpose (you have stated) of controlling Iraq's oil, Iraq's oil will be insecure. As long as the purpose of "a secure oil supply" is to supply excess profits for U.S. based oil companies, there will be effective resistance to a secure oil supply. When the U.S. leaves, Iraq will be able to secure its oil, because then (nearly) all Iraqis will be in favor of a secure oil supply to fund a prosperous Iraq.

    [ Parent ]
    I Don't Disagree (none / 0) (#25)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:14:29 PM EST
    with a couple of your points. But I will say that either way us protect or us not protect the oil it will be under attack. Just as there was a recent plot to blowup Saudi oil fields.

    And yes you are right. "Nearly" all Iraqis would want that. It is the ones who don't who are the problem.

    I don't get how you think the Iraqis can protect their oil 'right now' when we with a trained army, technology, and air power cannot.

    [ Parent ]

    iraqi oil did not need protecting (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by conchita on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:24:12 PM EST
    until the u.s. occupied the country with the endgoal of stealing it.  it is from iraqis that the u.s. is "protecting" the oil.  who do you think is sabotaging pipelines?  

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah Exactly (none / 0) (#31)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:30:25 PM EST
    so what's your point?

    [ Parent ]
    my point is (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by conchita on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:54:44 PM EST
    that is we stop trying to steal the iraqi's oil, they will stop trying to keep us from stealing it.  you may say protect, i think the real word is steal.

    [ Parent ]
    Saying Stealing (1.00 / 1) (#41)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:11:18 PM EST
    does not make it so.

    Again - stealing is not paying for something. We are not doing that.

    By saying that you sound like some irrational wacko.

    [ Parent ]

    It is much more complex than that (none / 0) (#43)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:39:26 PM EST
    It is not about the buying and selling of oil. It is about oil profits. The Iraqi oil reserves can play a  huge role on the oil markets. Saddam got in much more trouble for increasing the world supply (lowering prices - lowering profits) than for withholding oil from the market.

    So, the argument over whether it is stealing or protecting is irrelevant. What the oil companies and  cartels want is control over Iraqi oil so the prices can remain stable and in a reasonable range. Deals have been worked out with other exporting countries keeping the profits in as few hands as possible. Saddam was a thorn in the side of those who work these deals (The Saudis - Princes and Kings - and the Bushies - Fathers and sons - among them) and could single handedly void these deals by flooding the markets with Iraqi Oil. His invasion of Kuwait and threatening of SA was unacceptable for the uncertainty that would result if more oil was in hands. Iran and Chavez certainly poses a similar threat to these backroom deals. WE have heard the allegations against Iran and when we begin to here charges that Chavez is behind terrorist acts and is attempting to develop WMD's we can expect another occupation to begin soon. For all practical purposes, stealing is fairly benign description for this exploitation of a countries resources benefiting a few at the expense of the many and for the many casualties of War that inevitably result.

    [ Parent ]

    no disagreement here (none / 0) (#51)
    by conchita on Tue May 08, 2007 at 04:03:56 PM EST
    i would also include african countries nigeria, somalia, ethiopia, and eritrea in this list.  the global war on terror/oil grab is already playing out there.

    a good overview of the african outposts.

    [ Parent ]

    Why does that link look familair (none / 0) (#52)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 04:08:37 PM EST
    Billmon?

    [ Parent ]
    after billmon closed down comments (none / 0) (#54)
    by conchita on Tue May 08, 2007 at 04:10:47 PM EST
    this is where many of his readers continued to comment on his posts.  even though he has stopped writing, they carry on.  one regular, b real, has been researching africa diligently for some time.  his posts are well worth reading.

    [ Parent ]
    ad homs again? (none / 0) (#55)
    by conchita on Tue May 08, 2007 at 04:12:44 PM EST
    if you do not scratch the surface to find what is beneath the rhetoric you may come to that conclusion.  if you take a minute and read and research you will find otherwise.

    [ Parent ]
    ad homs again?????? (none / 0) (#57)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 04:27:27 PM EST
    How about you trying to say I was a neocon??? That's OK but suggesting that your theory that protecting is stealing is wacko is an ad homs?

    You guys here are too much.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (none / 0) (#18)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:43:21 PM EST
    A Sovereign Iraq selling its own oil is the panacea. But it won't happen.

    they had no problem doing so under decades of Saddam

    And look what happened to Saddam.

    [ Parent ]

    Look what is happening to the U.S. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by fairleft on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:59:18 PM EST
    The alternative to Iraqi sovereignty is chaos and many dead Iraqis and occupiers. The British learned this many decades and accomodated reality and soveriegnty in order to get the best deal they could for Iraqi oil. The U.S. had known this for decades too, until the neocons unlearned it. Sensible policy will return, eventually, unless those who prefer the present situation continuing indefinitely have more political power than I think.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, I agree (none / 0) (#39)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:55:22 PM EST
    about the alternative. I am justing pointing out the obvious. All oil exporting countries suffer under some sort of tyranny or exploitation, except, perhaps, Venezuela. And, Chavez's salvation has been our current occupation of Iraq.

    I hope there is a return to sensible policy, but as long as there is a concentration of wealth in so few hands, I am afraid that we will see a long involvement with Iraq and around the world under the auspices of what the rest of the World knows as American Imperialism.

    So, I would say evidence demonstrates that concentrated Wealth has much more power than you will admit and the power of democracy much less.

    [ Parent ]

    Evidence in support of your point: NY Times (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:58:21 PM EST
    article [Sunday?] about oil fields off the coast of Southern Cambodia.  No assurance any of the benefit will ever flow to the people who work so hard for so little in Cambodia.  Sad.

    [ Parent ]
    'some sort of tyranny' is very general (none / 0) (#49)
    by fairleft on Tue May 08, 2007 at 03:36:50 PM EST
    and maybe your right at that very general level.

    But many oil-producing countries are sovereign, in other words they control their oil for the benefit of national interests. Venezuela, Malaysia, Libya, Russia and Iran are definite and prime examples. Of course we don't know the degree of 'imperial' control/influence in most countries, but I think countries like Mexico, Indonesia, and many of the central Asian countries are further examples of more or less sovereign nations controlling their resources for in-country capitalists or even in part for the 'people'.

    Anyway, I wasn't writing about 'democracy' and/or 'people power', I was writing about sovereignty. I love it but in the third world democracy often is too weak, too corruptible by imperial interests.

    [ Parent ]

    I think I understand (none / 0) (#50)
    by Peaches on Tue May 08, 2007 at 03:58:10 PM EST
    what you are saying, now. It is not the exploitation or even the tyranny, you object to, but rather the US occupation of Iraq.

    I think it will be arranged for a sovereign government to control Iraq. I also think this sovereign government will be under the influence of our policies that exploit Iraqi Oil resources for our benefit for many years to come. The average Iraqi will continue to suffer under this agreement a sovereign gov't has made with the imperial interests, but probably not as much so as they are currently suffering under our present occupation.

    I think that could be considered an improvement.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree. It's unclear what will happen (none / 0) (#60)
    by fairleft on Wed May 09, 2007 at 01:18:16 PM EST
    but most govts in Iraq's situation -- ones with some fight in them and some resources they can make hard to get -- usually play a balancing act between internal and external interests, not completely satisfying either. But the craven subservience -- everything for the international oil and arms companies and nothing for Iraq -- demanded by present policy will have to be a thing of the past for the country to have some kind of peace.

    [ Parent ]
    "protect" it? (none / 0) (#27)
    by conchita on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:20:52 PM EST
    talex, you seem to condone that we have occupied iraq for its oil. "protect" is like doublespeak for steal.  the oil in iraq is not ours unless we buy it from the iraqis.  are you that deep into achieving the veto majority that you are beginning to think like the neocons?  next thing i expect you will be saying that the hydrocarbon law is all about the iraqis sharing the oil revenues amongst themselves.

    as fairleft said, the iraqis can manage their own oil, make their own agreements with corporations to develop it (ones that actually benefit iraqis), and then sell it to whomever wants to buy it.  they did not need the u.s. to do this for them before we occupied iraq and they do not need the u.s. to do this for them now.

    [ Parent ]

    ridiculous (1.00 / 1) (#36)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:39:59 PM EST
    talex, you seem to condone that we have occupied iraq for its oil. "protect" is like doublespeak for steal.  the oil in iraq is not ours unless we buy it from the iraqis.

    You are bing ridiculous so I will keep this short.

    Protecting stabilizes oil markets. No one is stealing. We are not loading tankers and not paying for them.
     

    are you that deep into achieving the veto majority that you are beginning to think like the neocons?  next thing i expect you will be saying that the hydrocarbon law is all about the iraqis sharing the oil revenues amongst themselves.

    How do you even connect ending the war with a veto proof majority with neocons?

    Keep up that kind of line of reasoning and I will treat your posts like Edgar's and andgarden's - I just won't read them anymore.

    [ Parent ]

    asdf (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by conchita on Tue May 08, 2007 at 04:23:03 PM EST
    over 4m iraqis have fled their country.  those that remain behind wait in long lines for gas,  have minimal to no electricity in their homes, and live in fear for their lives while their natural resources are being coopted by an occupying power.  no, we are not loading up tankers, but i wouldn't be in the least surprised to find out that haliburton/kellogg read has been siphoning.  bottom line, it is their oil to decide what to do with it, not the u.s., not an oil cartel.  you seem to have lost sight of iraq as a sovereign nation.

    about my remark about the neocons, your perseverating on a veto proof majority really does seem that you are drinking some kind of koolaid, maybe a less strong batch brewed up by spineless dems.  i agree with others who have recommended to you to read up before commenting.

    i could care less if you read my comments, but i hope you read peaches' because you will learn something if you do.

    [ Parent ]

    Prediction: Senator Obama (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by robotalk on Tue May 08, 2007 at 11:43:55 AM EST
    out of the white house by November, 2008.  

    Yes - but until then (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by annefrank on Tue May 08, 2007 at 11:49:26 AM EST
    the media is having a good time using Obama.


    [ Parent ]
    'Liberals' put no pressure on Obama (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by fairleft on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:06:27 PM EST
    over at the premier site, dailykos, for example. They've either bought into their 'insider' status or just don't understand how politics works. Until Obama hurts for his dumb and weak political followership on Iraq, he'll stay an ineffectual and weak leader. And that hurts all the Dems in 2008, whether Obama gets the Prez nod or not.

    We need to train our Dem leaders to be strong, and that involves spanking them when they're bad.

    [ Parent ]

    Well said (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Categorically Imperative on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:25:23 PM EST
    I don't see much hope of Obamania slowing down though...hero worship tends to blind one's followers to "small" issues like falling down on Iraq.  

    Obama has been a disappointment on policy issues since he got elected, IMO.  If he keeps it up, I don't know how far he can go on recycled hype.  Unfortunately, he seems to be reading out of the "sensible centrist" playbook of wankery right now.

    [ Parent ]

    In January, Rep. Boehner said (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by annefrank on Tue May 08, 2007 at 11:53:26 AM EST
    "we" would know in 60-90 days if the surge was succeeding. At the end of 90 days he said we'd know by Sept. or Oct. Today, Rep. Issa kicked the can further down the road by stating "Sept., Oct., or November."
    We're not "succeeding" period until Bush's oil law is signed.

    The electoral burden of standing (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Geekesque on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:11:04 PM EST
    by the worst and least popular president in US history will only increase as the situation continues to deteriorate in Iraq.

    Remember that over the summer, the Sunnis are going to bolt the government completely and the Iraqi parliament will simply go on vacation instead of trying to hammer out differences.

    Even Bob Shrum could manage the campaign to begin withdrawal.

    I suspect that if it's fall and the Republican dead-enders value loyalty to Mr. Popularity over their own electoral future, then yeah Reid-Feingold will attract significant support.

    Friedmans, Friedmans Everywhere (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:11:50 PM EST
    Those who believe in the MAGIC month of September should also be given a magic pony and a Lucy's football to take along with them on their ride.

    Power of the Purse, or Iraq 2009 (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by fairleft on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:15:18 PM EST
    The only way the Democrats get the job done is to use the power of the purse. Democrats too afraid to use that power should be remembered as aiding and abetting the crime into 2009.

    And yeah that's right, in the real world Obama's position is a recipe for failure to get the troops out. September should be the time for the next very short-term supplemental, the last one.

    That's Pretty Shortsighted IMO (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:32:01 PM EST
    It kind of reminds me of the coyote having just one goal - to get the roadrunner...

    Without ever thinking that single-mindedly doing so just might take him over the cliff.

    [ Parent ]

    Interesting (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Categorically Imperative on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:58:17 PM EST
    Bush wants a new Friedman to test the effects of his "surge;" Obama wants a Friedman to see if public pressure can be brought to bear on recalcitrant GoOPers (and perhaps a less-than-motivated Obama?).  

    Good to see our "leaders" stepping up on this one.  If all Congress is going to do is wait to see which way the wind is blowing before ending this disaster, what the hell are we paying them for?  Let's get Gravel's national referendum program set up and turn the Capitol into a rec center.

    It wasn't oil (1.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:33:49 PM EST
    This is not about oil.

    If it had been oil, the oil companies could have cut all kinds of deals. Quietly, quickly with no pain. They could have then quietly eased prices up and out of sight.

    Nope, this was about Bush, and all the world's intelligence agencies and the Demos, believeing that  Iraq had WMD's. We now know that he (probably) had destroyed them. But we also know that he was chomping at the bit to get back in the WMD business.

    So the decision required a regime change. A regime change without doing too much damage to the infrastructure. And a regime change that would be US friendly and terrorist unfriendly.

    That was the goal. Now we can argue about how that  should have been done, and like any good Monday Quarterback tell the coach that was a stupid play.

    A couple of things happened. First, the anti-war Left convinced the Demos they could win elections by being anti-war and screaming for surrender plans. The terrorists saw this and realized that all they had to was hang on. The MSM, as always, carried the water for the Demos, and guess what. After being told repeatedly that we couldn't win, people started to believe it.

    History according to PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by squeaky on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:55:06 PM EST
    AKA: Bald Face Lies

    and all the world's intelligence agencies and the Demos, believeing that  Iraq had WMD's.

    What a load. Still apologizing for your boy's death machine?

    [ Parent ]

    How do you define "win"? And (none / 0) (#35)
    by oculus on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:39:10 PM EST
    how do accomplish this definitaion?  

    [ Parent ]
    Don't hold you breath.... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:20:04 PM EST
    I've been asking for a definition of "victory" since "mission accomplished" and never gotten a straight answer.

    [ Parent ]
    You're so cute Jim (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 08, 2007 at 09:34:03 PM EST
    Ya can't cut oil deals when everbody else is cutting your throat....something that Cheney and his adopted son didn't anticipate - that throat cutting thing and their army getting its arse handed to it by a bunch of ingrates ;)

    [ Parent ]
    As bad as I hate it (none / 0) (#8)
    by annefrank on Tue May 08, 2007 at 11:58:46 AM EST
    removing the timetable is probably good, if it gets Repubs on board. But while they're showing anxious constituents something other than "stay the course" - it COULD help them in 08.
    Contingencies (none / 0) (#11)
    by talex on Tue May 08, 2007 at 12:14:15 PM EST
    Well, I don't. But take your best shot Senator. In the meantime, if you do not get that veto-proof majority in September, will you THEN commit to NOT funding the Debacle after April 1, 2008? - - Armando

    Certainly one does not know if enough repubs will move our way be September. Some of the hardcore ones are already trying to move the goalposts to October and November because they know things will not be going well in September. Others are signaling very strongly that they could change their current position. They have already said they will give the surge some time but are doing it with reservations.

    And as we speak our Reps in congress are working on moving them in our direction. As is Obama.

    It's pretty clear here that Armando does not welcome the thought of a veto proof majority as he does not say 'I don't think it will happen but I'd welcome it'. No, he just dismisses it instead of joining congress and other people in working toward it as a viable goal. That's his choice but it does not nullify the efforts of others.

    As for defunding by April 1, 2008 that really is contingent on where the public is with that issue. They are not for defunding now as I have amply displayed here in the last week. Should they move in the direction of defunding then congress can look at that as a viable option and weigh the different approaches and the many ramifications that would result from taking that action which is something that Armando still fails to consider.

    Thinking through every step we take in trying to end the Iraq Debacle is just something that any of us, including congress, can't afford not to do.

    Armando - please! (none / 0) (#26)
    by annefrank on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:18:39 PM EST
    Can't we use dates other than April Fool's??
    The Iraqi Study Group's date was March 31/08. (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by oculus on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:37:29 PM EST
    Better?

    [ Parent ]
    Meanwhile, the LA Times reporter (none / 0) (#32)
    by oculus on Tue May 08, 2007 at 01:30:31 PM EST
    "embedded" at Falluja with Marines from Camp Pendleton sd. the officers are telling the troops the latest vehicles are on their way, as those Humvees really don't do the job against the IEDs.  8000 Marines in Falluja, lots of check points, curfews, etc.  Looking good until the Marines move out to a different area of Anbar province.  

    BTD: how about some investigative reporting (none / 0) (#44)
    by oculus on Tue May 08, 2007 at 02:51:25 PM EST
    and/or links to reliable sources about the state of oil production in Iraq, profits from same, and who is reaping the benefit?

    I've read articles about pipelines the U.S. has rebuilt but that are subsequently vandalized, either to obtain some oil, or just to disrupt.  

    I've also read plenty of blog diaries and comments about the situation, but facts are good too.

    Some Info (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Tue May 08, 2007 at 03:02:13 PM EST
    Juan Cole and this from his link: Michael Schwartz

    [ Parent ]
    Oh the irony. Access to Talk Left--o.k. Access (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by oculus on Tue May 08, 2007 at 03:06:41 PM EST
    to Juan Cole--denied.  

    [ Parent ]
    Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by squeaky on Tue May 08, 2007 at 03:10:52 PM EST
    Those work computers can only tolerate so much......

    [ Parent ]
    More (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Tue May 08, 2007 at 03:06:10 PM EST
    If you want to dig

    [ Parent ]
    strongly recommend antonia juhasz (none / 0) (#53)
    by conchita on Tue May 08, 2007 at 04:08:38 PM EST
    link

    Juhasz is author of The Bu$h Agenda: Invading the World, One Economy at a Time (HarperCollins, April, 2006). The Bu$h Agenda exposes the Bush administration's use of corporate globalization policy as a weapon of war. Juhasz uncovers the history and key role of U.S. corporations in the creation of the Bush agenda, focusing on Bechtel, Lockheed Martin, Chevron, and Halliburton. Presenting the Iraq War as the most brutal application of the Bush agenda, Juhasz reveals the "oil time-line" driving the war, and how the administration has fundamentally transformed Iraq's economy, locking in sweeping advantages to its corporate allies - including increased access to Iraq's oil. The administration has expanded its target to the whole Middle East through the U.S.-Middle East Free Trade Area. Juhasz brings to sharp focus the dangerous fallacy that the United States can combat terrorism and spread democracy through its so-called "free trade" policies. It concludes with specific achievable alternatives for a more peaceful and sustainable course.

    [ Parent ]

    In horse racing (none / 0) (#59)
    by yetimonk on Tue May 08, 2007 at 10:08:30 PM EST
    in fixed races some jockeys are expert at "fanning" the horse with the whip, making it look like they're beating the horse to death trying to win, without actually touching them and at the same time nearly breaking the horses neck pulling back on the reigns.

    I think this is what Obama and some democrats are doing with their war opposition. This is electoral gold for them, immoral or not.

    How About Congress Gives Bush Until April 1 2008? | 60 comments (60 topical)

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